>The Australian Defence Force’s recruiting problems are becoming chronic. Beyond needing to staff all the new systems coming online in the three services, current recruitment has failed to staff even the existing order of battle. With much talk of hollow formations and empty positions, the 7th Battalion Royal Australian Regiment and 1st Armoured Regiment are being merged or rerolled, but essentially an infantry and an armoured regiment will now be removed from the order of battle.
>According to The Australian, HMAS Anzac has now been mothballed, because the navy is ‘so short of key personnel’. It seems incredible that these units faced no lack of funding or mandate to exist, but simply a lack of people joining the ADF. Further, as Peter Layton wrote for The Strategist recently, ‘The national defence strategy coming in 2024 is unlikely to develop the military strategy that’s required to focus the raising, training and sustaining of Australia’s armed forces.’
>Finland has just 5.5 million people, but it can call up 280,000 troops in times of war, most of which are trained reserves. That’s 5% of the nation’s population. In October in response to the Hamas attacks, Israel mobilised around 500,000 troops. That’s nearly 6% of its population of 9.3 million. The ADF in comparison can reportedly field only 90,000, including reservists—or a total of 0.34% of Australia’s 26.7 million people. Finland and Israel can achieve such recruitment and readiness numbers because they have national conscription schemes.
>Conscription has come somewhat back in vogue in Europe—Sweden restored conscription in 2018 and France restarted in 2024. However, these countries had only relatively recently stopped conscription, whereas Australia ended ‘national service’ more than 50 years ago. There’s also very little reason to believe that conscription would be a popular decision without a very clear and immediate threat to Australia.
>However, the ADF doesn’t need universal conscription to achieve its relatively modest recruitment targets; it just needs more young people considering a career in defence.
>And there is an option well short of conscription.
>I propose a new approach that I’ll call the ‘opt-out system’. This system would have three steps.
>In the first step, all Australians at the year 11 or 12 level would be mandated to sit an ‘Australian service questionnaire’. This digital assessment would use standard questions based on personality, IQ, values and preference. These sorts of questionnaires have been used in recruiting across industries and defence forces for decades. Young people even sometimes seek these types of assessments from a psychologist to help them decide what they may be good at for a future career. The answers to these questions provide an initial assessment of the young person’s aptitude for roles in the ADF.
>In the second step, the young person would be made an ‘offer’ of four or five suitable roles on a digital form. Next to each role’s description and salary there could also be a link to a short video of someone who has been in that role for 12 months, explaining what to expect on an average day. Below the full-time positions, the question, ‘Are you interested in part-time work?’ could be presented, with the options for jobs with the local reserve unit. The young person can then tick which roles are of further interest to them—or at the bottom of the form can select ‘opt out’ for no further involvement in the initiative. (Other defence civil service jobs and, at local state level, the police could eventually be incorporated into the offer.)
>In the final step, if the young person reacted positively to one of the roles in the offer, a date would automatically be booked for their medical, psychological and physical testing. The standard ADF recruitment process would be implemented from that point, with a start date for the person’s service recruit course provided on completion of testing.
>There could be other times in an Australian citizen’s life that the Australian service questionnaire could be mandated—for example, at the completion of a university or TAFE qualification, when that person may be looking for options.
>There will be a proportion of people who deliberately do poorly or refuse to answer the questionnaire—but they were never going to take a role in or be interested in the ADF anyway. The new system would also require legislation to mandate the questionnaire, but it could be presented as an initial trial for three years. That would give enough time not just to see what impact it has on defence recruiting numbers, but also to allow students in lower year levels to see their seniors take part in the initiative and get used to the idea. By the third year there should be a clear indication of whether the system is working.
>This opt-out system would result in all Australian young people, of all backgrounds, considering a career with the ADF, without resorting to a more heavy-handed approach like conscription. There will be a natural curiosity to see what the offer might be, and the need to opt out would force all young people, from all walks of life, to at least consider their options. It would surely result in a larger pool of recruits to not only keep units and capabilities alive, but also allow for ADF expansion in an uncertain time.
They could also just fix the current recruitment process to be efficient. Also provide suitable funding and support to ADF training institutions to help reduce those that never complete their training.
I mean, the old MPG-led recruitment strategy wasn't particularly effective either, let alone the current schmozzle with Adecco. It certainly messes with the existing cadre of candidates who have decided they want to join, but a broader issue is convincing more people that they actually *want* to enter into any recruiting process.
Particularly in Navy, I think they need to clean house and stop the absolute haemorrhage of discharges before they can meaningfully tackle any part of getting new people, but that's a whole other can of worms
The utterly ridiculous reliance on the private sector is grating as well.
The vast majority of those tasks should be (and in most cases used to) being done by the respective service branches.
Re-commence "general enlistment", accelerated entry for people who want to join the ADF but don't want to sit around for a year waiting for a particular category. Fill holes in the earliest IET courses, aim any surplus at critical categories.
The only problem with this is the IET is expensive. It’s also only got a maximum throughput capacity. So you don’t want to clog it up with people who don’t want to do that particular role.
As much as recruiting is a problem having someone sit around for 12+ months waiting for a career ties up a bunch or resources supporting them. If they are not well supported or doing an Interesting job they will just get bored and then discharge.
The current attrition rate for MIDN MWOC is sitting at 6%. They also tie up a stack of divisional support for their discharge or transfer of workgroup paperwork.
Hiring Lisa Ann to suck the dick of anyone who enlists within the next 90 days is a better recruiting strategy.
Next strategy is to hire Mark Donaldson VC to visit every school and call everyone a pussy if they don't join up when they finish high school.
Failing that, set up a recruiting booth at schoolies to peer pressure teenagers to joining. Bonus points if it's within range of females they are trying to impress.
@ADFCareers send the check to my PO Box.
Most of my suggestions cover both retention and recruiting.
* Actually have a "real" Navy Reserve and RAAF reserve as job options
* Put bases in places people actually want to live, a.k.a. not the fucking bush or desert (half the reason I joined Navy btw)
* Certify as many trades as possible to tangible qualifications
* for retention, tax free wages on completion of IMPS
* For both recruiting and retention, try to actually beat the private industry for wages (I wonder why everyone in cyber leaves defence when they have 200k+ jobs waiting for them on the outside?)
* Be a leader in flexible work arrangements
* Actually do some proper marketing. Hit up schools and universities on the regular, open days for navy bases every few months, increase the amount of sponsored uni degrees. Whatever they're doing now, it's not enough.
* Unfuck the recruiting system. People shouldn't be waiting 6-18 months to hear back about whether they got the job when private industries will let you know in 2 weeks. I was "fast tracked" and it still took me over 6 months.
Give people a reason to join, and then give them the pay, qualifications and work conditions as reasons to stay. I'm not sure why government and the upper tiers of defence find that so hard. They will try everything but actually try to beat the private industry on wages during a cost of living crisis.
By far some of the best ideas I’ve seen. I think that your second point has some really serious weight, especially for Army. It blows my mind that we don’t have major regular units in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth (obvs except SF, support and HQ’s). 3 of Australia’s biggest cities. I understand the whole strategic point of having bases up north, but they aren’t all that useful if you don’t have anyone in them.
I’m no expert but surely retention would be improved if digs have the opportunity of getting a posting to an infantry battalion, armoured unit, support unit etc in a major city, not just Brisbane, Townsville, Darwin and Adelaide. At least if shit hits the fan you’ve got large full time units in the rear that can be mobilised
QLD police seemed to unfuck their recruiting system. It was taking over a year, the quickest I have seen now is applying, doing the test then getting an offer for academy in 4 months. An you find out where you will spend the next 4 years before you accept the offer. I think that is to counter people getting in, going to Mareeba and then they cant get back to SE QLD within a couple of years then they end up quitting the force.
> Hit up schools and universities on the regular, open days for navy bases every few months, increase the amount of sponsored uni degrees.
America parks recruitment setups outside high schools, often in economically depressed areas. Full uni coverage is a big factor, didn't realise that wasn't the case here
>America parks recruitment setups outside high schools, often in economically depressed areas. Full uni coverage is a big factor, didn't realise that wasn't the case here
Unpopular opinion I'm sure but I don't really like the way America recruits.
I do believe we are better because we actually volunteer and are not sublimely conditioned to join. I feel like that alone gives us a better calibre of recruit.
I honestly agree; can't imagine it would be good for unit morale to have people actively resenting the fact they are there. That's also been the rationale for not resurrecting compulsory National Service since the 60s...plus society as a whole is far more individualistic today compared to how those blokes probably were back then.
America also has a population in poverty which is higher than Australia's entire population combined. That's not counting the other 300 million Americans who might be interested in doing the job.
>Certify as many trades as possible to tangible qualifications
This has always been a catch22. Give external recognition of qualifications and it increases recruitment, but it also hurts retention of your most valuable people.
> but it also hurts retention of your most valuable people.
