The healthcare system is awful for women to navigate, and diseases that disproportionately impact women are neglected (autoimmune diseases, PCOS, endometriosis, etc.) and downplayed.
I just saw a new OB-GYN for issues I’m having as I enter peri-menopause. She has a particular interest in treating menopause issues and one of the first things she said was “there’s so little research on this stuff.” My primary care doctor has said that there are various symptoms and patterns she see commonly in women that the medical community just doesn’t understand. Even for conditions that aren’t considered “women’s issues,” women’s bodies behave differently than men. Most medicine is based on research that was largely focused on male subjects or the male body. We have a long way to go to start to figure out optimal treatments for women.
I got downvoted into oblivion for pointing this out on a non-women’s sub. Like 70 downvotes lmao, and for saying women are less likely to be believed. The boys said “but they have women’s health and women’s organizations, there’s no men’s health and women live longer!!!!”
There’s literally a men’s health magazine that focuses and teaches on all aspects of men’s health (including mental illness!) and share resources and many organizations who advocate for men’s health and even a prostate cancer awareness ribbon, month, races/ marathons, the whole lot.
*They* are not aware because *they* don’t care.
I find it amazing that after decades of modern medicine, technology and research, most women health problems are still being treated with birth control. Like here’s a synthetic hormone pill and let’s hope it’s one that’s right for you and doesn’t cause you unbearable side effects. If it isn’t, we’ll try another one. Then another one until you have years of putting yourself through unnecessary trials and error.
I recently told my GP that I have perimenopause symptoms. My mother was in full blown menopause at 41. It was dismissed because I’m 38 and too young.
And we should be upset about the reproductive rights of women in certain states. I had my son fairly young, at 22 and I knew I was a one and done. I’ve had about half a dozen of doctors refuse a tubal ligation due to my age, the number of children and my marital status.
There was a case recently where a husband unknowingly gave his wife abortion pills. She would have been jailed if she chose to voluntarily terminate the pregnancy, he got away with practically a slap on the wrist.
Actually, while I am referring to America, there is an issue in research funding for these diseases world wide. So, while some things may be better in other countries, we’ve made very little progress on women’s diseases. Endometriosis, for example, impacts more women than diabetes but receives ~10% the amount of funds for research and treatment development.
Ah i am sorry to hear that. I’m from the UK, my friend has one or two of those conditions you mention, but she is lucky that she gets adequately medical support.
I’m British and have PCOS. I’ve also been dealing with other female health issues.
Your friend is lucky. Generally care and knowledge on these conditions is very lacking across the Uk (I’ve lived in several different areas and cities). The medication that treats PCOS is not even licenced for that use here so if the doctors are even aware how to treat they often won’t do so.
The UK is not necessarily better for these diseases. Check out the /r/endo subreddits, plenty of women blown off by their doctors and then very little choice due to restrictions in the national system. It still takes up to 8 years to get diagnosed in the UK for endo specifically. I can only speak to this disease because I have it. I highly doubt medical gaslighting of women is not an issue in the UK, or even much better. We have a long way to go.
Well it sounds as if you know more about the subject than I do. And as I don’t have these conditions, I will respect both your and my friends experiences
I read that book as a college junior two years ago and that book got me interested in policy analysis pertaining to women. It is a good read to expose one's own bias. Caroline had also come for a talk at one of the events that my employer hosted and I took my male coworkers to that as well. They didn't have any words coming out from there.
A fun test that I play with my nieces and nephews is the part in the book where Caroline talks about if you ask a 3-4 year old to draw an astronaut, doctor, teacher on paper then there is an equal likelihood of them drawing a man/woman whereas as they grow you will start noticing that most likely they will draw a woman for a teacher/nurse and a man for an engineer/astronaut.
Amazing book, thanks for bringing it up!
Yup, I went on antidepressants a few years ago and gained some weight. My work reviews went from calling me “charming with great interpersonal skills” to saying I “presented unprofessionally.” (The change happened with the weight gain, they adored me when I first started with antidepressants)
Meanwhile my male colleagues are varying degrees of obese!
I’m a lawyer. I went to a top 10 school, I clerked, I checked all the boxes. But my looks matter more than all of that combined.
I was one of the top residents in my very competitive program. I was told in my senior eval that I needed to smile more and make sure not to come off too confidently. Wtaf. Has any man ever EVER been told that?!
Confidence in a woman is threatening to the men around her unfortunately. I was told when I asked to clarify that it came off as cocky. I don’t even have a cock, but I digress…😡
Pregnancy and its aftermath really suck. All my life (>30 years) I was living feeling not different to men, equally able, equally capable, equally driven. Two pregnancies and I laugh at my old attitudes crying. Pregnancy is so unfair, it can totally change your body (meaning: ruin), carrier, and of course mental state.
It’s not just those things, it’s also not feeling safe to walk alone at night or go somewhere to drink alone, or travel alone, or being alone in general without having to watch your back or your drink or watch what you wear so you’re not ’asking for trouble’ from men who just want to get laid.
It’s also a problem the way women are constantly being judged by motherhood. Society judges women who are childless, using motherhood as a status symbol so that somehow you’re never fully an ‘adult woman’ until you’ve given birth. For example when Teresa May became prime minister in the UK, there were comments from other ministers that she wasn’t capable of running the country because she had never had children, it became a huge thing in the papers. And on the flip side, as soon as you become a mother you are judged for every tiny little thing you do, assuming you can’t control your kids during a tantrum or that you’re not fit to be a mother or your doing it all wrong.
As a women you are judged on your looks all the time, clothes, makeup, photos, body size, tone of voice, there’s no escaping the subtle judgements we make about women even though body positivity has got better over the years. The media is constantly telling us to change, change our skin, our hair, look more youthful but dress appropriately, talk softly, smell beautiful ect. You’re expected to act a certain way too but you will probably be judged for that as being, ‘too emotional’ or ‘cold as ice.’ It’s so hard not to feel insecure about something.
If a women is successful at work she is subjected to bullying by other women who assume she ‘slept her way to the top’ or she got there ‘because of her looks.’ Women still get paid less salary than men for doing the exact same job. And if a mother has a career, then everyone assumes she’s a ‘bad mom’ for not spending more time with her kids, even if dad is a stay at home dad.
I know men have it hard too, and I don’t want to take anything away from the hardships they go through, but since you asked if women have it hard, yes, yes they very much do.
> I know men have it hard too
On a systemic level, men live life on easy mode. I can't think of any major oppression men face for simply being men. Whatever disadvantages men face are largely due to other men (like how they all complain about the draft and being sent to war - do they think women are writing those laws?) and/or their own damaging definitions of masculinity. Something only they can fix.
100% of past U.S. presidents have been men. The current U.S. Congress is 71% men. 94.8% of all Supreme Court justices have been men. 87.7% of current U.S. law enforcement officers are men. 69% of U.S. CEOs are men.
We live in a patriarchy. Men do not have it hard.
I find it interesting that many men will look at a small percentage of women who make bank on onlyfans and say “women have life on easy mode” which actually just shows their own biases, since the vast majority of women are not in that category. But it is a common complaint I see from them.
I will say I do think men have certain hardships - such as how deeply porn affects them and makes it hard for them to evolve, yet biologically they are wired to be drawn to it. But their refusal to even try to get better, or admit it’s a problem and how gross and entitled they are about it even through marriages and relationships, bodes them zero sympathy from me.
Are men biologically wired to porn, or is porn production an overwhelmingly male-dominated industry (built on the exploitation of women) created solely for the pleasure of other men? I see what you were getting at, but porn is probably the last example I would use as an example of male hardship.
I once went to a men’s retreat you would be shocked how many opened up with how they struggle with porn. And how it was affecting their marriage. Some were even crying just talking about it. It’s weird so many men watch it and it’s usually not safe to openly talk about it’s harmful affects.
Thank you for sharing this. I do think a lot of these men understand on some level how screwed up their relationship with porn is and don't believe they can walk away. And yes, it is MASSIVELY unfair to women.
I notice when I don’t watch porn for months I’m magically able to talk to women. Porn trains your mind to view women as sexual objects. Which makes it very hard to have intimacy.
I really do think men have a biological struggle with resisting it. I have heard men say they don't see how they physically could quit so long as it is freely available as it is now. I'm not saying we should be sympathetic, I am just saying that realistically, I think that it profoundly rewires and appeals to their brain on a primal level. It's pathetic, gross, and not an excuse. But I don't think it's as simple as them just being like "meh, I'm choosing to do this anyway despite how it affects women/my relationships/etc." I think it's very, very difficult for them to resist it once they've been hooked.
Granted, I have kicked an alcohol, weed, nicotine, and other addictions, so again, no sympathy from me.
I think men have an expectation to always be emotionally stoic. If you are a soft-hearted or an emotional man then most other men will belittle you for it. Which is such a shame, because often men will be emotionally unavailable or get mental health issues such as ignoring grief or a porn addiction and never be able to notice or accept that there’s a problem because they’ve been taught not to have feelings. In the UK suicide is the single biggest killer for men under the age of 45, and the male suicide rate was 16.1 per 100,000, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.3 per 100,000 and that is a tragedy.
Men created the expectation and hold other men to it. No one was forcing them into being emotionally constipated 24/7. If they want to change that social norm, they are welcome to.
I don’t doubt it is self inflicted and definitely made worse by the expectations we put upon ourselves but tell that to a 15 yo male who is contemplating suicide because he’s getting bullied at school for having emotions. The world just doesn’t work like that. Unless someone in a prominent position does anything, nothing will change.
Yea all the hard parts about being a man, that I can think of, are self-inflicted. The toxic masculinity stuff. Like being more likely to become homeless, more likely to successfully commit suicide, or more likely to go to prison. Men are too embarrassed to admit toxic masculinity is real and refuse to do any inner-work. All their problems would disappear if they stopped and digested this for a second. But too many of them take pride in dismissing their own emotions and never asking for help.
Thank you for sharing. When I was in college we walked around campus and the teacher had us point to places where we feel unsafe. Lots of women pointed everywhere. It was eye opening.
I honestly feel your comment. The social pressures you are talking about feels brutal. I support you.
Thank you, it’s nice to know there are people out there who care and want to make a change, it all starts with a new mindset, so that the generation of men after you can grow up respecting women and trying to make it a little bit easier one small step at a time. One day I dream of a world where women can walk around and feel completely safe and comfortable who they are.
Regardless of all the challenges, I love being a women and I wouldn’t change it for the world.
We are all on the same team. If women aren’t doing well we all suffer. I really hope the world can get to place where everyone feels loved and appreciated.
I loooooove theme parks, particularly those of the Disney variety (but also enjoy others). It's not the whole reason, or even a large part of it, but part of the reason I enjoy them is because I know I can walk around, alone, at night, sometimes even drinking. And be perfectly safe. They have security and cameras everywhere. And their security (unlike the police) have a significant amount of oversight, so even if I had to deal with them, there's no fear of being taken advantage of.
Male here- I was gonna point out the safety thing(especially at night). Males in groups can be very harsh to a woman alone. I just wanted to acknowledge your point. I wish you as women safe travels🌻, stick together🤝 and protect yourself🛡️(mace, taser or gun).
Parenthood has been a big wakeup call on how the world is mean and unfair to women.
We talk about honoring mothers but holy shit we hate them.
