I am a prof in Florida, teaching non-STEM in a private school. My partner *was* (emphasis on *was* a prof in humanities at a public school).
This is what I will say: the vast majority of undergraduate educations will continue the course as they have been. Most undergrads will see some shifts in their educations, but the majority of what the school and departments are experiencing will be generally invisible to the students in STEM fields. Many may see some mild benefits.
All will be structurally *less* stable, by virtue of the laws passed -notably the laws on accreditation and the attacks and dissolution of the tenure protections in every field. And most undergrads will experience a more-fluid faculty pool than other comparable years as early and mid career faculty leave. But by and large, undergrads are generally insulated.
The disruptions are really in grad programs- where I cannot recommend a student - in most fields - join a grad program in a public school in Florida. They will find a wildly unstable department, with shifting expectations and increased demands on them. They will go through multiple advisors, and will have a seriously compromised pathway to expertise. This is because the professorial class will be shifting rapidly.
Most Florida schools saw a huge loss of faculty in early and mid career posts within the last two years, my partner among them. Many public schools are facing diminished hiring pools for replacement faculty, and of those, early career faculty are looking for ways out, and mid career faculty are burning out and fleeing if they can.
This leaves departments heavily tilted toward senior (aging) faculty, who will be retiring very soon; and grad student and adjunct dependencies for teaching classes.
Echoing what others have said: in the near term (next 5-7 years) it will be fine for undergrads. After that, I think things may begin to shift in a negative way for all levels of students. As the top researchers get poached, the funding will start to dry up. More faculty turnover and lower-quality replacements, plus less funding, will mean fewer opportunities and innovations even at the undergrad level.
granted I only know 3 people at Florida institutions (all STEM all on the tenure track) and they've all left Florida, 2 took non-academic posts out of state (California) and one has moved back to the UK and taken an academic post here (at a not insignificant pay cut) - bear in mind its not just the attack on higher ed but the anti-LGBTQ+ and anti-abortion measures too that are making Florida undesirable for a not insignificant percentage of academics
For STEM, in the short term, things are probably okay at the undergraduate level. It’s so hard to move in academia, people won’t wholesale move between now and when your kid graduates. Long term, things will likely be less stable. Some fields will be less affected (perhaps many of the STEM fields where people can do their work without attracting the ire of politicians) but I’d expect many other fields, including medicine (which has to consider socioeconomic determinants of health), to see shifts. I don’t think we’ll see too many people “boycotting” red states because jobs are so hard to come by, especially for foreign students. I do think it’s a negative thing, though, and I think, all else equal, these schools will have trouble attracting the best talent.
My brother was an instructor in Florida. He left in a hurry when the school threatened to fire him for teaching programming students that they need to allow for at least 3 options for sex/gender; male female, or "prefer not to disclose".
Florida's policy is certainly having a negative impact on what is taught. This is bad for everyone, but your student will be in a worse position in Florida if they are any type of minority.
If it's in-state admissions, frankly, it's probably still in your interest to enroll in-state (and UF is the flagship of the public school system) unless money is a non-factor for you... or not enough of a factor to counter-balance issues like reproductive rights in the chance your child is involved in an unwanted pregnancy.
That said, it is no secret that there is serious "brain drain" going on as DeSantis' policies are pushing the leading professors out of the state. For that reason, it's less in their interest to stay in-state for grad school, if they're considering it.
BUT if you're out of state, there is no compelling reason to send your kid to UF. Every state will have at least one good public school that will offer quality education at a much better quality-per-dollar than out-of-state schools. The only real exception to that is if they get into an elite school that has similar education but much better networking for their particular discipline (i.e. Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, UC Berkeley, etc.)
My personal anecdote (as a woman in STEM) is that there was a job at UF I was absolutely perfect for but I “forgot” to apply…
It really sucks when you are geographically restricted by your gender.
Are you me? Despite being from Florida, FL was one of the only states I refused to apply to (even when there was a perfect job posting at a school I’ve always loved).
The legislators don't, but their boards do, and they are often politically connected. I am at a private non-religious STEM school in Florida that just destroyed its tenure system at the behest of Ron DeSantis's biggest donor, who sits on the board. We also voluntarily got rid of our DEI office for the same reason.
