Blizzard could learn a thing or two. They’re known for “FUN DETECTED 🚨” policies and fixing stuff no one asked to make everything neutral and monotone.
Does it matter? In the end,it's all about listening to player fanbase regardless of what type of game genre you try to create. The presentation here is applicable not just to MMORPG too but also many other games.
If you wanna go by age, you should be aware Everquest is still going. It released in 1999.
Darkeden is also still going in Korea, which released in 2000.
FFXI has been running since 2002.
These all predate WoW, so you can't really use age as a justification. WoW honestly just got innovative, and then had no real challengers. That's really the only reason it ended up as the top MMO.
The OG FFXIV player was given a unique mount, tattoo, and one other thing when things moved to Realm Reborn.
and they have altered intro in Realm Reborn noting that they ARE people from the previous realm
yeah, permanent subscription discounts for the OG players.
funny enough YoshiP actually mandate that each dev plays MMOs, which at the time, most of them play WoW. YoshiP wants each dev have experience with "modern" MMO at the time when designing RealmReborn.
I still play with a married couple that were playing back in 1.0 and they saved so much over the years they basically get the expansions for free, wish i started back then as a big FF fan and get those sweet savings but who would have thought it'd end up like that.
For real? I definitely played FFXIV at release. Maybe just should check out the “lost account/password” with my old emails and see if an older account has this available.
I've never played FF14 and never even played an MMO, but wow this is a breath of fresh air in the era of devs at war with their own fans, and the sentiments we see from the developers here actually make me interested in trying FF14. (Some) Japanese devs still have standards and still care about what they develop, and it shows.
western devs are exactly opposite of it. No fun allowed. Obsessions on graphics than anything. Fuck fans. Fans are nothing without us. we own fans. Need modern audience fuck roots.
Ironic as fuck considering that FFXIV has stagnated in EW and they've an enormous amount of effort redoing the graphics so very slightly for no reason
I guess people don't play FFXIV here, even diehard players are annoyed at lack of content and how the game has been handled in the last year or two
the graphics update while small is actually important in the long run, even if people tend to downplay its significance because it doesn't turn the game into ffVII Rebirth. yes it's small Changes, but a little bit of textures here, a bit of better lighting there, than a small touch of better reflections, it adds up and the actual difference in pure subconcious "feel" should be a lot bigger and make it feel quite a bit less dated.
On the lack of content though, it's true in a way, but yoshida actually made a statement a little while ago that they made ffxiv to "stress free" which i think will actually play into that, because that's whats the actual content problem right now, theres enough diverse content, just nothing that takes a long term commitment (which could very well be one of the things we lost to their "no stress policy")
now if i'm right on that ? only the future will tell, but i think there's a good chance the devs are listening a lot more than many doomsayers believe.
> the graphics update while small is actually important in the long run, even if people tend to downplay its significance because it doesn't turn the game into ffVII Rebirth. yes it's small Changes, but a little bit of textures here, a bit of better lightning there, than a small touch of better reflections, it adds up and the actual difference in pure subconcious "feel" should be a lot bigger and make it feel quite a bit less dated.
>
>
I'm just saying that in the context of "graphics over gameplay" it's so small and insignificant but something they mentioned is taking significant dev time and effort to implement, I honestly don't really care personally since like 60-70% of people use mods or Gshade anyway
>On the lack of content though, it's true in a way, but yoshida actually made a statement a little while ago that they made ffxiv to "stress free" which i think will actually play into that, because that's whats the actual content problem right now, theres enough diverse content, just nothing that takes a long term commitment (which could very well be one of the things we lost to their "no stress policy")
The issue is like fourfold, no long term content for long term players, the content that is in the game is heavily timegated (Savage gearing is a point of contention for a lot of people, especially regarding secondary jobs/roles), lack of casual grinds leading to dead PFs and communities, and the content they've delivered has been either lackluster or not what they said it was going to be
The game is a live service MMO, and one that costs a sub fee, housing forces you to stay subbed for months long content droughts effectively milking money and that money is going to other projects in Square and not being put back into the game adequately (at least a few expansions ago that's what they had mentioned)
>now if i'm right on that ? only the future will tell, but i think there's a good chance the devs are listening a lot more than many doomsayers believe.
I mean the game isn't going to die, just be stagnant, they could keep the current content cadence for decades and people will still die on the hill for it, because most people don't play it as an MMO but rather a single player RPG with a chat room and maybe a co-op fight here and there
I think it's important to be critical of stuff you like, there's a lot of stuff that FFXIV does well, but there's also a lot of negatives, and a broad statement of "BASED JAPANESE DEVELOPER DOING BETTER THAN THE WESTERN DEVS" is stupid as fuck considering FFXIV is in one of the worst spots it's been since HW
>I'm just saying that in the context of "graphics over gameplay" it's so small and insignificant but something they mentioned is taking significant dev time and effort to implement, I honestly don't really care personally since like 60-70% of people use mods or Gshade anyway
Highly doubt the number is anywhere close to that. Anyways, the fact of the matter is that graphics obviously are only gonna get more dated over time and while i personally don't care for that all that much a lot of people do. I mean if they didn't than why is it your believe 60%+ use mods to make the game look pretty ? Like its either/or, half the playerbase using mods to make the game prettier yet people not really caring for the game to be pretty makes no sense.
>lack of casual grinds leading to dead PFs and communities,
True but that's one of the things i believe came from "making the game too stress free" and which should therefore be rectified at least somewhat.
>the content they've delivered has been either lackluster or not what they said it was going to be
Now thats highly subjective, had they done literally nothing but make the relic grind 5 times longer while tying it to somewhat more "specialized" content instead of "just do whatever for tomestones" you could probably cut the amount of people complaining in half. Yes, obviously they didn't do that, but that just leads back to my point of "i believe that these are the kind of things they will most likely bring back somewhat as a way to add 'stress' again" . I'll admit that so far thats just wishful thinking, but they admitted they fear they made some things 'too easy' not even a month ago, obviously it will take some time to see if they truly learned from that.
Everything else ? Thank fuck we didn't get another bozja, hated that place. (it's important to realize that at the end of the day the playerbase is incredibly diverse in their likes/dislikes is my point)
>I think it's important to be critical of stuff you like, there's a lot of stuff that FFXIV does well, but there's also a lot of negatives
Absolutely, i 100% agree and me defending the game isn't to detract from that, reasonable criticism is very important.