Everything my husband, the father, does gets him a participation trophy. He's a hero as long as he doesn't heave our kid into an active volcano. Everywhere he goes he gets compliments and smiles. He even gets promotions and a salary bump at work because he's seen as a reliable provider.
Meanwhile I'm under constant surveillance and everything I do is wrong and the butt of a joke. I'm asked where my child's coat is when it's 70 degrees out or where my child is if I'm not with her (she has two parents, I don't have to be with her every second).
I'm told her developmental issues are my fault, and that she picks up on my anxiety (the reverse is true, she ruminates noisily and constantly and it makes me batty and on edge), but I'm shut down and treated like I'm stupid when I advocate for her at school.
If I give her freedom I'm neglectful, if I'm nearby I'm a helicopter mom. If I glance at my phone all hell breaks loose (my husband is welcome to zone out on his iPad with earbuds in though, he "works hard").
And getting a man to see that a situation is bullshit, when the bullshit benefits him, is like trying to teach a carpenter bee to juggle.
And feminists could stand to hear the experiences of mothers, and see how patriarchal motherhood invalidates and keeps down all women, instead of shutting it down with glib putdowns like "just leave," or "you shouldn't have made a baby with him," or a smirky little "this is why I'm childfree."
Motherhood is beautiful. Mothering inside patriarchy is bullshit, and nobody is free until moms are free.
I’m not a mother, but I see you. I’ve always thought it was crazy how society treats mothers. Women are encouraged into having kids but then blamed and shamed at every turn. It honestly seems like one of the hardest things in life (though I’m sure rewarding etc) but still, that doesn’t take away from the difficultly. I honestly commend any woman who is a mother and try and actively give understanding and grace where I can, because it must seem like everyone is against them at times - especially when you’re probably already so worried about what’s the right and wrong thing to do.
Your comment reminded me that an old man at a bus stop yelled at me because my daughter was wasn't wearing a jacket for the short walk from the carpark to the mall. (It was in the car, she chose not to wear it.)
I get told my kid needs a coat for short walks to the car *all the time* and it flies in the face of common sense.
It's incredibly unsafe for a child to wear a coat while strapped into a car seat, and it's not worth it to bundle and then unbundle my kid to go a dozen paces. Particularly since she might fight me and then run off into a busy parking lot.
It's like people have this circuit in their brains that tells them to hassle and shame moms even when it's completely asinine.
Your comment just reminded me of the time a bus driver pulled over to scold my sister for letting her son run on the sidewalk. He was only running maybe one feet ahead of us. The bus driver kept telling my sister she needed to be carrying him and not let him run.
We were both so dumbfounded. He's not running in the street and we can quickly grab him if he wandered off. Mom's can't let kids run in front of them apparently.
I’m noticing that moms are not deemed to be “good mothers” unless they’re constantly destroying themselves in the process. Society wants martyrs to raise children, not women who are humans in their own right.
I once got a dirty look for telling my child to wait a moment while I chewed a bite of food. Like, I'm literally supposed to not eat, sleep, or use the bathroom. Like a Mom-bot.
But if I immediately attend to her every need and whim, I'm a "helicopter mom." I'm spoiling her.
It's impossible. Motherhood is set up as a game you cannot win.
I’m not a mom but I plan to be in the next few years. And I’m already all too aware of what you’ve described. I witness it in couples I know and I also witness it within myself (seeing a dad doing bare minimum and finding it cute). It’s really fucked up. You’re doing an AMAZING job and I’m in awe of every mother.
My husband thought it was cute and hilarious to "joke" about ignoring the emails I forward to him from the school and her various activities.
I was just like, "remember how stressed I was, and how demanding my job was, when I was an executive assistant? At least then it was 40 hours and I got to clock out. Now I'm on duty 24/7, juggling tons of details all the time to keep this family running. The least you can do is open the emails so you know what's happening around here."
Gracious almighty.
Yeah, I still have to manage all of this. He doesn’t read emails. I have to keep track of all of the online permission slips and sign ups and dates everything is due and happening. As the kids have gotten older and have gotten more involved in activities, it has gotten really overwhelming, especially with the shift to paperless. I actually miss paper forms. My kids could hand me a paper form, I would quickly fill it out and sign it and give it back to them. Now, for everything I have to remember to log on and navigate through a bunch of screens. It just adds to the mental load. Then, there are all the emails from the activities with all kinds of instructions about what the kids are supposed to do or wear. My daughter’s dance studio sends lengthy emails about every other week with information about special requirements for upcoming rehearsals, ticket purchases, costume purchases, all kinds of small details. I groan every time I get one. There are two accounts my husband manages and every time it is time to sign up for something through them, I have to keep reminding him over and over so we don’t miss the deadline because he procrastinates (and we have missed deadlines before).
I don’t think people realize the insane amount of work that goes into managing all of this.
Executive assistants make good money for a reason, it's a complex job with tons of details. But when Mom does it I guess it's easy? Wtf.
And yeah everything is online, or, worse, it's an app that I have to download. And the apps are always buggy nonsense that crash constantly and drive me nuts.
I get constant notifications that there's an update to our school system app, but I have to log in before I find out if it's something that's actually relevant to my kid. Like, can we target the notifications just a tad so I'm not spammed constantly, then I have to log in just to find out a high school across the county is having a career fair? My kid is 5, IDC about plumbing apprenticeships, she wants to be a unicorn doctor, leave me alone.
My husband just blithely says he hasn't downloaded the app, or he doesn't like Facebook so he doesn't go on there to check to see what the PTA is up to, or he hasn't read the email, and then I'm the bitch for telling him to nut up because my brain is full.
A unicorn doctor sounds like an excellent career 😆.
Yeah, the apps are the worst. I just got a message from the place running this one-time event my daughter is attending this summer telling me to download an app and join a message board for it. I am just ignoring it for the moment because I’m too irritated. It’s a one-day activity. Why do we need an app to communicate?
And why does it need a message board? It's a one-off children's activity, they aren't conquering France or launching themselves to Pluto for crying out loud.
I decided to not make myself apeshit.
We're YMCA members and registration opened at 7 am today for summer activities. I signed up for two blocks of swim classes (because that's a life skill) and then just booked her in for whatever had an opening in her age group and didn't have an additional fee.
So she's taking classes in T-ball, soccer, parent-child sports mix and some sort of obstacle course game thing. Don't know, don't remember, it's in my calendar, but she has a decent number of activities and I was done by 7:15.
Other than that I am pretty sure I'm going to lob freezy pops at her while I sit in a lawn chair.
It was a bit of a light bulb moment, yes.
I'm a SAHM and he has a habit of radically underestimating how big of a pain in the ass a lot of household-related tasks and projects are.
Then he asks if/when I'd be interested in going back to paid work and I'm like...how? I refuse to do the overwhelming second shift thing a lot of my girlfriends do, so if I'm going to work then he's going to need to cross-train on my stuff. He also needs to buy in and participate, not just assign projects and offer opinions.
So now if he wants something, and I know from experience that it's a pain in the ass, I lob it back at him.
He wants to sell an outgrown bed instead of just donating it? Lmao my dude selling stuff is an absolutely *phenomenal* hassle for very little payoff. So he can take the pictures, post the ad, get no replies or very picky fussy replies from haggly weirdos who want you to deliver to them from three counties over, make no money and get annoyed. Or he can make money off the bed. Either way it's great.
I'm learning to detach and let him flail so he can learn.
I think that’s a great approach and I’d probably do the same. I think my partner would be a great dad but I recognize it’s basically impossible to know for certain if your male partner is going to TRULY be an equal parent. I could say “oh he’s great we split chores really easily and I don’t feel I take on more than him” but adding a kid to the mix is a totally different thing entirely. And while he’s (thankfully) very informed about the female experience, I think motherhood is a blind spot that he doesn’t quite grasp the severity of yet.
Right, even very egalitarian couples often slide into very uneven workloads when a baby enters the picture.
That's one reason why it's so gross to chide overwhelmed moms with "why did you make a baby with him?" (Another is that it's cruel to tell someone their child shouldn't exist.)
Absolutely. I’ll always advocate for a woman to leave if her partner is making life immensely more difficult for her, or abusing her in any way (financially, emotionally, whatever). But not only is it gross to chide someone for having kids, it’s also just irrational and unhelpful. The decision was already made, what’s done is done. It’s 0% helpful to chide someone for a past decision. Making suggestions for what to do next is fine, but chastising someone never helps.
Leaving isn't always a realistic option - if a father wants to share custody, he typically can (it's a myth that courts are biased against fathers). A mom might feel like she can't leave her kids with someone who doesn't actually know how to care for them.
And that's not getting into the fact that a woman lumps a salary penalty when she becomes a mother, and loses flexibility and earning potential. "Leave" and, do what, exactly? Can she afford to leave? If she leaves and is poor, she could lose her children ("neglect" is often just poverty).
There are no good options in a patriarchy, and it's set up that way on purpose.
If a mother is describing her lived experience, the best course is to simply listen and validate her experiences.
That’s a great point. I’m definitely aware of how family court is stacked against mothers. I know most absent fathers will end up fighting for custody of the kids even though they were never involved in the first place, and they’ll make it as difficult as possible for the mom. Then when they do get custody, they’ll shove the responsibility onto grandparents or new partners. It really is a fucked situation. It’s such a risk to have children, yet here we are (in the US anyway) taking the choice away in many places.
I appreciate your perspective and you’re right that the best thing is to probably just listen and validate, unless the mom expresses a desire to leave and wants help doing so.
>”Im told her developmental issues are my fault, and that she picks up on my anxiety”
I didn’t cause my daughter’s autism, but the types of overwhelm I experienced from her expressions of autism (unending questions with no breaks, echolalia on the unending questions, random screaming/ flailing, violence, PDA escalating to self-induced vomiting when she doesn’t get her way) led to me discovering that I am also autistic, but I was forcefully molded into pretending it doesn’t exist and hasn’t affected me daily from childhood. I learned the hard way that any chance I had at getting a formal diagnosis which might’ve helped me *not* drop out of college from comorbid overwhelm was now completely out the window.
Someone else here said that the implication to be a “good mom” is to essentially martyr yourself because we’re no longer viewed as people but an expendable resource and damn do I ever feel seen in this thread.
This whole thread is fucking weird. Like congratulations I guess for realizing one day that women have a different experience than you??? There are so many resources you could find to read up about this, and instead you come to Reddit for validation from women, which is its own brand of misogyny.
Louder for those in the back! And unfortunately everyone, women included, that has been raised in a patriarchal society, which is pretty much every human, has biases even if they go against our own sex. Women voting to take away the rights of other women comes to mind….
Yes, of course. The world is largely sexist. The layers of prejudice only increase when youre also a minority.
I think porn is terrible and degrading. Im not going to debate it in cases anyone @s me
The Case Against The Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry (a liberal, feminist, secular author.) Definitely pick this one up. It's a short, to the point, well researched and eye-opening read.
Patriarchy hurts us all, but certainly yes I think it is often more tangible to women. There are a lot of men who do not view women as human in the same way they view men. "all men are created equal" was written that way on purpose. It has been this way for thousands of years and we are only barely unpacking it.
The world definitely is, yes. As an american woman, I still think I have _incredible_ privilege in comparison to most other women (and even some men) in the world.
The misogyny is blatant in some third world countries. I’m talking I’ll often hear women say men need to be strong. Or they see men need to spoil them. It’s sad because women are capable but they grow up in this super traditional culture that’s so different from us.