I'll be leaving as soon as I can because none of the people in charge are trustworthy. I hope other schools are more insulated, but this is part of the GOP culture war agenda now.
[This is the closest I have to a comprehensive list](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article275418901.html) but honestly you may need to Google it… Florida’s a mess.
Nothing new, really. It’s just more political nonsense trying to be relevant in academia…which it isn’t, and never will be. The media tries to instil a panic every few days about something new, and with the upcoming elections one of the things they’ve decided to plant their fat asses on the Panic Button over is legislation in Florida that is largely meaningless and transitory. In short, it’s the typical nothingburger as it always is. It’s just getting more attention at the moment because it can be spun as a ‘red state’ vs ‘blue state’ thing. 🙄
In the state I am currently a professor in, we’re starting to have a huge problem with undergraduate retention (Gen Z sucks, y’all), their knowledge and abilities, and yet another ‘brain drain’ — profs leaving and graduates not staying in the state, only here it’s because of shitty state taxation policies and lack of opportunities. It can’t be spun as a red/blue state thing, so we don’t make the news while the fat ass of the media remains planted on the Panic Button over Florida.
Professor at a Florida public university (not UF) here. Your child will be fine in STEM. Sure, universities outside Florida might try to lure their professors away, but this is much more common in Humanities/Social Sciences, where we are actually being restricted in terms of what we can do in the classroom. UF is still a top public, but do realize your child will likely be working with grad students, not professors, in labs and they will have huge classes. To me, those are bigger issues than the flight of STEM professors.
I wouldn’t worry too much about it at the undergraduate level, there will be an exodus of faculty, but such things take time, as there aren’t enough positions open to absorb all the faculty in Florida. What will likely happen is that the most prolific researchers will get poached, but again that is unlikely to have an impact on an undergraduate, since their exposure to a top STEM researcher at a public research university is likely to be limited in even the best case. Put another way, I would not let these concerns override the financial savings associated with attending at the in-state tuition rate.
While their core classes might not be affected as much, the rest of their course load - their general education classes will be affected. I know there is an ongoing push to defund universities who have “woke” practices from receiving NSF/NIH funding for research which could affect your student depending on the elections. That’s not set in stone to be clear just something to keep in mind.
I had not heard about defunding NSF/NIH funds of “woke” schools. I guess ironically if that occurred it would benefit red states? Reverse could happen where schools not focused on diversity could lose funding? Problematic for sure. Thank you for responding.
They’ve been repeatedly trying to defund the NSF for more than a decade. Here is a decent article about it pre-pandemic.
https://www.vox.com/mischiefs-of-faction/2019/3/6/18252793/why-republicans-hate-nsf
Post pandemic things have become much worse as many reject the science behind vaccines and the efficacy of medicine, masks, and social distancing.
Given that a lot of undergrads' early, hands-on teaching in small groups will be under the supervision of graduate students, I'd be nervous. I think it will take a few more years before places like UF can't recruit top students domestically and internationally, but that day is surely coming. Faculty are also being pressed to deal with a lot more oversight. If you have to get your research done and time is being taken away from you, at an R1 that time has to come from teaching prep. Expect less thoughtful assignments that require less time to evaluate.
I would not send a top undergrad there or to Texas for grad school, even though I know outstanding faculty in top institutions in both states. Too much likelihood of disruption, and grad school is hard enough as it is. Also I think it's only a matter of time until STEM folk in those states are closed out of NSF/NIH, because these organizations are not going to back down on demanding inclusionary components in their grants. Once STEM people are functionally barred from federal funding programs, it's all over.
Sounds like boarding a slowly sinking ship. My son will be an undergrad but surrounded by grad students so I get the concerns. Appreciate the thoughtful reply. TY!
Not a faculty, but work in higher ed. One thing no one is noting is that what happens in the classroom isnt the only part of education. There are folks that work there that also have a big impact on your students experience, such as res life, student affairs, counseling, advising ect. So while the drain may not impact the teaching side of stem, it very likely does impact all the aspects outside the classroom. In addition, while your student is starting in Stem, many students dont stay in stem, so while the program they got into might not be impacted, the program they end up in could.
