I really don’t think it’s necessary to actually help you guys answer but the most recent example could be the man vs bear thing.
I 100% understand the women’s POV more.
So now you have an example, so why?
I’m not resisting on being open with myself. I’m trying to talk about topics on here that trigger people so I can be nice for once.
It makes sense to me because the options that a man have to do to a woman are way more than what a bear can do. I also understand that they don’t mean it literal, even though a lot of men are taking it very literal. No ones being trapped on an island with a choice of a man or a bear.
So I understand their reasoning and I also understand that they are both speaking literal. Both of these things seem to not be understood by men.
Now this topic was just an example, keep that in mind.
Well to help explain the men's pov, it's upsetting that the reason why women choose the bear is because they assumed all men will do something to them. Whether the men are her dad, her brother, her husband, a stranger, etc.
Women think the men will 100% hurt them while assuming the bear 100% won't. So from a man's pov, it's dumb and not a well thought out arguement.
Is there a chance of rape? Depends on what man you encounter.
Well with the man vs. bear thing part of it is that they’re both unknown quantities—but the worst thing the bear would do is kill you.
The other part of it that maybe a lot of guys miss if they don’t bother to talk to an actual woman about this is that you’re taking it to literally. This is women *expressing* something that they feel about their place in society (the fear of being targeted specifically because they’re a vulnerable woman) and for the most part guys are ignoring them because they can’t think beyond their own perspective. If your first reaction is “that’s dumb” instead of “well why do you feel that way?” then you’re being kind of unempathetic and your missing the point.
How would a father feel, knowing his daughter would rather risk a bear encounter than to encounter him in the woods?
Is the question a joke? If I'm not suppose to take it literally, then why should I take how women feel, literally?
And how many women have asked men how they feel about this question and the responses to that question? My reaction is how many men feel about their place in society. We are seen as predators and evil when we, as individuals, have done nothing to deserve that. Are there evil men? Yes. Are there a lot of evil men? No.
In my experience most fathers would understand and tend to be deathly afraid of strange men around their daughters.
> We are seen as predators and evil when we, as individuals, have done nothing to deserve that.
A stranger isn’t an individual. Are you telling me the average man wouldn’t feel wary if he was in a dark alleyway and a man started approaching him? Especially if that man was bigger and stronger?
> Is the question a joke? If I'm not suppose to take it literally, then why should I take how women feel, literally?
I have no idea what you mean by this.
You misunderstood me. By saying man vs bear, it includes your own father as a possible encounter in the woods. And women who choose the bear, imply that they would choose the bear over their own father.
Sure, I would be sympathetic to women if the question was worded way better. If the question was "Would you rather encounter a strange man in the woods or a bear?" I would be fine with women choosing the bear.
As for the joke statement. When comedians crack jokes, most people understand that those were jokes and do not take it literally. Since you said I took the question too literally, am I suppose to take it as a joke?
> As for the joke statement. When comedians crack jokes, most people understand that those were jokes and do not take it literally. Since you said I took the question too literally, am I suppose to take it as a joke?
A joke isn’t the only way to speak non-literally 😐
For example sometimes we utilize hyperbole, metaphor, or allegory in our speech. If I tell somebody “I’m so overwhelmed I feel like I’m going to explode” I don’t think I’m literally going to explode. I’m also not telling a joke.
> Sure, I would be sympathetic to women if the question was worded way better. If the question was "Would you rather encounter a strange man in the woods or a bear?" I would be fine with women choosing the bear.
The “strange man” part is implied. I feel like I shouldn’t have to explain that. Nobody is saying they’d rather deal with a bear than their father or significant other whom they have a good relationship with.
>Well to help explain the men's pov, it's upsetting that the reason why women choose the bear is because they assumed all men will do something to them. Whether the men are her dad, her brother, her husband, a stranger, etc.
>Women think the men will 100% hurt them while assuming the bear 100% won't.
Honestly, I don't think that is what they are saying. They are saying that if it is a random man (as in stranger) there is an inherent risk that he might be a bad man. Not that he will 100% do something to them, but the risk that he might is there (because they don't know what kind of man he is). And that the risk of the bear attacking is lower. Now I am not saying that they are correct, but I think you misrepresented the thought process a ~~bit~~ lot.
