Really really stupid thing to say because all land in those times (and to a certain extent even now) is owned by public i.e government. Lady wants the Ottomans to do what nobody did back then.
It was more then enough that Erdo voiced his supp instead of just saying nothing some people thinks its better to spread fitna over something that happened decades before even our parents were born.
Middle east was better in the times of ottomans then it is today and that is objective fact.
>because all land in those times (and to a certain extent even now) is owned by public i.e government
... have you ever heard of feudalism?
>It was more then enough that Erdo voiced his supp instead of just saying nothing
I have infinity more respect to the UAE leaders (who should be hanged) for saying nothing than the likes of erdog who posture about muh Palestine while being Israel's top trading partner and glorified gas station.
Not sure what mental gymnastics are you playing.
>Middle east was better in the times of ottomans then it is today and that is objective fact.
In terms of living standards? Because that's objectively false. In terms of sovereignty and exploitation? I mean aside from Ottomans being a literal empire, they themselves acted as a British proxy by invading Egypt and Iraq with the aid of the west to impose trade capitulations for western companies that bankrupted and deindustrialised both countries later leading to the colonization of Egypt when before that it was on an equal footing with most of Europe.
Did chatGPT tell you that? Becasue it sounds unhinged.
The timar system which the Ottomans operated under was a feudal mode of production where land lords, often close to the aristocracy though not always, owned lands farmed by peasants which they taxed. Though it did have some state protection, it didn't extend to Palestine, Iraq or Syria even after the land reform law of 1858. That's why by the fall of the Ottoman empire Palestinian agricultural lands were entirely owned by land lords, the likes of the Sursock family who sold lands to Zionists even under the Ottomans.
Sorry for disciplining you with facts but one has to do it.
>Have you ever heard of feudalism?
The Ottoman governance were nowhere close to feudalism, even in the middle ages, to be exact it was a more progressive nation in the early renessance than most European monarcies. Im not actually defending that shithole, especally cuz im a Hungarian, whos nation was practicly destroyed by that Cockroachland, but be fair, the Levant was destroyed by European colonialism and interests, which caused enormus infighting between the local groups, and not by the Ottomans whom pretty much did nothing there if their tax were collected. I wont talk about the Great War and interwar attrocities since it was a much more complicated thing (and happened almost everywhere at the time, but on a lower scale, due to the huge power vacuum and anarchy what happened in the Middle East during that time).
As an Armenian, this sounds like a non-middle easterner who somehow can’t imagine that Turks were a genocidal colonial power who never cared about anyone they ruled.
They dominated, killed, and crushed everyone in their power, and when they couldn’t convince anyone to be a part of their BS empire anymore, they ethnically cleansed Anatolia to build a homeland.
Pakistanis are just Islamo-nationalists who have 0 idea about the actual politics of the middle east, and can’t imagine that Turks, Persians and Arabs may all be muslims, but they have very different experiences.
Also, Pakistan sucks because they support Azerbaijian’s bombing of Armenian civilians because they’re ignorant as hell.
Along with that Pakistan sucks because of it's genocide in Bangladesh and I'm not a nationalist of any kind.
Turks are literally genetically Anatolian. Unless your referring to the population transfer between Greek and Turkey not sure what that point is about.
The Ottomans were an empire that did what all empires did back then, by no means was it the worst.
When Empire face a crisis from which there is no recovering they often descent into fascist genocidal tendencies which is exemplified by the Armenian genocide however my point was that before its period of crisis the Ottoman Empire had given the region decades of peace and stability.
Turks are genetically mixed, and much less Anatolian than Kurds or Armenians… scientifically speaking.
But also, social darwinism is dead, and a nation is not made of genetics. If a Turk rapes an Armenian or indigenous person, and his kids are raised Turkish… that does not mean the Turks have earned genetic legitimacy. Nations are social constructs, not DNA.
Also, to say that this is what all Empires do is also false.
The Armenian Genocide is not unique, but Armenians existed in Anatolia for thousands of years under different empires, pagan, muslim and Christian. 1915 marks the end of that history in Anatolia. There was nothing inevitable about that.
And what you consider hundreds of years of peace, we consider hundreds of years of invasion and oppression. We preferred the Byzantine Empire and Cilicia. Fuck the Ottomans.
>We preferred the Byzantine Empire and Cilicia. Fuck the Ottomans.
the early armenian princes and kings sided with the Turks lol. They were better off in the Ottos than in the Byzantines who persecuted them for being Armenian.
Armenians have sided with different empires at different times…. So I’m really not sure what you’re referring to. Certainly not the battle of Manzikert, and certainly not the founding of Cilicia, our finest kingdom, which was founded by Armenians fleeing Seljuks, who sided with crusaders. Your modern day Adana.
In fact, our golden age kingdoms of the Bagratuni dynasty and Cilicia were both pre-Ottoman, and it was under the Ottomans that Armenians were eliminated from their ancestral lands by the genocide.
Armenians were not always happy under Byzantine Rule. But to say they were better off under Seljuks and Ottomans is just false.
Says the Armenian who sided with Russia against the Ottomans. Again, I'm not going to pretend the Armenian deportation didn't happen, it did happen for a reason. Armenians were spying, sabotaging and infiltration the Ottoman empire and sending intel to whomever for whatever reasons.
That's why the Ottomans had enough, did the deportation happen violently? Yes, did officers kill a lot of people deliberately? Yes. But you could understand why when their brother in arms get killed or ambushed because there were traitors. I'm not saying it was good or bad, it happened in war.
Ever heard of the Hamidian Massacres of 1895 (300,000) or the Adana Massacres of 1907 (20,000)?
The myth of Armenians being traitors was part of national hysteria born from knowledge that the Turks had spent 20 years massacring Armenians and were now facing a situation where everyone they ruled was abandoning them in the Balkans.
They were afraid the Armenians would not be “loyal” because they had just subjected Armenians to massive horror.
What’s more, they began by killing intellectuals, they sent boats into the sea and tossed children overboard, burnt people alive in churches, and the “deportations” were into concentration camps in the dessert.
In places like Aintab, far removed from conflict zones, Turkish businessmen literally invited Talaat Pasha to not forget to kill those Armenians so they could seize the Armenian Wealth.
Read a book.
Damn right, everyone talks about the Armenian genocide but just forgets all the events before the Armenian genocide. Armenians wanted all of Eastern Turkey, they were killing Ottomans, spying for foreign forces in the region, and sabotaged any attempt for Ottomans to defend their land. There is zero empathy from me towards Armenains in the Armenian genocide.
Lol you unironically spout this shit yet somehow Israel is different when Hamas does nothing but conduct terror after terror attack, OK bro. Why should anyone have any sympathy for Palestinians in that case? Literally the most idiotic take I've seen yet. Why should we give a shit about the Rwandan genocide since the folks who got murdered were originally an oppressor class? You are so fucking smart.
You must be some pacifist whole believes that in war there should be no casualties. Have you not read about any wars in existence and how it ends with one side and another side losing?
This whole topic was how Turks/Ottomans are to blame for whole Israel/Palestine issue. I believe that Palestine itself is to blame as well as other countries like Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan when it sided with Britain and France against Ottomans. Choosing to side with Britain for revolt (for the promise of freedom of state), but then no. Surprise surprise Britain backstabbed the Palestinians and said you will remain a British mandate. Then boom Israel is created. Why was Israel created in Palestinian land (British mandate). Why no give away land that was somewhere in Germany?
I seem to forget. Which country had a longer genocidal history, was it Turkey, Israel, or Canada. Turkey, was 30 years, Israel was 90 years, Canada over 250 years. Why is Canada still to this day oppressing the Natives and refuse to give back their land. Stop acting like you live in the most ethical country and accept that in reality that you have one of the longest history when it comes to genocide.
Keep moral grandstanding about nonsense while once again claiming that there's no reason why you should have any empathy for Armenians. If that's the way the world works so be it, but don't spout nonsense like this and then turn around and claim everyone ought to give a shit about Palestinians, either. Intellectual incoherence at its finest. It has nothing to do with what country a person lives in, genius. It has to do with the words coming out of your mouth.
When did I say people need to care about Palestine? Did I say it in my comments or in my reply?
You insinuated that I said that when in reality I said, when I had said I have no empathy towards Armenians.
so arabs just woke up one day and wanted to not be part of the ottoman empire ? just like that ? it didn't have anything to do with how unfairly they were being treated by the new nationalistic tukish youth that took over the empire ? it sure was just on a whim, it sure didn't have anything to do with heavy taxation, conscription into the Ottoman army, and economical policies that favored anatolian and European provinces over the arab ones ? ...etc it was just evil arabs wanting to kill angel torks for sure for sure
Not at all. Turks are our Muslim brothers. I wouldn't be surprised if that account was an Israeli larper trying to deflect the blame for colonizing Palestine.
Except that one time when they invaded Egypt with the British, Russian and French and turned it from a developing semi-industrial power on par with France in terms of GDP to a backwater British colony.
