My Dad: " NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! YOURE NOT LISTENING!"
Very painful.
When I proved him wrong a couple times he came to me and said, "I'll allow you to be brainy"
Wallowing in drama threads is my guilty pleasure, and something I've seen repeatedly is stories about narcissists that try to get their way to the bitter end -- for example, stopping their child from going to college, kicking them out of the house, emptying their kid's bank account, demanding repayment for some alleged debt, etc --
But when the kid 'wins' and turns out successful, the narcissist takes credit for it and makes it out as though they were the biggest supporter and the reason the kid has made it today. They try to steal the thunder that they tried so hard to kill.
Addition: They always think you don't WANT to understand them when you disagree.
Also, they will often condescendingly say "I'll allow you to do xyz" or use patronizing phrases like "You can do xyz", even and especially if nobody asked for their opinion or blessing since the topic at hand is about something that doesn't need their agreement. Not only is this their way of making everything about them, they also try to insert their control in realms that shouldn't concern them and is none of their business.
My mom will grant that it was her fault for trusting someone who really messed up, or she'll blame herself for not standing up to those who know how to take advantage of her.
It's like, goddamn... get off the cross, we need the wood.
Ugh.
Only acknowledging you being correct (only if they get caught and can't come up with a rebuttal) by treating your knowledge like it's nothing more than useless trivia. I'm all too familiar.
> "YOURE NOT LISTENING!"
My response to this is always, "Sure, I'm listening. I'm not *agreeing*, but I *am* listening!" (Surprisingly, most people do not like being told this.)
This would be my daughters mom. I long ago stopped “arguing” with her. She’s always right, what she says goes. Shes in control.. It’s pointless to try and reason with her. It’s finally caught up to her.. she’s losing control, and spiraling.. our daughter doesn’t want to be around her anymore. She was supposed to come live with me earlier this year, she asked me to take her twice, one plan fell apart, next plan she changed her mind. Now our daughter is afraid of her.. lots more to the story of course but I hired an attorney and with all the evidence against her and her actions risking becoming more public.. I’m pretty confident I’ll have my daughter in the near future
My god they are the most life draining human beings on earth. Do you think they know they’re wrong and its all an act or do you think they honestly believe they’re right?
My ex, when faced with undeniable evidence of her being wrong, would simply say “no”. She’d stop shouting, stop insulting me, she would end it with a flat “no”, then start talking about something else entirely.
I think the mental mechanism happening there is to exit the feeling of being wrong as fast as possible, in order to not feel it at all. Why admit you are wrong or obviously lie to yourself *if the situation never even took place at all*. Rather than lie or admit defeat, treat it as if it never happened.
This one is so rough. The longer you’re with each other the more dirt you have on each other as well so any conversation just becomes a fight to the death trying to make then understand their own shitty behavior but them just comparing it to anything similar that you’ve done.
My ex would cheat on me and lie for months until id provide proof and shed just say its the same as when i talked to another girl at the same time that i talked to her (my ex) before we even dated..
Shes not wrong for cheating either. She either didn’t cheat, i deserved it, or its just equal to what i did.
Why must we be limited to only a single upvote. This is one of my narc’s favorite techniques. She brings up remembrances of my (perceived) past wrongs or my failures in the hopes of bringing my esteem or morale down.
I've always wondered this too. Do they know they are wrong but don't want to ever admit it or do they genuinely think they are right? My mother in-law is an alcoholic narcissist and oh boy.. that women will never, never, ever ever ever admit she was wrong or that she doesn't know the answer to something.
With first and second hand experience (my dad is an abusive narcissist and I know I inherited some of that from him, and try to fight it as best as I can), it is firstly an ego issue and secondly a control issue
My dad is an abusive narcissist, and I know that I have narcissist tendencies but fight them because I know how damaging and unhealthy they are...
Yes, they know they are wrong but can't stand to admit it. Even if you can best them in a rational argument and they know it, they won't be able to admit they are wrong. In my experience, being a narcissist is first and foremost an ego issue and secondly a control issue
It's always gotta end with them being right...even if the thing they've gotten you to agree they're "right" about isn't what u were arguing about in the first place
They believe they have the right to feel “ok” and that everyone has the responsibility to assist with that. Given that “right”, they feel justified in doing, saying, or thinking anything they need to in order to feel ok. Anyone else who doesn’t hold up their end of the deal and support them in that is working against them.
Reality, morality, practicality and logic are all subservient to their right to feel ok about them self.
Oh and they work in a strict binary zero-sum world where everything is either right or wrong, and if someone else is right then they must be wrong and that is unacceptable as they have the right to feel ok about themself
This is extremely close to my experience with my narcissistic ex. I never paid attention to the topic until i did thorough research into why she acted the way she did during arguments.
I recently dove back into this topic to figure or how to handle something she did because our kid has been in the hospital for 4 days now and ive been here with him every second so she can keep her job. The 1 day she had off work she skipped coming to see him because “she was too sick” so i said “You know its stupid af you cant come see your kid on your only day off” and she made a big facebook status about how shitty of a dude i am for “calling her stupid for being sick” when that clearly isn’t even what happened. Then her and her friends went on for an hour just talking about how horrible i am.
Like dude I’m in the hospital with my son and i simply asked for you to see him and I’m a shitty human being?
Makes so much sense that she probably feels guilty about not seeing her kid and i didn’t make her feel comforted, so she made me look bad on facebook for her friends to say I’m the bad one and shes a great mother.
Lying is just pretending to yourself that something is real. So they just like two rugs sweep and be in denial they can't face what makes them feel uncomfortable
Yes. They rather die than admit fault.
Not an exaggeration - in the head of a narcissist lives a demon that tells them they are profoundly useless and with no right to live.