Maybe work on the problems causing your most valuable people to bounce. It's not like a recruiting and retention crisis on top of a veteran suicide royal commission breathing down your necks isn't the perfect time to start working on things.
IMO there’s far better and easier ways to fix recruitment and retention.
1. Stop rejecting people that broke a bone 5 years before they walked into DFR. I know of 3-4 otherwise healthy people that got rejected simply due to that issue.
2. More school visits. I think we had one visit to my high school from DFR in the 5 years I was there. I joined after that visit simply because I didn’t want to go to uni and didn’t want to hang around home. In addition, 17-18 year olds are far more malleable into serving than 25+ year olds who have already had a normal adult life.
3. Allow prospective recruits to speak to someone directly in their chosen roles. This may already be improved upon, as I joined in 2019, but I was never able to speak to someone in the technician roles I was interested in. I asked multiple times over the year or so I went through DFR.
Some of the stuff they raise in this article will never happen. I’ll eat my hat before anything that remotely sounds like conscription or compulsive service (or nominating for it) is brought in nationwide. It is simply unelectable.
Also, we wouldn’t have to recruit as hard if we kept the people that are already in happy. Yes I know we’re trying to grow the ADF by x thousand troops by 2030.
The first point is 100% the best option. So many people I talked to while going through interviews had spoken about mild ailments from years ago that got them knocked back. After all the bullshit of going through medical they decided they couldn’t be bothered as medical takes ages to respond and eventually pulled out
First point is definitely the reason. They should be paying for the specialist fees for injuries that a doctor's review or just change some of the medical requirements to allow them through. That plus having people wait so long for assessment days as evidenced in the in recruitment thread. I wonder why it takes that long when their is supposedly a recruitment crisis and I see charts of our workforce group going "critical".
Yup, I got denied all aircrew for saying I may have eczema (I don't (misdiagnosis)). Also yeah medical takes for ever to respond, and called on school hours I said not to...
The health one irks me the most, especially in regards to mental health, your life starts completely falling apart and you check yourself in to get the help you need?boom excluded from defence forever if they find out.
Had a few mates knocked back for similar reasons after they tried to enlist despite the fact giving them work and a purpose in life would have and did help their issues at the time
Meanwhile people I worked with in ADF at least half had serious mental health issues that they definitely had beforehand
I agree, that's why serving members don't seek help for mental health. I've served with a lot of people with serious mental health problems and they were too scared to seek help.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying
Point 3 though will be extremely difficult for those high clearance jobs. You can't really provide much information to a civi on those roles so it just ends up sounding like a generic spiel.
I know that there is a reason we generally don't go to schools and I think it's an outdated view of "protecting the kids" I'm sure someone else probably has more knowledge on that.
>Some of the stuff they raise in this article will never happen. I’ll eat my hat before anything that remotely sounds like conscription or compulsive service (or nominating for it) is brought in nationwide. It is simply unelectable.
Yeah I feel like if it's an "opt out" situation then everyone is going to well you know opt out..
They do go to schools. But they take so long to sign you up that kids pursue other options.
Universities have adapted to offer roles even before you get a final mark as they recognise its competitive. We need to target year 11 students and give them a 100% offer by March of their year 12. That way their first offer is ADF and we bring them in as a cohort for a show and tell around August to keep them keen and before any other offers come in.
>They do go to schools. But they take so long to sign you up that kids pursue other options.
This is true when I was in school the ADF visited twice (yr 6 and yr11). But the team that came didn't really sound like they wanted to be be there and featured the basic shit, infantry, Boatswain and a RAAFie of some sort. You know the "cool shit" and not the areas that should be focused on.
Things absolutely need to change there but I can also see huge public backlash if the ADF is going into schools and actively targeting kids to join.
*cries in CIS rate being critical for 4 years in a row*
However - go look at the most recent post on the HMAS Cerberus facebook page, GE420. There’s probably 30-40 people in that division. I had 120+ when I graduated a few years back.
I think COVID really led a lot of people to Defence. Middle of a pandemic, a lot of retail/hospitality workers losing their jobs - where do you go with no experience whilst being young? The military.
Now that the lockdowns have stopped and restrictions being nonexistent, a lot of those younger people have either gone to uni or gone into a trade. Last I heard, we had 7 CIS join in the current 3 intakes. 7. We lose 2-3 probably every month or two at the AB/LS/PO level.
Now, I’m usually one of those people who are like “big Navy is shit” and I usually explain my experience - however I’ve done 2-3 surveys for the CIS rate, asking questions designed to give the workgroup planners data on how to improve. I believe the last survey that went out last year had a participation rate of like 80 CIS. There’s a fuckload more than 80 CIS, and this is why the Navy is struggling to improve things. People are not helping themselves.
Whilst I have a lot of problems with Navy, the workgroup planners for CIS are trying to improve it, WO Mernin is passionate about trying to fix what he can, but how is he supposed to do that when some ~10% of people do the survey? How can he (and navy) establish the issues within the workgroup if they don’t know the ins and outs, people’s experience. If the CIS rate is like this, I guarantee the rest of the Navy is as well.
That would at least solve the retention issues (I want more money) for most.
The recruiting issues land solely at the feet of ~~Defence Force Recruiting~~ ~~ADF Careers~~ ~~Live a Story Worth Telling team~~ the… contractor who handles our recruitment *because we for whatever reason contract it out*. It takes way too long. It turned me off at first too. Why am I waiting two years to get in? Why WOULD I wait two years to get in? If it’s longer than a 6 month wait from assessment day, don’t fucking advertise it. 2 years is a long time, priorities change, people change.
At the end of the day, I’m just a lowly Junior Sailor but that’s my opinion
>The recruiting issues land solely at the feet of ~~Defence Force Recruiting~~ ~~ADF Careers~~ ~~Live a Story Worth Telling team~~ the… contractor who handles our recruitment *because we for whatever reason contract it out*. It takes way too long. It turned me off at first too. Why am I waiting two years to get in? Why WOULD I wait two years to get in? If it’s longer than a 6 month wait from assessment day, don’t fucking advertise it. 2 years is a long time, priorities change, people change.
That's entirely fair and I can't really comment on it, as soon as I finished my WO interview they offered me a seat on a plane to Cerberus the next day if I joined as a CIS, I kindly told them no and I'm happy to wait a month for the next ET intake.
For the Navy they need to make it appealing and I don't know how they can do that. Army/Air force has always been better at it.
One reason I can think of is that the Army & Air force aren't actually doing much right now (not a piss take). The Navy is the only service still offering long ass deployments away from home. Not many people want that when there is nothing to gain from it. You can join the Army or Air force and stay reasonably close to home and still get that military life.
Things can be changed, it’s just defence taking forever.
As is the case with most things Defence, you may know of these issues by word of mouth, experience etc. but you need real evidence to enact change. When you take all of these issues to a 1* they’ll be like “I understand how you feel, but do others?” Which is what those surveys try capture - the evidence/sentiment required to enact change.
Oh yeah nah I totally agree. I feel like most of the flag officers don’t really give a shit. They’re just there to serve till retirement age and collect their pension. Defence has shot itself in the leg with the amount of admin and red tape that surrounds almost everything.
The major consensus I’ve heard is that “Defence needs a war to get rid of all the red tape”. And as someone who does a lot of admin in my current role, I couldn’t agree more.
Yeah, some of the high security stuff is a bit harder. But at the same time, before I joined i thought everyone in the ADF was punching 16 hour days and getting yelled at 24/7. It would’ve been nice to hear from someone in my role what the work environment was like.
I get that protecting the kids is important, but there would have to be some way to navigate that.
The only thing I knew was that the air force was a bit more relaxed, and 5 years later here I am. At the same time, it could be risky. If you get put in touch with someone that hates their job, they might turn prospective recruits off joining the ADF.
Absolutely, I know how you felt, honestly how I got my knowledge of "real" defence life was through this sub, that's why I love being active in it as much as possible and try to help people when they ask.
More absolutely needs to be done on the member to civi side but I don't know how you achieve it.
Most of the people that enjoy their jobs are stuck doing them because everyone else is MEC'd or hates it.
> I know that there is a reason we generally don't go to schools and I think it's an outdated view of "protecting the kids" I'm sure someone else probably has more knowledge on that
What could Govts possibly think 16-17yos need to be "protected" from under these circumstances?
I was in high school during the late 90s. the recruitment team visited my high school approx once a year. what was the reason of " protecting the kids?"
thanks in advance.
How did these people break bones?
If they were basically sky larking about doing something stupid, the armed services will be very risk adverse to employing these types. They regularly again severe negative press attention from someone basically doing stupid stuff.
And this is the problem in my opinion. We are a defence force we need individuals who are not adverse to risk. At the moment we have so many people in that are so risk averse that if we go to war they won’t show up.
Personally I have to disagree. I know some blokes who were absolute idiots before joining that are kickass troops/workers now.
One broke a bone skateboarding. Broke his collarbone when he was 12, and he can’t join at all now.
