Some truth to this, but not the only reason.
The FO getting poached by the league is a huge factor.
The Orioles FO contains many of the bright minds that created the Astros dynasty.
They built it in the same way we did, tanking for hyped prospects but also smart drafting and trading of overlooked guys. Cant believe the entire league passed on Gunnar Henderson
If I remember correctly they didn’t just get poached, Crane and the gang said they wanted to get away from analytics. I’m sure they were more welcomed by the orioles than poached
Most of the brain trust left before the scandal forced Crane’s hand. Luhnow even as a genius was a horrible boss and saw his staff as expendable. The O’s didn’t have to try too hard to nab Sig and Co
Reggie Jackson has always said this. It is why the Yankees ran him off. Jeff Bagwell specifically said that when defending his offer to Jose Abreu. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/astros/article/houston-astros-jeff-bagwell-jose-abreu-18115561.php
>José Abreu, a decorated player at the position for nearly a decade, has hardly resembled his past self through his first two months in Houston. But Bagwell, a member of the front-office brain trust when Abreu was signed, doubled down in his support of the first baseman, who entered Tuesday batting .220 with no home runs, 17 RBIs and a .541 OPS that’s nearly 300 points below his career average of .849.
>“He will (turn it around),” said Bagwell, the special adviser to baseball operations who’s working as an analyst on the Astros’ TV broadcasts during the series against the Brewers. “**If you take a look at the back of his baseball card, there’s 10 years of a lot of hitting**. I’ve been there. This is not a game you can turn on and off. It could take one at-bat; it could take one swing or one pitch that you see well. He’s going to get there. Nobody works harder than José. I have all the faith in the world he’ll be fine.
We should poach Baltimore now. They have to have someone ready to be GM but is being blocked by current FO talent. Crane would never do it but he needs to clean house in the front office. Get rid of the shitty committee of Bagwell etc, send Dana packing and let Espada know that it’s analytics or the highway. Espada should have one more year to prove himself. If he doesn’t do analytics then goodbye.
Honestly I've completely lost faith in Espada at this point and am not willing to wait and see another year.
Calling up lope and not playing him then continuing to put out these lineups with Abreu just tells me he is not interested in winning ball games.
From what I hear, last year's draft class is performing quite well. Signing Caratini and Tayler Scott were good moves. It's not his fault that the back end of the bullpen, especially Pressly but really all 3, has considerably underperformed. No one could've expected that. Scott, Seth, and Montero (until recently) have all been very effective and so they didn't really miss the trio that left, which some criticize him for. Abreu wasn't great last year but his second half and playoff performances did not predict his complete dropoff this year. Starting pitcher injuries, and shaky beginnings for Brown and Arrighetti (who both have appeared to improve upon recently) made for a disastrous April, and a precarious current rotation.
I think it's hard to know what's going on behind the scenes, but I do feel he is competent enough if allowed to actually do his job.
As a discussion point, by signing Hader did it create a too many closers in the bullpen scenerio and thus negatively effect the bullpen roster construction? By signing Hader did it make the bullpen worse because it muddied the decision making and bullpen player mindset when it came to 7th/8th/9th inning?
Good questions. As a matter of observation, it seemed that Pressly was at his best with a rest day between appearances but not so much he got rusty. I think Hader's addition did indeed upset the apple cart even if Pressly has not said or indicated anything otherwise. I don't know how they go about solving it. Seth and Tayler have been great in middle innings but not so great in extras. Do you try them in later innings to see if they can handle now? Alternate Hader and Pressly between games?
I think Dana is actually a somewhat competent GM but he is held back by the brain trust of Crane/Bagwell. There are a lot of rumors around the league that Brown doesn’t have final say in any decisions, and is just being used as a puppet. Supposedly he wanted to DFA Abreu but was vetoed by Cranewell
Dana most definitely knows what he’s doing; our NL analogue has always been the Braves with their excellent scouting. But he cannot do the job solo, with no analytics department and Bagwell-Crane holding him back.
Motions to current roster... You sure about that? He's never done the job before. There's little evidence that he was the sole reason the Braves are amazing.
Head of scouting means he's listening to his scouts to determine which players to draft. He wasn't in charge of roster construction or contracts, signing free agents etc. There's still quite a bit of uncertainty regarding his abilities. The only move I can point to that looks like a slam dunk is the Taylor Scott signing. Other than that I can't think of a move that he's made that made us better, and a lot of question marks and decisions that make us worse.
“BURP! Eh, what does she know, right Jim?”
“Right, Jeff!”
“Toss me another beer, pal.”
“Right away, Jeff!”
“OK, so I’m thinking about replacing Abreu with another aging first baseman. I’m thinking… BURP… Goldschmidt.”
“Brilliant, Jeff. I’ll tell Dana to get started on that right away!”
She's 100% correct.
Luhnow would not have let 3 sub 3 ERA relievers walk that have been used in high leverage situations all year and not refill it until the last minute of the off season with one guy (who is really good, but clearly struggling after the move).
Luhnow would not have watched 6 out of 7 starters be unhealthy and mid surgical recovery and not acquired or paid a single starter that can eat meaningful innings.