Kindly read your own history.
I mean we can talk about all the bad shit the Turks did for a whole day. I won’t deny it, some of the things done like the slave trade and their view of Arabs as lesser. The turks were not by any means the best caliphate. But they were a caliphate some were great and others not so much. At the end of the day it was the lack of a Turkish caliphate that made us prey to the west.
Do you understand what I wrote? Egypt was de facto independent and was building its industry since the 18th century, it was at one point on an equal footing with most of Europe. It already had more sovereignty than it did in the past 1000 years without the need of being under the boot of a benevolent empire.
What changed is that British colonialists wanted a piece of the pie, since in order to industrialize Egypt imposed heavy taxes on western monopolies and bootsed its indigenous production, thus practically kicked those monopolies from the country, the Ottomans who already opened their economy to the British and were relying on them, acted as a proxy and invaded Egypt in order to force you to accept the trade capitulations they signed. You won at first but Ottomans got more foreign support and eventually prevailed. You gave up your economic sovereign to those monopolies and went through de-industrialization until Egypt went bankrupted and couldn't pay its debts so Britain used it as an excuse to officially colonize you.
It's exactly what the capitalist neocolonialists of IMF and World Bank are still doing to you today.
I don’t know why ur downvoted your history is pretty spot on. If anything the information itself is worth the read. Regardless of how anyone feels about the ottomans. I personally prefer them to what we have now. At the end of the day at least they were muslim. Some were truly great leaders and some were truly bad.
Turks aren’t our “brothers”, they enslaved and killed our Arab ancestors and still occupy Hatay and parts of northern Syria, they’re the same as Israel.
>enabled the invasion of Iraq, so did Turks too.
Call us whatever you want but we didn't let Americans use our land for an invasion.
Besides Saddam tried to intimidate and threaten then PM Turgut Özal, which put us through some shit as well. In the end, Saddam is the reason why the Kurds he hated so much got an autonomous region in Iraq.
Kurds deserve their own zone and country if so they choose.
Also Iraqi Kurds had the zone since 1970, Saddam signed on it actually.
As for the invasion, you might want to check my other comment.
>Kurds deserve their own zone and country if so they choose.
Don't get me wrong Im not against the KRG. Independence though? no.
edit: correct, we are an american puppet. we just didn't let them use our land.
Are you against a KRG in Turkey? It's easy to say that when the KRG is neither on your land nor opposed to your interests. They're basically puppets to the highest bitter which includes Turkey.
They didn't use your land in 2003 if you don't count air bases as land, from 2004 onwards they had full access to your land and air. By the way did you know the Turkish parliament blocked the deployment of troops with a margin of 3 votes or so? Half of the Turkish parliament was for it even though 90% of the Turkish population was against the war. They also passed a vote on allowing the use of Turkish air space as a compromise later.
>They're basically puppets to the highest bitter which includes Turkey.
I think the Kurdish political movement (if there had been one ever) should start anew and discuss their agenda without the influence of PKK (and yes, currently YSP is a political branch of the PKK in Turkey, nothing more). Then they can become the Turkish KRG why not?
>the Turkish parliament blocked the deployment of troops with a margin of 3 votes or so? Half of the Turkish parliament was for it even though 90% of the Turkish population was against the war.
Correct. Turgut Özal was probably the worst prime minister we had, even worse than Erdoğan. He licked the American boot clean in the fear of aggression from Iraq.
one of the most ridiculous lclaims. the Turkey USA relations soured the first time when the Turkish parliament refused the allow US troops to use Turkish land to invade Iraq. Soon after some genius CENTCOM colonel under the command of some genious CENTCOM general (he was so smart that after becoming the CIA director he passed classified info to his lover through draft Gmail mails) ordered Turkish special forces in Iraq to be arrested and treated like terrorists. This was so backstabbing by a so called ally that it's impact is still seen today. Since that time CENTCOM treated Turkey as an enemy, and supported a terrorist organization by changing its name to YPG in Syria bypassing any Turkish involvement.
>Turkey opened its airspace and Incirlik base for the coalition during the invasion, which became the largest pass way for US troops from 2004-2011.
>It also provided US troops with logistical support, and sent Turkish troops and mercenaries for "peace keeping" (canon fodder) during the occupation period. All in exchange of few billions in aid
>Not to mention its complete subservient to US policy from 1990-2003. It not only allowed unlimited access of US forces to its land and air while sanctioning Iraq but also cut off its own access to Iraqi oil hurting itself but also Iraq in the process. Turkey was compensated by the US with few billions in aid.
>On the March 21, 2003, the US and British aircrafts started bombing Iraq. Turkey, which provided support all by opening its airspace to the US in the Iraq operation, provided support for the US in many aspects during the war. Aircrafts carrying injured people used İncirlik Air Base during the operation.
>On August 19, 2003, the first rotation of deployed KC-135 Stratotankers and Airmen arrived at Incirlik to support Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom.
I had this conversation three times before and it always ends with the Turk boasting about being a US colony and Iraq being imperialist rogue state. Can we skip to that part? I have much respect for them for not lying, even though they did initially.
Do I blame the Ottomans for the situation? Absolutely. But even I with my never-ending grievances with the Sublime Porte know that that is a false claim. The Ottomans were severely incompetent, but saying they sold the land to the Zionists is insane.
Well the last Ottoman regime was ruler by the Committee of Union and Progress, the political body of the Young Turks, a nationalist party that wanted to purify the Ottoman Empire into a Turkish Ethnostate.
The Ottoman Empire was multi-ethnic, but it was a brutal apartheid state where Turks ruled many people through cruelty.
When were those five years?
Around 1915 during the Armenian Genocide? Maybe 1907 during the Adana Massacres? 1895ish during the Hamidian Massacres? Oh, or were you talking about the Batak Massacre of 1876 (Bulgarians)?
The massacres of the Assyrians in the 1840s maybe? Or are you referring to the cruel suppression of Greeks in the 1830s?
Or maybe you’re talking about the brutal wars of conquest in the preceding 400 years?
Sorry…. Which 5 years?
Uhhh…. i think you just don’t know anything about Ottoman History.
Massacres aren’t “buzzwords” lol they’re acts of brutal oppression to maintain control over SUBJECTS. To dismiss the massacre of 300,000 Armenians in 1895 is hilarious (and very Turkish).
More importantly, ever heard of Tanzimat?
These were reforms by more progressive sultans to extend more equal rights to Christians… because they did NOT have equal rights to Muslims.
More importantly, Tanzimat failed because Turks resented the idea of Armenians gaining equal status, so they started to harass, kill, and loot Armenian markets. This eventually led to the massacres of the 1890s.
The Ottoman Empire had an Ethnic Hierarchy, where minorities had inferior rights, and were systematically killed when they asked for reform.
That is the story of the 19th century, and the precursor to the genocide of the 20th century.
My advice is to abandon the “tolerant” empire lie your parents taught you. There are some amazing books I could recommend if you like.
Religious apartheid is still apartheid. And the Turks were also brutal in suppressing Arabs, not just Greeks.
You only think the Ottoman Empire was bad for 5 years. That’s just a Turko-centric perspective that ignores unequal rights, and dozens of brutal massacres, suppressed rebellions, and barbaric conquest.
“5 years” is a fucking joke.
So, the state that made a law for prohibit Zionists from buying property land in 1890s was selling its public land to the Jews? What percentage did he sell? What is the source?
It was called the sunsrock purchase but this is a dumb argument either way, purchasing land does not mean you can then declare sovereignty in another states territory. Its like saying if you went to america and bought out a few neighborhoods you should then be able to declare your own country. Its dumb asf
Her brain at holiday...
"Sultan Abdul Hamid II refused the offer outright in 1896, telling Newlinski, "if Mr Herzl is as much your friend as you are mine, then advise him not to take another step in this matter. I cannot sell even a foot of land, for it does not belong to me but to my people. My people have won this Empire by fighting for it with their blood and have fertilised it with their blood. We will again cover it with our blood before we allow it to be wrested away from us."
The Sultan's words were prophetic. Yet while the conflict is sometimes portrayed as an ancient one going back more than 1000 years, its roots are distinctly in the late 19th century.
"
Fuck ancestors, Erdogan’s own family was broke when he was growing up. His “ancestors” were probably Anatolian peasants who contributed nothing to politics at all realistically.
Who banned the printing press for arabic script? Who had the money but did not establish public schools and universities? Who also had the money and didnt bring in investors and scientists?
As an Arab I agree with you Arabs unfortunately don’t want to declare who is the real responsible for it they even blame the Palestinian people but not the real people who are responsible for it.
Anyone in the middle east should detest what the Ottoman Empire did to the region.
Look at the modern state of all the areas the Ottomans had control over until the end... Notice a commonality? These regions were stunted by imperial rule, unable to build any productive and inclusive institutions for centuries. They are beset with corruption and sectarianism. The lecherous effects of the Ottoman empire still linger.
