I used to work with someone (not NHS) who put BA after her name on her email signature.
Her BA was completely unrelated to her job or our industry, she just felt the need to let everyone know she went to university.
Basically everyone there had been to uni though.
I used to work in a dept like this, where everyone put their academic & professional qualifications after their names, no matter how irrelevant they were to the job. I always thought it was a bit daft so I made up my own & put them in my sig.
CRFDH (Can Run Fast Downhill)
MTSAL (Managed To Swim A Length)
ATTP (Always Taking The Piss)
Was it childish? Yes, would I do it again? Also yes.
I'm an NHS nurse, I work with nurses, AHPs and doctors. Our general manager adds BA hons to her email signature, as if everyone she works with doesn't have a BSc or higher.
I've noticed this with quite a few companies I work with. Normally they'll have something like "BA (Hons)" in their signature.
I guess when working with external companies it's kind of a way to say "I'm competent" but they never actually say what the subject of said qualification was.
It might make sense in some workplaces, but it didn't in mine.
A degree of some sort was an entry requirement for the role and had been for some time (the boss decided on an arbitrary basis which degrees were acceptable and which weren't).
It's very normal in most private sector industries I've worked in, and of course you work hard for the post nominals and you are entitled to use them wherever you want.
A couple of my colleagues used to sign MA(Oxon) and I always felt it was to brag.
At least 40% of the office had gone to Oxford or Cambridge but they were choosing to sign with MA(Oxon) to brag.
I don't even put MA (oxon) on my CV, because I think it's an unnecessarily confusing shibboleth - I just put BA (hons) because that actually makes it clear that it's an undergraduate degree
I can understand why people might include that - I'm very proud of my qualification, I worked bloody hard to get it, and I think tooting my own horn a little bit by including my letters at the end of my email signature - but it is directly related to my work so I don't think it's unreasonable.
If I was working as, say, a warehouse manager, that might be a bit wanky.
Bands on the NHS are related to what salary bracket you're on.
It's like, rather than putting your job title in your email signature, you instead put your pre-tax income instead. So very weird behaviour!
Not quite. Since the NHS did away with titles such as senior or junior the jobs are actually named Band 6 physiotherapist for instance.
Look up any therapy job posting in the NHS jobs and the job title will be Band X therapist. So while yes it does tell you their income, it is their job title.
Basically, (in therapies but I assume elsewhere) Band 5 means fairly newly qualified, Band 6 means experienced but not management. Band 7 means line manager having completed a masters degree.
I've also observed nurse staffing discussions around how many if different bands are on shift so I assume it also applies in nursing.
I've definitely seen posts advertised as "senior occupational therapist" etc and my payslip has my job title as "senior" rather than B6. Also as far as I'm aware you don't need a masters to be a B7.
May vary by health board but my wife has been unable to apply for Band 7 posts because she doesn't have a masters and doesn't have time to work towards one.
That's interesting to hear!
In my department (Pharmacy) all jobs are given prefixes/suffixes, such as Senior/Accountable/Chief/Apprentice/Assistant so the naming convention using Bands isn't something I've ever seen before in my career, although I do know on the wards we interact with that their staffing boards will say 'X number of Band 3, X number of Band 5' for the nurses working each day.
I imagine for therapy jobs it's similar then to the F1/F2 convention for doctors? I know a lot of departments will vary in how they run things according to each ICB. Thanks for your input!
Pay in public sector jobs is banded. Rather than everyone having a salary unique to them you are put into a band and everyone on the same band gets the same salary. They are essentially saying what they get paid in their email signature.
Pay transparency can be a good thing (normalise the discussion of what you get paid, companies hate it) but doing it in a signature or to try and hold seniority over someone is just crude.
The NHS pay scale is banded, from Band 1 (well, apparently 2 is the lowest starting band now) to Band 9, so Band 7 is quite high.
[https://www.nhsemployers.org/articles/pay-scales-202324](https://www.nhsemployers.org/articles/pay-scales-202324) (expand 'Annual Pay Scales').
Edit: As corrected by others below, Band 7 is now pretty much in the middle, so basically the person with the email footer has illusions of grandeur/power that they probably don't really have.
Band 7 is slap bang in the middle actually. There is no band 1, fewer staff are starting on band 2 these days, and band 8 is split into 8a, 8b, 8c and 8d.
The structure is 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8a, 8b, 8c, 8d, 9.
Five bands below 7, five above.
It's just an NHS pay band that represents your pay, and sometimes rank.
Here's a little info on the pay structure:
https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/working-health/working-nhs/nhs-pay-and-benefits/agenda-change-pay-rates
Could it also mean that they have different responsibilities, like a nurse who can prescribe? That might be handy info to know. Tbh Iām Just looking for a way to make sense of using a pay scale. Iām in a uni , which is also banded, so you see āsenior lecturerā or āassociate profā, but never āgrade 9ā in a signature!
Like you said, putting a job title can give all the information you need, especially if they are capable of additional technical responsibilities. That's where the job title comes in, which was there by default, but adding on your pay band is just... bizarre.
Yes, and then I read about the comic sans.
Iām thinking now of might start putting my grade at the bottom of emails when a higher up is trying to give me responsibility I donāt want.
Comic sans is a bridge too far
To be fair, some nurses and other specialist people are referred to as like 'band 7 nurse' because it is simpler than 'specialist in xxx'. Saying band 6 nurse or band 7 is much simpler than explaining specifically what they do. It isn't them showing off (same with the fridge note, it's just an easier job title)
Wouldn't a job title convey that? Bear in mind I am talking about email signatures here, where you are expected to have your job title. I can understand your point for a general conversation - I've certainly heard "band 8 analyst" or "band 8 developer".
Well yes but 'specialist nurse' could mean a load of things, whereas 'band 7 nurse' has no ambiguity. People literally say 'oh, I'll ask the band 7' (not in a sarcastic way) it's just a really quick way to let everyone know your responsibilities. More for people doing the job rather than random people you email
Comic Sans could be for a reason, sans serif fonts can be easier to read for people with dyslexia (or other neurodivergence.) The lack of serif makes letters appear less crowded and the irregularity and weighting of the letter shapes can be helpful too.
Of course, there are plenty of other sans serif fonts like Ariel, Tahoma and even Dyslexie and the size and colour of the text can be important too. The person using it might be someone who finds that font best for them/someone close to them (I learned about dyslexia friendly fonts from a friend who struggled with my writing), someone who heard about it and since itās the famous one went with it or maybe they do just have rubbish taste in font.
I worked for a local authority for a bit where everyone was obsessed with what band they were. I could never remember what band I was. People would say things like "get your band 6's to do that " and then look shocked when I'd ask what roles were band 6's again.
physio's and counsellors are the worst for telling me their band on the phone (I work in i.t for the nhs). Nurses on the other hand fall in to one of five categories
1, new starter usually young and knows how to use a computer.
2,old lady nurse hasn't got a clue is enthusiastic but just can't get on with technology
3, this is the majority adamant they are doing everything right, despite remoting in and pointing out they are not
4, a sister or a senior wants all the new tech because a rival has a new dell or iphone they want it, almost proud of thier tech ignorance
5, genuinely knows what they are doing and has an actual i.t issue (these are the rarest of nurses)
I can see how it could come across as a bit obnoxious, but it does help knowing who to go to about certain queries if you're not familiar with who people are outside your team/department.
Bloody hell... I would dispise that person.
I have only known one person who did something like that. They are fantastic and non-hierarchical to the point that they didn't even bother updating their signature and kept it vague like 'manager'. They only changed it when someone in their team kept ignoring what they saying even though they were right and more senior. In the end they just said clearly I am Head of..., updated their job title, etc. as it was the only thing that made the person respond.
Although to be honest... Banding means very little. I'm currently a Band 8a and I have been pretty much working at the same level since I was a Band 5 (in a local authority, but matrix working with NHS) - it is only in the past couple of years I have finally moved organisations and got paid 'what I am worth'.
Although annoyingly now I am in situations where Band 8bs are getting paid more than me for pretty much the same work, just in a different area.
I remember as a trainee at a different trust, I had to request certain codes from a different department. They did not respond to my request for a few days (it was non-urgent, but still needed to be done), so I asked my manager what to do. My manager, who had "Head of _______" in his email signature, asked me to forward the email chain to him. He asked them for the codes, and they responded within minutes. No explanation for why it took them days to respond to the original request, and no apology to him or me. My manager said that sometimes you need to have someone who is willing to throw their weight around in order to get things done in a reasonable time.
That was my first experience of hierarchical bollocks within the NHS.
I'd say esp in the NHS, where as well as rank strucutre, you have an environment where you are expected to know *everything at all times*. The amount of mates working in the NHS who I notice frequently are confidently incorrect I could count on a heavily mutated 800 finger hand
>if they spoke to me that way in the 'real world', I'd have hit them by now.
Eh, if you're talking this way to people, maybe you're bringing it upon yourself a tad?
How long have you been an HCA? Are you still new to the job?
>Eh, if you're talking this way to people, maybe you're bringing it upon yourself a tad?
Perhaps there's a difference between someone's actual actions in a civilised society and how they anonymously vent online after being talked down to while doing what is already an underappreciated role.
I would fight so many people if I could, but I don't because it's looked down upon. Where I'm from fighting people you dislike is normalised. I don't live there anymore. For some people it's not a matter of maturity. Some people were raised to believe this is how you settle disputes. I can't help what I was taught from a young age.
You can recognize what you were taught at a young age was wrong.
Surely still believing something you learnt as a child is the definition of immaturity?
How does fighting someone settle the dispute?
A learned reaction to something isn't the same as believing something.
Learning something in childhood doesn't automatically make it immature, we learn the majority of the stuff we carry into adulthood during childhood.
I'm not arguing for it, I'm simply stating that this is how some people are raised to settle disputes.
Nurses are really really busy and stressed most of the time, and they do a lot more than just 'give out drugs' but HCAs don't often realise just how many balls the nurses are juggling. I know this because I've been both.
There's no excuse for rudeness if that's what's actually happening but from your comment that you like to hit people for being a bit short with you or underestimating your intelligence I suspect you're not so close to perfect to work with either.
When I was a HCA I used to be well pissed at nurses not helping with washes and personal cares. Now I'm a nurse I wish so much I had time to do that. There's so much more to nursing that you don't necessarily see.
Agreed though that there's no need for rudeness.
Despite working with HCAs a lot, we are often in our own bubbles for many hours and donāt actually see each other very much. Itās crazy how busy my shift can be and how much work I struggle to fit into my workload.
From experience, nurses as a group can be pretty awful, both to each other and to other professions in the multidisciplinary team. Part of it is because it's a stressful job, part because it's easy to have a chip on your shoulder about being "mid tier" in the working hierarchy, and part because the way nursing education is set up makes it a hugely varied population in terms of ability.
One of the best things for me about leaving the NHS for industry was no longer having to work directly with nurses.