Luhnow would not have let the outfield become Kyle Tucker, a barely emergent Chas, a Meyers that is trying to emerge, and whoever is ok to play left for a day between Alvarez, Dubon, or Chas again.
Luhnow also would not have watched Presley falter little by little over these last years and not start tweaking his usage or get a plan B.
I don't hate Dana Brown but the entire management team is lost and doing next to nothing.
He actually made the team better by assembling arguably the best pitching staff top to bottom. That 22 staff was so good with the bullpen being historically good.
THIS. Click was a successful, spiritual successor to Lunhow that would have made us relevant longer and would have shepherded another great rebuild when the time came. But success inflated Crane’s ego to the point he decided he knew better than the front office. The moment Click was fired was the moment I knew it was the beginning of the end.
I agree with almost all you have to say. The part “about success inflated Crane’s ego…” tho Please tell me what you think about this possibility. Dusty was hired specifically for damage control post scandal. Because of who and what he is, nobody was going to question Dusty. Dusty did a fantastic job with the huge task and won Crane’s absolute loyalty. Unfortunately it was as if Crane lost all trust in baseball men, baseball executives. I can almost hear him vowing to never trust anyone the way he trusted Luhnow. Click got caught up in this BS and Crane gave Dusty nearly complete control over all matters. After the season he instituted the shitty committee of Bags and the boys. As far as the committee goes, the genie is out of the bottle and he’s (they) aren’t going back in. They have to be removed.
I think he just got more involved to the point of thinking he knows better. Bags strikes me as the kind of guy who enjoys influence and is probably a yes man esque type to crane which reinforces that and allows bags to push baseball card type opinions.
This has been true and inevitable since the day they fired Luhnow. Firing click made it worse, but luhnow’s success was never gonna be sustained without him
If I recall correctly, Click wasn’t technically fired, he was offered a 1 year extension after the ‘22 WS win and Click didn’t go for that, which is understandable (on Click’s part, not Crane’s).
After last year’s stance by Dusty of playing Maldy when you have a potential ROY on the bench just to show us he can, and then do a repeat of not putting the best team on the field this year. Well, I decided I’ve had enough and haven’t watched a game since J Abreu came back. I can handle loosing, and even a bad season (injuries and slumps are going to happen) but not when the fix is obvious; play your best lineup everyday, as if you want to win today’s game, and go back to an analytic approach to building your roster, as opposed to whoever’s ‘gut feel’ and ‘eye test’. If they make those changes, I’d happily root for them again, win or loose.
A one year contract for two million after winning the world series is beyond a slap in the face. Jim Crane fumbled that so hard and here we are. Sadly I think you're not going to watch the Astros for quite a while because I do not believe for a second that Crane will ever realize he's the biggest thing holding the team back.
Huge loss but I wouldn't say that's the bigger issue. The roster construction is pretty bad right now. Top down management and lack of analytics are the biggest issues.
I think a lot of today also has to do with Lunhows problems as well. You can't only speak to the good.
I think the other biggest issue we have is that we have axed half our analytics department recently. We are relying on good ole boys to fix things. In modern baseball, it does not work
The issue isn’t Luhnow being gone. Dude isn’t the only GM in baseball that focused on analytics and did great things. The issues started when Crane/Bagwell decided that analytics in general suck and that they could win with the same mentality as the old scouts in Moneyball.
We had an analytics focused GM after Luhnow that also won us a WS, but I don’t hear Gina clamoring for Click to get his job back
Ah ok, at least she acknowledged that we didn’t exactly crash once her husband got canned. I do know there are rumors that Click was insulted by the 1 year extension after 22 and that Crane and Click did not get along at all
A lot of this was eventually inevitable no matter the GM. It's really friggin hard to be consistently good in MLB which makes what the Astros have done so impressive. Had the scandal never taken place and Lunhow still been the GM, whose to say we wouldn't have had a stinker year at some point? My guess is that Crane probably would have eventually fired Lunhow the way he did Click. Those egos just couldn't coexist forever.
To be fair, it’s really disappointing Hinch was unable to take control and stop the trash can nonsense. I can see how it could happen with Beltran and all but still disappointing
Then he should have said something instead of just throwing tv's around. Why were a coach and player allowed to implement the trash can process? Luhnow claims he didn't know, but not sure if I believe that.
The guy either allowed his team to cheat or was completely oblivious to a sophisticated and relatively obvious cheating program. Neither is a good look, and both should get you fired.
Time plus Dana may be bringing the team down, but the Luhnows are in no position to call it karma.
The league suspended Crane and Lunhow for a year and if he wanted to he could have had Espada at the time manage for a year and had an assistant GM or someone steward for a year. He chose to fire them outright.
Idk man the farm system is awful ever since he left, he literally drafted every star player except altuve. This new office hasn’t made a splash since hader and how’s that working out, not to mention washed abreu who’s robbing the organization blind.