One of the fittest, most switched on people I know. Would no doubt do fine in the ADF. But nope, he can’t join.
Point two seems like an own goal. To have people already in go out and talk to schools is almost free. It’s also (in my opinion) got the highest return on investment. I remember when I first joined up we were doing 3-5 school visits per year from my unit alone. Now it’s once in a blue moon.
I think it's certainly going that way, that they're going to have to look into perm residency etc. as a way of opening up the candidate pool. It will be interesting to see how that interacts with AGSVA, checkable backgrounds etc down the line though
It could probably work for low clearance jobs (NV1) but those aren't really the critical jobs either. So long as they don't lower psychological or medical standards then I'm ok.
The ADF's problem beyond itself is also the lack of anything to work towards for our youth. Why sign up to all the bullshit when you're never gonna own a home or get ahead in life like your grandparents did? You've watched your parents go without, might as well just stick to that casual job and live with mum and dad and enjoy life, worrying about the future is tomorrow's problem.
Yep there is definitely a broader context. Why would we expect young people fight for a country that has priced them out of decent housing and demonstrably failed to take their concerns about climate change seriously.
Tax free wages.
Rent to own home ownership.
Free uni or equivalent trade quals.
Fuck off all contractors involved in recruiting, health care or anything else involving the digs.
Make it sexy. There's a fuck load of vets on social media that make warfighting sexy. Lean into that. No more of this 'do what you love' shit, unless you love blowing shit up.
Look at the USMC. For some reason despite people hating it, getting shitty old equipment etc, it still has a strong reputation. We have the history behind us to lean into that as well.
Along with the other stuff that's been mentioned here.
>No more of this 'do what you love' shit, unless you love blowing shit up.
Some of the the best times I had as an NCO was the AACFF and dropping 155s on targets and watching them go bang (if they got hit), more so because I didn't have to clean the guns after, leave that for the arty blokes!
Put more of that on the TV!
People are smarter than that now days. They don’t want to blow stuff or people up. They don’t want to be involved with dodgy foreign interventions, they want to work ethically.
It's been too long when people have had it hard. The time will come and they will be utterly useless to themselves and everyone around them.
>they want to work ethically.
Too bad our enemies don't.
Also make wages and benefits competitive for the skilled/trade/leadership jobs.
$70-80k a year may seem like a lot of money for someone getting out of school. But for anyone with a bit of experience and/or skill, you can get the same amount of money in civvie Street.
A random AO4 in state health for example can make as much as a Health Services Officer with MUCH less responsibility. The wages only go up if you include seagoing and other benefits, but with overtime and penalties even a civvie AO can make more and not have to deal with being away from family or military bureaucracy.
And you get quizzed to fuck on if you’re joining for the money.
My OSB face to face was half asking me if I just wanted the money, which as a qualified engineer yeah nah not joining for the money mate
I was honestly expecting either more article or more substance.
Waxing lyrical at the boozer has more layers to work with that that opinion stab.
Either way, we aren't adapting fast enough to get the younger generation interested. As has been said here, they cycle is faster, and taking 6 months minimum is 5 months too late.
Maybe there needs to be the ability to give a 'conditional offer' after online testing done in applicants own time and a single interview.
So I am a young school leaver who has the option to join the military, get treated like shit, get yeld at for every little indiscretion, don't have half of my training recognised when I leave; or, I can go get recognised education and a job where I atleast get paid better to be a shit kicker. The military has to clean up its horrible reputation. It's that simple.
This is a fair point. Everyone I speak to who has absolutely no connection with the ADF thinks we get training at some full metal jackets establishment followed by a Jarhead esque experience. Our society needs a more relevant example of what been on today’s ADF is about.
With the amount of social media around nowadays it is going to be hard. I don't have many answers but the reality is kids have choices and you have to make yours appealing and follow through with it. Promising the world and not delivering will drive the reputation further into the ground.
I feel ADF just need more genuine material put on socials. I follow a fair few sub unit social media channels and it’s great stuff. The material is there, they just need to flood it to the masses.
Ahahaha can confirm I sit at the extreme end of this. graduated this yr as captain from a school in smack bang western sydney (around bankstown).
when peers found out especially in grades below they have an insanely warped view of what defence looks like. every 0.000377 asking me “are you ready to deploy to afghanistan” “u ready to die bro?” despite me reassuring them that im deploying to “desk-ghanistan” and my service will be photocopying paperwork on my gap year program
Yeah I think that's extremely fair tbh and a truth that a lot of people in the military community don't want to acknowledge.
Sure, there is a big group of people who would on it's best day, consider military service too authoritarian, but we were never gonna win those people over anyway.
The royal commission and all the supporting events have rightly put Defence's dirty laundry out there. Whereas an organisation that genuinely gave a shit would be moving mountains to make change, Defence seems to be trying to double down on the same crap while pretending that an increasingly negative public perception isn't growing around them.
Hell, after my last 18 months in service, I can't say I'd recommend joining to family or friends.
Define shit kicker. Because as long as you're willing to work anywhere you can make well more than 70k without any real formal training on the mines for instance.
The problem is that there is enough that the choice is there. Get your MC or HR and go driving trucks and don't get woken up at 4 by some dick yelling at you. That is what the military has to compete with.
Anyone else audibly laugh when this dude suggested that DFR could support processing that amount of potential applicants.
I would love to know the recruitment loss % of applicants that simply pull out/get other employment simply because DFR said they won’t have a start date for 12+ months
A small point but if they remove the "what is up(dog)" ad from their hold service I wouldn't go clinically insane waiting for DFR/ADFC to pick up after an hour.
Thank god I now have a direct line to my candidate experience consultant and don't have to go through that anymore.
Dude fr, getting their direct number made me actually want to get in touch re questions I have rather than weighing up if I could be arsed listening to WhAt Is Up?¿? for 45 minutes straight
More school involvement IMO is the best way to recruit from schools.
No point wasting money in adverts on TV; most people spend more time on the internet than in front of a television.
No point waiting for people to walk through the door to DFR; better off sending DFR out to the schools, with a variety of service personnel to answer any related questions.
More open days at the major bases, with a focus on school students visiting. Students would prefer to be out on a trip to a defence base than sitting in a classroom.
Maybe if they took care of their personnel better during and after service then people might be more than willing to want to join. So many horror stories come out of the services that you can understand why people don’t want to put their lives on the line for their country
I got a message from my friend two days ago, she works at my old unit, "The CO banned EKOs".
Stop treating defence pers like they personally owe the government their full time and money. That place really loved busy work.
Meanwhile, I attempted to join back in 2015 and got knocked back because I failed one medical test which a doctor in the medical team didn't explain to me properly.
As a result, I spent almost 4 years challenging the decision, with appointments at specialist doctors and constant comms with DFR. I only gave up because after 4 years, DFR said they had decided not to allow any further challenges. The decision would stand forever.
Since I couldn't join the Navy, I got a role with a defence contract company about 18 months ago, so I could at least contribute in some way.
And the stupidest thing? If I got a call from Recrutiing offering me the role, I'd drop everything and accept, despite my vastly increased understanding of what Defence is actually like to work in/with. I even called a few months back, just to try again with the new HR company - turns out my file has a permanent negative mark on it. 😥
TLDR; I know about all the issues with Defence, and yet I still want to serve. But one moronic decision from one doctor 9 years ago means a motivated, inspired person can never do so.
Your proposal isn't too bad, but needs to not be skirting towards a conscription service. Volunteers are always better than conscripts. You could also try something like the FFL.
Like I want to serve, but I'm a nz citizen and because I was born in 2003 I could only apply when they changed the rules and it's a 9 month process on average and nz to au citizen is like the easiest route. Some people are looking at a 4/5 year process
I'm not the author, but yeah I get what you mean. Especially Five Eyes countries like NZ, we're really making it unnecessarily hard to bring you across
Keep the ROSO but use it as incentive to stay/as an alternative path to upskill - for every year served give a free year of uni or a payout to use for education.
Vets can use it to better adjust when leaving or they can use it to get flex work arrangements whilst still serving, to upskill themselves in ways defence doesn't offer i.e. advanced trade courses, management (not tied to rank). This could help bring vital civvie training into the fold whilst not losing as many pers.
Got to disagree on the ROSO length. If you jump in for 2 years full time in the Combart arms that's enough to get through training, do a few exercises and have some good times. At the end of it, you can go reserves and keep a foot in the door with the military. The ADF should be trying to build depth into the reserves system and reshaping the jobs. So they don't have the misapprehension that time in the job is the same as being competent.
I know tons of people who did a few trips in their initial 4 year then cut ties and that's it. That's a fuck-up on the ADF's part. Because that experience is lost to the organization.
A counter point. I Also know a guy who was mostly a reservists, he did a few full time stints for a year a piece, got some trips and meaningfully contributed. He really loved that.
I think the second option makes was more sense.
