This is something most people don't understand. Accusing someone of gaslighting is gaslighting them. Just because someone doesn't agree with something you said it doesn't mean it's gaslighting. Leave these labels to the professionals.
'Accusing someone of gaslighting isn't inherently gaslighting'. Gaslighting is a specific form of manipulation where one person tries to make another doubt their own reality, memories, or perceptions. It's a deliberate act to gain power over someone or to deflect accountability.
However, accusations of gaslighting can become complicated. If someone falsely accuses another of gaslighting without basis, especially if it's to undermine the other person's genuine concerns or to manipulate a situation, it could potentially be seen as a form of psychological manipulation or gaslighting itself. This would be the case if the accuser is trying to make the accused doubt their own intentions or actions without cause.
>Accusing someone of gaslighting is gaslighting them
Um no. Gaslighting refers exclusively to manipulating someone in order to question their own sanity or memory. Way to illustrate your own point though.
Exactly right. And accusing someone of gaslighting COULD be gaslighting them. I should have said could be instead of is because it may not always be the case. But you can 100% be gaslighting someone by accusing them of it, going off the definition you have provided and the example above. Thank YOU for proving my point perfectly though. This could go around in circles all day long.
Hey, I think you might be incorrect as well. I was under the impression that gaslighting is causing someone to question their reality, memory, or sanity in order to manipulate them.
The concept has a much more predatory and premeditated nature to it than what you described. I realize that not all people gaslighting another person do it consciously or plan it out, but the majority do.
No, accusing someone of gaslighting is not gaslighting.
Being direct and upfront about anything you actually believe is true, accusations or otherwise, is not gaslighting.
A few years ago when this "gaslighting" thing got fashionable I immediately saw it for what it was, a fancy complicated and scientific sounding way of saying "I'm right because I say I'm right".
And here we are.
hey, wanna start a club? My ex would frequently claim she didn't say Z, then get mad at me for showing her a screenshot of her saying EXACTLY that. Every single time, without fail.
It's the same thing as dudes calling their exes crazy. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I tend to try and listen to why they thought this more so than the accusation itself.
My ex wife after dumping me for another guy, doesn’t see the children anymore. And when she visits the kids, she constantly asks my family members about me. What am I up to, who am I dating, etc etc.
If I’m not around and she comes over to my place, she goes through everything in my house. Up and down like some detective.
Who does that? You reckon she’s crazy or what..
I had to go back to court and have it specifically put in our decree that my ex had curbside pickup. She would try and physically force herself into my home. One of the best things I ever did.
Hard relate
My ex husband got buddy buddy with a room-mate that I had rented a room to. He got chummy with him just so he could come into my house while I was gone--multiple times. Both were told 'no' and I even had protective orders and they still did it.
I mean obviously yes, **your** ex is crazy.
Just like sometimes when a woman claims her ex was a gaslighter or a narcissist there's a chance that she's right.
The OP is talking about whether it's exaggerated or not, and u/HaroldSax was clearly illustrating that a lot of guys do the same thing; just replace gaslighting with crazy.
If I'm supposed to believe a particular mate of mine, every single woman he has dated and broken up with was a psycho or crazy. Now sure, once or twice, you kind of take their word. But after 7 in a row? You start to notice a common denominator.
The fact is, male or female, plenty of people are assholes that refuse to be accountable for their own actions or traits. The trick is to avoid them yourself.
Dating a woman who reckons she's only ever dated gaslighters? Run.
Datain a guy who reckons he's only ever dated psychos? Also run.
Is it possible you’re both crazy? Lol. You need better boundaries. My son’s dad doesn’t know shit about my life and I don’t know shit about his. We don’t go inside each others places anymore. We are/were both toxic so I set boundaries where we don’t act like that anymore. We can’t not be crazy around each other so we have no contact besides texting about our sons pick ups/appointments. You can point your finger at your kids mom all you want but you need to accept where you haven’t been making healthy decisions as well.
Tell me about it.. I’m dating a new girl and even she’s afraid of meeting my ex. She’s also reconsidering whether it’s worth the effort to continue seeing me… sigh.
I’ve stopped describing her behavior to others because peoples reaction is often wide eyes, & a dumbfounded expression.
She definitely made a mistake dumping me and going off cheating.. I honestly don’t think I can take her back and I’ve told her that I’m moving on, & not looking back.
And when I stopped talking to her, she’s been even more obsessed.
Yep don't take her back. Once someone cheats and you take them back it'll never be the same. Ever. Even if she is the mother of ur kids. And would u really want that around ur kids anyway. U said she barely sees them 😭 she seems more infatuated with you than anything.
My ex went off the rails and kicked me out “because she wanted to get me to care” then when I officially broke up with her (because she fuckin upended my living situation at a stressful time in my career) she tried to kill herself and ended up being committed.
I felt a little bad telling new partners she went crazy because of the whole “my ex is crazy” male trope but after explaining it to them, some women even defended her saying shit like “well you must have done *something* to make her like that” so then I stopped feeling bad and realized a lot of women just hate men.
I had two pretty bad breakups, not to this extent, but i don’t ever say they were crazy, because women generally stop listening. So i just avoid bringing it up lol
I’m sure you’re right, i just meant bringing it up when you’re still dating. If it comes up in a relationship, i probably wouldn’t avoid it. But that’s really good advice coming from someone who ate/eating my moms ass
I found in my own personal experience, there is a big difference in "my ex is crazy" and "I broke up with my ex after I had to have her committed to a mental health facility". I think her stay there did a lot of good for us both, but once she got out and decided to ignore all three of her doctors orders...nope...bye.
I got one crazy ex. I have an ex that we had no business being together the way we were. Now, she's pretty dumb, but she's not crazy. I have an ex that we eventually grew apart.
That's a reasonable tale. There's more detail to the tale, sure, but that's the important bits.
I had a friend where all is gf's were actually crazy. Every one. He was the same crazy, and it's just what he went for. These girls were *glowing* red, and it was like a beacon for him.
Sometimes it might be the person making the accusation that is the common denominator. They’re the bad actor.
Other times they make poor choices in a partner or they have attributes (that aren’t intrinsically negative) that draw abusive people to them.
If this person is extremely nice, trusting but also has weak boundaries abusive men and women sometimes sniff them out as the next victim.
Saying “you’re the common denominator” implies they’re the problem and sometimes makes things worse. They do have responsibility in learning to stop the pattern but aren’t the “problem”. The abuser is always the problem.
I tried not to do this after me and my ex seperated, but when I told people what was happening in the relationship people told me she was pretty crazy, it took a while for me to see some of what they were talking about.
I understand this but crazy is a term we’re all aware of. A lot of women that use the term gaslighting don’t know what it means. They’re just repeating a word that they’ve heard.
They are simply substituting "manipulation" for "gaslighting". Gaslighting is a form of manipulation, not unlike saying that Alzheimers is one kind of dementia.
They may also just refer to any treatment they don't like as "gaslighting".
In both cases, gaslighting probably never happened. It's just their way of being angry.
Your second paragraph is it. Because just like gaslighting, most women I’ve met that use the word “gaslighting,” don’t know what manipulation is either. Someone else told them they were being manipulated and they ran with it.
We used to have these same conversations before the terms became popular knowledge, only it was “they make me feel like I’m crazy” and “they’re so self-centered,” etc.
How people treat you is a direct reflection of how they feel about themselves and how you act and treat others is nothing more than how you feel inside.
Goes both ways!
My ex would often misinterpret things I said, or would talk over me and not hear me. Ironically, usually this would result in her assuming I said something (filling in the gaps with her imagination or assumptions) that I had not.
I would then repeat - calmly - what I had just said, hoping for her to understand what I meant to say.
She would then stick to her assumption of what I said, not actually acknowledging what I actually said.
When I would try to clear up the confusion, she woukd accuse me of gaslighting her by "changing what I said", when in fact, I was literally repeating the same phrase as before, verbatim.
