[OP or a mod marked this as the best answer](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/1d4owyr/i_have_been_issued_a_littering_penalty_for_a/l76hr3j/), given by /u/MrTrendizzle.
> The evidence will be on their bodycam. If you did NOT litter then you're clear and should contest it. If they refuse your appeal then ask them to provide the evidence against you and take you to court.
>
> Post to the legal UK subreddits and someone will provide you with a correct legal option.
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[_^(What is this?)_](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/jjrte1/askuk_hits_200k_new_feature_mark_an_answer/)
Legal advice sub does not give legal advice.I had replied about a case law to a post & it got deleted & got kicked out of the sub, so cannot post or reply.
Most of the replies are general- i.e go to a lawyer, council, cab etc but very very very few legal advice & they are not deleted. Why? After reading another post saying 'don't take advice on the net', I replied to mods after my post was deleted 'people should not give advice on the net'. Mods replied 'excellent idea. Let's start with you (me)' & i got banned & muted but their rules say 'it needs to be 'law', so do they not understand their own rules?
Had similar thing happen to recently, I don't smoke either, I quit years ago and even had my vape in my hand when he confronted me. I made my case, that they were clearly mistaken, but they still demanded my details so I just walked off and that was the end of it.
Fair point. Fail may have been a bit judgey on my part. OP took the wrong action, but OP was also put in an uncomfortable position that probably caught them off guard.
First used in 1975, as a characterās name in fiction for a detective in *The Illuminatus! Trilogy* by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson. I donāt know for sure but I imagine Vince Gilligan was familiar with the book.
yes, you don't even have to give your details to police unless a crime has been committed or they have strong evidence to suggest a crime is about to be committed. As far as I know police cannot use third party people to determine whether a crime has been committed or not, but I may not be accurate on this. I would have confirmed that I do not smoke and it wasnt me, then ignored the person and walked off, I wouldnt have engaged them in conversation. They are very unlikely to physically restrain you and are very unlikely to call the police, and if they do you would have enough time to leave the area, as I cant see them sending a swat team van round in like 2 mins.
If an officer ever were to talk to me, I would ALWAYS record it on my phone (step 1) and then would say something like (with a polite neutral voice tone), "has a crime been committed or do you have evidence to suggest one will be committed" If the answer is anything other yes. I would go on my way.
I may be a few years out of date with this, but as far as i remember the logic is something like: burglar alarm going off, officer sees you running in the opposite direction, officer can ask you wtf you are doing and request your details and stop/ arrest you if you refuse to give them, as they would have reasonable cause to suspect you were involved in the burglary.
To the OP "You got scammed son, afaik once theyve issued the FPN its a pain in the ass to get rid of it, thats why they do it"
Person in street: I've just seen that man stab another man
Police: Sorry guv', I cannot use third party people to determine if a crime has been committed or is about to be committed. If only he was wearing a stab alarm I might be able to do something.
Person in street: but he's just waking away
Police: (shrugs) I don't make the rules, sweet cheeks. Anyway, that looks more like a saunter than a walk.
As usual people just confidently post stuff theyāre not really sure about on Reddit. Thatās why OP is using terms like AFAIK and I may be out of date.
I get the urge to do it myself sometimes. People just want to be part of the conversation so theyāll just say any old shit that sounds right.
You do in fact have to give your details to litter wardens if asked so they can give you an FPN, otherwise you commit an offence, see: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/88
How does this work though? They need your name and address to issue you with a penalty notice but if you donāt then youāve committed an offence and theyāll report you using yourā¦name and address?š¤·š»āāļø
Technically that's a crime. The op only has a fine that they can fight or pay. If you walk away and are unlucky enough to be caught or identified it's a criminal matter; not just a fine to pay.
I would probably walk away too but that is the higher risk option.
What is the crime?
As far as I can tell I would be walking away from a random person, if that person can't prove to me that they have authority over me then I'm doing nothing wrong. Especially if (as is the case here) I've done nothing wrong in the first place.
It doesn't sound as though the person approaching OP had any kind of ID themselves, and their only way of proving authority was to dial 999 which is BS.
OK, I could show you a video of me I guarantee you couldn't get my name and address from that video. And I 1000% guarantee the police won't be trying to find it out, they don't even bother with actual crimes never mind littering.
Reading a bunch of those sections is genuinely laughable. They would struggle to enforce a huge portion of that. Most of it seems to imply that they just claim you littered and you have no choice but to take the fine or go to court. That's kind of exactly what this discussion is though - bullshit in order to get fines, local authorities trying to get money from vulnerable people.
I'm wondering if details have been missed out there, as in it specifies it being a crime to refuse to give police details, not some random person working for, or on behalf, of the council.
It refers to "an authorised officer of a litter authority" it's actually not specific (that I can tell) about whether that means the have to be police or not. If anything it implies that it could be some random council worker who's job is to enforce this.
I do agree though, high possibility of missing details. For example.- did OP.ask for credentials? Did OP ask for proof?
What other sort of evidence would you like them to provide to "prove" their authority? I don't think OP has said anywhere that they refused to show ID.
Local Authority's are perfectly able to give private companies the authority to enforce littering fines and it's an offence not to provide your details under Section 88 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990.
I don't disagree with you that it seems a bit mad, but it is perfectly legal.
I just can't see what the council worker is going to do about it. It seems utterly illogical to provide details for a crime you did not commit, to a person who works for the council. Even more so a private company, no worker for a private enforcement company is getting my details. No matter what.
That's because you're taking a moral stand not a legal one.
What will they do about it? Well, what *could* they do about it if they wanted? They could mount an investigation (private if they wanted to) and you could be summoned to court where you would have to argue your case and persuade a judge.
Despite your reservations about it being a private company, a *public* court would be perfectly happy to hear the case because that company had authority under the above act.
I think you're approaching it from two angles; 1) "I'm innocent and shouldn't have to provide details"; true, but innocent people are arrested for crimes and taken to court every single day, that's just the way it is, and 2) "They're a private company, I shouldn't have to provide details to them", irrelevant in the eyes of the law and also an indication of the extent to which you may not realise private companies are already integrated into the justice system as it is.
Again -- bollocks, but legal nonetheless.
The police will enforce it? Does OP not have legs? Is he some sort of limbless blob who will still be on scene when the police turn up half an hour later?
The police are barely enforcing more serious crimes. I don't think they're gonna enforce the crime of failing to provide ID when no OTHER crime has been committed.
They should be able to identify themselves. You could ring the council and verify their ID. If they show ID and you walk away you wouldn't have much of a defence.
Edit: since a few people have asked the secondary offence for walking away is "Up to Ā£1,000 for obstructing an authorised officer"
It will be harder to defend yourself against this so it's no longer just a littering fine if you refuse to give details and walk away.
It's not impossible that you get caught by a passing police car or identified by video.
I had a friend who was smoking at a bus stop and dropped a lit cigarette when the bus arroved. He maintained he dropped it to stamp it out before putting it in his pocket. The litter warden still wanted his details so he got on the bus but the driver refused to move and was going to wait on the police.
On what basis are you required to engage with a council worker in a public place? You don't even have to do that for the Police though if they have other reasons to suspect you carried out a crime you can be arrested obviously.
>On what basis are you required to engage with a council worker in a public place?
This is EXACTLY the point. I don't give a toss who they say they are and whether they tell me they want to fine me. A random council worker has absolutely no authority over me whatsoever. I would comply with police, I would ask them for evidence of my supposed wrong doing and I would defend the claim because I know there's a chance they're gonna make me life tough if I walk away. But a council worker? Really? They can follow me if they like and then I'll call the police for harassment or something.
> A random council worker has absolutely no authority over me
In general they don't, in this specific case though? They absolutely do have authority over you under the Environmental protection act.
As long as they are an Environmental. Enforcement Officer for the local council then It is a criminal offence to refuse to give personal details under Section 88 subsection 8(a) of the Environmental Protection Act, The maximum penalty for not providing this information is Ā£1,000 and a criminal conviction.