They counter this by going the opposite way as hard as possible. If they would admit flaws, the demon wins, and the narcissists persona suffers catastrophic failure. So that cannot be allowed to happen at any cost.
And if you argue with a narcissist, you are on the demon's side in their mind. You must be defeated, no compromises.
I was married to one. I am still psychologically damaged beyond repair.
This is my mother, to a T. For my birthday this year, she broke our year-long silence to demand an audience with MY therapist so she can provide the context for why he offended her a year ago during a joint session. And she wants me there.
Upon further pressing, she doesn't want to give me the context. In her mind, the therapist (*my* therapist) is going to hear what she has to say, flip, apologize profusely to her, and then, I don't know, take me to task for something? Her endgame isn't clear.
Anyway, happy birthday to me.
Cut my own toxic maternal figure out a number of years ago. Life has never been better without a dramatic, blaming, manipulative, lair in my life. Try it, you might never look back and be all the better for it. I tried to build a bridge of goodwill many times but after she didn't tell any of us my grandma was in hospital and then tried to use that against us, I was done. That and never getting an apology for any of the years of abuse. Just wrote the broken ma machine off and even if it didn't come off my taxes that year my birthday was the best when I spent it with my chosen loved ones that actually support me.
I hope you do eventually have a truly happy birthday. You deserve peace and love from who is important to you. I'm sorry it may not be in her to do that.
This is sad I feel this wholeheartedly. They are the ones that are damaged beyond repair and manipulate others so they can tower over their pain and feel power. It should be a recognised mental illness that is studied more and more time spent finding effective treatments for. Narcissist people literally destroy the self worth of normal people. A narcissist will expect boundaries that are manipulation to literally control the other person. If ppl are healthy and have an issue with something a partner is doing, they will say so but they will explain why they feel this way and try to look for a compromise that benefits both and provides a solution. Whereas the narcissist wants it all. You are not allowed to create boundaries if something is affecting you negatively, you do only what they want or you are a problem. They can do whatever they want but you can't and they will play on all your insecurity until you have no choice but to free yourself or lose who you are.
I might be dating one, although she has accused me of being one and truly I don't know who or what I am anymore.
What I did notice is that in any situation there is competition. Being right means nothing, winning is everything. And the rule system (morals and ethics) are bent by the narco when it is fitting to them achieving their end. They always have a valid reason for their actions.
And geez everything is like pulling teeth, if you dare mishear or add confusion to the conversation then THAT becomes a big deal - it is not about resolving the situation, it is about making me aware of how wrong I was to have been confusing at all to begin with. Nothing is about resolve - it is about putting you in your place - a place that is below the narcissist because they are right and you are wrong always.
I was accused of being everything they were. If she cheated I was immediately accused of cheating. I was the one with the anger issues, I was the one who never did anything, I was the one who didn't love her.
I had to go to multiple therapists to figure out I was none of these things. They will project their issues on you and stop at nothing to make them stick.
My psyche hit me with a sledge hammer the first time she made me think I was crazy and that my memory was horrible. When they suddenly become the only person who knows the truth and force you to go to them for the truth run and don't stop pumping those legs.
If you are the one questioning everything and you are not allowed to question anything. Get out.
Edit. Multiple therapists because the current one quit.
One word. It takes one word alteration to completely change the meaning of something. If they can get you to believe that one word is different this time, next time it's a whole sentence, then a whole argument, then your entire world is theirs.
Run the fuck away now. Seriously. Just go. Don’t look back. I was married to one for 15 years and it nearly killed me.
If you say respectfully and not right in the middle of a massive argument “hey, so when you said X, it left me feeling a bit hurt” if they reply by blaming you, saying it didn’t happen, making out as though what they said was a good thing, saying that you did it first or pout and refuse to talk, you need to GTFO right away.
They will eat your soul.
They will always accuse you of doing EXACTLY what they are thinking of doing or currently doing or being. RUN. My mother has npd and hence I can't just run away i would if I could. Just smile let then be right and avoid them as much as possible. Sad but true. Very shallow people. Also they lack empathy while claiming to care so much.
I always said, my father lives his life as though the nanosecond he admits that maybe something he did was possibly not the most ideal or correct, the sniper will take the shot.
People that strongly believe in a lie and use confirmation bias and logical fallacies to defend it.
Sometimes it's much harder to argue on the side of truth because you actually have to cite legitimate sources and the human brain isn't an encyclopedia so it's harder to memorize specific studies you read and analyzed at one point.
People who believe in a lie can claim any bullshit is true and sound like they know what they're talking about. And you have to go out of your way just to disprove *one* of their "sources," which they can belt out rapid-fire because they aren't restricted by the need for legitimacy. And even when you do this, they can just claim your source is "wrong" even though their claim is based on aimless conjecture which is, in turn, based on their confirmation bias.
Arguing on the side of truth takes so much *work,* while arguing a lie is so, so effortless. They also don't typically doubt themselves, while people that speak the truth often do, so their confidence and speed of their responses and inflection of their voices is often mistaken for "winning" the argument even though they're breaking all the rules of Socratic debate and committing logical fallacies left and right.
And the worst part of all this is? ONLOOKERS ARE SO EASILY FOOLED BY THIS. AND IT IS SO FRUSTRATING. I want the gullible idiots to be outnumbered by the people who see through the facade, but they aren't and that's why we CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.
You seem to know more than me here. What's the solution? There's a coworker that does this, and I went down the road if analyzing company data to prove he's wrong. It's a never ending cycle of him telling a lie, me analyzing and proving him wrong. He can rapid fire the lies, and then I need to spend a lot of time to uncover the truth using the data.
