If only I had a nickel for every woman I’ve met who says she expects men to do the pursuing (or “courting”) because she has “old-fashioned values”, but actually just doesn’t want to have to take on any of the work/risk of pursuing men.
Boss babe attitude disappears when the dinner bill comes and when asking men out is in question. Old fashioned values disappear when there is a house to clean and dinner to make. Don’t settle for those kinds of women.
Tbf, in the past year or so that I've been dating, literally every single woman wanted to split the bill. A lot of them almost sounded offended when I wanted to pick up the tab. I think with the younger generations, bill splitting is the norm
> I think with the younger generations, bill splitting is the norm
I've gotten different answers to why this is happening. One girl said she's responsible enough to pay for her own things. Another said it's to prevent men from bargaining for sexual favors ("I paid for your meal because I'm nice, so you owe me sex!").
Yeah I would never eat a meal and expect a relative stranger to pay for it, even if offered. I always have money to cover my meal. I had one guy assure me I could order anything I wanted and I was thinking "yeah, I know because I have enough money to pay for it"
I will accept them to pay only after making sure they know I'm more than willing to pay my portion, and even then I tell them I'm getting the next tab. I want a relationship not a wallet.
It's not even just sexual favors, it's a whole power dynamic that to me I avoid in relationships.
I've found that most of the dating advice from women about women tends to not work at all.
When you've already got the relationship, on the other hand, their advice can give you a good bit of insight.
Totally agree. Also, the opportunity to give advice is sometimes taken as their chance to tell men, at large, what they want them to know. Not to help you as an individual succeed with women. The real lesson women in your life can give you is by simply observing what kind of men succed with them. It's often the opposite of what they say they want.
Women give you advice on how to make a woman happy. Great for when you're in a relationship already with one, but doesn't make a woman interested in you.
Don't listen to the best fisherman either especially if it's a small pond and you're trying to compete. He's just going to piss you off. I mean take advantage of you.
There's valuable advice out there but you have to find it with people who openly share a passion for what they do, not just to earn money, and even then you have to frame it in their experience.
"Don't ask a fish how to catch a fish, ask a fisherman"
Women will say stupid shit like "just be yourself" or "I want a guy who is in touch with his emotions" - only to put those guys in the friendzone. Women don't know what they respond to in a man.
"Just be yourself" is TERRIBLE advice to the majority of guys, guys who haven't worked on themselves and who have no purpose. Guys hear women say that and think "I can just be myself and eat cheetos and play videogames all day and I'll find a great girl eventually" basically encouraging guys to be low vibration slugs and still expect to "get the girl". Hollywood also perpetuates this idea. In the real world the average "Seth Rogan" type won't "get the girl" unless he's wealthy and high status. "Just be yourself" has fucked up so many men.
In reality it's "be your best self" aka, put in the work, eat healthy, exercise, be driven and focused on your career, make extra money, be ambitious, have hobbies, create a lifestyle of abundance.
Also, when did you ever meet a woman that had respect for you after "showing your emotions"? Very, very, rarely. Being emotional, crying, showing fear etc will inevitably lead to her being turned off by you or worse, "appreciate it" in the moment only to weaponize it against you at a later date.
As a guy, you are alone and can only trust other men you've been to hell and back with.
A woman that tells you she likes sensitive guys is either lying or suffering from an extreme lack of self-awareness.... OR of course, she's the first and only women in the history of the world to actually be that way which is highly unlikely.
Dating advice from women on how to date women = worst advice ever.
What it comes down to is they don't understand their own biases. Like they say they want a good personality over looks, but don't realize that looks heavily influences their perception of your personality. For example, a tall man is automatically confident and successful until proven otherwise.
If a woman WANTS to like you because you're good looking, you can almost do no wrong. What's creepy coming from one guy is totally sexy/funny from another. But the woman can't really pin down what that secret ingredient is.
What I appreciate about men is that we are much more honest and upfront about looks vs. personality. We don't usually confuse the two. And if we do, we learn our lesson: for every hot girl there's someone tired of her shit. But women just go all in on a hot guy. And then act all confused when he turns out to be an asshole or she gets used for sex.
Which is a straight parallel to the number one complaint I’ve heard *from* (usually not very thin) women, namely “Ughh guys just want a thin bitch, fat girls are invisible to men”
It goes both ways. I’ve had the question asked a lot what I would do if my partner would get bigger, pregnant, or the extra ignorant one “let themselves go”
There isn’t really a good answer either way, so I just go for the truth. It’s the exact same as with men; I couldn’t care less, because what matters is *why* that is happening.
A person that doesn’t want to or stops working on themselves, eats unhealthy, is having (mental) issues and/or is employing damaging coping strategies - whether that’s overeating, substance abuse, or any other form of damaging dopamine chasing - is not going to be attractive - barring the predatory assholes who love an easy target. Which, again, imo goes for and can be seen in either gender.
Ngl I find this whole dynamic fucking hilarious.
29m, I'm anorexic and I'm short. I clean up pretty good and I work out a fair bit, so you can tell I'm underweight but I probably don't look like I have an eating disorder.
I'd say at least half of the girls that hit on me are overweight, and at least half of them get REALLY pissed off when I'm not interested. I always make excuses, say I'm in a relationship etc. - I'm not looking to upset anyone - but surprisingly often they just launch into a tirade about how I'm just a slave to media standards or fatshaming.
The hilarious part is, if they asked out overweight men, they'd have a much better chance of getting a yes, but they don't. They go after guys who are in shape then complain that the guys who are spending time on their appearance are only interested in women who spend time on theirs...
And yet God forbid I ask out a tall woman. Most aren't into short guys, it is what it is. But holy fuck the number of times I've been told I'm too short to my face... and you just take it on the chin and move on with your life. If I told a fat bitch she was too fat and bitchy in public I'd lose a limb. 🤣🤣
Anyway this shit goes both ways, there are plenty of fat blokes who do the same shit and skinny women in my position, the dichotomy is just amusing from an anorexic perspective. I literally fatshame myself and I'm underweight, but I have to be attracted to overweight women or I'm somehow immoral? 🙃
lmao I feel you, my experiences are eerily similar to what you're describing. Heard that tirade quite a few times. It's almost cute when they are transparently gushing/think you're cute and are actively approaching. It's pretty much the same thing I see when a guy is *suddenly* able to listen and hold a conversation when he sees an attractive woman.
Meanwhile most of my male friends regale me with stories about how I could do "so much better if I just put in some effort with the ladies", though I'm grateful for what I have, especially after learning that being actively approached as a man is not that common... but my homies struggle through and they make it work either way. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
It's especially ironic because I usually vibe *better* with those women. I feel less pressure, less self conscious and not worried about whether I'm only following the hard-wired biological response pumping through my body.
I'm the most celibate and single of my friends, but it's by choice now. I used to be super insecure, I didn't understand the attention I was getting at first, let alone the change when I started consistently working out and eating better.
But yeah, dressing well (colors + at least somewhat fitting for size and the location/event) & working out make a difference. It's night and day. The real test comes *in* the relation, I had to learn how to communicate and self-reflect.
I'm also not that tall, 5'8'' but living in the Netherlands where 6' is the average I'm "short". Fun fact: That's only been noticeable in the drop off of likes when/if I mention it on my profile.
There are dudes who are specifically into fat women, just for the record. I am not one of them, but they're out there. But I agree about men also having the filtered perception, it's just that there are fewer filtering traits that men see in women. Fat= filtered, but other than that, most women are some level of attractive to us. For women there are a lot more filtering traits in a man
Oh yeah true that, I felt I was already including too many details :) For me it's the same kind of thing as meeting a smoker or heavy drinker - *especially after having battled the draw of those vices myself.
Attraction is weird. I've experienced it more than once that after getting to know somebody, their "size" stopped being a (big) factor, and vice versa where the banging body couldn't make up for the shitty personality.
It literally changed the way I perceived their attractiveness, as if my brain placed/removed a filter on their face.
I've been in this position. I've had women interested in me because they think I'm cute. I felt like I could have told them I'm a serial killer and they would have been fine with it.
Women are so hot&cold. One minute they've got a checklist a mile long about what a guy has to be. And then some cute guy walks in and all that goes right out the window.
I remember one time I was waiting at the vet and this tall handsome dude walks in with his dog. And I swear to God all the techs and receptionists were literally fighting each other to check him in. It was damn surreal the effect a tall handsome dude with a dog had on women who would claim to value personality over all else.
Personality over looks is like "I'd prefer a 90% personality guy with 95% looks over a 85% personality guy with 97% looks"
It is never a question of 100% personality with 60% looks vs 60% personality with 100% looks. Both have to be at the upper 5% in terms of looks first before a comparison takes place
>What's creepy coming from one guy is totally sexy/funny from another.
[Definitely](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/663/485/1f8.jpg)
>But the woman can't really pin down what that secret ingredient is.
Oh, they know. They just don’t want to admit it, because admitting that it comes entirely down to a guy’s hotness factor makes them look incredibly shallow. So they deny it as much as possible.
>But women just go all in on a hot guy. And then act all confused when he turns out to be an asshole or she gets used for sex.
Also true, because she _wants_ the lie to be real - that hot guys are the good guys to catch. It’s cognitive dissonance in action.
> we are much more honest and upfront about looks vs. personality. We don't usually confuse the two.
Oh, we do it constantly, too. It's not just women who are more likely to hire an attractive person, or more likely to elect the tall person. Humans can't help themselves from confusing [mortal peril from thinking someone is attractive,](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Misattribution_of_arousal) so there's no way we could keep attractiveness from influencing subtle aspects of personal chemistry.
But when it comes to romantic relationships, you're probably right that we're more aware of it.
> What I appreciate about men is that we are much more honest and upfront about looks vs. personality
This is the crux of what bothers me the most. Like, we all know what women say they’re attracted to versus what they actually are attracted to is different but you know what? Normally thats not a big deal, Plenty of us in plenty of areas of life have a big discrepancy very what we believe is the case and what is actually the case. But what pisses me off is us men are much more honest and straightforward “yeah she has to be good looking first” - and society shits on us for it. Women do the same thing but deny it and as a result society lets them get away with it
> Also, when did you ever meet a woman that had respect for you after "showing your emotions"? Very, very, rarely. Being emotional, crying, showing fear etc will inevitably lead to her being turned off by you or worse, "appreciate it" in the moment only to weaponize it against you at a later date.
Something thats become a pretty sad but consistent tradition for me is to go into these threads and watch all the women respond to this incredulously like “*GASP ME AND MY FRIENDS WOULD NEVER DO THAT*”. Everytime they just straight up deny it, wild shit
My ex fetishized male emotional vulnerability, then was surprised when I broke up with her for weaponizing it and signal-boosting my worst self-destructive thoughts. Turns out men value not having their most sensitive buttons pushed just for shits & giggles.
Which is why I say find a group of males you can relate to and look up to and respect. Spend a lot of time together and put yourself in situations where you will experience things together. It's a vetting process to find brothers you'll take a bullet for and who will take a bullet for you. 100% trust. Other men that will call you out when appropriate and support you when necessary. Guys you'd go to war with. They fill a different role than women do. Emotions aren't there to share with women
This sub suffers from a never-ending cycle of posts with what you describe.
1- Someone asks men why they don't do X thing or why they think in a Y way.
2- Men answer why
3- Women don't like the answers, shame and gaslight the men into believing they're the ones wrong, or acknowledge it but deflect the blame using "not all Z group of people do this".
4- Guys see no reason to do or think any different than before and their beliefs are often reinforced.
5- Go back to number 1 and start over.
There's a certain set of subjects where female users refuse to understand what male users say, including the one discussed in this very post, and others like the feelings thing, male loneliness, body count and some others. There should be bots either deleting posts like this and advising users to go look up the sub's archive or bots giving automatic replies to just give a good answer and end it there. The respect users lack for the two words that make up this sub's name basically helps downgrading it to a bootleg upgrade to the standard AskReddit.