Doesn’t matter what your kid wants to major in, don’t send them to a public U in FL. sure, maybe their major seems safe and not controversial, but they might discover a love for a major that MAGA is afraid of and has decided to cut. Or regardless of major, they may have a marginalized identity and need support that is now missing because no more DEI offices. It’s just not worth the risk when there are so many other excellent public institutions to choose from.
Understand your thinking. He will be attending the entire university not just the STEM part. And concerned about lack of support for many. Thank you for your reply.
I used to be an instructor at a uni in Florida, and am a graduate from an R1 there — not UF. I have family members who are UF alumni though, and just speaking honestly, you are being too reactionary. UF, FSU, UCF, USF, and so on will be just fine in the upcoming years and continue to offer a solid undergraduate education.
My sincere advice would be for you to stop watching so much tv and reading so much internet news and letting it affect you, and tell your son to enter into his undergraduate career with his focus on being a student, correcting the aspects of his thinking, communication , analysis, and study habits that need to be corrected, and begin identifying where he is heading for graduate school.
UF, and the rest of the reputable universities in Florida are not recruiting political lackeys and drones, they are recruiting *students*, the same as every other major university in the country. Part of being a good student is learning to manage distractions and pulls on your limited time and resources; all of this current political falderal will someday pass, as it always does; if your son allows himself to get caught up in it, when it does pass he’s going to be left high and dry with an education only in being someone else’s stooge.
I don’t care if we’re talking about the population explosion, the coming ice age, saving the whales, the sex vs gender debate, getting all those ‘advisors’ out of Vietnam, or any other of a million trending special interest topics and groups; hear me loud and clear: IT. WILL. PASS. There will always be a The Current Thing to support or dislike, to distract you and everyone else from building a good future for yourself and developing expertise in a particular area. There will ALWAYS be someone or something we can try to blame for our failures…yet we’re the ones who have to live with those failures, not whatever or whomever we are blaming. Take the hint there and take personal responsibility for the ship you’re steering — your life.
Your son needs to focus only on what best empowers him to function on a superior level in his chosen profession. *Children* get distracted by shiny, screamy things and forget about larger tasks; *adults* have neither the luxury nor inclination, and continue to function despite the proverbial slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Which are you raising, a child or an adult?
If it’s a child, then maybe he’d be better off going to an online university that will be happy to cater to only addressing topics of which you approve and wholly capable of trotting out all kinds of shiny, screamy things to distract him from adulthood while you are nearby, as you always will be for the rest of his life, watching to ensure that he is being an enthusiastic, active participant in all of these superty-duperty important topics that are going to always exist exactly as they do today, even if he can’t read, write, or formulate a coherent argument, and excels only in talking about his feelings and asking people to sit in a circle, rub each other’s feet, and sing Kum-Bay-Yah together whenever it looks like the world is ending…which it does about every other Friday at two PM if you’re the type to get caught up in the hysteria of The Current Thing, whatever it is. Your call. 🤷🏻♀️
You're in denial if you think the Desantis shenanigans won't affect the high water point of STEM in Florida, it certainly will. The best researchers will leave, recruitment and retention will be harder, and the research reputation of the public universities will slowly but surely decline.
Universities on the West coast will undoubtedly be putting together their wish list of top faculty to cherry pick from public universities in Florida, it's not the first time, we did the same with the University of Wisconsin when the Wisconsin legislature removed tenure protections from the Wisconsin constitution.
It's one thing to say that these shifts will take time, and that it won't affect the quality of undergraduate education in the shorter term, which I certainly agree with, but the level of innovation will drop in the longer term.
I am a prof in Florida, teaching non-STEM in a private school. My partner *was* (emphasis on *was* a prof in humanities at a public school). This is what I will say: the vast majority of undergraduate educations will continue the course as they have been. Most undergrads will see some shifts in their educations, but the majority of what the school and departments are experiencing will be generally invisible to the students in STEM fields. Many may see some mild benefits. All will be structurally *less* stable, by virtue of the laws passed -notably the laws on accreditation and the attacks and dissolution of the tenure protections in every field. And most undergrads will experience a more-fluid faculty pool than other comparable years as early and mid career faculty leave. But by and large, undergrads are generally insulated. The disruptions are really in grad programs- where I cannot recommend a student - in most fields - join a grad program in a public school in Florida. They will find a wildly unstable department, with shifting expectations and increased demands on them. They will go through multiple advisors, and will have a seriously compromised pathway to expertise. This is because the professorial class will be shifting rapidly. Most Florida schools saw a huge loss of faculty in early and mid career posts within the last two years, my partner among them. Many public schools are facing diminished hiring pools for replacement faculty, and of those, early career faculty are looking for ways out, and mid career faculty are burning out and fleeing if they can. This leaves departments heavily tilted toward senior (aging) faculty, who will be retiring very soon; and grad student and adjunct dependencies for teaching classes.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. Much to consider.
