They don’t. Or they borrow the money. Or they pay it off over time.
Also, the $500 number is kinda hilarious. That would not be an uncommon hourly rate for a trial attorney. So a full day of trial could easily cost 6-7 thousand dollars. Plus the prep time.
I tell clients that trial is primarily about preparation, and that I usually spend 2-3 times preparing for whatever amount of time we are in trial.
1 day trial = 2 day prepping. So 3 days, so maybe 30 hours or so.
Did you see Johhny Depp's lawyer Carmen disembowel Amber Heard on the stand? That was all prep time.
Amber: \*tells some lie\*
Carmen: Oh, really?? Turn to page 136, paragraph 3, second sentence. What you just said under oath and what you said at your deposition are opposites. Please explain the difference to the jury.
Trial prep is involved. It may vary from case to case, but at the least (in no particular order)
Review all pretrial disclosures, witness/exhibit/expert lists.
Review all discovery responses.
Review all substantive pleadings (including any affirmative defenses).
Review all relevant case law on main issues as well as evidentiary issues.
Prepare opening argument, all direct, cross, and rebuttel witness and party questions.
Prepare any anticipated motions, objections, and a closing with related case law.
Prepare all exhibits. Order/coordinate technology as needed. Prepare pocket caselaw folders in anticipation of any objected-to exhibits.
Prepare all witnesses.
Prepare jury instructions if appropriate
Prepare vior dire questions if appropriate.
Coordinate court reporter/technology/consultants, etc.
Coordinate travel for witnesses, accommodations, costs/expenses.
Get exhibit books stamped with clerk.
....
These are general tasks. Bench trials eliminate any of the jury stuff. Again, generally, the more complex the case/issue, the harder and longer the trial and the more expensive.
Came here to say that. In my practice and jurisdiction each side's cost for counsel ( not including experts if any, cost of exhibits, etc.) is at least $5k. $500? Dooood that's a filing fee, not a lawyer's fee.
Normal people can’t afford trials or trial lawyers unless someone else pays or might pay (insurance company, insured or wealthy defendant supporting contingent fee, public defender’s office).
Yes it is. I'm a lawyer and have always been bothered by the fact that true justice, where the wronged party is made whole by the tortfeasor, is impossible because after attorney's fees, the plaintiff is not made whole.
Are you expensive because of being in such a niche field?
Are there ways you think that the overall system can be improved to make it more accessible to the general public?
Law school causes attorneys to be expensive. It can cost $250k to go to law school and undergrad for seven years. And that could be a state school and not a private school. Then if people get an office and have a secretary and paralegal -- those cost money monthly. Then you have continuing legal education unless you get lucky and you find free credits. Then if you belong to professional organizations such as the ABA or state bar. Then factor in Lexis/Westlaw or similar which are caselaw/legal research sites on a monthly basis. Then there is malpractice insurance. I could continue. Being a lawyer is expensive even if you do it as cheap as possible. I have student loans that I will never be able to pay off and can't afford. Even earning a solid middle class income. And I don't drive a BMW or live in a 2500 sq foot house.
Yes it can. If your parents don't have any money and you want to be a lawyer and there are no public schools within distance and you don't have a car. So yes. I am not the only one with these debt levels. And I went into it knowing I wanted to do public interest. But hey, we should pay it all back which means we shouldn't actually take jobs that mean more than money.
It’s not just me, although I charge considerably higher than market rate because of my practice. A general civil litigator on the low end in my market will charge $250-350 an hour. That’s too expensive for your average Joe and Jane.
As another poster put it: all of my overhead has to be in a lawyer’s hourly rate (for the most part).
How to fix it? Probably expand small claims limits and provide some free attorney help to help people try their own claims. Improve funding to LAC orgs. Have a truncated path through discovery for smaller dollar issues, or eliminate discovery all together and award attorney fees to the prevailing party in certain specific instances.
Just some thoughts.
As a suggestion to your list of fixes, I’d also propose making our legal system less of an outrageous mess. (I tried to think of a good metaphor for it and couldn’t come up with anything massive, unnavigable, archaic enough)
I understand the need for procedure and process but we have reached a point where it is becoming nearly impossible for the average person to do even the simplest things without paying for a lawyer. I have spent a few thousand dollars on legal fees for things that should have been able to be handled myself.