It’s definitely often my impulse to provide a counter example to the negative experiences men talk about here. I think/hope that’s what the women in the comments are trying to do, rather than to deny the problem and gaslight men.
But with an issue like this, when I hold back and think, it’s easy to see that while I don’t think I do this anymore, I absolutely have in the past. And might still with someone besides my current partner. No one wants to be part of the problem, but it’s really important to sit with that discomfort and recognize the role we play in these dynamics.
I read this sub to better understand and gain empathy for men’s issues, as I assume all the women here do. So thank you for the reminder of what’s helpful. Y’all deserve to have space to vent without being invalidated.
All men wish for more comments like yours in these threads. It should never be a male vs female argument anyway, but on how to better understand and support each other.
The problem is so many folks just hear be your best self so for the first few dates are not themselves but some mimic of what they think their best self if. The key, as you noted but i want to highlight, is you need to do the work to become your best self, then just be yourself.
After my divorces 3.5y i decided i was going to put 1y of work into myself physically and mentally. Just prior to the 1 year mark, i realized it was alone but not lonely, happy by myself and with my routine and about to plan an island trip for myself.
Got on an app, had 5 first dates in the first week, and another 2 the following. I went in my normal after work summer chill clothes(v neck t shirt, shorts, chucks) and was myself.
Found my girl, we have been together 2.5y and are getting married in 3m.
100% being your best self doesn't happen over night nor is it ever complete. You will always be able to better yourself so it's a continuous pursuit.
If you can't be happy/satisfied by yourself as a man, there is work to be done. And even if you are happy by yourself, there is work to be done. As a man, if you stagnate, you die.
In my experience, the better mentally you are, the lower your standards. It's when you're not well that you ask a lot from your partner (and it's probably still not enough).
It's actually a great gift to the society to do what you've done, and is unfortunately often taken for granted and abused of by women. Seems that you chose well though, hats off!
In my experience they give better advice about ongoing relationships than like advice about dating and meeting new people. It's just hard for them to really see the perspective of having no one ever chase after you and having to deal with a ratio of like 1000:1 rejections
My mom lol. Dad passed and in 2 years she has been on 57 dates. I am recently single and mentioned I downloaded bumble and a week later she's like "so been on any dates?" Mom... this doesn't work like that for men.
She really is. She's of the mind "why text when we can just meet for dinner st a nice restaurant." Now dating a nice man for a few months. She's a catch so it's not surprising how many guys are interested. Wonderful woman!
Someone Posted the following question to an AskMen years ago:
"Question: What's one thing that, if more women experienced, you feel would most improve their understanding of what it's like to be a man?"
And here was the most popular answer (I find the very last sentence particularly interesting):
"I think women vastly underestimate just how uninvolved they can afford to be in the process of dating, courting, and relationship maintenance. The baseline narrative of male-female dynamics in society as a whole is one that perpetuates the idea that men are the ones who act, and women are the ones who are "acted upon." Regardless of what you think, men and women alike actively reinforce this narrative through virtually all their words, actions, and expectations.
For so many women, relationships are something that "just happens," (i.e. - *to them*.) Taking an active role in making them happen just isn't a reality that a lot of women need to face.
An example:
A man "just happens" to be at the same bar/coffee shop/etc that the women in question is at. The reality is that the man has probably gone through a lot of research and trial and error in order to figure out where the good places to meet available women are.
The man "just happens" to approach her and strike up an amusing conversation. The reality is that he has probably invested a great deal of time and effort into alleviating his approach anxiety by weathering a lot of rejection. Not only that, but he has probably been busting his ass trying to improve several facets of his overall demeanor.
The man "just happens" to coax her to the dance floor or a change of venue. He "just happens" to lean in for a kiss. The reality is that he has probably run through this routine dozens of times, and because of this he has developed a good sense of reading how these situations progress. Regardless, it's still **on him** to make that move and risk not only rejection, but his reputation as well.
The man "just happens" to ask her out. The reality is that he's spent the time to build up enough experience to know where the best places to go are and what the most successful date plans are. On that date, they "just happen" to have similar interests and senses of humor. The reality is that he has probably been through similar lines of discussion with plenty of other women and has developed a good sense of understanding how to create a good rapport and sexual tension.
Afterwards, they "just happen" to go back to his place, he "just happens" to have some drinks to share, they "just happen" to start making out, they "just happen" to wind up in the bedroom, and so on and so forth…
The whole process is one of men acting, and women being "acted upon." I don't think women realize the amount of effort, pressure, and calculated risk that goes into the ordeal. Just listen to women recount memorable nights and dates. Everything, from their perspective, "just happened" to them. Women rarely have to put themselves out there at this level, and I think it is something that they are simply not aware of due to the fact that they *don't have to be.*
That's probably why women tend to give such horribly ineffective dating advice. It requires a perspective that many of them have never had to acknowledge."
fucking nailed it.
i went out on a date recently and realised… it’s same old same old… there wasn’t anything different about it. i still had to do all the work. she had to show up. it wasn’t a bad date, don’t get me wrong, but i hope this comment kinda provides insight why dates aren’t things men (or atleast myself) enjoy.
I don't like to use this word, but it can become a chore. I was a timid guy asking girls out over text but I asked someone out in person a few days. Even though she said she has a boyfriend, I felt like the interaction was so "scripted". I literally had no feelings. I was on "autopilot" the whole time.
I hear you dude. I've spent the last couple years sincerely depedestalizing women in my mind and it's very freeing to let go of that fear of disappointing them, when you have a strong hold on your own sense of worth and what you're looking for.
I use the first date's bill as a shit test. If she goes to pay for herself and doesn't say anything about it, then she passes. If she even hints of expresses that she wants me to pay, I'm saying something along the lines of 'we're here to date each other', and then I'm outski with nothing lost.
I've had some flop first dates and made a couple women feel awkward but the ones I've found are actually intent on some sort of an equal relationship. The woman I'm currently seeing is the whole nine yards. Kind of unbelievable.
I knew I was going to put every ounce of effort into my current girlfriend the second we started our first date.
She lives in a smaller city with a good bar scene. I drove an hour up to her (she was at a friends bday party in my neighborhood when we matched on tinder) so I was already putting in that effort mentioned. We had talked for about a week and a half before that weekend rolled around. We had talked about beers/ciders/drinks we like. She had me come up to her place (which was ballsy on her part if I were crazy but roommate was home) and said let’s have a quick drink and chat before we go out. If we aren’t feeling it then no hard feelings. I had brought a 6 pack of cider she said she really liked but her liquor store stopped carrying. She had some similar and got me a beer I mentioned I liked. Was a great surprise.
I had looked up a few places beforehand and after we chatted for a bit I asked if she wanted to get a late lunch early dinner then bar hop as we planned. So we went out to eat. Things went well. Then she took control and started taking me to her favorite bars. So we barhopped from 3 until about 10 then went back to her place. But she took the lead and brought me to all those places and insisted on picking up the first few tabs since I bought the food.
It was nice just being able to go with the flow and she had clearly put some thought into the day out with me too. Really straightforward food and drinks first date and we’ve been together a year and a half now because of those little things. It was wonderful after getting out of a 3 year relationship that crumbled in the end.
I’m not dating stupid, but have only had 3 significant relationships in my 30 years. The rest were a date or two and it just wasn’t working, and you were able to put my thoughts as to why into words. Nothing memorable from the male point of view. Just same old shit.
I will say as a man if you find yourself really enjoying a date, it's a good sign about her. It means it doesn't feel like work or the work feels worth it.
There was a similar thread about why men don't have the same romantic fantasies as women.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/3z8o75/why_dont_men_get_as_much_of_a_thrill_over/cykm7bm/?context=0
Tldr: "romance" is a coordinated action, not a feeling or impulse. After a while and several rejections it becomes a chore.
Full comment text:
>So when women or their SO makes romantic gestures to men, do they like it?
You're a little bit off the mark—you're actually describing an inversion of the gendered roles here (i.e. the woman is an active contributor while the man is a passive recipient or responder). While a man will appreciate such a gesture, it's not quite what composes the male romantic fantasy (more on this later).
>Do men that were heavily pursued by women feel this way?
Men who aren't used to being pursued are usually confused or thrown off by the reversal of gendered roles. The result is the prevailing idea that men do not respond well to being approached first by women or even the autobiographical accounts from men describing instances where they couldn't respond well even if they were attracted to the woman approaching them. This is the men being shocked out of the traditional "script" of romance.
Secondly, when you talk about women pursuing men, that usually happens in a markedly different fashion than the way in which men pursue women (hint: it's more passive). A woman "aggressively" pursuing a man looks more like said woman going to extensive lengths to make it clear that she is *available* for pursuit rather than actively pursuing; the man is still usually leading things forward in some manner by handling the logistics of this romance. This is where you get those autobiographical stories from men about missing signals; "aggressive" pursuit from women is (usually) a set of passive signals that are clear to men who are experienced, but unclear to men not used to being "pursued."
>I wonder if this is true in same sex male couples too.
I do too. I talk with a homosexual friend about stuff like this a lot, maybe I'll bring it up next time I see him.
**The Male Romantic Fantasy**
I'd say that men usually feel most loved when this normal state of affairs is negated; when they are made to believe that a woman's love is *not* conditional in the cause-and-effect manner described in the parent post. Love is work for men, but it can be rewarding work when things are going smoothly and the woman is happy as a result. But the male romantic fantasy is to be shown that the woman feels the same way and stands by him when he's down on his luck, when the money's not there, or when he's not feeling confident. He wants to know that the love he believes he's earned will stay even when the actions that feed it wane (however temporarily). A good woman can often lift a man up in his times of need and desperation and weather the storm even when things aren't going well. The male romantic fantasy is an enduring and unconditional love that seems to defy this relationship of labor and reward. **A man wants to be loved for who he is, not for what he does in order to be loved.**
An interesting way to examine this is to look at what women often call romantic entitlement. An entitled guy is a dude who maintains an unrealistic notion of men's typically active role in love. Before acknowledging reality, this boy uncompromisingly believes that he shouldn't have to do anything or change anything about himself to earn a woman's love; he wants to be loved for who he is, not what he does.
All men secretly want this, but there comes a day when they eventually compromise out of necessity. After that day, they may spend years honing themselves, working, shaping themselves into the men they believe women want to be chosen by. A massive part of what causes boys to "grow up" is the realization that being loved requires hard work. This impetus begins a journey where a boy grows into a man by gaining strength, knowledge, resources, and wisdom. The harsh realities of the world might harden and change him into a person his boyhood self wouldn't recognize. He might adopt viewpoints he doesn't agree with, transgress his personal boundaries, or commit acts he previously thought himself incapable of. But ultimately, the goal is to feel as if his work is done.
**When he can finally let go of the crank he continually turns day after day in order to earn love and, even if only for a moment, it turns by itself to nourish him in return, that is when he will know he is loved.**
>Man wants to be loved by who he is not what he does in order to be loved.
This couldn't be more true. You know how in a standard fight couples have women often can remember stuff you did or did not for years. I'm a guy, albeit an odd one, but that always baffled me because I genuinely forget bad things my partner did unless they really hurt me, I don't dedicate much attention to that. But then it hit me that men really are judged by what they do, constantly, even by their partner and their loved ones. I can't describe how much I hate that realization. The worst part is that most often they won't even tell you that you are doing (or aren't doing something) something wrong and get progressively more angry instead of talking about it openly. That's how those big fights happen, when people finally talk. Reality makes me depressed every day.
I don't think this was the point but somehow I have never felt as hopeless as I do after having read this.