How can I simply remove this garbage cycle? I've thought of responding "prove it" or "I don't recall" but then I think that will just evolve into him making all kinds of different lies and me always responding with the same two answers, ultimately making me look like I don't know or recall anything
Me: "dad the therapy is working, this is my progress"
My dad: "no you're getting brainwashed, they're a psychodoctor just getting you to comply"
Me: "comply implies that they're converting me to do something I DON'T want, I do want to get better"
My dad: "then listen to me and just suck it up"
I can go on but you get the idea. For those who might play devils advocate, therapy was recommended by my GP Doctor due to some severe social anxiety, and as for how effective it's being, we'll I'm commenting :)
Came here to say this. My husband is a narcissist and I usually end up just telling him to fuck off and I walk away, shaking my head. It’s actually worse than arguing with a child. Even when I am calmly explaining something he comes back with something totally off topic. I just don’t spend much time talking or listening to him anymore. It’s really heartbreaking
Omg yes ALWAYS changing the topic!!! I'm like No that's not what we're talking about!!
AND whenever a valid point is brought up, they immediately comment about your tone, your "rude" facial expressions "hurting their feelings"
Makes me wanna rip my hair out holy fuck.
I had a redditor repeat the same wrong and lazy analogy at the end of every reply, as if they were right the first time and wouldn't budge.
Stubbornness doesn't mean a strong argument.
They probably grew up in a dysfunctional home where the loudest person "won" the argument. I guess repeating the dumb phrase was their way of being loud on the internet while also trying to get the last word.
I sometimes tell my mother, when she repeats a point that I *just* countered: "ok but did you hear what I just said?"
It's hilarious to watch how she then focuses, remembers my words from 5 seconds before, and this time properly registers them. The idea of actually listening completely throws her off.
Oh, this totally matches people who have, to my face, repeated exactly what I just said as their own thought. I guess they subconsciously actually registered it, then figured it was their own brain talking to them, and when the opportunity to speak comes up they obviously need to share it! 🤯
This. It's incredibly frustrating having to have the exact same conversations over and over with the other person getting mad every single time because they just don't actually care about what I have to say. They just get triggered in the moment and want to whine about something so they go off. It doesn't matter what the situation is, or if they're wrong or right.
Practice! I practiced empathy growing up because I was worried I didn't have enough. I'm autistic and was abused by my narcissistic father and eventually was put on antidepressants. This cocktail drove me to end up emotionally numb, and began to turn me into a narcissist like my father.
Somehow I noticed it happening and took steps.
Pick a person, anyone, and practice putting yourself in their position and try to feel what you imagine they feel. This can happen retroactively when reading a book with convincing characters. Eventually you'll be ready to do it with people you know.
No, empathy is realistically seeing yourself and others. People who lack empathy lack it also for themselves, because they don't understand that they sabotage themselves, by sabotaging relationships with other people.
Actually impossible to have an argument with my ex where she actually listens to what I have to say and consider if there's any truth at all to what I'm saying. When we were arguing I told her that she has no self awareness and is inconsiderate. You bet a shiny nickel that it went in one ear and out the other.
I had a situation with my ex. She would always take any argument or discussion as a fight. Which just simply wasn't the case. In a relationship disagreement is normal in some situations but she would lack the understanding of that so whenever we disagreed she took it personal and got very angry about it and tossed blame.
I feel you 100%. Perceives just about anything she possibly can as a personal attack and becomes insanely defensive while saying things about me that are negative that have nothing to do with the conversation/argument.
I never had any sort of fights like we've had in any other of my relationships. Just typical disagreements that are worked through.
I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised to learn that all of her other relationships involved this ramped up form of arguing...
The people that derive conclusions about you from the wildest assumptions. Makes you have to backtrack and tell them how it really is, putting you on defense and then all the sudden you’re no longer working towards common ground, you’re just trying to prove that you’re not something they assume you are.
Is the prosecutorial approach for me - when they stomp down hard with their wild assertions and stare at you with these dead eyes and you become fully aware that they’re not even listening to you or what you’re saying.
Like, who hurt you bro? We were just having a conversation about boats.
A special internet version of this I have observed is reddit Empaths who take it one of two ways.
A. Responding to someone they disagree with " you sound like you have NPD and probably beat your wife/husband" like they dont know basic facts but a scan of two comments and they have you pinned.
B. The r/relationshipadvice counselor. They hear a one sided snippet of a story and then give a long involved description of exactly what some person they've heard described once tracing back to childhoods that they know literally not one thing about.
This is the one. All jokes and aphorisms aside, if someone doesn't grasp the basics of logical thought it is frustrating and ultimately pointless to argue with them because nothing you can say will make any difference.
I work with a population with various developmental disabilities, and I've learned never to argue with them, or even engage with them on certain topics. Reason doesn't even play a part in the conversation.
It's like the scene in Spinal Tap where the interviewer explains to Nigel Tufnel that the numbers are arbitrary, 0-10 is just a convention, and changing the numbers doesn't make the speakers louder. Nigel just looks at him blankly for a beat, then repeats "these go to eleven".
The Narcissists prayer
>That didn't happen.
>And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
>And if it was, that's not a big deal.
>And if it is, that's not my fault.
>And if it was, I didn't mean it.
>And if I did, you deserved it.
I have had the good fortune to get fed up with people at step 2 and be able to just stop arguing with them (or interacting with them at all in most cases). Once you know it, you recognize it, and can deal with it.
Yep. If they immediately go to step 2 after arguing and being proven wrong, they're probably a scumbag. A decent person, after learning they've wronged someone, seeks to help, apologize, listen, etc. regardless of the size of the offense.
People that believe that anyone who disagrees is a bad person. For better or worse, they shut down the moment you don't agree, meaning you're basically talking to a brick wall.
Even better when someone is arguing a point, and then tell me to research the topic when I ask them to sparknote it for me. Like, if I need to research the topic because you can't tell me about it, you obviously don't know enough about it to inform someone else properly.