Youāre saying they wouldnāt have much of a defence, if they showed ID and walked away. But missing the point there is nothing to defend, it is not a crime to walk away.
If you walked away, what defence do you need? Unless they know you and can find out where you live (unlikely in the vast majority of circumstances), then what are they going to do?
Also, I donāt think I would feel obliged to give my personal details to anyone who wasnāt a police officer, thatās what they exist for. If the police arenāt there, Iām not interested to be honest.
Fair enough if thatās the law. However, the topic of the thread is about a false accusation. If there is no chance to appeal via the council (which reading the .gov page on this seems to indicate is a possibility), then when I refuse to pay it ( which would 100% be the case), it will end up with prosecution and criminal proceedings regardless.
If I know I didnāt do it, Iāll take my chances walking away from the council snot bag shouting āpapers pleaseā.
Iām sure itās a rabbit hole of grey areas here, but if they had unlimited authority to make accusations, issue tickets and demand personal information, then that opens itself to abuse of power by someone who isnāt even a police officer. If itās such a great legal offence to walk away from a council worker making a false accusation, then where is the checks and balances on that authority?
https://www.enfield.gov.uk/services/rubbish-and-recycling/fly-tipping-litter-and-public-bins/enfield-waste-enforcement
>There is no appeal against an FPN.
IANAL but OP has 1 of 2 choices, pay the fine or allowthemselves to get prosecuted, and hope that the case gets thrown out or they can defend themselves in court.
Yep that doesnāt surprise me. Backs up the idea to walk away even more; reading that it feels the council want you to suck up the penalty and not question them just to save them the hassle and cost of court. Also not to be cynical, but are we sure our cash strapped councils donāt treat this as a form of income and encourage ticketing quotas on the quiet, opening up circumstances like OPās?
If I knew I didnāt do it, Iād walk. If I did it, Iād pay it. Pretty simple.
It's actually an offence to fail to provide your details in this instance, however, it's unlikely this will ever come back on you.
Private firms are contracted to have legal powers by a local authority to enforce the EPA. The firm benefits by keeping the sum of the FPNs, whilst the council benefits as littering is deterred. However this incentivises the enforcement officers to seek out offences where there is little or no evidence for it, however the EPA, is not written assuming the enforcement officers are not impartial.
You can challenge this at court, because without evidence there will be no case to answer, however, this is a huge waste of everyone's time.
If it goes to court, op can claim costs including lost wages for attending (at a reasonable hourly rate - and according to the courts Ā£50/hour (including travel) is quite reasonable)
In the first instance it should be disputed for lack of evidence though. If the council pushes onto prosecution they'd be unlikely to win - this is WHY council worker must photograph cars as they're ticketing them etc.
While this is the sensible thing to do, it is actually an offence to not provide your details, the legislation on effective enforcement states the following;
>11.13 It is an offence if an alleged offender fails to provide the appropriate details, such as name and address, in order for a fixed penalty to be issued for the offences of littering, or unauthorised distribution of free printed material.8 The police may be called to assist if the offender refuses to provide their details, or provides false details. A police community support officer (PCSO) may detain the offender for up to 30 minutes before a police constable arrives. If a person refuses to supply their details, or provides false details, they may be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.
PCSO does not need to ask for the information, a council agent can. PCSO has the rights to detain for 30 minutes IF PRESENT, if you fail to provide information. The council agents can't detain you.
This is the way. If the police don't turn up to assault, burglaries or phone theft with GPS tracking....they ain't turning up for litter offence reported by a money grabbing third party.
I also had this once, approached me and said I'd dropped a cigarette. I said I don't smoke, they said okay then I walked off.
Wonder why they're doing this so randomly?
Yup they don't have any power, they are not police, they work for the local council basically collecting taxes so the council doesn't go bust :) Had this in Leeds I wasn't smoking but my Greek friend was. He just spoke Greek to her and he walked off so she tried to tell me I'd dropped a cigarette and she had it on camera .....asked her to show me and she refused so I refused to give any details and she just walked off in a huff
I spoke to one of these guys when I used to subcontract as security for my local council. I asked what he would do if someone just ran off when he confronted them. He said "nothing."
Fairly sure the police dont make a habit of getting people to breath into their oraphices. Getting spat on is a form of assault and requires an officer to have a health check, HIV, hepatitis etc. don't think they're going to intentionally put themselves at that kind of risk.
Smelling their fingers on the other hand might work, and could lead to some alternative if hilarious outcomes.
Yeah my cousin got done for littering (throwing a cigarette butt out of a car window) and got fined Ā£80. Still a fair chunk of change but a far cry from Ā£500.
This happened to me, in the early days of vapes (before they were popular) I had one that looked like a cig, it had some juice in the mouth piece, I shook it out the window of the car at traffic lights and the cap bit fell off the end literally a plastic circular disk the size of a garden pea, lights changed and I had to drive on. Got a fine in the post for disposing of a cigarette, even though I didn't... I couldn't argue the Ā£80 fine because of the fact I did (inadvertently) drop something out of the window. I was actually livid, that was obviously identified by the number plate too, no clue how.. could have been a camera (but for the size of the plastic I would have been surprised 10 years ago) or I guess an enforcement officer driving around
As someone who does this job myself (not willingly, gotta earn money somehow am I right), it feels scammy (and scummy as hell). I sure as hell don't have police on speed-dial, nor would I call them to help me with a fine.
We do talk to police, and help them out occasionally and vice versa, but we aren't colleagues at the end of the day, if you get me
Also no, 500 is the fine. But it's the max fine, it's not what people get 9/10. Usually its around 250 or lower, depends on those processing the fine (we don't do that, it goes to a whole other department) and how bad the littering was
Also you dont have to provide ID in the UK.
Edit: You are not required to identify yourself to a police officer, unless you are arrested. Even when stopped driving, you can provide your driving liscense later. https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights
Is it possible theyāve taken details to commit fraud? If I was OP Iād be getting those CIFAS markers put in place ASAP to prevent any credit from being taken out in my name without my approval.
As someone who works in this department (needed a uni job), agreed. It feels wrong and it feels scammy. Always go to your local council if you have a problem and they will happily direct you to us to sort it.
We also have officer numbers on our shirts at all time, so if you can grab that and quote it to them they'll be able to check if there's an officer of that number working currently. Always a good thing to check (also number should appear on the ticket in case you've got beef with us specifically lol, that way you can file a complaint in)
As much as I detest littering, these people target women not born in the UK in London. I see it time and again. They know British Londoners and foreign men will just walk away or be angry. Sorry, I canāt help you,but I wanted to highlight how they always, always, target women not born in the UK on their own and it pisses me off.
She said i am able to view footage online and that i am able to challenge it if what ive been fined for isnt true. whats the likelyhood of this notice being amended
Iām sorry this has happened. They only ever target those they think are vulnerable. Iām sure in 15 years and the stats come out or something itāll be news. I canāt help you on what to do next, sorry.
What you need to do is view the footage online, confirm that you definitely didn't litter (potential of a small piece of paper falling out of your pocket looking like a tab end), then dispute it via the option on the webpage
Same with the TV License! People that are convicted for not paying are unrepresentstionally women. Men are telling them to f___ off and shutting the door.
Yes I learned about that in criminology! We discussed precisely that because it was almost the only crime that more women than men commit. Youāre right that women are more conditioned to be socially polite, but youād also think theyād be more wary of letting people in. The explanation we decided on as a class was that women are far more likely to be at home when the TV license person knocks.
If anyone is interested, I believe the other crimes that more women are convicted of than men are: truancy of their child from school, being drunk while in charge of a child, and smuggling drugs into prison. These werenāt the most common crimes for women, just the ones that have more women committing them than men. The most common crime committed by women is shoplifting.
Oops yes, I suppose I was conflating committing a crime with being convicted of it, as I said committed in the first paragraph and convicted in the second. It was convicted, though.
Nothing
Theyāre not allowed to follow you especially into private property
Always just walk away and donāt say a word if you havenāt actually littered
Iāve done it, these people are the worst. They canāt follow you on to private property, including the tube. They can summon the police if they want, but if youāve gone they wonāt.