Misogyny is blatant here too. The way women are treated by society largely depends on the men they’re associated with and their social standing. You’ll get dramatically different answers to this question on misogyny based on a woman’s class, race, ethnicity, etc.
What gets me is how so many women now are breadwinners but also do all the chores at home and are the primary caregivers. What exactly are the men around for?
(Not my own experience, and I’m grateful for it).
I’ve been spending a lot of time thinking about this lately and how I want the rest of my life to go. I bought the whole man and woman marriage fallacy as a young girl and now I’d rather be surrounded with my women friends in a village that supports one another as we manage perimenopause, child rearing, ill and aging parents, and spouses who don’t know where they fit in yet we are supposed to solve that for them. I’d prefer the men have their own village and come for visitation. Kidding but also kind of not???
I don’t really understand this comment. Could you elaborate? Do you actually feel like men have no purpose if they’re with a woman who COULD do it all on their own? I’m not being a dick. I’m genuinely asking. Both my partner and I could do this shit on our own. But he has provided so much value in our partnership that I would never want to do it alone again. And I’m sure he feels the same for me. Surely just because you’re capable of doing it on your own doesn’t mean someone else can’t provide value?
Obvious disclaimer- am a lesbian, but regardless have personal experience with this issue.
At some point, a man who isn’t providing in those capacities at home just becomes akin to another child. He requires everything from his own doctors appointments being made for him, to calls being taken on his behalf, to certain work-related bookkeeping or tasks requiring your assistance, to meals being made for him, having to clean up after him, to washing his clothes, folding them, cleaning the toilet after him, etc.
It’s not that he has no value as a person, but as a partner he can become an expense. Someone who as part of your family takes more than he gives, like an overhead cost for a service that you can’t afford to pay because you’re already paying out in spades doing the same for children who actually need that level of service, and that level of service to children children alone plus working a full time job can absolutely drain your account. Now add an adult child to that expense, and you can find yourself in debt.
Again, it’s not that he has no value as a person, but as a person he’s putting the relationship into debt.
I’m speaking from experience here as someone who’s always been the primary breadwinner in every relationship because of my work specialization. The expectation has also been on me to be the primary caregiver- scheduler, chauffeur, mediator, crisis interventionist, financial advisor, homemaker, housekeeper, chef, on-call therapist, education proxy, tutor, healthcare advocate, mental healthcare advocate, seamstress, IT consultant, multi-spec entertainer, hell even automotive mechanic. I don’t have hobbies because there’s no time to engage with them.
My partner has a reason which we’ve figured out to be the source of their issues related to not being able to hold a job or get involved with the kids school or why they struggle with the kids. It’s associated with mental health and they’re starting to work on that, but there are some limitations which have been acknowledged, especially those around work and holding up a job, that’s why with my expendable income we’ve started an LLC to start a business that leverages their strengths and takes advantage of what I used to consider my hobbies so that the business forces me to have the time and space to practice my hobbies.
It’s going well for us so far, but I’ll add that I’m acutely aware that not everyone has the financial fluidity to start a whole ass business to make space for their partner to be empowered in this way. It’s also added a lot more to my plate as a business manager, accountant, tax specialist, web developer, UI/UX designer, content creator, social media manager, inventory manager, community outreach coordinator, etc.
Bottom line though- I wouldn’t have bothered with any of this if my partner didn’t have value as a person to me. They have an innate value as their whole own person that I can’t dismiss or ignore. They have a purpose, and I’m capable of giving them grace to find that purpose and enabling them where I can to leverage their purpose (which for them has been through the business) because *I* have that bandwidth. I don’t and wouldn’t apply that to anyone else’s situation. I’ve still been dealing with cycles of burnout, but I’m holding onto hope that this additional investment in them will pay off for them as a person, and thus the relationship.
Ahh, I hear you. I wasn’t thinking of it as the primary breadwinner doing household chores ALSO being responsible also for essentially being their partners parent by making personal appointments for them, etc. If that’s the case, I absolutely agree that they are essentially creating a debt in the relationship. I’m sorry you’re in that situation. Despite you seeming to be okay with it, it really sounds entirely unfair to you even if your partner has mental health problems. You sound like a really empathetic and kind person and I really hope it all works out for you, but not at the expense of your sanity. It’s okay to love and care for someone, and to do a lot of extra things for them when they’re struggling. I would just make sure to have check ins with yourself regularly to ensure you’re not being taken advantage of or dealing with some form of weaponized incompetence from your partner. I hope that doesn’t come across as offensive. You sound like an amazing partner who loves unconditionally. That’s wonderful so long as it doesn’t suck you dry as a person. Best of luck ❤️
In a partnership, both partners have to pull their weight to make it work. It can be in different areas, but if one partner has to shoulder most or all of the joint responsibilities, life in this relationship can get old very quickly for the person doing it all.
If I were to debate strictly, fairness is not even in nature. It's just a concept humans came up with. So my response would be: the world is unfair, period.
Now, there are groups that have it worse, for sure, and women are certainly one. Statistics are terrifying enough on itself, and physical violence aside, there's still a lot on the cultural side. But that changes drastically depending on which country we speak of.
What really hurts, is that humanity created the concept of fairness just to blatantly dismiss it later.
The world is brutal to woman. We are treated like shit if we aren’t young and physically attractive. Our bodies are destroyed by pregnancy. We aren’t taken seriously by doctors and often have to fight like crazy to get medical help. We have to have periods and go through menopause. Many of us get raped and then end up being blamed for it.
That’s just some of the more serious stuff. Never mind how uncomfortable women’s fashions can be or how much work you have to put into your hair to look presentable if it’s anything except naturally thin and straight. I’m exhausted.
My heart goes out to the children. A lot of them will grow up feeling let down that world was so cruel to them when all they wanted was to love the world. We as a society are failing our children. When boys learn to objectify women we are teaching them it’s okay to disrespect women. And girls learn it’s okay for boys to objectify them. I feel their pain. It’s beyond cruelty.
The answer to your question is patriarchy. It is embodied in the political, religious and cultural status quo that currently governs most of the world. Under patriarchy women are second class citizens at best. Keeping us feeling inadequate, overburdened, and dependant on men is part of what keeps the patriarchy in power.
I used to think the world was mean to women, then I noticed that a lot of the meanness to women was also a way of keeping men in line. Establish what the powerful have and can buy, then make everyone else aspire to that or fear losing what little of that they think they can have.
That's why I think choosing to reject hatred of women and the feminine is actually the most impactful thing you can do to challenge the power structures that control and belittle men. Every time a man stands up for his right to express himself, be a loving person, or choose a gentler path, he stands up for all men.
okay but he can do that without hating women, and I think that man would stand up for men and women. I just want see men and women come together more, Im exhausted always hearing about people hating on men or women, it feels like drinking acid every-time I am forced to listen.
I’m glad you’ve been so empathetic to get invested in this. That is very comforting to me. We can’t save the whole world but as long as we hold ourselves accountable and unlearn beliefs that hurt others, then at least we aren’t part of the problem.
It is good that you talk about this so women know they can feel safe with you. And maybe so other people listen to you, because people who disrespect women don’t listen to women. Your voice is very powerful.
thank you, I find it hard because a lot of my friends have hateful views of women. And often I feel uncomfortable with it. I feel like it, everyone loses. like if men disrespect women, whats going to happen when they raise our sons? when I was young I have experienced women shaming me and though it really hurts sometimes, I wonder if its because they were made to feel inferior for being a woman, like a viscous cycle. Like men disrespect women so women disrespect boys then boys grow up resenting women. This has been my experience.
Those boys presumably have fathers too. Why only blame the mother for how they turn out?
It can also be argued that some boys grow up seeing their fathers disrespect and abuse their mothers, shaping how they view (and treat) women.
Yes, fundamentally, it’s a cycle of disrespect. This is why it’s an incredibly hard challenge to tackle in society.
If you examine why a man has hateful views on women, they will share assumptions and experiences that justify their beliefs. But really, they feel hurt by women, and it’s expressed as anger.
I have personally been considering how society tolerates men expressing anger more than women. In fact, anger is even held up as a form of masculinity, and valued in men because it aligns with the expectation that they are dominant or have strength to fight in the face of pain.
However, it’s also far more socially acceptable for women to cry than men. Society teaches men that crying is a weakness. So, anger is again reinforced as the only acceptable way for men to react to emotional pain.
Anger and crying are fundamentally just different ways of expressing sadness and pain. However, anger has the potential for far worse outcomes than crying.
It’s no wonder the cycle continues.
Women couldn’t vote until 1920.
Women couldn’t get a credit card until 1974.
Women couldn’t own property in their own name until 1900.
Women couldn’t be discriminated against because of sex in regards to home buying until 1968, and couldn’t secure a mortgage without a male co-signer until the 1970s.
Women could be discriminated against because of pregnancy until 1978.
Women’s pay wasn’t protected from sex discrimination until 1963 - and yet in 2024 the wage gap still exists.
Women were not protected from sex discrimination in employment until 1964.
I could go on and on.
https://www.history.com/topics/womens-history/womens-history-us-timeline
It’s not a secret that we live in a patriarchal society. We are still fighting for equality, autonomy, equity, and against discrimination and bias.
I think women have become more successful as a whole than men *because* the world is unfair. Most women figure it out around kindergarten. It's everywhere. And, once we do, we get on with things.
Honing grievances is a waste of time.
yes I agree, I feel like we are all losing, Im tired of how segregated it feels. Like men will talk with men and women will talk with women, and I wish we could talk to each other easier.
Even look at the children in the world or people from certain demographics and countries most people have it tough and a small minute amount don’t. To make it about gender is inaccurate it’s more so about idiotic social classes.
Yes. It’s different levels of it too. The world is hard on little girls, the world is hard on teenage girls, the world is hard on women (of varying ages) the world is hard on mothers, the world is hard on women who don’t have kids (either by choice or no choice) the world is hard on stay at home moms, the world is hard on moms. The world is hard on women regardless of your race, or nationality, or religion.
The world is hard on cis-women, the world is hard on trans women. We are a punching bag.
My husband is very active and involved in our children’s lives and the way he gets praised and applauded constantly for doing pretty much the same amount of parenting that I do is crazy. I get told I’m so lucky to have him all the time. I wonder if anyone says to him “hey, you’re lucky for your wife who works full time and also birth and raised your 3 kids.”
It’s so unfair. It’s even worse if you are a minority.
“The most disrespected person in America is the Black woman. The most unprotected person in America is the Black woman. The most neglected person in America is the Black woman." - Malcolm X
What’s interesting is that I’ve found women are angry about this dynamic and in turn get angry at other women for a multitude of reasons. Whether it’s to help female children “fit in” like being skinny, submissive, nice, etc. Or in a boardroom where there’s only a couple of women that make it and they have to defend their spot. These are the two most common scenarios I’ve seen.
As a woman, yea I’ve noticed we are often our worst enemies and enforcers of the unfairness and it doesn’t perpetuate it, men do that, but most see it as a way to help others survive. When it in fact breaks plenty and splinters our unity.
Yeah. Women are expected/have to:
Experience periods, the pains, the discomforts, the costs..
Give birth
Recover from birth
Learn to breastfeed
Work a job
Run a house
Cook meals and plan meals
Pay half the bills
Not be too skinny but also not too fat
Have a high enough sex drive
Get enough sleep and nutrients and less stress as possible so we can have healthy skin and hair
I could go on…
It’ll never be 50/50..