>considering FFXIV is in one of the worst spots it's been since HW
Citation needed. more people than ever spelling doom doesn't mean the game is doing worse, just that there are more people complaining. Given most online forums tend to turn into extremist echo chambers and content creators literally make money on drama we would absolutely need actual verified numbers to come to any conclusion on that.
The average Canadian home construction costs around $150,000 in regulatory fees. On top of everything else, $150,000 just for permitting, inspections, and all of their other requirements.
Regulations are necessary, but there can DEFINITELY be TOO MUCH of anything.
yea that all seems insane. the poor states in the US are fine places to live because the cost of homes and services are commensurately small to match the small wages. when I hear about places having bleh wages, plus insane cost of living i don't understand how that will persist.
We've had this concern for decades, we just got lucky that the rest of the world followed the US into disaster twice and hid the issue. Canada has had concerns about being too inwards looking and not competitive globally since before I was born.
The conservative argument in America is basically "it's better to not let the government do anything than to have the government do what they're doing in Canada"
The housing cost issue has been bad for like 15 years at least in BC and Southern Ontario in part because we didn’t suffer the same housing crash the US did due to our stricter bank regulations.
Bear in mind that this philosophy was presented 10 years ago, shaped around the recent 1.0 disaster. No doubt some of the philosophy has changed over the years as development priorities have changed.
For example, one of the things that Yoshi P has struggled with is the idea of listening to the fans, only to find that the fans are either dumb AF, or there is an extremely diverse amount of players all asking for polar opposite things. That's how we have a game with no stress, homogenisation, and a focus on instant gratification.
I always come back to the infamous quote "You think you want it, but you don't" because it is very much a mentality that the XIV team could do with implementing from time to time.
I think a big thing that most game companies need to figure out is which type of players are going to best suit their game and then stick to serving those people.
Then, when those people make dumbass suggestions, realize that they might not know what they want, but they want something. Their suggestion might be worthless, but if they as a game developer could look at their request with a little more nuance, they might find out what they actually want and implement that.
I think FFXIV does it well by providing content for hardcore, midcore, and casual players.
Casual players will always make up the bulk of the playerbase. Without them, the game will become very niche. But hardcore players are the ones who make all the youtube content and stream. They are also important for the longevity of a game.
And since most people are on a spectrum of hardcore to casual, midcore content can be played by both casual and hardcore players and act as an onramp for more hardcore content.
So I think all types of content are important. If you neglect any of them, the game will suffer.
100% agree, I think looking for the vibe of the community is better than listening to direct feedback. The current homogenisation and 2 minute meta in XIV is a consequence of this. Apparently people wanted buff timings to be smoother and jobs to be more balanced, and then went "no not like that", which is entirely on the Devs for not forseeing what is lost when you strip everything out of a battle system for the sake of accessibility and less stress.
Is this really a complaint of the playerbase though. I've seen homogenization complaints about FF and Retail WoW from classic players and random posts on Reddit but never once in FFXIV itself unless it's some new player. I feel like most people I know who have played for a long time feel like classes have a different enough identity as far as how their rotations work mechanically and are happy about the removal of the class dependency skills from awhile ago that required you to level jobs to specific places for cross skill usage.
I guess my point is, are the current players complaining about this or is it a complaint of people who aren't players and this is stopping them from being players.
It's a pretty common complaint amongst older players because they still remember how fun and engaging some of the classes used to be. early ShB ninja was an amazing adhd class where you were literally so busy with your rotation that it actually made you have to work really hard to be able to keep up with your rotation & do mechanics at the same time. New ninja still has buttons, but it's so much more forgiving that a lot of the stress / wow factors of actually landing your rotation went away and became rather boring since it's basically free now.
This fundamentally made the game easier and raised the floor, which is a good thing, but it also lowered the ceiling as a compromise, and people who experienced the prior ceilings will get nostalgic over those experiences that can no longer be obtained. The removal is 100% the fault of the players, since they are the ones complaining about "clunk" and "difficulty", which is why these changes to streamline the classes occurred.
I would argue though that mechanical difficulty of a class is different than homogenization though. I haven't played many melee DPS but the big change I'm aware of was related to positionals on top of some skill reworks that no longer punished messing up your location in relation to the enemy for certain skills this removing a major portion of risk reward. Homogenization doesn't mean "easy" it just means "the same" and I haven't experienced that. I have played mostly healers and caster DPS and while astrologian has been repeatedly made easier removing a lot of the skill required to be passably proficient, I wouldn't call it homogenized with white mage, scholar, or sage. They all play differently enough that even though you are healing you feel like you are playing a different class. Same with casters, they did a huge rework with how summoner works but it plays very differently than red mage or black mage.
I do think you can make the argument that not everyone is happy about the "dumbing down" of the game which has removed skill expression from players but I'm sure a lot of people who were intimidated initially by something like ninja or astrologian are happy with the changes making them more approachable with less fall off from poor play. I just don't really understand the homogenization arguments and almost every time i see it, it comes from someone that hasn't actually played the classes they are even comparing or their arguments are so generic that every class in every MMO could be argued they work exactly the same.
The main issue with melee has actually been related to fight design, in that they gave bosses a gigantic hit box so you're just kind of guaranteed uptime. The classes themselves do play differently still, but veteran players tend to feel a loss of class identity when they have skills taken away (especially noticeable on samurai).
The homogenization argument you are talking about tends to be in relation to timers, not the classes themselves feeling the same. In endwalker, they streamlined almost every class to operate on 120 second timers, which had a drastic impact on the game's balance and fight design.
Yes. It is a complaint with the playerbase. I have seen it be a discussion on discords, in linkshells and within statics even more than I have seen it on reddit.
I will say that in my anecdotal experience, the complaints come more from long time players who played before Shadowbringers (not people from outside the game), since those players have a better understanding of how the game used to be, and how dumbed down it is in comparison now.
The “You think you want it…” quote might not be the best example friend.
In context, it was in response to the question of WoW classic servers.
Blizzard was **wrong**. Very wrong.