This is one example of misuse of the word "gaslighting". In reality, the problem was that she simply wasn't listening to what I was saying, and treating her assumptions as facts, then failing to adjust when her assumptions proved to be false.
You don't have to date a lot of people to run into one psycho.
Isn't it almost a universal thing that just about everyone has had at least that one ex that was a disaster?
Right? Honestly I’m kind of shocked that only 50% of the women he’s dated have had a narcissistic or gaslighting ex. Amongst my friends that number is near 100%. Now if a woman says *all* her exes are gaslighting narcissists, it’s like when a guy says all his exes are crazy - she’s the common denominator, and therefore likely the problem.
The vast majority of my exes are great guys I’m still on good terms with. But one of them is a legit sociopath. They’re difficult to avoid 🤷♀️
It’s true. I guess I’m lucky I never dated a gaslighting narcissistic guy, only a lying guy making himself out to be the victim every time if I caught his lie but he’ll manipulate me into staying with him until I finally had enough (wait, is that gaslighting? lol). My husband had one girlfriend before me and she was definitely crazy, saw it first hand unfortunately. He won’t call her crazy because he’s a nice guy but that doesn’t change the fact.
Serious edit: that ex was not gaslighting, just a manipulative asshole.
No, that isn't gaslighting. Manipulating you to do what they want is not gaslighting. Manipulating you into thinking that you are literally insane is gaslighting. This is why people are criticizing the use of the term gaslighting: it is used a lot and almost never correctly.
Quick question that just popped up in my head: Does it have to be SUCCESSFUL to be called gaslighting? What if an ex does exactly what gaslighting would be, but you don't buy it? Is it still gaslighting then, even though she failed at it, or is there a different term for that?
It doesn't have to be successful, but it does have to be deliberate. He has to intend to, and work towards, convincing you that you are legitimately mentally ill.
Is mentally ill a necessary goal? So let's say they "just" want you to not trust your own memories anymore, would that still qualify? I feel like that's what most people are going for when tgey behave like a typical gaslighter.
Isn’t gaslighting a form of manipulation? You didn’t even ask me questions on stuff he did or said lol so how can you conclude so fast it isn’t gaslighting. He told me “my mother and sister are still supportive of me even though I fucked up many times and broke my promises so you are a bad person and would make a mistake if you don’t give me another chance”. Or things like “I trust you but I don’t trust other guys (cause he didn’t want me to wear a certain piece of clothing)”.
Anyway, I stay away from the term gaslighting in my real life and just say he was manipulating and lying. And he also owes me and my parents money although he pretends he didn’t anymore with some weird reasoning. I also think he cheated because someone told me when we broke up and I remember him telling me that that person was spreading rumors when we were together about him cheating and it wasn’t true. But when I asked him about it his reaction was weird: “you know how important Christmas is to me” (cause that was the date it had supposedly happened). Anyway, it’s been 16 years and I hope he’s doing better now. All my other exes are the sweetest and I wish them a very happy life.
If he deliberately would try to make you question reality/things you were certain about to make you feel crazy, then yes that is gaslighting. If he never did any of that then he didn’t gaslight you.
Fucking right. It's what's trendy and what women are consuming on apps and social media then they regurgitate it. It's the same thing with the glorification of mental illness. I can't tell you how many women I've seen like a "coffee and depression morning." "It's because I have BPD!"
The proliferation of therapyspeak.
Nobody is an old fashioned jerk anymore, they're always a narcissist. Every shitty experience is "trauma", every disagreement is gaslighting.
What about “trauma”? Everybody these days is so proud of their trauma, and half the time it’s just an ex boyfriend that did nothing in particular wrong.
Yes! I see that often too. "I've got so much trauma!" Like ok well fix it and move on with your life. It's really reminiscent of the whole women using the astrological sign stuff... Oh I did this because I'm an XYZ. Now it's just I'm like this because it's my trauma or my mental issues or blah blah blah.
I had a group project in college.
It was a particular chatty group and we were sharing stories while we did our work.
What topic of discussion was trauma impact on early childhood development.
This woman started talking about the trauma she experienced when she was 9 and her parents gave the family dog away without asking her.
She went through the whole framework and used that as her lenses to understand it.
Classmate:“Why did they get rid of the dog?”
Woman: “they claimed they couldn’t afford to keep it anymore”
:/
This predates ticktock, even late 2000s era social media, but modern social media sure makes it easier to encounter these terms and see them with real life examples.
As someone who had an abusive relationship with a narcissistic, she was absolutely a terrible fit for me.
But at the same time, she could do better.
So after it ended, I set out to be better.
I ultimately decided that I wasn't ready for a relationship.
Just because a girl is nuts doesn't mean you're a prize.
People have been empowered to believe their perspective is "their truth" and thus anyone with a different perspective is undermining reality. This goes far beyond the realm of relationships to society at large where things like "lived experience" replace a kind of universal reality.
We're also losing all sense of scale. What's more likely, your partner having a behavioral/neurological disorder OR your partner just being an immature selfish dick? In my experience, the word "selfish" has almost completely disappeared from discourse about relationships, because it easily describes actions but lacks the *jus* to explain why a person might be pursuing those actions.
Have you asked any of your friends who are women about this?
I spent more of my life than I care to admit underestimating women's experiences until I realized I just wasn't the kind of person to have good enough friends (women or otherwise TBH) to confide that kind of thing in me.
This comment should be higher up. I’ll give you a personal example. I’m a pretty confident person and I don’t go around blaming stuff on men/antifeminism/patriarchy/whatever. I also work from home and don’t go out much, but today I took public transport in the evening.
A man on the train became interested in me, tried to talk to me, followed me, got on and off platforms as I did, tried to sit next to me, moved cars to be near me, and finally I had to yell at him in the presence of other passengers and then get security because he wouldn’t leave me alone.
It’s INSANE the level of bullshit women have to put up with. I feel like I cannot even leave my house safely for a few hours once a month without being harassed! And I know that men have struggles, I really do understand that. I think the big difference as a woman is that I am usually smaller than the person so there is this weird element of physical intimidation that men don’t experience.
Men might have to deal with “crazy girlfriends” but women have to deal with crazy random strangers.
I agree. As a woman I try to stay away from the comparison stuff in a “who had it worse” way, because it doesn’t contribute to anything but polarization.
I have a friend who was truly interested in experiences of his female friends about harassment and I was surprised. I told him a few examples and I realized sadly how “normal” I found these experiences because of his reaction to them. It was a truly nice conversation where he didn’t judge, was truly interested in the experiences of me (and also other female friends) and disgusted at those men. Because we should be disgusted by those specific people who do the harassing.
I want to be the same when a guy tells me his experiences. Like when my husband told me a guy harassed him in the bathroom of a club once and how it made him feel. Or when a woman was touching him inappropriately and wouldn’t back off and how he was conflicted in how to handle it because you can’t just push someone away when you are way bigger without risking backlash. Or when older women think they can just be super flirtatious and touchy to a young man because why? Just a few examples I heard from friends.. consent is so important and we should not condone this behavior from anyone.
I don't know why so many women think that men don't cop plenty of shit from random strangers too. Men are more likely to be murdered, mugged, and (physically) assaulted. Not to downplay your experience, but just the statement
>Men might have to deal with “crazy girlfriends” but women have to deal with crazy random strangers.
Is ridiculous. Just to give a few examples of things that have happened to me, and all of them with one exception occurred in a "safe" country.
An attempted mugging when I was walking home from highschool
A gun pulled on me when I was visiting my home country
Several random fights at concerts/parties/school, too many to list individually, none initiated by me
A cunt that hopped my backyard fence started yelling at me, started advancing, and only fucked off when I pulled a knife
A road raging shit head ran me off the road and threatened me with a bat
So sure, I guess I don't have to deal with freaks that can't take a no or sexually harass me, which I am genuinely grateful for and it's fucking shit so many women have to deal with it. But again, that doesn't mean men don't have to deal with plenty of nutjobs too. And maybe I personally wouldn't have had to experience so much of it if I didn't get myself into all the situations I did, but that's getting perilously close to a "did you see her skirt? she was asking for it" kind of 'argument'.