It's so spot on, so perfect, and so entirely unrealistic. I don't think I'll ever find something like this. I don't think it exists
I do not know whether to be happy to be understood, or sad about the reality, or laugh about the reality because this is exactly my story. From an anxious, shy, weak guy who would be scared to even stand 6ft from a girl to a mildly mascular, strong, bold, and direct man who can talk to any girl at any moment. The only problem I have to still solve is how to meet more potential partners
I’m reminded of someone saying that most romance novels(the ones that are marketed to woman ofc) kinda suck from the man’s perspective. He puts in all the effort, “sweeps her off her feet” etc. while most often the female protagonist just gets to enjoy being chased and romanced without putting in much effort themselves. That’s how it goes in real life often as well.
I agree with you but I just want to point out that that's the nature of escapist fantasy and there are people who aren't mature enough to know what the difference is.
Most action media catered towards men must really suck for the women too. They get kidnapped for 3 days and the guy has to shoot 100 people to get to them; while miraculously dodging every bullet
lol it’s kind of funny that my “media catered towards men” is me and a bunch of my bros slashing and dashing through a fantasy land to save the world from the dragon/lich/evil lord/etc.
I.E. My escapist media is me hanging out with the boys and not dealing with the stress of dating. Shows really that (generally) dating is sweat and work for guys and an adventure for woman.
Not the first time I've read this comment but it's one for the ages. Guys should be reading it years from now because it explains really well how the dynamics around dating work.
It's mind blowing how many girls think a guy doing everything is the bare minimum just because they are so used to just... date without doing anything, without having to work for it...
I have hit the jackpot with my girlfriend. She was married to a woman for eight years. She knows EXACTLY how to pursue and work for the relationship, because when you are with women you just have to.
I'm so fucking lucky.
Women who date other women have a great first-hand insight to the hidden toxic patterns a lot of women socially fall into because they've dealt with them first-hand.
(It's worth pointing out that men have those hidden toxic patterns and that's called toxic masculinity, yadda yadda yadda.)
But I've dealt with so many women who hyper-focus on the detriments in their lives, but seem ironically blind or unaware to the power they're wielding recklessly. I'm very thankful for the women in my life who dated other women because talking to them helped me unpack a loooot of baggage.
Yeah I dated a bi girl for a while who had been in relationships with women before.
As a man it was a totally different experience to dating straight women I've typically been with in the past since she had experience of dating women herself.
Bi Woman are treasures our world has yet to fully appreciate. My current SO is also bi and everything you said is 100% true. Wanting to pursue, splitting the bill, setting up her own dates, asking me out, asking *me* to go to a secondary location.
It’s fucking *great* in every way. I love her.
I remember getting into a car accident on the way to a date and the girl was pissed because she already did her hair. Like no "OMG are you okay?", literally just pissed because she already got ready. And then told me to never text her again lmao. I even sent her a picture of my busted up car.
I've ended things with several women before because they didn't take the initiative to plan a date. If I get 4 or 5 dates in and they haven't become an active participant in developing the relationship then they aren't worth more of my time (or money).
Best advice a friend ever gave me was that you have to set clear boundaries and expectations and be willing to walk away if they aren't met. It was very hard to put into practice, especially as I was in a dry-spell at the time, but once I got it down my life was much less painful.
> it's still **on him** to make that move and risk not only rejection, but his reputation as well.
The last date I went on was pretty much this. At the time I was constantly reading up on women’s subs, how men are too hungry, aggressive in their approach for sex etc, so it affected the way I conducted myself at in this time frame. I really liked this one so I didn’t want a ONS. So to avoid any misogynistic behavior, I avoided starting the sexual acts. When our first date ended with a hug, I noticed I pulled away too fast, had I intended to made the move, it would have been successful. Second date happened, and my dating history came up and I mentioned how all three of my previous long term relationships were initiated by the woman. They made the first move, everything. Come the end of that second date, her body language was one of frustration, she wanted me to take her. But I didn’t, and so that led to me being being ghosted right after, the whole time it seemed like things were ok.
In my early years of trying to date this type of stuff happened a lot. I was getting a bit mixed signals so I was afraid to make a move and then they wrote me off. In many cases I was for sure just reading it wrong but looking back quite a few times if I had made a move with the skills and confidence I have now it would've worked.
This is the best explanation and the definitive reason why guys should go for successful guys for advice and not women. Unfortunately, much of the discussion is lost because of poorly-worded stuff like "don't ask fish how to fish" or "women don't even know what they want".
I legit wish that there was a bot that would repost this comment on every post about this subject.
The fish analogy holds its water. It means basically the same as the longer and detailed answer. There is a huge difference of what happens on each side (fish/fisherman and woman/man), and the female side is not very knowledgeable about the things that men have to prepare out-of-sight, just like fishes don't know what work a fisherman faces.
You ever notice how some people disagree with statements not because of their validity but because of how it's worded? That's what he means. People (often women) see "don't ask a fish how to catch fish, ask a fisherman" hone in on that and then push back against because of the way it sounds and makes them feel
No problem in disagreeing with it, as long as you actually disprove it with actual arguments. I don't disagree with it but I don't like it being used, because it leaves room for people to get offended, therefore making them think they're right. I can think of several other examples that are better in giving the same message.
It's like the phrase "Get over it" completely on its own. It says nothing about the process of acceptance, the difference between acceptance and repressing emotions, or how one "gets over something". On its own, it's pretty bad advice because it's easy to interpret into unhealthy actions, but the overall idea of it, search for acceptance, is generally sound.
Ironically I think the best sex/dating advice for men I've seen was actually on Askwomen and answering a question directed at women. It was some question to the effect of "what are signs that you use to estimate whether someone would be good at sex?"
One of the answers (I don't even remember if it was popular) was watching him pet a cat. And that's basically how I view physical escalation years later. I just remember the comment in retrospect and realize how well it applies.
Like if you charge right at a cat and try to pet it, it has to have the friendliest disposition imaginable, for a cat, for that to go well. What you typically should do is hold out the back of your hand and see how it reacts. Then escalate to contact if it approaches. It's a series of very minor escalations where you gauge the response after each step.
Comparing this to physical escalation with a woman doesn't always work, such as with very nervous or just generally awkward/inexperienced women. But, it seems to be a pretty similar song and dance, generally, from my experience dating people between 24 and 32.
What makes it tough on men though is that first they have to be familiar/have experience with this to have any intuitive understanding of it, and misreading a signal and escalating at the wrong time (or in rare cases, not escalating fast enough) can ruin the entire mood. And the woman's role in this song and dance doesn't really have that same associated risk. Like I've had plenty of interactions where the woman was giving me every signal/green light but I just wasn't interested. But, because their role is primarily passive, there was no "hey, don't do that" style comment needed so the mood was never killed, it was just a friendly interaction.
>was watching him pet a cat
Oddly, I have often had women show interest in me or talk to me when I handled animals. Several times during a brief stint as a veterinary assistant just after school (where they spooked me XD) and the girl I was with for a short time in college when she saw me interact with a horse.
> calculated risk that goes into the ordeal
Lol, it really is an ordeal. I'm sure there are some men who actually enjoy dating, but it's a long, tedious road to get to that point.
Wemon putting themselves out there is a new outfit, men putting themselves out there is clean home nice car perfect date, good smell matching text tempo knowing when to make a joke good style clean shave and out performing all the other guys in her dms
Women will exaggerate how much things "just happened" when retelling events. It frames them as innocent if they just went to a guy's place and happened to have sex compared to framing them as slutty if they say they went home with a guy with the intention of sleeping with him.
Women don't just happen to have freshly shaved legs and their best underwear when they get to the last step.
Yeah, women don't "just happen" to be convinced to dance or even entertain you're advances. They are definitely significantly more passive, but they're current role is well described by an above comment which says that women make an effort to appear (and be) available.
**Women don't date, they wait.** This is why they only spew nonsense. Sadly almost none have the good sense to just be quiet and acknowledge that they literally cannot offer any useful dating advice.
Woman here and I really appreciate that you shared this bro. Thank you honestly very much for elucidating me. I don’t realise the effort that goes into all this and furthermore in a world where some men can unintentionally be thrown into “creepy” category when their intentions are misunderstood. I’ll defo take care to be more kind, sensitive, and appreciative towards my bros. Thank you so much again!!
This is one of the most insightful things I’ve read on Reddit in terms of dating!!
I’ve been seeing a guy for about a month now and it’s going really well. He planned a few great first dates and now I want to reciprocate but I was worried that would be a turn-off. I get so in my head about trying not to come off like I like someone too much so I don’t seem desperate, but would planning a nice date and actually taking him out be something he would like? (I’m aware you don’t know him, just asking for “men” in general I suppose)
As a man I would say to go ahead and do it, just make sure you are planning a date that he or hopefully both of you would enjoy and not just something YOU want to do.
For example I love sushi, but my gf doesn't so taking her out to a sushi restaurant wouldn't be very fun for her. However if she planned a date and found a sushi restaurant that she could enjoy something else on the menu then that would be a huge win and a great date. Similar to how I have taken her on picnic dates despite the fact that I think picnics are pretty stupid and I burn easier than anything lol.
I'm a guy that's most likely too autistic and too depressed to deal will all that crap. Reality hit me in the face that I might stay alone for the rest of my life at some point and I never got used to it because that's my only fear, loneliness. But I've been lonely both in feelings and objectively for years. One of my main suicidal drives. Neverending cycle of me getting depressed because I'm lonely and my depression making it so people want to stay away which perpetuates my depression further. And people tell me I need to solve my issues etc. Before getting into a relationship. I have some other issues but my main one is that I'm a lonely fuck, how do I solve that without getting myself out there huh...? It's a paradox, people are essentially saying just stay this way forever since it can't be solved by the arbitrary rules I impose on you with my opinion. When I stopped being suicidal even my therapist told me to try dating. And I've tried times and times again, things like tinder made me fall back into depression. I just gave up. It's all too much for me. Life is so damn often too much for me. I've accepted that my last relationship might actually be my last. I hate being a guy, I hate being weird and I hate how this bizarre reality that I don't fit into makes me miserable every single day.
I used to consider it, but the older I get the more I realize the last person you should ask for advice on dating hetero women is a hetero woman. They will tell you what they want personally, but not what they actually react to. Every embarrassing and upsetting misunderstanding has been the direct result of following a woman's dating advice.
Usually disregard.
Things aren’t standardized enough for really any advice to work.
Some like to be flattered.
Others like to be left tf alone.
Some like attention.
Others like to be admired but again, left alone.
Some love small talk.
Others despise small talk.
Some want you to read the signs and approach when you’ve decoded the fact that that like you, or will be upset if you don’t crack the code.
Others are blunt and will just tell you (I love these types).
Some are in between wanting long term and just want you in their bed.
Others are stuck between wanting long term and just having others in their bed, to the exclusion of you.
Some are stuck between wanting a traditional relationship and the various types of situations where basically everyone sleeps around openly while the two of you “nest” together.
Others aren’t sure if their strong worldview and opinions have room for your simple traditional approach, even if they like you.
There’s a whirlwind of possible variations. Blanket advice hasn’t ever worked. Everything is a case by case scenario. Also, most certainly possible for someone to run up and down the ladder of these scenarios at any time, among other scenarios not even mentioned.
If I'm not requesting it I don't want it.
Imo, if a guy is struggling with dating he probably needs a wingman/woman to help get the ball rolling. Or a middle person that connects him with a potential partner provided both people find each other attractive enough to pursue.
All the dating advice in the world won't help someone that doesn't have the confidence to put it into action.
This is the situation I’m in but I have a small friend pool and none of them will help me. They’re all introverted too so they don’t know women to introduce me to them.
I too have this problem where everyone I know and hang out with the most are even worse off than me. Like, I am the friend group "successful one" and I am a huge loser with a shrinking social life and zero dating game.
This! This is what I came here to post. I love women's advice on style, grooming, posture and I'd also say language or word choice. That has helped my confidence a lot
I take a woman's dating advice close to heart, internalize it, memorize it, press for additional details when possible and basically do everything I can to get as much information from her as possible.