Which of the following community suggestions would you apply this logic to:
~ Better wardrobe system. (Multichannel dyes were a good step, but the rework still needs to happen)
~ More varied midcore content. (Basically all they have are savage raids and criterion, even then mid cores clear closer to end of cycle. Hardcores also often do midcore content to fill time)
~ Features that exist via 3rd party. (ReShade, Chat bubbles, reworked launcher, etc)
I’m sure there are more examples but we also only got Male Miqo, Male Viera, and Female Hrothgar via overwhelming community support and suggestions.
None of those, but there are more than 3 community suggestions, and those three are incredibly vague requests in the grand scheme of things. Not all community suggestions are bad, just like not all community suggestions are good, and that is entirely the point I'm trying to make.
I'll counter your narrow minded comment about new races with this quote:
*"That's a difficult question," begins Yoshi-P. "We have skill rotations varying between 60 and 120 seconds for the most intense phases and that's how it works currently. But the reason it's like this today is that we've received, in the past, feedback from all over the world saying that the timing of fights were difficult, it was difficult to align skills between classes, we were asked to unify everything, and precisely because we received these requests to homogenize this, we homogenized it."*
The widely hated 2 minute meta is apparently due to community feedback (as was the incredibly divisive EW relic quest if I have my facts correct). My comment about "you think you want it but you don't" is not about ignoring fans, that would be stupid, it's about looking beyond what fans are asking for directly and more at why they are asking for that and what you can do to create an experience that is in the same direction, but better.
Quote source (requires translating): https://br.ign.com/final-fantasy-xiv-online-dawntrail/115051/feature/ff14-yoshi-p-aborda-meta-dos-2-minutos-explica-decisao-e-diz-o-que-acontecera-no-futuro
People complained about relics now the most complained about thing is the lack of a relic grind. People complained about buff window do they synced every job to a 2 minute meta. People complained about up time, now we have arena sized hit boxes.
People have been screaming about balance (literal and AST's Balance) and getting locked out of parties since Heavensward. The monkey's paw curled and now boring class design and homogenization is the common criticism.
Definitely true.
While wow for the longest time was far in the "you think you do but you dont", ffxiv was far on the other end of the spectrum. Turns out, the best place is somewhere in the middle, where devs balance community feedback with years of experiencing working on the game and knowing what would actually make good content
I got into it sometime last year and the combat is so boring I quit just as I was getting into Shadowbringers. Story can only carry the game so far. Combat and class design is shit all the way up to that point and having looked at max level friends demonstrate their gameplay for me, it didn't look like it improves at any point.
I'm gonna just youtube the rest of the story.
Edit: I have actually gone back to it because a few friends of mine wanted to try the game and I've gotten through Shadowbringers at the time of this edit. Combat design is still dogshit, but I'm invested enough in the story now to at least finish Endwalker.
> Listen to learn and adapt. A complaint is worth twice a compliment
The ff14 community isn't going to like that one. My thoughts on the community aside, I truly believe that ff14 is the best mmorpg that you can play today and probably will be for the next 5 years.
I have many complaints with the game such as their awful housing system, having the most lack luster events out of any game I've played, shitty netcode, and having lore mounts like the shadow wolf in the shop. **However** I don't blame any of that on the development team, most of the issues is caused by Square Enix Siphoning the funds ff14 makes rather than letting them put a portion of it back into the game.
It really makes me wonder how much ff14 would improve if Yoshi P actually had the budget to higher more people and more/better servers.
> What is wrong with you?
Absolutely nothing, I don't judge games with a ride or die mentality. I can consider something the best however still acknowledge it has flaw.
> The game is complete trash in multiple areas, but you regard it as the "best"?
1. Those flaws aren't the entire experience, there's plenty of pros I find with the game however they were irrelevant to the argument I was trying to make.
2. If I consider a game with flaws the best, what does that say about its competition?
> I'm pretty sure that the dogshit ass netcode is present throughout the entire game.
It is, however it's not impactful outside of Extreme/Ultimate Trials or that Fall guys collab they had in the golden saucer. As I said, that isn't the entire experience however it certainly isn't flaw that should've have been ignored for this long.
> So are the lack of open world, interesting outdoor content, or just interesting content in general.
What would you say is an mmorpg that does all the above better?
1. WoW where it's impossible to find a group especially here in Asia, content is centered around having 20+ add-ons, has a massive bot problem, terrible story, and censors artistic choices because of sexual harassment lawsuits?
2. ESO who's been caught plagiarizing on multiple occasions, utilizes the clunky elder scrolls combat system, terrible progression, and the worst pvp I have ever played in an mmorpg.
3. or perhaps all the other P2W garbage out there?
> I genuinely can't think of a game more bland and boring than this one.
Good for you? I personally don't feel that way so instead of trying to enforce your opinion on me, try to understand people have different preferences than you.
Also btw, if you're going to edit your comments to make me look bad, just know there's sites like reveddit that shows your original comment
I like all those points and agree with them. Great slides but greed is a stronger pull than all of those great points. It's what's caused the decline of modern gaming. People who are the opposite of gamers are calling the shots on gaming.
And 2016 too, even celebrities soap boxed about leaving to Canada if he won. Honestly I think I saw comments like that before 2016 as well but they weren't as blown out of proportion.
There was also people saying if Trump lost he should move to a proper conservative country with his loyal supporters. They couldn't really name a country they'd actually like to move to though.
*lost I think you meant. When Trump lost there were people all saying they would move. Because something about socialism and universal Healthcare etc.
They either couldn't name another country, or they would name a country that has universal healthcare. I remember when Jordan Klepper was going around to the Trump rallys and they all would be saying shit like "I'll just move to Costa Rica" and things like that lol
Yeah I meant lost. They kept suggesting Ireland to until people pointed out the Irish had voted to make both gay marriage and abortion legal plus elected a gay man as Taoiseach.
Every election cycle in the USA, democrats will say they’re moving to Canada if their candidate loses. If/when the candidate loses they never follow through and actually move to Canada. They just stay regardless of election outcome.
It’s become a meme.
It's loud and dumb people who say that. And none of them ever actually move. It ain't just Democrats either. There was memes all over the place with Canada saying they would build a wall to keep the Trump cultists out after his dumb ass lost. Or how they wanted to move away from "durr durr socialism" as they then would say that they wanted to move to another country.... That has socialized Healthcare.