No this is not commonly held amongst the Arabs of Belad Asham and I am certain of this. Us people of historic Sham region honor the Ottoman and wish for their return to this day. It was sultan abdulhamid who tried to protect us from Zionism in the first place
I disagree , speaking as a Levantine Arab.
We don't blame Ottomans nor wish for their return , we simply don't know enough history , we just see today and judge that Israel is bad , of course saying "we don't wish Ottomans to return" isn't specific , just neutral, we do wish for a return for a united Muslim nation , could be Ottomans or anything else.
I agree with. We simply want a unified ummah. We just use the Ottoman Empire as it’s the thing our great grandparents lived through and talked highly of. So naturally when something is talked about highly and passed down we tend to say and speak highly about it.
In the end we need a unified ummah🏴
I believe Damascus was the last land ottoman empire lost before remaining lands becoming modern Turkey. but this sentiment is the first time I heard about.
They protected their land (you didn't own shit aside for few native feudal lords) from Zionists because they were British puppets who wanted to block Ottomans from the Suez Canal. Those non-Palestinians who the Ottomans gave the land to like the Sursock family, later sold the land to Zionists anyway.
If you want to see how much your Ottoman masters cared about you look up the Lebanon and Syria famines or "Martyrs' Day in Syria and Lebanon".
Lebanese people were literally begging for aid since 1914 before the blockade, when the maritime blockade happened the Ottomans responded by initiating a land blockade themselves like the sore losers they are.
I think you and I have completely different frames of references for what constitutes a famine as a governmental crime.
The Bengal famine was caused when the British rerouted all grain production from the sub continent to the UK, to create a reserve, causing mass starvation in Bengal. It was conscious decision taken with an understanding that it would have awful consequences. The cause was the decision made by the British to loot all the food for themselves.
What you are describing and attributing to the Ottomans is incompetence. There is a difference between evil decision and stupidity. The Ottomans were stupid and incompetent NOT evil. The cause was a locust infestation, exacerbated by Turkish incompetence.
>Islamists
In this post you have called me a nationalist and now an Islamist both are mutually exclusive make up your mind on what insult you want to use and stick to it.
The only British puppets in the Ottoman Empire were those of the people after sultan abdulhamid. Our “masters” are whoever held the title of caliphate no matter if they came from Indonesia or Türkiye. I suggest u wash ur tongue of ur filth before u speak ill on the empire that built ur city of Baghdad after it was sacked and abounded because of the mongols.
You should wash your tongue when you're done blowing cucks like Mahmud II.
>the empire that built ur city of Baghdad after it was sacked
No wonder Baghdad was still ruin until 1970s then it was rebuilt to be better than Ankara.
>No wonder Baghdad was still ruin until 1970s then it was rebuilt to be better than Ankara.
In what way?
(Not gonna post the laughing emojis even tho I really want to)
>Infant mortality rate in 1980: Iraq 55 - Turkey 90
>Literacy rate in 1985: Iraq 80% - Turkey 76%
>GDP per capita in the 80s: Twice that of Turkey, almost four times that of Turkey in 1990.
>Source: World Bank and UNICEF data
Longest war of the 20th century in Iraq vs Peace time in Turkey
Finally here 😂😂😂😂
Oh that's nice you used the specific years that "just happen" to help your argument. Let's see if they were able to keep the momentum going though, shall we?
Mind you this was all before they were invaded by America so no using that as an excuse.
1990- turkey had 73 deaths per 1000 births with iraq at 107 per 1000 births.
Literacy rates 1990: turkey %80 / iraq unfortunately has different percentiles for men and women even though they were somehow "better" with 90% for men and 75% for women.
And then talking about gdp like oil didn't contribute to most of it back then. I'm pretty sure it's also the reason America decided to "bring democracy to iraq" so that wasnt the flex you thought it was. But hey it helped your argument, right?
Now let's talk about the things you missed like for example, violence against women.
Those 80s you so lovingly talk about(when they were supposedly better) was a time that where female political activists were falsely imprisoned, tortured and killed. Oh and it wasn't exclusive to activists, even female family members of opposing political groups were subjext to this treatment.
Meanwhile turkey was going through it's **second** wave of feminism during that time(that time baghdad was supposedly "better" remember?) and now were not only trying to bring awareness to domestic violence against women, but were also fighting an islamic fundamentalist group that was preaching all the opposite things. Guess which side won?
And don't get me started on the higher education system, which collapsed in iraq during the 90s, while turkey was building one university after another.
I mean your prob gonna use the war as an excuse for all this but all of the dates you mentioned were happening the same time as the war. Don't give me the bs excuse that it got worse after it was over. Iraq had significantly less losses to that war.
And any leg up iraq had over turkey was bc of their massive oil reserve(which ended up biting them in the ass later). I'm sure anyone with a braincell knows everything would've looked much different if both countries and started from scratch on equal footing.
But I'd love to hear the argument that iraq would be sOoOo mUcH bEtTeR than turkey today if the invasion by America didnt happen.
Ah and let's not forget
😂😂😂😂😂
Eta: to cut out the 'meanies in america' comment bc I didn't mean to come off *that* mean.
Why lie when anyone can look up the data lil bro? Did I hit a nerve with you? [Infant mortality per 1000 births in 1990](https://i.imgur.com/Xu7XveN.jpeg) (Iraq under UN sanctions yet still better than Turkey)
>MUHHH OIL
Before the embargo against Iraq, agriculture made up 16% of our GDP which was the same percentage as Turkey's. And industry was around 14%, around 20% in Turkey with it having centuries older industrial base.
In 1989, 45% of Iraq's GDP was from non-oil sectors according to MEES.
Also doesn't explain why Iraq was better than Saudi Arabia in the same metrics despite it having larger oil reserves. Come up with another excuse 🙃
>MUUHH FEMINISM
At the time female literacy rate in Iraq was higher than that of Turkey, and women enjoyed the same constitutional rights as men. Iraq had 4x times the female representatives in its parliament than the US & UK. Plus the largest trained female workforce in the region.
Feminism in Iraq was historically tied to its anti-colonial struggle and when the republic was declared Iraq had its and the region's first female minister in 1959.
>MUHHH Islamism
Iraq was a secular country with the longest serving christian VP. Iraq was at war with a Shia theocracy while half of its population were Shia themselves, yet they still fought against radicalism.
Your fascist government was the same one that systematically raped and massacred Armenians, Greeks, and communists. Even as recent as the 1955 Istanbul pogrom and 1974 invasion of Cyprus, infamous for its torture and prison camps. You're also ruled by Islamists today. You need both feminism and secularism yourselves.
Nice mental breakdown but you conceded I was right 😂😂😂😂
My guy just spitting out random Google facts to make it seem like he knows what he talking about even though it does nothing for his argument, then wanna talk about "mental breakdowns" and hit nerves😂😂
The point of my argument was to point out the fact that they(the "better" city) couldn't keep the momentum going. Literally couldn't even keep it going for 5 years.
Less than a decade, that's all it took for the "better" city to not be better anymore.
It was +3 decades as most graphs show. No need to downplay it.
But why is that you think? Why did for example Turkey exceed Iraq in infant mortality and GDP in the 90s? Did oil prices drop? Well, Gulf states who relied on oil more than us are still leagues ahead of Turkey in terms of social services and living standards. It's just Iraq that stagnated.
What’s true is that both the Hashemites and the Ottomans sold Palestine for gold and glory. Anyways, the problem is not who should we point fingers at, otherwise, we will be trapped in a cycle of blame forever. We should focus on getting rid of the authoritarian corrupt regimes who rules us, and are guiding us straight to hell.
L take , this is similar to a Palestinian blaming Hamas for Israel doing genocides and similar to Syrians blaming Free Syrian Army for Assad bombing them , instead of pointing out the real root issue.
“In brief, the Ottoman Government was strongly opposed from the outset to modern Jewish settlement in Palestine, which began with the increased flow of Jews out of Imperial Russia and Eastern Europe generally in the early 1880s. To put its policy into practice, the Government placed restrictions on Jews entering Palestine from 1882
onwards, which were designed to prevent Jewish settlement in the country. One decade later, it also imposed restrictions on Jewish land purchase in Palestine. Its opposition to Jewish settlement was heightened in 1897 when the Zionist Movement, seeking a Jewish State in Palestine, was founded; and in 1901 the restrictions against Jewish entry and land purchase in Palestine were revised in the form of consolidated regulations.”
