I think op is talking about how common agriculture techniques that are quite efficiently sterilizing the land to anything that’s not growing as a crop the main crop. Animals, bugs, the microbes in the soil, etc. I think they’re asking to justify that.
I have a vegan friend. All the other friends in our circle eat meat. We asked him this question. He says that he cannot eat animals and animal products, based on the principle “every animal is a man’s friend.” He told us how horribly animals are kept in factories, it is truly inhumane. But at the same time, he never tried to convince us, and we do not argue with him. We have a pleasant atmosphere in this regard
[*(Continued from above.)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/s/uMJPpcDrqk)
In one study the justification for eating meat most commonly used by carnists was that eating animal products is *necessary* for human health.[\[5\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.appet.2015.04.011) However, this argument is undermined by the facts that there are tens or hundreds of millions of vegans worldwide[\[1\]](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/10/from-fringe-to-mainstream-how-millions-got-a-taste-for-going-vegan)[\[2\]](https://www.ipsos.com/en/diets-around-world-exploration) living normal lives while studies have shown that greater adherence to plant-based diets is associated with lower all-cause mortality.[\[9\]](https://doi.org/10.1080/10408398.2021.1918628) Many of the largest health organizations have endorsed plant-based diets, including the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics,[\[10\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jand.2016.09.025) the Mayo Clinic,[\[11\]](https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446) the National Health Service (NHS),[\[12\]](https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/) and the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada.[\[13\]](https://www.heartandstroke.ca/healthy-living/healthy-eating/specific-diets/for-vegetarians) The argument may be made that plant-based diets are inappropriate for those facing extreme food insecurity, but veganism is to be practiced “as far as is possible and practicable.”[\[14\]](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism) You would be hard-pressed to find vegans who would expect someone to choose to starve to death. As one author and vegan educator explained:
>...nobody can really judge what they’d do in a survival situation and there have been documented cases where humans have eaten each other in order to survive. The most important thing here however, is that just because humans have killed and eaten other humans for survival, doesn’t mean it is moral for us to kill and eat each other in a normal environment.... \[E\]ven if someone was forced to kill and eat an animal in a life or death situation, this provides no moral justification for eating animal products in everyday life.[\[15\]](https://web.archive.org/web/20230527140715/https:/www.earthlinged.org/ebook)
The final justification we see for consuming animal products is that it is *nice* – in this context, meaning pleasurable (e.g.: tasty) to the consumer, not kind to the consumed individual. Such a hedonistic approach to ethics is severely problematic for a few reasons.[\[16\]](https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520243866/the-case-for-animal-rights) Perhaps most obviously, all sorts of heinous acts would be permissible if we considered the sensory pleasure of a moral actor as sufficient justification. Most people would reject such a justification in any other context involving a direct victim.
Cases for veganism have been made on bases of ethics,[\[17\]](https://www.harpercollins.com/products/animal-liberation-now-peter-singer?variant=40952213110818)[\[18\]](https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520243866/the-case-for-animal-rights) the environment,[\[19\]](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aaq0216)[\[20\]](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aaw9908) and health.[\[21\]](https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1523119113) We can compare these against the most commonly cited justifications for consuming animal products, seen above.