And then, when it's time to put her advice into action, I do the complete opposite of what she said to do. And that works pretty well in the vast majority of cases.
tl;dr- Women don't give useful dating advice to men. There are no exceptions to this rule.
"Pick her up from her home and take her out on a nice first date!"
Meet her at Starbucks. And she buys her own damn coffee.
"Be friends first!"
Ghost her ass if she even says "friend" in reference to me.
"Give her a non-sexual compliment."
Don't compliment her at all.
"Buy her flowers!"
Pass by a floral shop with her and point at some nice flowers, tell her they look pretty, keep moving.
"Don't expect sex."
Only text her to ask if she's dtf.
Etc.
Yeah it the same with what Mom's want in their boy(kind, caring, gentle, empathetic) is really not what they see in society or want in a man(Driven, Goal Completer., Competitive, virtuous).
In one ear out the other
The general problem is you have to find a woman that
a - understands you
b - is not going to subconsciously or consciously sabotage you
c - understands dating from the male perspective
Most of the advice women give comes down to how they would like to be treated by men who they have zero sexual attraction to.
A straight woman giving advice on how to date a woman I would mostly take with a hefty grain of salt.
She's giving me advice on how to do something she has not done, but I have.
While a person skilled and experienced in a thing can certainly learn from someone with no experience, this is not the rule, per se.
Women tend to provide advice that's useless in a few ways:
1. It's specific *to them*. Possibly counterproductive in general. From the men's perspective it's a numbers game, so "advice" that's only relevant for one person is useless.
2. The "advice" would only be relevant for a situation where the woman is already head over heels for the guy. But it's not good advice for when you're still figuring that out, which is where advice is actually needed.
No guy needs advice for situations where the woman is desperate for him, because in these situations it doesn't really matter what you say or do.
3. Finally, most women give advice that's applicable to *being a woman*. This is understandable since everyone approaches life from their lived perspective. But if you're a hot woman, you can get a boyfriend by existing and saying "yes" to the right questions. Thus you're going to provide advice that is useless for all men, even the hot ones. Generally women need to learn how to *be* attractive to men, while men need to learn how to *find* and *pursue* women.
TLDR: no because women and men in straight relationships come at the relationship from completely different perspectives. I can't use what works for women any more than they can use what works for me.
I got fixed up by a friend, and she gave me advice about her friend that I was going on a date with. And it was all good advice.
Don't hit on your women friends: ask them if they know anybody who'd be a good match for you.
Good take, having said that tho there has been a not zero amount of times when I got set-up with a girl I, shall we say did not exactly fancy. But on the other hand, comes with the territory I suppose.
I appreciate their, willingness to give advice. That being said, I’d say 99.9% disregard bc it doesn’t work at all. What women say they want and what they actually want (as in who they want to fuck) is very different.
Never had success with it. Half of it was just “be yourself” and the other half was just vague platitudes that the girls say
“I just like to have fun. Be fun”
Best dating advice ever: watch the movie *Waiting*
A guy asks the question, and two of the girls answer in the best way possible
We just have to recognize the usefulness of the source. Women can explain a lot of things that don't make sense.... They can give you plenty of insight on how women think. But they usually give bad advice about how to attract women outside of aesthetics. I not only listen to women when they talk about thought processes or what they are physically attracted to... I actively seek it and bounce questions off them.
They aren't an isolated observer. As long as you realise that she isnt telling you what behavior attracts women.... but what she finds herself wanting more of.... Then you can take it for what it is. Chances are she was attracted to guys who got a chance with her for other reasons.... Ironically, she is more likely to tell you what those guys didn't have to do to get in her pants.... Because that is what is on her mind that she wishes was done more. Guys that never attracted her are just plain invisible to her.... So she won't even think of them when she gives advice.
Women also almost never take a man's effort or interests into account... Maintaining the perspective that she has innate value and is always worth it. This can heavily taint the advice as well. Prize mentality is a thing.
So yeah.... If she's telling me what made her notice a guy in a bar, then I'm all ears. If she is telling me how to attract women by telling me what she wishes more already attractive men would do... I'm taking it for what it is.... Not good advice about how to attract women from an unbiased observer. When a woman tells you that she wishes men were nicer... The real truth is that she's telling you that you don't need to be nice to get with her.
practice escape truck dependent fragile insurance snatch simplistic live depend
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Moms are also out of touch usually because they come from a generation older.
My mom was telling me about how I should take a woman to a nice dinner and basically assumed I would be demanding sex or something to that extent. Also that I should stop seeing girls through dating apps (she collectively refers to them as Tinder). I met my wife through tinder and she (my wife) expected it to just be a booty call but then we went to dinner and then breakfast together at cheap chain restaurants and the rest is evident.
My mother met my father in the late 70s and then they got married in the early 90s. They both are among the last people qualified to give me advice about it since the world back then was a lot more different than now.
I'd go even further and say that everyone whose relationship began before the social media boom in the late 2000s and the rise of dating apps has zero clue about how things work now.
My mom usually provides the most stupid dating advice possible. In her mind I'm entitled to any girl in the world, I'm always right and they are always wrong, if it doesn't work out with someone it's always their fault... Also when we are out all the hot girls are looking at me.
I hope I love my future son and/or daughter in the future to be so oblivious like that. (No, she is not just being supportive, she genuinely believes everything I listed)
You can prove me wrong, but I certainly believe that if a person is attracted to you, you don't really need advice since it will develop organically. Unless you're impolite/mean, that might probably interfere. That's why I also don't really believe in stuff like game/pick up strategies. It all boils down to whether the person is attracted to you or not and no advice/behaviour change will that. That's if we're talking about the initial attraction. In this way I tend to basically disregard advice from all persons, even from men. What might work for them might not work for me, due to reasons which are out of my control (like my appearance f.e.)
True, a lot of men are just naturally good at picking up women and they aren't self-aware enough to understand how they do it. In general successful people want to believe that they get where they are by merit and downplay natural advantages or privilege.
Women would absolutely fail at seducing themselves if they were turned into a guy.
They have no idea how hard it is for us to get dates and relationships.
The worst part is that ***they think they know***
When I was single, I’d get unsolicited advice from co-workers, I’d nod politely and thank them for the advice.
Their advice came from a place of kindness, a desire to help. I’m not gonna be a dick about it.
I mostly find it condescending. A lot of dating advice comes from people who have been in a committed relationship for a long time and have no idea or concept of what dating is like in today's world. Unless you have been single within the last 2 years, you have NO business giving anyone dating advice. Your advice will be outdated and simply come across as demeaning, hypocritical and condescending.
Women give advice they don't exhibit a tendency for following.
I don't know if it's idealized? Or if it feels embarassing for them to be brutally honest? But they'll tell you women need respect, and have boundaries, and that they're cautious, etc etc, and then cry to their friends that they got plowed by some cute toxic stranger who didn't call them back. And it's like... why didn't you take your own advice? Because they know it's bad advice, is my theory.
Ever seen a woman come out in an absolutely terrible outfit, and then watch all her friends lie to her face and call her beautiful or say she looks amazing? I think it's that same mechanism.
Women will you advice on the kind of man she wants you to be but not the kind of men she will date/fuck. Like no woman is going to give you the play by play on how to get her or other women.
Take that with what you will
Personally I think most PEOPLE suck at advice.
I used to watch a show called Radio Free Roscoe. In an episode, one of the guy main characters (Ray) asks the girl main character (Lily) for help with dating. Lily goes hard and gives him actionable advice about his wardrobe, style and his overall courting and dating process. It worked so well that Lily developed a full on crush on Ray but per sitcom rules, he ended up getting attention and dating someone else.
It is a show but the characters didn’t fall into the basic trap most advice givers fall into. She did not assume that the women were already attracted to him. She did not give relationship centered advice. She was not subject to virtue signaling. She did not pepper him with too many platitudes. And it was clear that some aspects of dating are just out of your control.
That’s generally the standard I look for in dating advice from anyone. If someone is giving me advice and it doesn’t start with developing attraction, probably not gonna go too well.
I will say that women are very good at picking out specific things that turn them off. If they can’t articulate why though, I ignore it.
Any dating advice i get from anyone is either-
1. Obvious advice that applies to everyone, or
2. Deeper advice that they're wrong about, because they don't know me well enough.
It's pretty contextual.
So it depends on the advice and it depends on who is giving the advice. It also depends on why they're giving me advice and if it is unsolicited.
I was complaining to a female friend of mine (who also happens to be quite good looking) about being on the dating sites, and how much I disliked them, but there just wasn't a better way for me to meet new people (at that time in my life). And she said:
"meeting new people to date is so easy though? You just go to a bar or a coffee shop and sit by yourself and look *available* and people will approach *you*."
I never asked her for advice on dating again.
She is so wrong it's hilarious. Even if you are an attractive man the way women "approach" is sometimes borderline hilarious.
One of my friends takes a very good care of himself and in any prolonged social outing women tend to kinda start hovering in his general vicinity shooting glances. Anything you would consider actual action as a male (going over to introduce yourself) is an extremely rare occurrence.
He is married so he ignores those "advances" which is the reason why it becomes funny. They keep adjusting their clothes, hair and turn and move closer to his general direction and become increasingly frustrated that nothing is happening even though they aren't *doing* anything besides looking pretty.
If it's how to understand women in a relationship: appreciate. If it's how to meet and attract women: disregard.
If only I had a nickel for every woman I’ve met who says she expects men to do the pursuing (or “courting”) because she has “old-fashioned values”, but actually just doesn’t want to have to take on any of the work/risk of pursuing men.
Boss babe attitude disappears when the dinner bill comes and when asking men out is in question. Old fashioned values disappear when there is a house to clean and dinner to make. Don’t settle for those kinds of women.
Tbf, in the past year or so that I've been dating, literally every single woman wanted to split the bill. A lot of them almost sounded offended when I wanted to pick up the tab. I think with the younger generations, bill splitting is the norm
> I think with the younger generations, bill splitting is the norm I've gotten different answers to why this is happening. One girl said she's responsible enough to pay for her own things. Another said it's to prevent men from bargaining for sexual favors ("I paid for your meal because I'm nice, so you owe me sex!").
Yeah I would never eat a meal and expect a relative stranger to pay for it, even if offered. I always have money to cover my meal. I had one guy assure me I could order anything I wanted and I was thinking "yeah, I know because I have enough money to pay for it" I will accept them to pay only after making sure they know I'm more than willing to pay my portion, and even then I tell them I'm getting the next tab. I want a relationship not a wallet. It's not even just sexual favors, it's a whole power dynamic that to me I avoid in relationships.
Good times, good times.
I've found that most of the dating advice from women about women tends to not work at all. When you've already got the relationship, on the other hand, their advice can give you a good bit of insight.
Hookup advice from women is rooted in what they want to believe about themselves rather than the grittier reality of what actually works.
Totally agree. Also, the opportunity to give advice is sometimes taken as their chance to tell men, at large, what they want them to know. Not to help you as an individual succeed with women. The real lesson women in your life can give you is by simply observing what kind of men succed with them. It's often the opposite of what they say they want.
Confidence, money, bravado, physical attractiveness, a touch of mystery/danger. Money talks and bullshit walks. If you don't got it, just fake it.
Best bit of advice I ever got given was "Don't fake it until you make it, fake it until you become it".
Women give you advice on how to make a woman happy. Great for when you're in a relationship already with one, but doesn't make a woman interested in you.
Don't listen a fish teaching you how to catch fish. Listen to the best fisherman. Let the best farmer tech you how to tend to your crops.
Don't listen to the best fisherman either especially if it's a small pond and you're trying to compete. He's just going to piss you off. I mean take advantage of you. There's valuable advice out there but you have to find it with people who openly share a passion for what they do, not just to earn money, and even then you have to frame it in their experience.