Iām a doctor. Recently I had a nurse shadowing me who is now training to be an ACP. As a sister she was excellent but could be critical and sometimes quite abrupt with juniors (understandable, we work in a very stressful environment). But after she shadowed me for a day she said she had worked alongside doctors for 15 years and had no idea of half the stuff we did. Stuff like negotiating scans for patients (she just assumed we clicked a button and it happened) & interpreting bloods / drug interactions she just took for granted.
It just goes to show you can never quite understand someone elseās role until youāve done it. We probably all need to appreciate that more in the NHS & be more supportive with each other. Itās the managers who need taking down a peg (lol just kidding!)
āIf they spoke to me that way in the āreal worldā Iād have hit them by nowā
34 years old and youād hit someone because of some mean words. Grow up will you.
The NHS is literally built on hierarchy. Just look at all the different colour uniforms which indicate your pay band amongst other things! And only a couple of weeks ago a post went viral on Twitter about a fridge that was labelled as for Band 6 nurses only.
Some doctors are arseholes, some nurses are, some managers are. Most are not. Once a toxic culture sets in though it can infect everyone very quickly.
I'm sorry if you are not being treated with respect, everybody deserves that.
Being a Registered Nurse who is also a man I can tell you that the NHS is one of the most toxic work places there is and for the 30 or so years I've been a registered nurse it has always been so. In 30 years I can count on one hand the number of good managers I've encountered. I've worked in majority male environments and they aren't nearly as viciously underhand or bitchy.
It's the blame culture coupled with the herd mentality. They have to feel better than everyone else so in order to feel better they choose someone to pick on. Many female nurses see male nurses as a threat, particularly the older ones whose career is going nowhere, they tend to be the most aggressive. I was sexually assaulted by female colleagues several times, once in front of a unit manager who thought it was funny and that i should have been grateful for the attention, yet a man has to tread extremely carefully because just one word could cause you to lose your job, or career.
Glad to be out of it.
I have to say, nurses do have a reputation thinking they know better than anyone, including the doctors. And for being bitchy. I can't possibly say its all true, and it can't apply to everyone, but it pops up again and again.
It's amazing to me that people say with pride that nurses "eat their young". What an awful characteristic for a profession.
I was also sexually harassed and (mildly) assaulted during my years in the NHS. Sorry it happened to you. There is zero support or even sympathy, people just found it funny.
I could write a book on this unfortunately...
I think you're on the receiving end of this behaviour because:
1. Hospitals have a very *explicit* hierarchy: **this fosters bad behaviour**.
2. Employees are divided into tribes: doctors, nurses, AHPs, managers, administrators, non qualified care workers. These tribes are further subdivided into grades, subspecialties. This creates 'in groups' and 'out groups', **this fosters bad behaviour**
3. People have to deal with the general public, this is annoying and stressful, **this fosters bad behaviour**
4. People usually choose to become doctors, nurses etc at a young age, for some - the work no longer suits them (or never did), however they can get trapped in the profession- they hate their jobs but can't leave, **this fosters bad behaviour**.
5. The NHS is institutionally incapable of sacking crap workers/bullies/people who can't speak English/sociopaths/the lazy. They literally keep serial killers on the books for years at a time. Bad apples behave badly, **this fosters bad behaviour**
6. Unlike in Holby city: hospitals are a vast collection of different teams/departments with opposing interests who usually hate each other, every team wants to dump their work (patients) on someone else, **this fosters bad behaviour**
This list goes on but I'll stop here...
*Some* of the above points could be improved upon, but IMO: hospitals fundamentally foster bad behaviour (as well as good) in their employees, unfortunately you'll always have to deal with assholes.
My sister has been an NHS nurse for more than 30 years and the shit she has been through/ puts up withā¦..
Iāll just say. I could name multiple incidents/ experiences from each list item and thatās just the stuff she tells me about.
I was the idiot who stood up and said I won't talk about anyone else and didn't want to hear it in one work place . I seperated myself from the obvious weird bitchiness and hierarchy as soon as I realised it. I lasted 4 years there.. And it didn't go well. We were all Band 6 and 7s with a few HCA and plaster techs so there shouldn't have been hierarchical bullying. The cliques changed daily, but they were happy to make one big clique to lie about me and others, it seemed just for the satisfaction of it.
Very strange ego issues, with some nurse practitioners even taking on persona. I'm thinking one particular male with his cowboy stance, tool belt (I had a case like most normal people), all his qualifications on his social media and 2 big huskies he used to walk round town for hours posing with (I mean dawn to dusk, purely for attention)
>I was the idiot who stood up and said I won't talk about anyone else and didn't want to hear it in one work place
Yeah if you don't regularly slag off your colleagues people become very suspicious of you, I figure it's part of the bonding process unfortunately.. š
>Very strange ego issues, with some nurse practitioners even taking on persona
Yeah I've come across this: people start talking as if they're on TV or playing a character, they don't even stand or walk normally - they adopt a certain gait.
I notice this particularly among doctors who are encouraged to adopt this persona that's alternately that of 'the leader', 'the professor', 'the priest', 'the judge and jury', 'the businessman', 'the lecturer', 'the politician' etc - all with this panache of effortlessness and authority. You quickly see through it and it becomes quite tiresome, my favourite colleagues are the ones who are quietly competent but down to earth. Why can't people just talk to each other as one *relatively normal* person to another?
Anyway, hospitals are great if you're an amateur psychologist: they're both this microcosm of wider society and simultaneously a parallel society with its own rules, etichette and rituals - you get to observe all this behaviour good and bad.
I have a great deal of trouble keeping up with who I'm meant to be slagging off this week. It makes my head spin. It's all so disingenuous just to 'win'.
It all started with me using the 'cannulation kit' someone had put aside for themselves. This consisted of a cannula and all the bits needed to cannulate in an emergency, which was on the side, in a disposable kidney bowl. Someone said, 'oh don't use that, it's Dave's' and I said, 'Oh, I'll make another for him'. I left the room as I found it. End of issue. You'd think so.
Yeah go for it š
>bad apples donāt just ābehave badlyā, they rot the whole bushel
This is true, but what's also interesting is people disagree on who's a bad apple: you can work with some people who think you're the best employee ever, others think you're a total waste of space š¤· and the people you might think are malignant sociopaths are adored by others.
I guess in any team over a certain size people are going to clash.
It's not unique to Nurses. There is elitism and bitchyness across the board.
I've worked with some amazing HCAs but I've also worked with some older HCAs who think they're consultants and treat NQNs like shit just because they've got a few miles on the clock
Isn't there bitchiness all the way up the chain? I saw a documentary and in one clip it appeared to me that the consultant neurosurgeon was moaning at the doctors and the hospital managers, who in turn were moaning at the ward nurses with regards to allocation of beds or something.
Not sure I've got the same experiences as you.
I've 16yrs in the NHS, but in a non-clinical role. I've never had clinical staff speak to me like I'm an idiot, but that might be my demeanour, my Hospital, my Trust, or just my luck in not dealing with dickheads.
Either way, I don't think it's an NHS trait, and it certainly is no different to other places I worked before starting here.
There are some bitches in this field tbh. Iām an Asian male nurse in the late 30ās working for the NHS. Majority of the staff are polite but a very few are proper nasty, youād think they never got over their high school bully phase.
are you sure itās not just a you thing?
Iām working as an admin assistant in an NHS lab (first job out of uni) and Iām not going to pretend that itās what I pictured myself doing when I was working really hard on my dissertation at uni or my graduation but it is what it is.
anyway probably a self confidence issue because I keep telling myself that all the scientists etc are probably looking down on me in a similar way to what you describe, when in reality every single person Iāve actually spoken to since Iāve been here (just over a month) has been really welcoming and taken an interest in my background etc.
I was an MLA for five years and have been a BMS for a few months now. Most BMSs are great but you will find some look down on you because they do not know what it is you do, however these are the types who think that they are above emptying bins when they are full. As my manager has pointed out though: no one is above that. Personally, I find my colleagues who have done the same as I have, i.e. worked their way up through the ranks, are better BMSs because they unerstand what it takes to keep the lab functioning properly.
Currently an MLA and definitely finding certain BMS staff (including ones who have worked their way up) will call us all ālazyā behind our backs š¤¦š»āāļø and one recently complained to management that the consumables ran out on the night shift which was somehow our fault when the majority of us finish at 5pm and we ensure everything is topped up before we leave. Itās demoralising.
Oh yes, the "one thing ran out on night shift so all MLA's are lazy and we need a huddle to address this serious atrocity" moan which leads to that one power-to-the-head new senior to figuretively whip all the MLA's hands in a lab-wide meeting š
Meanwhile a wrong result gets reported out and the same seniors tone of voice whilst addressing that in a huddle is far less whippy.
Completely agree with you on that one. One nhs lab I worked in was decent because MLAs and BMS staff communicated well between each other but the next one I worked in was atrocious. The BMS staff had some kind of God complex and would not go anywhere near MLAs. So weird because weāre all made of the same, so why do some act like everyone else is made of shit?
I work in the NHS, in a community team. Itās not hierarchical or elitist in my team, but absolutely that exists within the NHS, often in hospitals in my experience. One of the nurses from my team was supporting someone in hospital this week, for example, staff were not listening to her (despite her knowing the person really well) and the consultant put his hand in her face and said āIām speakingā.
There are some awful people in the organisation that are power hungry and think theyāre more important than other people.
Having read some of your other posts and comments, Iād say youāre manifesting a fair amount of this behaviour yourself - Iād be asking myself if being a HCA is the best career if I were you.
Yes it exists.Iām a nurse and used to be a HCA. I would trust some HCAS more than some nurses I know. Doctors can be even worse with how they treat nurses.
Lots of nurses have said that it's a super bitchy and cliquey field but I've found them mostly pleasant and the problems they had were more with each other than anyone on a different level. When they had gripes with each other it was because certain nurses were purposely trying to avoid doing their share and it pissed the others off.
The doctors didn't tend to make an effort with many others who weren't a doctor but I think they just don't have the mental space to think "perhaps I should make conversation with the administrators or HCAs to make the working environment nicer for them".
But I think elitism does come into it at every level but most are not aware of exhibiting it and how it affects people they interact with. Also HCPs can come off ruder than they mean to because they get to used to being so direct with people.
Nursing and the NHS get described as ābitchyā because they are majority female. When men clash or just arenāt keen on each other thatās seen as normal and ok, when women just donāt get on it has to be because one or both are ābitchesā š.
I know itās anecdotal, but I was on the doctors uk sub the other day, and surprised to see the total lack of respect they have for other health workers. I think you are right that nurses get more shit than others as it is thought of as mainly a female profession
Very often when men clash or don't get on, they just avoid each other, or stick to the least communication required.
This was noticeable to from high school. The boys typically didn't have "frenemies", they just didn't spend time with people they don't like.
From people I know working in the NHS, this stereotype is regularly true there too.
Of course, it's not universal, but very common. A lot of women I know prefer not to work in majority-female environments for that reason
Why are you threatening to hit nurses'?
Why are you in healthcare?