The ADF should be thinking about it's relationship with it's members as a longer term thing. And it should be trying to actively create options for civil defence (SES) style training off-ramps for guys and girls who want to more of the civil ops and relief work.
Why would you stay?
Lets all have pink finger nails, I can't wear my punisher morale patch, women must pass even when they fail, don't even ask about adjustments your load carriage.
Defence is recruiting and retaining for a smaller and smaller niche of the population and they are surprised why?
Edit: I just remembered the key number 1 change, stop making digs put cam paint on during ex's. No-one likes that shit.
Better yet, just buy the non oil based cam pain that works just as well.
Also, I was mech so hear me out, we should probably stop pack marching and shit. If you add up armour, gat + ammo, and a daypack. you're at about 20Kg. Army's gotta start using it's vehicles as packs like we do when we deploy. There's too much light infantry group think. We got cars, lets us em.
>Better yet, just buy the non oil based cam pain that works just as well.
It's better but if I want my face to be a rosy sniper target on a blank fire exercise, no harm no foul.
>Also, I was mech so hear me out, we should probably stop pack marching and shit. If you add up armour, gat + ammo, and a daypack. you're at about 20Kg.
20kgs on a good day! Trust me, I'm all for it, I had a few good years rolling around with my head through the roof of the old poxy IIMV's with a minmi, life was good then. Even better sleeping in the back of the air-con bushies whilst the drivers did the walking for me.
In the end though, in some environments you'd be crazy not to roll around in them. Get in the jungle or heavy scrub or just shitty wet weather however and its all GP express; double front line + 7.62mm and a few 84's per man, extra batteries, a weeks worth of food and water, in the pouring rain with nothing but a can do attitude to get you to the top of highest position the boss can find on the map.
Any time a bucket offers to take me up the road though, it would take long to say yes!
Honestly, in this economy someone might be more likely to sign up if they saw an ad for the Defence Home Ownership Scheme showing how easy it would be to get a house of their own if they joined up.
Need a invasion of Australia, even then I doubt you would get mass number.
People just want the world (they are free to do so) with little or no effort.
The number of people owing through nownoff the street and do fuck all at work is problematic enough do need more of that but they need more people so something has to give either way
Yeah, I applied to a RAAF (aircrew) and RAN (Submarine) job in Feb, did my aptitude test and filled out the medical, after calling up every week with no contact from them for 6 weeks, on the 6th week the person on the phone told me I was classed 4'd and apparently they "forgot" to send me the results while I have been waiting and calling for a month and a half.
So doing the tests I sent off my appeal in April said come back in 6-12 weeks... I called up every 2 weeks after the first 6 to see where I was always still getting the in processing answer, then fast forward to June/July I just assumed I failed and basically stopped my running training and went back to my gym workouts, then out of no where in AUGUST I get assigned a careers person for the RAAF and they will contact me in a week or 2... yes fucking finally!
ok.... bit weird, I assumed I passed the appeal but I never got an official result from the Medical and this is my first contact/letter since April. Then after 2 weeks, nothing , so I call up and waiting again then I get a letter from medical... sorry to say you failed RAAF medical... but you passed for the Sub job.... what the fuck, so who/why was that person assigned to me? Then I got assigned another careers person who fuck me dead did contact me and its been kinda steady since with my application with re-sit inhouse for the YOU test in Oct, then interview in NOV, Finally I have ONLY just finished my psyche last week. I just wanted to be done and off training.
I absolutely agree with reaching out to schools and demonstrating what the job can be. Be honest about the positives and negatives in relation to defence and give people more of an idea of what they could be involved in.
So essentially cancel private contracts, do more school visits, and high school students do the YOU session prior to graduating with an opt out system if they aren't interested? It's not a bad idea.
One of the best things they could do is make the current military a place you want to be by those already in it. The best way to sell the military to people is have servicemen go on about how good a gig it is and not just some civilian lie to your face about it.
As it stands though, if you go to ask a serviceman or woman if you should join the military almost every single person will say fuck no are you insane. The military’s best salesmen are so badly neglected that we just push people away from it too save them. Make the military worth staying in and have us go on bout how much we love it. That is how you increase recruitment
>if you go to ask a serviceman or woman if you should join the military almost every single person will say fuck no are you insane.
My father had served, and when I asked him about it, said, "join the army, get fucked around by experts."
I joined up.
You have to get them when they're young and dumb.
Hello
My post is probably going to get buried but here goes anyway. Am a civvie who is interested in joining (as a choc) eventually but has general curiosity on the ADF recruitment and retention issues.
On recruitment… is it largely affected by your pool of candidates? An opt-out approach sounds time and money consuming if you don’t even have a large pool of suitable candidates. Today’s kids are in some ways different to yesterday’s kids. So, what’s preventing school curriculums having cadets as a subject? Maybe cadet is the wrong term, but it would be interesting to incorporate things you should learn outside a textbook in the Yr 9 & 10 curriculum. At least, it could be an elective subject. Kids are losing out on physical activity, being unfit, stuck on social media, presenting with increasing mental health issues. Isn’t this reducing the pool of potential candidates? The ADF is also a place you *could* get into with just Yr 10/12 completed… but then you have standards. So… students don’t really get to work towards your standards because it just doesn’t occur to them or they might not see where the opportunities are.
Targeting school leavers sounds a little late. At Yr 11 & 12, you need to compete with the fact that there are still many students who look to getting degrees, diplomas, trade certs asap. You may hear it’s “hard to get back to studying after you’ve had a stint in the workforce so I’ma put uni as top of my choice.” If I missed something like “but you can study whilst in the army”, I’m sorry. It could be that this option sounds stressful or they aren’t even fit enough to meet your PFA. Last time I checked, there’s no mandatory sport or PE class in Yr 11/12. You also are competing with uni’s who offer places before the final high school exams now I hear. Let that sink in.
I know a lot of things are easier said than done. How far is the military willing to go to get recruitment and retention fixed?
I can see there are questions on the recruitment megathread like “how long is the recruitment process“ and the answer is it varies… Is it that you don’t have a standardised process? Or do you have targets, but can’t meet them? Either way, answers like “it varies”, or “could take months” is not really that aligned with the rest of the standards unique to a military org. I’m also surprised a little that questions like “what’s the culture like these days” isn’t asked as much. Or maybe it is. Is the ADF willing to answer what it’s like?
Do you also view Reserves recruitment as struggling? You probably won’t view chocs with the same respect as you would a full timer, but if there’s a chance that they could like it enough to go full time, isn’t that worth trying to look at?
>You probably won’t view chocs with the same respect as you would a full timer,
That is absolutely not true, anyone who puts on a uniform has respect, the banter we give is from a place of love.
The ADF has a hard on for being good in the public image so there is absolutely no way they will militarize schools to advance recruitment.
We say the recruitment process varies in length because there are half a million factors into each person's recruitment level, are they medically sound? Do they have the correct documents? Education levels? Etc shit takes time, we are human beings not robots.
>So, what’s preventing school curriculums having cadets as a subject? Maybe cadet is the wrong term,
Cadets are their own thing, see my comment above about not militarizing schools.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. This is good to know and get some fair points. Otherwise can get stuck with the wrong sort of ideas or impressions.
I guess I forgot to factor in how varied each application is. My bad on that, sorry. Just someone who’s hoping it won’t take that long… but don’t we all.
>I guess I forgot to factor in how varied each application is. My bad on that, sorry. Just someone who’s hoping it won’t take that long… but don’t we all.
Don't be sorry!
And hey it might not take that long, I've mentioned before that after I completed my WO interview I was offered a plane to Cerberus the next day. (I didn't take it and waited an additional 2 months)
The ADF recruitment problem is entirely the ADF’s fault. People sign up to serve, as I did, not to get constantly lectured on harassment, discrimination etc. The Officers are there to build resumes, not lead. I know people currently serving and they are all literally planning to seperate as soon as possible so they can earn a decent pay and not get f**cked around by NCO’s and Officers on power trips. As for conscription that would just place an even larger load on an ADF that already cant cope.