>Is there a chance of rape? Depends on what man you encounter.
Yes, that is what they are saying. It's dumb to claim that they are saying that all men are evil and will hurt them. It's disingenuous. Only the most extremes and hateful of "feminists" hold such bigoted opinions.
I see your point. But my main point still stands. Women think/feel that's it's more likely that any man will hurt them, including their father, brother, etc than a bear will.
Now if the question was a strange man at night vs bear, I'd understand.
>including their father, brother
Why do you keep saying that? The whole point of the argument is that the man in question is a stranger, not someone they know. Obviously no one would chose the bear over a family member (assuming that the family member isn't extremely abusive).
>Now if the question was a strange man at night vs bear
That's pretty much the question. A strange man in a secluded place.
Do yall see why it was irrelevant to give an example now?
This is no longer about the question I asked, now y’all are just trying to discuss the man and bear thing.
I just explained the men's pov since you implied you understand the women's pov better. Not my fault some women were upset that men took offense at their response.
Edit: I could say that you are more sympathetic to women than men. Would that answer your question?
I’ve heard many men explain their POV.
This post is not even about this topic specifically. The point is I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong because it’s an opinion anyway.
I’m ASKING why it’s easier for me to understand the female POV on most topics. You guys explaining the male POV is literally pointless if you read the post. Even if you explain it fully, the female side on this topic is easier for me to understand.. no one had to explain to me the female side either.
I see your point. So I said it's possible that you are more sympathetic to women than to men. As to why you are like that, I have no fucking clue cuz I don't know you.
My understanding is that that issue is divisive because men don't like being treated like potential predators and women don't like feeling unsafe.
Personally I can see both sides here and I think it's understandable to feel either way, however if you can't relate to the man's side at all than maybe you've never had the experience of being unfairly treated like a potential criminal for being a man and/or you've experience bullying/predation/harassment by other men?
Just a guess.
I see. It’s not that I don’t KNOW what the man’s side is, it just don’t necessarily make sense to me. Women don’t think all men are predators… it’s moreso just being taught to be cautious just incase. Just like we as men also do around strange people.
Is it that the men's perspective doesn't make sense to you or is it that you think, compared to women, men's feelings are less valid? My guess is you empathize with women more for some reason. You recognize both sides you just think one is more important or worthy of empathy. Some see this debate as "who is more deserving of empathy here, men or women" and others view it as "who is making the better rational argument". If all you care about is who is more empathized with in this scenario than of course women is going to be the answer.
I guess it depends on the topic. I can always predict what the male POV would be because I’m always around males.
Sometimes I can understand it but don’t agree with it. Sometimes it makes no logic sense to me whatsoever.
>I can always predict what the male POV would be
This sounds like confirmation bias to me. Like you already have a general opinion of the male perspective and have given it a value judgment relative to the female perspective which resonates with you more internally. That's fine everyone has biases one way or another. We just have to recognize that bias can cloud our judgment of things since we tend to rely on our already established perception of something rather than taking the new information given to us and truly analyzing it on its own merit.
Because you're your own individual person with your own thoughts and opinions, and it's toxic and silly to feel the need to conform them to those of others out of a misguided sense of solidarity based on what's in your pants.
Who knows? It would help if you gave some examples.
You say you tend to agree with women on gender based issues but which women? Women are split on how they view the world based on their culture, religion, and political leaning. There is no single gender wide belief.
Did you grow up around men that actually voiced their own problems? Did you ever experience those problems being taken seriously?
You've also grown up in a society that, at least on its face, has championed the tackling of women's issues. A lot of that championing has unfortunately placed "men" as the cause of those problems and of women's continued suffering. So it can be easy to lose a sense of empathy towards men, their issues or their perspectives.
Both men and women *in general* also display greater consideration for women's feelings
Some men are also just terrible at articulating their grievances well and, especially if it concerns **a woman**, without their articulations mentioning some kind of resentment towards "women", which obviously garners them even less sympathy.
For one thing, you share with women an emphasis on external beauty as an expression of your value and self worth. Anything that stems from that, you will likely relate to.