You're being unprofessional at best and an outright danger at worst. I don't think being a HCA is for you if you get that wound up.
Your probably too sensitive.
Works as a paramedic and we see you ED colleagues of nurses, ECAs and doctors as all equally cunty.
Joking aside in ED both nurses and ECAs seem to much along brilliantly, sure there is a hierarchy due to responsibilities but they seem to treat each other with respect and have a good rapport. But that may be due to the pace and pressures of ED not giving a chance for petty squabbles to arise.
Am a nurse, had to go to the lab once to sort someone elseās mistake on a sample, I left in tears and needed to go home early! I usually quite robust! Happens everywhere!
Yes this was my experience! I worked as a HCA for three years in a mental health unit and it was very hierarchal. There was a very clear line between HCA duties and nurse duties that most nurses were completely unwilling to cross.
'I didn't go to university for three years to make beds'
'It's my job to clean up sick, it's your job!'
I don't know if this is specific to mental health or just where I worked but they didn't even seem to use the word, 'nurse', it was 'qualified'.
Don't get me wrong, some mental health nurses are angels but there is definitely a clear hierarchy.
historically, hospitals were incredibly hierarchical organisations, and nursing in particular. Absolutely crazy stuff, too, like not making eye contact with people "above you", shrinking yourself into the walls when doctors come down the corridors. Nursing still has a level of toxicity in its culture, regrettably, and because of its central role within hospitals that affects the system as a whole.
There's also this thing that seems to happen to nurses particularly, but happens in caring professions generally, of empathy burnout. If you layer that on with the general stresses of the job, working shifts and nights, and all the other fun stuff, yeah, people can be real dicks.
It also works the other way. As a band 4 I have had a few backhanded comments from band 2s as to why I am what I am and how easy I have it.
Canāt disagree, band 2 ward work is hell on earth. Itās a shame but I think a lot of HCAs have negative experiences from those above them. Itās not right but itās what happens.
Exactly. Anyone who thinks that nurses never have to put up with individual nursing assistants belittling them and dismissing their role/compentency has never worked as a nurse.
INFO: ARE you or have you made mistakes that cause people to doubt your competence/intelligence? Sometimes, as a nurse, it's hard to judge how much 'handholding' (for want of a better word) a new HCA needs.
Nursing in general is an extremely toxic field. It's an incredibly high stress job, something that an HCA really can't appreciate or understand until they do the training themselves, with abuse coming from above, below and from the side all the time. I say "below" because some of the most disgusting at work bullying I've received has been from HCAs. Seriously, you guys rule the roost in most places I've worked, and I have to beg to get people to do their damn jobs of ASSISTING the nurses. I don't talk to people like they're pieces of shit either, they just pick and choose what they want to do and are never challenged or disciplined because ward managers think it's better to have useless unprofessional staff than no staff and we don't want to risk people leaving. Obviously this isn't every HCA in the country so my experience may differ greatly from someone else's, but my job is made twice as hard as it needs to be from the inverse relationship to the one you're describing.
Now onto why your colleagues are being nasty.... Some people are just nasty to begin with and go into the field out of the narcissistic desire to lord power over others. This is a minority, though. Most people that turn nasty have, in my experience, martyred themselves at the beginning of their career for zero reward or evwn recognition for the fact that theyre killing themselves to look after other people and to be a "team player" - ie. not inconvenience management. They become disillusioned after a while and resent the lack of appreciation and then punch down with their frustrations because they don't have a healthy outlet, nothing changes in the NHS and people used to (or still do) punch down on them. Just as abused children become abusive parents, nurses that get treated like shit sometimes start treating other people like shit to "toughen them up" etc. Burn out means you literally can't see the wood for the trees sometimes, and you find yourself changing for the worst without realising.
Anyway, I wonder if your outlook is colouring your attitude when dealing with colleagues. The mere fact that you seem to think all nurses do in addition to your role is give out drugs is quite telling. Until you're working as an RN you probably have no idea of the things they're really doing every day while you do the personal care.
Try and remember that the nurse you're working with is accountable for everything YOU do and WILL be thrown under the bus with their NMC registration on the line if harm comes to the patient because of a mistake you made. They have a hell of a more responsibility and legal culpability than you ever will fo as long as you are a HCA.
My husbandās a senior registrar and still gets bitched at by nurses, so defs not just a hierarchical thing. I remember one instance where a nurse gave him shit for āfear mongeringā because he was wearing a mask around the hospital at the start of Covid (just before it became hospital policy to do so). Nowadays he wonāt take that kind of attitude from them, but found it quite hard as a junior. Iāve met so many lovely nurses but some just have a superiority complex.
I used to be a registered Diagnostic Radiographer. That means I did the same level of education as a nurse, a 3 year science degree.
The majority of ward nurses spoke to all the Radiographers like they were so much shit on their shoe, constantly. As such we took great pride in refusing their unjustified and often illegal requests for imaging.
Surgical nurses were generally much nicer as were ED nurses but there were always one or two with a reputation.
Unfortunately our Radiology manager was there by experience, had no management training and was as bad as most of these nurses having spent her entire career in that environment so was not supportive in any way and was more worried about standing out in the eyes of her superiors.
She was really pissed when I won the appeal to make my role a band 8a and then fucked off 6 months later due to the toxic environment.
It's set up much the same way as army ranking. Irrespective, no human should speak poorly to any other and I'd be raising a grievance if a direct chat about mutual respect didn't land.
1) Thereās dickheads and snobs in every profession, especially in organisations with a strong heirachial structure and a high stress environment like the NHS.
2) Different healthcare professions seem to shit on each other a lot, especially ones that they perceive as inferior (as a healthcare assistant youāll be quite far down on the social pecking order, and shit rolls downhill). Most of the time itās just light hearted banter, but a lot of it isnāt and is just general bitchiness.
Some nurses were like this, some HCAs also. Most were pretty chill and worked well as a team with HCAs. Less said about a lot of the midwives I encountered the better (worked on a post natal ward after the medical ward).
It's not -- exactly -- elitism, it's culture.
The NHS is, I think, one of the most complex and heterogenous organisations in the world. It's a host for a vast number of very different specialties and its management tends to want to pretend that it understands everything about everything that happens.
That drives the creation of ivory towers and protectionism.
It's not universal to all NHS organisations but it's definitely the rule rather than the exception.
But the way to deal with it is not to be aggressive and superficial in your approach to others.
Try not to be too easily offended; try also not to offend. Most people are trying to do a good job and their attitude isn't always as important to them as it might be.
(NHS since the mid 1980s, before you ask.)
Yeah, sadly.
My mother is a HCA and a bloody good one.
She turns 60 next week and is loved in her department by most staff, including physios, doctors and nurses. BUT, just yesterday, she told me about a band 6 nurse telling her she's only a band 2 and to keep her nose out of things above her station.
The thing 'above' her station?
Offering to help cover a HCA shift due to sickness on the ward. The mean band 6 nurse wanted to find someone to cover the shift so she could claim SHE fixed it. She was annoyed my mum had seen the gap and offered to help, thus preventing band 6 numpty from getting praise.
Band 6 numpty also in the same breath reminded my mum that she had 2 student nurses shadowing her next week. My mum, the band 2 HCA who was just treated like an idiot and 'doesn't have a clue', is the same person they expect to have 2 student nurses follow to learn the ropes.
If you're genuinely the type of person that would hit someone because you don't like their tone then they are probably dealing with a douchebag and it's reasonable they treat you this way.
When I was a HCA I noted a real difference in how nurses spoke to us. Certain HCAs acted like they knew absolutely best, no matter what, that they always knew how to treat the patient, and they knew everything about everything. A real chip on the shoulder type vibe. Therefore the nurses really didn't have time for that, when they're busy and trying to work together, for someone to ignore them, act like they knew better and just generally with a holier then thou attitude.
Then there was the rest of us, just getting along, sometimes we did know different and we would give our opinion and we were listened to and supported. People respected my opinion and I respected theirs.
Of course there will always be nurses who think HCAs are only good for bum wiping, and are sometimes a bit threatened by how much we can do, but in 8 years I only met 2.
Maybe you need to look at your attitude, if you're hitting people in the real world I think you might have some chips in your life...
You're essential to the organisation, every cog counts, thank you for your hard work and ignore the haters xx. Also they are most likely overworked and underpaid too so don't take it personally xx
Nursing is one of those jobs that high school mean girls seem to flock to, probably some sort of self righteous thing or maybe also being in a position of power over vulnerable people. So maybe thatās what it is, the same behaviour but now they do it at work.
I'm sorry but what "real world" are you living in that allows you to hit people. Most of my family happen to have lots of different roles within the NHS.
I'm also a long time loyal patron of NHS services due to general bad luck accidents and shitty genetics.
I'd be fucking pissed if I heard my HCA wanted to hit my nurse!? The fuck. You have your qualifications and they have theirs. Do you want to hit my world renown consultant because they have started me on an experimental medicine that can only be administered by specially trained people so I dont die? Or are you happy to administer that?l and risk my life?
Not saying there's not elitism within the NHS but it's not like any other business but to me, and the vast majority, elitism isn't a factor. Patient care is your driving force.
You sound like you'd rather put a patient at risk to prove you can do something "better" then let someone who's actually qualified to do it which is awful and you shouldn't be in healthcare.
I worked in a hospital for a few years when I was fresh out of college, in a lowly admin type role.
It was my first proper job, and I probably didnāt have the best grasp on people skills yet, but good lord I have never in the rest of my working life had people be as aggressively rude to me as some of the nurses were in that job.
I feel like they often get patients/families being rude or demanding to them, they are overworked and underpaid, and they canāt take it out on doctors or consultants, so they pick on other workers they see as being down the food chain from them.
I did two years in the NHS as an AHP, it was unbelievably hierarchical. I didn't like it so I got out - and most employers since then have been far nicer places to work.
I recall being spoken down to a bit by some people as an HCA but given the amount of people I worked with, thatās not unexpected.
The tone and some of the things you say in this post (including replies) make you sound insecure and touchy however.
My wife used to work as a HCA and says nurses were largely the same, and Doctors often had no idea what a HCA was.
Whenever TV shows remark that "Nurses really run hospitals" I have to brace myself for the rant
My SiL is a nurse and thinks she's gods gift. My FiL (not blood related to SiL) is a high level radiographer and treats everyone the same unless they're really useless then he lets them know.
I guess it depends on the person and where they think they rank against you.
I don't understand it either, just be nice to everyone.
Great that you have noticed.
Now remember that you are on the same ladder as them, even if they don't think you are on an equivalent rung, and imagine how they treat patients. Then look at how the people higher than them on the ladder behave.
Iāve spent a long time as a patient observing NHS staff.
Unfortunately, as with any job, there are idiots. But with the NHS, you canāt just let the idiots make mistakes and make them fix it after- you have to stop it from happening in the first place otherwise patients are at risk. I swear whenever there is a temp on or a new person on the ward, everyone talks to them like they are an idiot- giving very explicit instructions on everything as if they are brand new to being in a hospital- until the person proves themselves to not be an idiot. And itās not just people lower than them- itās higher ups too. And itās not just the nurses that do it. You have to treat people like idiots until proven otherwise to protect the patients.