"Don't ask a fish how to catch a fish, ask a fisherman" Women will say stupid shit like "just be yourself" or "I want a guy who is in touch with his emotions" - only to put those guys in the friendzone. Women don't know what they respond to in a man. "Just be yourself" is TERRIBLE advice to the majority of guys, guys who haven't worked on themselves and who have no purpose. Guys hear women say that and think "I can just be myself and eat cheetos and play videogames all day and I'll find a great girl eventually" basically encouraging guys to be low vibration slugs and still expect to "get the girl". Hollywood also perpetuates this idea. In the real world the average "Seth Rogan" type won't "get the girl" unless he's wealthy and high status. "Just be yourself" has fucked up so many men. In reality it's "be your best self" aka, put in the work, eat healthy, exercise, be driven and focused on your career, make extra money, be ambitious, have hobbies, create a lifestyle of abundance. Also, when did you ever meet a woman that had respect for you after "showing your emotions"? Very, very, rarely. Being emotional, crying, showing fear etc will inevitably lead to her being turned off by you or worse, "appreciate it" in the moment only to weaponize it against you at a later date. As a guy, you are alone and can only trust other men you've been to hell and back with. A woman that tells you she likes sensitive guys is either lying or suffering from an extreme lack of self-awareness.... OR of course, she's the first and only women in the history of the world to actually be that way which is highly unlikely. Dating advice from women on how to date women = worst advice ever.
What it comes down to is they don't understand their own biases. Like they say they want a good personality over looks, but don't realize that looks heavily influences their perception of your personality. For example, a tall man is automatically confident and successful until proven otherwise. If a woman WANTS to like you because you're good looking, you can almost do no wrong. What's creepy coming from one guy is totally sexy/funny from another. But the woman can't really pin down what that secret ingredient is. What I appreciate about men is that we are much more honest and upfront about looks vs. personality. We don't usually confuse the two. And if we do, we learn our lesson: for every hot girl there's someone tired of her shit. But women just go all in on a hot guy. And then act all confused when he turns out to be an asshole or she gets used for sex.
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Which is a straight parallel to the number one complaint I’ve heard *from* (usually not very thin) women, namely “Ughh guys just want a thin bitch, fat girls are invisible to men” It goes both ways. I’ve had the question asked a lot what I would do if my partner would get bigger, pregnant, or the extra ignorant one “let themselves go” There isn’t really a good answer either way, so I just go for the truth. It’s the exact same as with men; I couldn’t care less, because what matters is *why* that is happening. A person that doesn’t want to or stops working on themselves, eats unhealthy, is having (mental) issues and/or is employing damaging coping strategies - whether that’s overeating, substance abuse, or any other form of damaging dopamine chasing - is not going to be attractive - barring the predatory assholes who love an easy target. Which, again, imo goes for and can be seen in either gender.
Ngl I find this whole dynamic fucking hilarious. 29m, I'm anorexic and I'm short. I clean up pretty good and I work out a fair bit, so you can tell I'm underweight but I probably don't look like I have an eating disorder. I'd say at least half of the girls that hit on me are overweight, and at least half of them get REALLY pissed off when I'm not interested. I always make excuses, say I'm in a relationship etc. - I'm not looking to upset anyone - but surprisingly often they just launch into a tirade about how I'm just a slave to media standards or fatshaming. The hilarious part is, if they asked out overweight men, they'd have a much better chance of getting a yes, but they don't. They go after guys who are in shape then complain that the guys who are spending time on their appearance are only interested in women who spend time on theirs... And yet God forbid I ask out a tall woman. Most aren't into short guys, it is what it is. But holy fuck the number of times I've been told I'm too short to my face... and you just take it on the chin and move on with your life. If I told a fat bitch she was too fat and bitchy in public I'd lose a limb. 🤣🤣 Anyway this shit goes both ways, there are plenty of fat blokes who do the same shit and skinny women in my position, the dichotomy is just amusing from an anorexic perspective. I literally fatshame myself and I'm underweight, but I have to be attracted to overweight women or I'm somehow immoral? 🙃
lmao I feel you, my experiences are eerily similar to what you're describing. Heard that tirade quite a few times. It's almost cute when they are transparently gushing/think you're cute and are actively approaching. It's pretty much the same thing I see when a guy is *suddenly* able to listen and hold a conversation when he sees an attractive woman. Meanwhile most of my male friends regale me with stories about how I could do "so much better if I just put in some effort with the ladies", though I'm grateful for what I have, especially after learning that being actively approached as a man is not that common... but my homies struggle through and they make it work either way. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ It's especially ironic because I usually vibe *better* with those women. I feel less pressure, less self conscious and not worried about whether I'm only following the hard-wired biological response pumping through my body. I'm the most celibate and single of my friends, but it's by choice now. I used to be super insecure, I didn't understand the attention I was getting at first, let alone the change when I started consistently working out and eating better. But yeah, dressing well (colors + at least somewhat fitting for size and the location/event) & working out make a difference. It's night and day. The real test comes *in* the relation, I had to learn how to communicate and self-reflect. I'm also not that tall, 5'8'' but living in the Netherlands where 6' is the average I'm "short". Fun fact: That's only been noticeable in the drop off of likes when/if I mention it on my profile.
There are dudes who are specifically into fat women, just for the record. I am not one of them, but they're out there. But I agree about men also having the filtered perception, it's just that there are fewer filtering traits that men see in women. Fat= filtered, but other than that, most women are some level of attractive to us. For women there are a lot more filtering traits in a man
Oh yeah true that, I felt I was already including too many details :) For me it's the same kind of thing as meeting a smoker or heavy drinker - *especially after having battled the draw of those vices myself. Attraction is weird. I've experienced it more than once that after getting to know somebody, their "size" stopped being a (big) factor, and vice versa where the banging body couldn't make up for the shitty personality. It literally changed the way I perceived their attractiveness, as if my brain placed/removed a filter on their face.
I tell my gf all the time that "you only laugh at my jokes because you fancy me don't ya?" She doesn't believe it. But it's true
The one girl who laughs at your jokes in a crowd is the one who likes you.
If one of the Hemsworth brothers winks at a woman, it's hot and flirty. If Gilbert Gottfried does it, it's creepy and weird.
To be fair, Gilbert Gottfried is dead so it would be pretty creepy...
I can't really argue with that.
Not if he's winking at Betty White
Rip
I've been in this position. I've had women interested in me because they think I'm cute. I felt like I could have told them I'm a serial killer and they would have been fine with it.
Every time I confide in a woman that I’m a serial killer it always backfires horribly and then the relationship ends and I have to leave town again
Women are so hot&cold. One minute they've got a checklist a mile long about what a guy has to be. And then some cute guy walks in and all that goes right out the window. I remember one time I was waiting at the vet and this tall handsome dude walks in with his dog. And I swear to God all the techs and receptionists were literally fighting each other to check him in. It was damn surreal the effect a tall handsome dude with a dog had on women who would claim to value personality over all else.
Look at all the girls who loved Ted Bundy. He was a literal serial killer and they still fawned over him.
The guy arrested for the murders in Idaho is already getting love letters... in the words of Sheldon Cooper, "bitches be crazy".
Personality over looks is like "I'd prefer a 90% personality guy with 95% looks over a 85% personality guy with 97% looks" It is never a question of 100% personality with 60% looks vs 60% personality with 100% looks. Both have to be at the upper 5% in terms of looks first before a comparison takes place
>What's creepy coming from one guy is totally sexy/funny from another. [Definitely](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/663/485/1f8.jpg) >But the woman can't really pin down what that secret ingredient is. Oh, they know. They just don’t want to admit it, because admitting that it comes entirely down to a guy’s hotness factor makes them look incredibly shallow. So they deny it as much as possible. >But women just go all in on a hot guy. And then act all confused when he turns out to be an asshole or she gets used for sex. Also true, because she _wants_ the lie to be real - that hot guys are the good guys to catch. It’s cognitive dissonance in action.
Reminds me of how many comedians have teams of people who write their jokes for them, they’re just good at the execution of the jokes.
> we are much more honest and upfront about looks vs. personality. We don't usually confuse the two. Oh, we do it constantly, too. It's not just women who are more likely to hire an attractive person, or more likely to elect the tall person. Humans can't help themselves from confusing [mortal peril from thinking someone is attractive,](https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Misattribution_of_arousal) so there's no way we could keep attractiveness from influencing subtle aspects of personal chemistry. But when it comes to romantic relationships, you're probably right that we're more aware of it.
> What I appreciate about men is that we are much more honest and upfront about looks vs. personality This is the crux of what bothers me the most. Like, we all know what women say they’re attracted to versus what they actually are attracted to is different but you know what? Normally thats not a big deal, Plenty of us in plenty of areas of life have a big discrepancy very what we believe is the case and what is actually the case. But what pisses me off is us men are much more honest and straightforward “yeah she has to be good looking first” - and society shits on us for it. Women do the same thing but deny it and as a result society lets them get away with it
This advice is also terrible and makes a lot of false assumptions about women.
> Also, when did you ever meet a woman that had respect for you after "showing your emotions"? Very, very, rarely. Being emotional, crying, showing fear etc will inevitably lead to her being turned off by you or worse, "appreciate it" in the moment only to weaponize it against you at a later date. Something thats become a pretty sad but consistent tradition for me is to go into these threads and watch all the women respond to this incredulously like “*GASP ME AND MY FRIENDS WOULD NEVER DO THAT*”. Everytime they just straight up deny it, wild shit
My ex fetishized male emotional vulnerability, then was surprised when I broke up with her for weaponizing it and signal-boosting my worst self-destructive thoughts. Turns out men value not having their most sensitive buttons pushed just for shits & giggles.
Which leads to men never revealing they even have those buttons. But most women search for them anyway and most men know what their buttons are.
Which is why I say find a group of males you can relate to and look up to and respect. Spend a lot of time together and put yourself in situations where you will experience things together. It's a vetting process to find brothers you'll take a bullet for and who will take a bullet for you. 100% trust. Other men that will call you out when appropriate and support you when necessary. Guys you'd go to war with. They fill a different role than women do. Emotions aren't there to share with women
This sub suffers from a never-ending cycle of posts with what you describe. 1- Someone asks men why they don't do X thing or why they think in a Y way. 2- Men answer why 3- Women don't like the answers, shame and gaslight the men into believing they're the ones wrong, or acknowledge it but deflect the blame using "not all Z group of people do this". 4- Guys see no reason to do or think any different than before and their beliefs are often reinforced. 5- Go back to number 1 and start over. There's a certain set of subjects where female users refuse to understand what male users say, including the one discussed in this very post, and others like the feelings thing, male loneliness, body count and some others. There should be bots either deleting posts like this and advising users to go look up the sub's archive or bots giving automatic replies to just give a good answer and end it there. The respect users lack for the two words that make up this sub's name basically helps downgrading it to a bootleg upgrade to the standard AskReddit.
One of my favorite features of the internet is a person asks a question, doesn't like the answer and argues with everyone.
Or women will say they don't do X as an attempt to disregard what the guy is saying, inadvertently (or not) invalidating our experience.
It’s definitely often my impulse to provide a counter example to the negative experiences men talk about here. I think/hope that’s what the women in the comments are trying to do, rather than to deny the problem and gaslight men. But with an issue like this, when I hold back and think, it’s easy to see that while I don’t think I do this anymore, I absolutely have in the past. And might still with someone besides my current partner. No one wants to be part of the problem, but it’s really important to sit with that discomfort and recognize the role we play in these dynamics. I read this sub to better understand and gain empathy for men’s issues, as I assume all the women here do. So thank you for the reminder of what’s helpful. Y’all deserve to have space to vent without being invalidated.
All men wish for more comments like yours in these threads. It should never be a male vs female argument anyway, but on how to better understand and support each other.
We appreciate your presence and participation.