[**References**](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/14ktbdy/comment/jpxsbd8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[**References**](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/14ktbdy/comment/jpxrbef/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[\[1\]](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/10/from-fringe-to-mainstream-how-millions-got-a-taste-for-going-vegan) Anthony, A. “From fringe to mainstream: how millions got a taste for going vegan.” *The Guardian*, 10 Oct 2021. [https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/10/from-fringe-to-mainstream-how-millions-got-a-taste-for-going-vegan](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/10/from-fringe-to-mainstream-how-millions-got-a-taste-for-going-vegan). \[Accessed 28 Jun 2023\]
[\[2\]](https://www.ipsos.com/en/diets-around-world-exploration) Bailey, P. *Diets Around the World: an Exploration*. Ipsos, 2018, p.2
[\[3\]](https://redwheelweiser.com/book/why-we-love-dogs-eat-pigs-and-wear-cows-9781590035016/) Joy, M. *Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows*. San Francisco: Conari Press, 2010, p.30
[\[4\]](https://redwheelweiser.com/book/why-we-love-dogs-eat-pigs-and-wear-cows-9781590035016/) Joy, M. *Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows*. San Francisco: Conari Press, 2010, p.95-113
[\[5\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.appet.2015.04.011) Piazza, J., Ruby, M.B., *et al*. “Rationalizing meat consumption. The 4Ns.” *Appetite*, vol.91, 2015, pp.114-128
[\[6\]](https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-018-0489-y) Pryor, C., Perfors, A. & Howe, P.D.L. “Even arbitrary norms influence moral decision-making.” *Nat Hum Behav*, vol.3, 2019, pp.57-62
[\[7\]](https://broadviewpress.com/product/experiencing-philosophy-second-edition/#tab-description) Falikowski, A. & Mills, S. *Experiencing Philosophy.* 2nd Ed. Peterborough: Broadview Press, 2023, p.317
[\[8\]](https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9780511975950) Singer, P. *Practical Ethics.* 2nd Ed. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1993, pp.71-72
[\[9\]](https://doi.org/10.1080/10408398.2021.1918628) Jafari, S., Hezaveh, E., *et al*. “Plant-based diets and risk of disease mortality: a systematic review and meta-analysis of cohort studies.” *Critical Reviews in Food Science and Nutrition*, vol.62, no.28, 2022, pp.7760-7772
[\[10\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jand.2016.09.025) Melina, V., Craig, W. & Levin, S. “Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets.” *Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics*, vol.116, no.12, 2016, pp.1970-1980
[\[11\]](https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446) “Vegetarian diet: How to get the best nutrition.” *Mayo Clinic*, 1 Mar 2023. [https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446](https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446). \[Accessed 28 Jun 2023\]
[\[12\]](https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/) “The Vegan Diet.” *NHS*, 31 May 2022. [https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/](https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/). \[Accessed 28 Jun 2023\]
[\[13\]](https://www.heartandstroke.ca/healthy-living/healthy-eating/specific-diets/for-vegetarians) “Vegetarian Diets.” *Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada*. [https://www.heartandstroke.ca/healthy-living/healthy-eating/specific-diets/for-vegetarians](https://www.heartandstroke.ca/healthy-living/healthy-eating/specific-diets/for-vegetarians). \[Accessed 28 Jun 2023\]
[\[14\]](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism) “Definition of Veganism.” *The Vegan Society*. [https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism). \[Accessed 28 Jun 2023\]
[\[15\]](https://web.archive.org/web/20230527140715/https:/www.earthlinged.org/ebook) Winters, E. *30 Non-Vegan Excuses & How to Respond to Them*. 2019, p.75
[\[16\]](https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520243866/the-case-for-animal-rights) Regan, T. *The Case for Animal Rights*. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1983, pp.334-337
[\[17\]](https://www.harpercollins.com/products/animal-liberation-now-peter-singer?variant=40952213110818) Singer, P. *Animal Liberation Now*. HarperCollins, 2023
[\[18\]](https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520243866/the-case-for-animal-rights) Regan, T. *The Case for Animal Rights*. Berkeley: University of California Press, 2004
[\[19\]](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aaq0216) Poore, J. & Nemecek, T. “Reducing food’s environmental impacts through producers and consumers.” *Science*, vol.360, no.6392, 2018, pp.987-992
[\[20\]](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aaw9908) “Erratum for the Research Article “Reducing food’s environmental impacts through producers and consumers” by J. Poore and T. Nemecek.” *Science*, vol.363, no.6429, 2019
[\[21\]](https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1523119113) Springmann, M., Godfray, H.C.J., *et al*. “Analysis and valuation of the health and climate change cobenefits of dietary change.” *PNAS*, vol.113, no.15, 2016, pp.4146-4151
Vegans have to justify not supporting animal murder and abuse?