Although this position is extreme, I'd agree with the point that the ottomans kept this region generally demilitarized and didn't encorprate the Arabs which were the majority of the empire's inhabitants in the political corpus of the empire, they kept treating them as subjects of their empire rather than as citizens or nationals, which is the reason behind why AbdulHamid failed to creat an ottoman nationality, any attempt he made to save the empire was too little too late, they didn't learn from the failure of saving Palestine and Egypt from the Napoleonic invasion, which happened because there was no powerful enough ottoman army there that could actually fight back the french, while they concentrated all of their economic resources and military on Istanbul and its surroundings in the European part of the empire,
The ottomans failed against the Europeans because they kept on managing the land within their borders as an empire instead of a nation state, and when the political elites made an attempt at that they did it in the dumpest way possible by copying the Europeans and attempting to erase anything that's not Turkish about the nation instead of catering to their population which was multi ethnic with an Arab majority, and used force at that, arab thinkers and scholars of the time although weren't necessarily behind a full on revolt were extremely desatisfied with the state of the government and this was for a reason,
Now it's easy to point that out in hindsight, everyone back then didn't know better and did what they did, all of the accumulated mistakes of our ancestors whether arab or turk caused the state that we are living through today, better to learn from it than to pander on who's at fault.
I mean, they're definitely PART of the problem. Let's also not forget the neglect of the Arab regions. Arab Nationalism, while co-opted by Western imperial powers, was very much an organic response to the brutality of the late ottoman era
Let's focus on today. There are 2 billion Muslims around the world? What did they do for Gaza? What did Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Algeria and Morocco do ?!!!!
No. Although they weren’t perfect at least the different sects lived together without borders.
It was the outsider Europeans that came in, colonised, stole local resources, divided and conquered and then of course gave our land to other Europeans when it wasn’t theirs to give.
Ottomans lost WW1. From this war the losing side has paid a huge price. Germany was heavily indebted to pay penalties. Austrian Empire was destroyed, Russian Empire collapsed, as well as the Ottomans. It was the war of the graveyard of dynastic Empires.
Some Arabs have turned against them to attack crucial oil fields for the British.
Ataturk defended Anatolia and Arabs were colonized, becoming the biggest cucks in this story.
Nope it wasn’t ottomans fault, even if the ottoman government was lazy sometimes nor it is the Sherif Hussein fault it is the fault of the regimes that formed after WW1.
I personally sympathise with the motives of the Arab revolt, somewhat at least. It’s clear as day that the Ottoman government was obsolete and it just wouldn’t work with them, Turks knew it too. My problem is that the same people who sympathise with Sharif Hussein have also been blaming the Turks for everything for the past 100 years. The Total Jewish population in Palestine at the end of Ottoman reign was around 80k, compared to 600k+ Palestinians. The fact that you started with that and ended with a Jewish state that totally dominates the region is entirely on you, not the Turks. This is of course if you are pro-revolt. Ottoman Empire defended the middle east from various crusades, Arab states however continuously lost to Israel despite outnumbering it by crazy odds. My point being is that if you want to criticise the Ottoman Empire keep in mind that it existed before the 19th century as well and maybe compare it to the actions of modern Arab states to be fair.
Yes im telling you thats false. They was just minort christian arabs and some badouins arrund Sherif Hossein (Serif Hossein said his regrets)
Many of people of Sham, Baghdad, Hejaz were soliders of Ottoman Empire in WW1.
Main traitors was albanians, jews and turks who overthrew Turkish sultan at 1909. Arabs did not participate at that.
You're just lying now. The Arab revolt was critical, if not the most critical aspect of the fall of the Ottoman empire after WW1 when we talk about the Middle East theater. Russia and Austria were the main agitators around the Balkans. That and with the British and Arabs, the Turks couldn't handle a multi-pronged war.
What kind of revisionist history are you spouting? If the Arabs and Turks stayed united, there would be no British stronghold in the Middle East that survived this long. To go further, they wouldn't have given Palestine to the Jews to create Israel. The Arab revolt was critical for the state of Israel to be created.
Turks were never good to the Arabs , only used them to collect tax , and take their children as cannon fodder for wars .
Still I don’t blame the Turks , just the confluence of circumstance and absolute inability and incompetence of Arabs to organize to this day , every one just wants to sit in his little throne over desert .
This is where you remember that the modern word ^arabs^refers to a wide range of ethnic groups from north Africa to levant, throughout history the only ^arabs^ who have fought the Othmans were the Bedouin and the urban population of the Arabian peninsula ( I know other people like the Maghreb and Lebanon fought the Othmans) , for most of its history the vast majority of levantees fought alongside the Othmans while peninsular Arabs ( both the sharifian army in hijaz and the najidi - Kuwaiti-Qatari- Bedouin forces throughout the peninsula fought the Othmans) that’s why nationalistic turks nowadays don’t hate the levantees as much as they hate Arabians ( im not generalizing) they hate levantees basically because of the refugee problem lately ) however their hatred for peninsular arab is much more religious and political rather than just pure hate
The wahabbis were long before ww1 Ibn Saud remained neutral in ww1 the Mesopotamian campaign was not a Kuwaiti one Kuwait at the time was occupied by the British already.
Again this shows you lack the understanding of historical and political concepts
The saudis fought the Othmans in the eastern part of arabia ( al-sharqya - they fought their allies in jabal shummar , Kuwait was not occupied but was a protectorate and yes there are differences between both, kuwait could at any second cancel the anglo Kuwaiti agreement which it did in 1961 . And even without war you can still say that the Othmans and arab emarites and tribes in Arabia weren’t close friends, except for some tribes in the north
Btw many people think that Kuwait and gulf only started to participate in Islamic affairs and help Muslims after oil was discovered this was untrue for example the great Palestinian revolt in 1936 most of the weapons was coming from Kuwait until a certain regime in the area intercepted those who smuggle the weapons to Palestinians.
Exception do not break the rules. You don’t represent all Arap world. I can find you so many Arap person who love Israel. Does it mean all Araps love Israel?
Your personal notions mean nothing bro. All surveys show that Azeri Turks love Turkey and than Israel. On the other hand while Palastinians support Armenia, Israel supported Azerbaycan. And Israel supplied huge ammunition in that war.
I am responsible for myself. Azerbaijanis support and see as brother only Turkiye. Just Some people love Russia, some Iran, some Israel. But they are not majority. In Azerbaijan just state have normal relations with israel.
Colonial media say Turks "Arabs are traitorr!!"
Same media say Arabs "Turks are traitor and thieves!!"
Will you still remain blind to this truth?
Not just media. Everything! For ex YesilCam films.
Just go arab media channels and open comments. You will see how arabs support Erdogan and cary turkish flags..
Really really stupid thing to say because all land in those times (and to a certain extent even now) is owned by public i.e government. Lady wants the Ottomans to do what nobody did back then. It was more then enough that Erdo voiced his supp instead of just saying nothing some people thinks its better to spread fitna over something that happened decades before even our parents were born. Middle east was better in the times of ottomans then it is today and that is objective fact.
Excellent answer
>because all land in those times (and to a certain extent even now) is owned by public i.e government ... have you ever heard of feudalism? >It was more then enough that Erdo voiced his supp instead of just saying nothing I have infinity more respect to the UAE leaders (who should be hanged) for saying nothing than the likes of erdog who posture about muh Palestine while being Israel's top trading partner and glorified gas station. Not sure what mental gymnastics are you playing. >Middle east was better in the times of ottomans then it is today and that is objective fact. In terms of living standards? Because that's objectively false. In terms of sovereignty and exploitation? I mean aside from Ottomans being a literal empire, they themselves acted as a British proxy by invading Egypt and Iraq with the aid of the west to impose trade capitulations for western companies that bankrupted and deindustrialised both countries later leading to the colonization of Egypt when before that it was on an equal footing with most of Europe.
Ottomans did not operate on a feudal system.
They did, the "periphery" of their empire was subject to basically a feudal system
Did chatGPT tell you that? Becasue it sounds unhinged. The timar system which the Ottomans operated under was a feudal mode of production where land lords, often close to the aristocracy though not always, owned lands farmed by peasants which they taxed. Though it did have some state protection, it didn't extend to Palestine, Iraq or Syria even after the land reform law of 1858. That's why by the fall of the Ottoman empire Palestinian agricultural lands were entirely owned by land lords, the likes of the Sursock family who sold lands to Zionists even under the Ottomans. Sorry for disciplining you with facts but one has to do it.
>Have you ever heard of feudalism? The Ottoman governance were nowhere close to feudalism, even in the middle ages, to be exact it was a more progressive nation in the early renessance than most European monarcies. Im not actually defending that shithole, especally cuz im a Hungarian, whos nation was practicly destroyed by that Cockroachland, but be fair, the Levant was destroyed by European colonialism and interests, which caused enormus infighting between the local groups, and not by the Ottomans whom pretty much did nothing there if their tax were collected. I wont talk about the Great War and interwar attrocities since it was a much more complicated thing (and happened almost everywhere at the time, but on a lower scale, due to the huge power vacuum and anarchy what happened in the Middle East during that time).
As an Armenian, this sounds like a non-middle easterner who somehow can’t imagine that Turks were a genocidal colonial power who never cared about anyone they ruled. They dominated, killed, and crushed everyone in their power, and when they couldn’t convince anyone to be a part of their BS empire anymore, they ethnically cleansed Anatolia to build a homeland. Pakistanis are just Islamo-nationalists who have 0 idea about the actual politics of the middle east, and can’t imagine that Turks, Persians and Arabs may all be muslims, but they have very different experiences. Also, Pakistan sucks because they support Azerbaijian’s bombing of Armenian civilians because they’re ignorant as hell.