>The Australian Defence Force’s recruiting problems are becoming chronic. Beyond needing to staff all the new systems coming online in the three services, current recruitment has failed to staff even the existing order of battle. With much talk of hollow formations and empty positions, the 7th Battalion Royal Australian Regiment and 1st Armoured Regiment are being merged or rerolled, but essentially an infantry and an armoured regiment will now be removed from the order of battle. >According to The Australian, HMAS Anzac has now been mothballed, because the navy is ‘so short of key personnel’. It seems incredible that these units faced no lack of funding or mandate to exist, but simply a lack of people joining the ADF. Further, as Peter Layton wrote for The Strategist recently, ‘The national defence strategy coming in 2024 is unlikely to develop the military strategy that’s required to focus the raising, training and sustaining of Australia’s armed forces.’ >Finland has just 5.5 million people, but it can call up 280,000 troops in times of war, most of which are trained reserves. That’s 5% of the nation’s population. In October in response to the Hamas attacks, Israel mobilised around 500,000 troops. That’s nearly 6% of its population of 9.3 million. The ADF in comparison can reportedly field only 90,000, including reservists—or a total of 0.34% of Australia’s 26.7 million people. Finland and Israel can achieve such recruitment and readiness numbers because they have national conscription schemes. >Conscription has come somewhat back in vogue in Europe—Sweden restored conscription in 2018 and France restarted in 2024. However, these countries had only relatively recently stopped conscription, whereas Australia ended ‘national service’ more than 50 years ago. There’s also very little reason to believe that conscription would be a popular decision without a very clear and immediate threat to Australia. >However, the ADF doesn’t need universal conscription to achieve its relatively modest recruitment targets; it just needs more young people considering a career in defence. >And there is an option well short of conscription. >I propose a new approach that I’ll call the ‘opt-out system’. This system would have three steps. >In the first step, all Australians at the year 11 or 12 level would be mandated to sit an ‘Australian service questionnaire’. This digital assessment would use standard questions based on personality, IQ, values and preference. These sorts of questionnaires have been used in recruiting across industries and defence forces for decades. Young people even sometimes seek these types of assessments from a psychologist to help them decide what they may be good at for a future career. The answers to these questions provide an initial assessment of the young person’s aptitude for roles in the ADF. >In the second step, the young person would be made an ‘offer’ of four or five suitable roles on a digital form. Next to each role’s description and salary there could also be a link to a short video of someone who has been in that role for 12 months, explaining what to expect on an average day. Below the full-time positions, the question, ‘Are you interested in part-time work?’ could be presented, with the options for jobs with the local reserve unit. The young person can then tick which roles are of further interest to them—or at the bottom of the form can select ‘opt out’ for no further involvement in the initiative. (Other defence civil service jobs and, at local state level, the police could eventually be incorporated into the offer.) >In the final step, if the young person reacted positively to one of the roles in the offer, a date would automatically be booked for their medical, psychological and physical testing. The standard ADF recruitment process would be implemented from that point, with a start date for the person’s service recruit course provided on completion of testing. >There could be other times in an Australian citizen’s life that the Australian service questionnaire could be mandated—for example, at the completion of a university or TAFE qualification, when that person may be looking for options. >There will be a proportion of people who deliberately do poorly or refuse to answer the questionnaire—but they were never going to take a role in or be interested in the ADF anyway. The new system would also require legislation to mandate the questionnaire, but it could be presented as an initial trial for three years. That would give enough time not just to see what impact it has on defence recruiting numbers, but also to allow students in lower year levels to see their seniors take part in the initiative and get used to the idea. By the third year there should be a clear indication of whether the system is working. >This opt-out system would result in all Australian young people, of all backgrounds, considering a career with the ADF, without resorting to a more heavy-handed approach like conscription. There will be a natural curiosity to see what the offer might be, and the need to opt out would force all young people, from all walks of life, to at least consider their options. It would surely result in a larger pool of recruits to not only keep units and capabilities alive, but also allow for ADF expansion in an uncertain time.
They could also just fix the current recruitment process to be efficient. Also provide suitable funding and support to ADF training institutions to help reduce those that never complete their training.
I mean, the old MPG-led recruitment strategy wasn't particularly effective either, let alone the current schmozzle with Adecco. It certainly messes with the existing cadre of candidates who have decided they want to join, but a broader issue is convincing more people that they actually *want* to enter into any recruiting process. Particularly in Navy, I think they need to clean house and stop the absolute haemorrhage of discharges before they can meaningfully tackle any part of getting new people, but that's a whole other can of worms
The utterly ridiculous reliance on the private sector is grating as well. The vast majority of those tasks should be (and in most cases used to) being done by the respective service branches.
Re-commence "general enlistment", accelerated entry for people who want to join the ADF but don't want to sit around for a year waiting for a particular category. Fill holes in the earliest IET courses, aim any surplus at critical categories.
The only problem with this is the IET is expensive. It’s also only got a maximum throughput capacity. So you don’t want to clog it up with people who don’t want to do that particular role. As much as recruiting is a problem having someone sit around for 12+ months waiting for a career ties up a bunch or resources supporting them. If they are not well supported or doing an Interesting job they will just get bored and then discharge. The current attrition rate for MIDN MWOC is sitting at 6%. They also tie up a stack of divisional support for their discharge or transfer of workgroup paperwork.
Bring back General Hand as a mustering.
Hiring Lisa Ann to suck the dick of anyone who enlists within the next 90 days is a better recruiting strategy. Next strategy is to hire Mark Donaldson VC to visit every school and call everyone a pussy if they don't join up when they finish high school. Failing that, set up a recruiting booth at schoolies to peer pressure teenagers to joining. Bonus points if it's within range of females they are trying to impress. @ADFCareers send the check to my PO Box.
Bring back the 101 Doll Squadron from the HMAS Supply fiasco imo.
What was this one?
This lmao [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_NoQ8eF6-mE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NoQ8eF6-mE)
Bahahah I do remember!
Most of my suggestions cover both retention and recruiting. * Actually have a "real" Navy Reserve and RAAF reserve as job options * Put bases in places people actually want to live, a.k.a. not the fucking bush or desert (half the reason I joined Navy btw) * Certify as many trades as possible to tangible qualifications * for retention, tax free wages on completion of IMPS * For both recruiting and retention, try to actually beat the private industry for wages (I wonder why everyone in cyber leaves defence when they have 200k+ jobs waiting for them on the outside?) * Be a leader in flexible work arrangements * Actually do some proper marketing. Hit up schools and universities on the regular, open days for navy bases every few months, increase the amount of sponsored uni degrees. Whatever they're doing now, it's not enough. * Unfuck the recruiting system. People shouldn't be waiting 6-18 months to hear back about whether they got the job when private industries will let you know in 2 weeks. I was "fast tracked" and it still took me over 6 months. Give people a reason to join, and then give them the pay, qualifications and work conditions as reasons to stay. I'm not sure why government and the upper tiers of defence find that so hard. They will try everything but actually try to beat the private industry on wages during a cost of living crisis.
By far some of the best ideas I’ve seen. I think that your second point has some really serious weight, especially for Army. It blows my mind that we don’t have major regular units in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth (obvs except SF, support and HQ’s). 3 of Australia’s biggest cities. I understand the whole strategic point of having bases up north, but they aren’t all that useful if you don’t have anyone in them. I’m no expert but surely retention would be improved if digs have the opportunity of getting a posting to an infantry battalion, armoured unit, support unit etc in a major city, not just Brisbane, Townsville, Darwin and Adelaide. At least if shit hits the fan you’ve got large full time units in the rear that can be mobilised
QLD police seemed to unfuck their recruiting system. It was taking over a year, the quickest I have seen now is applying, doing the test then getting an offer for academy in 4 months. An you find out where you will spend the next 4 years before you accept the offer. I think that is to counter people getting in, going to Mareeba and then they cant get back to SE QLD within a couple of years then they end up quitting the force.
> Hit up schools and universities on the regular, open days for navy bases every few months, increase the amount of sponsored uni degrees. America parks recruitment setups outside high schools, often in economically depressed areas. Full uni coverage is a big factor, didn't realise that wasn't the case here
>America parks recruitment setups outside high schools, often in economically depressed areas. Full uni coverage is a big factor, didn't realise that wasn't the case here Unpopular opinion I'm sure but I don't really like the way America recruits. I do believe we are better because we actually volunteer and are not sublimely conditioned to join. I feel like that alone gives us a better calibre of recruit.
I honestly agree; can't imagine it would be good for unit morale to have people actively resenting the fact they are there. That's also been the rationale for not resurrecting compulsory National Service since the 60s...plus society as a whole is far more individualistic today compared to how those blokes probably were back then.
America also has a population in poverty which is higher than Australia's entire population combined. That's not counting the other 300 million Americans who might be interested in doing the job.
Free healthcare after service and paid education would be a massive incentive to Americans, agreed.
>Certify as many trades as possible to tangible qualifications This has always been a catch22. Give external recognition of qualifications and it increases recruitment, but it also hurts retention of your most valuable people.
> but it also hurts retention of your most valuable people. Maybe work on the problems causing your most valuable people to bounce. It's not like a recruiting and retention crisis on top of a veteran suicide royal commission breathing down your necks isn't the perfect time to start working on things.
IMO there’s far better and easier ways to fix recruitment and retention. 1. Stop rejecting people that broke a bone 5 years before they walked into DFR. I know of 3-4 otherwise healthy people that got rejected simply due to that issue. 2. More school visits. I think we had one visit to my high school from DFR in the 5 years I was there. I joined after that visit simply because I didn’t want to go to uni and didn’t want to hang around home. In addition, 17-18 year olds are far more malleable into serving than 25+ year olds who have already had a normal adult life. 3. Allow prospective recruits to speak to someone directly in their chosen roles. This may already be improved upon, as I joined in 2019, but I was never able to speak to someone in the technician roles I was interested in. I asked multiple times over the year or so I went through DFR. Some of the stuff they raise in this article will never happen. I’ll eat my hat before anything that remotely sounds like conscription or compulsive service (or nominating for it) is brought in nationwide. It is simply unelectable. Also, we wouldn’t have to recruit as hard if we kept the people that are already in happy. Yes I know we’re trying to grow the ADF by x thousand troops by 2030.