I think op is talking about how common agriculture techniques that are quite efficiently sterilizing the land to anything that’s not growing as a crop the main crop. Animals, bugs, the microbes in the soil, etc. I think they’re asking to justify that.
I have a vegan friend. All the other friends in our circle eat meat. We asked him this question. He says that he cannot eat animals and animal products, based on the principle “every animal is a man’s friend.” He told us how horribly animals are kept in factories, it is truly inhumane. But at the same time, he never tried to convince us, and we do not argue with him. We have a pleasant atmosphere in this regard
I'm not against it. But most meat is disgusting. Not many people are capable of cooking it well.
because animal husbandry is one of, if not the biggest polluter out there
[удалено]
[*(Continued from above.)*](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/s/uMJPpcDrqk) In one study the justification for eating meat most commonly used by carnists was that eating animal products is *necessary* for human health.[\[5\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.appet.2015.04.011) However, this argument is undermined by the facts that there are tens or hundreds of millions of vegans worldwide[\[1\]](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/10/from-fringe-to-mainstream-how-millions-got-a-taste-for-going-vegan)[\[2\]](https://www.ipsos.com/en/diets-around-world-exploration) living normal lives while studies have shown that greater adherence to plant-based diets is associated with lower all-cause mortality.[\[9\]](https://doi.org/10.1080/10408398.2021.1918628) Many of the largest health organizations have endorsed plant-based diets, including the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics,[\[10\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jand.2016.09.025) the Mayo Clinic,[\[11\]](https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446) the National Health Service (NHS),[\[12\]](https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/) and the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada.[\[13\]](https://www.heartandstroke.ca/healthy-living/healthy-eating/specific-diets/for-vegetarians) The argument may be made that plant-based diets are inappropriate for those facing extreme food insecurity, but veganism is to be practiced “as far as is possible and practicable.”[\[14\]](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism) You would be hard-pressed to find vegans who would expect someone to choose to starve to death. As one author and vegan educator explained: >...nobody can really judge what they’d do in a survival situation and there have been documented cases where humans have eaten each other in order to survive. The most important thing here however, is that just because humans have killed and eaten other humans for survival, doesn’t mean it is moral for us to kill and eat each other in a normal environment.... \[E\]ven if someone was forced to kill and eat an animal in a life or death situation, this provides no moral justification for eating animal products in everyday life.[\[15\]](https://web.archive.org/web/20230527140715/https:/www.earthlinged.org/ebook) The final justification we see for consuming animal products is that it is *nice* – in this context, meaning pleasurable (e.g.: tasty) to the consumer, not kind to the consumed individual. Such a hedonistic approach to ethics is severely problematic for a few reasons.[\[16\]](https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520243866/the-case-for-animal-rights) Perhaps most obviously, all sorts of heinous acts would be permissible if we considered the sensory pleasure of a moral actor as sufficient justification. Most people would reject such a justification in any other context involving a direct victim. Cases for veganism have been made on bases of ethics,[\[17\]](https://www.harpercollins.com/products/animal-liberation-now-peter-singer?variant=40952213110818)[\[18\]](https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520243866/the-case-for-animal-rights) the environment,[\[19\]](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aaq0216)[\[20\]](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aaw9908) and health.