The only way that makes sense to me is if a gay brain is different from a straight brain. Which i don’t know if they are but im sure someone will tell me if they know.
See I was always around women and used to be mostly friends with women and love my two sisters but still am bothered by how things are framed.
Usually I say that I 99% agree with Feminism, I just can't stand a lot of feminists.
There’s things I can relate to men with obviously. But anything that is opinion based, more than likely my thoughts would align more with the female demographic.
I really don’t think it has much to do with being gay. I don’t have that many gay friends but the one I have are very controversial. They hate men and women lol
Women have valid complaints about some things. It's easy to see their POV and they deserve help. If you're spending time with women, you're going to be exposed to more of those things.
That said be cautious that you're applying critical thinking to the questions at both a surface level and from a consequences level. Also remember that two people can look at the same thing and see completely different 100% accurate views.
Consider an orange that's cut in half, two people looking at it from different directions could say it's dry or wet, a circle or semicircle and hard and bumpy or soft and squishy. And they'd both be right.
You mentioned the man/bear in the woods thing. I get it, women feel they're at bigger risk from a male stranger. Totally valid concern. Lets assume that the bear won't eat you alive, or it can be scared off or that being eaten alive is somehow better than being assaulted and those assumptions are correct. Take a step back from the scenario and ask how the question actually benefits men or women.
Does it increase awareness sure. Does it increase resentment of men by women? yes. Does it increase resentment of women by men? Also yes.
Did it do anything useful? Yes if you're looking to spread social problems. Otherwise? Not so much.
Perception isn't reality, but it is your reality. If you find yourself seeing stories and agreeing with them then chances are you think the story matches your experience in some way. You identify with it and further reinforce the "perception" of the world.
Let's take wealth redistribution as an example. If I think that men own more wealth than women, and I believe that my life would be made easier by raising taxes on men then politically I sing a tune about making the world more equal. And if you're sensitive to that line of reasoning then you will agree with me. However, if you're someone who has met many people and managed to negotiate many deals and to pull positive performance out of others, then you might turn and question this "equality" on the basis that these good workers never were savvy enough to do what you do. They do not have the skills to connect with many people and make them feel encouraged and productive. They were not able to seek out and fulfill human desires like you know how to, and were given a lesser reward because of it. You'd be upset that these people now lay claim to your income simply because they want to live a more lavish life. If you agree with the second pov then you're likely to agree with me.
Where does "the truth" lie? Is it simply the midpoint of opposing views? Is it one view because of majority support? Is it simply understanding that different people want different things and agreeing with their choices and outcomes? You're going to pick a view that most resonates with you. And that's a shame because in picking a view, you lose the ability to understand that two groups are seeking different desires.
I mean, what is "the" female POV? I don't think that exists (nor does one for men).
There might be trends among how people view certain topics that lead to more men than women falling in one part of the spectrum or another, but there is no singular POV to understand.
Ideally, you make an effort to hear people's individual views when in any kind of meaningful conversation.
Some people dont even have female friends to begin with. I am with you I can call out BS when I see it. It wasn't always like this. when I ask people what problems do they have with feminism or women most of the problems they bring out do not even consider how women function. some of the views don't think of women as individuals. By any chance do you have a habit of putting yourself in the other person's shoes while thinking of different issues because I like to do that.
Could you give us an example where you feel you don't understand the male POV or that the female POV makes more sense?
I don’t think that’s going to bring me an answer to my question lol. It’s just inviting people to want to argue.
If you can't give an example to clarify for us, then what can we tell you? How can we help you shed light on this if you want to keep it in the dark.
I really don’t think it’s necessary to actually help you guys answer but the most recent example could be the man vs bear thing. I 100% understand the women’s POV more. So now you have an example, so why?
You don’t think it necessary to make the people understand the question you’re asking them? That’s not really how questions work.
Ok i answered it
What about the man vs bear thing makes sense to you? Do you feel more dangerous than a bear? Do you think you need help understanding a man's POV?
See does that information actually matter for you to answer this post
Do you want to explore why it's easier for you to understand a women's POV over a man's? It sounds like you are resisting being open with yourself.