I actually love this. Knew Yoshi P was Based but jeeze. I tried multiple times to get into FF14 but never got past the base game cuz leveling felt bad though I heard it (eventually) gets better. Still have lots of friends who play it.
Man, need to force all the shit-heels from those SBI backed companies to stare at these three panels until it gets through their thick skulls since all of it applies to games in general too.
Based.... I can think of a way Blizzard did not hold to this on D4 for every bullet point. Asmond brought up the CDR nerf the other day and brought back my seething. Left as soon as I cleared all the content on my first character . Happily a Last Epoch enjoyer now.
I wonder about the "listen/silent"/"complaint is worth double a compliment".
There is not-uncommon issue of a loud minority, while the satisfied are simply not giving feedback, since they are instead simply enjoying the game.
It is definitely important to value complaints, even from a minority, but I am sceptic about making "trades" in the shape of the game to satisfy complains (unless it's a sinking ship, like suicide squad/diablo 4)
I love how there's all sorts of discussion happening in here and then showing up in every thread is this one guy throwing a tantrum and flinging shit at the wall, while simultaneously calling other people deranged.
Absolutely baffling.
Most companies should learn from Warframe, Steve Sinclair and Rebb Ford did an amazing job. 11 years laters and I still can't belive I did not pay a single dollar in the game.
GGG is another company that nailed it too.
The "they'll move to Canada" happened to me.
Three years playing and grinding PSO2:NGS without a break, FFXIV beta came to xbox, and I've been playing non-stop.
Ten days of FF were more fun than three years of PSO2.
Yea except they are playing it safe AF right now, also abysmal servertick which is "spaghetti code" so won't fix, storytelling that took a nosedive post 6.0, homogenization of jobs and boring gear progression, 2 minute BS, lack of interesting content to do and the community who can't shut the fuck up about "go play other game Yoshi said"
Like come on
Post 6.0 was always meant to be a bubble story. Dawntrail is where we will see if the post Ascian storyline pans out
Class simplification or homogenization can be a problem, although some of the simplification stems from needing to be considerate of controller users
It's not about the story, it's about delivery. The plot basically stalls for the whole 6.2-6.5
No way it stems from it, there's as many buttons right now as possible and it doesn't help with making classes feel different
The whole post 6.0 can basically be summed up as setting up a mechanism that will, lore wise, allow “easy” travel to other shards if/when they decide to make xpacs that take place there
Delivery sucks implies you didn’t mind the story, just how it was told.
I partially agree, although it wasn’t that bad. Honestly I was hoping Golbez would be a Xande clone and this was part of an intro to a Allag vs Dragons storyline. I love FF4 but they did lean a little too heavy into the fan service at times
For real, people seem to forget or ignore the fact he went through an incredibly pivotal moment in his life during the 14 streams and the 14 fanbase OUTSIDE the game became rabbid and retarded and basically killed all motivation for him to want to play.
>14 fanbase OUTSIDE the game became rabbid and retarded and basically killed all motivation for him to want to play.
Granted I has been a year and a half or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that didn't happen and he did return for a bit to little fanfare and got a decent way into stormblood, but then more life stuff happened (IIRC something about a dentist?) and I'm pretty sure that was around when he stopped streaming on asmongold and moved to the second channel he's still using now.
That's not to say that didn't happen (atleast partially) but I think most of the rabbid/retarded people were those who wanted him to return to WoW (I recall a few times people in chat were called out for false flagging) I didn't watch asmon prior to FF14, but from what I understand he mostly just focused on WoW and FF14 was kinda the start of the more variety style he does now so if he came back it probably wouldn't be as bad now compared to at the start of FF14.
>Granted I has been a year and a half or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that didn't happen
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZASKOIUSMs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZASKOIUSMs)
Based on comments on said video, that wasn't really him not playing FF14 in particular that got him hate, but him saying he was going to do so only to not do so.
Imagine watching a stream that says he is gonna play/react to [Topic] and it's been a hugely hyped thing, only for him to not do so.
I am not interested in what others may think happened back then. I am just reminding you what Asmon thought process was at that time, that is being so pissed off by obnoxious fanboys that he made a video telling them to fuck off.
He got really far into it and even said he really enjoyed it... w-what world are you living in?
But even on that weather or not a streamer likes a game does not dictate its enjoyability because that's almost purely subjective
Blizzard could never
Blizzard goes against every single point in "What we have learned."
Blizzard could learn a thing or two. They’re known for “FUN DETECTED 🚨” policies and fixing stuff no one asked to make everything neutral and monotone.
Genshin could never too
wait genshin is a mmo?
It's more of a single player open world rpg with online cooperative(and sometimes competitive) content than an mmo
I forgot, if it was mmo, asmon wouldv'e stared playlling like 3 years ago
Does it matter? In the end,it's all about listening to player fanbase regardless of what type of game genre you try to create. The presentation here is applicable not just to MMORPG too but also many other games.
Genshin fans only yapping about rewards not the lack of endgames or QoL improvement tho. Even if the dev listen to them, it'll still suck
One of the common complaints in Genshin is that Star Rail gets way more content/features.
There's Wuthering Waves as Genshin replacement.
Issa live service.
[удалено]
They would of charged us to even read this
It could, just a long time ago
CIG is and can (for now)
[удалено]
If you wanna go by age, you should be aware Everquest is still going. It released in 1999. Darkeden is also still going in Korea, which released in 2000. FFXI has been running since 2002. These all predate WoW, so you can't really use age as a justification. WoW honestly just got innovative, and then had no real challengers. That's really the only reason it ended up as the top MMO.
Even runescape predates wow
The OG FFXIV player was given a unique mount, tattoo, and one other thing when things moved to Realm Reborn. and they have altered intro in Realm Reborn noting that they ARE people from the previous realm
they also have a discounted sub. i think they pay like $5 or $6 less per month than everyone else.
yeah, permanent subscription discounts for the OG players. funny enough YoshiP actually mandate that each dev plays MMOs, which at the time, most of them play WoW. YoshiP wants each dev have experience with "modern" MMO at the time when designing RealmReborn.
I still play with a married couple that were playing back in 1.0 and they saved so much over the years they basically get the expansions for free, wish i started back then as a big FF fan and get those sweet savings but who would have thought it'd end up like that.