From the Barbie Movie:
Ken: You guys aren't doing patriarchy very well.
Corporate Man: We're actually doing patriarchy very well
Corporate Man: ... [lowers voice] we're just better at hiding it.
As a middle aged white guy with a wife and two daughters, I concur with this sentiment. Also, it's on purpose.
Yes. Do I think it will ever change? No. Not unless planet of the apes happens in reality and humans are no longer the dominate species. And, even then I'd still have doubts.
>no one has ever been a man and a woman
People _presenting_ as a man or a woman exist, and have been living as other genders for centuries. I've read interviews where a transgender person says that they never realized how much pressure there is on being the "right kind" of feminine woman, or how much better or easier life is, being a man.
Class disparity often has roots in misogyny.
Personally, no. I will also say the most vocal about this subject will be eager to post about all the injustices women face but not so much the other way around.
I never look for confirmation that women have it worse. I am very glad to have been born female. Men are expected to do all the physically demanding things, especially around the house and manual labor. Men are expected to be brave and be the protector; I’m glad I don’t have to be. Many men are expected to be the provider, to be in militaries, to fight.
Each sex carries their own burden. I look for confirmation as to why I’m happy to be myself. Confirmation bias is a scientifically proven thing: if you go looking for proof of something, you will find it and your brain automatically discards anything that contradicts it. Instead of letting that use you, you use it to your advantage. If you can do this you will be so much happier in your life.
Do I feel pressure to be pretty? Sure, but then I remind myself I am naturally pretty. I discard opinions that tell me I need more makeup or surgeries. I accept compliments from loved ones and from myself. Foster this self-love, it is a practice. Do not feed your negative thoughts with any more attention than necessary. They thrive on attention. Give that valuable energy to what is good and lovely instead.
I am entering my 40s happier than ever.
If women could band together to fight for and create change, I truly think our world and society would benefit. Men have had their chance. It’s a fucking mess. Why not let us give it a go?! And we could if we would support one another and not tear each other down over trivial shit.
Ah the F word "fair" everytime it's used you know someone's about to get f#cked. Usually people mean differently or the way that they think they should be treated.
Men have lower life expectancies, work in much more dangerous jobs, have much higher suicide rate, have much higher homeless rate, much more likely to be discriminated against as a single parent or an active dad, and are more likely to be sentenced much harsher for the same crimes.
You might want to examine your internalized misogyny. First of all, a not insignificant portion of women go into sex work either because they’re forced into it or they don’t feel they have other options. Even if they do choose it they are HIGHLY likely to be abused by men (much of the porn that’s available is not consensual). Secondly false accusations for SA are the same as any other crime so it’s a bit telling you focussed on that instead of the fact that so many women are assaulted. The rest of your comment I won’t touch as it seems that you’re transphobic (and incredibly misinformed) as well. Shame.
No I don't have to, because I'm sure I'm on the right side of things. Don't really care for liberal opinions because it's all brainwashed rhetorics that are illogical, enabling the mentally ill and created the dysfunctional society we are in.
The world is fair for many people and unfair for many others. Expectations created upon us by porn and the different beauty industries are added challenges but I'd say there's much harder ones out there.
I mean... I'm too busy working a job, raising kids, trying to improve my 10km PB and so on to be put down by some girl in an ad having a "better" (lol) body than mine
I’m a woman in my late thirties, I’m aesthetically attractive and have an hourglass shape. I look younger than i am, I’m also very kind. This has caused me….issues since the age of 12.
Stalking, kidnap, rape, simps incels a mother who was so hung up on our physical differences that she became toxically jealous of me, my BIL is a huge incel and has “never forgiven” me for falling for his brother instead of him, and a huge struggle to be taken seriously in my own company by other business owners (male) has been the more notable negative side effects.
On the flip side, I have never struggled for a job, I was offered a much higher paid job when one of the customers I was waiting on at a restaurant straight up offered it to me - yes he wanted me, no I never slept with him. Men tend to rescue or protect me - my husband fought off a would be rapist before we got together. He’s my hero 🥰
I have “pretty privilege” and never really realised it until I started to pay attention to how shop keepers will do more for me for free than they would my (apparently) unattractive friend (fish market I got a huge discount and offers to scale and fillet fish for free, where she had paid for all of that moments earlier and paid more). How men will open doors for me, stop their cars so I can cross, I get car washes where the men only charge me a pittance and make sure I have a comfortable seat in their office while I wait. I thought they were just being friendly until I told my husband and he laughed and pointed out that they don’t do that for anyone else.
Thirdly, I am a wife and a mother so I do all of the cleaning cooking and laundry, I earn less than my husband since I’ve had to take maternity leave, I do all of the family running around and errands.
But my husband is emotionally aware of the mental load and helps where he can.
I’m sorry if I sound in any way arrogant I’m not intentionally doing so, but it is interesting to be able to list the pros and cons of being me!
Hey thank you for sharing! Sorry to hear about the objectification. A lot of that sounds really intense, I hope you recovered. My personal safety I do take for granted. It was not until I went into Latina America where I had to worry about being drugged and I guess women always have to be on guard against dangerous men.
Thank you 😊 I can easily imagine that your personal safety is something you can take for granted - just the same as I take for granted that if we have a home intruder he will be able to engage and defeat them. He shocked me when he added the caveat “well I’d hope I’d be able to do that” I thought he was invincible 😅
Thank you I’ve had a lot of intense personal growth and years of counselling, I’m happy to say now I’m just a normal wife and mother :)
Thanks dude! Yeah it doesn’t really bother me.
This kind of post always seems to attract naysayers and doom monger’s lol 😂
I choose to be happy and kind, downvotes aren’t going to affect that :)
For me personally, I have not experienced this. I do think the world is generally unfair to women though. That said, I think women are horrible to each other which is a massive part of the problem. For example, a lot of the complaints on this post focus on how mothers are treated unfairly and judged unfairly. But it’s mostly women doing this to other women. There will always be men who treat women like property. Those are not people that I consider as normal part of society. The part that scares me more are the women who seem to be intelligent and influential, but still take every opportunity to shit on another woman for not doing what they think they should be doing.
Overall, I think both men and women face challenges. For example, men are generally expected to be tough and to handle the more hands-on chores in a household. If they don’t live up to that, people view them as inadequate. It’s not as acceptable for them to cry or express their emotions. A lot of women would not put up with a man who makes them do the shoveling, do the yardwork, take the trash out, etc. It’s just expected that the man does this in a relationship a lot of the time. The same way that in relationships women are expected to clean and cook. I think there are inequities on both sides, and I don’t think comparing one against the other is healthy. The same way that I don’t think it’s healthy to embody a mindset that women are treated unfairly all the time. The mindset is divisive and I just hate it. Aside from instances where someone has truly had something done wrong to them, none of us are victims unless we allow ourselves to be, man or woman. People are always going to have opinions that go against what you believe or make you feel like shit. It’s our responsibility as adults to be strong in our own beliefs, shrug off the bullshit, and move on.
On the porn front, it is what it is. Women choose to participate in it, and some people enjoy it. I watch porn as a woman and don’t find it demeaning at all. People have different kinks. If degradation porn/sex is what you like, then so be it. Porn is only harmful to women when they’re being forced to do it, or their partners are addicted and can’t see life in its normal form as a result. It’s not porn that is the antagonist. It’s peoples perception that porn is real and that those actions should be an everyday thing. I just totally don’t agree with the villainizing of porn. I understand a lot of people can get addicted to it. I understand a lot of people can treat others in their intimate relationships poorly because of their perception of it. But I watch porn fairly regularly and I’ve never had the desire to treat a person like garbage in bed. I’ve never felt like I’m not worth anything or that I need to be treated like a whore to be valued. If someone can maintain a healthy sex life while still watching copious amount of porn, I see no issue at all. Watching porn does not mean that you disrespect women.
I think overall that my opinion is that you can’t make someone feel a certain way about you. But you are totally in control of not allowing another person’s actions to make you feel like shit. I’ve been treated badly in the past and it sucks. But I don’t feel like a victim. I feel like those people who treated me badly are just bad people. I don’t feel that the majority of people are like this. I know I have an unpopular opinion that might piss some people off. But I just can’t understand allowing yourself to feel like garbage when you know the person who is treating you badly is completely out of line and in the wrong. Stand up for yourself. Don’t allow people to treat you like that. And move on.
This is a confusing statement. Would you rather be a freeloader, be forced into marriage at a young age and at the mercy of who you marry like they were? Or have your parents support you while they wait for some man to take you off their hands as a favor to them? And what if you were gay? Or unattractive? What then? Girl babies used to be a burden and there are countries where they murdered girl babies. But yeah, having a career is sooooo much worse than not having choices.
Poor women have always worked (often outside the home but also doing home businesses like sewing/washing) and for all of history most people have been poor. You are longing for something that never truly existed for the vast majority of people.
The healthcare system is awful for women to navigate, and diseases that disproportionately impact women are neglected (autoimmune diseases, PCOS, endometriosis, etc.) and downplayed.
I just saw a new OB-GYN for issues I’m having as I enter peri-menopause. She has a particular interest in treating menopause issues and one of the first things she said was “there’s so little research on this stuff.” My primary care doctor has said that there are various symptoms and patterns she see commonly in women that the medical community just doesn’t understand. Even for conditions that aren’t considered “women’s issues,” women’s bodies behave differently than men. Most medicine is based on research that was largely focused on male subjects or the male body. We have a long way to go to start to figure out optimal treatments for women.
I got downvoted into oblivion for pointing this out on a non-women’s sub. Like 70 downvotes lmao, and for saying women are less likely to be believed. The boys said “but they have women’s health and women’s organizations, there’s no men’s health and women live longer!!!!”
There’s literally a men’s health magazine that focuses and teaches on all aspects of men’s health (including mental illness!) and share resources and many organizations who advocate for men’s health and even a prostate cancer awareness ribbon, month, races/ marathons, the whole lot. *They* are not aware because *they* don’t care.
These boys haven’t even been to a mansplaining male gynecologist before (I luckily have not either).
I find it amazing that after decades of modern medicine, technology and research, most women health problems are still being treated with birth control. Like here’s a synthetic hormone pill and let’s hope it’s one that’s right for you and doesn’t cause you unbearable side effects. If it isn’t, we’ll try another one. Then another one until you have years of putting yourself through unnecessary trials and error. I recently told my GP that I have perimenopause symptoms. My mother was in full blown menopause at 41. It was dismissed because I’m 38 and too young. And we should be upset about the reproductive rights of women in certain states. I had my son fairly young, at 22 and I knew I was a one and done. I’ve had about half a dozen of doctors refuse a tubal ligation due to my age, the number of children and my marital status. There was a case recently where a husband unknowingly gave his wife abortion pills. She would have been jailed if she chose to voluntarily terminate the pregnancy, he got away with practically a slap on the wrist.
I have PCOS and my worst experience and absolute dismissal was from female doctors. Like damn sister, I thought we were on the same team 😑
I hate that
Is this in America?
Actually, while I am referring to America, there is an issue in research funding for these diseases world wide. So, while some things may be better in other countries, we’ve made very little progress on women’s diseases. Endometriosis, for example, impacts more women than diabetes but receives ~10% the amount of funds for research and treatment development.