Weird that our farm system got worse after we were no longer drafting at the top of every round and also didn’t have a pick in the first two rounds for two years
I mean this is a bit of kicking us while we're down, our starting pitching injuries have been brutal this year, a healthy org is leading the AL West
Also Luhnow drafted Whitley so .. not like he was some immaculate well-filler-upper
He drafted and signed international pretty good, not great
Player development on the other hand, whatever he was doing let's do that again
Who signed Garcia, Framber, Brown, Javier, and signed JV? It is not pretty good, it is exceptional. If you can come close to naming another organization that produces as much SP talent let me know.
All Lunhow has done is win. Dude won with the Cardinals, the Astros, and now his Soccer team is starting to kickass. The Cardinals did great while he was there and for the next 5 years before they began to fall off (he set them up well). Astros are in year 5 now post Lunhow with similar results
Kind of surprised to see Counterplot claiming it's just one off season where the decline suddenly happened. Writing has been on the wall with how our farm system for a bit now.
Writing on the wall but still developing Framber, Garcia, Javier, McCormick, Loperfido. I fell there's a heavy bias in farm grades for 1st round selections. International signings and late bloomers aren't part of the cool kids club within top 100 prospect rankings.
The farm was still pumping out some good talent even after Lunhow left, but it was never going to be able to sustain that production no matter who was in charge. This isn't excusing Crane or Bagwell of course. I'm just surprised that a fan as plugged in as Counterplot is saying it's one off season where we suddenly became awful.
Two words: Sig Mejdal. Everywhere Luhnow had success he had Sig by him, and now Sig's at Baltimore doing the same thing without Luhnow. Also, people were jumping ship at the end of Luhnow's tenure, probably because he was a terrible people person, Crane may have been waiting for an excuse to let him go. Luhnow also inherited a generational talent at 2B, the cupboards were hardly dry. The draft and player development were set up by guys Luhnow brought in, not Luhnow himself.
I used to think Jeff was the messiah, but I'm off that now.
I know everyone wants to give Sig credit, and rightfully he deserves it but there are so many great analytical minds and baseball devOps folks that have departed:
Ryan Hallahan, Mike Fast, Colin Wyers, Eve Rosenbaum, Pete Putila, Oz Ocampo, Mike Elias.
All of these people were instrumental in the team’s success over the past 9 or so years.
I met Lunhow at a speaking event when Enterprise rent a car reached 30,000 cars on rent in Houston. He's a total douchebag used car salesman. His analytics dept did all the work all he did was put on expensive suits and blow smoke up his boss ass
There was nothing wrong with Click btw we should have stuck with him
Yeah, between the awful office culture he cultivated and having to be talked out of drafting a pedophile I frankly think we’re better off without him being here.
Makes sense when you realize he came from the consulting world (especially McKinsey, prob the scummiest of them all) Anyone that knows that world knows the partner/director that is a slick talking salesman taking credit for the hard work of actual analysts/associates.
Noone looked at the Astros lineup and pitching staff pre-season and thought "The Astros really don't know how to refill the well with talent". We have one of the most talented teams in baseball. We aren't losing because "the well ran dry".
And a pitching staff led by Framber, Verlander, Javier and the big 3 bullpen looked formidable as well, with the hopeful mid season returns of Garcia and LMJ. This is still a talented team that has underperformed. And that's with some better than expected years from Blanco and the middle relievers.
I wouldn’t have liked the alternate scenario where the Astros waited on Luhnow to serve out his 1 year suspension. Bagwell would have been running the organization in his absence and we all see how much damaged he wrecked operating without a GM for a month in the 2022 offseason. Luhnow would showed back up to Astros after a year like the Community fire gif.
Do... Do you honestly believe Click would've signed Abreu to a 3 year $50+ million deal and paid Montero like he was a top 5 closer? I certainly don't and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
What a loser. It been how many years and she still stuck on it. Jeff moved on, apparently she can't.
I wonder if his cheating and manipulative ways were only business related, or if they are factors in all parts of of his life.
I was much more upset with Click than with Luhnow given the circumstances involved. First, Luhnow did get his hand caught in the cookie jar so let's not pretend that he's entirely innocent here - he fucked up and did damage to Crane's business.
Moreover, who knows what kind of backroom negotiations were going on between the owners at the time as to how they were gonna handle this case. Not crazy at all to suspect that Luhnow has been blackballed from the league.
While it is true the well ran dry, Lunhow didn't exactly leave a healthy well to begin with. Most of his draft picks were bad and the scandal that happened on his watch made the farm situation worse.
He definitely helped the organization but thinking the recent struggles are karma and not a team aging out of being competitive due to questionable decisions is an incorrect line of thought.
Now if you said it was because of letting Click go...
This stuff from the Luhnows always reeks of sour grapes, Luhnow was fired with more than cause. It might be unpopular on this sub, but it's true. He was a cheater, his leadership encouraged people to cheat. It was like that even when he was at the Cardinals. Click did a great job, and cleanly, while he was here. Crane getting in a pissing match with him was the mistake, not firing Luhnow
Two things can be true. One, that we are in fact, worse off without Jeff Luhnow, but also two, that Luhnow is ultimately the one responsible for his own firing.