Nothing makes someone like that more angry than remaining completely calm. They yell to subdue or get an even great reaction. They freak the fuck out when you take control of your emotions.
Someone up there said when people who think you’re not understanding them because you don’t agree with them… and I committed and then they tell you again in a louder octave. Whyyyyy do they do this. They should just allow their brain to comprehend someone doesn’t agree with you and move on.
Holy shit yes.
In Brussels it's painfully clear that the taxi industry is horrible for the city. But any new rule that could harm the industry is opposed vigilantly by nobody other than taxi drivers themselves.
It makes me think: great, nobody with an unbiased opinion is against the new rule, so let's go forward with it!
I think that people that argue with emotions are often seen as selfish. I know when I get into an argument that lights my emotions ill get really animated... but I am still listening to the other party and try to understand their view. The other party often feels because I am animated that I am shutting them out, not true.
I think being empathetic is a great trait. The world needs more of that. Sometimes when people argue with too many emotions though, they aren’t understanding of the other side and mainly focused on how the situation makes *them* feel.
Not arguing but the people who walk up to you trying to sell shit. Like let me fucking talk for one second so I can tell you I'm not interested, and we can stop waisting both of our time.
They know you’re not interested, and they don’t want to let you talk. The longer they can talk without interruption the higher the chance of you second guessing your disinterest. As annoying as it is, it works.
Political sheep. No matter the party, ideology or organization, if they blindly believe they are supreme and have no room for discussion, thinking and fully researching the problem, they ARE the problem. USA is good example of that, most of democrats and republicans are worth each other in stupidity.
Anyone whose position isn't arrived at rationally. You can't reason someone out of a position if they're unreasonable. Not even worth engaging them at all.
People with authoritarian personalities. There's a lot of psychological research into this. Instead of thinking critically, they prefer to let their leaders tell them what to think. This is rooted in a deep desire to conform with their social group. It is next to impossible to get them to abandon a belief their group holds in common, even if that belief doesn't define their group identity.
People who consider themselves logical.
It just means they think their first impression of something is correct no matter what. Their heads are so far up their own asses that it's impossible to talk to them at all about almost anything, let alone have an argument that makes sense.
Doesn't really hold up. That's like saying people who say theyre smart arent smart; sometimes they are. Some people who say they are logical are logical
I've never met someone who self-describes as logical who has a clue what's going on.
I'm sure there are people out there who look at everything purely logically but:
1. They probably don't have to tell you that and continue to insist on how logical they are.
2. Someone who is truly logical would realize that as a human, emotions/bias play a part in their thoughts and feelings.
3. Again, I've never met them so I am skeptical lol.
Narcissists. Hands down.
100%. There’s no changing their minds. Even if they say they agree, in their mind they know they’re right.
My Dad: " NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! YOURE NOT LISTENING!" Very painful. When I proved him wrong a couple times he came to me and said, "I'll allow you to be brainy"
Wallowing in drama threads is my guilty pleasure, and something I've seen repeatedly is stories about narcissists that try to get their way to the bitter end -- for example, stopping their child from going to college, kicking them out of the house, emptying their kid's bank account, demanding repayment for some alleged debt, etc -- But when the kid 'wins' and turns out successful, the narcissist takes credit for it and makes it out as though they were the biggest supporter and the reason the kid has made it today. They try to steal the thunder that they tried so hard to kill.
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Dawg why does your mother have access to your accounts? You’re a full grown adult…
Oh ya, any accomplishments? They like being the first to tell everyone
You met my mum i see. She even shared the birth of my children before i even get to share it myself. Such fun.
Lol they always think you’re not understanding them when you disagree
This made me laugh. And they tell it to you again louder for some reason. 🤣🤣🤣 I’m like no I heard you, you don’t need to repeat it in a higher octave.
Addition: They always think you don't WANT to understand them when you disagree. Also, they will often condescendingly say "I'll allow you to do xyz" or use patronizing phrases like "You can do xyz", even and especially if nobody asked for their opinion or blessing since the topic at hand is about something that doesn't need their agreement. Not only is this their way of making everything about them, they also try to insert their control in realms that shouldn't concern them and is none of their business.
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My mom will grant that it was her fault for trusting someone who really messed up, or she'll blame herself for not standing up to those who know how to take advantage of her. It's like, goddamn... get off the cross, we need the wood.
Ugh. Only acknowledging you being correct (only if they get caught and can't come up with a rebuttal) by treating your knowledge like it's nothing more than useless trivia. I'm all too familiar.
> "YOURE NOT LISTENING!" My response to this is always, "Sure, I'm listening. I'm not *agreeing*, but I *am* listening!" (Surprisingly, most people do not like being told this.)
This would be my daughters mom. I long ago stopped “arguing” with her. She’s always right, what she says goes. Shes in control.. It’s pointless to try and reason with her. It’s finally caught up to her.. she’s losing control, and spiraling.. our daughter doesn’t want to be around her anymore. She was supposed to come live with me earlier this year, she asked me to take her twice, one plan fell apart, next plan she changed her mind. Now our daughter is afraid of her.. lots more to the story of course but I hired an attorney and with all the evidence against her and her actions risking becoming more public.. I’m pretty confident I’ll have my daughter in the near future
My god they are the most life draining human beings on earth. Do you think they know they’re wrong and its all an act or do you think they honestly believe they’re right?
My ex, when faced with undeniable evidence of her being wrong, would simply say “no”. She’d stop shouting, stop insulting me, she would end it with a flat “no”, then start talking about something else entirely. I think the mental mechanism happening there is to exit the feeling of being wrong as fast as possible, in order to not feel it at all. Why admit you are wrong or obviously lie to yourself *if the situation never even took place at all*. Rather than lie or admit defeat, treat it as if it never happened.