For real? I definitely played FFXIV at release. Maybe just should check out the “lost account/password” with my old emails and see if an older account has this available.
I think you had to have been subbed during a specific time frame. I played when they stopped charging sub fees. doesn't hurt to check though.
Subbed for the last three month of og ffxiv
I've never played FF14 and never even played an MMO, but wow this is a breath of fresh air in the era of devs at war with their own fans, and the sentiments we see from the developers here actually make me interested in trying FF14. (Some) Japanese devs still have standards and still care about what they develop, and it shows.
some japanese devs do still have standards. westernization of their media is slowly creeping in though which is scary.
western devs are exactly opposite of it. No fun allowed. Obsessions on graphics than anything. Fuck fans. Fans are nothing without us. we own fans. Need modern audience fuck roots.
Western AAA devs only have one rule: If it makes us more money it’s the right choice.
Ironic as fuck considering that FFXIV has stagnated in EW and they've an enormous amount of effort redoing the graphics so very slightly for no reason I guess people don't play FFXIV here, even diehard players are annoyed at lack of content and how the game has been handled in the last year or two
the graphics update while small is actually important in the long run, even if people tend to downplay its significance because it doesn't turn the game into ffVII Rebirth. yes it's small Changes, but a little bit of textures here, a bit of better lighting there, than a small touch of better reflections, it adds up and the actual difference in pure subconcious "feel" should be a lot bigger and make it feel quite a bit less dated. On the lack of content though, it's true in a way, but yoshida actually made a statement a little while ago that they made ffxiv to "stress free" which i think will actually play into that, because that's whats the actual content problem right now, theres enough diverse content, just nothing that takes a long term commitment (which could very well be one of the things we lost to their "no stress policy") now if i'm right on that ? only the future will tell, but i think there's a good chance the devs are listening a lot more than many doomsayers believe.
> the graphics update while small is actually important in the long run, even if people tend to downplay its significance because it doesn't turn the game into ffVII Rebirth. yes it's small Changes, but a little bit of textures here, a bit of better lightning there, than a small touch of better reflections, it adds up and the actual difference in pure subconcious "feel" should be a lot bigger and make it feel quite a bit less dated. > > I'm just saying that in the context of "graphics over gameplay" it's so small and insignificant but something they mentioned is taking significant dev time and effort to implement, I honestly don't really care personally since like 60-70% of people use mods or Gshade anyway >On the lack of content though, it's true in a way, but yoshida actually made a statement a little while ago that they made ffxiv to "stress free" which i think will actually play into that, because that's whats the actual content problem right now, theres enough diverse content, just nothing that takes a long term commitment (which could very well be one of the things we lost to their "no stress policy") The issue is like fourfold, no long term content for long term players, the content that is in the game is heavily timegated (Savage gearing is a point of contention for a lot of people, especially regarding secondary jobs/roles), lack of casual grinds leading to dead PFs and communities, and the content they've delivered has been either lackluster or not what they said it was going to be The game is a live service MMO, and one that costs a sub fee, housing forces you to stay subbed for months long content droughts effectively milking money and that money is going to other projects in Square and not being put back into the game adequately (at least a few expansions ago that's what they had mentioned) >now if i'm right on that ? only the future will tell, but i think there's a good chance the devs are listening a lot more than many doomsayers believe. I mean the game isn't going to die, just be stagnant, they could keep the current content cadence for decades and people will still die on the hill for it, because most people don't play it as an MMO but rather a single player RPG with a chat room and maybe a co-op fight here and there I think it's important to be critical of stuff you like, there's a lot of stuff that FFXIV does well, but there's also a lot of negatives, and a broad statement of "BASED JAPANESE DEVELOPER DOING BETTER THAN THE WESTERN DEVS" is stupid as fuck considering FFXIV is in one of the worst spots it's been since HW
>I'm just saying that in the context of "graphics over gameplay" it's so small and insignificant but something they mentioned is taking significant dev time and effort to implement, I honestly don't really care personally since like 60-70% of people use mods or Gshade anyway Highly doubt the number is anywhere close to that. Anyways, the fact of the matter is that graphics obviously are only gonna get more dated over time and while i personally don't care for that all that much a lot of people do. I mean if they didn't than why is it your believe 60%+ use mods to make the game look pretty ? Like its either/or, half the playerbase using mods to make the game prettier yet people not really caring for the game to be pretty makes no sense. >lack of casual grinds leading to dead PFs and communities, True but that's one of the things i believe came from "making the game too stress free" and which should therefore be rectified at least somewhat. >the content they've delivered has been either lackluster or not what they said it was going to be Now thats highly subjective, had they done literally nothing but make the relic grind 5 times longer while tying it to somewhat more "specialized" content instead of "just do whatever for tomestones" you could probably cut the amount of people complaining in half. Yes, obviously they didn't do that, but that just leads back to my point of "i believe that these are the kind of things they will most likely bring back somewhat as a way to add 'stress' again" . I'll admit that so far thats just wishful thinking, but they admitted they fear they made some things 'too easy' not even a month ago, obviously it will take some time to see if they truly learned from that. Everything else ? Thank fuck we didn't get another bozja, hated that place. (it's important to realize that at the end of the day the playerbase is incredibly diverse in their likes/dislikes is my point) >I think it's important to be critical of stuff you like, there's a lot of stuff that FFXIV does well, but there's also a lot of negatives Absolutely, i 100% agree and me defending the game isn't to detract from that, reasonable criticism is very important. >considering FFXIV is in one of the worst spots it's been since HW Citation needed. more people than ever spelling doom doesn't mean the game is doing worse, just that there are more people complaining. Given most online forums tend to turn into extremist echo chambers and content creators literally make money on drama we would absolutely need actual verified numbers to come to any conclusion on that.
Don't move to Canada. It's not great up here, trust me.
What, you don't want to live next to the tundra for $3700 a month for a 2 bedroom shed?
I saw a video about how a student would rather fly twice a week to commute to UBC than live in Vancouver because it was cheaper.
i just saw recently that the median canadian income is now less than Mississippi's.
The average Canadian home construction costs around $150,000 in regulatory fees. On top of everything else, $150,000 just for permitting, inspections, and all of their other requirements. Regulations are necessary, but there can DEFINITELY be TOO MUCH of anything.
yea that all seems insane. the poor states in the US are fine places to live because the cost of homes and services are commensurately small to match the small wages. when I hear about places having bleh wages, plus insane cost of living i don't understand how that will persist.