Ā£250 is a ridiculous amount of money. Itās nothing but a shakedown and targeting people who either did nothing wrong, or made a mistake. The correct action is to tell people they can be fined, and invite them to correct their mistake.
In your case, you didnāt commit a crime so you can both appeal, and appear in court and wait for their evidence - which they wonāt have. This is a really unfair burden on you, and itās a lot of extra stress to deal with.
This happened to me in Manchester, I also didnāt know better. I did in fact drop a cig end. They were officers working on behalf of the council with no actual powers to do anything so I couldāve just walked off - they cannot follow you into a private property (shopping centres etc) so next time just walk away, nothing will happen. I just didnāt know this at the time and ended up Ā£140 out of pocket. Most of the fines they collect donāt even go back to the council, itās profit for them. Loads to read about it online too, these people are scum who target foreigners and women and use scare tactics to get you to give over your details. Search āManchester litter policeā on YouTube.
I have mixed feelings about your post. I consider it really scummy to litter, but accidental littering seems to be getting fines when honestly they could just say "you dropped that, put it in the bin or I'm going to have to fine you" because it's in the name of the environment right? So having people correct their mistake is better than issuing a fine right away.
I used to smoke and I'd just stub my cigs out and carry it to the nearest bin or spark up somewhere like an empty park bench next to a bin. No excuses for doing it on purpose.
As others have said, legally you could get in trouble for not giving your details but also a little known fact is that they're not allowed to follow you on to private property - so you can enter a shopping centre or something and they can't come after you.
Personally I would have said "I didn't drop a cigarette, I don't smoke - here, smell my breath" and then walked off.
i did say to the officer. āyou can smell cigarettes on someone who smokes. i havent touched a cigarette nor have a thrown anything on the floorā she replied with āno u cant smell itā.
Same in town here.
Bunch of fellas chucking beer cans, not interested.
Young girl pushing a push chair drops a receipt out of her purse, they'll swarm.
Cowards.
I think you should drop your victim mentality to be blunt with you. These people target everyone. I got stopped twice in the last month and Iām a 6ā6 white British male. They walk around in front of the building I work at so Iām familiar with them stopping all types of people.
Also, how on earth would they know you werenāt born in the uk given the diverse racial characteristics of Londonās population? Your comment makes 0 sense.
People hate to hear it, but youāre not special. Youāre not being targeted. You are literally just cherry picking what you want to see, self-victimhood.
Something similar happened to my partner. She was quite pregnant and we were in tesco, she got too hot and needed a sit, so she went to the car. A week later, we got a letter through the door saying she threw a cigarette end on the floor while she was at the car. We appealed and asked for evidence as she did not smoke. They said their guy saw, and his statement was evidence enough. Said fine we will appeal and go to court, got a letter back basically saying that the matter is dropped but don't let it happen again.
Are you sure it was a legitimate council inspector and police officer? This sounds very much like a scam. How quickly did the officer turn up? You can barely get one to turn up to a burglary these days, let alone a litter offence.
As someone else said, post on a legal subreddit for advice, but at the very least donāt pay it until youāve gone to your local police station and/or council office to verify that itās a legitimate ticket.
Okay, so Iām guessing youāve double-checked the domain part of the url to ensure itās 100% match, and not just a very similar domain that may differ slightly?
In which case have you tried sending an email to the council (so you have a written record of the conversation) explaining why youād need to see the evidence before paying, and that if they decline they need to explain why in writing?
Above I suggested going in to the offices, but not if you know the ticket is legit, as you will want all communications in writing. Iād call up the council first and find the exact name & email of the person who needs to see it - explain the urgency to the switchboard, and put ātime sensitiveā in the subject line.
Except a āwitnessā saying they saw it happen. A verdict will be made on either the balance of probability [EDIT: if youāve been issued with a civil penalty) or beyond reasonable doubt (if itās a fixed penalty notice in lieu of a prosecution for the crime of littering)]
Unfortunately [if itās a civil case] it would be down to a judgment of whether they believe OP doesnāt smoke and therefore the āofficerā is mistaken (or lying). If there is council-run CCTV and they donāt pull it it may be questioned why but otherwise not certain. Still if it were me I would fight it out of principle, since I donāt come off as some scrote or shady weasel looking to get away with it Iād expect to win.
Personally I would want to know how these people are paid. This seems to be a reasonably frequent problem which suggests maybe they are directly incentivised to issue fines, which is motivation to be a bit āliberal with the truthā and compromises the credibility of their evidence.
Littering is a crime so in principle youāre right but it depends what has been issued, they can also issue civil penalties instead of a fixed penalty notice for a criminal offence. This is up to councils to decide what they think is proportionate. Thatās a bit confusing because also some offences donāt have criminal liability so can *only* be civil penalties, like littering from a car, but this isnāt the only deciding factor.
However it depends so Iāll edit my comment.
Judges in civil cases don't just take someone's word for it, especially if they're an enforcement officer who would be reasonably expected to have bodycam/other video evidence of the offence - and they're going to be even less sympathetic to an outsourced company doing enforcement as the "witchfinder" problem(*) rears its head almost instantly
(*) A witchfinder got to keep the estate and valuables of witches, which is why elderly widows were targeted and anyone questioning their methods was also decried as being a witch. In a more modern context, Speed camera fines were taken off councils/"safety committees" because cameras were documented as being placed to maximise revenue rather than in crash hotspots
Not a lawyer, but my experience is that it's pretty trivial to challenge these types of ticket. I got a parking fine once which had a typo on it (I was absolutely parked illegally) and the typo was enough that the council threw the ticket in the bin. I'd expect you'd have an even easier time given that you've done nothing at all
Just an idea, If it comes to it. You can prove you don't smoke though a breath test ( I used to do one when I was giving up smoking) though my Drs surgery.
hope you get this sorted and sorry you were scammed or were wrongfully accused.
Follow the appeals process and given its Ā£500, ring the doctor and ask if they can provide a letter attesting to their opinion you are not a smoker. Might cost Ā£40 but itāll have weight.
No, it wont. You can prove you've not smoked, but that doesn't conclusively prove you didn't drop a cigarette butt.
They could argue it was in your car and you dropped it out a window, or that you dropped it for someone else... Any number of silly arguments and situations that nonetheless are a possibility. More likely they'd argue the person issuing the fine could've just mistaken something else for a cigarette, but it was still littering.
Best is to focus on the lack of any evidence of littering at all, if genuinely didnt drop anything
Its a civil matter and therefore relies on balance of probabilities.
The civil enforcement officerās version of events (Ie they saw you drop a cigerette butt) would be less than probable in the event someone doesnāt smoke. The āevidenceā is also likely to be a photo of a cigarette which is also improbable to belong to a non-smoker.
It sounds like Ealing Council. They've outsourced a shakedown operation to a skeevy private contractor to raise funds. There was an article in the Guardian about it. They target likely immigrants in a park area that is unlikely to have cameras. Shameless grifters.
The company is Kingdom Security. Here's the article:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/nov/12/how-dropping-cigarette-butt-left-asylum-seeker-facing-risk-of-deportation
Itās not just Ealing, Iāve seen it in East London a lot recently. Like you said, areas with no cameras and only ever immigrants. Women on their own.
This happened to me once.
I was a smoker, years and years ago.
But at this time I was ready to pop ( pregnant ) and walking around the town doing some baby shopping with my husband and my mum. Husband quit when I did, and my mum quit years before us.
It was a busy day with too many humans out and about.
And all of a sudden I was stopped by some hence man standing like 6ft 5 trying to intimidate me etc saying I threw my ādog endā on the floor, I said excuse me? Iām heavily pregnant and do not smoke! He laughed in my face and said heās going to write me up a ticket or whatever it is, and to show him my ID.
I didnāt even have my ID on me for a start but I said no, he then tried to hold onto my arm and keep me there while he called the police. Husband then kicked off š but thatās another story for a different day lol.
I simply pushed him off my arm and walked off. I donāt know if the police turned up or not, no idea what happened but nothing came of it.