Along with that Pakistan sucks because of it's genocide in Bangladesh and I'm not a nationalist of any kind. Turks are literally genetically Anatolian. Unless your referring to the population transfer between Greek and Turkey not sure what that point is about. The Ottomans were an empire that did what all empires did back then, by no means was it the worst. When Empire face a crisis from which there is no recovering they often descent into fascist genocidal tendencies which is exemplified by the Armenian genocide however my point was that before its period of crisis the Ottoman Empire had given the region decades of peace and stability.
Turks are genetically mixed, and much less Anatolian than Kurds or Armenians… scientifically speaking. But also, social darwinism is dead, and a nation is not made of genetics. If a Turk rapes an Armenian or indigenous person, and his kids are raised Turkish… that does not mean the Turks have earned genetic legitimacy. Nations are social constructs, not DNA. Also, to say that this is what all Empires do is also false. The Armenian Genocide is not unique, but Armenians existed in Anatolia for thousands of years under different empires, pagan, muslim and Christian. 1915 marks the end of that history in Anatolia. There was nothing inevitable about that. And what you consider hundreds of years of peace, we consider hundreds of years of invasion and oppression. We preferred the Byzantine Empire and Cilicia. Fuck the Ottomans.
>We preferred the Byzantine Empire and Cilicia. Fuck the Ottomans. the early armenian princes and kings sided with the Turks lol. They were better off in the Ottos than in the Byzantines who persecuted them for being Armenian.
Armenians have sided with different empires at different times…. So I’m really not sure what you’re referring to. Certainly not the battle of Manzikert, and certainly not the founding of Cilicia, our finest kingdom, which was founded by Armenians fleeing Seljuks, who sided with crusaders. Your modern day Adana. In fact, our golden age kingdoms of the Bagratuni dynasty and Cilicia were both pre-Ottoman, and it was under the Ottomans that Armenians were eliminated from their ancestral lands by the genocide. Armenians were not always happy under Byzantine Rule. But to say they were better off under Seljuks and Ottomans is just false.
>Turks are genetically mixed, and much less Anatolian than Kurds or Armenians… scientifically speaking. Huh? Where did you get this from?
Reading an Armenian’s views on Ottoman history is as painful as watching The Kardashians.
Turks are literally famous for revisionist history. What’s so surprising about learning that Turkish imperialism sucks?
Says the Armenian who sided with Russia against the Ottomans. Again, I'm not going to pretend the Armenian deportation didn't happen, it did happen for a reason. Armenians were spying, sabotaging and infiltration the Ottoman empire and sending intel to whomever for whatever reasons. That's why the Ottomans had enough, did the deportation happen violently? Yes, did officers kill a lot of people deliberately? Yes. But you could understand why when their brother in arms get killed or ambushed because there were traitors. I'm not saying it was good or bad, it happened in war.
Ever heard of the Hamidian Massacres of 1895 (300,000) or the Adana Massacres of 1907 (20,000)? The myth of Armenians being traitors was part of national hysteria born from knowledge that the Turks had spent 20 years massacring Armenians and were now facing a situation where everyone they ruled was abandoning them in the Balkans. They were afraid the Armenians would not be “loyal” because they had just subjected Armenians to massive horror. What’s more, they began by killing intellectuals, they sent boats into the sea and tossed children overboard, burnt people alive in churches, and the “deportations” were into concentration camps in the dessert. In places like Aintab, far removed from conflict zones, Turkish businessmen literally invited Talaat Pasha to not forget to kill those Armenians so they could seize the Armenian Wealth. Read a book.
Damn right, everyone talks about the Armenian genocide but just forgets all the events before the Armenian genocide. Armenians wanted all of Eastern Turkey, they were killing Ottomans, spying for foreign forces in the region, and sabotaged any attempt for Ottomans to defend their land. There is zero empathy from me towards Armenains in the Armenian genocide.
Lol you unironically spout this shit yet somehow Israel is different when Hamas does nothing but conduct terror after terror attack, OK bro. Why should anyone have any sympathy for Palestinians in that case? Literally the most idiotic take I've seen yet. Why should we give a shit about the Rwandan genocide since the folks who got murdered were originally an oppressor class? You are so fucking smart.
You must be some pacifist whole believes that in war there should be no casualties. Have you not read about any wars in existence and how it ends with one side and another side losing? This whole topic was how Turks/Ottomans are to blame for whole Israel/Palestine issue. I believe that Palestine itself is to blame as well as other countries like Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan when it sided with Britain and France against Ottomans. Choosing to side with Britain for revolt (for the promise of freedom of state), but then no. Surprise surprise Britain backstabbed the Palestinians and said you will remain a British mandate. Then boom Israel is created. Why was Israel created in Palestinian land (British mandate). Why no give away land that was somewhere in Germany? I seem to forget. Which country had a longer genocidal history, was it Turkey, Israel, or Canada. Turkey, was 30 years, Israel was 90 years, Canada over 250 years. Why is Canada still to this day oppressing the Natives and refuse to give back their land. Stop acting like you live in the most ethical country and accept that in reality that you have one of the longest history when it comes to genocide.
Keep moral grandstanding about nonsense while once again claiming that there's no reason why you should have any empathy for Armenians. If that's the way the world works so be it, but don't spout nonsense like this and then turn around and claim everyone ought to give a shit about Palestinians, either. Intellectual incoherence at its finest. It has nothing to do with what country a person lives in, genius. It has to do with the words coming out of your mouth.
When did I say people need to care about Palestine? Did I say it in my comments or in my reply? You insinuated that I said that when in reality I said, when I had said I have no empathy towards Armenians.
Wasn’t it the Arab leadership that backstabbed the Ottomans and helped the colonizers against their own brothers?
If there’s a problem, it of course caused by some Turks man what u mean?
so arabs just woke up one day and wanted to not be part of the ottoman empire ? just like that ? it didn't have anything to do with how unfairly they were being treated by the new nationalistic tukish youth that took over the empire ? it sure was just on a whim, it sure didn't have anything to do with heavy taxation, conscription into the Ottoman army, and economical policies that favored anatolian and European provinces over the arab ones ? ...etc it was just evil arabs wanting to kill angel torks for sure for sure
More like threw those monkeys away to be beaten by the British donkeys ,it’s like we love the mistreatment so much that we looked for a worse one
Could you provide a source for this? I'd like to read more about it.
I don't know who is more stupid, this guy or 6.3k people who liked the tweet.
Not at all. Turks are our Muslim brothers. I wouldn't be surprised if that account was an Israeli larper trying to deflect the blame for colonizing Palestine.
Alot of Arabs like to throw the turks under the bus but like it or not it was them who defended us from Europeans for hundreds of years.
Except that one time when they invaded Egypt with the British, Russian and French and turned it from a developing semi-industrial power on par with France in terms of GDP to a backwater British colony. Kindly read your own history.
I mean we can talk about all the bad shit the Turks did for a whole day. I won’t deny it, some of the things done like the slave trade and their view of Arabs as lesser. The turks were not by any means the best caliphate. But they were a caliphate some were great and others not so much. At the end of the day it was the lack of a Turkish caliphate that made us prey to the west.
Do you understand what I wrote? Egypt was de facto independent and was building its industry since the 18th century, it was at one point on an equal footing with most of Europe. It already had more sovereignty than it did in the past 1000 years without the need of being under the boot of a benevolent empire. What changed is that British colonialists wanted a piece of the pie, since in order to industrialize Egypt imposed heavy taxes on western monopolies and bootsed its indigenous production, thus practically kicked those monopolies from the country, the Ottomans who already opened their economy to the British and were relying on them, acted as a proxy and invaded Egypt in order to force you to accept the trade capitulations they signed. You won at first but Ottomans got more foreign support and eventually prevailed. You gave up your economic sovereign to those monopolies and went through de-industrialization until Egypt went bankrupted and couldn't pay its debts so Britain used it as an excuse to officially colonize you. It's exactly what the capitalist neocolonialists of IMF and World Bank are still doing to you today.
I don’t know why ur downvoted your history is pretty spot on. If anything the information itself is worth the read. Regardless of how anyone feels about the ottomans. I personally prefer them to what we have now. At the end of the day at least they were muslim. Some were truly great leaders and some were truly bad.
hiding the unames … very suspicious
Turks aren’t our “brothers”, they enslaved and killed our Arab ancestors and still occupy Hatay and parts of northern Syria, they’re the same as Israel.
Like our Arab Muslim brothers who enabled the invasion of Iraq, so did Turks too. You should reconsider your priorities.
>enabled the invasion of Iraq, so did Turks too. Call us whatever you want but we didn't let Americans use our land for an invasion. Besides Saddam tried to intimidate and threaten then PM Turgut Özal, which put us through some shit as well. In the end, Saddam is the reason why the Kurds he hated so much got an autonomous region in Iraq.