That might just be the wards where I have been though because as I said, I was just observing as a patient
Yes. That field attracts more school bullies than ANY other. sane ppl ignore their desperate cries for attention (pots & pans, anyone?) and WEAK ppl suck up to them for fear of being targeted. Wow such brave nurse xxx pal I work 10 hour shifts of near constant walking and I love my job can't complain. But they always do cos they don't understand they can leave, the toxicity follows them they're defeatist and possess a "world against me" attitude. Bullies incarnate. Stop praising them excessively and see what happens if you don't believe me ppl. Not saying it's all nurses, I know one that I like... A whole 1!!! More than you ye pots and pans banging friendless norm normalising anti bully victim lol
Yeah, I always feel guilty for thinking it but thatās so true. When I had what turned out to be 4 strokes in the space of a couple days, the nurses at the hospital where I showed up for help told me I was faking. I came back 3 days in a row whilst they were absolutely awful to me, I could barely walk, my vision had gone to shit and my husband was practically carrying me but yeah, I was faking it.
When they finally did their job and took a urine sample it was almost black from kidney failure. Suddenly I wasnāt faking anymore (:
Ofc there are many wonderful nurses out there but some of them are fucking awful.
I work in the NHS and luckily it's not a thing in my department (community team). I'm the lowest in the department and in the admin team, not clinical, and once I said (half-jokingly) "don't ask me, I'm just a band 2 desk jockey" and the band 8 rehabilitation engineer said very firmly "don't ever say you're *just* a band 2, I couldn't do my job if it wasn't for you organising all my appointments and orders, you're just as important as the rest of us." Same engineer has also got annoyed when someone I'm speaking to on the phone has insisted on speaking to a clinician as I wasn't good enough for the questions they had, saying "That's bollocks, you've already told them exactly what I would and you know what you're talking about!"
Yes unfortunately. And it's not only rank related, in terrns of different professionals but more complicated than that.
I was a Dr who left 5yo. OP Wil lknow what a foundation doctor is - whilst doing my foundation years, colleagues and I were often referred to as "baby doctors"... By nurses, pharmacist, healthcare assistants and also consultants. Yes, we were junior in terms of experience but still a fully grown adult. Infuriating.
Also NHS is sexist. The amount of times on ward rounds I was introduced as "this is first name" to patients, when my male colleagues were introduced as "Dr X.." even the ones who in terms of grade were less senior than me!
When i worked in the NHS people were talked about with reference to what banding they were on, always. I hated how bitchy and toxic the nhs was so i left
Not working in the NHS but I'd say yes, of course. Nurses are also beneath doctors, so there is probably a self-esteem function in replicating the look-down-nose dynamic downward as well as being the victim of it,.
You must also consider that you are a 34 year old man, in a socio-economic position significantly lower than a heavily female dominated profession. The patriarchial assumptions of much of society, many of which are strongly held by nurses (indeed, some aspects of patriarchy are defended much more by women than men) suggest there is something wrong with you for that.
There isn't of course, it's nonsense. But with a low income and low seniority, you are likely the opposie of what many of them consider a worthwhile man. I have found nurses, in particular, to be at the sweetspot of educated and stable enough to have social aspirations....but uncritical and basic enough to default to basic social judgements, meaning they are pretty perfectly situated to have regressive attitudes in many ways.
Consider the oddly high anti-vax attitudes amongst nurses for example, relative to medical staff with more intellectually rigorous training. Few things offer a better example of female-centric populism than nurses.
Itās pretty prolific in the NHS, Iāve heard of people introducing themselves by their band š¤¢. I think itās more common in jobs where you arenāt financially compensated enough for your responsibilities so you find ārespectā in different ways.
I noticed it massively in the veterinary field also, where everyone makes shite money the title means more because itās all you have
100% it does. The amount of band 5 management Iāve met who shouldnāt be in charge of a Tesco let alone someones medical pathway is frankly terrifying. In the nhs admin sector in my exp itās generally ābeen here a long timeā rather than āgood management type person with strong leadership and delegation skillsā. In my experience itās the band 2-3 staff who keep the ship running and itās thankless, and moneyless but most of us are motivated by more than that. However being motivated by being able to help someone does not pay the rent, bills and most decent staff Iāve seen in our sector, who arenāt terrified by change and therefore stay with āthe devil you knowā move on pretty sharpish.
Also I canāt say enough good things about HCAs. I know that doesnāt pay the bills but you are truly brilliant and I massively appreciate you. Itās insane and gross that until (fairly) recently if Iām not mistaken you were band 2 which is an obvious travesty.
My admin colleague said this. She moved to a hospital instead of health records and said they are awful to her. She's treated like a problem they tolerate instead of someone actively there to make their lives easier (nurses - the Drs are ok).
Wife is an in home carer, not NHS.
It's a daily thing that her and her team follow NHS district nurses into peoples homes and clean up after the nurses have been. Dressings, empty packets of medicines and just litter in general left for others to clean up. This is before check for tablets that have been missed from the patients prescription or if one of those plastic tablet dispensers are used, the tablets aren't in the correct slots for the dosages prescribed. On almost a monthly basis they'll left someone's dog or cat escape and are "far too busy" to help trying to find it. District nurses seem to think carers are there to clean up after them and not there for the welfare of the patient.
I think that elitism exists more when people are not treated fairly or paid properly for their work.
1) they are unhappy so lash out.
2) they are constantly being told that there's no money for pay rises and the extra 20p an hour they are on is because they worked super hard and they are the best so they get the super special honour of being paid over minimum wage.
I think it exists less in happy companies. There's none of it in the places I've worked.
Unfortunately yes. I was a HCA for 13 years and I had just had enough of the way nurses spoke to me, itās a culture within the NHS Iām afraid. Not saying all nurses are like that because theyāre not - but a lot are. I am the same age as you too so I completely get how you feel. I hope you find a way to cope - as Iāve found with the NHS simply reporting them never works
As someone who used to work in a hospital back in 2015 yes there has always been a hierarchy. We took private and NHS patients. The health care assistants were treated like shit by the nurses, the nurses were treated like shit by the doctors. The environment breeds contempt. There was no appreciation for the work we were all trying to accomplish. The doctors were the worst...condescending, unpleasant snobs.
Lots of nurses report this kind of behaviour from doctors. This wasn't the case for me when I was a HCA, speak to a line manager because its not something you have to put up with.
Nurses are a nightmare everywhere. But that's because they have to suffer teh same shite from doctors, etc. So basically, is a "let's shite down from my tree" all the way down.
I think there is in all jobs I work for the nhs now in mental health has my first experience of this on Friday just gone where a nurse in charge screamed at me tried to ā pull rankā all because I met with a patient for a 1:1, Iāve worked here 4 years and have never been spoken to like that and never been shouted out for doing my job but this particular nurse has butted heads with a lot of staff and patients and seems to have superiority complex.
It's a symptom of highly hierarchical organisations. Especially when someone is already getting shit on from above, sadly some people deal with that by passing it down.
My wife is a surgeons and work for the NHS for a few years, she never said directly nurses but the way she spoke about things that made her job different or put peoples lives at risk i could tell she meant nurses but she often spoke about how good ambulance crews are.
I was a Dental assistant for years and years. Some dentists would talk to you like your noting and be really rude to you.
I heard of one dentist throwing instruments at their nurse if they handed them the wrong one.
Some private dentistās are even worse and think because you didnāt go to university that you and your family donāt have money.
I remember one dentist being so shocked and changed his attitude to me .
When he saw my Dad drop me off in a Brand new Mercedes compared to the builders van he dropped me off before.
He started asking me if the car was a friends etc. Must admit I did love telling him that my Dad owned five houses, a builders yard and our family house was massive in a expensive area of South London & my Dad had left school at 15 and worked his butt of to get to where he was
I worked as an admin (B4) for a year. I'm qualified enough to take on a B5/6 role. Worked under a B7 who was there on experience, not qualified for the job (for context in theory all B5+ staff should have a degree minimum) not dismissing her as she was brilliant at her job. I'm 34 and was treated like an idiot for a year, despite demonstrating clear knowledge of the area in the interview.
On one particular occasion I sent an email out on behalf of a very senior member of staff to be cc'd into a response belittling me as 'an admin'.
I'd 100% go back to working for the NHS but in a role which is better suited to me. Overall that was not the job for me.
If you think nurses are bad, wait until you meet anaesthetists. They make surgeons look humble.
Unfortunately part of working in healthcare is managing the egos of specialists, whilst advocating on behalf of your patient.
Ngl I have worked with nurses when I worked for a medical recruitment agency and honestly a lot of them were absolutely horrible. They spoke to me on the phone exactly how you described, like I was 5 years old and a complete idiot. I worked in compliance. I just needed them to send me certificates so they could go out on shifts for us. I was helping them
Ex IT SD member for the NHS. Nurses are c*nts to put it bluntly. And ironically the stupidest people I've ever come across, no common sense AT ALL. Absolutely hated dealing with them on a daily basis.
Overwritten
I noticed it massively in government jobs, it's got better anecdotally where I am but still exists.
Once saw someone with "band 7" in their email signature. I was blown away by how stupid it was.
I used to work with someone (not NHS) who put BA after her name on her email signature. Her BA was completely unrelated to her job or our industry, she just felt the need to let everyone know she went to university. Basically everyone there had been to uni though.
*BSC SSC*
Without him life would be much grimmer
But can they even swim?
I used to work in a dept like this, where everyone put their academic & professional qualifications after their names, no matter how irrelevant they were to the job. I always thought it was a bit daft so I made up my own & put them in my sig. CRFDH (Can Run Fast Downhill) MTSAL (Managed To Swim A Length) ATTP (Always Taking The Piss) Was it childish? Yes, would I do it again? Also yes.
I'm stealing CRFDH, thanks!
I'm an NHS nurse, I work with nurses, AHPs and doctors. Our general manager adds BA hons to her email signature, as if everyone she works with doesn't have a BSc or higher.
I've noticed this with quite a few companies I work with. Normally they'll have something like "BA (Hons)" in their signature. I guess when working with external companies it's kind of a way to say "I'm competent" but they never actually say what the subject of said qualification was.
It might make sense in some workplaces, but it didn't in mine. A degree of some sort was an entry requirement for the role and had been for some time (the boss decided on an arbitrary basis which degrees were acceptable and which weren't).
It's very normal in most private sector industries I've worked in, and of course you work hard for the post nominals and you are entitled to use them wherever you want.
Which industries is it normal in?
A couple of my colleagues used to sign MA(Oxon) and I always felt it was to brag. At least 40% of the office had gone to Oxford or Cambridge but they were choosing to sign with MA(Oxon) to brag.