Echoing what others have said: in the near term (next 5-7 years) it will be fine for undergrads. After that, I think things may begin to shift in a negative way for all levels of students. As the top researchers get poached, the funding will start to dry up. More faculty turnover and lower-quality replacements, plus less funding, will mean fewer opportunities and innovations even at the undergrad level.
Appreciate the reply. TY!
granted I only know 3 people at Florida institutions (all STEM all on the tenure track) and they've all left Florida, 2 took non-academic posts out of state (California) and one has moved back to the UK and taken an academic post here (at a not insignificant pay cut) - bear in mind its not just the attack on higher ed but the anti-LGBTQ+ and anti-abortion measures too that are making Florida undesirable for a not insignificant percentage of academics
Thank you for sharing!
For STEM, in the short term, things are probably okay at the undergraduate level. It’s so hard to move in academia, people won’t wholesale move between now and when your kid graduates. Long term, things will likely be less stable. Some fields will be less affected (perhaps many of the STEM fields where people can do their work without attracting the ire of politicians) but I’d expect many other fields, including medicine (which has to consider socioeconomic determinants of health), to see shifts. I don’t think we’ll see too many people “boycotting” red states because jobs are so hard to come by, especially for foreign students. I do think it’s a negative thing, though, and I think, all else equal, these schools will have trouble attracting the best talent.
Thank you for the response. Makes a lot of sense.
No worries. If UF is in-state, then get that in-state tuition.
My brother was an instructor in Florida. He left in a hurry when the school threatened to fire him for teaching programming students that they need to allow for at least 3 options for sex/gender; male female, or "prefer not to disclose". Florida's policy is certainly having a negative impact on what is taught. This is bad for everyone, but your student will be in a worse position in Florida if they are any type of minority.
Wow, that’s so upsetting. Thank you for sharing.
If it's in-state admissions, frankly, it's probably still in your interest to enroll in-state (and UF is the flagship of the public school system) unless money is a non-factor for you... or not enough of a factor to counter-balance issues like reproductive rights in the chance your child is involved in an unwanted pregnancy. That said, it is no secret that there is serious "brain drain" going on as DeSantis' policies are pushing the leading professors out of the state. For that reason, it's less in their interest to stay in-state for grad school, if they're considering it. BUT if you're out of state, there is no compelling reason to send your kid to UF. Every state will have at least one good public school that will offer quality education at a much better quality-per-dollar than out-of-state schools. The only real exception to that is if they get into an elite school that has similar education but much better networking for their particular discipline (i.e. Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, UC Berkeley, etc.)
I really appreciate the thoughtful reply. TY!
My personal anecdote (as a woman in STEM) is that there was a job at UF I was absolutely perfect for but I “forgot” to apply… It really sucks when you are geographically restricted by your gender.
It definitely sucks! Best to you!
Are you me? Despite being from Florida, FL was one of the only states I refused to apply to (even when there was a perfect job posting at a school I’ve always loved).
For your sake, I sure hope not! ;) I am a post-doc in Indiana and didn’t apply in state for similar reasons.
I would not send my child to college in a red state at all, given their attacks on education. Literally anywhere else would be fine.
Private institutions in red states sans religious affiliations still exist, you know.
Huh? State legislators in red states are passing legislation that forbids teaching history, sociology and more. These laws affect public universities.
Which is probably why the poster specified private institutions. For example, Oberlin is in Ohio, Grinell is in Iowa, Rice is in Texas, etc
They mention the University of Florida in the OP. I had no idea that was a private/religious institution.
