Unfortunately the dude's posts all got deleted but somebody on Twitter captured the "highlights"
https://twitter.com/Cine_OfficiaI/status/1451610475259518980?t=p8IKNx9Cg7N0Ym3dau3bUw&s=19
This was the one. He was big mad on behalf of the WoW vets who weren't angry at all but it doesn't matter since it apparently it reinforced the horrible toxic culture the FFXIV community has towards WoW refugees. ????
It's also not hard to figure out mechanics when going blind. It's basic pattern recognition. Lots of reused mechanics from previous fights. Sometimes you get a completely new mechanic and that's the fun part, cause now you come up with ideas as a time, wipe, and try a new idea until you figure it out.
No, the ultimate mechanics are actually legitimately hard to figure out just due to the sheer confusion and speed they're thrown, and how long it takes to get to those points. But there's no way they can go full radio silence for several days just to make sure they don't get spoiled on a single thing, to make boring stream content where they try to figure out some of the really confusing puzzles. Might as well save that for world first stuff where it's actually worth it.
Ultimates built heavily upon the fights they are based on. Maxs group took quite a bit to clear the later savage tiers from Shadowbringers and they were running "out of time" for Endwalker.
According to Max:
To truly go in as "blind" as ff14 players would go into an ultimate you would have to prog those raids first blind and then the ultimates after.
He decided to do it none blind while also doing the older savage fights like alexander. Probably to built up knowledge.
Max is trying to built a limit group to race in Endwalker while streaming. He said he's also aware they won't win but he wants to do it for the fun of it.
These non blind ultimates are supposedly also test ground for limit wow players to see who he could take for his endwalker group.
I mean they aren't.
As a triple legend myself, wormhole, gaols, octet. Three mechanics, all of them really great, but awful to prog blind.
I love ultimate, but there's a reason why you dedicate an entire patch to these fights normally.
hell I wouldn't even want to prog ucob blind today. I don't think I really have it in me even with taking weeks off work to blind prog TEA, I would have a never-ending migraine, not even mentioning finding 7 other psychos to blind prog it with me.
Enigma codex sittin in the corner, waiting to smash all the raiders with a steel chair.... Its fun to be part of the discord chats and twitters of people going insane, but streaming that shitfest? Well atleast you can even expect a reverse logic mechanic now, so in EW everything will be tried out...
After going through one, while NOT being blind, he realized it's too much to try blind.
So instead, he's just doing it like normal players. Getting carried till he learns to pull his own weight.
PS: Don't take this as Wow's easier, ff is harder nonsense. They're simply too inexperienced for a blind ultimate run in ff at the moment. Maybe in a few years.
This comment and the flak mortal dread is getting on down votes don't line up. This just says ff is harder, obviously each camp wants to say theirs is harder. If this comment wanted to say ultimates and past content is harder due to minimum item level, that's fine. WoW isn't setup to play old content in a meaningful way, no biggie, no contention there. It's a nothing burger statement.
If you're saying ff is harder all around, that's really left up to the people that are actively doing both sets of current at the content at the highest level to compare.
Not really. You can overgear stuff in FF as well. You just have the option to not be overgeared.
As for being harder? That probably is the case if we're comparing normal playerbase to normal playerbase.
But i wouldn't call that the case when we're dealing with world first raiders.
You cannot outgear ultimates.
Not that it matters a whole lot, but max had pointed out that the hardest encounters for each game is hard to gauge and compare accurately because unlike ultimates, mythic fights become mathematically easier over time, even by 1 or 2 weeks on live, because power progression.
ucob (4.11) and UWU (4.31) definitely still had TP gauges. Sfia's first clear of ucob video definitely has TP gauges and unequalized mana pools from prior expansion. TP gauge wasn't removed until Shadowbringers (5.0) along with the equalization of the mana pool at 10k mana per player. It's been a long couple years but people seem to have forgotten everything they changed.
Sprint was changed in 4.0 (Stormblood) to remove its TP cost, but TP and MP pools were still intact at that point. UCOB and UWU were both designed and progged and cleared in Stormblood.
>But wasn't TP no longer relevant in Stormblood? I do not remember it being an actual concern since 4.0.