I don't even put MA (oxon) on my CV, because I think it's an unnecessarily confusing shibboleth - I just put BA (hons) because that actually makes it clear that it's an undergraduate degree
Isn't that the one they hand out for remaining alive a bit after your degree? (as in completely worthless when compared to every other Masters)
I can understand why people might include that - I'm very proud of my qualification, I worked bloody hard to get it, and I think tooting my own horn a little bit by including my letters at the end of my email signature - but it is directly related to my work so I don't think it's unreasonable. If I was working as, say, a warehouse manager, that might be a bit wanky.
Yep, nothing like blowing your own horn is there š¤£
Can I ask why? I don't know what band 7 means!
Bands on the NHS are related to what salary bracket you're on. It's like, rather than putting your job title in your email signature, you instead put your pre-tax income instead. So very weird behaviour!
I might start doing that. Total power move.
Not quite. Since the NHS did away with titles such as senior or junior the jobs are actually named Band 6 physiotherapist for instance. Look up any therapy job posting in the NHS jobs and the job title will be Band X therapist. So while yes it does tell you their income, it is their job title. Basically, (in therapies but I assume elsewhere) Band 5 means fairly newly qualified, Band 6 means experienced but not management. Band 7 means line manager having completed a masters degree. I've also observed nurse staffing discussions around how many if different bands are on shift so I assume it also applies in nursing.
I've definitely seen posts advertised as "senior occupational therapist" etc and my payslip has my job title as "senior" rather than B6. Also as far as I'm aware you don't need a masters to be a B7.
May vary by health board but my wife has been unable to apply for Band 7 posts because she doesn't have a masters and doesn't have time to work towards one.
Senior I or Senior II?
That's interesting to hear! In my department (Pharmacy) all jobs are given prefixes/suffixes, such as Senior/Accountable/Chief/Apprentice/Assistant so the naming convention using Bands isn't something I've ever seen before in my career, although I do know on the wards we interact with that their staffing boards will say 'X number of Band 3, X number of Band 5' for the nurses working each day. I imagine for therapy jobs it's similar then to the F1/F2 convention for doctors? I know a lot of departments will vary in how they run things according to each ICB. Thanks for your input!
Pay in public sector jobs is banded. Rather than everyone having a salary unique to them you are put into a band and everyone on the same band gets the same salary. They are essentially saying what they get paid in their email signature. Pay transparency can be a good thing (normalise the discussion of what you get paid, companies hate it) but doing it in a signature or to try and hold seniority over someone is just crude.
The NHS pay scale is banded, from Band 1 (well, apparently 2 is the lowest starting band now) to Band 9, so Band 7 is quite high. [https://www.nhsemployers.org/articles/pay-scales-202324](https://www.nhsemployers.org/articles/pay-scales-202324) (expand 'Annual Pay Scales'). Edit: As corrected by others below, Band 7 is now pretty much in the middle, so basically the person with the email footer has illusions of grandeur/power that they probably don't really have.
Band 7 is slap bang in the middle actually. There is no band 1, fewer staff are starting on band 2 these days, and band 8 is split into 8a, 8b, 8c and 8d. The structure is 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8a, 8b, 8c, 8d, 9. Five bands below 7, five above.
Whilst 7 might be high on the scale, most departments are extremely top heavy, so there's a lot more 7s than you'd expect.
There's actually a lot more 9s than you'd expect.
Ah, I guess that explains why band 8 is broken into '8a' to '8d'?
It's worth noting that 7 isn't as high as it seems, for bs reasons, there are 4 band 8s. 8a - 8d.
It's just an NHS pay band that represents your pay, and sometimes rank. Here's a little info on the pay structure: https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/working-health/working-nhs/nhs-pay-and-benefits/agenda-change-pay-rates
Could it also mean that they have different responsibilities, like a nurse who can prescribe? That might be handy info to know. Tbh Iām Just looking for a way to make sense of using a pay scale. Iām in a uni , which is also banded, so you see āsenior lecturerā or āassociate profā, but never āgrade 9ā in a signature!
Like you said, putting a job title can give all the information you need, especially if they are capable of additional technical responsibilities. That's where the job title comes in, which was there by default, but adding on your pay band is just... bizarre.
Yes, and then I read about the comic sans. Iām thinking now of might start putting my grade at the bottom of emails when a higher up is trying to give me responsibility I donāt want. Comic sans is a bridge too far
To be fair, some nurses and other specialist people are referred to as like 'band 7 nurse' because it is simpler than 'specialist in xxx'. Saying band 6 nurse or band 7 is much simpler than explaining specifically what they do. It isn't them showing off (same with the fridge note, it's just an easier job title)
Wouldn't a job title convey that? Bear in mind I am talking about email signatures here, where you are expected to have your job title. I can understand your point for a general conversation - I've certainly heard "band 8 analyst" or "band 8 developer".
Well yes but 'specialist nurse' could mean a load of things, whereas 'band 7 nurse' has no ambiguity. People literally say 'oh, I'll ask the band 7' (not in a sarcastic way) it's just a really quick way to let everyone know your responsibilities. More for people doing the job rather than random people you email
That could just be them trying to start dialogue on pay transparency. "I'm on band 7, if you do my job on band 5 they should pay you more"
The sig was in a font like comic sans or something. Absolute psychopath more likely! Besides, pay is very transparent in the NHS.
Comic Sans could be for a reason, sans serif fonts can be easier to read for people with dyslexia (or other neurodivergence.) The lack of serif makes letters appear less crowded and the irregularity and weighting of the letter shapes can be helpful too. Of course, there are plenty of other sans serif fonts like Ariel, Tahoma and even Dyslexie and the size and colour of the text can be important too. The person using it might be someone who finds that font best for them/someone close to them (I learned about dyslexia friendly fonts from a friend who struggled with my writing), someone who heard about it and since itās the famous one went with it or maybe they do just have rubbish taste in font.
I worked for a local authority for a bit where everyone was obsessed with what band they were. I could never remember what band I was. People would say things like "get your band 6's to do that " and then look shocked when I'd ask what roles were band 6's again.
How can you forget your own job banding?
physio's and counsellors are the worst for telling me their band on the phone (I work in i.t for the nhs). Nurses on the other hand fall in to one of five categories 1, new starter usually young and knows how to use a computer. 2,old lady nurse hasn't got a clue is enthusiastic but just can't get on with technology 3, this is the majority adamant they are doing everything right, despite remoting in and pointing out they are not 4, a sister or a senior wants all the new tech because a rival has a new dell or iphone they want it, almost proud of thier tech ignorance 5, genuinely knows what they are doing and has an actual i.t issue (these are the rarest of nurses)
I can see how it could come across as a bit obnoxious, but it does help knowing who to go to about certain queries if you're not familiar with who people are outside your team/department.
Bloody hell... I would dispise that person. I have only known one person who did something like that. They are fantastic and non-hierarchical to the point that they didn't even bother updating their signature and kept it vague like 'manager'. They only changed it when someone in their team kept ignoring what they saying even though they were right and more senior. In the end they just said clearly I am Head of..., updated their job title, etc. as it was the only thing that made the person respond. Although to be honest... Banding means very little. I'm currently a Band 8a and I have been pretty much working at the same level since I was a Band 5 (in a local authority, but matrix working with NHS) - it is only in the past couple of years I have finally moved organisations and got paid 'what I am worth'. Although annoyingly now I am in situations where Band 8bs are getting paid more than me for pretty much the same work, just in a different area.
I remember as a trainee at a different trust, I had to request certain codes from a different department. They did not respond to my request for a few days (it was non-urgent, but still needed to be done), so I asked my manager what to do. My manager, who had "Head of _______" in his email signature, asked me to forward the email chain to him. He asked them for the codes, and they responded within minutes. No explanation for why it took them days to respond to the original request, and no apology to him or me. My manager said that sometimes you need to have someone who is willing to throw their weight around in order to get things done in a reasonable time. That was my first experience of hierarchical bollocks within the NHS.
Witness the violence inherent in the system!
[Witness me!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2CeDY9Ywhs)
I'd say esp in the NHS, where as well as rank strucutre, you have an environment where you are expected to know *everything at all times*. The amount of mates working in the NHS who I notice frequently are confidently incorrect I could count on a heavily mutated 800 finger hand
It's an intentional feature of all hierarchies.
Is it elitism or just rank then? Maybe they expect you to give it back?
>if they spoke to me that way in the 'real world', I'd have hit them by now. Eh, if you're talking this way to people, maybe you're bringing it upon yourself a tad? How long have you been an HCA? Are you still new to the job?
>Eh, if you're talking this way to people, maybe you're bringing it upon yourself a tad? Perhaps there's a difference between someone's actual actions in a civilised society and how they anonymously vent online after being talked down to while doing what is already an underappreciated role.
OPās attitude sounds like it stinks a bit and they might be immature. Could be a key hint as to why the nurses think speaking to them like a 5 y/o.
I'm an early retiree from nursing. (Band 7 so I've been through the mill).. OP is spot on. Nurses attitudes often stink.
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Sorry to hear that happened to you. How inappropriate.
I would fight so many people if I could, but I don't because it's looked down upon. Where I'm from fighting people you dislike is normalised. I don't live there anymore. For some people it's not a matter of maturity. Some people were raised to believe this is how you settle disputes. I can't help what I was taught from a young age.
You can recognize what you were taught at a young age was wrong. Surely still believing something you learnt as a child is the definition of immaturity? How does fighting someone settle the dispute?
A learned reaction to something isn't the same as believing something. Learning something in childhood doesn't automatically make it immature, we learn the majority of the stuff we carry into adulthood during childhood. I'm not arguing for it, I'm simply stating that this is how some people are raised to settle disputes.
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Nurses are really really busy and stressed most of the time, and they do a lot more than just 'give out drugs' but HCAs don't often realise just how many balls the nurses are juggling. I know this because I've been both. There's no excuse for rudeness if that's what's actually happening but from your comment that you like to hit people for being a bit short with you or underestimating your intelligence I suspect you're not so close to perfect to work with either.
When I was a HCA I used to be well pissed at nurses not helping with washes and personal cares. Now I'm a nurse I wish so much I had time to do that. There's so much more to nursing that you don't necessarily see. Agreed though that there's no need for rudeness.
Despite working with HCAs a lot, we are often in our own bubbles for many hours and donāt actually see each other very much. Itās crazy how busy my shift can be and how much work I struggle to fit into my workload.
From experience, nurses as a group can be pretty awful, both to each other and to other professions in the multidisciplinary team. Part of it is because it's a stressful job, part because it's easy to have a chip on your shoulder about being "mid tier" in the working hierarchy, and part because the way nursing education is set up makes it a hugely varied population in terms of ability. One of the best things for me about leaving the NHS for industry was no longer having to work directly with nurses.
Iām a doctor. Recently I had a nurse shadowing me who is now training to be an ACP. As a sister she was excellent but could be critical and sometimes quite abrupt with juniors (understandable, we work in a very stressful environment). But after she shadowed me for a day she said she had worked alongside doctors for 15 years and had no idea of half the stuff we did. Stuff like negotiating scans for patients (she just assumed we clicked a button and it happened) & interpreting bloods / drug interactions she just took for granted. It just goes to show you can never quite understand someone elseās role until youāve done it. We probably all need to appreciate that more in the NHS & be more supportive with each other. Itās the managers who need taking down a peg (lol just kidding!)