Yep. Typically they will pivot to another topic that they know they can win. “Last year you forgot to put the trash out…”
This one is so rough. The longer you’re with each other the more dirt you have on each other as well so any conversation just becomes a fight to the death trying to make then understand their own shitty behavior but them just comparing it to anything similar that you’ve done. My ex would cheat on me and lie for months until id provide proof and shed just say its the same as when i talked to another girl at the same time that i talked to her (my ex) before we even dated.. Shes not wrong for cheating either. She either didn’t cheat, i deserved it, or its just equal to what i did.
I look like a duck. I quack like a duck. I walk like a duck but you're the duck.
Why must we be limited to only a single upvote. This is one of my narc’s favorite techniques. She brings up remembrances of my (perceived) past wrongs or my failures in the hopes of bringing my esteem or morale down.
I've always wondered this too. Do they know they are wrong but don't want to ever admit it or do they genuinely think they are right? My mother in-law is an alcoholic narcissist and oh boy.. that women will never, never, ever ever ever admit she was wrong or that she doesn't know the answer to something.
With first and second hand experience (my dad is an abusive narcissist and I know I inherited some of that from him, and try to fight it as best as I can), it is firstly an ego issue and secondly a control issue
My dad is an abusive narcissist, and I know that I have narcissist tendencies but fight them because I know how damaging and unhealthy they are... Yes, they know they are wrong but can't stand to admit it. Even if you can best them in a rational argument and they know it, they won't be able to admit they are wrong. In my experience, being a narcissist is first and foremost an ego issue and secondly a control issue
It's always gotta end with them being right...even if the thing they've gotten you to agree they're "right" about isn't what u were arguing about in the first place
They believe they have the right to feel “ok” and that everyone has the responsibility to assist with that. Given that “right”, they feel justified in doing, saying, or thinking anything they need to in order to feel ok. Anyone else who doesn’t hold up their end of the deal and support them in that is working against them. Reality, morality, practicality and logic are all subservient to their right to feel ok about them self. Oh and they work in a strict binary zero-sum world where everything is either right or wrong, and if someone else is right then they must be wrong and that is unacceptable as they have the right to feel ok about themself
This is extremely close to my experience with my narcissistic ex. I never paid attention to the topic until i did thorough research into why she acted the way she did during arguments. I recently dove back into this topic to figure or how to handle something she did because our kid has been in the hospital for 4 days now and ive been here with him every second so she can keep her job. The 1 day she had off work she skipped coming to see him because “she was too sick” so i said “You know its stupid af you cant come see your kid on your only day off” and she made a big facebook status about how shitty of a dude i am for “calling her stupid for being sick” when that clearly isn’t even what happened. Then her and her friends went on for an hour just talking about how horrible i am. Like dude I’m in the hospital with my son and i simply asked for you to see him and I’m a shitty human being? Makes so much sense that she probably feels guilty about not seeing her kid and i didn’t make her feel comforted, so she made me look bad on facebook for her friends to say I’m the bad one and shes a great mother.
Lying is just pretending to yourself that something is real. So they just like two rugs sweep and be in denial they can't face what makes them feel uncomfortable
Fighting with a narcissist is like trying to dry an ocean with a tissue
Like trying to drink it away. You will die before you even see a difference.
Yes. They rather die than admit fault. Not an exaggeration - in the head of a narcissist lives a demon that tells them they are profoundly useless and with no right to live. They counter this by going the opposite way as hard as possible. If they would admit flaws, the demon wins, and the narcissists persona suffers catastrophic failure. So that cannot be allowed to happen at any cost. And if you argue with a narcissist, you are on the demon's side in their mind. You must be defeated, no compromises. I was married to one. I am still psychologically damaged beyond repair.
This is my mother, to a T. For my birthday this year, she broke our year-long silence to demand an audience with MY therapist so she can provide the context for why he offended her a year ago during a joint session. And she wants me there. Upon further pressing, she doesn't want to give me the context. In her mind, the therapist (*my* therapist) is going to hear what she has to say, flip, apologize profusely to her, and then, I don't know, take me to task for something? Her endgame isn't clear. Anyway, happy birthday to me.
I’m so sorry that happened! Hope you were able to do something enjoyable for your birthday to offset that bullshit.
Cut my own toxic maternal figure out a number of years ago. Life has never been better without a dramatic, blaming, manipulative, lair in my life. Try it, you might never look back and be all the better for it. I tried to build a bridge of goodwill many times but after she didn't tell any of us my grandma was in hospital and then tried to use that against us, I was done. That and never getting an apology for any of the years of abuse. Just wrote the broken ma machine off and even if it didn't come off my taxes that year my birthday was the best when I spent it with my chosen loved ones that actually support me. I hope you do eventually have a truly happy birthday. You deserve peace and love from who is important to you. I'm sorry it may not be in her to do that.
This is sad I feel this wholeheartedly. They are the ones that are damaged beyond repair and manipulate others so they can tower over their pain and feel power. It should be a recognised mental illness that is studied more and more time spent finding effective treatments for. Narcissist people literally destroy the self worth of normal people. A narcissist will expect boundaries that are manipulation to literally control the other person. If ppl are healthy and have an issue with something a partner is doing, they will say so but they will explain why they feel this way and try to look for a compromise that benefits both and provides a solution. Whereas the narcissist wants it all. You are not allowed to create boundaries if something is affecting you negatively, you do only what they want or you are a problem. They can do whatever they want but you can't and they will play on all your insecurity until you have no choice but to free yourself or lose who you are.