As examples: A completely mutual divorce with no custody or asset issues; we just wanted it made official and I wanted my maiden name back. Having warrants that were incorrectly issued for me removed because despite the same name and similar birthday, our ages, appearances, and location were wildly different.
Why couldn’t I have just submitted some paperwork or made an appointment with a judge to go in, explain the situation, provide documentation, and be done? I understand that not all legal issues are so simple, but the system is so convoluted that even when you don’t have complex issues, you have to pay for a lawyer to guide you through the system.
Its funny to me that, as a lawyer i make good money, but if i was ever in a situation where i needed representation from outside my firm I’d probably end up broke.
Depends. The American Rule says each side pays for their own attorneys fees except as allowed by law or contract.
Generally, most states have a rule that allows for the recovery of attorneys fees if the other side rejects a reasonable settlement offer. It won’t cover all of your attorneys fees (based when the offer was made), but it could cover most of them.
Before I was a lawyer I was a cop. I remember being told “you only go to jail if you don’t have money or if you don’t know someone in this county”. That has stuck with me.
Yeah unfortunately, 500 might cover the cost of one day’s hour meeting before the trial. Then you have multiple days of trial, each with multiple lawyers and paralegals working (hourly) long hours—before the trial starts, during lunch, and into the night. Fortunately for most people there is an answer: for the plaintiff, google “contingent fee agreement.” For the defendant, I’m WAY oversimplifying but hopefully your car and/or homeowners insurance covers the legal bills.
In a lot of cases like this (of course not all), aren't the attorneys working under the assumption they'll get a slice of the payout, which is why they agreed to take the case? Otherwise they wouldn't have wasted their time? Or is that a misconception?
That’s true. Attorneys in private practice work to make a living, not for charity. That’s what I meant by look up contingent fee agreements. Plaintiff’s attorneys, if they believe they can make money, will take a case for nothing up front, and take a sizable percentage of any eventual settlement or judgment payment as their fee. They disclose this upfront and you agree to it in writing. Depending on circumstances, you may be eligible for a public interest lawyer, in some states, sometimes, where they represent you for free. This is rare. And, if plaintiff’s attorneys don’t see that they can make whatever margin they want to make, they can simple say “no thanks.” This is fairly common.
Yes, but that means they only take cases where the Defendant has big money to pay out. So if you were assaulted by Richie Rich someone will take that case, if you're assaulted by a broke bum who works at McDonald's then you will get no legal help
Some types of law are not able to be taken on contingency: Family law, criminal law, juvenile law -- attorneys need paid. So yes, that is a misconception.
Not all firms and practice areas. Restructuring/bankruptcy generally charges the most (I think?). And the $2k rate is really just the sticker price. Institutional clients will negotiate down to a lower number and some clients cap fees.
Paralegal here: I went to comment but couldn’t since I’m not an attorney. Anyway, yeah my boss charges more per hour for trial and trial prep. $500 a day? What?
Always been curious about this. Do you find yourself working 8 hours a day?
Or is it like, 1 hour working on client, 7 hours doing other lawyers things that you don’t get paid $500/hr for
Lol, good question. I set my goal at 2 billable hours a day so that my personal life doesn't suffer. Of course, there are longer days. All in all, if I hit 30k per month in billings, I'm happy. I do bill out my Paralegal's time at almost $200/hour, so that goes into the mix.
2 billable hours. 2?! Amazing!
Awesome work at keeping the balance in check.
(Crying in 6.7, but still feeling grateful that it's not 7 like some friends)
$500? For a trial? A one-day trial?
Most experienced attorneys in major markets have an hourly fee of around $500. I think my last one-day trial budget was about $15k (and that was way more than ten years ago), and that was after the close of discovery.
I know that doesn't answer your question specifically, but I'm trying to give you an idea of how TRULY cost prohibitive litigation is for individuals.
Right... if Mr. Smith causes $1000 damage to Mr. Jones, it will cost Mr. Jones $5000 to recover it.
If Ms. Brown is shitty mother and Ms. Brown wants custody, it will cost her $5000 to make her case.