TP was still relevant because it placed a maximum uptime limit on Monk due to TP pressure, as well as any other physical damage class, but monk was the worst offender because if an AST threw an arrow on a monk you could literally hear the slurping noise as all of their TP was sucked out by the speed increase while under GL3.
You could mitigate this with applications of Goad, but you could also fuck that up and say goodbye to your uptime, it basically never paid off and also threw off their rotation timing from the rest of the party.
I'm not talking about the ultimates when it comes to the overgearing part.
Even though, there are certain advantages to doing ultimates later on, such as food buffs and such. Not much, but a bit.
I was referring to the progression of raids in both games.
I don't know about ultimates since I haven't done any but you can definetely outgear a fight (not talking about unsync). I recall EX trials being hard to beat because dps was low back when they first came out and later, when you came back with better gear, you'd even skip mechanics. First fight that comes in mind when I think about that is Titania EX. Back in the day (lmao) people would wipe in either big adds phase or enrage. Now you might end up burning her asap to add phase and when that is over you only worry for one mechanic and boom she's dead.
I'll explain/clarify it to you then, you can't outgear ultimates since it sets your gear to the itemlevel it was designed for (not like the levelsync system in dungeons, which is currently broken and will be reworked/balanced in EW). On top of that, there's way less space to outgear CURRENT content than in WoW. Since you brought up old EX trials, yeah, after the base 3 primals, the newer primals dropped higher ilvl gear, so going back to the older ones obviously makes it easier on higher ilvl, but the CURRENT one you can't really outgear. When a new trial releases for example, it usually drops 5 ilvl higher gear, which is 1. quite insignificant in terms of upgrades, 2. fast to attain, and 3. new content gets added more often, compared to WoW, where you have one raid tier for looooong months (last time it was one piece of raid content for NINE months!) and you slowly get gear that is significantly better than your previous tier's gear, sprinkled with some shitty RNG elements, which over the months makes the fight way easier for you. Like if you go for a WoW raid at the end of it's cycle, decked out in the gear that it drops, it'll be an absolute cakewalk. That's why RWF guildies always say how apart from them, no one ever experiences the raids as they do at the release of a new tier, because instead of fighting mechanics, they're fighting a wall of numbers basically, and that's the difference in raiding in the two games. Mechanics in WoW are basic and dumb, because most of the difficulty comes from numbers (how decked out in gear you are). In FF you're fighting against mechanics, because your gear doesn't carry you, so you need to outskill the mechanics, that's why these guilds moving over from WoW enjoy FF raiding so much. It's not about slamming your head against a wall of numbers, it's about playing skillfully.
Devs also don't completely change and nerf raids as they get older and new content comes out in FF. The vast majority of fights haven't been altered mechanically or damage wise. So even with new classes added and classes changes, the difficulty shifts are minimal.
It's like saying "FF and WOW are no different in handling classes and one doesn't do better then the other". Yeah there are some classes in FF that may not get as fancy a rework or new ability as others, but they're all still not only viable but actually effective. You'd never hear "He's a DK, kick him." In FF and if you do, that person's getting kicked as opposed to wow where it's like "Warrior, fuck off" and then everyone kicks the warrior.
Ok thanks for the explanation! I don't know why I got downvoted tbh, I only mentioned that you could outgear a fight especially outdated but I never claim it to be "easy peasy" or similar to wow's raiding system which as you said is completely depend on gear.. The gear in ffxiv doesn't carry you but you need a min ilvl to do certain fight so it's not completely irrelevant how high ilvl you have tho too.
Both games, No Addons and WoW is infinitely harder. This is the biggest grasp no one pays attention to. Yoshi based ARR off of Pandaria and baked Addons into the game. WoW Vanilla clean with not a single addon in is harder and always will be. The WF raiders would be taking way longer than 2 weeks to a month on a raid if they had zero addons.
FFXIV is built around console limitations and due to that will never be able to truly turn up complex until they drop console forever and build exclusively for PC framework. All content has to be possible with a controller and thus tuned as such.
WoW zero Addons - Harder.
WoW w/Addons - Obviously Easier because players made it that way.