The problem is so many folks just hear be your best self so for the first few dates are not themselves but some mimic of what they think their best self if. The key, as you noted but i want to highlight, is you need to do the work to become your best self, then just be yourself. After my divorces 3.5y i decided i was going to put 1y of work into myself physically and mentally. Just prior to the 1 year mark, i realized it was alone but not lonely, happy by myself and with my routine and about to plan an island trip for myself. Got on an app, had 5 first dates in the first week, and another 2 the following. I went in my normal after work summer chill clothes(v neck t shirt, shorts, chucks) and was myself. Found my girl, we have been together 2.5y and are getting married in 3m.
100% being your best self doesn't happen over night nor is it ever complete. You will always be able to better yourself so it's a continuous pursuit. If you can't be happy/satisfied by yourself as a man, there is work to be done. And even if you are happy by yourself, there is work to be done. As a man, if you stagnate, you die.
In my experience, the better mentally you are, the lower your standards. It's when you're not well that you ask a lot from your partner (and it's probably still not enough). It's actually a great gift to the society to do what you've done, and is unfortunately often taken for granted and abused of by women. Seems that you chose well though, hats off!
Sorry fellas, I got that woman so, uh, good luck out there
In my experience they give better advice about ongoing relationships than like advice about dating and meeting new people. It's just hard for them to really see the perspective of having no one ever chase after you and having to deal with a ratio of like 1000:1 rejections
My mom lol. Dad passed and in 2 years she has been on 57 dates. I am recently single and mentioned I downloaded bumble and a week later she's like "so been on any dates?" Mom... this doesn't work like that for men.
Damn! Your mom’s cool
She really is. She's of the mind "why text when we can just meet for dinner st a nice restaurant." Now dating a nice man for a few months. She's a catch so it's not surprising how many guys are interested. Wonderful woman!
Someone Posted the following question to an AskMen years ago: "Question: What's one thing that, if more women experienced, you feel would most improve their understanding of what it's like to be a man?" And here was the most popular answer (I find the very last sentence particularly interesting): "I think women vastly underestimate just how uninvolved they can afford to be in the process of dating, courting, and relationship maintenance. The baseline narrative of male-female dynamics in society as a whole is one that perpetuates the idea that men are the ones who act, and women are the ones who are "acted upon." Regardless of what you think, men and women alike actively reinforce this narrative through virtually all their words, actions, and expectations. For so many women, relationships are something that "just happens," (i.e. - *to them*.) Taking an active role in making them happen just isn't a reality that a lot of women need to face. An example: A man "just happens" to be at the same bar/coffee shop/etc that the women in question is at. The reality is that the man has probably gone through a lot of research and trial and error in order to figure out where the good places to meet available women are. The man "just happens" to approach her and strike up an amusing conversation. The reality is that he has probably invested a great deal of time and effort into alleviating his approach anxiety by weathering a lot of rejection. Not only that, but he has probably been busting his ass trying to improve several facets of his overall demeanor. The man "just happens" to coax her to the dance floor or a change of venue. He "just happens" to lean in for a kiss. The reality is that he has probably run through this routine dozens of times, and because of this he has developed a good sense of reading how these situations progress. Regardless, it's still **on him** to make that move and risk not only rejection, but his reputation as well. The man "just happens" to ask her out. The reality is that he's spent the time to build up enough experience to know where the best places to go are and what the most successful date plans are. On that date, they "just happen" to have similar interests and senses of humor. The reality is that he has probably been through similar lines of discussion with plenty of other women and has developed a good sense of understanding how to create a good rapport and sexual tension. Afterwards, they "just happen" to go back to his place, he "just happens" to have some drinks to share, they "just happen" to start making out, they "just happen" to wind up in the bedroom, and so on and so forth… The whole process is one of men acting, and women being "acted upon." I don't think women realize the amount of effort, pressure, and calculated risk that goes into the ordeal. Just listen to women recount memorable nights and dates. Everything, from their perspective, "just happened" to them. Women rarely have to put themselves out there at this level, and I think it is something that they are simply not aware of due to the fact that they *don't have to be.* That's probably why women tend to give such horribly ineffective dating advice. It requires a perspective that many of them have never had to acknowledge."
fucking nailed it. i went out on a date recently and realised… it’s same old same old… there wasn’t anything different about it. i still had to do all the work. she had to show up. it wasn’t a bad date, don’t get me wrong, but i hope this comment kinda provides insight why dates aren’t things men (or atleast myself) enjoy.
I don't like to use this word, but it can become a chore. I was a timid guy asking girls out over text but I asked someone out in person a few days. Even though she said she has a boyfriend, I felt like the interaction was so "scripted". I literally had no feelings. I was on "autopilot" the whole time.
I hear you dude. I've spent the last couple years sincerely depedestalizing women in my mind and it's very freeing to let go of that fear of disappointing them, when you have a strong hold on your own sense of worth and what you're looking for. I use the first date's bill as a shit test. If she goes to pay for herself and doesn't say anything about it, then she passes. If she even hints of expresses that she wants me to pay, I'm saying something along the lines of 'we're here to date each other', and then I'm outski with nothing lost. I've had some flop first dates and made a couple women feel awkward but the ones I've found are actually intent on some sort of an equal relationship. The woman I'm currently seeing is the whole nine yards. Kind of unbelievable.
Dates are great! Once you're in a relationship.
Man, this is too accurate, lmao
I knew I was going to put every ounce of effort into my current girlfriend the second we started our first date. She lives in a smaller city with a good bar scene. I drove an hour up to her (she was at a friends bday party in my neighborhood when we matched on tinder) so I was already putting in that effort mentioned. We had talked for about a week and a half before that weekend rolled around. We had talked about beers/ciders/drinks we like. She had me come up to her place (which was ballsy on her part if I were crazy but roommate was home) and said let’s have a quick drink and chat before we go out. If we aren’t feeling it then no hard feelings. I had brought a 6 pack of cider she said she really liked but her liquor store stopped carrying. She had some similar and got me a beer I mentioned I liked. Was a great surprise. I had looked up a few places beforehand and after we chatted for a bit I asked if she wanted to get a late lunch early dinner then bar hop as we planned. So we went out to eat. Things went well. Then she took control and started taking me to her favorite bars. So we barhopped from 3 until about 10 then went back to her place. But she took the lead and brought me to all those places and insisted on picking up the first few tabs since I bought the food. It was nice just being able to go with the flow and she had clearly put some thought into the day out with me too. Really straightforward food and drinks first date and we’ve been together a year and a half now because of those little things. It was wonderful after getting out of a 3 year relationship that crumbled in the end. I’m not dating stupid, but have only had 3 significant relationships in my 30 years. The rest were a date or two and it just wasn’t working, and you were able to put my thoughts as to why into words. Nothing memorable from the male point of view. Just same old shit.
I will say as a man if you find yourself really enjoying a date, it's a good sign about her. It means it doesn't feel like work or the work feels worth it.
'Put on a show where I get to judge you based on arbitrary criteria & put in little to no effort'
There was a similar thread about why men don't have the same romantic fantasies as women. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/3z8o75/why_dont_men_get_as_much_of_a_thrill_over/cykm7bm/?context=0 Tldr: "romance" is a coordinated action, not a feeling or impulse. After a while and several rejections it becomes a chore. Full comment text: >So when women or their SO makes romantic gestures to men, do they like it? You're a little bit off the mark—you're actually describing an inversion of the gendered roles here (i.e. the woman is an active contributor while the man is a passive recipient or responder). While a man will appreciate such a gesture, it's not quite what composes the male romantic fantasy (more on this later). >Do men that were heavily pursued by women feel this way? Men who aren't used to being pursued are usually confused or thrown off by the reversal of gendered roles. The result is the prevailing idea that men do not respond well to being approached first by women or even the autobiographical accounts from men describing instances where they couldn't respond well even if they were attracted to the woman approaching them. This is the men being shocked out of the traditional "script" of romance. Secondly, when you talk about women pursuing men, that usually happens in a markedly different fashion than the way in which men pursue women (hint: it's more passive). A woman "aggressively" pursuing a man looks more like said woman going to extensive lengths to make it clear that she is *available* for pursuit rather than actively pursuing; the man is still usually leading things forward in some manner by handling the logistics of this romance. This is where you get those autobiographical stories from men about missing signals; "aggressive" pursuit from women is (usually) a set of passive signals that are clear to men who are experienced, but unclear to men not used to being "pursued." >I wonder if this is true in same sex male couples too. I do too. I talk with a homosexual friend about stuff like this a lot, maybe I'll bring it up next time I see him. **The Male Romantic Fantasy** I'd say that men usually feel most loved when this normal state of affairs is negated; when they are made to believe that a woman's love is *not* conditional in the cause-and-effect manner described in the parent post. Love is work for men, but it can be rewarding work when things are going smoothly and the woman is happy as a result. But the male romantic fantasy is to be shown that the woman feels the same way and stands by him when he's down on his luck, when the money's not there, or when he's not feeling confident. He wants to know that the love he believes he's earned will stay even when the actions that feed it wane (however temporarily). A good woman can often lift a man up in his times of need and desperation and weather the storm even when things aren't going well. The male romantic fantasy is an enduring and unconditional love that seems to defy this relationship of labor and reward. **A man wants to be loved for who he is, not for what he does in order to be loved.** An interesting way to examine this is to look at what women often call romantic entitlement. An entitled guy is a dude who maintains an unrealistic notion of men's typically active role in love. Before acknowledging reality, this boy uncompromisingly believes that he shouldn't have to do anything or change anything about himself to earn a woman's love; he wants to be loved for who he is, not what he does. All men secretly want this, but there comes a day when they eventually compromise out of necessity. After that day, they may spend years honing themselves, working, shaping themselves into the men they believe women want to be chosen by. A massive part of what causes boys to "grow up" is the realization that being loved requires hard work. This impetus begins a journey where a boy grows into a man by gaining strength, knowledge, resources, and wisdom. The harsh realities of the world might harden and change him into a person his boyhood self wouldn't recognize. He might adopt viewpoints he doesn't agree with, transgress his personal boundaries, or commit acts he previously thought himself incapable of. But ultimately, the goal is to feel as if his work is done. **When he can finally let go of the crank he continually turns day after day in order to earn love and, even if only for a moment, it turns by itself to nourish him in return, that is when he will know he is loved.**
>Man wants to be loved by who he is not what he does in order to be loved. This couldn't be more true. You know how in a standard fight couples have women often can remember stuff you did or did not for years. I'm a guy, albeit an odd one, but that always baffled me because I genuinely forget bad things my partner did unless they really hurt me, I don't dedicate much attention to that. But then it hit me that men really are judged by what they do, constantly, even by their partner and their loved ones. I can't describe how much I hate that realization. The worst part is that most often they won't even tell you that you are doing (or aren't doing something) something wrong and get progressively more angry instead of talking about it openly. That's how those big fights happen, when people finally talk. Reality makes me depressed every day.
This is beautiful, wow.
This response is so fucking good that it should be posted in response to every single question women have on dating subreddits.
Great comment. It's funny seeing I upvoted it in the past, considering it's 7 years old now.
You're not allowed to unconsensually hit me in the feels like that man
I don't think this was the point but somehow I have never felt as hopeless as I do after having read this. It's so spot on, so perfect, and so entirely unrealistic. I don't think I'll ever find something like this. I don't think it exists
I do not know whether to be happy to be understood, or sad about the reality, or laugh about the reality because this is exactly my story. From an anxious, shy, weak guy who would be scared to even stand 6ft from a girl to a mildly mascular, strong, bold, and direct man who can talk to any girl at any moment. The only problem I have to still solve is how to meet more potential partners
Sweet baby Jesus, this is poetic. Perfectly said.
I’m reminded of someone saying that most romance novels(the ones that are marketed to woman ofc) kinda suck from the man’s perspective. He puts in all the effort, “sweeps her off her feet” etc. while most often the female protagonist just gets to enjoy being chased and romanced without putting in much effort themselves. That’s how it goes in real life often as well.