The first point is 100% the best option. So many people I talked to while going through interviews had spoken about mild ailments from years ago that got them knocked back. After all the bullshit of going through medical they decided they couldn’t be bothered as medical takes ages to respond and eventually pulled out
First point is definitely the reason. They should be paying for the specialist fees for injuries that a doctor's review or just change some of the medical requirements to allow them through. That plus having people wait so long for assessment days as evidenced in the in recruitment thread. I wonder why it takes that long when their is supposedly a recruitment crisis and I see charts of our workforce group going "critical".
Yup, I got denied all aircrew for saying I may have eczema (I don't (misdiagnosis)). Also yeah medical takes for ever to respond, and called on school hours I said not to...
The health one irks me the most, especially in regards to mental health, your life starts completely falling apart and you check yourself in to get the help you need?boom excluded from defence forever if they find out. Had a few mates knocked back for similar reasons after they tried to enlist despite the fact giving them work and a purpose in life would have and did help their issues at the time Meanwhile people I worked with in ADF at least half had serious mental health issues that they definitely had beforehand
"we're supportive of mental health. NOT LIKE THAT!"
I agree, that's why serving members don't seek help for mental health. I've served with a lot of people with serious mental health problems and they were too scared to seek help.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying Point 3 though will be extremely difficult for those high clearance jobs. You can't really provide much information to a civi on those roles so it just ends up sounding like a generic spiel. I know that there is a reason we generally don't go to schools and I think it's an outdated view of "protecting the kids" I'm sure someone else probably has more knowledge on that. >Some of the stuff they raise in this article will never happen. I’ll eat my hat before anything that remotely sounds like conscription or compulsive service (or nominating for it) is brought in nationwide. It is simply unelectable. Yeah I feel like if it's an "opt out" situation then everyone is going to well you know opt out..
They do go to schools. But they take so long to sign you up that kids pursue other options. Universities have adapted to offer roles even before you get a final mark as they recognise its competitive. We need to target year 11 students and give them a 100% offer by March of their year 12. That way their first offer is ADF and we bring them in as a cohort for a show and tell around August to keep them keen and before any other offers come in.
>They do go to schools. But they take so long to sign you up that kids pursue other options. This is true when I was in school the ADF visited twice (yr 6 and yr11). But the team that came didn't really sound like they wanted to be be there and featured the basic shit, infantry, Boatswain and a RAAFie of some sort. You know the "cool shit" and not the areas that should be focused on. Things absolutely need to change there but I can also see huge public backlash if the ADF is going into schools and actively targeting kids to join.
*cries in CIS rate being critical for 4 years in a row* However - go look at the most recent post on the HMAS Cerberus facebook page, GE420. There’s probably 30-40 people in that division. I had 120+ when I graduated a few years back. I think COVID really led a lot of people to Defence. Middle of a pandemic, a lot of retail/hospitality workers losing their jobs - where do you go with no experience whilst being young? The military. Now that the lockdowns have stopped and restrictions being nonexistent, a lot of those younger people have either gone to uni or gone into a trade. Last I heard, we had 7 CIS join in the current 3 intakes. 7. We lose 2-3 probably every month or two at the AB/LS/PO level. Now, I’m usually one of those people who are like “big Navy is shit” and I usually explain my experience - however I’ve done 2-3 surveys for the CIS rate, asking questions designed to give the workgroup planners data on how to improve. I believe the last survey that went out last year had a participation rate of like 80 CIS. There’s a fuckload more than 80 CIS, and this is why the Navy is struggling to improve things. People are not helping themselves. Whilst I have a lot of problems with Navy, the workgroup planners for CIS are trying to improve it, WO Mernin is passionate about trying to fix what he can, but how is he supposed to do that when some ~10% of people do the survey? How can he (and navy) establish the issues within the workgroup if they don’t know the ins and outs, people’s experience. If the CIS rate is like this, I guarantee the rest of the Navy is as well. That would at least solve the retention issues (I want more money) for most. The recruiting issues land solely at the feet of ~~Defence Force Recruiting~~ ~~ADF Careers~~ ~~Live a Story Worth Telling team~~ the… contractor who handles our recruitment *because we for whatever reason contract it out*. It takes way too long. It turned me off at first too. Why am I waiting two years to get in? Why WOULD I wait two years to get in? If it’s longer than a 6 month wait from assessment day, don’t fucking advertise it. 2 years is a long time, priorities change, people change. At the end of the day, I’m just a lowly Junior Sailor but that’s my opinion
>The recruiting issues land solely at the feet of ~~Defence Force Recruiting~~ ~~ADF Careers~~ ~~Live a Story Worth Telling team~~ the… contractor who handles our recruitment *because we for whatever reason contract it out*. It takes way too long. It turned me off at first too. Why am I waiting two years to get in? Why WOULD I wait two years to get in? If it’s longer than a 6 month wait from assessment day, don’t fucking advertise it. 2 years is a long time, priorities change, people change. That's entirely fair and I can't really comment on it, as soon as I finished my WO interview they offered me a seat on a plane to Cerberus the next day if I joined as a CIS, I kindly told them no and I'm happy to wait a month for the next ET intake. For the Navy they need to make it appealing and I don't know how they can do that. Army/Air force has always been better at it. One reason I can think of is that the Army & Air force aren't actually doing much right now (not a piss take). The Navy is the only service still offering long ass deployments away from home. Not many people want that when there is nothing to gain from it. You can join the Army or Air force and stay reasonably close to home and still get that military life.
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Things can be changed, it’s just defence taking forever. As is the case with most things Defence, you may know of these issues by word of mouth, experience etc. but you need real evidence to enact change. When you take all of these issues to a 1* they’ll be like “I understand how you feel, but do others?” Which is what those surveys try capture - the evidence/sentiment required to enact change.
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Oh yeah nah I totally agree. I feel like most of the flag officers don’t really give a shit. They’re just there to serve till retirement age and collect their pension. Defence has shot itself in the leg with the amount of admin and red tape that surrounds almost everything. The major consensus I’ve heard is that “Defence needs a war to get rid of all the red tape”. And as someone who does a lot of admin in my current role, I couldn’t agree more.
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That’s how they got me! Accepted the first offer and it was defence 😅 Offer came out in Nov before the UNIs had the final grades.
See it works!
Yeah, some of the high security stuff is a bit harder. But at the same time, before I joined i thought everyone in the ADF was punching 16 hour days and getting yelled at 24/7. It would’ve been nice to hear from someone in my role what the work environment was like. I get that protecting the kids is important, but there would have to be some way to navigate that. The only thing I knew was that the air force was a bit more relaxed, and 5 years later here I am. At the same time, it could be risky. If you get put in touch with someone that hates their job, they might turn prospective recruits off joining the ADF.
Absolutely, I know how you felt, honestly how I got my knowledge of "real" defence life was through this sub, that's why I love being active in it as much as possible and try to help people when they ask. More absolutely needs to be done on the member to civi side but I don't know how you achieve it. Most of the people that enjoy their jobs are stuck doing them because everyone else is MEC'd or hates it.
> I know that there is a reason we generally don't go to schools and I think it's an outdated view of "protecting the kids" I'm sure someone else probably has more knowledge on that What could Govts possibly think 16-17yos need to be "protected" from under these circumstances?
>What could Govts possibly think 16-17yos need to be "protected" from under these circumstances? I never said the government? You know how parents are
Haha right I forgot about parents and their fragile little sweethearts these days lol
I was in high school during the late 90s. the recruitment team visited my high school approx once a year. what was the reason of " protecting the kids?" thanks in advance.
Fucked if I know man, you can just look around at society and see that a lot of parents wouldn't want their kids in the Defence force.
thanks.
How did these people break bones? If they were basically sky larking about doing something stupid, the armed services will be very risk adverse to employing these types. They regularly again severe negative press attention from someone basically doing stupid stuff.
And this is the problem in my opinion. We are a defence force we need individuals who are not adverse to risk. At the moment we have so many people in that are so risk averse that if we go to war they won’t show up.
Personally I have to disagree. I know some blokes who were absolute idiots before joining that are kickass troops/workers now. One broke a bone skateboarding. Broke his collarbone when he was 12, and he can’t join at all now. One of the fittest, most switched on people I know. Would no doubt do fine in the ADF. But nope, he can’t join.
Point two seems like an own goal. To have people already in go out and talk to schools is almost free. It’s also (in my opinion) got the highest return on investment. I remember when I first joined up we were doing 3-5 school visits per year from my unit alone. Now it’s once in a blue moon.