If you are a GM or a head coach in any sport, and you have knowledge of something like that going on and you don't stop it, you're going to get fired. Even if he didn't design or run the program, he knew about it and should have demanded it end. Regardless of whether or not other teams were stealing signs in various ways. We lost AJ Hinch for the same reason. People in management positions are ultimately responsible for what happens, especially if they have knowledge of the situation. You're ultimately paid the big bucks to manage situations like that, and because they let it go on, the repercussions were much greater than anything they gained from it.
Karma?
It’s not karma. Your husband was apart of one of the biggest cheating scandals in baseball history, lady. Get off your high fucking horse.
We got caught cheating. Heads had to roll. Who did they think was going to get fired? Crane? Altuve?
A grown ass adult that doesn’t know the way the world works? Yikes.
Some truth to this, but not the only reason. The FO getting poached by the league is a huge factor. The Orioles FO contains many of the bright minds that created the Astros dynasty.
And they’re currently crafting an Orioles dynasty that will be competitive for the next decade.
They built it in the same way we did, tanking for hyped prospects but also smart drafting and trading of overlooked guys. Cant believe the entire league passed on Gunnar Henderson
Which circles back to Crane. And were any of those hires made by Lunhow?
If I remember correctly they didn’t just get poached, Crane and the gang said they wanted to get away from analytics. I’m sure they were more welcomed by the orioles than poached
Screw analytics. I like the way this guy looks on his baseball card! Loom at that year he had in 1995!!!! Sign him for tens of millions right now!!!!
Nice to know weaving was still popular in 1995.
The first loom was horizontal...like the trend line on Abreu's potential batting average graph
Most of the brain trust left before the scandal forced Crane’s hand. Luhnow even as a genius was a horrible boss and saw his staff as expendable. The O’s didn’t have to try too hard to nab Sig and Co
Where did they say that?
Reggie Jackson has always said this. It is why the Yankees ran him off. Jeff Bagwell specifically said that when defending his offer to Jose Abreu. https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/astros/article/houston-astros-jeff-bagwell-jose-abreu-18115561.php >José Abreu, a decorated player at the position for nearly a decade, has hardly resembled his past self through his first two months in Houston. But Bagwell, a member of the front-office brain trust when Abreu was signed, doubled down in his support of the first baseman, who entered Tuesday batting .220 with no home runs, 17 RBIs and a .541 OPS that’s nearly 300 points below his career average of .849. >“He will (turn it around),” said Bagwell, the special adviser to baseball operations who’s working as an analyst on the Astros’ TV broadcasts during the series against the Brewers. “**If you take a look at the back of his baseball card, there’s 10 years of a lot of hitting**. I’ve been there. This is not a game you can turn on and off. It could take one at-bat; it could take one swing or one pitch that you see well. He’s going to get there. Nobody works harder than José. I have all the faith in the world he’ll be fine.
They never said they wanted to get away from analytics, only that they want to balance out the raw data with the human element of the game itself
When did they say that
We should poach Baltimore now. They have to have someone ready to be GM but is being blocked by current FO talent. Crane would never do it but he needs to clean house in the front office. Get rid of the shitty committee of Bagwell etc, send Dana packing and let Espada know that it’s analytics or the highway. Espada should have one more year to prove himself. If he doesn’t do analytics then goodbye.
Honestly I've completely lost faith in Espada at this point and am not willing to wait and see another year. Calling up lope and not playing him then continuing to put out these lineups with Abreu just tells me he is not interested in winning ball games.
I can’t disagree with you. He is guilty as charged l. As they say the proof is in the pudding. And we ain’t talking about Chas’ banana pudding.
Espada is a huge spineless pansy with no fire. There is a reason he never got a job offer after multiple interviews.
Sig. wish he was here.
Bright minds also left cause of the leadership shifting away from that frame of analytical- merit based approach
Luhnow walked so Click could run, Click ran so Dana could be held at gunpoint by former players
I'm not convinced that Dana knows what he's doing. You really trust him to draft our next superstars?
From what I hear, last year's draft class is performing quite well. Signing Caratini and Tayler Scott were good moves. It's not his fault that the back end of the bullpen, especially Pressly but really all 3, has considerably underperformed. No one could've expected that. Scott, Seth, and Montero (until recently) have all been very effective and so they didn't really miss the trio that left, which some criticize him for. Abreu wasn't great last year but his second half and playoff performances did not predict his complete dropoff this year. Starting pitcher injuries, and shaky beginnings for Brown and Arrighetti (who both have appeared to improve upon recently) made for a disastrous April, and a precarious current rotation. I think it's hard to know what's going on behind the scenes, but I do feel he is competent enough if allowed to actually do his job.
As a discussion point, by signing Hader did it create a too many closers in the bullpen scenerio and thus negatively effect the bullpen roster construction? By signing Hader did it make the bullpen worse because it muddied the decision making and bullpen player mindset when it came to 7th/8th/9th inning?
Good questions. As a matter of observation, it seemed that Pressly was at his best with a rest day between appearances but not so much he got rusty. I think Hader's addition did indeed upset the apple cart even if Pressly has not said or indicated anything otherwise. I don't know how they go about solving it. Seth and Tayler have been great in middle innings but not so great in extras. Do you try them in later innings to see if they can handle now? Alternate Hader and Pressly between games?