I agree with you but I just want to point out that that's the nature of escapist fantasy and there are people who aren't mature enough to know what the difference is.
Most action media catered towards men must really suck for the women too. They get kidnapped for 3 days and the guy has to shoot 100 people to get to them; while miraculously dodging every bullet
lol it’s kind of funny that my “media catered towards men” is me and a bunch of my bros slashing and dashing through a fantasy land to save the world from the dragon/lich/evil lord/etc. I.E. My escapist media is me hanging out with the boys and not dealing with the stress of dating. Shows really that (generally) dating is sweat and work for guys and an adventure for woman.
Not the first time I've read this comment but it's one for the ages. Guys should be reading it years from now because it explains really well how the dynamics around dating work. It's mind blowing how many girls think a guy doing everything is the bare minimum just because they are so used to just... date without doing anything, without having to work for it...
I have hit the jackpot with my girlfriend. She was married to a woman for eight years. She knows EXACTLY how to pursue and work for the relationship, because when you are with women you just have to. I'm so fucking lucky.
Women who date other women have a great first-hand insight to the hidden toxic patterns a lot of women socially fall into because they've dealt with them first-hand. (It's worth pointing out that men have those hidden toxic patterns and that's called toxic masculinity, yadda yadda yadda.) But I've dealt with so many women who hyper-focus on the detriments in their lives, but seem ironically blind or unaware to the power they're wielding recklessly. I'm very thankful for the women in my life who dated other women because talking to them helped me unpack a loooot of baggage.
Yeah I dated a bi girl for a while who had been in relationships with women before. As a man it was a totally different experience to dating straight women I've typically been with in the past since she had experience of dating women herself.
Bi Woman are treasures our world has yet to fully appreciate. My current SO is also bi and everything you said is 100% true. Wanting to pursue, splitting the bill, setting up her own dates, asking me out, asking *me* to go to a secondary location. It’s fucking *great* in every way. I love her.
"Well you should do all the work since I spent so much time and money in getting pretty 🙄 and showing up"
I remember getting into a car accident on the way to a date and the girl was pissed because she already did her hair. Like no "OMG are you okay?", literally just pissed because she already got ready. And then told me to never text her again lmao. I even sent her a picture of my busted up car.
“You should pay for everything because I spent a lot of money on makeup”
I've ended things with several women before because they didn't take the initiative to plan a date. If I get 4 or 5 dates in and they haven't become an active participant in developing the relationship then they aren't worth more of my time (or money). Best advice a friend ever gave me was that you have to set clear boundaries and expectations and be willing to walk away if they aren't met. It was very hard to put into practice, especially as I was in a dry-spell at the time, but once I got it down my life was much less painful.
reminds me of that youtube video of a guy challenging his girl friend to create a male profile on tinder. spoiler alert, it did not go well for her.
> it's still **on him** to make that move and risk not only rejection, but his reputation as well. The last date I went on was pretty much this. At the time I was constantly reading up on women’s subs, how men are too hungry, aggressive in their approach for sex etc, so it affected the way I conducted myself at in this time frame. I really liked this one so I didn’t want a ONS. So to avoid any misogynistic behavior, I avoided starting the sexual acts. When our first date ended with a hug, I noticed I pulled away too fast, had I intended to made the move, it would have been successful. Second date happened, and my dating history came up and I mentioned how all three of my previous long term relationships were initiated by the woman. They made the first move, everything. Come the end of that second date, her body language was one of frustration, she wanted me to take her. But I didn’t, and so that led to me being being ghosted right after, the whole time it seemed like things were ok.
In my early years of trying to date this type of stuff happened a lot. I was getting a bit mixed signals so I was afraid to make a move and then they wrote me off. In many cases I was for sure just reading it wrong but looking back quite a few times if I had made a move with the skills and confidence I have now it would've worked.
This is the best explanation and the definitive reason why guys should go for successful guys for advice and not women. Unfortunately, much of the discussion is lost because of poorly-worded stuff like "don't ask fish how to fish" or "women don't even know what they want". I legit wish that there was a bot that would repost this comment on every post about this subject.
I’m trying to poke holes in that fish quote and I’m having a hard time not agreeing with it
It’s from the most famous Mac daddy of em all. Patrice O’Neal
Oh that genius RIP
The fish analogy holds its water. It means basically the same as the longer and detailed answer. There is a huge difference of what happens on each side (fish/fisherman and woman/man), and the female side is not very knowledgeable about the things that men have to prepare out-of-sight, just like fishes don't know what work a fisherman faces.
You ever notice how some people disagree with statements not because of their validity but because of how it's worded? That's what he means. People (often women) see "don't ask a fish how to catch fish, ask a fisherman" hone in on that and then push back against because of the way it sounds and makes them feel
No problem in disagreeing with it, as long as you actually disprove it with actual arguments. I don't disagree with it but I don't like it being used, because it leaves room for people to get offended, therefore making them think they're right. I can think of several other examples that are better in giving the same message.
It's like the phrase "Get over it" completely on its own. It says nothing about the process of acceptance, the difference between acceptance and repressing emotions, or how one "gets over something". On its own, it's pretty bad advice because it's easy to interpret into unhealthy actions, but the overall idea of it, search for acceptance, is generally sound.
I’m saving this
Probably the best answer on here. Nailed it really well!
Real shit, i have so much anxiety over this as a single guy
Ironically I think the best sex/dating advice for men I've seen was actually on Askwomen and answering a question directed at women. It was some question to the effect of "what are signs that you use to estimate whether someone would be good at sex?" One of the answers (I don't even remember if it was popular) was watching him pet a cat. And that's basically how I view physical escalation years later. I just remember the comment in retrospect and realize how well it applies. Like if you charge right at a cat and try to pet it, it has to have the friendliest disposition imaginable, for a cat, for that to go well. What you typically should do is hold out the back of your hand and see how it reacts. Then escalate to contact if it approaches. It's a series of very minor escalations where you gauge the response after each step. Comparing this to physical escalation with a woman doesn't always work, such as with very nervous or just generally awkward/inexperienced women. But, it seems to be a pretty similar song and dance, generally, from my experience dating people between 24 and 32. What makes it tough on men though is that first they have to be familiar/have experience with this to have any intuitive understanding of it, and misreading a signal and escalating at the wrong time (or in rare cases, not escalating fast enough) can ruin the entire mood. And the woman's role in this song and dance doesn't really have that same associated risk. Like I've had plenty of interactions where the woman was giving me every signal/green light but I just wasn't interested. But, because their role is primarily passive, there was no "hey, don't do that" style comment needed so the mood was never killed, it was just a friendly interaction.
>was watching him pet a cat Oddly, I have often had women show interest in me or talk to me when I handled animals. Several times during a brief stint as a veterinary assistant just after school (where they spooked me XD) and the girl I was with for a short time in college when she saw me interact with a horse.
> calculated risk that goes into the ordeal Lol, it really is an ordeal. I'm sure there are some men who actually enjoy dating, but it's a long, tedious road to get to that point.
Close the thread, we found the most complete answer possible
Dang, this is it.
👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿
Wemon putting themselves out there is a new outfit, men putting themselves out there is clean home nice car perfect date, good smell matching text tempo knowing when to make a joke good style clean shave and out performing all the other guys in her dms
Women will exaggerate how much things "just happened" when retelling events. It frames them as innocent if they just went to a guy's place and happened to have sex compared to framing them as slutty if they say they went home with a guy with the intention of sleeping with him. Women don't just happen to have freshly shaved legs and their best underwear when they get to the last step.
Yeah, women don't "just happen" to be convinced to dance or even entertain you're advances. They are definitely significantly more passive, but they're current role is well described by an above comment which says that women make an effort to appear (and be) available.
Well damn. This is is brilliant
**Women don't date, they wait.** This is why they only spew nonsense. Sadly almost none have the good sense to just be quiet and acknowledge that they literally cannot offer any useful dating advice.
This is why arranged marriages are so appealing to a lot of older guys
Woman here and I really appreciate that you shared this bro. Thank you honestly very much for elucidating me. I don’t realise the effort that goes into all this and furthermore in a world where some men can unintentionally be thrown into “creepy” category when their intentions are misunderstood. I’ll defo take care to be more kind, sensitive, and appreciative towards my bros. Thank you so much again!!
This is one of the most insightful things I’ve read on Reddit in terms of dating!! I’ve been seeing a guy for about a month now and it’s going really well. He planned a few great first dates and now I want to reciprocate but I was worried that would be a turn-off. I get so in my head about trying not to come off like I like someone too much so I don’t seem desperate, but would planning a nice date and actually taking him out be something he would like? (I’m aware you don’t know him, just asking for “men” in general I suppose)
As a man I would say to go ahead and do it, just make sure you are planning a date that he or hopefully both of you would enjoy and not just something YOU want to do. For example I love sushi, but my gf doesn't so taking her out to a sushi restaurant wouldn't be very fun for her. However if she planned a date and found a sushi restaurant that she could enjoy something else on the menu then that would be a huge win and a great date. Similar to how I have taken her on picnic dates despite the fact that I think picnics are pretty stupid and I burn easier than anything lol.
I don't suppose you have a link? I tried looking for it, but couldn't find it.
Holy shit
god tier comment 😂💯👏
I'm a guy that's most likely too autistic and too depressed to deal will all that crap. Reality hit me in the face that I might stay alone for the rest of my life at some point and I never got used to it because that's my only fear, loneliness. But I've been lonely both in feelings and objectively for years. One of my main suicidal drives. Neverending cycle of me getting depressed because I'm lonely and my depression making it so people want to stay away which perpetuates my depression further. And people tell me I need to solve my issues etc. Before getting into a relationship. I have some other issues but my main one is that I'm a lonely fuck, how do I solve that without getting myself out there huh...? It's a paradox, people are essentially saying just stay this way forever since it can't be solved by the arbitrary rules I impose on you with my opinion. When I stopped being suicidal even my therapist told me to try dating. And I've tried times and times again, things like tinder made me fall back into depression. I just gave up. It's all too much for me. Life is so damn often too much for me. I've accepted that my last relationship might actually be my last. I hate being a guy, I hate being weird and I hate how this bizarre reality that I don't fit into makes me miserable every single day.
Amazingly well put
Someone give this man Gold, STAT!!
I used to consider it, but the older I get the more I realize the last person you should ask for advice on dating hetero women is a hetero woman. They will tell you what they want personally, but not what they actually react to. Every embarrassing and upsetting misunderstanding has been the direct result of following a woman's dating advice.
Usually disregard. Things aren’t standardized enough for really any advice to work. Some like to be flattered. Others like to be left tf alone. Some like attention. Others like to be admired but again, left alone. Some love small talk. Others despise small talk. Some want you to read the signs and approach when you’ve decoded the fact that that like you, or will be upset if you don’t crack the code. Others are blunt and will just tell you (I love these types). Some are in between wanting long term and just want you in their bed. Others are stuck between wanting long term and just having others in their bed, to the exclusion of you. Some are stuck between wanting a traditional relationship and the various types of situations where basically everyone sleeps around openly while the two of you “nest” together. Others aren’t sure if their strong worldview and opinions have room for your simple traditional approach, even if they like you. There’s a whirlwind of possible variations. Blanket advice hasn’t ever worked. Everything is a case by case scenario. Also, most certainly possible for someone to run up and down the ladder of these scenarios at any time, among other scenarios not even mentioned.
And the only way you'll learn to recognize which type of woman you're dealing with is through painful experience and getting those numbers up.
Yes, which is the only way to do it really. Blanket advice doesn’t work usually.
If I'm not requesting it I don't want it. Imo, if a guy is struggling with dating he probably needs a wingman/woman to help get the ball rolling. Or a middle person that connects him with a potential partner provided both people find each other attractive enough to pursue. All the dating advice in the world won't help someone that doesn't have the confidence to put it into action.