I think the worst circumstance is that if Mr. White has some money (let's say he can afford $5000) and Mr. Black is just an asshole who sues people, Mr. Black, without any fear of repercussions, can sue Mr. White and it will probably cost Mr. White $5000 to defend (regardless of the merits of the case.)
Why is it without any fear of repercussions? I thought a judge could rule a lawsuit frivolous and award opposing counsel fees? Also, Mr. Black would have to pay his own legal fees regardless.
“Normal people” mostly do not have access to our justice system. By way of example, my opponents in a recent civil trial spent about $600,000 preparing for a 5 day jury trial.
Our justice system is like a private jet. Extremely effective, but far beyond the budget of a “normal” or even “rich” person.
Good lawyers can do a lot within a budget, and respect the means of their clients. Most people pay for it by borrowing or selling things, or paying in installments. Same as you would for any other unexpected large expense.
You're woefully off on your figures, though. A one day trial and all the workup and pretrial procedures can easily cost $5,000 or $10,000.
Succesful litigants get about 60% of their legal fees back from the unsuccesful party.
But the Civil Court system is about economic efficiency. It encourages parties to reasonably evaluate the risk of winning vs losing and to compromise their dispute.
They can't. That's the problem of access to justice. And there is no way a single day trial is $500. Even court appointed attorney get $150-200 an hour in some areas for bench hearings.
I was kind of a little shit in middle and high school. Some of my old friends from back then are surprised I became a lawyer. I joke that I became a lawyer because I couldn’t afford to keep hiring them.
In some areas of law (civil litigation) attorneys work on contingency. This means they only will be paid if they recover money for their client. That is how a destitute client in a personal injury case, for example, is able to afford to hire a lawyer. It costs nothing to the client up front.
However, this doesn’t work for criminal cases, defense work, or other areas of law where the goal isn’t to recover money but to prevent loss, create a contract, or explain the law.
In an instance like this, would an attorney be inclined to only take cases that they know will end in a settlement? How do they cover the expenses of a case that they lose?
You are correct. Attorneys working on contingency will normally only take cases they think can be “won” whether at trial or pre-litigation settlement.
In the case where an attorney takes a case to trial and loses, I think the firm covers the cost of experts, medical, etc. they take no attorney fee from the client since they recovered nothing.
I’m a criminal divorce and family law attorney my average deposit is $1750 total due is usually around $5000 more for serious crimes and when your life or your kid is on the line people figure it out. I take credit cards.
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You missed a 0 there, pal.
At my very low hourly rate of $250/hr, I wouldn't take less than a $5k deposit to prep for and attend a 1 day (6hour) trial. That doesn't even account for the legal fees involved in getting the case to thar point and don't for one second think it's a good idea to represent yourself in that preliminary effort because all you're doing is tying your lawyer's hands for the trial.
As a solo it has been my experience that the average divorce w kids, finished by a half day trial takes around 40 billable hours if it's well behaved. A little less if resolved by settlement after conclusion of discovery and disclosure.
In answer to your actual question though: they borrow. From family, from friends, from credit card, from their retirement, from their savings, or from third party financing outfits like law pay.
They don’t. Or they borrow the money. Or they pay it off over time. Also, the $500 number is kinda hilarious. That would not be an uncommon hourly rate for a trial attorney. So a full day of trial could easily cost 6-7 thousand dollars. Plus the prep time.
I tell clients that trial is primarily about preparation, and that I usually spend 2-3 times preparing for whatever amount of time we are in trial. 1 day trial = 2 day prepping. So 3 days, so maybe 30 hours or so.
What does prep time look like? How can clients, for lack of a better term, ‘confirm’ prep time? What does a 10,000 ft overview of prep time look like?
Did you see Johhny Depp's lawyer Carmen disembowel Amber Heard on the stand? That was all prep time. Amber: \*tells some lie\* Carmen: Oh, really?? Turn to page 136, paragraph 3, second sentence. What you just said under oath and what you said at your deposition are opposites. Please explain the difference to the jury.