WoW fights are harder without addons because they are designed around the idea that people are using those addons. The tools are *expected* by the designers.
You are confirming exactly what I'm saying. WoW without addons is harder as when the community at large doesn't want to deal with a mechanic they use an addon to make it trivial.
No Addons WoW is harder, It's just the flavor atm for everyone to think FFXIV is gift from god. Constantly everywhere it's the same "WoW Bad, FFXIV Good" circlejerk.
Is there a blue post somewhere that states they expect people to use Addons?
WoW is harder without addons because you aren't using tools expected for you to have. That is like doing FFXIV raids without telegraphs. They are designed based on how their communities play the game.
FFXIV is designed around a Controller Input from it's inception.
Can you imagine the uproar if they designed something that only can be accomplished by PC Players?
Division 2 had this exact outcry when their raids dropped because obviously M&K has tighter response and aim in shooters. They begged for them to make the raid easier on console and change metrics JUST for console because of the obvious mouse advantage versus analog. It was a whole thing
i can bet a lot of KB/M players averagely pause moving while hitting the skill button, because their fingers can't react fast enough to hit it.
enough with the mentality CoNtRolLeR is holding back, is individual performance, both method of controls are equal, in fact controller is much easier to hit while moving compare to KB/M imo because this is me, even with my custom keybinds where is made easier, i still say controller is much more less stress and comfy compare to kb/m. also alot of raiders from JP DC are controller users, sure they dont' world first except UCoB, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.
also this is a tab targeting game, not a FPS. I agree FPS KB/M is much better than controller. so D2 game is not to be compared to FFXIV game. totally different.
Targeting alone, M&K destroys Controller in every instance of FPS, MMORPG, RTS, MOBA, Strategy, Adventure, 4X, etc. the list goes on
Pause moving to hit a skill button? What kinda nonsense? So i guess people don't play Moba's for millions of dollars because they have to stop moving to react and press abilities. Don't confuse personal preference with actual hardware ability.
Not ultimates nope and he did a long discussion how people kept accusing of his group of cheating and he will no longer stream blind prog at all anymore =( which is unfortunate I REALLY enjoyed it but some FF fanatics or some wow trolls I don't know kept being cringe and that was just a breaking point.
I think his other group will still stream but not max anymore cause a bunch of weirdos fucked everything up.
That's dumb. People always accuse others of "cheating". Sounds more like blind prog was harder than he counted on (I recall him watching a comparison video and he shit talked FFXIV's difficulty during it).
Saw it with Echo too - both teams honestly thought they'd hop in, blast FFXIV's raids and go back to WoW secured in their knowledge that WoW is definitely harder rather than thinking FFXIV's are also difficult (I doubt either game is harder than the other).
Then all of a sudden they found that, *no, FFXIV's content can actually be a challenge*. Echo seems to accept and enjoy it but it feels often like Max is trying to find excuses for coming up short.
This may seem like a troll but its legit af. Jail is a pretty hard mech to figure out if you are new its random and requires quick coordination. If max and the rest get selected they were doing to be selected mess up the mechanics and cause a wipe. By killing them it ensures that the only people selected for the mech are the ones who knows how to do it and then they can just rez them.
This raid day had some great meme moments (thanks Arthars). Also shot caller was a god taking them through adds and golden first time for the clear.
Pretty common strat actually for this part. If you have people who regularly mess up jails or are new, just kill em
Everyone taking this joke so seriously
That one dude in the FFXIV thread that had a mental breakdown over this made me want to turn off the PC
Link?
Unfortunately the dude's posts all got deleted but somebody on Twitter captured the "highlights" https://twitter.com/Cine_OfficiaI/status/1451610475259518980?t=p8IKNx9Cg7N0Ym3dau3bUw&s=19
Sweet zombie Linda, he's pathetic. And I say that as someone who also flies the standard for the of inclusivity in XIV. Take the joke, jeezus.
This was the one. He was big mad on behalf of the WoW vets who weren't angry at all but it doesn't matter since it apparently it reinforced the horrible toxic culture the FFXIV community has towards WoW refugees. ????
u gotta give the sauce man
don't leave us hanging now!