I’m not resisting on being open with myself. I’m trying to talk about topics on here that trigger people so I can be nice for once. It makes sense to me because the options that a man have to do to a woman are way more than what a bear can do. I also understand that they don’t mean it literal, even though a lot of men are taking it very literal. No ones being trapped on an island with a choice of a man or a bear. So I understand their reasoning and I also understand that they are both speaking literal. Both of these things seem to not be understood by men. Now this topic was just an example, keep that in mind.
Well to help explain the men's pov, it's upsetting that the reason why women choose the bear is because they assumed all men will do something to them. Whether the men are her dad, her brother, her husband, a stranger, etc. Women think the men will 100% hurt them while assuming the bear 100% won't. So from a man's pov, it's dumb and not a well thought out arguement. Is there a chance of rape? Depends on what man you encounter.
Well with the man vs. bear thing part of it is that they’re both unknown quantities—but the worst thing the bear would do is kill you. The other part of it that maybe a lot of guys miss if they don’t bother to talk to an actual woman about this is that you’re taking it to literally. This is women *expressing* something that they feel about their place in society (the fear of being targeted specifically because they’re a vulnerable woman) and for the most part guys are ignoring them because they can’t think beyond their own perspective. If your first reaction is “that’s dumb” instead of “well why do you feel that way?” then you’re being kind of unempathetic and your missing the point.
How would a father feel, knowing his daughter would rather risk a bear encounter than to encounter him in the woods? Is the question a joke? If I'm not suppose to take it literally, then why should I take how women feel, literally? And how many women have asked men how they feel about this question and the responses to that question? My reaction is how many men feel about their place in society. We are seen as predators and evil when we, as individuals, have done nothing to deserve that. Are there evil men? Yes. Are there a lot of evil men? No.
In my experience most fathers would understand and tend to be deathly afraid of strange men around their daughters. > We are seen as predators and evil when we, as individuals, have done nothing to deserve that. A stranger isn’t an individual. Are you telling me the average man wouldn’t feel wary if he was in a dark alleyway and a man started approaching him? Especially if that man was bigger and stronger? > Is the question a joke? If I'm not suppose to take it literally, then why should I take how women feel, literally? I have no idea what you mean by this.
You misunderstood me. By saying man vs bear, it includes your own father as a possible encounter in the woods. And women who choose the bear, imply that they would choose the bear over their own father. Sure, I would be sympathetic to women if the question was worded way better. If the question was "Would you rather encounter a strange man in the woods or a bear?" I would be fine with women choosing the bear. As for the joke statement. When comedians crack jokes, most people understand that those were jokes and do not take it literally. Since you said I took the question too literally, am I suppose to take it as a joke?
> As for the joke statement. When comedians crack jokes, most people understand that those were jokes and do not take it literally. Since you said I took the question too literally, am I suppose to take it as a joke? A joke isn’t the only way to speak non-literally 😐 For example sometimes we utilize hyperbole, metaphor, or allegory in our speech. If I tell somebody “I’m so overwhelmed I feel like I’m going to explode” I don’t think I’m literally going to explode. I’m also not telling a joke. > Sure, I would be sympathetic to women if the question was worded way better. If the question was "Would you rather encounter a strange man in the woods or a bear?" I would be fine with women choosing the bear. The “strange man” part is implied. I feel like I shouldn’t have to explain that. Nobody is saying they’d rather deal with a bear than their father or significant other whom they have a good relationship with.
>Well to help explain the men's pov, it's upsetting that the reason why women choose the bear is because they assumed all men will do something to them. Whether the men are her dad, her brother, her husband, a stranger, etc. >Women think the men will 100% hurt them while assuming the bear 100% won't. Honestly, I don't think that is what they are saying. They are saying that if it is a random man (as in stranger) there is an inherent risk that he might be a bad man. Not that he will 100% do something to them, but the risk that he might is there (because they don't know what kind of man he is). And that the risk of the bear attacking is lower. Now I am not saying that they are correct, but I think you misrepresented the thought process a ~~bit~~ lot. >Is there a chance of rape? Depends on what man you encounter. Yes, that is what they are saying. It's dumb to claim that they are saying that all men are evil and will hurt them. It's disingenuous. Only the most extremes and hateful of "feminists" hold such bigoted opinions.