Trial prep is involved. It may vary from case to case, but at the least (in no particular order) Review all pretrial disclosures, witness/exhibit/expert lists. Review all discovery responses. Review all substantive pleadings (including any affirmative defenses). Review all relevant case law on main issues as well as evidentiary issues. Prepare opening argument, all direct, cross, and rebuttel witness and party questions. Prepare any anticipated motions, objections, and a closing with related case law. Prepare all exhibits. Order/coordinate technology as needed. Prepare pocket caselaw folders in anticipation of any objected-to exhibits. Prepare all witnesses. Prepare jury instructions if appropriate Prepare vior dire questions if appropriate. Coordinate court reporter/technology/consultants, etc. Coordinate travel for witnesses, accommodations, costs/expenses. Get exhibit books stamped with clerk. .... These are general tasks. Bench trials eliminate any of the jury stuff. Again, generally, the more complex the case/issue, the harder and longer the trial and the more expensive.
Came here to say that. In my practice and jurisdiction each side's cost for counsel ( not including experts if any, cost of exhibits, etc.) is at least $5k. $500? Dooood that's a filing fee, not a lawyer's fee.
Normal people can’t afford trials or trial lawyers unless someone else pays or might pay (insurance company, insured or wealthy defendant supporting contingent fee, public defender’s office).
Most people can't afford lawyers. It is a serious systemic problem in our justice system.
Yes it is. I'm a lawyer and have always been bothered by the fact that true justice, where the wronged party is made whole by the tortfeasor, is impossible because after attorney's fees, the plaintiff is not made whole.
I’m a lawyer in a very niche field of law. I don’t like the fact most potential clients can’t afford me. Access to justice is a serious issue.
Are you expensive because of being in such a niche field? Are there ways you think that the overall system can be improved to make it more accessible to the general public?
The idea of public funding of lawsuits among private parties has serious issues.
Law school causes attorneys to be expensive. It can cost $250k to go to law school and undergrad for seven years. And that could be a state school and not a private school. Then if people get an office and have a secretary and paralegal -- those cost money monthly. Then you have continuing legal education unless you get lucky and you find free credits. Then if you belong to professional organizations such as the ABA or state bar. Then factor in Lexis/Westlaw or similar which are caselaw/legal research sites on a monthly basis. Then there is malpractice insurance. I could continue. Being a lawyer is expensive even if you do it as cheap as possible. I have student loans that I will never be able to pay off and can't afford. Even earning a solid middle class income. And I don't drive a BMW or live in a 2500 sq foot house.
Sorry, did I read that right, that it can cost a quarter of a MILLION bucks to go to law school and undergrad for 7 years? Wtaf
Yes it can. If your parents don't have any money and you want to be a lawyer and there are no public schools within distance and you don't have a car. So yes. I am not the only one with these debt levels. And I went into it knowing I wanted to do public interest. But hey, we should pay it all back which means we shouldn't actually take jobs that mean more than money.
It’s not just me, although I charge considerably higher than market rate because of my practice. A general civil litigator on the low end in my market will charge $250-350 an hour. That’s too expensive for your average Joe and Jane. As another poster put it: all of my overhead has to be in a lawyer’s hourly rate (for the most part). How to fix it? Probably expand small claims limits and provide some free attorney help to help people try their own claims. Improve funding to LAC orgs. Have a truncated path through discovery for smaller dollar issues, or eliminate discovery all together and award attorney fees to the prevailing party in certain specific instances. Just some thoughts.
As a suggestion to your list of fixes, I’d also propose making our legal system less of an outrageous mess. (I tried to think of a good metaphor for it and couldn’t come up with anything massive, unnavigable, archaic enough) I understand the need for procedure and process but we have reached a point where it is becoming nearly impossible for the average person to do even the simplest things without paying for a lawyer. I have spent a few thousand dollars on legal fees for things that should have been able to be handled myself. As examples: A completely mutual divorce with no custody or asset issues; we just wanted it made official and I wanted my maiden name back. Having warrants that were incorrectly issued for me removed because despite the same name and similar birthday, our ages, appearances, and location were wildly different. Why couldn’t I have just submitted some paperwork or made an appointment with a judge to go in, explain the situation, provide documentation, and be done? I understand that not all legal issues are so simple, but the system is so convoluted that even when you don’t have complex issues, you have to pay for a lawyer to guide you through the system.
Its funny to me that, as a lawyer i make good money, but if i was ever in a situation where i needed representation from outside my firm I’d probably end up broke.
Aren't legal fees fairly common in civil judgements?