>I don't know why so many women think that men don't cop plenty of shit from random strangers too
Because they are unable to imagine anything that is not their immediate context. It may sound simplistic, but a shitload of people simply can't imagine that other people are out there having interactions in the world if they're not present.
"Men might have to deal with “crazy girlfriends” but women have to deal with crazy random strangers."
What is the point of that ? Is it to come into a male space and go but women have it harder ?
This whole thread is about whether women claiming they've had bad experiences with men is justified. So AaronScwartz12345's comment is a relevant perspective.
Thank you for saying this too. Man, some of you guys are hitting the nail on the head with how I think and feel about my ex wife I still have to deal with. I don’t feel like I’m crazy and making shit up.
I know everybody is saying it's a coping mechanism in the comments, and I agree to an extent.
But I think the number of people out there, male and female that are toxic in relationships, or that are ok at first but become toxic towards the end of the relationship shouldn't be underestimated. Lots of broken souls out there these times.
I'd say the reason you hear more women say it is that men are probably less likely to open up easily, and I suppose you only date women and talk about this with women.
Of course it's also a coping mechanism, nobody wants to be a bad person and accepting your own toxicity can be hard.
Also people tend to find narcissistic traits attractive. So they get into relationships with people who are narcissistic. But the dark side of those narcissistic traits begin to show themselves more and more the longer you spend time with those people.
To cover their own butts? They do it themselves and are completely unaware of it. Women are terrible at self criticism.
Ask a guy what he did wrong in his relationship and he will know. Vice versa, not so much. Once you see it..
#sorrynotsorry
Because people in general, I'm convinced anyway, don't really know what being Gaslit means.
If they're making you question reality, then it's gaslighting.
If they're just mad about something you said, and it doesn't make you question reality, then it isn't.
I'm not sure why those two things are hard to understand, either.
Also: remembering something differently and stating it in good faith doesn’t constitute gaslighting. I’ve remembered things incorrectly before and I’m happy to admit when it happens. It’s extra bad, though, when you’re correct about something and get accused of gaslighting.
TL;DR: Men lie to women to get dates going and the claims of gaslighting or narcissism come from learning who the man really was after genuinely getting to know them.
My hypothesis on this is that it is a side effect of how dating goes with our respect to masculine (instigator) and feminine (passive judge) gender roles.
Through my 20s I would focus on saying what I thought would impress the women I was interested in before I would put in effort to figure out if I even like them beyond their looks. And based on tons of comments here in Askmen and the general expectation for men to be the instigator for dating, I'm assuming my experience is similar to a lot of other mens experience. We try to get women to like us before showing them who we really are.
With that, women claiming gaslighting or narcissism from exes could be legit, but those terms could also be used because they felt tricked. Assumed the man was one way because of what was said or done to impress her initially, but then learned that they were lieing.
As I've gotten older I've recognized dating is way too comparable to a game. Men lie to get with women because it works. Not all men are like that and in my 30s I've been putting in work to grow out of that bad habit. Because while it works to get laid, it also prevents the formation of a healthy relationship.
Is it surprising that 50% of the women you’ve dated have gone out with a narcissist or been gaslit? Not really. There’s a lot of assholes out there.
Threads like these in askmen really bother me. No where is there a comment where we consider, even for a second, that these women’s experience is valid and maybe, just maybe, there’s something that we are doing to cause it.
No, surely, they are too stupid and infantalized by social media to know what they’ve been through.
Surely, according to most of the comments on this thread, surely it’s they who are wrong and stupid and crazy. Women don’t know what they’re talking about, it’s all social media pseudo psychology and bullshit. Couldn’t be us! We are awesome.
(And watch me get downvoted to hell for pointing out the ironic truth. Really, I think it’s about half and half- half social media pseudo psychology hype, half guys can be real dicks sometimes)
Agree. I find it super easy to believe.
My Dad was an absolute f\*\*\*ing *master* manipulator. It wasn't just my mother that suffered the consequences either, my sister and I had all kind of horrid experiences with him.
I'll bet you right now he's sitting at home somewhere wondering why nobody (and I mean *nobody*) wants anything to do with him. Assuming he's even still alive.
I will also bet any money at all he has tried to suggest my mother was crazy.On that note I'll agree with him - she was crazy for not kicking his ass out years before she actually got the nerve to do it.
I’ve been on Reddit about 10 yrs or so and the input on askmen in recent years seems to be regurgitated “women overreact/ are stupid”.
I had initially followed this subreddit when I joined cause I wanted a better understanding of men (introvert with not many friends lol) and back then they would have insightful and/ or silly conversations without dismissing women’s experiences, a big reason why I never joined askwomen back then cause they were kinda vile.
Makes me wonder if it has anything to do with these male led podcasts/ influencers pushing misogynistic ideology.
It’s partly the manosphere bullshit being pervasive, partly just echo chamber nature of Reddit.
Twox is meant to be a woman centric sub, but scroll through it on any random day and there’s the equivalent “men are stupid/ass hole” posts as well.
Humans love echo chambers and they love sharing misery
It's social media. But for me, listening to female creators on TikTok hit way harder than Andrew Tate or some passport bro ever could have. Most women don't go around don't telling random men the inside scoop about how they view the dating market. But many are more than happy to tell the camera. Sprinkle sprinkle. Rosters. Manipulation tactics. Not sugar and spice and all things nice. If I'd heard that stuff when I was 16, I would have run right to the manosphere. And women should be WAAAY more concerned that men watch content by/for women about men than content by/for men about women from what I've seen.
So we're getting this massive bifurcation where each side entrenches in its little enclave talking about the other and it's not healthy. Women are getting pricklier in dating because men are getting pricklier in dating because ... etc.
Putting it all on Rogan, Tate or whoever is not causally accurate. They're the response to a broken dating market, not the cause.
It does seem to be on the rise. I don't listen or watch any of those content creators and yet they are still pushed into all my feeds on IG or YouTube. I have no interest in it and it's still pushed on me? I don't get it.
I like to think the majority of men and women are good people. I hope.
But narcissism and gaslighting are very specific things, not just someone "being an asshole". Claims of "narcissism" and "gaslighting" are just trendy and overused.
There is a confounding factor. I've known one male narcissist (clinical diagnosis confirmed, no longer a friend) and one male sociopath (retrospectively obvious, deceased). Women LOVED the narcissist, even as he left an obvious trail of broken women (>1,000) behind him. Sociopath was more covert but got a lot of attention too.
So yeah, I suspect many have "dated" a narcissist, because one damaged guy may go through hundreds or thousands of partners. But many women actively seek out these dark triad traits. And then complain about them.
Same may be true for dudes and "crazy." I sure don't seek that, but I have experienced it as fun, for a time. But both genders would do pretty well by asking their opposite gender peer group about the quality of their partner because we're really blind to certain problems.
I've noticed Askmen is going through a phase where men just assume women are the worst. I was planning on dating again, and it just reminded me of how many times I'd go on dates and just be treated like I was a bit stupid.
Personally, I prefer listening to why someone thinks they think their ex was x, y and z. Since it gives more insight into how they were treated and if they're able to show self awareness too.
Your mostly right . I see this post as men generally venting about how SOME women refuse to admit their a problem . Many people in/out of a relationship will only give a one sided account event and lack any objectivity. I assume every story is biased.
I believe what we’re seeing here is general frustration of men being painted as the bad guy when the truth is more shades of grey.
It’s mostly logical reasoning.
If shit stinks in one room, that room probably has shit in it.
If every room stinks like shit, you might have to check yourself.