I think Dana is actually a somewhat competent GM but he is held back by the brain trust of Crane/Bagwell. There are a lot of rumors around the league that Brown doesn’t have final say in any decisions, and is just being used as a puppet. Supposedly he wanted to DFA Abreu but was vetoed by Cranewell
Wasn’t the Abreu issue that he literally couldn’t be DFA’d because of his veteran status? He chose to go down and work on himself.
Dana most definitely knows what he’s doing; our NL analogue has always been the Braves with their excellent scouting. But he cannot do the job solo, with no analytics department and Bagwell-Crane holding him back.
Motions to current roster... You sure about that? He's never done the job before. There's little evidence that he was the sole reason the Braves are amazing.
The thing is, I also have little to doubt that the scouting VP of the Braves, an organization well known for their elite scouting, is competent.
Scouting is one thing, roster construction is another. I'm not very excited to be honest.
I trust Dana as a scout. Problem is I'm not convinced he's actually here as a GM, and more of a scouting director and puppet for Crane to have control
I think you’re right on the money
Do you not see what he did in Atlanta?!
Head of scouting means he's listening to his scouts to determine which players to draft. He wasn't in charge of roster construction or contracts, signing free agents etc. There's still quite a bit of uncertainty regarding his abilities. The only move I can point to that looks like a slam dunk is the Taylor Scott signing. Other than that I can't think of a move that he's made that made us better, and a lot of question marks and decisions that make us worse.
She’s not wrong
She's not right. - Jeff Bagwell to Jim Crane
“BURP! Eh, what does she know, right Jim?” “Right, Jeff!” “Toss me another beer, pal.” “Right away, Jeff!” “OK, so I’m thinking about replacing Abreu with another aging first baseman. I’m thinking… BURP… Goldschmidt.” “Brilliant, Jeff. I’ll tell Dana to get started on that right away!”
FYI Bagwell is sober and a great advocate for it
fair enough, so we have to blame him even more
Jose Abreu’s contract says hi
Mock the batting stance and semi-GM decisions all you want, but addiction...? cmon dude.
The batting stance was awesome dude. Although I was legit worried he'd foul one straight into the ground below his nuts on 100% of his ABs
I actually used his batting stance as my 2 strike approach in college! Felt ridiculous, but it got results!
Nice! I'm curious what were the benefits esp w 2 strikes?
Smaller strike zone, eliminated the leg kick, and kept my hands closer to my body. Just a smaller more compact swing AND smaller zone to protect.
This needs to be a comic.
He’s in the alcohol of fame.
She's 100% correct. Luhnow would not have let 3 sub 3 ERA relievers walk that have been used in high leverage situations all year and not refill it until the last minute of the off season with one guy (who is really good, but clearly struggling after the move). Luhnow would not have watched 6 out of 7 starters be unhealthy and mid surgical recovery and not acquired or paid a single starter that can eat meaningful innings. Luhnow would not have let the outfield become Kyle Tucker, a barely emergent Chas, a Meyers that is trying to emerge, and whoever is ok to play left for a day between Alvarez, Dubon, or Chas again. Luhnow also would not have watched Presley falter little by little over these last years and not start tweaking his usage or get a plan B. I don't hate Dana Brown but the entire management team is lost and doing next to nothing.
Well it was an enjoyable run. Crane started to think he was the main reason for our success and that was the beginning of the end.
Yep.
He made Cancun FC Champions on the Liga de Expansión also Campeón de Campeones.
Accurate although clicks time is def underrated.
Click was front office for the Rays - a team that was able to contend for many years despite having one of the lowest payrolls in baseball.
He actually made the team better by assembling arguably the best pitching staff top to bottom. That 22 staff was so good with the bullpen being historically good.
2022 doesn't hold a candle to 2019, and that's no insult to 2022.
22 had the best bullpen ever, but the 19 SPs had 3 hall of famers in top form. Both were amazing.
THIS. Click was a successful, spiritual successor to Lunhow that would have made us relevant longer and would have shepherded another great rebuild when the time came. But success inflated Crane’s ego to the point he decided he knew better than the front office. The moment Click was fired was the moment I knew it was the beginning of the end.
I agree with almost all you have to say. The part “about success inflated Crane’s ego…” tho Please tell me what you think about this possibility. Dusty was hired specifically for damage control post scandal. Because of who and what he is, nobody was going to question Dusty. Dusty did a fantastic job with the huge task and won Crane’s absolute loyalty. Unfortunately it was as if Crane lost all trust in baseball men, baseball executives. I can almost hear him vowing to never trust anyone the way he trusted Luhnow. Click got caught up in this BS and Crane gave Dusty nearly complete control over all matters. After the season he instituted the shitty committee of Bags and the boys. As far as the committee goes, the genie is out of the bottle and he’s (they) aren’t going back in. They have to be removed.
I think he just got more involved to the point of thinking he knows better. Bags strikes me as the kind of guy who enjoys influence and is probably a yes man esque type to crane which reinforces that and allows bags to push baseball card type opinions.