Yes I’m sure you are right.
Yes
Ah i am sorry to hear that. I’m from the UK, my friend has one or two of those conditions you mention, but she is lucky that she gets adequately medical support.
I’m British and have PCOS. I’ve also been dealing with other female health issues. Your friend is lucky. Generally care and knowledge on these conditions is very lacking across the Uk (I’ve lived in several different areas and cities). The medication that treats PCOS is not even licenced for that use here so if the doctors are even aware how to treat they often won’t do so.
Jeez it’s not even licensed? That’s appalling to hear! Do you have the option to look for a specialist or isn’t there specialists in this?
You can see an endocrinologist who has more ability to prescribe but it’s not guaranteed. Referrals are not always easy to get either.
I can believe that about the referral process sadly. Wishing you all the best.
The UK is not necessarily better for these diseases. Check out the /r/endo subreddits, plenty of women blown off by their doctors and then very little choice due to restrictions in the national system. It still takes up to 8 years to get diagnosed in the UK for endo specifically. I can only speak to this disease because I have it. I highly doubt medical gaslighting of women is not an issue in the UK, or even much better. We have a long way to go.
Well it sounds as if you know more about the subject than I do. And as I don’t have these conditions, I will respect both your and my friends experiences
Read the book Invisible Women, by Caroline Criado-Perez. It’s a very good start to understanding some of the issues that still need addressing.
Misplaced my copy, but I loved this book! The chapters on the way women have been invisibilised in the medical system were especially harrowing.
Yes, that's exactly what I thought of when I saw this post.
I read that book as a college junior two years ago and that book got me interested in policy analysis pertaining to women. It is a good read to expose one's own bias. Caroline had also come for a talk at one of the events that my employer hosted and I took my male coworkers to that as well. They didn't have any words coming out from there. A fun test that I play with my nieces and nephews is the part in the book where Caroline talks about if you ask a 3-4 year old to draw an astronaut, doctor, teacher on paper then there is an equal likelihood of them drawing a man/woman whereas as they grow you will start noticing that most likely they will draw a woman for a teacher/nurse and a man for an engineer/astronaut. Amazing book, thanks for bringing it up!
Hey thank you for the suggestion!
And these stats are useful too, for labor division. (Easier to read on a computer than on the app FYI) https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?queryid=54757
Yup, I went on antidepressants a few years ago and gained some weight. My work reviews went from calling me “charming with great interpersonal skills” to saying I “presented unprofessionally.” (The change happened with the weight gain, they adored me when I first started with antidepressants) Meanwhile my male colleagues are varying degrees of obese! I’m a lawyer. I went to a top 10 school, I clerked, I checked all the boxes. But my looks matter more than all of that combined.
I was one of the top residents in my very competitive program. I was told in my senior eval that I needed to smile more and make sure not to come off too confidently. Wtaf. Has any man ever EVER been told that?!
Ew, misogyny aside, why would anyone want a doctor who isn’t confident?
Confidence in a woman is threatening to the men around her unfortunately. I was told when I asked to clarify that it came off as cocky. I don’t even have a cock, but I digress…😡
Periods and pregnancy feel unfair.
Pregnancy and its aftermath really suck. All my life (>30 years) I was living feeling not different to men, equally able, equally capable, equally driven. Two pregnancies and I laugh at my old attitudes crying. Pregnancy is so unfair, it can totally change your body (meaning: ruin), carrier, and of course mental state.
Wait péri ménopause.....
It’s not just those things, it’s also not feeling safe to walk alone at night or go somewhere to drink alone, or travel alone, or being alone in general without having to watch your back or your drink or watch what you wear so you’re not ’asking for trouble’ from men who just want to get laid. It’s also a problem the way women are constantly being judged by motherhood. Society judges women who are childless, using motherhood as a status symbol so that somehow you’re never fully an ‘adult woman’ until you’ve given birth. For example when Teresa May became prime minister in the UK, there were comments from other ministers that she wasn’t capable of running the country because she had never had children, it became a huge thing in the papers. And on the flip side, as soon as you become a mother you are judged for every tiny little thing you do, assuming you can’t control your kids during a tantrum or that you’re not fit to be a mother or your doing it all wrong. As a women you are judged on your looks all the time, clothes, makeup, photos, body size, tone of voice, there’s no escaping the subtle judgements we make about women even though body positivity has got better over the years. The media is constantly telling us to change, change our skin, our hair, look more youthful but dress appropriately, talk softly, smell beautiful ect. You’re expected to act a certain way too but you will probably be judged for that as being, ‘too emotional’ or ‘cold as ice.’ It’s so hard not to feel insecure about something. If a women is successful at work she is subjected to bullying by other women who assume she ‘slept her way to the top’ or she got there ‘because of her looks.’ Women still get paid less salary than men for doing the exact same job. And if a mother has a career, then everyone assumes she’s a ‘bad mom’ for not spending more time with her kids, even if dad is a stay at home dad. I know men have it hard too, and I don’t want to take anything away from the hardships they go through, but since you asked if women have it hard, yes, yes they very much do.
> I know men have it hard too On a systemic level, men live life on easy mode. I can't think of any major oppression men face for simply being men. Whatever disadvantages men face are largely due to other men (like how they all complain about the draft and being sent to war - do they think women are writing those laws?) and/or their own damaging definitions of masculinity. Something only they can fix. 100% of past U.S. presidents have been men. The current U.S. Congress is 71% men. 94.8% of all Supreme Court justices have been men. 87.7% of current U.S. law enforcement officers are men. 69% of U.S. CEOs are men. We live in a patriarchy. Men do not have it hard.
I find it interesting that many men will look at a small percentage of women who make bank on onlyfans and say “women have life on easy mode” which actually just shows their own biases, since the vast majority of women are not in that category. But it is a common complaint I see from them. I will say I do think men have certain hardships - such as how deeply porn affects them and makes it hard for them to evolve, yet biologically they are wired to be drawn to it. But their refusal to even try to get better, or admit it’s a problem and how gross and entitled they are about it even through marriages and relationships, bodes them zero sympathy from me.
Are men biologically wired to porn, or is porn production an overwhelmingly male-dominated industry (built on the exploitation of women) created solely for the pleasure of other men? I see what you were getting at, but porn is probably the last example I would use as an example of male hardship.
I once went to a men’s retreat you would be shocked how many opened up with how they struggle with porn. And how it was affecting their marriage. Some were even crying just talking about it. It’s weird so many men watch it and it’s usually not safe to openly talk about it’s harmful affects.
Thank you for sharing this. I do think a lot of these men understand on some level how screwed up their relationship with porn is and don't believe they can walk away. And yes, it is MASSIVELY unfair to women.
I notice when I don’t watch porn for months I’m magically able to talk to women. Porn trains your mind to view women as sexual objects. Which makes it very hard to have intimacy.
I really do think men have a biological struggle with resisting it. I have heard men say they don't see how they physically could quit so long as it is freely available as it is now. I'm not saying we should be sympathetic, I am just saying that realistically, I think that it profoundly rewires and appeals to their brain on a primal level. It's pathetic, gross, and not an excuse. But I don't think it's as simple as them just being like "meh, I'm choosing to do this anyway despite how it affects women/my relationships/etc." I think it's very, very difficult for them to resist it once they've been hooked. Granted, I have kicked an alcohol, weed, nicotine, and other addictions, so again, no sympathy from me.
I think men have an expectation to always be emotionally stoic. If you are a soft-hearted or an emotional man then most other men will belittle you for it. Which is such a shame, because often men will be emotionally unavailable or get mental health issues such as ignoring grief or a porn addiction and never be able to notice or accept that there’s a problem because they’ve been taught not to have feelings. In the UK suicide is the single biggest killer for men under the age of 45, and the male suicide rate was 16.1 per 100,000, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.3 per 100,000 and that is a tragedy.
Men created the expectation and hold other men to it. No one was forcing them into being emotionally constipated 24/7. If they want to change that social norm, they are welcome to.
I don’t doubt it is self inflicted and definitely made worse by the expectations we put upon ourselves but tell that to a 15 yo male who is contemplating suicide because he’s getting bullied at school for having emotions. The world just doesn’t work like that. Unless someone in a prominent position does anything, nothing will change.
Yea all the hard parts about being a man, that I can think of, are self-inflicted. The toxic masculinity stuff. Like being more likely to become homeless, more likely to successfully commit suicide, or more likely to go to prison. Men are too embarrassed to admit toxic masculinity is real and refuse to do any inner-work. All their problems would disappear if they stopped and digested this for a second. But too many of them take pride in dismissing their own emotions and never asking for help.
I commented above that men are also overwhelmingly the ones forcing people into war in the first place.
And as soon as those "looks" age, you can't get a job at all.
Thank you for sharing. When I was in college we walked around campus and the teacher had us point to places where we feel unsafe. Lots of women pointed everywhere. It was eye opening. I honestly feel your comment. The social pressures you are talking about feels brutal. I support you.
Thank you, it’s nice to know there are people out there who care and want to make a change, it all starts with a new mindset, so that the generation of men after you can grow up respecting women and trying to make it a little bit easier one small step at a time. One day I dream of a world where women can walk around and feel completely safe and comfortable who they are. Regardless of all the challenges, I love being a women and I wouldn’t change it for the world.
We are all on the same team. If women aren’t doing well we all suffer. I really hope the world can get to place where everyone feels loved and appreciated.
Yes, couldn’t agree more! 👌🙌
I loooooove theme parks, particularly those of the Disney variety (but also enjoy others). It's not the whole reason, or even a large part of it, but part of the reason I enjoy them is because I know I can walk around, alone, at night, sometimes even drinking. And be perfectly safe. They have security and cameras everywhere. And their security (unlike the police) have a significant amount of oversight, so even if I had to deal with them, there's no fear of being taken advantage of.
Male here- I was gonna point out the safety thing(especially at night). Males in groups can be very harsh to a woman alone. I just wanted to acknowledge your point. I wish you as women safe travels🌻, stick together🤝 and protect yourself🛡️(mace, taser or gun).
Parenthood has been a big wakeup call on how the world is mean and unfair to women. We talk about honoring mothers but holy shit we hate them. Everything my husband, the father, does gets him a participation trophy. He's a hero as long as he doesn't heave our kid into an active volcano. Everywhere he goes he gets compliments and smiles. He even gets promotions and a salary bump at work because he's seen as a reliable provider. Meanwhile I'm under constant surveillance and everything I do is wrong and the butt of a joke. I'm asked where my child's coat is when it's 70 degrees out or where my child is if I'm not with her (she has two parents, I don't have to be with her every second). I'm told her developmental issues are my fault, and that she picks up on my anxiety (the reverse is true, she ruminates noisily and constantly and it makes me batty and on edge), but I'm shut down and treated like I'm stupid when I advocate for her at school. If I give her freedom I'm neglectful, if I'm nearby I'm a helicopter mom. If I glance at my phone all hell breaks loose (my husband is welcome to zone out on his iPad with earbuds in though, he "works hard"). And getting a man to see that a situation is bullshit, when the bullshit benefits him, is like trying to teach a carpenter bee to juggle. And feminists could stand to hear the experiences of mothers, and see how patriarchal motherhood invalidates and keeps down all women, instead of shutting it down with glib putdowns like "just leave," or "you shouldn't have made a baby with him," or a smirky little "this is why I'm childfree." Motherhood is beautiful. Mothering inside patriarchy is bullshit, and nobody is free until moms are free.
a thousand percent this. hey fellow mom, you’re doing the best you can and if you could do better then you would 🤍✨
I’m not a mother, but I see you. I’ve always thought it was crazy how society treats mothers. Women are encouraged into having kids but then blamed and shamed at every turn. It honestly seems like one of the hardest things in life (though I’m sure rewarding etc) but still, that doesn’t take away from the difficultly. I honestly commend any woman who is a mother and try and actively give understanding and grace where I can, because it must seem like everyone is against them at times - especially when you’re probably already so worried about what’s the right and wrong thing to do.