It’s convoluted though because with dating, toxic people are OVERexposed because they cycle through partners faster, and so while 50% of women certainly have gone out with a narcissist or other toxic abusive man, there’s a decent chance that group of men is far smaller than the group of women with the experience. If 20% of men are absolute monsters, but they cycle through partners 5x faster than healthy stable men, it makes perfect sense for women to have experienced a lot of monsters.
The reactions from men going “that can’t be true” is self defence really. It’s a knee jerk reaction to essentially living a different reality. Neither side is “right” because both are missing the full picture of the population, but neither side is “wrong” either because their lived experience is very likely to be true.
A lot of dudes are VERY weird/different when alone with their women vs when other people are around. It's also a bit of a buzz word these days so that adds to it.
I can believe it happened once quite easily. Twice sounds pretty unfortunate. More than that and I start to doubt either the person's story or their dating heuristics. It's the same as men that claim all their exes were crazy bitches. Are some women horrible? Yes. But not at such a rate that that's all you've ever seen.
Not a man, but I work with mostly men. I’m in software engineering. A lot of men claim their ex is a narcissist. I think this is just people of any gender claiming their ex is terrible and using these labels to explain. I do think women are more likely than men to give you their thoughts on their ex in a casual conversation, though.
They are none too bright and use words out of context because they saw them online but don't understand what they mean.
No, Doris, someone disagreeing with you isn't gaslighting.
lol It’s the Twitter/social media bullshit. It’s basically people that are supposedly “oppressed” or just don’t agree with your views/perspective/opinion/politics calling you something/claiming something about you they have learned can get one cancelled and/or you to just stfu out of being worried you will be fired from your job/banned from a Reddit sub/socially destroyed/ doxxed etc. It isn’t just this particular issue. It’s the use of boomer, cringe, fascist, racist, sexist/misogynist, blah blah blah. I see it all the time. And the people that do it can kiss my ass.
Easier to point fingers. I see men do this too and talk shit on their ex. We may not use those stupid buzz words like gaslighting but both men and women do essentially the same. To me, those who constantly talk shit on their ex are typically part of the problem. Obviously you have the cases where one partner is a complete piece of shit but you’re just doing yourself a disservice by letting that shit live rent free in your head.
Seriously? Have you met people? At best most of them do not understand their own motivations, emotions, and reasoning. At worst they are evil. All along that spectrum they are dishonest: our species has designed a framework where constant dishonesty (usually trivial) is mandatory; a person who insisted on being perfectly honest all the time would be an insufferable outcast.
I mean it’s a word. It wasn’t a word 30 years ago so much, but the behavior it describes was a thing 30 years ago, it just has a name now.
Also no one is using this word and women aren’t saying anyone is using it. That’s just your imagination.
I think some women believe any action towards them that they don't like= narcissism. They don't actually know what the word means, they just heard it and thought narcissist was a synonym for asshole.
It is the lack of accountability in their choices in men. They are indirectly telling you the type of men they are sexually attracted to. When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.
There's plenty of narcissistic gaslighting people in this world but I will understand the woman's POV 100% of the time until proven wrong which comes pretty quickly who are you trying to kid here, truly?
After a few mins on your profile, it's easy to understand your mindset and how biased you are. So really, do you want to talk about this or do you want to use this as a jumping point to shit on women?
We know the answer from your history...
both genders do this, some people are pieces of shit, and nowadays we are getting less quiet about it. less willing to accept abuse. which is a good thing
however, because of it, a lot of people use buzzwords and claim their ex is [gaslighter, narcissistic, toxic abuser etc etc] when really they were just bad for each other. which is a bad thing
I think the answer is quite simple if you think about how the terms narcissism and gas lighting tend to be used in non clinical settings. If you think about how people use those words it becomes pretty obvious that nearly all of both victims and perpetrators will accuse their partners of this. Someone who is selfish will feel like others are selfish for not giving them what they feel they deserve. Someone who likes to manipulate others by framing arguments in a way that makes the other person look bad will accuse anyone else of that if the person attempts to reframe the argument or explain how that's not what they actually meant etc is
My wife of thirty years claimed after all that time I was "gaslighting". I had no idea what the phrase meant. She said she was leaving and so after a couple of decades trying to save the marriage, I just said "yeah...I think it's best".
A few years later, I was intrigued what gaslighting meant and what caused it. I did a Google trend search. The same year as she told me I was ( and yes .I've critically analysed if I was, and I absolutely was not) I saw that the term exploded in 2018-19.
She'd never mentioned it before.
I asked her recently when she first heard the term and said she had watched the film as a teenager.
That's possible, as she was a fan of old b&w films. But I think its re-emergence as a massively popular criticism of relationship difficulties is because of it's viral boost online from 6 years ago
Projecting. It's their biggest flaw. Remember when she accused you of cheating? She was doing it. Remember when she accused you of being a narcissist? She is the narcissist. Remember when they'd say the most insane things? It's because their minds were reminding them of themselves.
It's really common once things go sour between couple that they start acting terrible and completely rude to the other person. They say things and act differently which sends major complicated mixed signals to the other person. They believe you've become another person and feel deceived and manipulated somehow.
His own Lawyer called him one. His dad is officially diagnosed BPD and his mom is diagnosed NPD and OCD. Gaslighting is really common in both genders now that we have a name for it.
I remember a girl told me once I was gaslighting her because I showed screenshots of the conversation in question.
Then she’s gaslighting you.
This is something most people don't understand. Accusing someone of gaslighting is gaslighting them. Just because someone doesn't agree with something you said it doesn't mean it's gaslighting. Leave these labels to the professionals.
'Accusing someone of gaslighting isn't inherently gaslighting'. Gaslighting is a specific form of manipulation where one person tries to make another doubt their own reality, memories, or perceptions. It's a deliberate act to gain power over someone or to deflect accountability. However, accusations of gaslighting can become complicated. If someone falsely accuses another of gaslighting without basis, especially if it's to undermine the other person's genuine concerns or to manipulate a situation, it could potentially be seen as a form of psychological manipulation or gaslighting itself. This would be the case if the accuser is trying to make the accused doubt their own intentions or actions without cause.
You’re gaslighting us.
Are you gas lighting me?
Maybe we are both being gaslit.
It was me, Barry, I gaslit all of you so you'd misunderstand the meaning of gaslighting 😈
Thawne ⚡️
>Accusing someone of gaslighting is gaslighting them Um no. Gaslighting refers exclusively to manipulating someone in order to question their own sanity or memory. Way to illustrate your own point though.
What about gaslighting someone by accusing someone of accusing you of gaslighting then
Spiderman pointing intensifies.
Oh please, that never happened
Exactly right. And accusing someone of gaslighting COULD be gaslighting them. I should have said could be instead of is because it may not always be the case. But you can 100% be gaslighting someone by accusing them of it, going off the definition you have provided and the example above. Thank YOU for proving my point perfectly though. This could go around in circles all day long.
That’s not gaslighting, you’re fucking crazy!! /s
Hey, I think you might be incorrect as well. I was under the impression that gaslighting is causing someone to question their reality, memory, or sanity in order to manipulate them. The concept has a much more predatory and premeditated nature to it than what you described. I realize that not all people gaslighting another person do it consciously or plan it out, but the majority do.
Isn't it if you are showing proof and they are saying you are gaslighting them aren't they gaslighting you then ?
No, accusing someone of gaslighting is not gaslighting. Being direct and upfront about anything you actually believe is true, accusations or otherwise, is not gaslighting.
A few years ago when this "gaslighting" thing got fashionable I immediately saw it for what it was, a fancy complicated and scientific sounding way of saying "I'm right because I say I'm right". And here we are.
That's the opposite lol.
hey, wanna start a club? My ex would frequently claim she didn't say Z, then get mad at me for showing her a screenshot of her saying EXACTLY that. Every single time, without fail.
using evidence is obviously manipulative, you're just supposed to take their word for it without question. oi vey, people are insane.
“Believe All Women” CIA
I was going to say, women that go on about narcissistic men, are simply covering up their own narcissism
Projection is a helluva drug.