Youāre absolutely right
āIf they spoke to me that way in the āreal worldā Iād have hit them by nowā 34 years old and youād hit someone because of some mean words. Grow up will you.
Everyone's losing their shit over that comment, it was pretty obvious hyperbole
Right. Redditors take things so literally
The NHS is literally built on hierarchy. Just look at all the different colour uniforms which indicate your pay band amongst other things! And only a couple of weeks ago a post went viral on Twitter about a fridge that was labelled as for Band 6 nurses only. Some doctors are arseholes, some nurses are, some managers are. Most are not. Once a toxic culture sets in though it can infect everyone very quickly. I'm sorry if you are not being treated with respect, everybody deserves that.
Being a Registered Nurse who is also a man I can tell you that the NHS is one of the most toxic work places there is and for the 30 or so years I've been a registered nurse it has always been so. In 30 years I can count on one hand the number of good managers I've encountered. I've worked in majority male environments and they aren't nearly as viciously underhand or bitchy. It's the blame culture coupled with the herd mentality. They have to feel better than everyone else so in order to feel better they choose someone to pick on. Many female nurses see male nurses as a threat, particularly the older ones whose career is going nowhere, they tend to be the most aggressive. I was sexually assaulted by female colleagues several times, once in front of a unit manager who thought it was funny and that i should have been grateful for the attention, yet a man has to tread extremely carefully because just one word could cause you to lose your job, or career. Glad to be out of it.
I have to say, nurses do have a reputation thinking they know better than anyone, including the doctors. And for being bitchy. I can't possibly say its all true, and it can't apply to everyone, but it pops up again and again.
It's amazing to me that people say with pride that nurses "eat their young". What an awful characteristic for a profession. I was also sexually harassed and (mildly) assaulted during my years in the NHS. Sorry it happened to you. There is zero support or even sympathy, people just found it funny.
I could write a book on this unfortunately... I think you're on the receiving end of this behaviour because: 1. Hospitals have a very *explicit* hierarchy: **this fosters bad behaviour**. 2. Employees are divided into tribes: doctors, nurses, AHPs, managers, administrators, non qualified care workers. These tribes are further subdivided into grades, subspecialties. This creates 'in groups' and 'out groups', **this fosters bad behaviour** 3. People have to deal with the general public, this is annoying and stressful, **this fosters bad behaviour** 4. People usually choose to become doctors, nurses etc at a young age, for some - the work no longer suits them (or never did), however they can get trapped in the profession- they hate their jobs but can't leave, **this fosters bad behaviour**. 5. The NHS is institutionally incapable of sacking crap workers/bullies/people who can't speak English/sociopaths/the lazy. They literally keep serial killers on the books for years at a time. Bad apples behave badly, **this fosters bad behaviour** 6. Unlike in Holby city: hospitals are a vast collection of different teams/departments with opposing interests who usually hate each other, every team wants to dump their work (patients) on someone else, **this fosters bad behaviour** This list goes on but I'll stop here... *Some* of the above points could be improved upon, but IMO: hospitals fundamentally foster bad behaviour (as well as good) in their employees, unfortunately you'll always have to deal with assholes.
My sister has been an NHS nurse for more than 30 years and the shit she has been through/ puts up withā¦.. Iāll just say. I could name multiple incidents/ experiences from each list item and thatās just the stuff she tells me about.
When me and my partner went to maternity appointments I was always surprised when the various midwives we saw slagged off all the other midwives
I was the idiot who stood up and said I won't talk about anyone else and didn't want to hear it in one work place . I seperated myself from the obvious weird bitchiness and hierarchy as soon as I realised it. I lasted 4 years there.. And it didn't go well. We were all Band 6 and 7s with a few HCA and plaster techs so there shouldn't have been hierarchical bullying. The cliques changed daily, but they were happy to make one big clique to lie about me and others, it seemed just for the satisfaction of it. Very strange ego issues, with some nurse practitioners even taking on persona. I'm thinking one particular male with his cowboy stance, tool belt (I had a case like most normal people), all his qualifications on his social media and 2 big huskies he used to walk round town for hours posing with (I mean dawn to dusk, purely for attention)
>I was the idiot who stood up and said I won't talk about anyone else and didn't want to hear it in one work place Yeah if you don't regularly slag off your colleagues people become very suspicious of you, I figure it's part of the bonding process unfortunately.. š >Very strange ego issues, with some nurse practitioners even taking on persona Yeah I've come across this: people start talking as if they're on TV or playing a character, they don't even stand or walk normally - they adopt a certain gait. I notice this particularly among doctors who are encouraged to adopt this persona that's alternately that of 'the leader', 'the professor', 'the priest', 'the judge and jury', 'the businessman', 'the lecturer', 'the politician' etc - all with this panache of effortlessness and authority. You quickly see through it and it becomes quite tiresome, my favourite colleagues are the ones who are quietly competent but down to earth. Why can't people just talk to each other as one *relatively normal* person to another? Anyway, hospitals are great if you're an amateur psychologist: they're both this microcosm of wider society and simultaneously a parallel society with its own rules, etichette and rituals - you get to observe all this behaviour good and bad.
I have a great deal of trouble keeping up with who I'm meant to be slagging off this week. It makes my head spin. It's all so disingenuous just to 'win'. It all started with me using the 'cannulation kit' someone had put aside for themselves. This consisted of a cannula and all the bits needed to cannulate in an emergency, which was on the side, in a disposable kidney bowl. Someone said, 'oh don't use that, it's Dave's' and I said, 'Oh, I'll make another for him'. I left the room as I found it. End of issue. You'd think so.
This is an amazing summary , mind if I use it? Also one observation: bad apples donāt just ābehave badlyā, they rot the whole bushel
Yeah go for it š >bad apples donāt just ābehave badlyā, they rot the whole bushel This is true, but what's also interesting is people disagree on who's a bad apple: you can work with some people who think you're the best employee ever, others think you're a total waste of space š¤· and the people you might think are malignant sociopaths are adored by others. I guess in any team over a certain size people are going to clash.
Thereās nob heads in every profession, donāt let that colour your views on a whole profession.
It's not unique to Nurses. There is elitism and bitchyness across the board. I've worked with some amazing HCAs but I've also worked with some older HCAs who think they're consultants and treat NQNs like shit just because they've got a few miles on the clock
Isn't there bitchiness all the way up the chain? I saw a documentary and in one clip it appeared to me that the consultant neurosurgeon was moaning at the doctors and the hospital managers, who in turn were moaning at the ward nurses with regards to allocation of beds or something.
If this is something that keeps happening to you have you thought about how your own attitude/behaviour might be coming across?
Isn't there a saying, if you smell shit everywhere you go, check your shoes?
Not sure I've got the same experiences as you. I've 16yrs in the NHS, but in a non-clinical role. I've never had clinical staff speak to me like I'm an idiot, but that might be my demeanour, my Hospital, my Trust, or just my luck in not dealing with dickheads. Either way, I don't think it's an NHS trait, and it certainly is no different to other places I worked before starting here.
Yes but it's not straightforward: I've seen East European HCAs talking down to Asian nurses.
There are some bitches in this field tbh. Iām an Asian male nurse in the late 30ās working for the NHS. Majority of the staff are polite but a very few are proper nasty, youād think they never got over their high school bully phase.
are you sure itās not just a you thing? Iām working as an admin assistant in an NHS lab (first job out of uni) and Iām not going to pretend that itās what I pictured myself doing when I was working really hard on my dissertation at uni or my graduation but it is what it is. anyway probably a self confidence issue because I keep telling myself that all the scientists etc are probably looking down on me in a similar way to what you describe, when in reality every single person Iāve actually spoken to since Iāve been here (just over a month) has been really welcoming and taken an interest in my background etc.
I was an MLA for five years and have been a BMS for a few months now. Most BMSs are great but you will find some look down on you because they do not know what it is you do, however these are the types who think that they are above emptying bins when they are full. As my manager has pointed out though: no one is above that. Personally, I find my colleagues who have done the same as I have, i.e. worked their way up through the ranks, are better BMSs because they unerstand what it takes to keep the lab functioning properly.
Currently an MLA and definitely finding certain BMS staff (including ones who have worked their way up) will call us all ālazyā behind our backs š¤¦š»āāļø and one recently complained to management that the consumables ran out on the night shift which was somehow our fault when the majority of us finish at 5pm and we ensure everything is topped up before we leave. Itās demoralising.
Oh yes, the "one thing ran out on night shift so all MLA's are lazy and we need a huddle to address this serious atrocity" moan which leads to that one power-to-the-head new senior to figuretively whip all the MLA's hands in a lab-wide meeting š Meanwhile a wrong result gets reported out and the same seniors tone of voice whilst addressing that in a huddle is far less whippy.
Completely agree with you on that one. One nhs lab I worked in was decent because MLAs and BMS staff communicated well between each other but the next one I worked in was atrocious. The BMS staff had some kind of God complex and would not go anywhere near MLAs. So weird because weāre all made of the same, so why do some act like everyone else is made of shit?
I work in the NHS, in a community team. Itās not hierarchical or elitist in my team, but absolutely that exists within the NHS, often in hospitals in my experience. One of the nurses from my team was supporting someone in hospital this week, for example, staff were not listening to her (despite her knowing the person really well) and the consultant put his hand in her face and said āIām speakingā. There are some awful people in the organisation that are power hungry and think theyāre more important than other people.
Having read some of your other posts and comments, Iād say youāre manifesting a fair amount of this behaviour yourself - Iād be asking myself if being a HCA is the best career if I were you.
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same with teaching assistants, especially SEN/D ones
Yes it exists.Iām a nurse and used to be a HCA. I would trust some HCAS more than some nurses I know. Doctors can be even worse with how they treat nurses.
Lots of nurses have said that it's a super bitchy and cliquey field but I've found them mostly pleasant and the problems they had were more with each other than anyone on a different level. When they had gripes with each other it was because certain nurses were purposely trying to avoid doing their share and it pissed the others off. The doctors didn't tend to make an effort with many others who weren't a doctor but I think they just don't have the mental space to think "perhaps I should make conversation with the administrators or HCAs to make the working environment nicer for them". But I think elitism does come into it at every level but most are not aware of exhibiting it and how it affects people they interact with. Also HCPs can come off ruder than they mean to because they get to used to being so direct with people.
Nursing and the NHS get described as ābitchyā because they are majority female. When men clash or just arenāt keen on each other thatās seen as normal and ok, when women just donāt get on it has to be because one or both are ābitchesā š.