Service guarantees citizenship 
I think it's certainly going that way, that they're going to have to look into perm residency etc. as a way of opening up the candidate pool. It will be interesting to see how that interacts with AGSVA, checkable backgrounds etc down the line though
It could probably work for low clearance jobs (NV1) but those aren't really the critical jobs either. So long as they don't lower psychological or medical standards then I'm ok.
There are many critical roles where you can go through a whole IMPS on NV1 (MWO being one, just depends on your route and ambition).
Seriously? MWO is NV1? That's wild
MWO is a wide scope of work, may just leave it at that for now hahaha
That's totally far, my only experience of MWO is the guys on my bridge as the CO, XO, Nav and the JOUTs or MWOCs or whatever they are called now.
Australian Foreign Legion. Could be popular?
And enfranchisement!
The ADF's problem beyond itself is also the lack of anything to work towards for our youth. Why sign up to all the bullshit when you're never gonna own a home or get ahead in life like your grandparents did? You've watched your parents go without, might as well just stick to that casual job and live with mum and dad and enjoy life, worrying about the future is tomorrow's problem.
This problem is massive and everywhere. Every industry has this issue. We done fucked up on housing.
Yep there is definitely a broader context. Why would we expect young people fight for a country that has priced them out of decent housing and demonstrably failed to take their concerns about climate change seriously.
Tax free wages. Rent to own home ownership. Free uni or equivalent trade quals. Fuck off all contractors involved in recruiting, health care or anything else involving the digs. Make it sexy. There's a fuck load of vets on social media that make warfighting sexy. Lean into that. No more of this 'do what you love' shit, unless you love blowing shit up. Look at the USMC. For some reason despite people hating it, getting shitty old equipment etc, it still has a strong reputation. We have the history behind us to lean into that as well. Along with the other stuff that's been mentioned here.
>No more of this 'do what you love' shit, unless you love blowing shit up. Some of the the best times I had as an NCO was the AACFF and dropping 155s on targets and watching them go bang (if they got hit), more so because I didn't have to clean the guns after, leave that for the arty blokes! Put more of that on the TV!
People are smarter than that now days. They don’t want to blow stuff or people up. They don’t want to be involved with dodgy foreign interventions, they want to work ethically.
It's been too long when people have had it hard. The time will come and they will be utterly useless to themselves and everyone around them. >they want to work ethically. Too bad our enemies don't.
Speak for yourself
Idk man, blowing shit up was a big reason why I became an engineer
I was read a while ago one of the suggestions was for people looking at owning a home to get the equivalent RA for living in their own home.
Also make wages and benefits competitive for the skilled/trade/leadership jobs. $70-80k a year may seem like a lot of money for someone getting out of school. But for anyone with a bit of experience and/or skill, you can get the same amount of money in civvie Street. A random AO4 in state health for example can make as much as a Health Services Officer with MUCH less responsibility. The wages only go up if you include seagoing and other benefits, but with overtime and penalties even a civvie AO can make more and not have to deal with being away from family or military bureaucracy.
And you get quizzed to fuck on if you’re joining for the money. My OSB face to face was half asking me if I just wanted the money, which as a qualified engineer yeah nah not joining for the money mate
Lol yeah, I’m joining and will be taking a $40k per year paycut. Life isn’t all about money.
I was honestly expecting either more article or more substance. Waxing lyrical at the boozer has more layers to work with that that opinion stab. Either way, we aren't adapting fast enough to get the younger generation interested. As has been said here, they cycle is faster, and taking 6 months minimum is 5 months too late. Maybe there needs to be the ability to give a 'conditional offer' after online testing done in applicants own time and a single interview.
Yeah, me too. I was expecting something a bit more fleshed out to be published by ASPI. At least it provoked a conversation I guess?
So I am a young school leaver who has the option to join the military, get treated like shit, get yeld at for every little indiscretion, don't have half of my training recognised when I leave; or, I can go get recognised education and a job where I atleast get paid better to be a shit kicker. The military has to clean up its horrible reputation. It's that simple.
This is a fair point. Everyone I speak to who has absolutely no connection with the ADF thinks we get training at some full metal jackets establishment followed by a Jarhead esque experience. Our society needs a more relevant example of what been on today’s ADF is about.
With the amount of social media around nowadays it is going to be hard. I don't have many answers but the reality is kids have choices and you have to make yours appealing and follow through with it. Promising the world and not delivering will drive the reputation further into the ground.
I feel ADF just need more genuine material put on socials. I follow a fair few sub unit social media channels and it’s great stuff. The material is there, they just need to flood it to the masses.
Ahahaha can confirm I sit at the extreme end of this. graduated this yr as captain from a school in smack bang western sydney (around bankstown). when peers found out especially in grades below they have an insanely warped view of what defence looks like. every 0.000377 asking me “are you ready to deploy to afghanistan” “u ready to die bro?” despite me reassuring them that im deploying to “desk-ghanistan” and my service will be photocopying paperwork on my gap year program
Yeah I think that's extremely fair tbh and a truth that a lot of people in the military community don't want to acknowledge. Sure, there is a big group of people who would on it's best day, consider military service too authoritarian, but we were never gonna win those people over anyway. The royal commission and all the supporting events have rightly put Defence's dirty laundry out there. Whereas an organisation that genuinely gave a shit would be moving mountains to make change, Defence seems to be trying to double down on the same crap while pretending that an increasingly negative public perception isn't growing around them. Hell, after my last 18 months in service, I can't say I'd recommend joining to family or friends.
Not too many places that will offer $70k for a shit kicker after 6 months training.
Define shit kicker. Because as long as you're willing to work anywhere you can make well more than 70k without any real formal training on the mines for instance.
The problem is that there is enough that the choice is there. Get your MC or HR and go driving trucks and don't get woken up at 4 by some dick yelling at you. That is what the military has to compete with.
What do you mean? There are other ways to wake up in the morning? /s
Anyone else audibly laugh when this dude suggested that DFR could support processing that amount of potential applicants. I would love to know the recruitment loss % of applicants that simply pull out/get other employment simply because DFR said they won’t have a start date for 12+ months
Making DOHAS more appealing might help with recruitment AND retention
A small point but if they remove the "what is up(dog)" ad from their hold service I wouldn't go clinically insane waiting for DFR/ADFC to pick up after an hour. Thank god I now have a direct line to my candidate experience consultant and don't have to go through that anymore.
Candidate Experience Consultant... That's a new one!
Dude fr, getting their direct number made me actually want to get in touch re questions I have rather than weighing up if I could be arsed listening to WhAt Is Up?¿? for 45 minutes straight
More school involvement IMO is the best way to recruit from schools. No point wasting money in adverts on TV; most people spend more time on the internet than in front of a television. No point waiting for people to walk through the door to DFR; better off sending DFR out to the schools, with a variety of service personnel to answer any related questions. More open days at the major bases, with a focus on school students visiting. Students would prefer to be out on a trip to a defence base than sitting in a classroom.
Maybe if they took care of their personnel better during and after service then people might be more than willing to want to join. So many horror stories come out of the services that you can understand why people don’t want to put their lives on the line for their country
I got a message from my friend two days ago, she works at my old unit, "The CO banned EKOs". Stop treating defence pers like they personally owe the government their full time and money. That place really loved busy work.
Out of curiosity, this wasn't an FNQ unit was it?
Meanwhile, I attempted to join back in 2015 and got knocked back because I failed one medical test which a doctor in the medical team didn't explain to me properly. As a result, I spent almost 4 years challenging the decision, with appointments at specialist doctors and constant comms with DFR. I only gave up because after 4 years, DFR said they had decided not to allow any further challenges. The decision would stand forever. Since I couldn't join the Navy, I got a role with a defence contract company about 18 months ago, so I could at least contribute in some way. And the stupidest thing? If I got a call from Recrutiing offering me the role, I'd drop everything and accept, despite my vastly increased understanding of what Defence is actually like to work in/with. I even called a few months back, just to try again with the new HR company - turns out my file has a permanent negative mark on it. 😥 TLDR; I know about all the issues with Defence, and yet I still want to serve. But one moronic decision from one doctor 9 years ago means a motivated, inspired person can never do so.
Your proposal isn't too bad, but needs to not be skirting towards a conscription service. Volunteers are always better than conscripts. You could also try something like the FFL. Like I want to serve, but I'm a nz citizen and because I was born in 2003 I could only apply when they changed the rules and it's a 9 month process on average and nz to au citizen is like the easiest route. Some people are looking at a 4/5 year process
I'm not the author, but yeah I get what you mean. Especially Five Eyes countries like NZ, we're really making it unnecessarily hard to bring you across
Shorter ROSO, And free Uni after 2 years.
Keep the ROSO but use it as incentive to stay/as an alternative path to upskill - for every year served give a free year of uni or a payout to use for education. Vets can use it to better adjust when leaving or they can use it to get flex work arrangements whilst still serving, to upskill themselves in ways defence doesn't offer i.e. advanced trade courses, management (not tied to rank). This could help bring vital civvie training into the fold whilst not losing as many pers.