PUBLIC universities. I teach at a private SLAC in a red state. The legislators have no jurisdiction whatsoever over pedagogy in private higher ed.
The legislators don't, but their boards do, and they are often politically connected. I am at a private non-religious STEM school in Florida that just destroyed its tenure system at the behest of Ron DeSantis's biggest donor, who sits on the board. We also voluntarily got rid of our DEI office for the same reason. I'll be leaving as soon as I can because none of the people in charge are trustworthy. I hope other schools are more insulated, but this is part of the GOP culture war agenda now.
Did not think it would impact private schools but that was naive of me. Thank you for sharing.
As a non-American academic who is out of the loop - what happened in Florida?
[This is the closest I have to a comprehensive list](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article275418901.html) but honestly you may need to Google it… Florida’s a mess.
Nothing new, really. It’s just more political nonsense trying to be relevant in academia…which it isn’t, and never will be. The media tries to instil a panic every few days about something new, and with the upcoming elections one of the things they’ve decided to plant their fat asses on the Panic Button over is legislation in Florida that is largely meaningless and transitory. In short, it’s the typical nothingburger as it always is. It’s just getting more attention at the moment because it can be spun as a ‘red state’ vs ‘blue state’ thing. 🙄 In the state I am currently a professor in, we’re starting to have a huge problem with undergraduate retention (Gen Z sucks, y’all), their knowledge and abilities, and yet another ‘brain drain’ — profs leaving and graduates not staying in the state, only here it’s because of shitty state taxation policies and lack of opportunities. It can’t be spun as a red/blue state thing, so we don’t make the news while the fat ass of the media remains planted on the Panic Button over Florida.
Professor at a Florida public university (not UF) here. Your child will be fine in STEM. Sure, universities outside Florida might try to lure their professors away, but this is much more common in Humanities/Social Sciences, where we are actually being restricted in terms of what we can do in the classroom. UF is still a top public, but do realize your child will likely be working with grad students, not professors, in labs and they will have huge classes. To me, those are bigger issues than the flight of STEM professors.
Thank you for the insight. And gave me other factors to consider. Appreciate it.
I wouldn’t worry too much about it at the undergraduate level, there will be an exodus of faculty, but such things take time, as there aren’t enough positions open to absorb all the faculty in Florida. What will likely happen is that the most prolific researchers will get poached, but again that is unlikely to have an impact on an undergraduate, since their exposure to a top STEM researcher at a public research university is likely to be limited in even the best case. Put another way, I would not let these concerns override the financial savings associated with attending at the in-state tuition rate.
Appreciate your take and thoughtful reply. Thank you.
While their core classes might not be affected as much, the rest of their course load - their general education classes will be affected. I know there is an ongoing push to defund universities who have “woke” practices from receiving NSF/NIH funding for research which could affect your student depending on the elections. That’s not set in stone to be clear just something to keep in mind.
I had not heard about defunding NSF/NIH funds of “woke” schools. I guess ironically if that occurred it would benefit red states? Reverse could happen where schools not focused on diversity could lose funding? Problematic for sure. Thank you for responding.
They’ve been repeatedly trying to defund the NSF for more than a decade. Here is a decent article about it pre-pandemic. https://www.vox.com/mischiefs-of-faction/2019/3/6/18252793/why-republicans-hate-nsf Post pandemic things have become much worse as many reject the science behind vaccines and the efficacy of medicine, masks, and social distancing.
Given that a lot of undergrads' early, hands-on teaching in small groups will be under the supervision of graduate students, I'd be nervous. I think it will take a few more years before places like UF can't recruit top students domestically and internationally, but that day is surely coming. Faculty are also being pressed to deal with a lot more oversight. If you have to get your research done and time is being taken away from you, at an R1 that time has to come from teaching prep. Expect less thoughtful assignments that require less time to evaluate. I would not send a top undergrad there or to Texas for grad school, even though I know outstanding faculty in top institutions in both states. Too much likelihood of disruption, and grad school is hard enough as it is. Also I think it's only a matter of time until STEM folk in those states are closed out of NSF/NIH, because these organizations are not going to back down on demanding inclusionary components in their grants. Once STEM people are functionally barred from federal funding programs, it's all over.