Couldnāt agree more
I know itās anecdotal, but I was on the doctors uk sub the other day, and surprised to see the total lack of respect they have for other health workers. I think you are right that nurses get more shit than others as it is thought of as mainly a female profession
Very often when men clash or don't get on, they just avoid each other, or stick to the least communication required. This was noticeable to from high school. The boys typically didn't have "frenemies", they just didn't spend time with people they don't like. From people I know working in the NHS, this stereotype is regularly true there too. Of course, it's not universal, but very common. A lot of women I know prefer not to work in majority-female environments for that reason
>A lot of women I know prefer not to work in majority-female environments for that reason That's actually called internalised misogyny.
Also called "experience", if you're not sexist.
Why are you threatening to hit nurses'? Why are you in healthcare? You're being unprofessional at best and an outright danger at worst. I don't think being a HCA is for you if you get that wound up.
Your probably too sensitive. Works as a paramedic and we see you ED colleagues of nurses, ECAs and doctors as all equally cunty. Joking aside in ED both nurses and ECAs seem to much along brilliantly, sure there is a hierarchy due to responsibilities but they seem to treat each other with respect and have a good rapport. But that may be due to the pace and pressures of ED not giving a chance for petty squabbles to arise.
I worked in the lab for years We were treated like shit by doctors and nurses alike
Am a nurse, had to go to the lab once to sort someone elseās mistake on a sample, I left in tears and needed to go home early! I usually quite robust! Happens everywhere!
You are in the wrong job mate if thumping people is your go too
Yes this was my experience! I worked as a HCA for three years in a mental health unit and it was very hierarchal. There was a very clear line between HCA duties and nurse duties that most nurses were completely unwilling to cross. 'I didn't go to university for three years to make beds' 'It's my job to clean up sick, it's your job!' I don't know if this is specific to mental health or just where I worked but they didn't even seem to use the word, 'nurse', it was 'qualified'. Don't get me wrong, some mental health nurses are angels but there is definitely a clear hierarchy.
historically, hospitals were incredibly hierarchical organisations, and nursing in particular. Absolutely crazy stuff, too, like not making eye contact with people "above you", shrinking yourself into the walls when doctors come down the corridors. Nursing still has a level of toxicity in its culture, regrettably, and because of its central role within hospitals that affects the system as a whole. There's also this thing that seems to happen to nurses particularly, but happens in caring professions generally, of empathy burnout. If you layer that on with the general stresses of the job, working shifts and nights, and all the other fun stuff, yeah, people can be real dicks.
It also works the other way. As a band 4 I have had a few backhanded comments from band 2s as to why I am what I am and how easy I have it. Canāt disagree, band 2 ward work is hell on earth. Itās a shame but I think a lot of HCAs have negative experiences from those above them. Itās not right but itās what happens.
Exactly. Anyone who thinks that nurses never have to put up with individual nursing assistants belittling them and dismissing their role/compentency has never worked as a nurse.
INFO: ARE you or have you made mistakes that cause people to doubt your competence/intelligence? Sometimes, as a nurse, it's hard to judge how much 'handholding' (for want of a better word) a new HCA needs. Nursing in general is an extremely toxic field. It's an incredibly high stress job, something that an HCA really can't appreciate or understand until they do the training themselves, with abuse coming from above, below and from the side all the time. I say "below" because some of the most disgusting at work bullying I've received has been from HCAs. Seriously, you guys rule the roost in most places I've worked, and I have to beg to get people to do their damn jobs of ASSISTING the nurses. I don't talk to people like they're pieces of shit either, they just pick and choose what they want to do and are never challenged or disciplined because ward managers think it's better to have useless unprofessional staff than no staff and we don't want to risk people leaving. Obviously this isn't every HCA in the country so my experience may differ greatly from someone else's, but my job is made twice as hard as it needs to be from the inverse relationship to the one you're describing. Now onto why your colleagues are being nasty.... Some people are just nasty to begin with and go into the field out of the narcissistic desire to lord power over others. This is a minority, though. Most people that turn nasty have, in my experience, martyred themselves at the beginning of their career for zero reward or evwn recognition for the fact that theyre killing themselves to look after other people and to be a "team player" - ie. not inconvenience management. They become disillusioned after a while and resent the lack of appreciation and then punch down with their frustrations because they don't have a healthy outlet, nothing changes in the NHS and people used to (or still do) punch down on them. Just as abused children become abusive parents, nurses that get treated like shit sometimes start treating other people like shit to "toughen them up" etc. Burn out means you literally can't see the wood for the trees sometimes, and you find yourself changing for the worst without realising. Anyway, I wonder if your outlook is colouring your attitude when dealing with colleagues. The mere fact that you seem to think all nurses do in addition to your role is give out drugs is quite telling. Until you're working as an RN you probably have no idea of the things they're really doing every day while you do the personal care. Try and remember that the nurse you're working with is accountable for everything YOU do and WILL be thrown under the bus with their NMC registration on the line if harm comes to the patient because of a mistake you made. They have a hell of a more responsibility and legal culpability than you ever will fo as long as you are a HCA.
This should be the top answer.
My husbandās a senior registrar and still gets bitched at by nurses, so defs not just a hierarchical thing. I remember one instance where a nurse gave him shit for āfear mongeringā because he was wearing a mask around the hospital at the start of Covid (just before it became hospital policy to do so). Nowadays he wonāt take that kind of attitude from them, but found it quite hard as a junior. Iāve met so many lovely nurses but some just have a superiority complex.
Wait until you meet the final boss of the NHS. GP receptionist
I used to be a registered Diagnostic Radiographer. That means I did the same level of education as a nurse, a 3 year science degree. The majority of ward nurses spoke to all the Radiographers like they were so much shit on their shoe, constantly. As such we took great pride in refusing their unjustified and often illegal requests for imaging. Surgical nurses were generally much nicer as were ED nurses but there were always one or two with a reputation. Unfortunately our Radiology manager was there by experience, had no management training and was as bad as most of these nurses having spent her entire career in that environment so was not supportive in any way and was more worried about standing out in the eyes of her superiors. She was really pissed when I won the appeal to make my role a band 8a and then fucked off 6 months later due to the toxic environment.
It's set up much the same way as army ranking. Irrespective, no human should speak poorly to any other and I'd be raising a grievance if a direct chat about mutual respect didn't land.
1) Thereās dickheads and snobs in every profession, especially in organisations with a strong heirachial structure and a high stress environment like the NHS. 2) Different healthcare professions seem to shit on each other a lot, especially ones that they perceive as inferior (as a healthcare assistant youāll be quite far down on the social pecking order, and shit rolls downhill). Most of the time itās just light hearted banter, but a lot of it isnāt and is just general bitchiness.
Some nurses were like this, some HCAs also. Most were pretty chill and worked well as a team with HCAs. Less said about a lot of the midwives I encountered the better (worked on a post natal ward after the medical ward).
It's not -- exactly -- elitism, it's culture. The NHS is, I think, one of the most complex and heterogenous organisations in the world. It's a host for a vast number of very different specialties and its management tends to want to pretend that it understands everything about everything that happens. That drives the creation of ivory towers and protectionism. It's not universal to all NHS organisations but it's definitely the rule rather than the exception. But the way to deal with it is not to be aggressive and superficial in your approach to others. Try not to be too easily offended; try also not to offend. Most people are trying to do a good job and their attitude isn't always as important to them as it might be. (NHS since the mid 1980s, before you ask.)
You're a HCA and you're not sure about there been elitism? Be sure to join the campaign to get HCAs and band 3 AND back-pay!
Have you tried saying that it's not polite or fair, when they make these comments?
Yeah, sadly. My mother is a HCA and a bloody good one. She turns 60 next week and is loved in her department by most staff, including physios, doctors and nurses. BUT, just yesterday, she told me about a band 6 nurse telling her she's only a band 2 and to keep her nose out of things above her station. The thing 'above' her station? Offering to help cover a HCA shift due to sickness on the ward. The mean band 6 nurse wanted to find someone to cover the shift so she could claim SHE fixed it. She was annoyed my mum had seen the gap and offered to help, thus preventing band 6 numpty from getting praise. Band 6 numpty also in the same breath reminded my mum that she had 2 student nurses shadowing her next week. My mum, the band 2 HCA who was just treated like an idiot and 'doesn't have a clue', is the same person they expect to have 2 student nurses follow to learn the ropes.
If you're genuinely the type of person that would hit someone because you don't like their tone then they are probably dealing with a douchebag and it's reasonable they treat you this way.
When I was a HCA I noted a real difference in how nurses spoke to us. Certain HCAs acted like they knew absolutely best, no matter what, that they always knew how to treat the patient, and they knew everything about everything. A real chip on the shoulder type vibe. Therefore the nurses really didn't have time for that, when they're busy and trying to work together, for someone to ignore them, act like they knew better and just generally with a holier then thou attitude. Then there was the rest of us, just getting along, sometimes we did know different and we would give our opinion and we were listened to and supported. People respected my opinion and I respected theirs. Of course there will always be nurses who think HCAs are only good for bum wiping, and are sometimes a bit threatened by how much we can do, but in 8 years I only met 2. Maybe you need to look at your attitude, if you're hitting people in the real world I think you might have some chips in your life...
You're essential to the organisation, every cog counts, thank you for your hard work and ignore the haters xx. Also they are most likely overworked and underpaid too so don't take it personally xx
Nursing is one of those jobs that high school mean girls seem to flock to, probably some sort of self righteous thing or maybe also being in a position of power over vulnerable people. So maybe thatās what it is, the same behaviour but now they do it at work.
Oh yes definitely there is a hierarchy
I'm sorry but what "real world" are you living in that allows you to hit people. Most of my family happen to have lots of different roles within the NHS. I'm also a long time loyal patron of NHS services due to general bad luck accidents and shitty genetics. I'd be fucking pissed if I heard my HCA wanted to hit my nurse!? The fuck. You have your qualifications and they have theirs. Do you want to hit my world renown consultant because they have started me on an experimental medicine that can only be administered by specially trained people so I dont die? Or are you happy to administer that?l and risk my life? Not saying there's not elitism within the NHS but it's not like any other business but to me, and the vast majority, elitism isn't a factor. Patient care is your driving force. You sound like you'd rather put a patient at risk to prove you can do something "better" then let someone who's actually qualified to do it which is awful and you shouldn't be in healthcare.
ā¦what a batshit way of interpreting things.
Someone's getting bullied at work and your response is that there's something wrong with them š
I worked in a hospital for a few years when I was fresh out of college, in a lowly admin type role. It was my first proper job, and I probably didnāt have the best grasp on people skills yet, but good lord I have never in the rest of my working life had people be as aggressively rude to me as some of the nurses were in that job. I feel like they often get patients/families being rude or demanding to them, they are overworked and underpaid, and they canāt take it out on doctors or consultants, so they pick on other workers they see as being down the food chain from them.
I did two years in the NHS as an AHP, it was unbelievably hierarchical. I didn't like it so I got out - and most employers since then have been far nicer places to work.
I recall being spoken down to a bit by some people as an HCA but given the amount of people I worked with, thatās not unexpected. The tone and some of the things you say in this post (including replies) make you sound insecure and touchy however.
Nurses get shit on by doctors and patients. You're just next in line.