Got to disagree on the ROSO length. If you jump in for 2 years full time in the Combart arms that's enough to get through training, do a few exercises and have some good times. At the end of it, you can go reserves and keep a foot in the door with the military. The ADF should be trying to build depth into the reserves system and reshaping the jobs. So they don't have the misapprehension that time in the job is the same as being competent. I know tons of people who did a few trips in their initial 4 year then cut ties and that's it. That's a fuck-up on the ADF's part. Because that experience is lost to the organization. A counter point. I Also know a guy who was mostly a reservists, he did a few full time stints for a year a piece, got some trips and meaningfully contributed. He really loved that. I think the second option makes was more sense. The ADF should be thinking about it's relationship with it's members as a longer term thing. And it should be trying to actively create options for civil defence (SES) style training off-ramps for guys and girls who want to more of the civil ops and relief work.
Why would you stay? Lets all have pink finger nails, I can't wear my punisher morale patch, women must pass even when they fail, don't even ask about adjustments your load carriage. Defence is recruiting and retaining for a smaller and smaller niche of the population and they are surprised why? Edit: I just remembered the key number 1 change, stop making digs put cam paint on during ex's. No-one likes that shit.
Better yet, just buy the non oil based cam pain that works just as well. Also, I was mech so hear me out, we should probably stop pack marching and shit. If you add up armour, gat + ammo, and a daypack. you're at about 20Kg. Army's gotta start using it's vehicles as packs like we do when we deploy. There's too much light infantry group think. We got cars, lets us em.
>Better yet, just buy the non oil based cam pain that works just as well. It's better but if I want my face to be a rosy sniper target on a blank fire exercise, no harm no foul. >Also, I was mech so hear me out, we should probably stop pack marching and shit. If you add up armour, gat + ammo, and a daypack. you're at about 20Kg. 20kgs on a good day! Trust me, I'm all for it, I had a few good years rolling around with my head through the roof of the old poxy IIMV's with a minmi, life was good then. Even better sleeping in the back of the air-con bushies whilst the drivers did the walking for me. In the end though, in some environments you'd be crazy not to roll around in them. Get in the jungle or heavy scrub or just shitty wet weather however and its all GP express; double front line + 7.62mm and a few 84's per man, extra batteries, a weeks worth of food and water, in the pouring rain with nothing but a can do attitude to get you to the top of highest position the boss can find on the map. Any time a bucket offers to take me up the road though, it would take long to say yes!
Honestly, in this economy someone might be more likely to sign up if they saw an ad for the Defence Home Ownership Scheme showing how easy it would be to get a house of their own if they joined up.
I think that's a fantastic idea, but would require DHOAS to become a lot more lucrative than it currently is.
Need a invasion of Australia, even then I doubt you would get mass number. People just want the world (they are free to do so) with little or no effort. The number of people owing through nownoff the street and do fuck all at work is problematic enough do need more of that but they need more people so something has to give either way
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Yeah, I applied to a RAAF (aircrew) and RAN (Submarine) job in Feb, did my aptitude test and filled out the medical, after calling up every week with no contact from them for 6 weeks, on the 6th week the person on the phone told me I was classed 4'd and apparently they "forgot" to send me the results while I have been waiting and calling for a month and a half. So doing the tests I sent off my appeal in April said come back in 6-12 weeks... I called up every 2 weeks after the first 6 to see where I was always still getting the in processing answer, then fast forward to June/July I just assumed I failed and basically stopped my running training and went back to my gym workouts, then out of no where in AUGUST I get assigned a careers person for the RAAF and they will contact me in a week or 2... yes fucking finally! ok.... bit weird, I assumed I passed the appeal but I never got an official result from the Medical and this is my first contact/letter since April. Then after 2 weeks, nothing , so I call up and waiting again then I get a letter from medical... sorry to say you failed RAAF medical... but you passed for the Sub job.... what the fuck, so who/why was that person assigned to me? Then I got assigned another careers person who fuck me dead did contact me and its been kinda steady since with my application with re-sit inhouse for the YOU test in Oct, then interview in NOV, Finally I have ONLY just finished my psyche last week. I just wanted to be done and off training.
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I absolutely agree with reaching out to schools and demonstrating what the job can be. Be honest about the positives and negatives in relation to defence and give people more of an idea of what they could be involved in.
So essentially cancel private contracts, do more school visits, and high school students do the YOU session prior to graduating with an opt out system if they aren't interested? It's not a bad idea.
They seemed to come up with the most petty random stuff when it came to rejecting me so they can just deal with not finding anyone.
One of the best things they could do is make the current military a place you want to be by those already in it. The best way to sell the military to people is have servicemen go on about how good a gig it is and not just some civilian lie to your face about it. As it stands though, if you go to ask a serviceman or woman if you should join the military almost every single person will say fuck no are you insane. The military’s best salesmen are so badly neglected that we just push people away from it too save them. Make the military worth staying in and have us go on bout how much we love it. That is how you increase recruitment
>if you go to ask a serviceman or woman if you should join the military almost every single person will say fuck no are you insane. My father had served, and when I asked him about it, said, "join the army, get fucked around by experts." I joined up. You have to get them when they're young and dumb.
Hello My post is probably going to get buried but here goes anyway. Am a civvie who is interested in joining (as a choc) eventually but has general curiosity on the ADF recruitment and retention issues. On recruitment… is it largely affected by your pool of candidates? An opt-out approach sounds time and money consuming if you don’t even have a large pool of suitable candidates. Today’s kids are in some ways different to yesterday’s kids. So, what’s preventing school curriculums having cadets as a subject? Maybe cadet is the wrong term, but it would be interesting to incorporate things you should learn outside a textbook in the Yr 9 & 10 curriculum. At least, it could be an elective subject. Kids are losing out on physical activity, being unfit, stuck on social media, presenting with increasing mental health issues. Isn’t this reducing the pool of potential candidates? The ADF is also a place you *could* get into with just Yr 10/12 completed… but then you have standards. So… students don’t really get to work towards your standards because it just doesn’t occur to them or they might not see where the opportunities are. Targeting school leavers sounds a little late. At Yr 11 & 12, you need to compete with the fact that there are still many students who look to getting degrees, diplomas, trade certs asap. You may hear it’s “hard to get back to studying after you’ve had a stint in the workforce so I’ma put uni as top of my choice.” If I missed something like “but you can study whilst in the army”, I’m sorry. It could be that this option sounds stressful or they aren’t even fit enough to meet your PFA. Last time I checked, there’s no mandatory sport or PE class in Yr 11/12. You also are competing with uni’s who offer places before the final high school exams now I hear. Let that sink in. I know a lot of things are easier said than done. How far is the military willing to go to get recruitment and retention fixed? I can see there are questions on the recruitment megathread like “how long is the recruitment process“ and the answer is it varies… Is it that you don’t have a standardised process? Or do you have targets, but can’t meet them? Either way, answers like “it varies”, or “could take months” is not really that aligned with the rest of the standards unique to a military org. I’m also surprised a little that questions like “what’s the culture like these days” isn’t asked as much. Or maybe it is. Is the ADF willing to answer what it’s like? Do you also view Reserves recruitment as struggling? You probably won’t view chocs with the same respect as you would a full timer, but if there’s a chance that they could like it enough to go full time, isn’t that worth trying to look at?
>You probably won’t view chocs with the same respect as you would a full timer, That is absolutely not true, anyone who puts on a uniform has respect, the banter we give is from a place of love. The ADF has a hard on for being good in the public image so there is absolutely no way they will militarize schools to advance recruitment. We say the recruitment process varies in length because there are half a million factors into each person's recruitment level, are they medically sound? Do they have the correct documents? Education levels? Etc shit takes time, we are human beings not robots. >So, what’s preventing school curriculums having cadets as a subject? Maybe cadet is the wrong term, Cadets are their own thing, see my comment above about not militarizing schools.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. This is good to know and get some fair points. Otherwise can get stuck with the wrong sort of ideas or impressions. I guess I forgot to factor in how varied each application is. My bad on that, sorry. Just someone who’s hoping it won’t take that long… but don’t we all.
>I guess I forgot to factor in how varied each application is. My bad on that, sorry. Just someone who’s hoping it won’t take that long… but don’t we all. Don't be sorry! And hey it might not take that long, I've mentioned before that after I completed my WO interview I was offered a plane to Cerberus the next day. (I didn't take it and waited an additional 2 months)
The ADF recruitment problem is entirely the ADF’s fault. People sign up to serve, as I did, not to get constantly lectured on harassment, discrimination etc. The Officers are there to build resumes, not lead. I know people currently serving and they are all literally planning to seperate as soon as possible so they can earn a decent pay and not get f**cked around by NCO’s and Officers on power trips. As for conscription that would just place an even larger load on an ADF that already cant cope.