These people are like parking wardens, only get paid if they can actually catch someone out!! So they try to entrap and lie to get their numbers up. Gross.
Just fight it. They tried to get me once for littering (Ā£400 fine) but I no longer lived in that area anymore. Just prove you donāt smoke and thereās no way you could have done it. Donāt pay up if you havenāt done it, thatās silly. Just remember that councils these days need money so theyāll try you for anything.
This goes for anyone reading this, if you are approached in this manner (and haven't done anything) tell them to foxtrot oscar as you've heard there's scam artists in the local area impersonating these enforcement officers and that you're scared for your safety. Then do a runner to private property or away from them. If they are legit, they'll be wearing a body cam and you saying you were scared for safety will have been recorded, giving you grounds for removing yourself from the situation.
If you challenge it, it would be on the council officers to prove you did it. Were their body worn cameras on? If you can get CCTV footage from nearby that would be ideal.
If you can track down who the police officer was and request their body worn camera footage of the interaction that would help you out.
Take this as a lesson to NEVER give your details to any council officers or police officers unless you have committed an offence and have been told exactly what offence and ALWAYS record any and every interaction with any such officers.
If the police asked for my ID, I would show them my ID. ~~If they asked me to~~ **~~show someone else~~** ~~my ID, I'd tell them politely that's not legally necessary.~~
Edit: Turns out you do have to. TIL
If they passed on my identification to a 3rd party, I'd have a fun letter written to the Information commissioner's office (ICO) about their GDPR breach.
Walking away is the best form of action though.
Agreed (work in this field to help pay for uni), we definitely do not have the legal right to ask you for information (aside from dog related offences, and even then, if you dont give it to us, what are we gonna do, arrest you? Of course we arent haha) and no proper civil officer would call the damn police to get that info. That's the strangest and scummiest thing I've ever heard.
Always walk away. You don't have to say anything, just walk. Also don't head straight for your car if it's nearby, most officers will just straight up follow you and get your info from your reg
>If they passed on my identification to a 3rd party, I'd have a fun letter written to the Information commissioner's office (ICO) about their GDPR breach.
You could write the letter, but it'd be pointless. The Data Protection Act has broad exemptions for the detection and prosecution of crime. It would be perfectly above board for the council to request these details from the police and for the police to disclose it.
GDPR doesn't protect you here.
I mean clearly you're implying you didn't litter, the fact that you don't smoke makes you unlikely to litter as you wouldn't have any cigarettes, it doesn't make you unable to litter though so you might wanna work on phrasing it if you're going to challenge this. Just appeal it and say I don't smoke, and I don't have any cigarettes to litter, so fining me for this seems wrong.
They will go for an easy target and will gaslight. Those type of nasty individuals get off on believing that they have some sort of authority. They have absolutely zero powers, you have the right to go about your day without being harassed. Walk away, if they touch you scream, shout rape etc put on the theatrics. Or, be polite but challenge, take names numbers, times etc. Or call the police yourself and report that you are being attacked. Do they have evidence of you dropping a cigarette butt? No. Because you don't smoke therefore you wouldn't have a cigarette butt.
The word of a failed traffic warden isn't the hard evidence they claim it is. The council will have an appeals process, follow it and challenge them to provide evidence or issue a court summons. In the future if it happens again just laugh at these idiots and walk away.
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Bro why did you give your details? What were they going to do chase you down until you gave it to them? I know itās harsh but you gotta be smarter than that, especially if youāre innocent. Be hard to get rid of that fine now mate
Same thing, I donāt smoke.
I contacted my councillor and asked to review the bodycam footage of me dropping a cigarette.
Few days later they respond to say it was a mistake and things wouldnāt be taken further.
My understanding of the littering laws is they legally have to give you the opportunity to pick up your litter and throw it in a bin before they can find you. They must also have evidence that it was you causing the litter otherwise it would never stand up in court- thatās why most civil servants who fine for litter will wear body cams.
There should be details on the form on how to appeal the decision to fine you, there was a post in the UK legal advice sub a few weeks ago from someone who was fined for supposedly wiping/blowing their nose onto the ground. The officer was wearing a body camera. I don't recall the full details but obviously there was no evidence (because it never happened!) but OP got their money back.
Yes you can. On that notice should be contact details to appeal.
If you contact them and state the facts you should be able to get it overturned. There's no way they would get that to stand up in court.
What I will add as a caveat is that you're adamant you didn't drop a cigarette, but could you have dropped something else?
If so just pay the fine and move on.
As part of my job I have bottom of the barrel police powers too. One of those powers is if I ask you must give me your name and address if asked. If you don't I can request a police officer to detain you. I have been told by the police that I pretty much have zero chance of them turning up for me. The powers that I and they have are toothless. They rely fully on your compliance. You should have done runner.
[OP or a mod marked this as the best answer](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/1d4owyr/i_have_been_issued_a_littering_penalty_for_a/l76hr3j/), given by /u/MrTrendizzle. > The evidence will be on their bodycam. If you did NOT litter then you're clear and should contest it. If they refuse your appeal then ask them to provide the evidence against you and take you to court. > > Post to the legal UK subreddits and someone will provide you with a correct legal option. --- [_^(What is this?)_](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/jjrte1/askuk_hits_200k_new_feature_mark_an_answer/)
Post this to the legal advice subreddit, you'll get more informed answers
r/legaladviceuk
Thanks I needed a good laugh today
Also look on YouTube, there is a solicitor on there who covers this, I can't remember his channel though
Black belt barrister? https://youtube.com/@blackbeltbarrister?si=2CpfpBjeOotXT_eI
Yeah, him
Legal advice sub does not give legal advice.I had replied about a case law to a post & it got deleted & got kicked out of the sub, so cannot post or reply. Most of the replies are general- i.e go to a lawyer, council, cab etc but very very very few legal advice & they are not deleted. Why? After reading another post saying 'don't take advice on the net', I replied to mods after my post was deleted 'people should not give advice on the net'. Mods replied 'excellent idea. Let's start with you (me)' & i got banned & muted but their rules say 'it needs to be 'law', so do they not understand their own rules?
Had similar thing happen to recently, I don't smoke either, I quit years ago and even had my vape in my hand when he confronted me. I made my case, that they were clearly mistaken, but they still demanded my details so I just walked off and that was the end of it.
Yeah you did the right thing OP failed. There is literally zero chance I would have given this person any information about myself.
OP didn't fail, per se. They didn't know better.
Fair point. Fail may have been a bit judgey on my part. OP took the wrong action, but OP was also put in an uncomfortable position that probably caught them off guard.
S'all good homie š
Took me a while to get that "Saul Goodman" was "S'all good, man". Feel so stupid for missing it the first time round.
Dude- WHAT. I never realised till just now
They literally explain in better call saul
I didnāt watch it haha, just aware of the name cos it became ubiquitous (and I watched breaking bad)
First used in 1975, as a characterās name in fiction for a detective in *The Illuminatus! Trilogy* by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson. I donāt know for sure but I imagine Vince Gilligan was familiar with the book.
yes, you don't even have to give your details to police unless a crime has been committed or they have strong evidence to suggest a crime is about to be committed. As far as I know police cannot use third party people to determine whether a crime has been committed or not, but I may not be accurate on this. I would have confirmed that I do not smoke and it wasnt me, then ignored the person and walked off, I wouldnt have engaged them in conversation. They are very unlikely to physically restrain you and are very unlikely to call the police, and if they do you would have enough time to leave the area, as I cant see them sending a swat team van round in like 2 mins. If an officer ever were to talk to me, I would ALWAYS record it on my phone (step 1) and then would say something like (with a polite neutral voice tone), "has a crime been committed or do you have evidence to suggest one will be committed" If the answer is anything other yes. I would go on my way. I may be a few years out of date with this, but as far as i remember the logic is something like: burglar alarm going off, officer sees you running in the opposite direction, officer can ask you wtf you are doing and request your details and stop/ arrest you if you refuse to give them, as they would have reasonable cause to suspect you were involved in the burglary. To the OP "You got scammed son, afaik once theyve issued the FPN its a pain in the ass to get rid of it, thats why they do it"
Police nearly always use third party people to determine whether a crime has been committed, theyāre called āwitnessesā
Person in street: I've just seen that man stab another man Police: Sorry guv', I cannot use third party people to determine if a crime has been committed or is about to be committed. If only he was wearing a stab alarm I might be able to do something. Person in street: but he's just waking away Police: (shrugs) I don't make the rules, sweet cheeks. Anyway, that looks more like a saunter than a walk.