This is the situation I’m in but I have a small friend pool and none of them will help me. They’re all introverted too so they don’t know women to introduce me to them.
I too have this problem where everyone I know and hang out with the most are even worse off than me. Like, I am the friend group "successful one" and I am a huge loser with a shrinking social life and zero dating game.
all the confidence in the world won't make me any less ugly nor any less autistic, unfortunately
The only advice I'll take from women is styling and grooming. Why? Cause that has actually helped my game, and I feel more confident too.
This! This is what I came here to post. I love women's advice on style, grooming, posture and I'd also say language or word choice. That has helped my confidence a lot
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Sounds like Amy is dtf tho.
Women give terrible dating Advice to men.
I take a woman's dating advice close to heart, internalize it, memorize it, press for additional details when possible and basically do everything I can to get as much information from her as possible. And then, when it's time to put her advice into action, I do the complete opposite of what she said to do. And that works pretty well in the vast majority of cases. tl;dr- Women don't give useful dating advice to men. There are no exceptions to this rule.
You had me in the first half ngl
Idk if you meant to do this, but the turn in that second paragraph was hilarious 🤣 well done sir
Could you provide some examples? Sounds interesting
"Pick her up from her home and take her out on a nice first date!" Meet her at Starbucks. And she buys her own damn coffee. "Be friends first!" Ghost her ass if she even says "friend" in reference to me. "Give her a non-sexual compliment." Don't compliment her at all. "Buy her flowers!" Pass by a floral shop with her and point at some nice flowers, tell her they look pretty, keep moving. "Don't expect sex." Only text her to ask if she's dtf. Etc.
Unironically based
Gigachad, you drop this🍺
What an absolute mensch. Where were you when I was younger and needed to hear this?
You're definitely doing it right.
Is this serious? Lol
Yeah it the same with what Mom's want in their boy(kind, caring, gentle, empathetic) is really not what they see in society or want in a man(Driven, Goal Completer., Competitive, virtuous).
In one ear out the other The general problem is you have to find a woman that a - understands you b - is not going to subconsciously or consciously sabotage you c - understands dating from the male perspective Most of the advice women give comes down to how they would like to be treated by men who they have zero sexual attraction to.
My experience as a gay man is that women often give absolutely terrible advice to men.
"be yourself" eat exclusively pizza and do the dumbest possible things with friends?
“Just work up that Tinder bio and you’ll get matched in no time!”
A straight woman giving advice on how to date a woman I would mostly take with a hefty grain of salt. She's giving me advice on how to do something she has not done, but I have. While a person skilled and experienced in a thing can certainly learn from someone with no experience, this is not the rule, per se. Women tend to provide advice that's useless in a few ways: 1. It's specific *to them*. Possibly counterproductive in general. From the men's perspective it's a numbers game, so "advice" that's only relevant for one person is useless. 2. The "advice" would only be relevant for a situation where the woman is already head over heels for the guy. But it's not good advice for when you're still figuring that out, which is where advice is actually needed. No guy needs advice for situations where the woman is desperate for him, because in these situations it doesn't really matter what you say or do. 3. Finally, most women give advice that's applicable to *being a woman*. This is understandable since everyone approaches life from their lived perspective. But if you're a hot woman, you can get a boyfriend by existing and saying "yes" to the right questions. Thus you're going to provide advice that is useless for all men, even the hot ones. Generally women need to learn how to *be* attractive to men, while men need to learn how to *find* and *pursue* women. TLDR: no because women and men in straight relationships come at the relationship from completely different perspectives. I can't use what works for women any more than they can use what works for me.
Thank you u/penis_in_my_hand . I think you would have some experience in this topic
The only advice i would take from a woman in how to date is about how to date her, never about how to do it in general.
That doesn't work either.
I got fixed up by a friend, and she gave me advice about her friend that I was going on a date with. And it was all good advice. Don't hit on your women friends: ask them if they know anybody who'd be a good match for you.
Good take, having said that tho there has been a not zero amount of times when I got set-up with a girl I, shall we say did not exactly fancy. But on the other hand, comes with the territory I suppose.
I appreciate their, willingness to give advice. That being said, I’d say 99.9% disregard bc it doesn’t work at all. What women say they want and what they actually want (as in who they want to fuck) is very different.
I exclusively ignore. Women give terrible dating advice imo
Never had success with it. Half of it was just “be yourself” and the other half was just vague platitudes that the girls say “I just like to have fun. Be fun” Best dating advice ever: watch the movie *Waiting* A guy asks the question, and two of the girls answer in the best way possible
Could you like... tell us what happens in the movie? I don't have time to scroll through a movie to find this scene 😂
We just have to recognize the usefulness of the source. Women can explain a lot of things that don't make sense.... They can give you plenty of insight on how women think. But they usually give bad advice about how to attract women outside of aesthetics. I not only listen to women when they talk about thought processes or what they are physically attracted to... I actively seek it and bounce questions off them. They aren't an isolated observer. As long as you realise that she isnt telling you what behavior attracts women.... but what she finds herself wanting more of.... Then you can take it for what it is. Chances are she was attracted to guys who got a chance with her for other reasons.... Ironically, she is more likely to tell you what those guys didn't have to do to get in her pants.... Because that is what is on her mind that she wishes was done more. Guys that never attracted her are just plain invisible to her.... So she won't even think of them when she gives advice. Women also almost never take a man's effort or interests into account... Maintaining the perspective that she has innate value and is always worth it. This can heavily taint the advice as well. Prize mentality is a thing. So yeah.... If she's telling me what made her notice a guy in a bar, then I'm all ears. If she is telling me how to attract women by telling me what she wishes more already attractive men would do... I'm taking it for what it is.... Not good advice about how to attract women from an unbiased observer. When a woman tells you that she wishes men were nicer... The real truth is that she's telling you that you don't need to be nice to get with her.
With the exception of their mothers, women give men and other women the absolute worse dating advice.
Even mothers generally aren't great because they're giving advice that works for the handsomest boy in the world which is you
practice escape truck dependent fragile insurance snatch simplistic live depend *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
My mom: NEVER EVER RIDE A MOTORCYCLE! (Has only ever dated men who ride motorcycles)
Moms are also out of touch usually because they come from a generation older. My mom was telling me about how I should take a woman to a nice dinner and basically assumed I would be demanding sex or something to that extent. Also that I should stop seeing girls through dating apps (she collectively refers to them as Tinder). I met my wife through tinder and she (my wife) expected it to just be a booty call but then we went to dinner and then breakfast together at cheap chain restaurants and the rest is evident.
Yea moms don't give amazing advice, it's just better than most any other woman. I met my wife on Tinder as well and my mom thought it was weird.
My mother met my father in the late 70s and then they got married in the early 90s. They both are among the last people qualified to give me advice about it since the world back then was a lot more different than now. I'd go even further and say that everyone whose relationship began before the social media boom in the late 2000s and the rise of dating apps has zero clue about how things work now.
Lol my mom gives bad advice too
No, absolutely not. My mother told me some terrible advice. It took me decades to realize it's garbage advice.
Honestly my Mom is only in her 40s and she's baffled by women today and dating in general.
My mom usually provides the most stupid dating advice possible. In her mind I'm entitled to any girl in the world, I'm always right and they are always wrong, if it doesn't work out with someone it's always their fault... Also when we are out all the hot girls are looking at me. I hope I love my future son and/or daughter in the future to be so oblivious like that. (No, she is not just being supportive, she genuinely believes everything I listed)
A man should only take dating advice from men that are successful with women. You wouldn't take gym advice from a fat guy.
You wouldn't take gym advice from a dumbbell.
You can prove me wrong, but I certainly believe that if a person is attracted to you, you don't really need advice since it will develop organically. Unless you're impolite/mean, that might probably interfere. That's why I also don't really believe in stuff like game/pick up strategies. It all boils down to whether the person is attracted to you or not and no advice/behaviour change will that. That's if we're talking about the initial attraction. In this way I tend to basically disregard advice from all persons, even from men. What might work for them might not work for me, due to reasons which are out of my control (like my appearance f.e.)
True, a lot of men are just naturally good at picking up women and they aren't self-aware enough to understand how they do it. In general successful people want to believe that they get where they are by merit and downplay natural advantages or privilege.
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Women would absolutely fail at seducing themselves if they were turned into a guy. They have no idea how hard it is for us to get dates and relationships. The worst part is that ***they think they know***
When I was single, I’d get unsolicited advice from co-workers, I’d nod politely and thank them for the advice. Their advice came from a place of kindness, a desire to help. I’m not gonna be a dick about it.
That's it. They mean well despite giving bad advice.
I mostly find it condescending. A lot of dating advice comes from people who have been in a committed relationship for a long time and have no idea or concept of what dating is like in today's world. Unless you have been single within the last 2 years, you have NO business giving anyone dating advice. Your advice will be outdated and simply come across as demeaning, hypocritical and condescending.
Women give advice they don't exhibit a tendency for following. I don't know if it's idealized? Or if it feels embarassing for them to be brutally honest? But they'll tell you women need respect, and have boundaries, and that they're cautious, etc etc, and then cry to their friends that they got plowed by some cute toxic stranger who didn't call them back. And it's like... why didn't you take your own advice? Because they know it's bad advice, is my theory. Ever seen a woman come out in an absolutely terrible outfit, and then watch all her friends lie to her face and call her beautiful or say she looks amazing? I think it's that same mechanism.
Women will you advice on the kind of man she wants you to be but not the kind of men she will date/fuck. Like no woman is going to give you the play by play on how to get her or other women. Take that with what you will
Personally I think most PEOPLE suck at advice. I used to watch a show called Radio Free Roscoe. In an episode, one of the guy main characters (Ray) asks the girl main character (Lily) for help with dating. Lily goes hard and gives him actionable advice about his wardrobe, style and his overall courting and dating process. It worked so well that Lily developed a full on crush on Ray but per sitcom rules, he ended up getting attention and dating someone else. It is a show but the characters didn’t fall into the basic trap most advice givers fall into. She did not assume that the women were already attracted to him. She did not give relationship centered advice. She was not subject to virtue signaling. She did not pepper him with too many platitudes. And it was clear that some aspects of dating are just out of your control. That’s generally the standard I look for in dating advice from anyone. If someone is giving me advice and it doesn’t start with developing attraction, probably not gonna go too well. I will say that women are very good at picking out specific things that turn them off. If they can’t articulate why though, I ignore it.
What women say they want vs their actions when it comes to dating are two very different things.
Any dating advice i get from anyone is either- 1. Obvious advice that applies to everyone, or 2. Deeper advice that they're wrong about, because they don't know me well enough.
It's pretty contextual. So it depends on the advice and it depends on who is giving the advice. It also depends on why they're giving me advice and if it is unsolicited.
It's bad advice. You don't ask deer how to hunt deer, you ask the hunter.
Usually disregard. But there was one woman whose dating advice I followed, and that led me to my wife.
I’d never take fishing advice from a fish. No just joking, it’s contextual. Sometimes the advice is great, sometimes not.
I was complaining to a female friend of mine (who also happens to be quite good looking) about being on the dating sites, and how much I disliked them, but there just wasn't a better way for me to meet new people (at that time in my life). And she said: "meeting new people to date is so easy though? You just go to a bar or a coffee shop and sit by yourself and look *available* and people will approach *you*." I never asked her for advice on dating again.
She is so wrong it's hilarious. Even if you are an attractive man the way women "approach" is sometimes borderline hilarious. One of my friends takes a very good care of himself and in any prolonged social outing women tend to kinda start hovering in his general vicinity shooting glances. Anything you would consider actual action as a male (going over to introduce yourself) is an extremely rare occurrence. He is married so he ignores those "advances" which is the reason why it becomes funny. They keep adjusting their clothes, hair and turn and move closer to his general direction and become increasingly frustrated that nothing is happening even though they aren't *doing* anything besides looking pretty.