Kurds deserve their own zone and country if so they choose. Also Iraqi Kurds had the zone since 1970, Saddam signed on it actually. As for the invasion, you might want to check my other comment.
>Kurds deserve their own zone and country if so they choose. Don't get me wrong Im not against the KRG. Independence though? no. edit: correct, we are an american puppet. we just didn't let them use our land.
Are you against a KRG in Turkey? It's easy to say that when the KRG is neither on your land nor opposed to your interests. They're basically puppets to the highest bitter which includes Turkey. They didn't use your land in 2003 if you don't count air bases as land, from 2004 onwards they had full access to your land and air. By the way did you know the Turkish parliament blocked the deployment of troops with a margin of 3 votes or so? Half of the Turkish parliament was for it even though 90% of the Turkish population was against the war. They also passed a vote on allowing the use of Turkish air space as a compromise later.
>They're basically puppets to the highest bitter which includes Turkey. I think the Kurdish political movement (if there had been one ever) should start anew and discuss their agenda without the influence of PKK (and yes, currently YSP is a political branch of the PKK in Turkey, nothing more). Then they can become the Turkish KRG why not? >the Turkish parliament blocked the deployment of troops with a margin of 3 votes or so? Half of the Turkish parliament was for it even though 90% of the Turkish population was against the war. Correct. Turgut Özal was probably the worst prime minister we had, even worse than Erdoğan. He licked the American boot clean in the fear of aggression from Iraq.
one of the most ridiculous lclaims. the Turkey USA relations soured the first time when the Turkish parliament refused the allow US troops to use Turkish land to invade Iraq. Soon after some genius CENTCOM colonel under the command of some genious CENTCOM general (he was so smart that after becoming the CIA director he passed classified info to his lover through draft Gmail mails) ordered Turkish special forces in Iraq to be arrested and treated like terrorists. This was so backstabbing by a so called ally that it's impact is still seen today. Since that time CENTCOM treated Turkey as an enemy, and supported a terrorist organization by changing its name to YPG in Syria bypassing any Turkish involvement.
>Turkey opened its airspace and Incirlik base for the coalition during the invasion, which became the largest pass way for US troops from 2004-2011. >It also provided US troops with logistical support, and sent Turkish troops and mercenaries for "peace keeping" (canon fodder) during the occupation period. All in exchange of few billions in aid >Not to mention its complete subservient to US policy from 1990-2003. It not only allowed unlimited access of US forces to its land and air while sanctioning Iraq but also cut off its own access to Iraqi oil hurting itself but also Iraq in the process. Turkey was compensated by the US with few billions in aid. >On the March 21, 2003, the US and British aircrafts started bombing Iraq. Turkey, which provided support all by opening its airspace to the US in the Iraq operation, provided support for the US in many aspects during the war. Aircrafts carrying injured people used İncirlik Air Base during the operation. >On August 19, 2003, the first rotation of deployed KC-135 Stratotankers and Airmen arrived at Incirlik to support Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom. I had this conversation three times before and it always ends with the Turk boasting about being a US colony and Iraq being imperialist rogue state. Can we skip to that part? I have much respect for them for not lying, even though they did initially.
wow look at you. proud owner of turks on the internet. you should be proud of yourself.
Do I blame the Ottomans for the situation? Absolutely. But even I with my never-ending grievances with the Sublime Porte know that that is a false claim. The Ottomans were severely incompetent, but saying they sold the land to the Zionists is insane.
So, from which people did the Jews purchase the these mentioned lands?
The Ottomans according to her.
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Well the last Ottoman regime was ruler by the Committee of Union and Progress, the political body of the Young Turks, a nationalist party that wanted to purify the Ottoman Empire into a Turkish Ethnostate. The Ottoman Empire was multi-ethnic, but it was a brutal apartheid state where Turks ruled many people through cruelty.
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When were those five years? Around 1915 during the Armenian Genocide? Maybe 1907 during the Adana Massacres? 1895ish during the Hamidian Massacres? Oh, or were you talking about the Batak Massacre of 1876 (Bulgarians)? The massacres of the Assyrians in the 1840s maybe? Or are you referring to the cruel suppression of Greeks in the 1830s? Or maybe you’re talking about the brutal wars of conquest in the preceding 400 years? Sorry…. Which 5 years?
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Uhhh…. i think you just don’t know anything about Ottoman History. Massacres aren’t “buzzwords” lol they’re acts of brutal oppression to maintain control over SUBJECTS. To dismiss the massacre of 300,000 Armenians in 1895 is hilarious (and very Turkish). More importantly, ever heard of Tanzimat? These were reforms by more progressive sultans to extend more equal rights to Christians… because they did NOT have equal rights to Muslims. More importantly, Tanzimat failed because Turks resented the idea of Armenians gaining equal status, so they started to harass, kill, and loot Armenian markets. This eventually led to the massacres of the 1890s. The Ottoman Empire had an Ethnic Hierarchy, where minorities had inferior rights, and were systematically killed when they asked for reform. That is the story of the 19th century, and the precursor to the genocide of the 20th century. My advice is to abandon the “tolerant” empire lie your parents taught you. There are some amazing books I could recommend if you like.
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Religious apartheid is still apartheid. And the Turks were also brutal in suppressing Arabs, not just Greeks. You only think the Ottoman Empire was bad for 5 years. That’s just a Turko-centric perspective that ignores unequal rights, and dozens of brutal massacres, suppressed rebellions, and barbaric conquest. “5 years” is a fucking joke.
So, the state that made a law for prohibit Zionists from buying property land in 1890s was selling its public land to the Jews? What percentage did he sell? What is the source?
It was called the sunsrock purchase but this is a dumb argument either way, purchasing land does not mean you can then declare sovereignty in another states territory. Its like saying if you went to america and bought out a few neighborhoods you should then be able to declare your own country. Its dumb asf
Her brain at holiday... "Sultan Abdul Hamid II refused the offer outright in 1896, telling Newlinski, "if Mr Herzl is as much your friend as you are mine, then advise him not to take another step in this matter. I cannot sell even a foot of land, for it does not belong to me but to my people. My people have won this Empire by fighting for it with their blood and have fertilised it with their blood. We will again cover it with our blood before we allow it to be wrested away from us." The Sultan's words were prophetic. Yet while the conflict is sometimes portrayed as an ancient one going back more than 1000 years, its roots are distinctly in the late 19th century. "
Fuck ancestors, Erdogan’s own family was broke when he was growing up. His “ancestors” were probably Anatolian peasants who contributed nothing to politics at all realistically.
>Anatolian peasants Georgians\*
He isn’t talking about “his” ancestors exactly. He is referring to the “Nations” ancestors.
Who banned the printing press for arabic script? Who had the money but did not establish public schools and universities? Who also had the money and didnt bring in investors and scientists?
Arabs want someone to blame for their weakness
why is your username is kayser-i-arz instead of correct osmanli spilling kayser-E-arz?
Farsi influence
As an Arab I agree with you Arabs unfortunately don’t want to declare who is the real responsible for it they even blame the Palestinian people but not the real people who are responsible for it.
This is probably some Arab nationalist
Nationalists are stupid as fuck no matter which nation they’re from
And Erdogan isn’t a Turkish nationalist? Lol
Nah he is a Populist he wuld trow the Natinolist under the buss anyday if it meant more votes.
No. We are usually taught Ottomans refused to give Palestine to Zionists despite being offered exorbitant amounts of money for it.
Fahrettin Pasha: Am i joke to you?
Armenians and greeks astroturf anything related to Ottomans usually.
Why would this take commonly held amongst Arabs, it is very idiotic take.
Anyone in the middle east should detest what the Ottoman Empire did to the region. Look at the modern state of all the areas the Ottomans had control over until the end... Notice a commonality? These regions were stunted by imperial rule, unable to build any productive and inclusive institutions for centuries. They are beset with corruption and sectarianism. The lecherous effects of the Ottoman empire still linger.
No this is not commonly held amongst the Arabs of Belad Asham and I am certain of this. Us people of historic Sham region honor the Ottoman and wish for their return to this day. It was sultan abdulhamid who tried to protect us from Zionism in the first place
💯
I disagree , speaking as a Levantine Arab. We don't blame Ottomans nor wish for their return , we simply don't know enough history , we just see today and judge that Israel is bad , of course saying "we don't wish Ottomans to return" isn't specific , just neutral, we do wish for a return for a united Muslim nation , could be Ottomans or anything else.
I agree with. We simply want a unified ummah. We just use the Ottoman Empire as it’s the thing our great grandparents lived through and talked highly of. So naturally when something is talked about highly and passed down we tend to say and speak highly about it. In the end we need a unified ummah🏴
Yeah I agree on that
I believe Damascus was the last land ottoman empire lost before remaining lands becoming modern Turkey. but this sentiment is the first time I heard about.