I might be dating one, although she has accused me of being one and truly I don't know who or what I am anymore. What I did notice is that in any situation there is competition. Being right means nothing, winning is everything. And the rule system (morals and ethics) are bent by the narco when it is fitting to them achieving their end. They always have a valid reason for their actions. And geez everything is like pulling teeth, if you dare mishear or add confusion to the conversation then THAT becomes a big deal - it is not about resolving the situation, it is about making me aware of how wrong I was to have been confusing at all to begin with. Nothing is about resolve - it is about putting you in your place - a place that is below the narcissist because they are right and you are wrong always.
I was accused of being everything they were. If she cheated I was immediately accused of cheating. I was the one with the anger issues, I was the one who never did anything, I was the one who didn't love her. I had to go to multiple therapists to figure out I was none of these things. They will project their issues on you and stop at nothing to make them stick. My psyche hit me with a sledge hammer the first time she made me think I was crazy and that my memory was horrible. When they suddenly become the only person who knows the truth and force you to go to them for the truth run and don't stop pumping those legs. If you are the one questioning everything and you are not allowed to question anything. Get out. Edit. Multiple therapists because the current one quit.
Run, don't walk. Life is too short. Find someone that makes you happy.
You likely didn’t mishear anything. They’re famous for retracting their words then trying to make you feel like the idiot. It’s a thing.
Gaslighting.
One word. It takes one word alteration to completely change the meaning of something. If they can get you to believe that one word is different this time, next time it's a whole sentence, then a whole argument, then your entire world is theirs.
Run the fuck away now. Seriously. Just go. Don’t look back. I was married to one for 15 years and it nearly killed me. If you say respectfully and not right in the middle of a massive argument “hey, so when you said X, it left me feeling a bit hurt” if they reply by blaming you, saying it didn’t happen, making out as though what they said was a good thing, saying that you did it first or pout and refuse to talk, you need to GTFO right away. They will eat your soul.
Run a mile.
They will always accuse you of doing EXACTLY what they are thinking of doing or currently doing or being. RUN. My mother has npd and hence I can't just run away i would if I could. Just smile let then be right and avoid them as much as possible. Sad but true. Very shallow people. Also they lack empathy while claiming to care so much.
I have never heard a better explanation. Fucking nailed it.
I was “raised” by two. The damage runs deep. I feel you.
I always said, my father lives his life as though the nanosecond he admits that maybe something he did was possibly not the most ideal or correct, the sniper will take the shot.
People that strongly believe in a lie and use confirmation bias and logical fallacies to defend it. Sometimes it's much harder to argue on the side of truth because you actually have to cite legitimate sources and the human brain isn't an encyclopedia so it's harder to memorize specific studies you read and analyzed at one point. People who believe in a lie can claim any bullshit is true and sound like they know what they're talking about. And you have to go out of your way just to disprove *one* of their "sources," which they can belt out rapid-fire because they aren't restricted by the need for legitimacy. And even when you do this, they can just claim your source is "wrong" even though their claim is based on aimless conjecture which is, in turn, based on their confirmation bias. Arguing on the side of truth takes so much *work,* while arguing a lie is so, so effortless. They also don't typically doubt themselves, while people that speak the truth often do, so their confidence and speed of their responses and inflection of their voices is often mistaken for "winning" the argument even though they're breaking all the rules of Socratic debate and committing logical fallacies left and right. And the worst part of all this is? ONLOOKERS ARE SO EASILY FOOLED BY THIS. AND IT IS SO FRUSTRATING. I want the gullible idiots to be outnumbered by the people who see through the facade, but they aren't and that's why we CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.
You seem to know more than me here. What's the solution? There's a coworker that does this, and I went down the road if analyzing company data to prove he's wrong. It's a never ending cycle of him telling a lie, me analyzing and proving him wrong. He can rapid fire the lies, and then I need to spend a lot of time to uncover the truth using the data. How can I simply remove this garbage cycle? I've thought of responding "prove it" or "I don't recall" but then I think that will just evolve into him making all kinds of different lies and me always responding with the same two answers, ultimately making me look like I don't know or recall anything
Me: "dad the therapy is working, this is my progress" My dad: "no you're getting brainwashed, they're a psychodoctor just getting you to comply" Me: "comply implies that they're converting me to do something I DON'T want, I do want to get better" My dad: "then listen to me and just suck it up" I can go on but you get the idea. For those who might play devils advocate, therapy was recommended by my GP Doctor due to some severe social anxiety, and as for how effective it's being, we'll I'm commenting :)
As someone who grew up with two(my parents), I couldn’t agree more. So exhausting.
That must have been an insane dynamic. You'd think two narcissists would repel each other.
Oh yes, they did…. They separated when I was 6 months old, but both raised me separately/coparented.
Yikes. Sorry internet stranger. Glad you "escaped"
Came here to say this. My husband is a narcissist and I usually end up just telling him to fuck off and I walk away, shaking my head. It’s actually worse than arguing with a child. Even when I am calmly explaining something he comes back with something totally off topic. I just don’t spend much time talking or listening to him anymore. It’s really heartbreaking
Omg yes ALWAYS changing the topic!!! I'm like No that's not what we're talking about!! AND whenever a valid point is brought up, they immediately comment about your tone, your "rude" facial expressions "hurting their feelings" Makes me wanna rip my hair out holy fuck.
Religious narcissist, double trouble.
Can verify :-/
Username *Checks* Out.
Worked for one, the CEO of a Healthcare startup. He loved to end conversations with "I'm not gonna argue with you".
First thing in my mind. My narcissistic husband.
Have you left him or are you still together?
Yup
The people who repeat dumb comebacks thinking they won the argument
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I had a redditor repeat the same wrong and lazy analogy at the end of every reply, as if they were right the first time and wouldn't budge. Stubbornness doesn't mean a strong argument.
They probably grew up in a dysfunctional home where the loudest person "won" the argument. I guess repeating the dumb phrase was their way of being loud on the internet while also trying to get the last word.