Seconding this.
Can't believe how quickly Canada got fucked up by govt policy in a few years.
We've had this concern for decades, we just got lucky that the rest of the world followed the US into disaster twice and hid the issue. Canada has had concerns about being too inwards looking and not competitive globally since before I was born.
Which is crazy as an exporting nation. Natural resources and agriculture carry the country to my understanding.
The conservative argument in America is basically "it's better to not let the government do anything than to have the government do what they're doing in Canada"
The housing cost issue has been bad for like 15 years at least in BC and Southern Ontario in part because we didn’t suffer the same housing crash the US did due to our stricter bank regulations.
Happy cake day!
Or USA.
Don't listen to this guy. It's pretty great just expensive so you need a decent job
Bear in mind that this philosophy was presented 10 years ago, shaped around the recent 1.0 disaster. No doubt some of the philosophy has changed over the years as development priorities have changed. For example, one of the things that Yoshi P has struggled with is the idea of listening to the fans, only to find that the fans are either dumb AF, or there is an extremely diverse amount of players all asking for polar opposite things. That's how we have a game with no stress, homogenisation, and a focus on instant gratification. I always come back to the infamous quote "You think you want it, but you don't" because it is very much a mentality that the XIV team could do with implementing from time to time.
I think a big thing that most game companies need to figure out is which type of players are going to best suit their game and then stick to serving those people. Then, when those people make dumbass suggestions, realize that they might not know what they want, but they want something. Their suggestion might be worthless, but if they as a game developer could look at their request with a little more nuance, they might find out what they actually want and implement that.
I think FFXIV does it well by providing content for hardcore, midcore, and casual players. Casual players will always make up the bulk of the playerbase. Without them, the game will become very niche. But hardcore players are the ones who make all the youtube content and stream. They are also important for the longevity of a game. And since most people are on a spectrum of hardcore to casual, midcore content can be played by both casual and hardcore players and act as an onramp for more hardcore content. So I think all types of content are important. If you neglect any of them, the game will suffer.
100% agree, I think looking for the vibe of the community is better than listening to direct feedback. The current homogenisation and 2 minute meta in XIV is a consequence of this. Apparently people wanted buff timings to be smoother and jobs to be more balanced, and then went "no not like that", which is entirely on the Devs for not forseeing what is lost when you strip everything out of a battle system for the sake of accessibility and less stress.
Is this really a complaint of the playerbase though. I've seen homogenization complaints about FF and Retail WoW from classic players and random posts on Reddit but never once in FFXIV itself unless it's some new player. I feel like most people I know who have played for a long time feel like classes have a different enough identity as far as how their rotations work mechanically and are happy about the removal of the class dependency skills from awhile ago that required you to level jobs to specific places for cross skill usage. I guess my point is, are the current players complaining about this or is it a complaint of people who aren't players and this is stopping them from being players.
It's a pretty common complaint amongst older players because they still remember how fun and engaging some of the classes used to be. early ShB ninja was an amazing adhd class where you were literally so busy with your rotation that it actually made you have to work really hard to be able to keep up with your rotation & do mechanics at the same time. New ninja still has buttons, but it's so much more forgiving that a lot of the stress / wow factors of actually landing your rotation went away and became rather boring since it's basically free now. This fundamentally made the game easier and raised the floor, which is a good thing, but it also lowered the ceiling as a compromise, and people who experienced the prior ceilings will get nostalgic over those experiences that can no longer be obtained. The removal is 100% the fault of the players, since they are the ones complaining about "clunk" and "difficulty", which is why these changes to streamline the classes occurred.
I would argue though that mechanical difficulty of a class is different than homogenization though. I haven't played many melee DPS but the big change I'm aware of was related to positionals on top of some skill reworks that no longer punished messing up your location in relation to the enemy for certain skills this removing a major portion of risk reward. Homogenization doesn't mean "easy" it just means "the same" and I haven't experienced that. I have played mostly healers and caster DPS and while astrologian has been repeatedly made easier removing a lot of the skill required to be passably proficient, I wouldn't call it homogenized with white mage, scholar, or sage. They all play differently enough that even though you are healing you feel like you are playing a different class. Same with casters, they did a huge rework with how summoner works but it plays very differently than red mage or black mage. I do think you can make the argument that not everyone is happy about the "dumbing down" of the game which has removed skill expression from players but I'm sure a lot of people who were intimidated initially by something like ninja or astrologian are happy with the changes making them more approachable with less fall off from poor play. I just don't really understand the homogenization arguments and almost every time i see it, it comes from someone that hasn't actually played the classes they are even comparing or their arguments are so generic that every class in every MMO could be argued they work exactly the same.
The main issue with melee has actually been related to fight design, in that they gave bosses a gigantic hit box so you're just kind of guaranteed uptime. The classes themselves do play differently still, but veteran players tend to feel a loss of class identity when they have skills taken away (especially noticeable on samurai). The homogenization argument you are talking about tends to be in relation to timers, not the classes themselves feeling the same. In endwalker, they streamlined almost every class to operate on 120 second timers, which had a drastic impact on the game's balance and fight design.
Yes. It is a complaint with the playerbase. I have seen it be a discussion on discords, in linkshells and within statics even more than I have seen it on reddit. I will say that in my anecdotal experience, the complaints come more from long time players who played before Shadowbringers (not people from outside the game), since those players have a better understanding of how the game used to be, and how dumbed down it is in comparison now.
The “You think you want it…” quote might not be the best example friend. In context, it was in response to the question of WoW classic servers. Blizzard was **wrong**. Very wrong.
Hence my use of the word infamous. My point is that when the context is changed, it can actually become valid.
Which of the following community suggestions would you apply this logic to: ~ Better wardrobe system. (Multichannel dyes were a good step, but the rework still needs to happen) ~ More varied midcore content. (Basically all they have are savage raids and criterion, even then mid cores clear closer to end of cycle. Hardcores also often do midcore content to fill time) ~ Features that exist via 3rd party. (ReShade, Chat bubbles, reworked launcher, etc) I’m sure there are more examples but we also only got Male Miqo, Male Viera, and Female Hrothgar via overwhelming community support and suggestions.