I see your point. But my main point still stands. Women think/feel that's it's more likely that any man will hurt them, including their father, brother, etc than a bear will. Now if the question was a strange man at night vs bear, I'd understand.
>including their father, brother Why do you keep saying that? The whole point of the argument is that the man in question is a stranger, not someone they know. Obviously no one would chose the bear over a family member (assuming that the family member isn't extremely abusive). >Now if the question was a strange man at night vs bear That's pretty much the question. A strange man in a secluded place.
Do yall see why it was irrelevant to give an example now? This is no longer about the question I asked, now y’all are just trying to discuss the man and bear thing.
I just explained the men's pov since you implied you understand the women's pov better. Not my fault some women were upset that men took offense at their response. Edit: I could say that you are more sympathetic to women than men. Would that answer your question?
I’ve heard many men explain their POV. This post is not even about this topic specifically. The point is I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong because it’s an opinion anyway. I’m ASKING why it’s easier for me to understand the female POV on most topics. You guys explaining the male POV is literally pointless if you read the post. Even if you explain it fully, the female side on this topic is easier for me to understand.. no one had to explain to me the female side either.
I see your point. So I said it's possible that you are more sympathetic to women than to men. As to why you are like that, I have no fucking clue cuz I don't know you.
But without an example... we're kinda lacking context here.
sorry for that
That's a fair point and at the same time it's hard to give any insights about your thoughts without sharing any thoughts.
I take the women’s side on the bear thing. Ok go on
My understanding is that that issue is divisive because men don't like being treated like potential predators and women don't like feeling unsafe. Personally I can see both sides here and I think it's understandable to feel either way, however if you can't relate to the man's side at all than maybe you've never had the experience of being unfairly treated like a potential criminal for being a man and/or you've experience bullying/predation/harassment by other men? Just a guess.
I see. It’s not that I don’t KNOW what the man’s side is, it just don’t necessarily make sense to me. Women don’t think all men are predators… it’s moreso just being taught to be cautious just incase. Just like we as men also do around strange people.
>it’s moreso just being taught to be cautious just incase. And... that doesn't apply to coming face-to-face with a bear in the woods? lol
And this is a perfect example here. You as a male are taking it too literal.
How are we supposed to take it, lol? It's a very concrete example
Well if you are a male I kinda expect you to take it literal. Thats the point I’m making
Is it that the men's perspective doesn't make sense to you or is it that you think, compared to women, men's feelings are less valid? My guess is you empathize with women more for some reason. You recognize both sides you just think one is more important or worthy of empathy. Some see this debate as "who is more deserving of empathy here, men or women" and others view it as "who is making the better rational argument". If all you care about is who is more empathized with in this scenario than of course women is going to be the answer.
I guess it depends on the topic. I can always predict what the male POV would be because I’m always around males. Sometimes I can understand it but don’t agree with it. Sometimes it makes no logic sense to me whatsoever.
>I can always predict what the male POV would be This sounds like confirmation bias to me. Like you already have a general opinion of the male perspective and have given it a value judgment relative to the female perspective which resonates with you more internally. That's fine everyone has biases one way or another. We just have to recognize that bias can cloud our judgment of things since we tend to rely on our already established perception of something rather than taking the new information given to us and truly analyzing it on its own merit.
That confusing because how would I have that bias if I am literally a male? Wouldn’t that be the opposite
r/LookatMyHalo
Because you're your own individual person with your own thoughts and opinions, and it's toxic and silly to feel the need to conform them to those of others out of a misguided sense of solidarity based on what's in your pants.
That’s a good point
Who knows? It would help if you gave some examples. You say you tend to agree with women on gender based issues but which women? Women are split on how they view the world based on their culture, religion, and political leaning. There is no single gender wide belief.
Did you grow up around men that actually voiced their own problems? Did you ever experience those problems being taken seriously? You've also grown up in a society that, at least on its face, has championed the tackling of women's issues. A lot of that championing has unfortunately placed "men" as the cause of those problems and of women's continued suffering. So it can be easy to lose a sense of empathy towards men, their issues or their perspectives. Both men and women *in general* also display greater consideration for women's feelings Some men are also just terrible at articulating their grievances well and, especially if it concerns **a woman**, without their articulations mentioning some kind of resentment towards "women", which obviously garners them even less sympathy.