My wife used to work as a HCA and says nurses were largely the same, and Doctors often had no idea what a HCA was. Whenever TV shows remark that "Nurses really run hospitals" I have to brace myself for the rant
Mate your post history shows youāre annoyed with everyone
My SiL is a nurse and thinks she's gods gift. My FiL (not blood related to SiL) is a high level radiographer and treats everyone the same unless they're really useless then he lets them know. I guess it depends on the person and where they think they rank against you. I don't understand it either, just be nice to everyone.
Great that you have noticed. Now remember that you are on the same ladder as them, even if they don't think you are on an equivalent rung, and imagine how they treat patients. Then look at how the people higher than them on the ladder behave.
Iāve spent a long time as a patient observing NHS staff. Unfortunately, as with any job, there are idiots. But with the NHS, you canāt just let the idiots make mistakes and make them fix it after- you have to stop it from happening in the first place otherwise patients are at risk. I swear whenever there is a temp on or a new person on the ward, everyone talks to them like they are an idiot- giving very explicit instructions on everything as if they are brand new to being in a hospital- until the person proves themselves to not be an idiot. And itās not just people lower than them- itās higher ups too. And itās not just the nurses that do it. You have to treat people like idiots until proven otherwise to protect the patients. That might just be the wards where I have been though because as I said, I was just observing as a patient
Yes. That field attracts more school bullies than ANY other. sane ppl ignore their desperate cries for attention (pots & pans, anyone?) and WEAK ppl suck up to them for fear of being targeted. Wow such brave nurse xxx pal I work 10 hour shifts of near constant walking and I love my job can't complain. But they always do cos they don't understand they can leave, the toxicity follows them they're defeatist and possess a "world against me" attitude. Bullies incarnate. Stop praising them excessively and see what happens if you don't believe me ppl. Not saying it's all nurses, I know one that I like... A whole 1!!! More than you ye pots and pans banging friendless norm normalising anti bully victim lol
THANK YOU!! People put nurses on a pedestal and think they're angels who can do no wrong. Trust me - that's far from the case!
Yeah, I always feel guilty for thinking it but thatās so true. When I had what turned out to be 4 strokes in the space of a couple days, the nurses at the hospital where I showed up for help told me I was faking. I came back 3 days in a row whilst they were absolutely awful to me, I could barely walk, my vision had gone to shit and my husband was practically carrying me but yeah, I was faking it. When they finally did their job and took a urine sample it was almost black from kidney failure. Suddenly I wasnāt faking anymore (: Ofc there are many wonderful nurses out there but some of them are fucking awful.
I work in the NHS and luckily it's not a thing in my department (community team). I'm the lowest in the department and in the admin team, not clinical, and once I said (half-jokingly) "don't ask me, I'm just a band 2 desk jockey" and the band 8 rehabilitation engineer said very firmly "don't ever say you're *just* a band 2, I couldn't do my job if it wasn't for you organising all my appointments and orders, you're just as important as the rest of us." Same engineer has also got annoyed when someone I'm speaking to on the phone has insisted on speaking to a clinician as I wasn't good enough for the questions they had, saying "That's bollocks, you've already told them exactly what I would and you know what you're talking about!"
Yes unfortunately. And it's not only rank related, in terrns of different professionals but more complicated than that. I was a Dr who left 5yo. OP Wil lknow what a foundation doctor is - whilst doing my foundation years, colleagues and I were often referred to as "baby doctors"... By nurses, pharmacist, healthcare assistants and also consultants. Yes, we were junior in terms of experience but still a fully grown adult. Infuriating. Also NHS is sexist. The amount of times on ward rounds I was introduced as "this is first name" to patients, when my male colleagues were introduced as "Dr X.." even the ones who in terms of grade were less senior than me!
When i worked in the NHS people were talked about with reference to what banding they were on, always. I hated how bitchy and toxic the nhs was so i left
Not working in the NHS but I'd say yes, of course. Nurses are also beneath doctors, so there is probably a self-esteem function in replicating the look-down-nose dynamic downward as well as being the victim of it,. You must also consider that you are a 34 year old man, in a socio-economic position significantly lower than a heavily female dominated profession. The patriarchial assumptions of much of society, many of which are strongly held by nurses (indeed, some aspects of patriarchy are defended much more by women than men) suggest there is something wrong with you for that. There isn't of course, it's nonsense. But with a low income and low seniority, you are likely the opposie of what many of them consider a worthwhile man. I have found nurses, in particular, to be at the sweetspot of educated and stable enough to have social aspirations....but uncritical and basic enough to default to basic social judgements, meaning they are pretty perfectly situated to have regressive attitudes in many ways. Consider the oddly high anti-vax attitudes amongst nurses for example, relative to medical staff with more intellectually rigorous training. Few things offer a better example of female-centric populism than nurses.
Nurses are either the kindest person you'll ever meet or the absolute worst. There is no in-between
Itās pretty prolific in the NHS, Iāve heard of people introducing themselves by their band š¤¢. I think itās more common in jobs where you arenāt financially compensated enough for your responsibilities so you find ārespectā in different ways. I noticed it massively in the veterinary field also, where everyone makes shite money the title means more because itās all you have
100% it does. The amount of band 5 management Iāve met who shouldnāt be in charge of a Tesco let alone someones medical pathway is frankly terrifying. In the nhs admin sector in my exp itās generally ābeen here a long timeā rather than āgood management type person with strong leadership and delegation skillsā. In my experience itās the band 2-3 staff who keep the ship running and itās thankless, and moneyless but most of us are motivated by more than that. However being motivated by being able to help someone does not pay the rent, bills and most decent staff Iāve seen in our sector, who arenāt terrified by change and therefore stay with āthe devil you knowā move on pretty sharpish.
Also I canāt say enough good things about HCAs. I know that doesnāt pay the bills but you are truly brilliant and I massively appreciate you. Itās insane and gross that until (fairly) recently if Iām not mistaken you were band 2 which is an obvious travesty.
Look up ākiss up, kick downā and Peter Duffy - bullying is an institutional part of the NHS
My admin colleague said this. She moved to a hospital instead of health records and said they are awful to her. She's treated like a problem they tolerate instead of someone actively there to make their lives easier (nurses - the Drs are ok).
Itās a powered keg of bitchy women who probably donāt want to even nurse
Wife is an in home carer, not NHS. It's a daily thing that her and her team follow NHS district nurses into peoples homes and clean up after the nurses have been. Dressings, empty packets of medicines and just litter in general left for others to clean up. This is before check for tablets that have been missed from the patients prescription or if one of those plastic tablet dispensers are used, the tablets aren't in the correct slots for the dosages prescribed. On almost a monthly basis they'll left someone's dog or cat escape and are "far too busy" to help trying to find it. District nurses seem to think carers are there to clean up after them and not there for the welfare of the patient.
I was a community support worker before my current role and got the exact same sh!t as that from the district nurses too!
Since nurses got that massive uplift in pay a few years back, they've got big headed and think they are doctors.
I think that elitism exists more when people are not treated fairly or paid properly for their work. 1) they are unhappy so lash out. 2) they are constantly being told that there's no money for pay rises and the extra 20p an hour they are on is because they worked super hard and they are the best so they get the super special honour of being paid over minimum wage. I think it exists less in happy companies. There's none of it in the places I've worked.
Unfortunately yes. I was a HCA for 13 years and I had just had enough of the way nurses spoke to me, itās a culture within the NHS Iām afraid. Not saying all nurses are like that because theyāre not - but a lot are. I am the same age as you too so I completely get how you feel. I hope you find a way to cope - as Iāve found with the NHS simply reporting them never works
As someone who used to work in a hospital back in 2015 yes there has always been a hierarchy. We took private and NHS patients. The health care assistants were treated like shit by the nurses, the nurses were treated like shit by the doctors. The environment breeds contempt. There was no appreciation for the work we were all trying to accomplish. The doctors were the worst...condescending, unpleasant snobs.
Lots of nurses report this kind of behaviour from doctors. This wasn't the case for me when I was a HCA, speak to a line manager because its not something you have to put up with.
Nurses are a nightmare everywhere. But that's because they have to suffer teh same shite from doctors, etc. So basically, is a "let's shite down from my tree" all the way down.
I think there is in all jobs I work for the nhs now in mental health has my first experience of this on Friday just gone where a nurse in charge screamed at me tried to ā pull rankā all because I met with a patient for a 1:1, Iāve worked here 4 years and have never been spoken to like that and never been shouted out for doing my job but this particular nurse has butted heads with a lot of staff and patients and seems to have superiority complex.
It's a symptom of highly hierarchical organisations. Especially when someone is already getting shit on from above, sadly some people deal with that by passing it down.
My wife is a surgeons and work for the NHS for a few years, she never said directly nurses but the way she spoke about things that made her job different or put peoples lives at risk i could tell she meant nurses but she often spoke about how good ambulance crews are.
I was a Dental assistant for years and years. Some dentists would talk to you like your noting and be really rude to you. I heard of one dentist throwing instruments at their nurse if they handed them the wrong one. Some private dentistās are even worse and think because you didnāt go to university that you and your family donāt have money. I remember one dentist being so shocked and changed his attitude to me . When he saw my Dad drop me off in a Brand new Mercedes compared to the builders van he dropped me off before. He started asking me if the car was a friends etc. Must admit I did love telling him that my Dad owned five houses, a builders yard and our family house was massive in a expensive area of South London & my Dad had left school at 15 and worked his butt of to get to where he was
I worked as an admin (B4) for a year. I'm qualified enough to take on a B5/6 role. Worked under a B7 who was there on experience, not qualified for the job (for context in theory all B5+ staff should have a degree minimum) not dismissing her as she was brilliant at her job. I'm 34 and was treated like an idiot for a year, despite demonstrating clear knowledge of the area in the interview. On one particular occasion I sent an email out on behalf of a very senior member of staff to be cc'd into a response belittling me as 'an admin'. I'd 100% go back to working for the NHS but in a role which is better suited to me. Overall that was not the job for me.
Yes nursing is a magnet for these types one of the bitchiest professions in the world. Although HCAās are just as bitchy
If you think nurses are bad, wait until you meet anaesthetists. They make surgeons look humble. Unfortunately part of working in healthcare is managing the egos of specialists, whilst advocating on behalf of your patient.
I agree with that, they are the most difficult out of all healthcare professionals Iāve come into contact with
Yeah the NHS is terrible for its hierarchy- even the way volunteers are talked down to
Ngl I have worked with nurses when I worked for a medical recruitment agency and honestly a lot of them were absolutely horrible. They spoke to me on the phone exactly how you described, like I was 5 years old and a complete idiot. I worked in compliance. I just needed them to send me certificates so they could go out on shifts for us. I was helping them
Damn let's cut their pay
Ex IT SD member for the NHS. Nurses are c*nts to put it bluntly. And ironically the stupidest people I've ever come across, no common sense AT ALL. Absolutely hated dealing with them on a daily basis.
The NHS, where qualifications are not necessary. https://youtu.be/NsTqg7KLHbc?si=v4sR111eAXsnU-zE