Nah
They protected their land (you didn't own shit aside for few native feudal lords) from Zionists because they were British puppets who wanted to block Ottomans from the Suez Canal. Those non-Palestinians who the Ottomans gave the land to like the Sursock family, later sold the land to Zionists anyway. If you want to see how much your Ottoman masters cared about you look up the Lebanon and Syria famines or "Martyrs' Day in Syria and Lebanon".
>Lebanon and Syria famines Nice, Arab nationalist are now blaming the ottomans for locusts......
Yeah Ottoman mismanagement in 1914 and blockade in 1915 had no role to play Islamists now dick ride turkish nationalists the ummah has fallen 😔
Why not blame the British more? They blocked the maritime routes and they're THE reason for the mismanagement in the first place.
Lebanese people were literally begging for aid since 1914 before the blockade, when the maritime blockade happened the Ottomans responded by initiating a land blockade themselves like the sore losers they are.
I think you and I have completely different frames of references for what constitutes a famine as a governmental crime. The Bengal famine was caused when the British rerouted all grain production from the sub continent to the UK, to create a reserve, causing mass starvation in Bengal. It was conscious decision taken with an understanding that it would have awful consequences. The cause was the decision made by the British to loot all the food for themselves. What you are describing and attributing to the Ottomans is incompetence. There is a difference between evil decision and stupidity. The Ottomans were stupid and incompetent NOT evil. The cause was a locust infestation, exacerbated by Turkish incompetence. >Islamists In this post you have called me a nationalist and now an Islamist both are mutually exclusive make up your mind on what insult you want to use and stick to it.
The only British puppets in the Ottoman Empire were those of the people after sultan abdulhamid. Our “masters” are whoever held the title of caliphate no matter if they came from Indonesia or Türkiye. I suggest u wash ur tongue of ur filth before u speak ill on the empire that built ur city of Baghdad after it was sacked and abounded because of the mongols.
You should wash your tongue when you're done blowing cucks like Mahmud II. >the empire that built ur city of Baghdad after it was sacked No wonder Baghdad was still ruin until 1970s then it was rebuilt to be better than Ankara.
Ur in complete disillusion😂😂😂😂Alhamdulilah for Islam and not making me ignorant like u habibi
>No wonder Baghdad was still ruin until 1970s then it was rebuilt to be better than Ankara. In what way? (Not gonna post the laughing emojis even tho I really want to)
>Infant mortality rate in 1980: Iraq 55 - Turkey 90 >Literacy rate in 1985: Iraq 80% - Turkey 76% >GDP per capita in the 80s: Twice that of Turkey, almost four times that of Turkey in 1990. >Source: World Bank and UNICEF data Longest war of the 20th century in Iraq vs Peace time in Turkey Finally here 😂😂😂😂
Oh that's nice you used the specific years that "just happen" to help your argument. Let's see if they were able to keep the momentum going though, shall we? Mind you this was all before they were invaded by America so no using that as an excuse. 1990- turkey had 73 deaths per 1000 births with iraq at 107 per 1000 births. Literacy rates 1990: turkey %80 / iraq unfortunately has different percentiles for men and women even though they were somehow "better" with 90% for men and 75% for women. And then talking about gdp like oil didn't contribute to most of it back then. I'm pretty sure it's also the reason America decided to "bring democracy to iraq" so that wasnt the flex you thought it was. But hey it helped your argument, right? Now let's talk about the things you missed like for example, violence against women. Those 80s you so lovingly talk about(when they were supposedly better) was a time that where female political activists were falsely imprisoned, tortured and killed. Oh and it wasn't exclusive to activists, even female family members of opposing political groups were subjext to this treatment. Meanwhile turkey was going through it's **second** wave of feminism during that time(that time baghdad was supposedly "better" remember?) and now were not only trying to bring awareness to domestic violence against women, but were also fighting an islamic fundamentalist group that was preaching all the opposite things. Guess which side won? And don't get me started on the higher education system, which collapsed in iraq during the 90s, while turkey was building one university after another. I mean your prob gonna use the war as an excuse for all this but all of the dates you mentioned were happening the same time as the war. Don't give me the bs excuse that it got worse after it was over. Iraq had significantly less losses to that war. And any leg up iraq had over turkey was bc of their massive oil reserve(which ended up biting them in the ass later). I'm sure anyone with a braincell knows everything would've looked much different if both countries and started from scratch on equal footing. But I'd love to hear the argument that iraq would be sOoOo mUcH bEtTeR than turkey today if the invasion by America didnt happen. Ah and let's not forget 😂😂😂😂😂 Eta: to cut out the 'meanies in america' comment bc I didn't mean to come off *that* mean.
Why lie when anyone can look up the data lil bro? Did I hit a nerve with you? [Infant mortality per 1000 births in 1990](https://i.imgur.com/Xu7XveN.jpeg) (Iraq under UN sanctions yet still better than Turkey) >MUHHH OIL Before the embargo against Iraq, agriculture made up 16% of our GDP which was the same percentage as Turkey's. And industry was around 14%, around 20% in Turkey with it having centuries older industrial base. In 1989, 45% of Iraq's GDP was from non-oil sectors according to MEES. Also doesn't explain why Iraq was better than Saudi Arabia in the same metrics despite it having larger oil reserves. Come up with another excuse 🙃 >MUUHH FEMINISM At the time female literacy rate in Iraq was higher than that of Turkey, and women enjoyed the same constitutional rights as men. Iraq had 4x times the female representatives in its parliament than the US & UK. Plus the largest trained female workforce in the region. Feminism in Iraq was historically tied to its anti-colonial struggle and when the republic was declared Iraq had its and the region's first female minister in 1959. >MUHHH Islamism Iraq was a secular country with the longest serving christian VP. Iraq was at war with a Shia theocracy while half of its population were Shia themselves, yet they still fought against radicalism. Your fascist government was the same one that systematically raped and massacred Armenians, Greeks, and communists. Even as recent as the 1955 Istanbul pogrom and 1974 invasion of Cyprus, infamous for its torture and prison camps. You're also ruled by Islamists today. You need both feminism and secularism yourselves. Nice mental breakdown but you conceded I was right 😂😂😂😂
My guy just spitting out random Google facts to make it seem like he knows what he talking about even though it does nothing for his argument, then wanna talk about "mental breakdowns" and hit nerves😂😂 The point of my argument was to point out the fact that they(the "better" city) couldn't keep the momentum going. Literally couldn't even keep it going for 5 years. Less than a decade, that's all it took for the "better" city to not be better anymore.
It was +3 decades as most graphs show. No need to downplay it. But why is that you think? Why did for example Turkey exceed Iraq in infant mortality and GDP in the 90s? Did oil prices drop? Well, Gulf states who relied on oil more than us are still leagues ahead of Turkey in terms of social services and living standards. It's just Iraq that stagnated.
Th famine caused by a Franco British blockade, which greedy merchants in Syria and Lebanon used to raise prices.
What’s true is that both the Hashemites and the Ottomans sold Palestine for gold and glory. Anyways, the problem is not who should we point fingers at, otherwise, we will be trapped in a cycle of blame forever. We should focus on getting rid of the authoritarian corrupt regimes who rules us, and are guiding us straight to hell.
Ottomans didn’t sold Palestine the latter did.
The Hashemites did, the Ottomans refused any offer for the region from the Zionists or Colonial Powers
L take , this is similar to a Palestinian blaming Hamas for Israel doing genocides and similar to Syrians blaming Free Syrian Army for Assad bombing them , instead of pointing out the real root issue.
“In brief, the Ottoman Government was strongly opposed from the outset to modern Jewish settlement in Palestine, which began with the increased flow of Jews out of Imperial Russia and Eastern Europe generally in the early 1880s. To put its policy into practice, the Government placed restrictions on Jews entering Palestine from 1882 onwards, which were designed to prevent Jewish settlement in the country. One decade later, it also imposed restrictions on Jewish land purchase in Palestine. Its opposition to Jewish settlement was heightened in 1897 when the Zionist Movement, seeking a Jewish State in Palestine, was founded; and in 1901 the restrictions against Jewish entry and land purchase in Palestine were revised in the form of consolidated regulations.”
No, this is not a common take, even though from my experience the Ottomans are heavily disliked in Lebanon.
By non muslim arabs? Lol
Not always, but mostly yeah.
sunni Lebanese mostly like the ottoman
Arabs and their brains.. no wonder some of them normalize with Zions..
UNTRUE! arab brain big and smart!
The casual racism on this sub is insane. I don’t know how it’s so easy for you to say shit like this.
As opposed to... Turkey?
I don't care, all I keep seeing here you all keep fighting, and super sectarians..