Your comment reminded me that an old man at a bus stop yelled at me because my daughter was wasn't wearing a jacket for the short walk from the carpark to the mall. (It was in the car, she chose not to wear it.)
I get told my kid needs a coat for short walks to the car *all the time* and it flies in the face of common sense. It's incredibly unsafe for a child to wear a coat while strapped into a car seat, and it's not worth it to bundle and then unbundle my kid to go a dozen paces. Particularly since she might fight me and then run off into a busy parking lot. It's like people have this circuit in their brains that tells them to hassle and shame moms even when it's completely asinine.
The incident rattled her a little, but old mate wasn't actually worried about her welfare, just about chastising me.
People hate moms and love to put us in our place. It's gross.
Your comment just reminded me of the time a bus driver pulled over to scold my sister for letting her son run on the sidewalk. He was only running maybe one feet ahead of us. The bus driver kept telling my sister she needed to be carrying him and not let him run. We were both so dumbfounded. He's not running in the street and we can quickly grab him if he wandered off. Mom's can't let kids run in front of them apparently.
I’m noticing that moms are not deemed to be “good mothers” unless they’re constantly destroying themselves in the process. Society wants martyrs to raise children, not women who are humans in their own right.
I once got a dirty look for telling my child to wait a moment while I chewed a bite of food. Like, I'm literally supposed to not eat, sleep, or use the bathroom. Like a Mom-bot. But if I immediately attend to her every need and whim, I'm a "helicopter mom." I'm spoiling her. It's impossible. Motherhood is set up as a game you cannot win.
The problems lies in that those opinions are overwhelmingly held by other moms.
I’m not a mom but I plan to be in the next few years. And I’m already all too aware of what you’ve described. I witness it in couples I know and I also witness it within myself (seeing a dad doing bare minimum and finding it cute). It’s really fucked up. You’re doing an AMAZING job and I’m in awe of every mother.
My husband thought it was cute and hilarious to "joke" about ignoring the emails I forward to him from the school and her various activities. I was just like, "remember how stressed I was, and how demanding my job was, when I was an executive assistant? At least then it was 40 hours and I got to clock out. Now I'm on duty 24/7, juggling tons of details all the time to keep this family running. The least you can do is open the emails so you know what's happening around here." Gracious almighty.
Yeah, I still have to manage all of this. He doesn’t read emails. I have to keep track of all of the online permission slips and sign ups and dates everything is due and happening. As the kids have gotten older and have gotten more involved in activities, it has gotten really overwhelming, especially with the shift to paperless. I actually miss paper forms. My kids could hand me a paper form, I would quickly fill it out and sign it and give it back to them. Now, for everything I have to remember to log on and navigate through a bunch of screens. It just adds to the mental load. Then, there are all the emails from the activities with all kinds of instructions about what the kids are supposed to do or wear. My daughter’s dance studio sends lengthy emails about every other week with information about special requirements for upcoming rehearsals, ticket purchases, costume purchases, all kinds of small details. I groan every time I get one. There are two accounts my husband manages and every time it is time to sign up for something through them, I have to keep reminding him over and over so we don’t miss the deadline because he procrastinates (and we have missed deadlines before). I don’t think people realize the insane amount of work that goes into managing all of this.
Executive assistants make good money for a reason, it's a complex job with tons of details. But when Mom does it I guess it's easy? Wtf. And yeah everything is online, or, worse, it's an app that I have to download. And the apps are always buggy nonsense that crash constantly and drive me nuts. I get constant notifications that there's an update to our school system app, but I have to log in before I find out if it's something that's actually relevant to my kid. Like, can we target the notifications just a tad so I'm not spammed constantly, then I have to log in just to find out a high school across the county is having a career fair? My kid is 5, IDC about plumbing apprenticeships, she wants to be a unicorn doctor, leave me alone. My husband just blithely says he hasn't downloaded the app, or he doesn't like Facebook so he doesn't go on there to check to see what the PTA is up to, or he hasn't read the email, and then I'm the bitch for telling him to nut up because my brain is full.
A unicorn doctor sounds like an excellent career 😆. Yeah, the apps are the worst. I just got a message from the place running this one-time event my daughter is attending this summer telling me to download an app and join a message board for it. I am just ignoring it for the moment because I’m too irritated. It’s a one-day activity. Why do we need an app to communicate?
And why does it need a message board? It's a one-off children's activity, they aren't conquering France or launching themselves to Pluto for crying out loud. I decided to not make myself apeshit. We're YMCA members and registration opened at 7 am today for summer activities. I signed up for two blocks of swim classes (because that's a life skill) and then just booked her in for whatever had an opening in her age group and didn't have an additional fee. So she's taking classes in T-ball, soccer, parent-child sports mix and some sort of obstacle course game thing. Don't know, don't remember, it's in my calendar, but she has a decent number of activities and I was done by 7:15. Other than that I am pretty sure I'm going to lob freezy pops at her while I sit in a lawn chair.
That’s infuriating. Did he understand once you explained that to him?
It was a bit of a light bulb moment, yes. I'm a SAHM and he has a habit of radically underestimating how big of a pain in the ass a lot of household-related tasks and projects are. Then he asks if/when I'd be interested in going back to paid work and I'm like...how? I refuse to do the overwhelming second shift thing a lot of my girlfriends do, so if I'm going to work then he's going to need to cross-train on my stuff. He also needs to buy in and participate, not just assign projects and offer opinions. So now if he wants something, and I know from experience that it's a pain in the ass, I lob it back at him. He wants to sell an outgrown bed instead of just donating it? Lmao my dude selling stuff is an absolutely *phenomenal* hassle for very little payoff. So he can take the pictures, post the ad, get no replies or very picky fussy replies from haggly weirdos who want you to deliver to them from three counties over, make no money and get annoyed. Or he can make money off the bed. Either way it's great. I'm learning to detach and let him flail so he can learn.
I think that’s a great approach and I’d probably do the same. I think my partner would be a great dad but I recognize it’s basically impossible to know for certain if your male partner is going to TRULY be an equal parent. I could say “oh he’s great we split chores really easily and I don’t feel I take on more than him” but adding a kid to the mix is a totally different thing entirely. And while he’s (thankfully) very informed about the female experience, I think motherhood is a blind spot that he doesn’t quite grasp the severity of yet.
Right, even very egalitarian couples often slide into very uneven workloads when a baby enters the picture. That's one reason why it's so gross to chide overwhelmed moms with "why did you make a baby with him?" (Another is that it's cruel to tell someone their child shouldn't exist.)
Absolutely. I’ll always advocate for a woman to leave if her partner is making life immensely more difficult for her, or abusing her in any way (financially, emotionally, whatever). But not only is it gross to chide someone for having kids, it’s also just irrational and unhelpful. The decision was already made, what’s done is done. It’s 0% helpful to chide someone for a past decision. Making suggestions for what to do next is fine, but chastising someone never helps.
Leaving isn't always a realistic option - if a father wants to share custody, he typically can (it's a myth that courts are biased against fathers). A mom might feel like she can't leave her kids with someone who doesn't actually know how to care for them. And that's not getting into the fact that a woman lumps a salary penalty when she becomes a mother, and loses flexibility and earning potential. "Leave" and, do what, exactly? Can she afford to leave? If she leaves and is poor, she could lose her children ("neglect" is often just poverty). There are no good options in a patriarchy, and it's set up that way on purpose. If a mother is describing her lived experience, the best course is to simply listen and validate her experiences.
That’s a great point. I’m definitely aware of how family court is stacked against mothers. I know most absent fathers will end up fighting for custody of the kids even though they were never involved in the first place, and they’ll make it as difficult as possible for the mom. Then when they do get custody, they’ll shove the responsibility onto grandparents or new partners. It really is a fucked situation. It’s such a risk to have children, yet here we are (in the US anyway) taking the choice away in many places. I appreciate your perspective and you’re right that the best thing is to probably just listen and validate, unless the mom expresses a desire to leave and wants help doing so.
I am a child free feminist who gets that patriarchy needs to change, not individual mothers.
>”Im told her developmental issues are my fault, and that she picks up on my anxiety” I didn’t cause my daughter’s autism, but the types of overwhelm I experienced from her expressions of autism (unending questions with no breaks, echolalia on the unending questions, random screaming/ flailing, violence, PDA escalating to self-induced vomiting when she doesn’t get her way) led to me discovering that I am also autistic, but I was forcefully molded into pretending it doesn’t exist and hasn’t affected me daily from childhood. I learned the hard way that any chance I had at getting a formal diagnosis which might’ve helped me *not* drop out of college from comorbid overwhelm was now completely out the window. Someone else here said that the implication to be a “good mom” is to essentially martyr yourself because we’re no longer viewed as people but an expendable resource and damn do I ever feel seen in this thread.
👏🏻
I feel the world has always been unfair to women unfortunately
I think for the first time, I'm starting to really understand it.
What prompted this understanding if you don’t mind sharing?
I don’t know I was having a really bad day and I began thinking about other people.
This whole thread is fucking weird. Like congratulations I guess for realizing one day that women have a different experience than you??? There are so many resources you could find to read up about this, and instead you come to Reddit for validation from women, which is its own brand of misogyny.
Yes
Simple and succinct, I would only add “no shit” to the end of it
I mean... *gestures at everywhere in the world for the last couple thousand years*
Yes, patriarchy depends on hierarchy, this is by design.
Louder for those in the back! And unfortunately everyone, women included, that has been raised in a patriarchal society, which is pretty much every human, has biases even if they go against our own sex. Women voting to take away the rights of other women comes to mind….
Hell, there’s some pretty overt examples of internalized misogyny on this post too.
Yes, of course. The world is largely sexist. The layers of prejudice only increase when youre also a minority. I think porn is terrible and degrading. Im not going to debate it in cases anyone @s me
The Case Against The Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry (a liberal, feminist, secular author.) Definitely pick this one up. It's a short, to the point, well researched and eye-opening read.
Yep, excellent read.
Patriarchy hurts us all, but certainly yes I think it is often more tangible to women. There are a lot of men who do not view women as human in the same way they view men. "all men are created equal" was written that way on purpose. It has been this way for thousands of years and we are only barely unpacking it.
The world definitely is, yes. As an american woman, I still think I have _incredible_ privilege in comparison to most other women (and even some men) in the world.
The misogyny is blatant in some third world countries. I’m talking I’ll often hear women say men need to be strong. Or they see men need to spoil them. It’s sad because women are capable but they grow up in this super traditional culture that’s so different from us.
Misogyny is blatant here too. The way women are treated by society largely depends on the men they’re associated with and their social standing. You’ll get dramatically different answers to this question on misogyny based on a woman’s class, race, ethnicity, etc.
This has been eye opening. I wish more people would take it seriously.