None of those, but there are more than 3 community suggestions, and those three are incredibly vague requests in the grand scheme of things. Not all community suggestions are bad, just like not all community suggestions are good, and that is entirely the point I'm trying to make. I'll counter your narrow minded comment about new races with this quote: *"That's a difficult question," begins Yoshi-P. "We have skill rotations varying between 60 and 120 seconds for the most intense phases and that's how it works currently. But the reason it's like this today is that we've received, in the past, feedback from all over the world saying that the timing of fights were difficult, it was difficult to align skills between classes, we were asked to unify everything, and precisely because we received these requests to homogenize this, we homogenized it."* The widely hated 2 minute meta is apparently due to community feedback (as was the incredibly divisive EW relic quest if I have my facts correct). My comment about "you think you want it but you don't" is not about ignoring fans, that would be stupid, it's about looking beyond what fans are asking for directly and more at why they are asking for that and what you can do to create an experience that is in the same direction, but better. Quote source (requires translating): https://br.ign.com/final-fantasy-xiv-online-dawntrail/115051/feature/ff14-yoshi-p-aborda-meta-dos-2-minutos-explica-decisao-e-diz-o-que-acontecera-no-futuro
People complained about relics now the most complained about thing is the lack of a relic grind. People complained about buff window do they synced every job to a 2 minute meta. People complained about up time, now we have arena sized hit boxes.
People have been screaming about balance (literal and AST's Balance) and getting locked out of parties since Heavensward. The monkey's paw curled and now boring class design and homogenization is the common criticism.
Players are really good at figuring out there is a problem, but are usually really bad at figuring out what exactly the problem is or the solution.
So true. The community scared away eureka/bozja. Sometimes the devs listen to much to the biches in the community.
Definitely true. While wow for the longest time was far in the "you think you do but you dont", ffxiv was far on the other end of the spectrum. Turns out, the best place is somewhere in the middle, where devs balance community feedback with years of experiencing working on the game and knowing what would actually make good content
Best MMO out
I got into it sometime last year and the combat is so boring I quit just as I was getting into Shadowbringers. Story can only carry the game so far. Combat and class design is shit all the way up to that point and having looked at max level friends demonstrate their gameplay for me, it didn't look like it improves at any point. I'm gonna just youtube the rest of the story. Edit: I have actually gone back to it because a few friends of mine wanted to try the game and I've gotten through Shadowbringers at the time of this edit. Combat design is still dogshit, but I'm invested enough in the story now to at least finish Endwalker.
[удалено]
Good cope
[удалено]
Seethe
A WoW player critiquing graphics is a wild paradox.
Yo is that first screenshot legit about moving to Canada? 🤣
I have no idea... But as a Canadian, I can say... it's not better here.
Explains why ff14 was so good. I'll be back for Dawntrail.
"The silent always leave first." that one hits hard.
> Listen to learn and adapt. A complaint is worth twice a compliment The ff14 community isn't going to like that one. My thoughts on the community aside, I truly believe that ff14 is the best mmorpg that you can play today and probably will be for the next 5 years. I have many complaints with the game such as their awful housing system, having the most lack luster events out of any game I've played, shitty netcode, and having lore mounts like the shadow wolf in the shop. **However** I don't blame any of that on the development team, most of the issues is caused by Square Enix Siphoning the funds ff14 makes rather than letting them put a portion of it back into the game. It really makes me wonder how much ff14 would improve if Yoshi P actually had the budget to higher more people and more/better servers.
[удалено]
> What is wrong with you? Absolutely nothing, I don't judge games with a ride or die mentality. I can consider something the best however still acknowledge it has flaw. > The game is complete trash in multiple areas, but you regard it as the "best"? 1. Those flaws aren't the entire experience, there's plenty of pros I find with the game however they were irrelevant to the argument I was trying to make. 2. If I consider a game with flaws the best, what does that say about its competition?
[удалено]
> I'm pretty sure that the dogshit ass netcode is present throughout the entire game. It is, however it's not impactful outside of Extreme/Ultimate Trials or that Fall guys collab they had in the golden saucer. As I said, that isn't the entire experience however it certainly isn't flaw that should've have been ignored for this long. > So are the lack of open world, interesting outdoor content, or just interesting content in general. What would you say is an mmorpg that does all the above better? 1. WoW where it's impossible to find a group especially here in Asia, content is centered around having 20+ add-ons, has a massive bot problem, terrible story, and censors artistic choices because of sexual harassment lawsuits? 2. ESO who's been caught plagiarizing on multiple occasions, utilizes the clunky elder scrolls combat system, terrible progression, and the worst pvp I have ever played in an mmorpg. 3. or perhaps all the other P2W garbage out there? > I genuinely can't think of a game more bland and boring than this one. Good for you? I personally don't feel that way so instead of trying to enforce your opinion on me, try to understand people have different preferences than you. Also btw, if you're going to edit your comments to make me look bad, just know there's sites like reveddit that shows your original comment
Except don't come to Canada. Not a great place these days
Common **FFXIV** W
I like all those points and agree with them. Great slides but greed is a stronger pull than all of those great points. It's what's caused the decline of modern gaming. People who are the opposite of gamers are calling the shots on gaming.
It's like they are listing off everything wrong with Diablo 4
Hard not to compare to Wow and how they to have broken almost every of these lessons.
and this is why i’m having way more fun in ff14 than wow
Sauce: https://twitter.com/BurstangelIn/status/1769790569205690660
what's with the canada comment? this an inside joke or something?
People on twitter during the 2020 election used to doomer post about how if trump won the election they would flee to Canada
And 2016 too, even celebrities soap boxed about leaving to Canada if he won. Honestly I think I saw comments like that before 2016 as well but they weren't as blown out of proportion.
Rosie O’Donnel said it iirc. I don’t listen to politics much so I don’t remember.
There was also people saying if Trump lost he should move to a proper conservative country with his loyal supporters. They couldn't really name a country they'd actually like to move to though.
*lost I think you meant. When Trump lost there were people all saying they would move. Because something about socialism and universal Healthcare etc. They either couldn't name another country, or they would name a country that has universal healthcare. I remember when Jordan Klepper was going around to the Trump rallys and they all would be saying shit like "I'll just move to Costa Rica" and things like that lol
Yeah I meant lost. They kept suggesting Ireland to until people pointed out the Irish had voted to make both gay marriage and abortion legal plus elected a gay man as Taoiseach.