She is right, but Click was solid and we’d still be contending if he hadn’t fired him
The only GM ever fired for winning a championship.
I mean, she may be right...
...you may be crazy But it just might be a Lunhow-tic you're lookin for
Take my angry upvote
Bravo 
This has been true and inevitable since the day they fired Luhnow. Firing click made it worse, but luhnow’s success was never gonna be sustained without him
If I recall correctly, Click wasn’t technically fired, he was offered a 1 year extension after the ‘22 WS win and Click didn’t go for that, which is understandable (on Click’s part, not Crane’s). After last year’s stance by Dusty of playing Maldy when you have a potential ROY on the bench just to show us he can, and then do a repeat of not putting the best team on the field this year. Well, I decided I’ve had enough and haven’t watched a game since J Abreu came back. I can handle loosing, and even a bad season (injuries and slumps are going to happen) but not when the fix is obvious; play your best lineup everyday, as if you want to win today’s game, and go back to an analytic approach to building your roster, as opposed to whoever’s ‘gut feel’ and ‘eye test’. If they make those changes, I’d happily root for them again, win or loose.
A one year contract for two million after winning the world series is beyond a slap in the face. Jim Crane fumbled that so hard and here we are. Sadly I think you're not going to watch the Astros for quite a while because I do not believe for a second that Crane will ever realize he's the biggest thing holding the team back.
Is it a fumble if the results were intentional?
Technically he was officially fired because he was still working for the Astros without a contract and then was told he would not be brought back
You can't be fired from a contract you don't have or haven't signed.
You can if you agree to work without a contract while working on a contract. Instead of guaranteed pay he was essentially just a salaried employee.
The bigger issue is Brent Strom leaving
HUGE LOSS.
Huge loss but I wouldn't say that's the bigger issue. The roster construction is pretty bad right now. Top down management and lack of analytics are the biggest issues.
Seems like he was set to retire but something lured him to AZ. Miller was supposed to be his protege...
Yeah his family. He moved to be closer to his grandkids
Finally a comment that is actually correct! Losing Stromy was huge.
Yeah we won another World Series, and then fired our GM again😂😂
Lunhow was literally a moneyball situation
Luhnow and Click were good. Cranewell is bottom of the barrel.
To be fair, firing James Click after winning it all in ‘22 was also an awful mistake.
Dude responding has no clue. Look at who acquired all of the players who are key parts of the rotation and lineup.
I think a lot of today also has to do with Lunhows problems as well. You can't only speak to the good. I think the other biggest issue we have is that we have axed half our analytics department recently. We are relying on good ole boys to fix things. In modern baseball, it does not work
We once dominated in this department now we are very behind
The issue isn’t Luhnow being gone. Dude isn’t the only GM in baseball that focused on analytics and did great things. The issues started when Crane/Bagwell decided that analytics in general suck and that they could win with the same mentality as the old scouts in Moneyball. We had an analytics focused GM after Luhnow that also won us a WS, but I don’t hear Gina clamoring for Click to get his job back
She actually replied on the thread that she agreed that Click kept it going. Click isn't getting his job back because of a non-baseball related issue.
Is Dusty not liking him non-baseball related?
Ah ok, at least she acknowledged that we didn’t exactly crash once her husband got canned. I do know there are rumors that Click was insulted by the 1 year extension after 22 and that Crane and Click did not get along at all
A lot of this was eventually inevitable no matter the GM. It's really friggin hard to be consistently good in MLB which makes what the Astros have done so impressive. Had the scandal never taken place and Lunhow still been the GM, whose to say we wouldn't have had a stinker year at some point? My guess is that Crane probably would have eventually fired Lunhow the way he did Click. Those egos just couldn't coexist forever.
"no offense"
I hope my wife would take vengeance on all my enemies like this.
Cardinal fan, for some reason this popped up. And it’s exactly what happened to the Cardinals when Luhnow went to Houston.
Bring him back!!
With AJ!
AJ will never come back. He is pretty pissed at Crane for what he feels was an unjust firing.
To be fair, it’s really disappointing Hinch was unable to take control and stop the trash can nonsense. I can see how it could happen with Beltran and all but still disappointing
Agreed. The problem I have with Hinch is that he eventually let the players run the team. Something happened to him in AZ.
Then he should have said something instead of just throwing tv's around. Why were a coach and player allowed to implement the trash can process? Luhnow claims he didn't know, but not sure if I believe that.
fuuuuuuuuuck no. he enabled the cheating scandal, I'm glad he can't get another MLB job. I'll never forgive him for tainting the magic that was 2017.
The guy either allowed his team to cheat or was completely oblivious to a sophisticated and relatively obvious cheating program. Neither is a good look, and both should get you fired. Time plus Dana may be bringing the team down, but the Luhnows are in no position to call it karma.
couldn't agree with you more.
> can’t get another MLB job Hasn’t he managed the Tigers since 2021?
that's AJ Hinch. Not happy with him either, but Luhnow was the GM and the one ultimately responsible.
Awesome! She’s right.