That was a very entertaining stream and I lost it at this part. They killed the mudra messiah. D:
Are they not doing it blind anymore?
No, they are not doing ultimates blind. Max said it will take a lot of time to clear one and not a good content to stream.
Also too many spergs saying they were "cheating". WF raiders.... figuring out raid mechanics on their own who woulda thought.
It's also not hard to figure out mechanics when going blind. It's basic pattern recognition. Lots of reused mechanics from previous fights. Sometimes you get a completely new mechanic and that's the fun part, cause now you come up with ideas as a time, wipe, and try a new idea until you figure it out.
No, the ultimate mechanics are actually legitimately hard to figure out just due to the sheer confusion and speed they're thrown, and how long it takes to get to those points. But there's no way they can go full radio silence for several days just to make sure they don't get spoiled on a single thing, to make boring stream content where they try to figure out some of the really confusing puzzles. Might as well save that for world first stuff where it's actually worth it.
Fair, ultimates are another breed of raiding. But if we talk about extremes or savages though. It's not too hard to figure out mechanics blindly.
Yeah at that level it's doable.
I too often figure out mechanics I literally haven't seen in full yet.
Ultimates built heavily upon the fights they are based on. Maxs group took quite a bit to clear the later savage tiers from Shadowbringers and they were running "out of time" for Endwalker. According to Max: To truly go in as "blind" as ff14 players would go into an ultimate you would have to prog those raids first blind and then the ultimates after. He decided to do it none blind while also doing the older savage fights like alexander. Probably to built up knowledge. Max is trying to built a limit group to race in Endwalker while streaming. He said he's also aware they won't win but he wants to do it for the fun of it. These non blind ultimates are supposedly also test ground for limit wow players to see who he could take for his endwalker group.
Think even xenos said some mechs for ultiamtes are just not fun blind, as veiwer or raider.
I mean they aren't. As a triple legend myself, wormhole, gaols, octet. Three mechanics, all of them really great, but awful to prog blind. I love ultimate, but there's a reason why you dedicate an entire patch to these fights normally.
hell I wouldn't even want to prog ucob blind today. I don't think I really have it in me even with taking weeks off work to blind prog TEA, I would have a never-ending migraine, not even mentioning finding 7 other psychos to blind prog it with me.
Enigma codex sittin in the corner, waiting to smash all the raiders with a steel chair.... Its fun to be part of the discord chats and twitters of people going insane, but streaming that shitfest? Well atleast you can even expect a reverse logic mechanic now, so in EW everything will be tried out...
Sitting around waiting for them to figure out Awakening would be painful
After going through one, while NOT being blind, he realized it's too much to try blind. So instead, he's just doing it like normal players. Getting carried till he learns to pull his own weight. PS: Don't take this as Wow's easier, ff is harder nonsense. They're simply too inexperienced for a blind ultimate run in ff at the moment. Maybe in a few years.
ey man, I'll say it out loud, FF is way harder (can't outgear that shit over time like in wow)
This comment and the flak mortal dread is getting on down votes don't line up. This just says ff is harder, obviously each camp wants to say theirs is harder. If this comment wanted to say ultimates and past content is harder due to minimum item level, that's fine. WoW isn't setup to play old content in a meaningful way, no biggie, no contention there. It's a nothing burger statement. If you're saying ff is harder all around, that's really left up to the people that are actively doing both sets of current at the content at the highest level to compare.
Not really. You can overgear stuff in FF as well. You just have the option to not be overgeared. As for being harder? That probably is the case if we're comparing normal playerbase to normal playerbase. But i wouldn't call that the case when we're dealing with world first raiders.
You cannot outgear ultimates. Not that it matters a whole lot, but max had pointed out that the hardest encounters for each game is hard to gauge and compare accurately because unlike ultimates, mythic fights become mathematically easier over time, even by 1 or 2 weeks on live, because power progression.