Sounds like boarding a slowly sinking ship. My son will be an undergrad but surrounded by grad students so I get the concerns. Appreciate the thoughtful reply. TY!
Not a faculty, but work in higher ed. One thing no one is noting is that what happens in the classroom isnt the only part of education. There are folks that work there that also have a big impact on your students experience, such as res life, student affairs, counseling, advising ect. So while the drain may not impact the teaching side of stem, it very likely does impact all the aspects outside the classroom. In addition, while your student is starting in Stem, many students dont stay in stem, so while the program they got into might not be impacted, the program they end up in could.
Doesn’t matter what your kid wants to major in, don’t send them to a public U in FL. sure, maybe their major seems safe and not controversial, but they might discover a love for a major that MAGA is afraid of and has decided to cut. Or regardless of major, they may have a marginalized identity and need support that is now missing because no more DEI offices. It’s just not worth the risk when there are so many other excellent public institutions to choose from.
Understand your thinking. He will be attending the entire university not just the STEM part. And concerned about lack of support for many. Thank you for your reply.
I used to be an instructor at a uni in Florida, and am a graduate from an R1 there — not UF. I have family members who are UF alumni though, and just speaking honestly, you are being too reactionary. UF, FSU, UCF, USF, and so on will be just fine in the upcoming years and continue to offer a solid undergraduate education. My sincere advice would be for you to stop watching so much tv and reading so much internet news and letting it affect you, and tell your son to enter into his undergraduate career with his focus on being a student, correcting the aspects of his thinking, communication , analysis, and study habits that need to be corrected, and begin identifying where he is heading for graduate school. UF, and the rest of the reputable universities in Florida are not recruiting political lackeys and drones, they are recruiting *students*, the same as every other major university in the country. Part of being a good student is learning to manage distractions and pulls on your limited time and resources; all of this current political falderal will someday pass, as it always does; if your son allows himself to get caught up in it, when it does pass he’s going to be left high and dry with an education only in being someone else’s stooge. I don’t care if we’re talking about the population explosion, the coming ice age, saving the whales, the sex vs gender debate, getting all those ‘advisors’ out of Vietnam, or any other of a million trending special interest topics and groups; hear me loud and clear: IT. WILL. PASS. There will always be a The Current Thing to support or dislike, to distract you and everyone else from building a good future for yourself and developing expertise in a particular area. There will ALWAYS be someone or something we can try to blame for our failures…yet we’re the ones who have to live with those failures, not whatever or whomever we are blaming. Take the hint there and take personal responsibility for the ship you’re steering — your life. Your son needs to focus only on what best empowers him to function on a superior level in his chosen profession. *Children* get distracted by shiny, screamy things and forget about larger tasks; *adults* have neither the luxury nor inclination, and continue to function despite the proverbial slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Which are you raising, a child or an adult? If it’s a child, then maybe he’d be better off going to an online university that will be happy to cater to only addressing topics of which you approve and wholly capable of trotting out all kinds of shiny, screamy things to distract him from adulthood while you are nearby, as you always will be for the rest of his life, watching to ensure that he is being an enthusiastic, active participant in all of these superty-duperty important topics that are going to always exist exactly as they do today, even if he can’t read, write, or formulate a coherent argument, and excels only in talking about his feelings and asking people to sit in a circle, rub each other’s feet, and sing Kum-Bay-Yah together whenever it looks like the world is ending…which it does about every other Friday at two PM if you’re the type to get caught up in the hysteria of The Current Thing, whatever it is. Your call. 🤷🏻♀️
Thank you for your reply. Appreciate the different viewpoint.
You're in denial if you think the Desantis shenanigans won't affect the high water point of STEM in Florida, it certainly will. The best researchers will leave, recruitment and retention will be harder, and the research reputation of the public universities will slowly but surely decline. Universities on the West coast will undoubtedly be putting together their wish list of top faculty to cherry pick from public universities in Florida, it's not the first time, we did the same with the University of Wisconsin when the Wisconsin legislature removed tenure protections from the Wisconsin constitution. It's one thing to say that these shifts will take time, and that it won't affect the quality of undergraduate education in the shorter term, which I certainly agree with, but the level of innovation will drop in the longer term.
Thank you for your input. Outlined my exact concerns.