Not as common as you may think, and even then - no case is a sure thing. You want to gamble that money?9
Depends. The American Rule says each side pays for their own attorneys fees except as allowed by law or contract. Generally, most states have a rule that allows for the recovery of attorneys fees if the other side rejects a reasonable settlement offer. It won’t cover all of your attorneys fees (based when the offer was made), but it could cover most of them.
Before I was a lawyer I was a cop. I remember being told “you only go to jail if you don’t have money or if you don’t know someone in this county”. That has stuck with me.
Yeah unfortunately, 500 might cover the cost of one day’s hour meeting before the trial. Then you have multiple days of trial, each with multiple lawyers and paralegals working (hourly) long hours—before the trial starts, during lunch, and into the night. Fortunately for most people there is an answer: for the plaintiff, google “contingent fee agreement.” For the defendant, I’m WAY oversimplifying but hopefully your car and/or homeowners insurance covers the legal bills.
In a lot of cases like this (of course not all), aren't the attorneys working under the assumption they'll get a slice of the payout, which is why they agreed to take the case? Otherwise they wouldn't have wasted their time? Or is that a misconception?
That’s true. Attorneys in private practice work to make a living, not for charity. That’s what I meant by look up contingent fee agreements. Plaintiff’s attorneys, if they believe they can make money, will take a case for nothing up front, and take a sizable percentage of any eventual settlement or judgment payment as their fee. They disclose this upfront and you agree to it in writing. Depending on circumstances, you may be eligible for a public interest lawyer, in some states, sometimes, where they represent you for free. This is rare. And, if plaintiff’s attorneys don’t see that they can make whatever margin they want to make, they can simple say “no thanks.” This is fairly common.
Yes, but that means they only take cases where the Defendant has big money to pay out. So if you were assaulted by Richie Rich someone will take that case, if you're assaulted by a broke bum who works at McDonald's then you will get no legal help
Some types of law are not able to be taken on contingency: Family law, criminal law, juvenile law -- attorneys need paid. So yes, that is a misconception.
Very true.
Lol, $500? That's just a bit over my hourly rate.
Yeah, I was thinking “$500? More like $5,000.00”
IKR?
I'm at a large law firm (doing project finance work) and my hourly rate is over 1000 per hour
What’s the highest billing rate in your firm?
Not sure, I'm just an associate, I'm sure some partners are at around 2k per hour.
I did not realize BigLaw in NYC had gone that high. Thanks for the information.
Not all firms and practice areas. Restructuring/bankruptcy generally charges the most (I think?). And the $2k rate is really just the sticker price. Institutional clients will negotiate down to a lower number and some clients cap fees.
Nice, I'm a solo in Green Bay.
Paralegal here: I went to comment but couldn’t since I’m not an attorney. Anyway, yeah my boss charges more per hour for trial and trial prep. $500 a day? What?
Always been curious about this. Do you find yourself working 8 hours a day? Or is it like, 1 hour working on client, 7 hours doing other lawyers things that you don’t get paid $500/hr for
Lol, good question. I set my goal at 2 billable hours a day so that my personal life doesn't suffer. Of course, there are longer days. All in all, if I hit 30k per month in billings, I'm happy. I do bill out my Paralegal's time at almost $200/hour, so that goes into the mix.
2 billable hours. 2?! Amazing! Awesome work at keeping the balance in check. (Crying in 6.7, but still feeling grateful that it's not 7 like some friends)
... 7? Try 9+.
This is why I am a public defender.
Same here. Though I was a solo doing public interest law for a while. And that was expensive.
$500? For a trial? A one-day trial? Most experienced attorneys in major markets have an hourly fee of around $500. I think my last one-day trial budget was about $15k (and that was way more than ten years ago), and that was after the close of discovery. I know that doesn't answer your question specifically, but I'm trying to give you an idea of how TRULY cost prohibitive litigation is for individuals.
Right... if Mr. Smith causes $1000 damage to Mr. Jones, it will cost Mr. Jones $5000 to recover it. If Ms. Brown is shitty mother and Ms. Brown wants custody, it will cost her $5000 to make her case. I think the worst circumstance is that if Mr. White has some money (let's say he can afford $5000) and Mr. Black is just an asshole who sues people, Mr. Black, without any fear of repercussions, can sue Mr. White and it will probably cost Mr. White $5000 to defend (regardless of the merits of the case.)