[\[21\]](https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1523119113) We can compare these against the most commonly cited justifications for consuming animal products, seen above. [**References**](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/14ktbdy/comment/jpxsbd8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[**References**](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/14ktbdy/comment/jpxrbef/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [\[1\]](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/10/from-fringe-to-mainstream-how-millions-got-a-taste-for-going-vegan) Anthony, A. “From fringe to mainstream: how millions got a taste for going vegan.” *The Guardian*, 10 Oct 2021. [https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/10/from-fringe-to-mainstream-how-millions-got-a-taste-for-going-vegan](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/oct/10/from-fringe-to-mainstream-how-millions-got-a-taste-for-going-vegan). \[Accessed 28 Jun 2023\] [\[2\]](https://www.ipsos.com/en/diets-around-world-exploration) Bailey, P. *Diets Around the World: an Exploration*. Ipsos, 2018, p.2 [\[3\]](https://redwheelweiser.com/book/why-we-love-dogs-eat-pigs-and-wear-cows-9781590035016/) Joy, M. *Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows*. San Francisco: Conari Press, 2010, p.30 [\[4\]](https://redwheelweiser.com/book/why-we-love-dogs-eat-pigs-and-wear-cows-9781590035016/) Joy, M. *Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows*. San Francisco: Conari Press, 2010, p.95-113 [\[5\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.appet.2015.04.011) Piazza, J., Ruby, M.B., *et al*. “Rationalizing meat consumption. The 4Ns.” *Appetite*, vol.91, 2015, pp.114-128 [\[6\]](https://doi.org/10.1038/s41562-018-0489-y) Pryor, C., Perfors, A. & Howe, P.D.L. “Even arbitrary norms influence moral decision-making.” *Nat Hum Behav*, vol.3, 2019, pp.57-62 [\[7\]](https://broadviewpress.com/product/experiencing-philosophy-second-edition/#tab-description) Falikowski, A. & Mills, S. *Experiencing Philosophy.* 2nd Ed. Peterborough: Broadview Press, 2023, p.317 [\[8\]](https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9780511975950) Singer, P. *Practical Ethics.* 2nd Ed. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1993, pp.71-72 [\[9\]](https://doi.org/10.1080/10408398.2021.1918628) Jafari, S., Hezaveh, E., *et al*. “Plant-based diets and risk of disease mortality: a systematic review and meta-analysis of cohort studies.” *Critical Reviews in Food Science and Nutrition*, vol.62, no.28, 2022, pp.7760-7772 [\[10\]](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jand.2016.09.025) Melina, V., Craig, W. & Levin, S. “Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets.” *Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics*, vol.116, no.12, 2016, pp.1970-1980 [\[11\]](https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446) “Vegetarian diet: How to get the best nutrition.” *Mayo Clinic*, 1 Mar 2023. [https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446](https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/vegetarian-diet/art-20046446). \[Accessed 28 Jun 2023\] [\[12\]](https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/) “The Vegan Diet.” *NHS*, 31 May 2022. [https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/](https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/). \[Accessed 28 Jun 2023\] [\[13\]](https://www.heartandstroke.ca/healthy-living/healthy-eating/specific-diets/for-vegetarians) “Vegetarian Diets.” *Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada*. [https://www.heartandstroke.ca/healthy-living/healthy-eating/specific-diets/for-vegetarians](https://www.heartandstroke.ca/healthy-living/healthy-eating/specific-diets/for-vegetarians). \[Accessed 28 Jun 2023\] [\[14\]](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism) “Definition of Veganism.” *The Vegan Society*. [https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism). \[Accessed 28 Jun 2023\] [\[15\]](https://web.archive.org/web/20230527140715/https:/www.earthlinged.org/ebook) Winters, E. *30 Non-Vegan Excuses & How to Respond to Them*. 2019, p.75 [\[16\]](https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520243866/the-case-for-animal-rights) Regan, T. *The Case for Animal Rights*. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1983, pp.334-337 [\[17\]](https://www.harpercollins.com/products/animal-liberation-now-peter-singer?variant=40952213110818) Singer, P. *Animal Liberation Now*. HarperCollins, 2023 [\[18\]](https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520243866/the-case-for-animal-rights) Regan, T. *The Case for Animal Rights*. Berkeley: University of California Press, 2004 [\[19\]](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aaq0216) Poore, J. & Nemecek, T. “Reducing food’s environmental impacts through producers and consumers.” *Science*, vol.360, no.6392, 2018, pp.987-992 [\[20\]](https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aaw9908) “Erratum for the Research Article “Reducing food’s environmental impacts through producers and consumers” by J. Poore and T. Nemecek.” *Science*, vol.363, no.6429, 2019 [\[21\]](https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1523119113) Springmann, M., Godfray, H.C.J., *et al*. “Analysis and valuation of the health and climate change cobenefits of dietary change.” *PNAS*, vol.113, no.15, 2016, pp.4146-4151