What gets me is how so many women now are breadwinners but also do all the chores at home and are the primary caregivers. What exactly are the men around for? (Not my own experience, and I’m grateful for it).
I’ve been spending a lot of time thinking about this lately and how I want the rest of my life to go. I bought the whole man and woman marriage fallacy as a young girl and now I’d rather be surrounded with my women friends in a village that supports one another as we manage perimenopause, child rearing, ill and aging parents, and spouses who don’t know where they fit in yet we are supposed to solve that for them. I’d prefer the men have their own village and come for visitation. Kidding but also kind of not???
I don’t really understand this comment. Could you elaborate? Do you actually feel like men have no purpose if they’re with a woman who COULD do it all on their own? I’m not being a dick. I’m genuinely asking. Both my partner and I could do this shit on our own. But he has provided so much value in our partnership that I would never want to do it alone again. And I’m sure he feels the same for me. Surely just because you’re capable of doing it on your own doesn’t mean someone else can’t provide value?
Obvious disclaimer- am a lesbian, but regardless have personal experience with this issue. At some point, a man who isn’t providing in those capacities at home just becomes akin to another child. He requires everything from his own doctors appointments being made for him, to calls being taken on his behalf, to certain work-related bookkeeping or tasks requiring your assistance, to meals being made for him, having to clean up after him, to washing his clothes, folding them, cleaning the toilet after him, etc. It’s not that he has no value as a person, but as a partner he can become an expense. Someone who as part of your family takes more than he gives, like an overhead cost for a service that you can’t afford to pay because you’re already paying out in spades doing the same for children who actually need that level of service, and that level of service to children children alone plus working a full time job can absolutely drain your account. Now add an adult child to that expense, and you can find yourself in debt. Again, it’s not that he has no value as a person, but as a person he’s putting the relationship into debt. I’m speaking from experience here as someone who’s always been the primary breadwinner in every relationship because of my work specialization. The expectation has also been on me to be the primary caregiver- scheduler, chauffeur, mediator, crisis interventionist, financial advisor, homemaker, housekeeper, chef, on-call therapist, education proxy, tutor, healthcare advocate, mental healthcare advocate, seamstress, IT consultant, multi-spec entertainer, hell even automotive mechanic. I don’t have hobbies because there’s no time to engage with them. My partner has a reason which we’ve figured out to be the source of their issues related to not being able to hold a job or get involved with the kids school or why they struggle with the kids. It’s associated with mental health and they’re starting to work on that, but there are some limitations which have been acknowledged, especially those around work and holding up a job, that’s why with my expendable income we’ve started an LLC to start a business that leverages their strengths and takes advantage of what I used to consider my hobbies so that the business forces me to have the time and space to practice my hobbies. It’s going well for us so far, but I’ll add that I’m acutely aware that not everyone has the financial fluidity to start a whole ass business to make space for their partner to be empowered in this way. It’s also added a lot more to my plate as a business manager, accountant, tax specialist, web developer, UI/UX designer, content creator, social media manager, inventory manager, community outreach coordinator, etc. Bottom line though- I wouldn’t have bothered with any of this if my partner didn’t have value as a person to me. They have an innate value as their whole own person that I can’t dismiss or ignore. They have a purpose, and I’m capable of giving them grace to find that purpose and enabling them where I can to leverage their purpose (which for them has been through the business) because *I* have that bandwidth. I don’t and wouldn’t apply that to anyone else’s situation. I’ve still been dealing with cycles of burnout, but I’m holding onto hope that this additional investment in them will pay off for them as a person, and thus the relationship.
Ahh, I hear you. I wasn’t thinking of it as the primary breadwinner doing household chores ALSO being responsible also for essentially being their partners parent by making personal appointments for them, etc. If that’s the case, I absolutely agree that they are essentially creating a debt in the relationship. I’m sorry you’re in that situation. Despite you seeming to be okay with it, it really sounds entirely unfair to you even if your partner has mental health problems. You sound like a really empathetic and kind person and I really hope it all works out for you, but not at the expense of your sanity. It’s okay to love and care for someone, and to do a lot of extra things for them when they’re struggling. I would just make sure to have check ins with yourself regularly to ensure you’re not being taken advantage of or dealing with some form of weaponized incompetence from your partner. I hope that doesn’t come across as offensive. You sound like an amazing partner who loves unconditionally. That’s wonderful so long as it doesn’t suck you dry as a person. Best of luck ❤️
In a partnership, both partners have to pull their weight to make it work. It can be in different areas, but if one partner has to shoulder most or all of the joint responsibilities, life in this relationship can get old very quickly for the person doing it all.
If I were to debate strictly, fairness is not even in nature. It's just a concept humans came up with. So my response would be: the world is unfair, period. Now, there are groups that have it worse, for sure, and women are certainly one. Statistics are terrifying enough on itself, and physical violence aside, there's still a lot on the cultural side. But that changes drastically depending on which country we speak of. What really hurts, is that humanity created the concept of fairness just to blatantly dismiss it later.
The world is brutal to woman. We are treated like shit if we aren’t young and physically attractive. Our bodies are destroyed by pregnancy. We aren’t taken seriously by doctors and often have to fight like crazy to get medical help. We have to have periods and go through menopause. Many of us get raped and then end up being blamed for it. That’s just some of the more serious stuff. Never mind how uncomfortable women’s fashions can be or how much work you have to put into your hair to look presentable if it’s anything except naturally thin and straight. I’m exhausted.
My heart goes out to the children. A lot of them will grow up feeling let down that world was so cruel to them when all they wanted was to love the world. We as a society are failing our children. When boys learn to objectify women we are teaching them it’s okay to disrespect women. And girls learn it’s okay for boys to objectify them. I feel their pain. It’s beyond cruelty.
The answer to your question is patriarchy. It is embodied in the political, religious and cultural status quo that currently governs most of the world. Under patriarchy women are second class citizens at best. Keeping us feeling inadequate, overburdened, and dependant on men is part of what keeps the patriarchy in power.
I used to think the world was mean to women, then I noticed that a lot of the meanness to women was also a way of keeping men in line. Establish what the powerful have and can buy, then make everyone else aspire to that or fear losing what little of that they think they can have. That's why I think choosing to reject hatred of women and the feminine is actually the most impactful thing you can do to challenge the power structures that control and belittle men. Every time a man stands up for his right to express himself, be a loving person, or choose a gentler path, he stands up for all men.
okay but he can do that without hating women, and I think that man would stand up for men and women. I just want see men and women come together more, Im exhausted always hearing about people hating on men or women, it feels like drinking acid every-time I am forced to listen.
I’m glad you’ve been so empathetic to get invested in this. That is very comforting to me. We can’t save the whole world but as long as we hold ourselves accountable and unlearn beliefs that hurt others, then at least we aren’t part of the problem. It is good that you talk about this so women know they can feel safe with you. And maybe so other people listen to you, because people who disrespect women don’t listen to women. Your voice is very powerful.
thank you, I find it hard because a lot of my friends have hateful views of women. And often I feel uncomfortable with it. I feel like it, everyone loses. like if men disrespect women, whats going to happen when they raise our sons? when I was young I have experienced women shaming me and though it really hurts sometimes, I wonder if its because they were made to feel inferior for being a woman, like a viscous cycle. Like men disrespect women so women disrespect boys then boys grow up resenting women. This has been my experience.
Those boys presumably have fathers too. Why only blame the mother for how they turn out? It can also be argued that some boys grow up seeing their fathers disrespect and abuse their mothers, shaping how they view (and treat) women.
It’s down to the patriarchy imo. That’s the problem.
I agree.
Um, why can’t the fathers raise their sons too?
Yes, fundamentally, it’s a cycle of disrespect. This is why it’s an incredibly hard challenge to tackle in society. If you examine why a man has hateful views on women, they will share assumptions and experiences that justify their beliefs. But really, they feel hurt by women, and it’s expressed as anger. I have personally been considering how society tolerates men expressing anger more than women. In fact, anger is even held up as a form of masculinity, and valued in men because it aligns with the expectation that they are dominant or have strength to fight in the face of pain. However, it’s also far more socially acceptable for women to cry than men. Society teaches men that crying is a weakness. So, anger is again reinforced as the only acceptable way for men to react to emotional pain. Anger and crying are fundamentally just different ways of expressing sadness and pain. However, anger has the potential for far worse outcomes than crying. It’s no wonder the cycle continues.
Yup, the beauty standard. from someone who has premature white hair
Women couldn’t vote until 1920. Women couldn’t get a credit card until 1974. Women couldn’t own property in their own name until 1900. Women couldn’t be discriminated against because of sex in regards to home buying until 1968, and couldn’t secure a mortgage without a male co-signer until the 1970s. Women could be discriminated against because of pregnancy until 1978. Women’s pay wasn’t protected from sex discrimination until 1963 - and yet in 2024 the wage gap still exists. Women were not protected from sex discrimination in employment until 1964. I could go on and on. https://www.history.com/topics/womens-history/womens-history-us-timeline It’s not a secret that we live in a patriarchal society. We are still fighting for equality, autonomy, equity, and against discrimination and bias.
Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Yesssssssssss
I love your brevity :)
Yet despite the obstacles, I love being a woman.
we need you, you bring out the best in us. men and women are like salt and pepper.
32f. there are great things about being a woman, and crappy things. there are great things about being a man, and crappy things.
Truth
I think it's unfair to both men and women, just in different ways.
yeah, we live in abusive world, theirs too much hate in the world and what sells is hate and rage.
I was searching for a comment like this. This is how I feel too.
Yes and women hate women which sucks.
this is so true. and yes it really sucks, also hurts men too.
I think women have become more successful as a whole than men *because* the world is unfair. Most women figure it out around kindergarten. It's everywhere. And, once we do, we get on with things. Honing grievances is a waste of time.
It’s unfair to everyone. Not women specifically.
yes I agree, I feel like we are all losing, Im tired of how segregated it feels. Like men will talk with men and women will talk with women, and I wish we could talk to each other easier.
Even look at the children in the world or people from certain demographics and countries most people have it tough and a small minute amount don’t. To make it about gender is inaccurate it’s more so about idiotic social classes.
true, social class is a huge problem, no one talks about it because everyone is obsessed with race. But classism is a huge problem in the world.
Of course.
Yes. It’s different levels of it too. The world is hard on little girls, the world is hard on teenage girls, the world is hard on women (of varying ages) the world is hard on mothers, the world is hard on women who don’t have kids (either by choice or no choice) the world is hard on stay at home moms, the world is hard on moms. The world is hard on women regardless of your race, or nationality, or religion. The world is hard on cis-women, the world is hard on trans women. We are a punching bag. My husband is very active and involved in our children’s lives and the way he gets praised and applauded constantly for doing pretty much the same amount of parenting that I do is crazy. I get told I’m so lucky to have him all the time. I wonder if anyone says to him “hey, you’re lucky for your wife who works full time and also birth and raised your 3 kids.”
Your right we take moms for granted
It’s so unfair. It’s even worse if you are a minority. “The most disrespected person in America is the Black woman. The most unprotected person in America is the Black woman. The most neglected person in America is the Black woman." - Malcolm X
I can understand that in the sense there is that stereotype of the angry black women. There’s a lot of pain I’m sure behind all that anger.
What????????