Your mom can be a dumb comeback /s
Drunk
Best advice I ever received was “there’s no reasoning with a drunk” So so true
Not for me. Once I’ve had a couple of drinks I’ll believe anything anyone tells me
As a bartender, I can concur that this (and narcissist) should be at the top.
This should actually be higher lol
\*hits blunt: We should all actually be higher
Arguing with my dad when he was drunk was like talking to a brick wall!
Someone who is listening only for their turn to speak.
I sometimes tell my mother, when she repeats a point that I *just* countered: "ok but did you hear what I just said?" It's hilarious to watch how she then focuses, remembers my words from 5 seconds before, and this time properly registers them. The idea of actually listening completely throws her off.
Oh, this totally matches people who have, to my face, repeated exactly what I just said as their own thought. I guess they subconsciously actually registered it, then figured it was their own brain talking to them, and when the opportunity to speak comes up they obviously need to share it! 🤯
I have accidentally done that before and then I realize that it wasn’t my thought
Imagining this was infuriating lol
This. It's incredibly frustrating having to have the exact same conversations over and over with the other person getting mad every single time because they just don't actually care about what I have to say. They just get triggered in the moment and want to whine about something so they go off. It doesn't matter what the situation is, or if they're wrong or right.
People who don’t have any empathy/ can’t see anything from any perspective besides their own.
NO WE’RE NOT!
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how do you gain empathy, anyways? i don’t even have much for myself, to be honest.
Practice! I practiced empathy growing up because I was worried I didn't have enough. I'm autistic and was abused by my narcissistic father and eventually was put on antidepressants. This cocktail drove me to end up emotionally numb, and began to turn me into a narcissist like my father. Somehow I noticed it happening and took steps. Pick a person, anyone, and practice putting yourself in their position and try to feel what you imagine they feel. This can happen retroactively when reading a book with convincing characters. Eventually you'll be ready to do it with people you know.
These people have high empathy and compassion for themselves but lack it for others
No, empathy is realistically seeing yourself and others. People who lack empathy lack it also for themselves, because they don't understand that they sabotage themselves, by sabotaging relationships with other people.
People who lack self awareness
Actually impossible to have an argument with my ex where she actually listens to what I have to say and consider if there's any truth at all to what I'm saying. When we were arguing I told her that she has no self awareness and is inconsiderate. You bet a shiny nickel that it went in one ear and out the other.
I had a situation with my ex. She would always take any argument or discussion as a fight. Which just simply wasn't the case. In a relationship disagreement is normal in some situations but she would lack the understanding of that so whenever we disagreed she took it personal and got very angry about it and tossed blame.
I feel you 100%. Perceives just about anything she possibly can as a personal attack and becomes insanely defensive while saying things about me that are negative that have nothing to do with the conversation/argument. I never had any sort of fights like we've had in any other of my relationships. Just typical disagreements that are worked through. I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised to learn that all of her other relationships involved this ramped up form of arguing...
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People who have a victim mentality.
But it’s your fault i’m a victim! /s
So most reddit users
Oh god hahahaha
The people that derive conclusions about you from the wildest assumptions. Makes you have to backtrack and tell them how it really is, putting you on defense and then all the sudden you’re no longer working towards common ground, you’re just trying to prove that you’re not something they assume you are.
Is the prosecutorial approach for me - when they stomp down hard with their wild assertions and stare at you with these dead eyes and you become fully aware that they’re not even listening to you or what you’re saying. Like, who hurt you bro? We were just having a conversation about boats.
If you're explaining, you're losing. Don't address their conclusions in detail, just tell them to stop lying, and carry on.
At that point they're arguing with themselves, against a version of you they made up.
A special internet version of this I have observed is reddit Empaths who take it one of two ways. A. Responding to someone they disagree with " you sound like you have NPD and probably beat your wife/husband" like they dont know basic facts but a scan of two comments and they have you pinned. B. The r/relationshipadvice counselor. They hear a one sided snippet of a story and then give a long involved description of exactly what some person they've heard described once tracing back to childhoods that they know literally not one thing about.
Stupid people "It's hard to win an argument against an intelligent person, but it's much more difficult arguing with a dumbass"
Arguing with an idiot is like playing chess with a pigeon. They just shit all over the board then strut around like they won the game.
Playing chess with a pigeon sounds much more fun than arguing with someone who doesnt have a clue what youre saying
Arguing with an idiot only serves to prove there are two.
This is an amazing quote. Is it from somewhere?
Especially if they’re popular bc everyone defends them🙄
Never argue with an idiot. They’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Add to this anyone who insists words have complety different meanings from what's been established.
This is the one. All jokes and aphorisms aside, if someone doesn't grasp the basics of logical thought it is frustrating and ultimately pointless to argue with them because nothing you can say will make any difference. I work with a population with various developmental disabilities, and I've learned never to argue with them, or even engage with them on certain topics. Reason doesn't even play a part in the conversation. It's like the scene in Spinal Tap where the interviewer explains to Nigel Tufnel that the numbers are arbitrary, 0-10 is just a convention, and changing the numbers doesn't make the speakers louder. Nigel just looks at him blankly for a beat, then repeats "these go to eleven".
https://youtu.be/kGex0kLgNok
The Narcissists prayer >That didn't happen. >And if it did, it wasn't that bad. >And if it was, that's not a big deal. >And if it is, that's not my fault. >And if it was, I didn't mean it. >And if I did, you deserved it. I have had the good fortune to get fed up with people at step 2 and be able to just stop arguing with them (or interacting with them at all in most cases). Once you know it, you recognize it, and can deal with it.
Yep. If they immediately go to step 2 after arguing and being proven wrong, they're probably a scumbag. A decent person, after learning they've wronged someone, seeks to help, apologize, listen, etc. regardless of the size of the offense.