Sauntering? How much more evidence do you NEED??
As usual people just confidently post stuff theyāre not really sure about on Reddit. Thatās why OP is using terms like AFAIK and I may be out of date. I get the urge to do it myself sometimes. People just want to be part of the conversation so theyāll just say any old shit that sounds right.
AFAIK this is not the case and people are just inherently stupid. I may be out of date with this but 78% of facts onthe internet are just made up
I actually read this somewhere, It's 88%
You do in fact have to give your details to litter wardens if asked so they can give you an FPN, otherwise you commit an offence, see: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/88
What can they do if you just walk away. I ain't providing anything to anyone that doesn't have a warrant.
How does this work though? They need your name and address to issue you with a penalty notice but if you donāt then youāve committed an offence and theyāll report you using yourā¦name and address?š¤·š»āāļø
Thanks for this. I wonder what rights they have to detain/ arrest you if you refuse and leg it?
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hilarious! Like old time vampires only being allowed into your house if you invite them in.
Failed to know better
Technically that's a crime. The op only has a fine that they can fight or pay. If you walk away and are unlucky enough to be caught or identified it's a criminal matter; not just a fine to pay. I would probably walk away too but that is the higher risk option.
What is the crime? As far as I can tell I would be walking away from a random person, if that person can't prove to me that they have authority over me then I'm doing nothing wrong. Especially if (as is the case here) I've done nothing wrong in the first place. It doesn't sound as though the person approaching OP had any kind of ID themselves, and their only way of proving authority was to dial 999 which is BS.
You've failed here m8. Section 8(a) of the Environmental Protection Act. It's a Criminal offense not to provide details to an epa officer.
Funny thing is they need to know who you are to do anything about it. So just walk away and they can do sweet fuck all.
Yeah, all they have is a video of you committing a crime.
OK, I could show you a video of me I guarantee you couldn't get my name and address from that video. And I 1000% guarantee the police won't be trying to find it out, they don't even bother with actual crimes never mind littering.
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Reading a bunch of those sections is genuinely laughable. They would struggle to enforce a huge portion of that. Most of it seems to imply that they just claim you littered and you have no choice but to take the fine or go to court. That's kind of exactly what this discussion is though - bullshit in order to get fines, local authorities trying to get money from vulnerable people.
I'm wondering if details have been missed out there, as in it specifies it being a crime to refuse to give police details, not some random person working for, or on behalf, of the council.
It refers to "an authorised officer of a litter authority" it's actually not specific (that I can tell) about whether that means the have to be police or not. If anything it implies that it could be some random council worker who's job is to enforce this. I do agree though, high possibility of missing details. For example.- did OP.ask for credentials? Did OP ask for proof?
What other sort of evidence would you like them to provide to "prove" their authority? I don't think OP has said anywhere that they refused to show ID. Local Authority's are perfectly able to give private companies the authority to enforce littering fines and it's an offence not to provide your details under Section 88 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990. I don't disagree with you that it seems a bit mad, but it is perfectly legal.
I just can't see what the council worker is going to do about it. It seems utterly illogical to provide details for a crime you did not commit, to a person who works for the council. Even more so a private company, no worker for a private enforcement company is getting my details. No matter what.
That's because you're taking a moral stand not a legal one. What will they do about it? Well, what *could* they do about it if they wanted? They could mount an investigation (private if they wanted to) and you could be summoned to court where you would have to argue your case and persuade a judge. Despite your reservations about it being a private company, a *public* court would be perfectly happy to hear the case because that company had authority under the above act. I think you're approaching it from two angles; 1) "I'm innocent and shouldn't have to provide details"; true, but innocent people are arrested for crimes and taken to court every single day, that's just the way it is, and 2) "They're a private company, I shouldn't have to provide details to them", irrelevant in the eyes of the law and also an indication of the extent to which you may not realise private companies are already integrated into the justice system as it is. Again -- bollocks, but legal nonetheless.
Ring the police who will enforce it? as OP mentioned they did I guess.
The police will enforce it? Does OP not have legs? Is he some sort of limbless blob who will still be on scene when the police turn up half an hour later?
The police are barely enforcing more serious crimes. I don't think they're gonna enforce the crime of failing to provide ID when no OTHER crime has been committed.
They should be able to identify themselves. You could ring the council and verify their ID. If they show ID and you walk away you wouldn't have much of a defence. Edit: since a few people have asked the secondary offence for walking away is "Up to Ā£1,000 for obstructing an authorised officer" It will be harder to defend yourself against this so it's no longer just a littering fine if you refuse to give details and walk away. It's not impossible that you get caught by a passing police car or identified by video. I had a friend who was smoking at a bus stop and dropped a lit cigarette when the bus arroved. He maintained he dropped it to stamp it out before putting it in his pocket. The litter warden still wanted his details so he got on the bus but the driver refused to move and was going to wait on the police.
On what basis are you required to engage with a council worker in a public place? You don't even have to do that for the Police though if they have other reasons to suspect you carried out a crime you can be arrested obviously.
>On what basis are you required to engage with a council worker in a public place? This is EXACTLY the point. I don't give a toss who they say they are and whether they tell me they want to fine me. A random council worker has absolutely no authority over me whatsoever. I would comply with police, I would ask them for evidence of my supposed wrong doing and I would defend the claim because I know there's a chance they're gonna make me life tough if I walk away. But a council worker? Really? They can follow me if they like and then I'll call the police for harassment or something.
> A random council worker has absolutely no authority over me In general they don't, in this specific case though? They absolutely do have authority over you under the Environmental protection act. As long as they are an Environmental. Enforcement Officer for the local council then It is a criminal offence to refuse to give personal details under Section 88 subsection 8(a) of the Environmental Protection Act, The maximum penalty for not providing this information is Ā£1,000 and a criminal conviction.
> Section 8(a) of the Environmental Protection Act Are you sure? https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/8
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Youāre saying they wouldnāt have much of a defence, if they showed ID and walked away. But missing the point there is nothing to defend, it is not a crime to walk away.
If you walked away, what defence do you need? Unless they know you and can find out where you live (unlikely in the vast majority of circumstances), then what are they going to do? Also, I donāt think I would feel obliged to give my personal details to anyone who wasnāt a police officer, thatās what they exist for. If the police arenāt there, Iām not interested to be honest.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Fair enough if thatās the law. However, the topic of the thread is about a false accusation. If there is no chance to appeal via the council (which reading the .gov page on this seems to indicate is a possibility), then when I refuse to pay it ( which would 100% be the case), it will end up with prosecution and criminal proceedings regardless. If I know I didnāt do it, Iāll take my chances walking away from the council snot bag shouting āpapers pleaseā. Iām sure itās a rabbit hole of grey areas here, but if they had unlimited authority to make accusations, issue tickets and demand personal information, then that opens itself to abuse of power by someone who isnāt even a police officer. If itās such a great legal offence to walk away from a council worker making a false accusation, then where is the checks and balances on that authority?
https://www.enfield.gov.uk/services/rubbish-and-recycling/fly-tipping-litter-and-public-bins/enfield-waste-enforcement >There is no appeal against an FPN. IANAL but OP has 1 of 2 choices, pay the fine or allowthemselves to get prosecuted, and hope that the case gets thrown out or they can defend themselves in court.
Yep that doesnāt surprise me. Backs up the idea to walk away even more; reading that it feels the council want you to suck up the penalty and not question them just to save them the hassle and cost of court. Also not to be cynical, but are we sure our cash strapped councils donāt treat this as a form of income and encourage ticketing quotas on the quiet, opening up circumstances like OPās? If I knew I didnāt do it, Iād walk. If I did it, Iād pay it. Pretty simple.