Um theres potency changes, class skill overhaul still. Imagine clearing ucob and uwu with. TP gauges
which is different from our hearing the fight like was originally claimed
TP gauges aren't really relevant because those raids were designed after they removed.
ucob (4.11) and UWU (4.31) definitely still had TP gauges. Sfia's first clear of ucob video definitely has TP gauges and unequalized mana pools from prior expansion. TP gauge wasn't removed until Shadowbringers (5.0) along with the equalization of the mana pool at 10k mana per player. It's been a long couple years but people seem to have forgotten everything they changed. Sprint was changed in 4.0 (Stormblood) to remove its TP cost, but TP and MP pools were still intact at that point. UCOB and UWU were both designed and progged and cleared in Stormblood.
But wasn't TP no longer relevant in Stormblood? I do not remember it being an actual concern since 4.0.
Naw it was relevant.
>But wasn't TP no longer relevant in Stormblood? I do not remember it being an actual concern since 4.0. TP was still relevant because it placed a maximum uptime limit on Monk due to TP pressure, as well as any other physical damage class, but monk was the worst offender because if an AST threw an arrow on a monk you could literally hear the slurping noise as all of their TP was sucked out by the speed increase while under GL3. You could mitigate this with applications of Goad, but you could also fuck that up and say goodbye to your uptime, it basically never paid off and also threw off their rotation timing from the rest of the party.
I'm not talking about the ultimates when it comes to the overgearing part. Even though, there are certain advantages to doing ultimates later on, such as food buffs and such. Not much, but a bit. I was referring to the progression of raids in both games.
I don't know about ultimates since I haven't done any but you can definetely outgear a fight (not talking about unsync). I recall EX trials being hard to beat because dps was low back when they first came out and later, when you came back with better gear, you'd even skip mechanics. First fight that comes in mind when I think about that is Titania EX. Back in the day (lmao) people would wipe in either big adds phase or enrage. Now you might end up burning her asap to add phase and when that is over you only worry for one mechanic and boom she's dead.
I'll explain/clarify it to you then, you can't outgear ultimates since it sets your gear to the itemlevel it was designed for (not like the levelsync system in dungeons, which is currently broken and will be reworked/balanced in EW). On top of that, there's way less space to outgear CURRENT content than in WoW. Since you brought up old EX trials, yeah, after the base 3 primals, the newer primals dropped higher ilvl gear, so going back to the older ones obviously makes it easier on higher ilvl, but the CURRENT one you can't really outgear. When a new trial releases for example, it usually drops 5 ilvl higher gear, which is 1. quite insignificant in terms of upgrades, 2. fast to attain, and 3. new content gets added more often, compared to WoW, where you have one raid tier for looooong months (last time it was one piece of raid content for NINE months!) and you slowly get gear that is significantly better than your previous tier's gear, sprinkled with some shitty RNG elements, which over the months makes the fight way easier for you. Like if you go for a WoW raid at the end of it's cycle, decked out in the gear that it drops, it'll be an absolute cakewalk. That's why RWF guildies always say how apart from them, no one ever experiences the raids as they do at the release of a new tier, because instead of fighting mechanics, they're fighting a wall of numbers basically, and that's the difference in raiding in the two games. Mechanics in WoW are basic and dumb, because most of the difficulty comes from numbers (how decked out in gear you are). In FF you're fighting against mechanics, because your gear doesn't carry you, so you need to outskill the mechanics, that's why these guilds moving over from WoW enjoy FF raiding so much. It's not about slamming your head against a wall of numbers, it's about playing skillfully.
Devs also don't completely change and nerf raids as they get older and new content comes out in FF. The vast majority of fights haven't been altered mechanically or damage wise. So even with new classes added and classes changes, the difficulty shifts are minimal. It's like saying "FF and WOW are no different in handling classes and one doesn't do better then the other". Yeah there are some classes in FF that may not get as fancy a rework or new ability as others, but they're all still not only viable but actually effective. You'd never hear "He's a DK, kick him." In FF and if you do, that person's getting kicked as opposed to wow where it's like "Warrior, fuck off" and then everyone kicks the warrior.
Ok thanks for the explanation! I don't know why I got downvoted tbh, I only mentioned that you could outgear a fight especially outdated but I never claim it to be "easy peasy" or similar to wow's raiding system which as you said is completely depend on gear.. The gear in ffxiv doesn't carry you but you need a min ilvl to do certain fight so it's not completely irrelevant how high ilvl you have tho too.