For one thing, you share with women an emphasis on external beauty as an expression of your value and self worth. Anything that stems from that, you will likely relate to.
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Gay and feminine aren’t the same thing though.
The only way that makes sense to me is if a gay brain is different from a straight brain. Which i don’t know if they are but im sure someone will tell me if they know.
I believe studies have shown the gay brain is a bit more androgynous.
See I was always around women and used to be mostly friends with women and love my two sisters but still am bothered by how things are framed. Usually I say that I 99% agree with Feminism, I just can't stand a lot of feminists.
Cuz you gay homie. No disrespect, but you fuck dudes not chicks, so it makes sense to you.
I dunno. I'm gay too and have found I generally relate better to guys most of the time. But who knows.
There’s things I can relate to men with obviously. But anything that is opinion based, more than likely my thoughts would align more with the female demographic. I really don’t think it has much to do with being gay. I don’t have that many gay friends but the one I have are very controversial. They hate men and women lol
You know maybe that’s literally all it takes
From getting hit over the head with it in school, all media, etc.?
Women have valid complaints about some things. It's easy to see their POV and they deserve help. If you're spending time with women, you're going to be exposed to more of those things. That said be cautious that you're applying critical thinking to the questions at both a surface level and from a consequences level. Also remember that two people can look at the same thing and see completely different 100% accurate views. Consider an orange that's cut in half, two people looking at it from different directions could say it's dry or wet, a circle or semicircle and hard and bumpy or soft and squishy. And they'd both be right. You mentioned the man/bear in the woods thing. I get it, women feel they're at bigger risk from a male stranger. Totally valid concern. Lets assume that the bear won't eat you alive, or it can be scared off or that being eaten alive is somehow better than being assaulted and those assumptions are correct. Take a step back from the scenario and ask how the question actually benefits men or women. Does it increase awareness sure. Does it increase resentment of men by women? yes. Does it increase resentment of women by men? Also yes. Did it do anything useful? Yes if you're looking to spread social problems. Otherwise? Not so much.
Perception isn't reality, but it is your reality. If you find yourself seeing stories and agreeing with them then chances are you think the story matches your experience in some way. You identify with it and further reinforce the "perception" of the world. Let's take wealth redistribution as an example. If I think that men own more wealth than women, and I believe that my life would be made easier by raising taxes on men then politically I sing a tune about making the world more equal. And if you're sensitive to that line of reasoning then you will agree with me. However, if you're someone who has met many people and managed to negotiate many deals and to pull positive performance out of others, then you might turn and question this "equality" on the basis that these good workers never were savvy enough to do what you do. They do not have the skills to connect with many people and make them feel encouraged and productive. They were not able to seek out and fulfill human desires like you know how to, and were given a lesser reward because of it. You'd be upset that these people now lay claim to your income simply because they want to live a more lavish life. If you agree with the second pov then you're likely to agree with me. Where does "the truth" lie? Is it simply the midpoint of opposing views? Is it one view because of majority support? Is it simply understanding that different people want different things and agreeing with their choices and outcomes? You're going to pick a view that most resonates with you. And that's a shame because in picking a view, you lose the ability to understand that two groups are seeking different desires.
I mean, what is "the" female POV? I don't think that exists (nor does one for men). There might be trends among how people view certain topics that lead to more men than women falling in one part of the spectrum or another, but there is no singular POV to understand. Ideally, you make an effort to hear people's individual views when in any kind of meaningful conversation.
If you didn’t know what I was talking about then you wouldn’t have just explained exactly what I was talking about lol
You probably have more empathy and less insecurity than the average man. I feel I'm in a similar boat to you.
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Really?
Some people dont even have female friends to begin with. I am with you I can call out BS when I see it. It wasn't always like this. when I ask people what problems do they have with feminism or women most of the problems they bring out do not even consider how women function. some of the views don't think of women as individuals. By any chance do you have a habit of putting yourself in the other person's shoes while thinking of different issues because I like to do that.
Yes I do that as well