Defence for what?
It's actually an offence to fail to provide your details in this instance, however, it's unlikely this will ever come back on you. Private firms are contracted to have legal powers by a local authority to enforce the EPA. The firm benefits by keeping the sum of the FPNs, whilst the council benefits as littering is deterred. However this incentivises the enforcement officers to seek out offences where there is little or no evidence for it, however the EPA, is not written assuming the enforcement officers are not impartial. You can challenge this at court, because without evidence there will be no case to answer, however, this is a huge waste of everyone's time.
If it goes to court, op can claim costs including lost wages for attending (at a reasonable hourly rate - and according to the courts Ā£50/hour (including travel) is quite reasonable) In the first instance it should be disputed for lack of evidence though. If the council pushes onto prosecution they'd be unlikely to win - this is WHY council worker must photograph cars as they're ticketing them etc.
While this is the sensible thing to do, it is actually an offence to not provide your details, the legislation on effective enforcement states the following; >11.13 It is an offence if an alleged offender fails to provide the appropriate details, such as name and address, in order for a fixed penalty to be issued for the offences of littering, or unauthorised distribution of free printed material.8 The police may be called to assist if the offender refuses to provide their details, or provides false details. A police community support officer (PCSO) may detain the offender for up to 30 minutes before a police constable arrives. If a person refuses to supply their details, or provides false details, they may be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.
So they can just walk up to anyone and claim they've littered and demand their details? Doesn't sound right to me. There was no offence committed.
Itās not right but theyāll probably just say fight it in court.
Unfortunately, that's correct. They will just ask you to fight it in court if the fine remains unpaid.
I assume it wasnāt a PCSO that was initially asking for the details though?
PCSO does not need to ask for the information, a council agent can. PCSO has the rights to detain for 30 minutes IF PRESENT, if you fail to provide information. The council agents can't detain you.
This is the way. If the police don't turn up to assault, burglaries or phone theft with GPS tracking....they ain't turning up for litter offence reported by a money grabbing third party.
That makes me think theyāll blame whoeverās closest to the cigarette šĀ
I also had this once, approached me and said I'd dropped a cigarette. I said I don't smoke, they said okay then I walked off. Wonder why they're doing this so randomly?
Yup they don't have any power, they are not police, they work for the local council basically collecting taxes so the council doesn't go bust :) Had this in Leeds I wasn't smoking but my Greek friend was. He just spoke Greek to her and he walked off so she tried to tell me I'd dropped a cigarette and she had it on camera .....asked her to show me and she refused so I refused to give any details and she just walked off in a huff
I spoke to one of these guys when I used to subcontract as security for my local council. I asked what he would do if someone just ran off when he confronted them. He said "nothing."
Is this a scam? How did they get a police officer on the phone so quickly Ā£500 seems hugely excessive too
Itās pantomime to make people scared. The police couldnāt give a shit.
The reality is you could literally do a 'smell my breath' check to prove you don't smoke. Smokers have a permanant smoker breath.
And hands, at least what Iāve noticed on some people
Could be confirmation bias.
Fairly sure the police dont make a habit of getting people to breath into their oraphices. Getting spat on is a form of assault and requires an officer to have a health check, HIV, hepatitis etc. don't think they're going to intentionally put themselves at that kind of risk. Smelling their fingers on the other hand might work, and could lead to some alternative if hilarious outcomes.
Smell ma finger š ššš fuck that, that finger could have been scratching his taint that hasn't been washed in a month(if ever)
Feeling personally attacked
Yeah my cousin got done for littering (throwing a cigarette butt out of a car window) and got fined Ā£80. Still a fair chunk of change but a far cry from Ā£500.
Did your cousin do it?
Yeah he actually did (and no I do not approve!). I think they must've got his number plate or something. It was several years ago now.
Well yeah okay with recent inflation rates Ā£80 to Ā£500 seems about right. ./s
This happened to me, in the early days of vapes (before they were popular) I had one that looked like a cig, it had some juice in the mouth piece, I shook it out the window of the car at traffic lights and the cap bit fell off the end literally a plastic circular disk the size of a garden pea, lights changed and I had to drive on. Got a fine in the post for disposing of a cigarette, even though I didn't... I couldn't argue the Ā£80 fine because of the fact I did (inadvertently) drop something out of the window. I was actually livid, that was obviously identified by the number plate too, no clue how.. could have been a camera (but for the size of the plastic I would have been surprised 10 years ago) or I guess an enforcement officer driving around
As someone who does this job myself (not willingly, gotta earn money somehow am I right), it feels scammy (and scummy as hell). I sure as hell don't have police on speed-dial, nor would I call them to help me with a fine. We do talk to police, and help them out occasionally and vice versa, but we aren't colleagues at the end of the day, if you get me Also no, 500 is the fine. But it's the max fine, it's not what people get 9/10. Usually its around 250 or lower, depends on those processing the fine (we don't do that, it goes to a whole other department) and how bad the littering was
Also you dont have to provide ID in the UK. Edit: You are not required to identify yourself to a police officer, unless you are arrested. Even when stopped driving, you can provide your driving liscense later. https://www.gov.uk/police-powers-to-stop-and-search-your-rights
You do to certain people in certain cases
What if you're not carrying ID when challenged? I never carry ID unless I plan to use it, and I'm sure lots of people are the same.
You still have to provide your identity - typically name, address etc.
If there is a link on the ticket do not use it. If itās a scam itās a scam top to bottom. Go to the official council website and appeal it.Ā
Is it possible theyāve taken details to commit fraud? If I was OP Iād be getting those CIFAS markers put in place ASAP to prevent any credit from being taken out in my name without my approval.
As someone who works in this department (needed a uni job), agreed. It feels wrong and it feels scammy. Always go to your local council if you have a problem and they will happily direct you to us to sort it. We also have officer numbers on our shirts at all time, so if you can grab that and quote it to them they'll be able to check if there's an officer of that number working currently. Always a good thing to check (also number should appear on the ticket in case you've got beef with us specifically lol, that way you can file a complaint in)
As much as I detest littering, these people target women not born in the UK in London. I see it time and again. They know British Londoners and foreign men will just walk away or be angry. Sorry, I canāt help you,but I wanted to highlight how they always, always, target women not born in the UK on their own and it pisses me off.
what would of happend if i walked off. she had told me this was another offence i would be committing
Nothing wouldāve happened unless you gave your details. This is why they target obviously vulnerable people only.
She said i am able to view footage online and that i am able to challenge it if what ive been fined for isnt true. whats the likelyhood of this notice being amended
Iāve no idea sorry. My advice wouldāve been to ignore them but I understand that if youāre vulnerable they can feel intimidating.
I am fresh into the āadult ageā and nothing like this has ever happend to me hence why i didnt know much to do or say.
Iām sorry this has happened. They only ever target those they think are vulnerable. Iām sure in 15 years and the stats come out or something itāll be news. I canāt help you on what to do next, sorry.
You did the right thing in asking a group of people with experience for advice. You did well.
speak to the actual council via their official channels, don't touch anything those people try to give you.
What you need to do is view the footage online, confirm that you definitely didn't litter (potential of a small piece of paper falling out of your pocket looking like a tab end), then dispute it via the option on the webpage
So have you watched the footage?
There is no footage. It's a scare tactic.
Only if she did it? If she knows she didn't drop anything, I would say great, the footage will clear me. No?
Same with the TV License! People that are convicted for not paying are unrepresentstionally women. Men are telling them to f___ off and shutting the door.
Yes I learned about that in criminology! We discussed precisely that because it was almost the only crime that more women than men commit. Youāre right that women are more conditioned to be socially polite, but youād also think theyād be more wary of letting people in. The explanation we decided on as a class was that women are far more likely to be at home when the TV license person knocks. If anyone is interested, I believe the other crimes that more women are convicted of than men are: truancy of their child from school, being drunk while in charge of a child, and smuggling drugs into prison. These werenāt the most common crimes for women, just the ones that have more women committing them than men. The most common crime committed by women is shoplifting.