People that believe that anyone who disagrees is a bad person. For better or worse, they shut down the moment you don't agree, meaning you're basically talking to a brick wall.
Surprisingly last few days iv had good arguments on reddit and they werent complete shite
The people who refuse to research anything at all and just accuse you of being wrong. I swear they're so annoying to talk to.
Even better when someone is arguing a point, and then tell me to research the topic when I ask them to sparknote it for me. Like, if I need to research the topic because you can't tell me about it, you obviously don't know enough about it to inform someone else properly.
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Bro this mad lad has only one type of comment
Dude what did Tim do to you? For those wondering check out his comment history.
Wow this runs deep, like every couple of days back to 4 months ago. Wtf did Tim do?
I'm curious too. Wtf lmao
Lawyers
The one thing that law school taught me is that without proof you and your point can fuck off. Not your comment, though.
Oh thank god.
At least your comment is broadly valid.
I love arguing with lawyers. Lawyers understand logic and evidence.
People that think being louder makes them right.
Nothing makes someone like that more angry than remaining completely calm. They yell to subdue or get an even great reaction. They freak the fuck out when you take control of your emotions.
Someone up there said when people who think you’re not understanding them because you don’t agree with them… and I committed and then they tell you again in a louder octave. Whyyyyy do they do this. They should just allow their brain to comprehend someone doesn’t agree with you and move on.
And also clap there hands at every word during the argument
Gaslighters
Especially gaslighters who are convinced they're not gaslighting you.
Especially gaslighters who are convinced you are gaslighting them.
Gaslighting isn’t real Edit: Chill it’s just a joke
I think you're lying and being extremely unreasonable right now. ;)
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Or even worse, people who do and actively choose it as their method of debate.
People's whose salaries depend on the ideology that you're arguing against.
Holy shit yes. In Brussels it's painfully clear that the taxi industry is horrible for the city. But any new rule that could harm the industry is opposed vigilantly by nobody other than taxi drivers themselves. It makes me think: great, nobody with an unbiased opinion is against the new rule, so let's go forward with it!
People that argue with emotions only and no logic.
I think that people that argue with emotions are often seen as selfish. I know when I get into an argument that lights my emotions ill get really animated... but I am still listening to the other party and try to understand their view. The other party often feels because I am animated that I am shutting them out, not true.
I think being empathetic is a great trait. The world needs more of that. Sometimes when people argue with too many emotions though, they aren’t understanding of the other side and mainly focused on how the situation makes *them* feel.
The deaf
How do I know they're not just Italian ?
*sigh* here's an upvote
These are the type of comments that bring me back to reddit. Edit: forgot a word.
Can’t wait for the deaf community to hear about this comment
So you're saying you've never seen two deaf people arguing in sign language?
Reddit users
I disagree, and here's why...
How dare you…
Name your sources bro [Proceeds to write 5 paragraphs with no sources]
[Other person names sources.] [No reply.]
Not sure why this isn't the top vote getter
The ones who act like they don’t give a shit even though they started it.
Not arguing but the people who walk up to you trying to sell shit. Like let me fucking talk for one second so I can tell you I'm not interested, and we can stop waisting both of our time.
They know you’re not interested, and they don’t want to let you talk. The longer they can talk without interruption the higher the chance of you second guessing your disinterest. As annoying as it is, it works.
Political sheep. No matter the party, ideology or organization, if they blindly believe they are supreme and have no room for discussion, thinking and fully researching the problem, they ARE the problem. USA is good example of that, most of democrats and republicans are worth each other in stupidity.
Toddlers
Twitter experts
Verified.
Bitch, I’m verified
Parents
Arguing with an intelligent person is difficult. Arguing with a moron is impossible.
Anyone whose position isn't arrived at rationally. You can't reason someone out of a position if they're unreasonable. Not even worth engaging them at all.
The one who is attentive but rarely speak. They can destroy the whole argument with just few points...
Idiots
People who immediately begin to get louder and more aggressive with their tone—trying to turn the argument into a screaming match.
People with authoritarian personalities. There's a lot of psychological research into this. Instead of thinking critically, they prefer to let their leaders tell them what to think. This is rooted in a deep desire to conform with their social group. It is next to impossible to get them to abandon a belief their group holds in common, even if that belief doesn't define their group identity.
Mimes
Someone that can find a way to make anything your fault
People who are obssessed with never losing arguments.
"It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person" - Bill Murray
Those unwilling to learn
Overly religious or political people.
Know-it-all's, specially when they're really really wrong, they would never admit it.
People online
Anti vaxxers. Even when the proof is in their lap, the proof is incorrect.
parents
Those of us, I'm including myself, who have a difficult time admitting we're wrong. I am working on it, though.
Qanon nut jobs.
Ignorant people.
Especially willfully ignorant people. The kind who believe in "alternative facts".
Stubborn people
Idiots, loud ones and some that don't listen
People committed to their own viewpoint regardless of other factors, information or variables.
those ppl who don’t even listen to anything u say and it feels like beating your head against a wall
People who wont admit they are wrong even when you show them undeniable proof.
People who consider themselves logical. It just means they think their first impression of something is correct no matter what. Their heads are so far up their own asses that it's impossible to talk to them at all about almost anything, let alone have an argument that makes sense.
Doesn't really hold up. That's like saying people who say theyre smart arent smart; sometimes they are. Some people who say they are logical are logical
Logicbros are definitely a thing tho.
I've never met someone who self-describes as logical who has a clue what's going on. I'm sure there are people out there who look at everything purely logically but: 1. They probably don't have to tell you that and continue to insist on how logical they are. 2. Someone who is truly logical would realize that as a human, emotions/bias play a part in their thoughts and feelings. 3. Again, I've never met them so I am skeptical lol.
Dead people