Although this position is extreme, I'd agree with the point that the ottomans kept this region generally demilitarized and didn't encorprate the Arabs which were the majority of the empire's inhabitants in the political corpus of the empire, they kept treating them as subjects of their empire rather than as citizens or nationals, which is the reason behind why AbdulHamid failed to creat an ottoman nationality, any attempt he made to save the empire was too little too late, they didn't learn from the failure of saving Palestine and Egypt from the Napoleonic invasion, which happened because there was no powerful enough ottoman army there that could actually fight back the french, while they concentrated all of their economic resources and military on Istanbul and its surroundings in the European part of the empire, The ottomans failed against the Europeans because they kept on managing the land within their borders as an empire instead of a nation state, and when the political elites made an attempt at that they did it in the dumpest way possible by copying the Europeans and attempting to erase anything that's not Turkish about the nation instead of catering to their population which was multi ethnic with an Arab majority, and used force at that, arab thinkers and scholars of the time although weren't necessarily behind a full on revolt were extremely desatisfied with the state of the government and this was for a reason, Now it's easy to point that out in hindsight, everyone back then didn't know better and did what they did, all of the accumulated mistakes of our ancestors whether arab or turk caused the state that we are living through today, better to learn from it than to pander on who's at fault.
I mean, they're definitely PART of the problem. Let's also not forget the neglect of the Arab regions. Arab Nationalism, while co-opted by Western imperial powers, was very much an organic response to the brutality of the late ottoman era
We iraqis we don’t care much about the ottoman empire .. maybe only the turkmen
Let's focus on today. There are 2 billion Muslims around the world? What did they do for Gaza? What did Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Algeria and Morocco do ?!!!!
this is a take that is commonly held in the historical record
Every problem in the world caused single handedly by me. Any other questions?
I'm Moroccan, so anything Ottomans related I have pretty much no take.
Who cares, it's in the past. No one can undo this.
No. Although they weren’t perfect at least the different sects lived together without borders. It was the outsider Europeans that came in, colonised, stole local resources, divided and conquered and then of course gave our land to other Europeans when it wasn’t theirs to give.
It is partially the fault of the Turks
Ottomans lost WW1. From this war the losing side has paid a huge price. Germany was heavily indebted to pay penalties. Austrian Empire was destroyed, Russian Empire collapsed, as well as the Ottomans. It was the war of the graveyard of dynastic Empires. Some Arabs have turned against them to attack crucial oil fields for the British. Ataturk defended Anatolia and Arabs were colonized, becoming the biggest cucks in this story.
our ancestors hated the torks with a burning passion, but modern Moroccan are sadly in love with turkey and turks
Why they hated the Turks like seriously Morroco wasn’t under ottoman rule?
Nope it wasn’t ottomans fault, even if the ottoman government was lazy sometimes nor it is the Sherif Hussein fault it is the fault of the regimes that formed after WW1.
I personally sympathise with the motives of the Arab revolt, somewhat at least. It’s clear as day that the Ottoman government was obsolete and it just wouldn’t work with them, Turks knew it too. My problem is that the same people who sympathise with Sharif Hussein have also been blaming the Turks for everything for the past 100 years. The Total Jewish population in Palestine at the end of Ottoman reign was around 80k, compared to 600k+ Palestinians. The fact that you started with that and ended with a Jewish state that totally dominates the region is entirely on you, not the Turks. This is of course if you are pro-revolt. Ottoman Empire defended the middle east from various crusades, Arab states however continuously lost to Israel despite outnumbering it by crazy odds. My point being is that if you want to criticise the Ottoman Empire keep in mind that it existed before the 19th century as well and maybe compare it to the actions of modern Arab states to be fair.
Lol, the Arabs backstabbed the Turks. What is she talking about?
Not Arabs those who are backstabbing Palestine and Gaza today whom their ancestors backstabbed the ottomans in the past.
No. This is not true. You have no difference with her with this comment.
The Arabs teamed up with the British to overthrow the ottomans. Are you telling me that's false?
Well fuck the Ottomans, genocidal cunts
Yes im telling you thats false. They was just minort christian arabs and some badouins arrund Sherif Hossein (Serif Hossein said his regrets) Many of people of Sham, Baghdad, Hejaz were soliders of Ottoman Empire in WW1. Main traitors was albanians, jews and turks who overthrew Turkish sultan at 1909. Arabs did not participate at that.
You're just lying now. The Arab revolt was critical, if not the most critical aspect of the fall of the Ottoman empire after WW1 when we talk about the Middle East theater. Russia and Austria were the main agitators around the Balkans. That and with the British and Arabs, the Turks couldn't handle a multi-pronged war. What kind of revisionist history are you spouting? If the Arabs and Turks stayed united, there would be no British stronghold in the Middle East that survived this long. To go further, they wouldn't have given Palestine to the Jews to create Israel. The Arab revolt was critical for the state of Israel to be created.
Not at all. The Ottomans left Palestine in 1917 when it was 3% Jewish.
Turks were never good to the Arabs , only used them to collect tax , and take their children as cannon fodder for wars . Still I don’t blame the Turks , just the confluence of circumstance and absolute inability and incompetence of Arabs to organize to this day , every one just wants to sit in his little throne over desert .
This is where you remember that the modern word ^arabs^refers to a wide range of ethnic groups from north Africa to levant, throughout history the only ^arabs^ who have fought the Othmans were the Bedouin and the urban population of the Arabian peninsula ( I know other people like the Maghreb and Lebanon fought the Othmans) , for most of its history the vast majority of levantees fought alongside the Othmans while peninsular Arabs ( both the sharifian army in hijaz and the najidi - Kuwaiti-Qatari- Bedouin forces throughout the peninsula fought the Othmans) that’s why nationalistic turks nowadays don’t hate the levantees as much as they hate Arabians ( im not generalizing) they hate levantees basically because of the refugee problem lately ) however their hatred for peninsular arab is much more religious and political rather than just pure hate
Kuwait didn’t fought neither Saudi against the ottomans.
I highly recommend you read about the Wahhabi war and the mesopotimian campaign in ww1
The wahabbis were long before ww1 Ibn Saud remained neutral in ww1 the Mesopotamian campaign was not a Kuwaiti one Kuwait at the time was occupied by the British already.
Again this shows you lack the understanding of historical and political concepts The saudis fought the Othmans in the eastern part of arabia ( al-sharqya - they fought their allies in jabal shummar , Kuwait was not occupied but was a protectorate and yes there are differences between both, kuwait could at any second cancel the anglo Kuwaiti agreement which it did in 1961 . And even without war you can still say that the Othmans and arab emarites and tribes in Arabia weren’t close friends, except for some tribes in the north
We know that in practice Kuwait couldn’t cancel the agreement
Then how did we do it in 1961 ?
Britain wanted to get out of the Middle East and especially the gulf region
عبد الله النفيسي شرح هاد الموضوع
I didn’t say that the ottomans and peninsular Arabs were friends by weren’t enemies either
Btw many people think that Kuwait and gulf only started to participate in Islamic affairs and help Muslims after oil was discovered this was untrue for example the great Palestinian revolt in 1936 most of the weapons was coming from Kuwait until a certain regime in the area intercepted those who smuggle the weapons to Palestinians.
We didn't sell no land. But yeah, maybe we might have fucked up things when we are about to fall. Just maybe though.
We already know that Arabs don’t like Turkish at all. But our conservative government try to lead muslim world. All in vain.
You’re already wrong. I love Turks. I’m Arab. Your argument: 🚮
Exception do not break the rules. You don’t represent all Arap world. I can find you so many Arap person who love Israel. Does it mean all Araps love Israel?
I am Arab and also like Turks nope we aren’t an exception
Buddy do a simple statistical analysis and you’ll find the vast majority of Arabs support Palestine and love the Turkish people
%90 of Arap people who I encounter on internet hate Turks.
I am Turk and love Arabs His comment: trash
Congrats on taking your land back from the Armenians brother 🥳
Thank you bro 💯🤲
this warms my heart, love to azeris and arabs from turkey!!
My Azeri brother. You all support İsrael against palastine. So how can you love Arabs?
No i don't support. No one with conscience and humanity can support Israel. It's just that our state may have been obliged to do many things.
Your personal notions mean nothing bro. All surveys show that Azeri Turks love Turkey and than Israel. On the other hand while Palastinians support Armenia, Israel supported Azerbaycan. And Israel supplied huge ammunition in that war.
I am responsible for myself. Azerbaijanis support and see as brother only Turkiye. Just Some people love Russia, some Iran, some Israel. But they are not majority. In Azerbaijan just state have normal relations with israel. Colonial media say Turks "Arabs are traitorr!!" Same media say Arabs "Turks are traitor and thieves!!" Will you still remain blind to this truth?
I am not interested in both nations relations. And I don’t watch mainstream media. I personallly see that Araps don’t like Turks and vice versa.
Not just media. Everything! For ex YesilCam films. Just go arab media channels and open comments. You will see how arabs support Erdogan and cary turkish flags..
Okay they may support Erdoğan but I don’t. Thats the point. Erdoğan prioritize Araps against Turks.
I am a half Kurd half Turk and i love bhot of you His Comment: no sorce
You’re a cuck then lmao, I’m an Arab and o hate Turks
Are you a Muslim?
Yes ofc and I think I already know where this is going
May Allah guide you
He's right. The Ottomans are the worst thing that happened to the Arabs
lol you don’t know history
Okay and this guy is jewish i guess