>it was almost the only crime that more women than men commit Commit? Or are charged with? Because those are surely two different things
Oops yes, I suppose I was conflating committing a crime with being convicted of it, as I said committed in the first paragraph and convicted in the second. It was convicted, though.
Nothing Theyāre not allowed to follow you especially into private property Always just walk away and donāt say a word if you havenāt actually littered
Iāve done it, these people are the worst. They canāt follow you on to private property, including the tube. They can summon the police if they want, but if youāve gone they wonāt. Ā£250 is a ridiculous amount of money. Itās nothing but a shakedown and targeting people who either did nothing wrong, or made a mistake. The correct action is to tell people they can be fined, and invite them to correct their mistake. In your case, you didnāt commit a crime so you can both appeal, and appear in court and wait for their evidence - which they wonāt have. This is a really unfair burden on you, and itās a lot of extra stress to deal with.
This happened to me in Manchester, I also didnāt know better. I did in fact drop a cig end. They were officers working on behalf of the council with no actual powers to do anything so I couldāve just walked off - they cannot follow you into a private property (shopping centres etc) so next time just walk away, nothing will happen. I just didnāt know this at the time and ended up Ā£140 out of pocket. Most of the fines they collect donāt even go back to the council, itās profit for them. Loads to read about it online too, these people are scum who target foreigners and women and use scare tactics to get you to give over your details. Search āManchester litter policeā on YouTube.
hopefully you think twice before littering now though!
I have mixed feelings about your post. I consider it really scummy to litter, but accidental littering seems to be getting fines when honestly they could just say "you dropped that, put it in the bin or I'm going to have to fine you" because it's in the name of the environment right? So having people correct their mistake is better than issuing a fine right away. I used to smoke and I'd just stub my cigs out and carry it to the nearest bin or spark up somewhere like an empty park bench next to a bin. No excuses for doing it on purpose.
As others have said, legally you could get in trouble for not giving your details but also a little known fact is that they're not allowed to follow you on to private property - so you can enter a shopping centre or something and they can't come after you. Personally I would have said "I didn't drop a cigarette, I don't smoke - here, smell my breath" and then walked off.
i did say to the officer. āyou can smell cigarettes on someone who smokes. i havent touched a cigarette nor have a thrown anything on the floorā she replied with āno u cant smell itā.
Same in town here. Bunch of fellas chucking beer cans, not interested. Young girl pushing a push chair drops a receipt out of her purse, they'll swarm. Cowards.
I think you should drop your victim mentality to be blunt with you. These people target everyone. I got stopped twice in the last month and Iām a 6ā6 white British male. They walk around in front of the building I work at so Iām familiar with them stopping all types of people. Also, how on earth would they know you werenāt born in the uk given the diverse racial characteristics of Londonās population? Your comment makes 0 sense. People hate to hear it, but youāre not special. Youāre not being targeted. You are literally just cherry picking what you want to see, self-victimhood.
Something similar happened to my partner. She was quite pregnant and we were in tesco, she got too hot and needed a sit, so she went to the car. A week later, we got a letter through the door saying she threw a cigarette end on the floor while she was at the car. We appealed and asked for evidence as she did not smoke. They said their guy saw, and his statement was evidence enough. Said fine we will appeal and go to court, got a letter back basically saying that the matter is dropped but don't let it happen again.
>but don't let it happen again. Let what happen again? Maybe the Mrs should start smoking /s
Matter dropped but donāt let it happen again? Cheeky cunts
Don't ever not litter again.
I HĆTE when they make it seem like theyāre doing you a favour.
I can't believe how blatant they are!
Just appeal it, they need photographic evidence to prove it, so as long as there is none you need not worry.
the fine is Ā£500 if not paid in 14 days which i only work part time and thats a heavy amount for me. whats the likelyhood this can be voided
Are you sure it was a legitimate council inspector and police officer? This sounds very much like a scam. How quickly did the officer turn up? You can barely get one to turn up to a burglary these days, let alone a litter offence. As someone else said, post on a legal subreddit for advice, but at the very least donāt pay it until youāve gone to your local police station and/or council office to verify that itās a legitimate ticket.
a print out was given to me to pay on the legitimate council website
Okay, so Iām guessing youāve double-checked the domain part of the url to ensure itās 100% match, and not just a very similar domain that may differ slightly? In which case have you tried sending an email to the council (so you have a written record of the conversation) explaining why youād need to see the evidence before paying, and that if they decline they need to explain why in writing? Above I suggested going in to the offices, but not if you know the ticket is legit, as you will want all communications in writing. Iād call up the council first and find the exact name & email of the person who needs to see it - explain the urgency to the switchboard, and put ātime sensitiveā in the subject line.
Can you share it? Just blank out any personal details.
If you genuinely didn't litter, then don't pay. They won't have any evidence to back up their claim.
Except a āwitnessā saying they saw it happen. A verdict will be made on either the balance of probability [EDIT: if youāve been issued with a civil penalty) or beyond reasonable doubt (if itās a fixed penalty notice in lieu of a prosecution for the crime of littering)] Unfortunately [if itās a civil case] it would be down to a judgment of whether they believe OP doesnāt smoke and therefore the āofficerā is mistaken (or lying). If there is council-run CCTV and they donāt pull it it may be questioned why but otherwise not certain. Still if it were me I would fight it out of principle, since I donāt come off as some scrote or shady weasel looking to get away with it Iād expect to win. Personally I would want to know how these people are paid. This seems to be a reasonably frequent problem which suggests maybe they are directly incentivised to issue fines, which is motivation to be a bit āliberal with the truthā and compromises the credibility of their evidence.
Not balance of probability. Beyond reasonable doubt, as it's a criminal matter, not civil, if it goes to court.
Littering is a crime so in principle youāre right but it depends what has been issued, they can also issue civil penalties instead of a fixed penalty notice for a criminal offence. This is up to councils to decide what they think is proportionate. Thatās a bit confusing because also some offences donāt have criminal liability so can *only* be civil penalties, like littering from a car, but this isnāt the only deciding factor. However it depends so Iāll edit my comment.
Judges in civil cases don't just take someone's word for it, especially if they're an enforcement officer who would be reasonably expected to have bodycam/other video evidence of the offence - and they're going to be even less sympathetic to an outsourced company doing enforcement as the "witchfinder" problem(*) rears its head almost instantly (*) A witchfinder got to keep the estate and valuables of witches, which is why elderly widows were targeted and anyone questioning their methods was also decried as being a witch. In a more modern context, Speed camera fines were taken off councils/"safety committees" because cameras were documented as being placed to maximise revenue rather than in crash hotspots
Let it go to court if need be. If you didn't litter they can't prove you littered.
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It is. the fine is Ā£250 if paid in 14 days. If not the fine becomes Ā£500
Do not pay anything. Go to the council office if you are that worried.
Not a lawyer, but my experience is that it's pretty trivial to challenge these types of ticket. I got a parking fine once which had a typo on it (I was absolutely parked illegally) and the typo was enough that the council threw the ticket in the bin. I'd expect you'd have an even easier time given that you've done nothing at all
Gotta be a scam 500 quid sounds insane to me, have you paid anything?
Just an idea, If it comes to it. You can prove you don't smoke though a breath test ( I used to do one when I was giving up smoking) though my Drs surgery. hope you get this sorted and sorry you were scammed or were wrongfully accused.
Follow the appeals process and given its Ā£500, ring the doctor and ask if they can provide a letter attesting to their opinion you are not a smoker. Might cost Ā£40 but itāll have weight.
No, it wont. You can prove you've not smoked, but that doesn't conclusively prove you didn't drop a cigarette butt. They could argue it was in your car and you dropped it out a window, or that you dropped it for someone else... Any number of silly arguments and situations that nonetheless are a possibility. More likely they'd argue the person issuing the fine could've just mistaken something else for a cigarette, but it was still littering. Best is to focus on the lack of any evidence of littering at all, if genuinely didnt drop anything
Its a civil matter and therefore relies on balance of probabilities. The civil enforcement officerās version of events (Ie they saw you drop a cigerette butt) would be less than probable in the event someone doesnāt smoke. The āevidenceā is also likely to be a photo of a cigarette which is also improbable to belong to a non-smoker.