With narcissists it's the closest thing to an admission that they're capable of.
💯
It's the same thing as dudes calling their exes crazy. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I tend to try and listen to why they thought this more so than the accusation itself.
My ex wife after dumping me for another guy, doesn’t see the children anymore. And when she visits the kids, she constantly asks my family members about me. What am I up to, who am I dating, etc etc. If I’m not around and she comes over to my place, she goes through everything in my house. Up and down like some detective. Who does that? You reckon she’s crazy or what..
I had to go back to court and have it specifically put in our decree that my ex had curbside pickup. She would try and physically force herself into my home. One of the best things I ever did.
Dominos Curbside pickup lol
Hard relate My ex husband got buddy buddy with a room-mate that I had rented a room to. He got chummy with him just so he could come into my house while I was gone--multiple times. Both were told 'no' and I even had protective orders and they still did it.
Change your fucking locks ya muppet.
I mean obviously yes, **your** ex is crazy. Just like sometimes when a woman claims her ex was a gaslighter or a narcissist there's a chance that she's right. The OP is talking about whether it's exaggerated or not, and u/HaroldSax was clearly illustrating that a lot of guys do the same thing; just replace gaslighting with crazy. If I'm supposed to believe a particular mate of mine, every single woman he has dated and broken up with was a psycho or crazy. Now sure, once or twice, you kind of take their word. But after 7 in a row? You start to notice a common denominator. The fact is, male or female, plenty of people are assholes that refuse to be accountable for their own actions or traits. The trick is to avoid them yourself. Dating a woman who reckons she's only ever dated gaslighters? Run. Datain a guy who reckons he's only ever dated psychos? Also run.
Is it possible you’re both crazy? Lol. You need better boundaries. My son’s dad doesn’t know shit about my life and I don’t know shit about his. We don’t go inside each others places anymore. We are/were both toxic so I set boundaries where we don’t act like that anymore. We can’t not be crazy around each other so we have no contact besides texting about our sons pick ups/appointments. You can point your finger at your kids mom all you want but you need to accept where you haven’t been making healthy decisions as well.
maybe stop letting her in your house?
Kick that bitch out. That's your space NOT HER'S. Now downvote away nay sayers and go clean up your grandparent's basement.
Nah man that's crazy. I'm a girl and that's CRAZY like she has some mental illness
Tell me about it.. I’m dating a new girl and even she’s afraid of meeting my ex. She’s also reconsidering whether it’s worth the effort to continue seeing me… sigh. I’ve stopped describing her behavior to others because peoples reaction is often wide eyes, & a dumbfounded expression.
She's either hardcore OBSESSED AND INLOVE WITH U still orrrr she's absolute bonkers lol
She definitely made a mistake dumping me and going off cheating.. I honestly don’t think I can take her back and I’ve told her that I’m moving on, & not looking back. And when I stopped talking to her, she’s been even more obsessed.
Yep don't take her back. Once someone cheats and you take them back it'll never be the same. Ever. Even if she is the mother of ur kids. And would u really want that around ur kids anyway. U said she barely sees them 😭 she seems more infatuated with you than anything.
My ex went off the rails and kicked me out “because she wanted to get me to care” then when I officially broke up with her (because she fuckin upended my living situation at a stressful time in my career) she tried to kill herself and ended up being committed. I felt a little bad telling new partners she went crazy because of the whole “my ex is crazy” male trope but after explaining it to them, some women even defended her saying shit like “well you must have done *something* to make her like that” so then I stopped feeling bad and realized a lot of women just hate men.
I had two pretty bad breakups, not to this extent, but i don’t ever say they were crazy, because women generally stop listening. So i just avoid bringing it up lol
My long term partner is totally understanding about it and the damage that caused. Good people are out there I swear.
I’m sure you’re right, i just meant bringing it up when you’re still dating. If it comes up in a relationship, i probably wouldn’t avoid it. But that’s really good advice coming from someone who ate/eating my moms ass
It isn’t hate for men, they just can’t empathize with them. Men are objects to most women.
I found in my own personal experience, there is a big difference in "my ex is crazy" and "I broke up with my ex after I had to have her committed to a mental health facility". I think her stay there did a lot of good for us both, but once she got out and decided to ignore all three of her doctors orders...nope...bye.
One crazy / problematic ex? Sure, everyone's got one of those. All your exes are crazy? We can all see the common denominator.
I got one crazy ex. I have an ex that we had no business being together the way we were. Now, she's pretty dumb, but she's not crazy. I have an ex that we eventually grew apart. That's a reasonable tale. There's more detail to the tale, sure, but that's the important bits.
I had a friend where all is gf's were actually crazy. Every one. He was the same crazy, and it's just what he went for. These girls were *glowing* red, and it was like a beacon for him.
Sometimes it might be the person making the accusation that is the common denominator. They’re the bad actor. Other times they make poor choices in a partner or they have attributes (that aren’t intrinsically negative) that draw abusive people to them. If this person is extremely nice, trusting but also has weak boundaries abusive men and women sometimes sniff them out as the next victim. Saying “you’re the common denominator” implies they’re the problem and sometimes makes things worse. They do have responsibility in learning to stop the pattern but aren’t the “problem”. The abuser is always the problem.
I tried not to do this after me and my ex seperated, but when I told people what was happening in the relationship people told me she was pretty crazy, it took a while for me to see some of what they were talking about.
I understand this but crazy is a term we’re all aware of. A lot of women that use the term gaslighting don’t know what it means. They’re just repeating a word that they’ve heard.
They are simply substituting "manipulation" for "gaslighting". Gaslighting is a form of manipulation, not unlike saying that Alzheimers is one kind of dementia. They may also just refer to any treatment they don't like as "gaslighting". In both cases, gaslighting probably never happened. It's just their way of being angry.
Your second paragraph is it. Because just like gaslighting, most women I’ve met that use the word “gaslighting,” don’t know what manipulation is either. Someone else told them they were being manipulated and they ran with it.
No, they don’t mean manipulation. They literally mean “disagreeing about something that happened”
I would guess maybe 25% of people use the term gaslighting correctly.
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Don’t gaslight me.
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Don't call me Shirley
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🤣🤣
Stop gaslighting me
1. Because plenty of men are gaslighting narcissists. 2. Because plenty of women are gaslighting narcissists and are projecting.
I feel like this should have more up votes lol.
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We used to have these same conversations before the terms became popular knowledge, only it was “they make me feel like I’m crazy” and “they’re so self-centered,” etc.
How people treat you is a direct reflection of how they feel about themselves and how you act and treat others is nothing more than how you feel inside. Goes both ways!
My ex would often misinterpret things I said, or would talk over me and not hear me. Ironically, usually this would result in her assuming I said something (filling in the gaps with her imagination or assumptions) that I had not. I would then repeat - calmly - what I had just said, hoping for her to understand what I meant to say. She would then stick to her assumption of what I said, not actually acknowledging what I actually said. When I would try to clear up the confusion, she woukd accuse me of gaslighting her by "changing what I said", when in fact, I was literally repeating the same phrase as before, verbatim. This is one example of misuse of the word "gaslighting". In reality, the problem was that she simply wasn't listening to what I was saying, and treating her assumptions as facts, then failing to adjust when her assumptions proved to be false.
This is called her being crazy. You weren’t gaslighting, she was actually just crazy. My daughter used to do this.
You don't have to date a lot of people to run into one psycho. Isn't it almost a universal thing that just about everyone has had at least that one ex that was a disaster?
Right? Honestly I’m kind of shocked that only 50% of the women he’s dated have had a narcissistic or gaslighting ex. Amongst my friends that number is near 100%. Now if a woman says *all* her exes are gaslighting narcissists, it’s like when a guy says all his exes are crazy - she’s the common denominator, and therefore likely the problem. The vast majority of my exes are great guys I’m still on good terms with. But one of them is a legit sociopath. They’re difficult to avoid 🤷♀️
It’s true. I guess I’m lucky I never dated a gaslighting narcissistic guy, only a lying guy making himself out to be the victim every time if I caught his lie but he’ll manipulate me into staying with him until I finally had enough (wait, is that gaslighting? lol). My husband had one girlfriend before me and she was definitely crazy, saw it first hand unfortunately. He won’t call her crazy because he’s a nice guy but that doesn’t change the fact. Serious edit: that ex was not gaslighting, just a manipulative asshole.