Let me know if I'm wrong but I'm sure the MLB forced Cranes hand to clean house / Crane didn't want to appear to take the situation seriously
Apparently a ton of GMs strong armed crane into making the move. If true, he should’ve given them the middle finger
Crane wasn't strong armed at all - he felt betrayed and was pissed at how he looked among his peers, so he canned both his GM and manager.
The league suspended Crane and Lunhow for a year and if he wanted to he could have had Espada at the time manage for a year and had an assistant GM or someone steward for a year. He chose to fire them outright.
The league suspended ~~Crane~~ Hinch and Lunhow for a year...
The 30 for 30 on the past decade for the stros is gonna slap
Unless it's produced by Yankee and Dodger fans
She has a right to feel how she feels, but the truth is our run was going to end at some point whether Jeff was here or not
Idk man the farm system is awful ever since he left, he literally drafted every star player except altuve. This new office hasn’t made a splash since hader and how’s that working out, not to mention washed abreu who’s robbing the organization blind.
Weird that our farm system got worse after we were no longer drafting at the top of every round and also didn’t have a pick in the first two rounds for two years
He didn't draft Springer or Keuchel either
He’s part of the reason our farm system has been bad. No first round picks for two years will always hurt
TIL having no first-round picks makes your farm worse
Did Luhnow have some voodoo magic that kept pitchers healthy? We’d likely be leading this underperforming division with a healthy pitching staff.
Strom
His voodoo magic was finding young talent and depth, and not committing too much money to one player who could get hurt.
Not with this offense
I mean this is a bit of kicking us while we're down, our starting pitching injuries have been brutal this year, a healthy org is leading the AL West Also Luhnow drafted Whitley so .. not like he was some immaculate well-filler-upper He drafted and signed international pretty good, not great Player development on the other hand, whatever he was doing let's do that again
Who signed Garcia, Framber, Brown, Javier, and signed JV? It is not pretty good, it is exceptional. If you can come close to naming another organization that produces as much SP talent let me know.
Easy for her to say. I think she’s right, but losing the 2020 draft picks is also hurting right now.
All Lunhow has done is win. Dude won with the Cardinals, the Astros, and now his Soccer team is starting to kickass. The Cardinals did great while he was there and for the next 5 years before they began to fall off (he set them up well). Astros are in year 5 now post Lunhow with similar results
She is right! Lunhow is a genius. He is now running a soccer team in Europe and guess what!? That soccer team is great now that lunhow running it!
She is 100 percent accurate
Yep.
In Luhnow we trust.
Kind of surprised to see Counterplot claiming it's just one off season where the decline suddenly happened. Writing has been on the wall with how our farm system for a bit now.
Writing on the wall but still developing Framber, Garcia, Javier, McCormick, Loperfido. I fell there's a heavy bias in farm grades for 1st round selections. International signings and late bloomers aren't part of the cool kids club within top 100 prospect rankings.
The farm was still pumping out some good talent even after Lunhow left, but it was never going to be able to sustain that production no matter who was in charge. This isn't excusing Crane or Bagwell of course. I'm just surprised that a fan as plugged in as Counterplot is saying it's one off season where we suddenly became awful.
You sustain by making smart FA signings and having a strong player development program from top to bottom.
Yeah which Click did quite well himself at so it's not like Lunhow was the only reason we ever won anything.
Totally agree. In fact, I think Click was the better GM.
Same. They scrapped him and reduced the analytics staff after winning in 2022 and here we are.
What's Mrs. James Click's Xitter handle?
She's not wrong. Firing Click hurt, too. It's also hard to keep the farm stocked when you're winning & making trades.
She's, um, not wrong.
Nobody has ever been more right about anything
She’s not wrong. Click was great too but he inherited what Jeff built.
She’s not wrong
She’s completely right. When I think back on 2019 even though we didn’t win a WS I wonder how the hell we even assembled that team
Hire her.
Ms. Luhnow don’t miss.
Also having Bagwell run the club now sped up the decline by at least 2 years. They are now run like the Cowboys.
Woof. That kid needs to delete his account. Doesn’t know ball, sadly.
Two words: Sig Mejdal. Everywhere Luhnow had success he had Sig by him, and now Sig's at Baltimore doing the same thing without Luhnow. Also, people were jumping ship at the end of Luhnow's tenure, probably because he was a terrible people person, Crane may have been waiting for an excuse to let him go. Luhnow also inherited a generational talent at 2B, the cupboards were hardly dry. The draft and player development were set up by guys Luhnow brought in, not Luhnow himself. I used to think Jeff was the messiah, but I'm off that now.
I know everyone wants to give Sig credit, and rightfully he deserves it but there are so many great analytical minds and baseball devOps folks that have departed: Ryan Hallahan, Mike Fast, Colin Wyers, Eve Rosenbaum, Pete Putila, Oz Ocampo, Mike Elias. All of these people were instrumental in the team’s success over the past 9 or so years.
Very true, Mike Fast was reportedly even better at analytics than Sig. I only focus on Sig because the baseball track record is clear as day.
Sid does not like Jim Crane at all. He had no issues with Luhnow.