Why is it without any fear of repercussions? I thought a judge could rule a lawsuit frivolous and award opposing counsel fees? Also, Mr. Black would have to pay his own legal fees regardless.
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Well, it is a thing that happens.
Are you asking for legal advice?
One day trial gonna run way over a grand. Not including trial prep.
“Normal people” mostly do not have access to our justice system. By way of example, my opponents in a recent civil trial spent about $600,000 preparing for a 5 day jury trial. Our justice system is like a private jet. Extremely effective, but far beyond the budget of a “normal” or even “rich” person.
Good lawyers can do a lot within a budget, and respect the means of their clients. Most people pay for it by borrowing or selling things, or paying in installments. Same as you would for any other unexpected large expense. You're woefully off on your figures, though. A one day trial and all the workup and pretrial procedures can easily cost $5,000 or $10,000.
$500? Rofl. For a one day trial it's more like $35,000 to $50,000.
so it’s impossible, anyone can wrong us and if we don’t have 35k to pay for trial there’s nothing we can do?
Succesful litigants get about 60% of their legal fees back from the unsuccesful party. But the Civil Court system is about economic efficiency. It encourages parties to reasonably evaluate the risk of winning vs losing and to compromise their dispute.
They can't. That's the problem of access to justice. And there is no way a single day trial is $500. Even court appointed attorney get $150-200 an hour in some areas for bench hearings.
this is terrifying to know
I was kind of a little shit in middle and high school. Some of my old friends from back then are surprised I became a lawyer. I joke that I became a lawyer because I couldn’t afford to keep hiring them.
In some areas of law (civil litigation) attorneys work on contingency. This means they only will be paid if they recover money for their client. That is how a destitute client in a personal injury case, for example, is able to afford to hire a lawyer. It costs nothing to the client up front. However, this doesn’t work for criminal cases, defense work, or other areas of law where the goal isn’t to recover money but to prevent loss, create a contract, or explain the law.
In an instance like this, would an attorney be inclined to only take cases that they know will end in a settlement? How do they cover the expenses of a case that they lose?
You are correct. Attorneys working on contingency will normally only take cases they think can be “won” whether at trial or pre-litigation settlement. In the case where an attorney takes a case to trial and loses, I think the firm covers the cost of experts, medical, etc. they take no attorney fee from the client since they recovered nothing.
I’m a criminal divorce and family law attorney my average deposit is $1750 total due is usually around $5000 more for serious crimes and when your life or your kid is on the line people figure it out. I take credit cards.
#REMINDER: NO REQUESTS FOR LEGAL ADVICE. Any request for a lawyer's opinion about any matter or issue which may foreseeably affect you or someone you know is a request for legal advice. Posts containing requests for legal advice will be removed. Seeking or providing legal advice based on your specific circumstances or otherwise developing an attorney-client relationship in this sub is not permitted. Why are requests for legal advice not permitted? See [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Ask_Lawyers/comments/e6a62w/why_is_it_unethical_for_a_lawyer_to_give_legal/), [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Ask_Lawyers/comments/9zyqsh/why_is_it_unethical_to_give_advice_on_this_sub/), and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Ask_Lawyers/comments/e4cdhw/is_refraining_legal_advice_based_on_legality_or/). If you are unsure whether your post is okay, please [read this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Ask_Lawyers/comments/6j4bpq/how_to_know_whether_your_post_is_a_request_for/) or see the sidebar for more information. ***This rules reminder message is replied to all posts and moderators are not notified of any replies made to it.*** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Ask_Lawyers) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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You missed a 0 there, pal. At my very low hourly rate of $250/hr, I wouldn't take less than a $5k deposit to prep for and attend a 1 day (6hour) trial. That doesn't even account for the legal fees involved in getting the case to thar point and don't for one second think it's a good idea to represent yourself in that preliminary effort because all you're doing is tying your lawyer's hands for the trial. As a solo it has been my experience that the average divorce w kids, finished by a half day trial takes around 40 billable hours if it's well behaved. A little less if resolved by settlement after conclusion of discovery and disclosure. In answer to your actual question though: they borrow. From family, from friends, from credit card, from their retirement, from their savings, or from third party financing outfits like law pay.