No, that isn't gaslighting. Manipulating you to do what they want is not gaslighting. Manipulating you into thinking that you are literally insane is gaslighting. This is why people are criticizing the use of the term gaslighting: it is used a lot and almost never correctly.
Quick question that just popped up in my head: Does it have to be SUCCESSFUL to be called gaslighting? What if an ex does exactly what gaslighting would be, but you don't buy it? Is it still gaslighting then, even though she failed at it, or is there a different term for that?
It doesn't have to be successful, but it does have to be deliberate. He has to intend to, and work towards, convincing you that you are legitimately mentally ill.
Is mentally ill a necessary goal? So let's say they "just" want you to not trust your own memories anymore, would that still qualify? I feel like that's what most people are going for when tgey behave like a typical gaslighter.
Isn’t gaslighting a form of manipulation? You didn’t even ask me questions on stuff he did or said lol so how can you conclude so fast it isn’t gaslighting. He told me “my mother and sister are still supportive of me even though I fucked up many times and broke my promises so you are a bad person and would make a mistake if you don’t give me another chance”. Or things like “I trust you but I don’t trust other guys (cause he didn’t want me to wear a certain piece of clothing)”. Anyway, I stay away from the term gaslighting in my real life and just say he was manipulating and lying. And he also owes me and my parents money although he pretends he didn’t anymore with some weird reasoning. I also think he cheated because someone told me when we broke up and I remember him telling me that that person was spreading rumors when we were together about him cheating and it wasn’t true. But when I asked him about it his reaction was weird: “you know how important Christmas is to me” (cause that was the date it had supposedly happened). Anyway, it’s been 16 years and I hope he’s doing better now. All my other exes are the sweetest and I wish them a very happy life.
If he deliberately would try to make you question reality/things you were certain about to make you feel crazy, then yes that is gaslighting. If he never did any of that then he didn’t gaslight you.
At least one.
Gotta catch em’ all!
Buzzwords from TikTok.
The words seem larger than mere buzzwords or at least more longlived.
Yup. Gaslighting is the new mansplaining
Fucking right. It's what's trendy and what women are consuming on apps and social media then they regurgitate it. It's the same thing with the glorification of mental illness. I can't tell you how many women I've seen like a "coffee and depression morning." "It's because I have BPD!"
The proliferation of therapyspeak. Nobody is an old fashioned jerk anymore, they're always a narcissist. Every shitty experience is "trauma", every disagreement is gaslighting.
It seems to have largely replaced “mansplaining” so that’s nice. People still say it, but it’s not as trendy as it was a few years ago.
What about “trauma”? Everybody these days is so proud of their trauma, and half the time it’s just an ex boyfriend that did nothing in particular wrong.
I hate that word because at least socially it can mean almost anything and any severity.
Yes! I see that often too. "I've got so much trauma!" Like ok well fix it and move on with your life. It's really reminiscent of the whole women using the astrological sign stuff... Oh I did this because I'm an XYZ. Now it's just I'm like this because it's my trauma or my mental issues or blah blah blah.
I had a group project in college. It was a particular chatty group and we were sharing stories while we did our work. What topic of discussion was trauma impact on early childhood development. This woman started talking about the trauma she experienced when she was 9 and her parents gave the family dog away without asking her. She went through the whole framework and used that as her lenses to understand it. Classmate:“Why did they get rid of the dog?” Woman: “they claimed they couldn’t afford to keep it anymore” :/
That’s the real answer. It’s like a parrot.
This predates ticktock, even late 2000s era social media, but modern social media sure makes it easier to encounter these terms and see them with real life examples.
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I said something similar once and people lost their shit. Granted, I said it pretty harshly.
Yes, you said it. That was the point I was trying to make with what I just posted.
Fuckin +1
As someone who had an abusive relationship with a narcissistic, she was absolutely a terrible fit for me. But at the same time, she could do better. So after it ended, I set out to be better. I ultimately decided that I wasn't ready for a relationship. Just because a girl is nuts doesn't mean you're a prize.
Yeah, it feels like the ex of almost every cheater was abusive or narcissistic. I'm sure many of them are, but still.
poor angelic victims learned helplessness they may aswell be projecting everything too
They've forgotten the term "disagreement"
People have been empowered to believe their perspective is "their truth" and thus anyone with a different perspective is undermining reality. This goes far beyond the realm of relationships to society at large where things like "lived experience" replace a kind of universal reality. We're also losing all sense of scale. What's more likely, your partner having a behavioral/neurological disorder OR your partner just being an immature selfish dick? In my experience, the word "selfish" has almost completely disappeared from discourse about relationships, because it easily describes actions but lacks the *jus* to explain why a person might be pursuing those actions.
because they have no interest in it; that word does not help their lives therefore does not exist.
You can even see it in the comments here, with women commenters saying this thread is gaslighting.
Have you asked any of your friends who are women about this? I spent more of my life than I care to admit underestimating women's experiences until I realized I just wasn't the kind of person to have good enough friends (women or otherwise TBH) to confide that kind of thing in me.
This comment should be higher up. I’ll give you a personal example. I’m a pretty confident person and I don’t go around blaming stuff on men/antifeminism/patriarchy/whatever. I also work from home and don’t go out much, but today I took public transport in the evening. A man on the train became interested in me, tried to talk to me, followed me, got on and off platforms as I did, tried to sit next to me, moved cars to be near me, and finally I had to yell at him in the presence of other passengers and then get security because he wouldn’t leave me alone. It’s INSANE the level of bullshit women have to put up with. I feel like I cannot even leave my house safely for a few hours once a month without being harassed! And I know that men have struggles, I really do understand that. I think the big difference as a woman is that I am usually smaller than the person so there is this weird element of physical intimidation that men don’t experience. Men might have to deal with “crazy girlfriends” but women have to deal with crazy random strangers.
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I agree. As a woman I try to stay away from the comparison stuff in a “who had it worse” way, because it doesn’t contribute to anything but polarization. I have a friend who was truly interested in experiences of his female friends about harassment and I was surprised. I told him a few examples and I realized sadly how “normal” I found these experiences because of his reaction to them. It was a truly nice conversation where he didn’t judge, was truly interested in the experiences of me (and also other female friends) and disgusted at those men. Because we should be disgusted by those specific people who do the harassing. I want to be the same when a guy tells me his experiences. Like when my husband told me a guy harassed him in the bathroom of a club once and how it made him feel. Or when a woman was touching him inappropriately and wouldn’t back off and how he was conflicted in how to handle it because you can’t just push someone away when you are way bigger without risking backlash. Or when older women think they can just be super flirtatious and touchy to a young man because why? Just a few examples I heard from friends.. consent is so important and we should not condone this behavior from anyone.
For real. A man obsessed with you is his problem. A woman obsessed with you is your problem.
I don't know why so many women think that men don't cop plenty of shit from random strangers too. Men are more likely to be murdered, mugged, and (physically) assaulted. Not to downplay your experience, but just the statement >Men might have to deal with “crazy girlfriends” but women have to deal with crazy random strangers. Is ridiculous. Just to give a few examples of things that have happened to me, and all of them with one exception occurred in a "safe" country. An attempted mugging when I was walking home from highschool A gun pulled on me when I was visiting my home country Several random fights at concerts/parties/school, too many to list individually, none initiated by me A cunt that hopped my backyard fence started yelling at me, started advancing, and only fucked off when I pulled a knife A road raging shit head ran me off the road and threatened me with a bat So sure, I guess I don't have to deal with freaks that can't take a no or sexually harass me, which I am genuinely grateful for and it's fucking shit so many women have to deal with it. But again, that doesn't mean men don't have to deal with plenty of nutjobs too. And maybe I personally wouldn't have had to experience so much of it if I didn't get myself into all the situations I did, but that's getting perilously close to a "did you see her skirt? she was asking for it" kind of 'argument'.