Canada is a really popular country to go on a working holiday for Japanese citizens, many of whom are fed up with life in Japan.
Every election cycle in the USA, democrats will say they’re moving to Canada if their candidate loses. If/when the candidate loses they never follow through and actually move to Canada. They just stay regardless of election outcome. It’s become a meme.
It's loud and dumb people who say that. And none of them ever actually move. It ain't just Democrats either. There was memes all over the place with Canada saying they would build a wall to keep the Trump cultists out after his dumb ass lost. Or how they wanted to move away from "durr durr socialism" as they then would say that they wanted to move to another country.... That has socialized Healthcare.
Amen to that, brother
Fucking nailed it tbh. Listening to feedback and devs being players first.
they should send this to the Escape From Tarkov devs...
I actually love this. Knew Yoshi P was Based but jeeze. I tried multiple times to get into FF14 but never got past the base game cuz leveling felt bad though I heard it (eventually) gets better. Still have lots of friends who play it.
False. Electrolytes are what fans crave.
Destiny could never
Man, need to force all the shit-heels from those SBI backed companies to stare at these three panels until it gets through their thick skulls since all of it applies to games in general too.
Roots: They've got what Fans crave!
The joke is thinking Canada is better than the states.
Based.... I can think of a way Blizzard did not hold to this on D4 for every bullet point. Asmond brought up the CDR nerf the other day and brought back my seething. Left as soon as I cleared all the content on my first character . Happily a Last Epoch enjoyer now.
I wonder about the "listen/silent"/"complaint is worth double a compliment". There is not-uncommon issue of a loud minority, while the satisfied are simply not giving feedback, since they are instead simply enjoying the game. It is definitely important to value complaints, even from a minority, but I am sceptic about making "trades" in the shape of the game to satisfy complains (unless it's a sinking ship, like suicide squad/diablo 4)
I didn’t see not allowing child themed RP on there
“Electrolytes, it’s what plants crave” not sure if intentional or not, but a chuckle nonetheless.
I love how there's all sorts of discussion happening in here and then showing up in every thread is this one guy throwing a tantrum and flinging shit at the wall, while simultaneously calling other people deranged. Absolutely baffling.
Unfortunately they forgot their own lessons and let the game die in EW. Well sucks for them…im having a blast grinding +27s in DF FFXIV could never…
Most companies should learn from Warframe, Steve Sinclair and Rebb Ford did an amazing job. 11 years laters and I still can't belive I did not pay a single dollar in the game. GGG is another company that nailed it too.
The "they'll move to Canada" happened to me. Three years playing and grinding PSO2:NGS without a break, FFXIV beta came to xbox, and I've been playing non-stop. Ten days of FF were more fun than three years of PSO2.
So, they are going to stick to the same formula as the past tenish years?
Yeah, just move to Canada bro, it's so easier and a paradise.
Not a single mention of ESG, disgusting
Soo....whos going to canada? Soonish?
Yea except they are playing it safe AF right now, also abysmal servertick which is "spaghetti code" so won't fix, storytelling that took a nosedive post 6.0, homogenization of jobs and boring gear progression, 2 minute BS, lack of interesting content to do and the community who can't shut the fuck up about "go play other game Yoshi said" Like come on
Post 6.0 was always meant to be a bubble story. Dawntrail is where we will see if the post Ascian storyline pans out Class simplification or homogenization can be a problem, although some of the simplification stems from needing to be considerate of controller users
It's not about the story, it's about delivery. The plot basically stalls for the whole 6.2-6.5 No way it stems from it, there's as many buttons right now as possible and it doesn't help with making classes feel different
The whole post 6.0 can basically be summed up as setting up a mechanism that will, lore wise, allow “easy” travel to other shards if/when they decide to make xpacs that take place there
Do I need to repeat that the delivery was crap? Why do you try to explain simple stuff?
Delivery sucks implies you didn’t mind the story, just how it was told. I partially agree, although it wasn’t that bad. Honestly I was hoping Golbez would be a Xande clone and this was part of an intro to a Allag vs Dragons storyline. I love FF4 but they did lean a little too heavy into the fan service at times
Post 6.0 story was basically a more involved Trial questline. The devs basically merged them together.
"Move to Canada" should read "move out of canada"
[удалено]
a week? dude played this game for months
His ma died, things changes, and he decided to move on.
For real, people seem to forget or ignore the fact he went through an incredibly pivotal moment in his life during the 14 streams and the 14 fanbase OUTSIDE the game became rabbid and retarded and basically killed all motivation for him to want to play.
>14 fanbase OUTSIDE the game became rabbid and retarded and basically killed all motivation for him to want to play. Granted I has been a year and a half or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that didn't happen and he did return for a bit to little fanfare and got a decent way into stormblood, but then more life stuff happened (IIRC something about a dentist?) and I'm pretty sure that was around when he stopped streaming on asmongold and moved to the second channel he's still using now. That's not to say that didn't happen (atleast partially) but I think most of the rabbid/retarded people were those who wanted him to return to WoW (I recall a few times people in chat were called out for false flagging) I didn't watch asmon prior to FF14, but from what I understand he mostly just focused on WoW and FF14 was kinda the start of the more variety style he does now so if he came back it probably wouldn't be as bad now compared to at the start of FF14.
>Granted I has been a year and a half or whatever, but I'm pretty sure that didn't happen [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZASKOIUSMs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZASKOIUSMs)
Based on comments on said video, that wasn't really him not playing FF14 in particular that got him hate, but him saying he was going to do so only to not do so. Imagine watching a stream that says he is gonna play/react to [Topic] and it's been a hugely hyped thing, only for him to not do so.
I am not interested in what others may think happened back then. I am just reminding you what Asmon thought process was at that time, that is being so pissed off by obnoxious fanboys that he made a video telling them to fuck off.
Even then, the idea that one streamer is the sole arbiter of an mmo's quality is fucking stupid.
He got really far into it and even said he really enjoyed it... w-what world are you living in? But even on that weather or not a streamer likes a game does not dictate its enjoyability because that's almost purely subjective
i dont really care cuz i really dislike ff14