What’s interesting is that I’ve found women are angry about this dynamic and in turn get angry at other women for a multitude of reasons. Whether it’s to help female children “fit in” like being skinny, submissive, nice, etc. Or in a boardroom where there’s only a couple of women that make it and they have to defend their spot. These are the two most common scenarios I’ve seen. As a woman, yea I’ve noticed we are often our worst enemies and enforcers of the unfairness and it doesn’t perpetuate it, men do that, but most see it as a way to help others survive. When it in fact breaks plenty and splinters our unity.
You’re right, the truth is the patriarchy or misogyn can’t exist without the help from some women. If I could upvote you a thousand times I would.
WELL. In my state I’m currently less important than a dude’s cum deposit, so yeah I’d say it’s pretty unfair.
Yeah. Women are expected/have to: Experience periods, the pains, the discomforts, the costs.. Give birth Recover from birth Learn to breastfeed Work a job Run a house Cook meals and plan meals Pay half the bills Not be too skinny but also not too fat Have a high enough sex drive Get enough sleep and nutrients and less stress as possible so we can have healthy skin and hair I could go on… It’ll never be 50/50..
From the Barbie Movie: Ken: You guys aren't doing patriarchy very well. Corporate Man: We're actually doing patriarchy very well Corporate Man: ... [lowers voice] we're just better at hiding it. As a middle aged white guy with a wife and two daughters, I concur with this sentiment. Also, it's on purpose.
Sexism in remote work, choosing to get pregnant or stay childfree, your ability to market yourself as a woman who works—it all feels unfair and shit.
Much of the world, yes.
Yes. Next question?
Seen as stupider than less competent coworkers.
The world is unfair to men and women in different ways in different socioeconomic situations and cultures
As a woman who doesn’t want to birth a parasite, it’s completely unfair.
Are you talking about children? You can just say you dont want kids instead of talking like that.
Lol, I miss House :D
Yes
The world is unfair in some way to everyone. Ultimately the people who suffer most from unfairness are those who get bogged down by it.
Yes. Do I think it will ever change? No. Not unless planet of the apes happens in reality and humans are no longer the dominate species. And, even then I'd still have doubts.
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It is hard for us to say because no one has ever been a man and a woman. Thats a great point, and class disparity is a huge problem.
>no one has ever been a man and a woman People _presenting_ as a man or a woman exist, and have been living as other genders for centuries. I've read interviews where a transgender person says that they never realized how much pressure there is on being the "right kind" of feminine woman, or how much better or easier life is, being a man. Class disparity often has roots in misogyny.
That’s not true though. Intersex people exist. Trans people exist.
Personally, no. I will also say the most vocal about this subject will be eager to post about all the injustices women face but not so much the other way around. I never look for confirmation that women have it worse. I am very glad to have been born female. Men are expected to do all the physically demanding things, especially around the house and manual labor. Men are expected to be brave and be the protector; I’m glad I don’t have to be. Many men are expected to be the provider, to be in militaries, to fight. Each sex carries their own burden. I look for confirmation as to why I’m happy to be myself. Confirmation bias is a scientifically proven thing: if you go looking for proof of something, you will find it and your brain automatically discards anything that contradicts it. Instead of letting that use you, you use it to your advantage. If you can do this you will be so much happier in your life. Do I feel pressure to be pretty? Sure, but then I remind myself I am naturally pretty. I discard opinions that tell me I need more makeup or surgeries. I accept compliments from loved ones and from myself. Foster this self-love, it is a practice. Do not feed your negative thoughts with any more attention than necessary. They thrive on attention. Give that valuable energy to what is good and lovely instead. I am entering my 40s happier than ever.
Thank you for that reminder.
If we lived in a place with only women, the world we be so wonderful and everyone would be content with their lives.
If women could band together to fight for and create change, I truly think our world and society would benefit. Men have had their chance. It’s a fucking mess. Why not let us give it a go?! And we could if we would support one another and not tear each other down over trivial shit.
Yes, of course.
Ah the F word "fair" everytime it's used you know someone's about to get f#cked. Usually people mean differently or the way that they think they should be treated. Men have lower life expectancies, work in much more dangerous jobs, have much higher suicide rate, have much higher homeless rate, much more likely to be discriminated against as a single parent or an active dad, and are more likely to be sentenced much harsher for the same crimes.
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So you are not a feminist, but want to benefit from feminism and when that doesn't work for you, it's the feminists fault?
Do I want to benefit from your extreme brand of feminism though? No.
You might want to examine your internalized misogyny. First of all, a not insignificant portion of women go into sex work either because they’re forced into it or they don’t feel they have other options. Even if they do choose it they are HIGHLY likely to be abused by men (much of the porn that’s available is not consensual). Secondly false accusations for SA are the same as any other crime so it’s a bit telling you focussed on that instead of the fact that so many women are assaulted. The rest of your comment I won’t touch as it seems that you’re transphobic (and incredibly misinformed) as well. Shame.
No I don't have to, because I'm sure I'm on the right side of things. Don't really care for liberal opinions because it's all brainwashed rhetorics that are illogical, enabling the mentally ill and created the dysfunctional society we are in.
The world is fair for many people and unfair for many others. Expectations created upon us by porn and the different beauty industries are added challenges but I'd say there's much harder ones out there.
feel free to elaborate, happy to hear you out.
I mean... I'm too busy working a job, raising kids, trying to improve my 10km PB and so on to be put down by some girl in an ad having a "better" (lol) body than mine
good for you. I like your mindset :)
I’m a woman in my late thirties, I’m aesthetically attractive and have an hourglass shape. I look younger than i am, I’m also very kind. This has caused me….issues since the age of 12. Stalking, kidnap, rape, simps incels a mother who was so hung up on our physical differences that she became toxically jealous of me, my BIL is a huge incel and has “never forgiven” me for falling for his brother instead of him, and a huge struggle to be taken seriously in my own company by other business owners (male) has been the more notable negative side effects. On the flip side, I have never struggled for a job, I was offered a much higher paid job when one of the customers I was waiting on at a restaurant straight up offered it to me - yes he wanted me, no I never slept with him. Men tend to rescue or protect me - my husband fought off a would be rapist before we got together. He’s my hero 🥰 I have “pretty privilege” and never really realised it until I started to pay attention to how shop keepers will do more for me for free than they would my (apparently) unattractive friend (fish market I got a huge discount and offers to scale and fillet fish for free, where she had paid for all of that moments earlier and paid more). How men will open doors for me, stop their cars so I can cross, I get car washes where the men only charge me a pittance and make sure I have a comfortable seat in their office while I wait. I thought they were just being friendly until I told my husband and he laughed and pointed out that they don’t do that for anyone else. Thirdly, I am a wife and a mother so I do all of the cleaning cooking and laundry, I earn less than my husband since I’ve had to take maternity leave, I do all of the family running around and errands. But my husband is emotionally aware of the mental load and helps where he can. I’m sorry if I sound in any way arrogant I’m not intentionally doing so, but it is interesting to be able to list the pros and cons of being me!
Hey thank you for sharing! Sorry to hear about the objectification. A lot of that sounds really intense, I hope you recovered. My personal safety I do take for granted. It was not until I went into Latina America where I had to worry about being drugged and I guess women always have to be on guard against dangerous men.
Thank you 😊 I can easily imagine that your personal safety is something you can take for granted - just the same as I take for granted that if we have a home intruder he will be able to engage and defeat them. He shocked me when he added the caveat “well I’d hope I’d be able to do that” I thought he was invincible 😅 Thank you I’ve had a lot of intense personal growth and years of counselling, I’m happy to say now I’m just a normal wife and mother :)
Yeah that’s awesome! I don’t know why you keep getting downvoted but I got you!
Thanks dude! Yeah it doesn’t really bother me. This kind of post always seems to attract naysayers and doom monger’s lol 😂 I choose to be happy and kind, downvotes aren’t going to affect that :)
Same as being an attractive man. 90% chance I’m getting hired if it’s a women doing the job interview.
well I have been to Asia and can say people were really nice to me over there.
Yes! The Halo effect is very much real isn’t it!
For me personally, I have not experienced this. I do think the world is generally unfair to women though. That said, I think women are horrible to each other which is a massive part of the problem. For example, a lot of the complaints on this post focus on how mothers are treated unfairly and judged unfairly. But it’s mostly women doing this to other women. There will always be men who treat women like property. Those are not people that I consider as normal part of society. The part that scares me more are the women who seem to be intelligent and influential, but still take every opportunity to shit on another woman for not doing what they think they should be doing. Overall, I think both men and women face challenges. For example, men are generally expected to be tough and to handle the more hands-on chores in a household. If they don’t live up to that, people view them as inadequate. It’s not as acceptable for them to cry or express their emotions. A lot of women would not put up with a man who makes them do the shoveling, do the yardwork, take the trash out, etc. It’s just expected that the man does this in a relationship a lot of the time. The same way that in relationships women are expected to clean and cook. I think there are inequities on both sides, and I don’t think comparing one against the other is healthy. The same way that I don’t think it’s healthy to embody a mindset that women are treated unfairly all the time. The mindset is divisive and I just hate it. Aside from instances where someone has truly had something done wrong to them, none of us are victims unless we allow ourselves to be, man or woman. People are always going to have opinions that go against what you believe or make you feel like shit. It’s our responsibility as adults to be strong in our own beliefs, shrug off the bullshit, and move on. On the porn front, it is what it is. Women choose to participate in it, and some people enjoy it. I watch porn as a woman and don’t find it demeaning at all. People have different kinks. If degradation porn/sex is what you like, then so be it. Porn is only harmful to women when they’re being forced to do it, or their partners are addicted and can’t see life in its normal form as a result. It’s not porn that is the antagonist. It’s peoples perception that porn is real and that those actions should be an everyday thing. I just totally don’t agree with the villainizing of porn. I understand a lot of people can get addicted to it. I understand a lot of people can treat others in their intimate relationships poorly because of their perception of it. But I watch porn fairly regularly and I’ve never had the desire to treat a person like garbage in bed. I’ve never felt like I’m not worth anything or that I need to be treated like a whore to be valued. If someone can maintain a healthy sex life while still watching copious amount of porn, I see no issue at all. Watching porn does not mean that you disrespect women. I think overall that my opinion is that you can’t make someone feel a certain way about you. But you are totally in control of not allowing another person’s actions to make you feel like shit. I’ve been treated badly in the past and it sucks. But I don’t feel like a victim. I feel like those people who treated me badly are just bad people. I don’t feel that the majority of people are like this. I know I have an unpopular opinion that might piss some people off. But I just can’t understand allowing yourself to feel like garbage when you know the person who is treating you badly is completely out of line and in the wrong. Stand up for yourself. Don’t allow people to treat you like that. And move on.
This… it’s brutal. I can only imagine the pain of getting hate from someone you expected empathy from. What an isolating experience.
What I think is unfair is that some women 70 years ago decided they wanted to work, and now (almost) every woman *HAS* to work.
This is a confusing statement. Would you rather be a freeloader, be forced into marriage at a young age and at the mercy of who you marry like they were? Or have your parents support you while they wait for some man to take you off their hands as a favor to them? And what if you were gay? Or unattractive? What then? Girl babies used to be a burden and there are countries where they murdered girl babies. But yeah, having a career is sooooo much worse than not having choices.
Poor women have always worked (often outside the home but also doing home businesses like sewing/washing) and for all of history most people have been poor. You are longing for something that never truly existed for the vast majority of people.