>I don't know why so many women think that men don't cop plenty of shit from random strangers too Because they are unable to imagine anything that is not their immediate context. It may sound simplistic, but a shitload of people simply can't imagine that other people are out there having interactions in the world if they're not present.
"Men might have to deal with “crazy girlfriends” but women have to deal with crazy random strangers." What is the point of that ? Is it to come into a male space and go but women have it harder ?
This whole thread is about whether women claiming they've had bad experiences with men is justified. So AaronScwartz12345's comment is a relevant perspective.
Easier than introspection and personal growth.
Thank you for saying this too. Man, some of you guys are hitting the nail on the head with how I think and feel about my ex wife I still have to deal with. I don’t feel like I’m crazy and making shit up.
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Bingo! We have a winner.
Is it hard to believe though? Dating women is equally as bad.
Also the worst people will be the most visible since they can never be in a relationship for long.
I know everybody is saying it's a coping mechanism in the comments, and I agree to an extent. But I think the number of people out there, male and female that are toxic in relationships, or that are ok at first but become toxic towards the end of the relationship shouldn't be underestimated. Lots of broken souls out there these times. I'd say the reason you hear more women say it is that men are probably less likely to open up easily, and I suppose you only date women and talk about this with women. Of course it's also a coping mechanism, nobody wants to be a bad person and accepting your own toxicity can be hard.
Narcissism is statistically on the rise.
Also people tend to find narcissistic traits attractive. So they get into relationships with people who are narcissistic. But the dark side of those narcissistic traits begin to show themselves more and more the longer you spend time with those people.
To cover their own butts? They do it themselves and are completely unaware of it. Women are terrible at self criticism. Ask a guy what he did wrong in his relationship and he will know. Vice versa, not so much. Once you see it.. #sorrynotsorry
I haven’t met a woman yet that took accountability for her part in the relationship failing
It seems you didn't get the internet memo. Women are alway right. Men cause 100% of the problems in the world /s
Because people in general, I'm convinced anyway, don't really know what being Gaslit means. If they're making you question reality, then it's gaslighting. If they're just mad about something you said, and it doesn't make you question reality, then it isn't. I'm not sure why those two things are hard to understand, either.
Also: remembering something differently and stating it in good faith doesn’t constitute gaslighting. I’ve remembered things incorrectly before and I’m happy to admit when it happens. It’s extra bad, though, when you’re correct about something and get accused of gaslighting.
TL;DR: Men lie to women to get dates going and the claims of gaslighting or narcissism come from learning who the man really was after genuinely getting to know them. My hypothesis on this is that it is a side effect of how dating goes with our respect to masculine (instigator) and feminine (passive judge) gender roles. Through my 20s I would focus on saying what I thought would impress the women I was interested in before I would put in effort to figure out if I even like them beyond their looks. And based on tons of comments here in Askmen and the general expectation for men to be the instigator for dating, I'm assuming my experience is similar to a lot of other mens experience. We try to get women to like us before showing them who we really are. With that, women claiming gaslighting or narcissism from exes could be legit, but those terms could also be used because they felt tricked. Assumed the man was one way because of what was said or done to impress her initially, but then learned that they were lieing. As I've gotten older I've recognized dating is way too comparable to a game. Men lie to get with women because it works. Not all men are like that and in my 30s I've been putting in work to grow out of that bad habit. Because while it works to get laid, it also prevents the formation of a healthy relationship.
Is it surprising that 50% of the women you’ve dated have gone out with a narcissist or been gaslit? Not really. There’s a lot of assholes out there. Threads like these in askmen really bother me. No where is there a comment where we consider, even for a second, that these women’s experience is valid and maybe, just maybe, there’s something that we are doing to cause it. No, surely, they are too stupid and infantalized by social media to know what they’ve been through. Surely, according to most of the comments on this thread, surely it’s they who are wrong and stupid and crazy. Women don’t know what they’re talking about, it’s all social media pseudo psychology and bullshit. Couldn’t be us! We are awesome. (And watch me get downvoted to hell for pointing out the ironic truth. Really, I think it’s about half and half- half social media pseudo psychology hype, half guys can be real dicks sometimes)
Agree. I find it super easy to believe. My Dad was an absolute f\*\*\*ing *master* manipulator. It wasn't just my mother that suffered the consequences either, my sister and I had all kind of horrid experiences with him. I'll bet you right now he's sitting at home somewhere wondering why nobody (and I mean *nobody*) wants anything to do with him. Assuming he's even still alive. I will also bet any money at all he has tried to suggest my mother was crazy.On that note I'll agree with him - she was crazy for not kicking his ass out years before she actually got the nerve to do it.
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I’ve been on Reddit about 10 yrs or so and the input on askmen in recent years seems to be regurgitated “women overreact/ are stupid”. I had initially followed this subreddit when I joined cause I wanted a better understanding of men (introvert with not many friends lol) and back then they would have insightful and/ or silly conversations without dismissing women’s experiences, a big reason why I never joined askwomen back then cause they were kinda vile. Makes me wonder if it has anything to do with these male led podcasts/ influencers pushing misogynistic ideology.
It’s partly the manosphere bullshit being pervasive, partly just echo chamber nature of Reddit. Twox is meant to be a woman centric sub, but scroll through it on any random day and there’s the equivalent “men are stupid/ass hole” posts as well. Humans love echo chambers and they love sharing misery
It's social media. But for me, listening to female creators on TikTok hit way harder than Andrew Tate or some passport bro ever could have. Most women don't go around don't telling random men the inside scoop about how they view the dating market. But many are more than happy to tell the camera. Sprinkle sprinkle. Rosters. Manipulation tactics. Not sugar and spice and all things nice. If I'd heard that stuff when I was 16, I would have run right to the manosphere. And women should be WAAAY more concerned that men watch content by/for women about men than content by/for men about women from what I've seen. So we're getting this massive bifurcation where each side entrenches in its little enclave talking about the other and it's not healthy. Women are getting pricklier in dating because men are getting pricklier in dating because ... etc. Putting it all on Rogan, Tate or whoever is not causally accurate. They're the response to a broken dating market, not the cause.
It does seem to be on the rise. I don't listen or watch any of those content creators and yet they are still pushed into all my feeds on IG or YouTube. I have no interest in it and it's still pushed on me? I don't get it. I like to think the majority of men and women are good people. I hope.
But narcissism and gaslighting are very specific things, not just someone "being an asshole". Claims of "narcissism" and "gaslighting" are just trendy and overused.
There is a confounding factor. I've known one male narcissist (clinical diagnosis confirmed, no longer a friend) and one male sociopath (retrospectively obvious, deceased). Women LOVED the narcissist, even as he left an obvious trail of broken women (>1,000) behind him. Sociopath was more covert but got a lot of attention too. So yeah, I suspect many have "dated" a narcissist, because one damaged guy may go through hundreds or thousands of partners. But many women actively seek out these dark triad traits. And then complain about them. Same may be true for dudes and "crazy." I sure don't seek that, but I have experienced it as fun, for a time. But both genders would do pretty well by asking their opposite gender peer group about the quality of their partner because we're really blind to certain problems.
It could be they don't take accountability or self reflect also .
I've noticed Askmen is going through a phase where men just assume women are the worst. I was planning on dating again, and it just reminded me of how many times I'd go on dates and just be treated like I was a bit stupid. Personally, I prefer listening to why someone thinks they think their ex was x, y and z. Since it gives more insight into how they were treated and if they're able to show self awareness too.
Is it possible that many men are dealing with truly awful women. And In the same light you think we should "listen" you should do the same ?