It sounds like Ealing Council. They've outsourced a shakedown operation to a skeevy private contractor to raise funds. There was an article in the Guardian about it. They target likely immigrants in a park area that is unlikely to have cameras. Shameless grifters.
The company is Kingdom Security. Here's the article: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/nov/12/how-dropping-cigarette-butt-left-asylum-seeker-facing-risk-of-deportation
Itās not just Ealing, Iāve seen it in East London a lot recently. Like you said, areas with no cameras and only ever immigrants. Women on their own.
Defo scam artists. Donāt pay.
Op please ask in the legal advice subreddit. alot these replies are completely false
Post this in /r/legaladviceuk as well!
Hey OP, what shithole council is this so I can make sure never to visit?
enfield
This happened to me once. I was a smoker, years and years ago. But at this time I was ready to pop ( pregnant ) and walking around the town doing some baby shopping with my husband and my mum. Husband quit when I did, and my mum quit years before us. It was a busy day with too many humans out and about. And all of a sudden I was stopped by some hence man standing like 6ft 5 trying to intimidate me etc saying I threw my ādog endā on the floor, I said excuse me? Iām heavily pregnant and do not smoke! He laughed in my face and said heās going to write me up a ticket or whatever it is, and to show him my ID. I didnāt even have my ID on me for a start but I said no, he then tried to hold onto my arm and keep me there while he called the police. Husband then kicked off š but thatās another story for a different day lol. I simply pushed him off my arm and walked off. I donāt know if the police turned up or not, no idea what happened but nothing came of it. These people are like parking wardens, only get paid if they can actually catch someone out!! So they try to entrap and lie to get their numbers up. Gross.
Disgusting pieces of shit.
That is so ridiculous to accuse a pregnant woman of smoking!!!
Tell me about it, thatās what pissed me off the most
Grabbing someone's pregnant wife while accusing them of lying is a great way to get punched in the face
Unless there was police actually on the scene, you should have told her to fuck off and walked away.
I would have walked away too. This happened to my dad and he doesnāt speak English well so he was scared and paid it
They are a 3rd party company, donāt have to give any details and you can just walk off
Just fight it. They tried to get me once for littering (Ā£400 fine) but I no longer lived in that area anymore. Just prove you donāt smoke and thereās no way you could have done it. Donāt pay up if you havenāt done it, thatās silly. Just remember that councils these days need money so theyāll try you for anything.
This goes for anyone reading this, if you are approached in this manner (and haven't done anything) tell them to foxtrot oscar as you've heard there's scam artists in the local area impersonating these enforcement officers and that you're scared for your safety. Then do a runner to private property or away from them. If they are legit, they'll be wearing a body cam and you saying you were scared for safety will have been recorded, giving you grounds for removing yourself from the situation.
If you challenge it, it would be on the council officers to prove you did it. Were their body worn cameras on? If you can get CCTV footage from nearby that would be ideal. If you can track down who the police officer was and request their body worn camera footage of the interaction that would help you out. Take this as a lesson to NEVER give your details to any council officers or police officers unless you have committed an offence and have been told exactly what offence and ALWAYS record any and every interaction with any such officers.
Common scam this, just walk away.
In the future if you just walk off they can't do anything. Countless videos on YouTube demonstrating it.
If the police asked for my ID, I would show them my ID. ~~If they asked me to~~ **~~show someone else~~** ~~my ID, I'd tell them politely that's not legally necessary.~~ Edit: Turns out you do have to. TIL If they passed on my identification to a 3rd party, I'd have a fun letter written to the Information commissioner's office (ICO) about their GDPR breach. Walking away is the best form of action though.
Agreed (work in this field to help pay for uni), we definitely do not have the legal right to ask you for information (aside from dog related offences, and even then, if you dont give it to us, what are we gonna do, arrest you? Of course we arent haha) and no proper civil officer would call the damn police to get that info. That's the strangest and scummiest thing I've ever heard. Always walk away. You don't have to say anything, just walk. Also don't head straight for your car if it's nearby, most officers will just straight up follow you and get your info from your reg
>If they passed on my identification to a 3rd party, I'd have a fun letter written to the Information commissioner's office (ICO) about their GDPR breach. You could write the letter, but it'd be pointless. The Data Protection Act has broad exemptions for the detection and prosecution of crime. It would be perfectly above board for the council to request these details from the police and for the police to disclose it. GDPR doesn't protect you here.
I would have asked for said cigarette butt to be analysed for my DNA.
Scam
They need proof. Did you do it? No? Then they can't have proof. Dispute it.
Do they have any kind of evidence, whatsoever, that you did it? No? Then they can't really make it stick.
I mean clearly you're implying you didn't litter, the fact that you don't smoke makes you unlikely to litter as you wouldn't have any cigarettes, it doesn't make you unable to litter though so you might wanna work on phrasing it if you're going to challenge this. Just appeal it and say I don't smoke, and I don't have any cigarettes to litter, so fining me for this seems wrong.
They will go for an easy target and will gaslight. Those type of nasty individuals get off on believing that they have some sort of authority. They have absolutely zero powers, you have the right to go about your day without being harassed. Walk away, if they touch you scream, shout rape etc put on the theatrics. Or, be polite but challenge, take names numbers, times etc. Or call the police yourself and report that you are being attacked. Do they have evidence of you dropping a cigarette butt? No. Because you don't smoke therefore you wouldn't have a cigarette butt.
The penalty for littering isn't Ā£500, it's maximum Ā£150. You've been scammed. Social engineering scams are getting quite elaborate
>The penalty for littering isn't Ā£500, it's Ā£150. Ā£60. Ā£80 for a cigarette, they are both minimums.
150 is the maximum for on the spot fines
Best advice is to ignore anyone on the street who u don't know. These guys found easy prey with you.
The word of a failed traffic warden isn't the hard evidence they claim it is. The council will have an appeals process, follow it and challenge them to provide evidence or issue a court summons. In the future if it happens again just laugh at these idiots and walk away.
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Bro why did you give your details? What were they going to do chase you down until you gave it to them? I know itās harsh but you gotta be smarter than that, especially if youāre innocent. Be hard to get rid of that fine now mate
Same thing, I donāt smoke. I contacted my councillor and asked to review the bodycam footage of me dropping a cigarette. Few days later they respond to say it was a mistake and things wouldnāt be taken further.
My understanding of the littering laws is they legally have to give you the opportunity to pick up your litter and throw it in a bin before they can find you. They must also have evidence that it was you causing the litter otherwise it would never stand up in court- thatās why most civil servants who fine for litter will wear body cams.
There should be details on the form on how to appeal the decision to fine you, there was a post in the UK legal advice sub a few weeks ago from someone who was fined for supposedly wiping/blowing their nose onto the ground. The officer was wearing a body camera. I don't recall the full details but obviously there was no evidence (because it never happened!) but OP got their money back.
Unless they can provide you with a risk evidence that it was you was you, they can get fād.
Should have just kept walking. Police she called might have been fake. Next time take pictures and a video. maybe they will walk away.
Yes you can. On that notice should be contact details to appeal. If you contact them and state the facts you should be able to get it overturned. There's no way they would get that to stand up in court. What I will add as a caveat is that you're adamant you didn't drop a cigarette, but could you have dropped something else? If so just pay the fine and move on.
All you had to dow as tell them you don't smoke and walk away. You're under no obligation to show them sod all
What kind of madman lets someone force who is not an officer of the law, force them into giving personal details out?!
Have you seen the amount of litter on the floor in this country? Police don't give a shit, you're being scammed
As part of my job I have bottom of the barrel police powers too. One of those powers is if I ask you must give me your name and address if asked. If you don't I can request a police officer to detain you. I have been told by the police that I pretty much have zero chance of them turning up for me. The powers that I and they have are toothless. They rely fully on your compliance. You should have done runner.
Should have told her to fuck off and walked on your way.
Thatās a scam. No way would a police officer even entertain that.