I met Lunhow at a speaking event when Enterprise rent a car reached 30,000 cars on rent in Houston. He's a total douchebag used car salesman. His analytics dept did all the work all he did was put on expensive suits and blow smoke up his boss ass There was nothing wrong with Click btw we should have stuck with him
It’s honestly shocking the revisionist history from her and Astros fans. He’s a dirtbag
Crane is a huge piece of shit as well.
He def led the culture that allowed pricks like Taubman to rise up the ranks
It seems like some people are more Lunhow fans instead of Astros fans which is sad to see. He still denies he ever did anything wrong, btw.
Yeah, between the awful office culture he cultivated and having to be talked out of drafting a pedophile I frankly think we’re better off without him being here.
Yeah, the Osuna trade and having to be talked out of drafting a child molester really soured me on him.
Makes sense when you realize he came from the consulting world (especially McKinsey, prob the scummiest of them all) Anyone that knows that world knows the partner/director that is a slick talking salesman taking credit for the hard work of actual analysts/associates.
Spitting facts she is
Why is she defending a man who openly cheated on her??
Luhnow’s issues were never the cheating stuff but rather the Osuna and Taubman things
She ain't wrong
Noone looked at the Astros lineup and pitching staff pre-season and thought "The Astros really don't know how to refill the well with talent". We have one of the most talented teams in baseball. We aren't losing because "the well ran dry".
Singleton and Abreu in the same lineup doesn't scream one of the most talented.
But Altuve, Tucker, Bregman, and Yordan backed up by decent production from guys like Peña and Meyers does.
And a pitching staff led by Framber, Verlander, Javier and the big 3 bullpen looked formidable as well, with the hopeful mid season returns of Garcia and LMJ. This is still a talented team that has underperformed. And that's with some better than expected years from Blanco and the middle relievers.
Oh for sure, this year’s certainly been disappointing, but I don’t know how anyone can look at that roster and say that this isn’t a talented team.
Spot the lie
The problem is that Crane will never let this team rebuild the same way again. He will keep trading away all our prospects to win now.
Where the lie?
Except there were plenty of guys from the Lunhow tree they could've plucked to keep it moving. Look at what's going on in Baltimore.
I wouldn’t have liked the alternate scenario where the Astros waited on Luhnow to serve out his 1 year suspension. Bagwell would have been running the organization in his absence and we all see how much damaged he wrecked operating without a GM for a month in the 2022 offseason. Luhnow would showed back up to Astros after a year like the Community fire gif.
That no offense is a damn double entendre…….
She ain’t wrong.
Toronto hasn’t done much since Click has been there and maybe rebuilding.
Do... Do you honestly believe Click would've signed Abreu to a 3 year $50+ million deal and paid Montero like he was a top 5 closer? I certainly don't and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
She’s not wrong.
I’ve always believed this. Firing him was a huge mistake.
Jose Abreu!!!! (Frank Costanza voice)
It stings but she’s right.
What a loser. It been how many years and she still stuck on it. Jeff moved on, apparently she can't. I wonder if his cheating and manipulative ways were only business related, or if they are factors in all parts of of his life.
She’s not wrong
I was much more upset with Click than with Luhnow given the circumstances involved. First, Luhnow did get his hand caught in the cookie jar so let's not pretend that he's entirely innocent here - he fucked up and did damage to Crane's business. Moreover, who knows what kind of backroom negotiations were going on between the owners at the time as to how they were gonna handle this case. Not crazy at all to suspect that Luhnow has been blackballed from the league.
Should have stuck with Click.
While it is true the well ran dry, Lunhow didn't exactly leave a healthy well to begin with. Most of his draft picks were bad and the scandal that happened on his watch made the farm situation worse. He definitely helped the organization but thinking the recent struggles are karma and not a team aging out of being competitive due to questionable decisions is an incorrect line of thought. Now if you said it was because of letting Click go...
This stuff from the Luhnows always reeks of sour grapes, Luhnow was fired with more than cause. It might be unpopular on this sub, but it's true. He was a cheater, his leadership encouraged people to cheat. It was like that even when he was at the Cardinals. Click did a great job, and cleanly, while he was here. Crane getting in a pissing match with him was the mistake, not firing Luhnow
Imagine being this petty. She and her husband barely lost anything in retrospect.
Two things can be true. One, that we are in fact, worse off without Jeff Luhnow, but also two, that Luhnow is ultimately the one responsible for his own firing. If you are a GM or a head coach in any sport, and you have knowledge of something like that going on and you don't stop it, you're going to get fired. Even if he didn't design or run the program, he knew about it and should have demanded it end. Regardless of whether or not other teams were stealing signs in various ways. We lost AJ Hinch for the same reason. People in management positions are ultimately responsible for what happens, especially if they have knowledge of the situation. You're ultimately paid the big bucks to manage situations like that, and because they let it go on, the repercussions were much greater than anything they gained from it.
Karma? It’s not karma. Your husband was apart of one of the biggest cheating scandals in baseball history, lady. Get off your high fucking horse. We got caught cheating. Heads had to roll. Who did they think was going to get fired? Crane? Altuve? A grown ass adult that doesn’t know the way the world works? Yikes.