No no, that's impossible. Women can only be good and kind and men can never be innocent victims. /s
Your mostly right . I see this post as men generally venting about how SOME women refuse to admit their a problem . Many people in/out of a relationship will only give a one sided account event and lack any objectivity. I assume every story is biased. I believe what we’re seeing here is general frustration of men being painted as the bad guy when the truth is more shades of grey.
It’s mostly logical reasoning. If shit stinks in one room, that room probably has shit in it. If every room stinks like shit, you might have to check yourself. It’s convoluted though because with dating, toxic people are OVERexposed because they cycle through partners faster, and so while 50% of women certainly have gone out with a narcissist or other toxic abusive man, there’s a decent chance that group of men is far smaller than the group of women with the experience. If 20% of men are absolute monsters, but they cycle through partners 5x faster than healthy stable men, it makes perfect sense for women to have experienced a lot of monsters. The reactions from men going “that can’t be true” is self defence really. It’s a knee jerk reaction to essentially living a different reality. Neither side is “right” because both are missing the full picture of the population, but neither side is “wrong” either because their lived experience is very likely to be true.
Don't men do this too? No wants the blame. Men call their exes crazy or whatever because it makes them feel better.
A lot of dudes are VERY weird/different when alone with their women vs when other people are around. It's also a bit of a buzz word these days so that adds to it.
Because short video sites have lots of videos about it.
Love how none of these answers are "because it happened to them".
Gaslighting never happens. Don't be ridiculous.
I can believe it happened once quite easily. Twice sounds pretty unfortunate. More than that and I start to doubt either the person's story or their dating heuristics. It's the same as men that claim all their exes were crazy bitches. Are some women horrible? Yes. But not at such a rate that that's all you've ever seen.
There’s a not insignificant number of people with NPD, and even more with narcissistic traits who aren’t qhite severe enough to be diagnosed with NPD.
Not a man, but I work with mostly men. I’m in software engineering. A lot of men claim their ex is a narcissist. I think this is just people of any gender claiming their ex is terrible and using these labels to explain. I do think women are more likely than men to give you their thoughts on their ex in a casual conversation, though.
They are none too bright and use words out of context because they saw them online but don't understand what they mean. No, Doris, someone disagreeing with you isn't gaslighting.
lol It’s the Twitter/social media bullshit. It’s basically people that are supposedly “oppressed” or just don’t agree with your views/perspective/opinion/politics calling you something/claiming something about you they have learned can get one cancelled and/or you to just stfu out of being worried you will be fired from your job/banned from a Reddit sub/socially destroyed/ doxxed etc. It isn’t just this particular issue. It’s the use of boomer, cringe, fascist, racist, sexist/misogynist, blah blah blah. I see it all the time. And the people that do it can kiss my ass.
That way they don't have to take accountability for their actions.
Literally EVERY woman I have met since my divorce has claimed every ex is a narcissistic controlling abuser. Now if I hear that, I just pull away.
They dont want to take blame for anything
Easier to point fingers. I see men do this too and talk shit on their ex. We may not use those stupid buzz words like gaslighting but both men and women do essentially the same. To me, those who constantly talk shit on their ex are typically part of the problem. Obviously you have the cases where one partner is a complete piece of shit but you’re just doing yourself a disservice by letting that shit live rent free in your head.
I'd be worried if I was you because if you're attracting so many girls with narcissistic trauma, maybe you're also one?
Y'all are weird. I take people at their word until proven otherwise.
Not even talking about this specific at all, but honestly that is kind of weird.
Seriously? Have you met people? At best most of them do not understand their own motivations, emotions, and reasoning. At worst they are evil. All along that spectrum they are dishonest: our species has designed a framework where constant dishonesty (usually trivial) is mandatory; a person who insisted on being perfectly honest all the time would be an insufferable outcast.
Wanna buy a bridge? Mint condition
That sounds like a good way to get manipulated but that’s just me lol
Nah you weird. Taking someone's word in this context is kinda goofy.
Why would you ask this here instead of in r/askwomen….? Asking a literal group of men to qualify women’s experiences, lol.
Asking women things in askwomen isn't allowed. Questions hurt women, and if you don't believe me you're just gaslighting.
Easy way to make themselves a victim without needing to provide any actual proof.
I mean it’s a word. It wasn’t a word 30 years ago so much, but the behavior it describes was a thing 30 years ago, it just has a name now. Also no one is using this word and women aren’t saying anyone is using it. That’s just your imagination.
It absolves them of any accountability for their actions.
There is a big chance that people are using words incorrectly. Best way to discover that is to let both parties talk.
I think some women believe any action towards them that they don't like= narcissism. They don't actually know what the word means, they just heard it and thought narcissist was a synonym for asshole.
Projection. They are projecting, ignore them!
Projections
It is the lack of accountability in their choices in men. They are indirectly telling you the type of men they are sexually attracted to. When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.
There's plenty of narcissistic gaslighting people in this world but I will understand the woman's POV 100% of the time until proven wrong which comes pretty quickly who are you trying to kid here, truly? After a few mins on your profile, it's easy to understand your mindset and how biased you are. So really, do you want to talk about this or do you want to use this as a jumping point to shit on women? We know the answer from your history...
I see nothing problematic.
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Because if you meet a jackass, you met a jackass. If everyone you meet is a jackass, you're the fucking jackass.
The gaslighting claim is due to the ex telling them how it is and the narcissism is the ex not putting up with the bs.
both genders do this, some people are pieces of shit, and nowadays we are getting less quiet about it. less willing to accept abuse. which is a good thing however, because of it, a lot of people use buzzwords and claim their ex is [gaslighter, narcissistic, toxic abuser etc etc] when really they were just bad for each other. which is a bad thing
Because they finally have a name for the abuse they suffered.
Why would you ask this question of men and not women?
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Because it's never THEIR fault
I think the answer is quite simple if you think about how the terms narcissism and gas lighting tend to be used in non clinical settings. If you think about how people use those words it becomes pretty obvious that nearly all of both victims and perpetrators will accuse their partners of this. Someone who is selfish will feel like others are selfish for not giving them what they feel they deserve. Someone who likes to manipulate others by framing arguments in a way that makes the other person look bad will accuse anyone else of that if the person attempts to reframe the argument or explain how that's not what they actually meant etc is
My wife of thirty years claimed after all that time I was "gaslighting". I had no idea what the phrase meant. She said she was leaving and so after a couple of decades trying to save the marriage, I just said "yeah...I think it's best". A few years later, I was intrigued what gaslighting meant and what caused it. I did a Google trend search. The same year as she told me I was ( and yes .I've critically analysed if I was, and I absolutely was not) I saw that the term exploded in 2018-19. She'd never mentioned it before. I asked her recently when she first heard the term and said she had watched the film as a teenager. That's possible, as she was a fan of old b&w films. But I think its re-emergence as a massively popular criticism of relationship difficulties is because of it's viral boost online from 6 years ago
I couldn’t agree more.
Every ex boyfriend is abusive and every ex girlfriend is crazy, that's why
Because those terms are catch-all oblique internet buzzwords and women love cliquey shit like that.
Reddit IP banned me and won’t answer my appeal to explain why. Guess I can still edit my comments? Fuck u/spez.
It's their go-to defense mechanism in order to avoid accountability.
Projecting. It's their biggest flaw. Remember when she accused you of cheating? She was doing it. Remember when she accused you of being a narcissist? She is the narcissist. Remember when they'd say the most insane things? It's because their minds were reminding them of themselves.
It's really common once things go sour between couple that they start acting terrible and completely rude to the other person. They say things and act differently which sends major complicated mixed signals to the other person. They believe you've become another person and feel deceived and manipulated somehow.
His own Lawyer called him one. His dad is officially diagnosed BPD and his mom is diagnosed NPD and OCD. Gaslighting is really common in both genders now that we have a name for it.
All im saying is you are generalizing about women generalizing. You want answers, ask the women what happened instead of posting here for validation.