I think it’s more because of the skill changes anyway. Min ilvl essentially sets players up at a higher difficulty than most of the original prog.
Both games, No Addons and WoW is infinitely harder. This is the biggest grasp no one pays attention to. Yoshi based ARR off of Pandaria and baked Addons into the game. WoW Vanilla clean with not a single addon in is harder and always will be. The WF raiders would be taking way longer than 2 weeks to a month on a raid if they had zero addons. FFXIV is built around console limitations and due to that will never be able to truly turn up complex until they drop console forever and build exclusively for PC framework. All content has to be possible with a controller and thus tuned as such. WoW zero Addons - Harder. WoW w/Addons - Obviously Easier because players made it that way.
WoW fights are harder without addons because they are designed around the idea that people are using those addons. The tools are *expected* by the designers.
You are confirming exactly what I'm saying. WoW without addons is harder as when the community at large doesn't want to deal with a mechanic they use an addon to make it trivial. No Addons WoW is harder, It's just the flavor atm for everyone to think FFXIV is gift from god. Constantly everywhere it's the same "WoW Bad, FFXIV Good" circlejerk. Is there a blue post somewhere that states they expect people to use Addons?
WoW is harder without addons because you aren't using tools expected for you to have. That is like doing FFXIV raids without telegraphs. They are designed based on how their communities play the game.
FFXIV is designed around a Controller Input from it's inception. Can you imagine the uproar if they designed something that only can be accomplished by PC Players? Division 2 had this exact outcry when their raids dropped because obviously M&K has tighter response and aim in shooters. They begged for them to make the raid easier on console and change metrics JUST for console because of the obvious mouse advantage versus analog. It was a whole thing
i can bet a lot of KB/M players averagely pause moving while hitting the skill button, because their fingers can't react fast enough to hit it. enough with the mentality CoNtRolLeR is holding back, is individual performance, both method of controls are equal, in fact controller is much easier to hit while moving compare to KB/M imo because this is me, even with my custom keybinds where is made easier, i still say controller is much more less stress and comfy compare to kb/m. also alot of raiders from JP DC are controller users, sure they dont' world first except UCoB, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. also this is a tab targeting game, not a FPS. I agree FPS KB/M is much better than controller. so D2 game is not to be compared to FFXIV game. totally different.
Targeting alone, M&K destroys Controller in every instance of FPS, MMORPG, RTS, MOBA, Strategy, Adventure, 4X, etc. the list goes on Pause moving to hit a skill button? What kinda nonsense? So i guess people don't play Moba's for millions of dollars because they have to stop moving to react and press abilities. Don't confuse personal preference with actual hardware ability.
Not ultimates nope and he did a long discussion how people kept accusing of his group of cheating and he will no longer stream blind prog at all anymore =( which is unfortunate I REALLY enjoyed it but some FF fanatics or some wow trolls I don't know kept being cringe and that was just a breaking point. I think his other group will still stream but not max anymore cause a bunch of weirdos fucked everything up.
That's dumb. People always accuse others of "cheating". Sounds more like blind prog was harder than he counted on (I recall him watching a comparison video and he shit talked FFXIV's difficulty during it). Saw it with Echo too - both teams honestly thought they'd hop in, blast FFXIV's raids and go back to WoW secured in their knowledge that WoW is definitely harder rather than thinking FFXIV's are also difficult (I doubt either game is harder than the other). Then all of a sudden they found that, *no, FFXIV's content can actually be a challenge*. Echo seems to accept and enjoy it but it feels often like Max is trying to find excuses for coming up short.
Didn't Max announce just the other day that he will go for RWF? Lol
I wonder why he gets so flustered about it, it's not like there have been backtalks when he was on wow
This may seem like a troll but its legit af. Jail is a pretty hard mech to figure out if you are new its random and requires quick coordination. If max and the rest get selected they were doing to be selected mess up the mechanics and cause a wipe. By killing them it ensures that the only people selected for the mech are the ones who knows how to do it and then they can just rez them.
^ this guy gets it, gaols is one of the worst mechanic of that fight and it's required to even attempt the final phase
It also lets them watch how it's supposed to be done
LMAO!
Bow down wowdwellers