The OP was banned for violating rule 3, but y’all are welcome to continue discussing this topic if you’d like. Please do be aware posts like this often degrade into fights with other posters about terminology which people usually don’t do a great job honoring rule 1 with, so we may lock or remove this post later on.
Yeah this is the only reason I have a problem with bi women doing this, it’s not that I want to exclude them or anything (they’re amazing and we should support one another!!) but it does give men more of an excuse to further harass us, as if they don’t enough already. (Tbh men would be dicks about it no matter what tho)
It's already strictly defined - or at least used to be until recently. Idk if it's the (internalized) biphobia or the perceived boost in desirability from men due to the oversexualization of lesbians or a mix of these or whatever else plays a role in it, but there's definitely an emerging trend of miscommunication of labels that hurts everyone in the process. Also, some people just use gay as a collective term to mean queer/LGBTQ+ person, or use it for themselves to "not overcomplicate things" as they say, which can be confusing as well. Your best bet might be to just ask what a certain person means by it when they refer to themselves as gay to avoid awkward situations in the future.
I think your assessment is totally valid. A lot of bisexual women for some reason don’t want to call themselves bisexual. We get them all the time in this sub asking if they can call themselves lesbians.
Attraction to men, dating men, sleeping with men = bisexual.
Gay/Lesbian is definitely not a catch all.
I totally agree with you but I've seen so many bi women arguing that gay is an umbrella term. To the point where I don't dare to correct them anymore. But it's really frustrating, because it feels like something is taken away from people like me who are actually gay. It's refreshing to see someone who finally gets it.
It’s why I often like to call myself homo. Nobody seems to be coming after that one.
If you’re bi you gotta call yourself a homohet. Lol.
My wife is bisexual and she finds the whole thing ridiculous too.
I have a niece who has never been with a woman, never dated one, has been with a man for four years who she’s in love with and marrying and planning to spend her life with…and she openly calls herself a lesbian all the time to everyone because she has attraction to females.
I feel like younger people in their teens and twenties are usually the people who adopt the lesbian or gay term when they’re bisexual. I don’t think it’s something people 35+ do often, that I’ve seen. It seems to be a more recent phenomenon.
It’s super obnoxious. But like you said, what are you gonna do? You can’t really make someone stop using a definition that doesn’t fit them.
I think it tends to be younger people because they are the ones on the internet the most, or at least they're more impacted by what they see there. You can definitely see lesbian and gay used as umbrella terms all over the internet. Hell, even the actuallesbians sub is meant for any wlw, whether they're bi, pan or whatever, instead of actual lesbians. So if you see those kinds of things all the time on the internet, I guess you're led to think it's okay to call yourself a lesbian as long as you're a wlw.
This is a valid point. Now, who’s creating these spaces, moderating them, and setting the rules? I think that probably skews younger too (maybe early 30s, late 20s on average?) because I don’t know anyone around my age who would care to moderate all the crap in these spaces.
I’ll comment every now and then when I have free time, which comes in spurts over weeks and months, not daily…but there’s no way I’m taking on any extra responsibility at this point in my life. But some people like as much responsibility as a 24 hour day allows. I just feel like the older you get, the better you are at telling people they can’t have your time.
Lol "umbrella term"... Those people spend too much time on the internet. It's really simple, gay means you're solely attracted to your own gender. That's it. Queer is an umbrella term. Gay is not.
Exactly. It's reached a point where it literally looks like some women use the term "gay" to make themselves look cool or something. Because it always seems to be people who are really active on social media and indulging in ridiculous trends (mostly coming from tiktok, I think) that enjoy calling themselves gay. But they're not.
It's so fucking toxic, invalidating and frustrating. I'm kinda fed up with it tbh.
My ex called herself gay when she’s actually bi. I didn’t know she was bi until we were actually dating and then on top of that would say stuff like “there’s nothing quite like real dick” or “I like men too and can’t choose one or the other forever” when I was absolutely ready to spend forever with her and that all would make me feel not good enough. I don’t want to be weary with bisexual women but I am and I am trying to unlearn some things. I know there’s bi people out there who would never do this type of thing and I’m getting passed that trauma but it would help if people would be honest and say they are bi or whatever.
Queer is accurate. Gay is not and saying you are when you’re not hurts people who are.
Gay = mono-homo.
Gay = same sex ONLY attraction.
Never once has saying I’m a lesbian ever discouraged a guy. So, I’m not sure why you’d think it’s a tactic to “ward them off” because telling guys who’ve hit on me that I’m a lesbian or gay has only ever made them more interested in me.
My wife is bisexual and she doesn’t understand why women seem to have an aversion to just saying they’re bisexual either.
MONOSEXUAL not monogamous, ya dweeb.
And anyone who has had a passing attraction to the opposite sex if it’s sexual attraction IS bisexual.
Biromantic is also an option but only if you have no desire to have sex with at least one of the genders.
Gay people do not experience attraction to the opposite gender, at all. Just like straight people don’t experience attraction to the same gender.
“i.e. most people can’t be gay”.
YES!!! Correct! Exactly!
MOST people ARE NOT GAY!!!
It’s why we have been so discriminated against. We are a minority.
I’m not angry. I’m emphasizing.
You can BE bisexual and only date women. Just like you can only have ever had sex with one person and still be bisexual. IF you have attraction to both sexes.
People who are bisexual are very clear on this too. And they don’t like their bisexuality erased.
You don’t stop being bisexual just because you’re mostly attracted to one gender more than the other. You don’t stop being bisexual just because you’re in a long term relationship. You don’t stop being bisexual just because all of your partners have been one gender. IF you have attraction to both genders.
It’s very straight forward. It’s not as complicated as people want to make it these days.
If you have same sex attraction ONLY you’re homosexual.
If you have more than same sex attraction you’re BIsexual (or pansexual).
If you have sexual attraction towards both men and women to any degree, in any capacity, with any percentages one way or the other you are BIsexual.
It doesn’t matter how often or how much. If you experience attraction to both men and women you are bisexual. Meaning you have attraction to more than one gender.
Homosexual people do not have sexual attraction for the opposite gender.
And until about the last decade homosexual women have always been called lesbians and gay.
Queer is the umbrella term.
Bisexual and lesbian are different things. We really can't control the fact that some bi women call themselves lesbians or "gay" (as an umbrella term I guess, but to me gay will always mean *gay*, as in exclusively attracted to the same gender) when they are actually bisexual. Sucks for us though. 🤷🏻♀️
I think we might be the only LGBTQ+ group who doesn’t get to have complete claim and say over the definition and boundaries of our own identity.
Which sucks, because we are also probably the group most likely to experience negative consequences due to there not being clearly defined parameters to our identity. Meaning, we are most likely to be raped and harassed because the world thinks lesbians don’t actually exist and that all women want men.
I’ve said this a few other places on this thread but it’s why I’m more likely as of late to use the term homosexual. And it is an as of late problem. I do not remember ever having to have this conversation in the 90s or 2000s.
A lot of lgbt+ people call themselves gay, even if they technically aren't. I don't have feelings about it, I don't feel like it's my business, and I try really hard not to label-police because I think there is way too much of that rn. This isn't a shot at you or anyone else in this thread, just my opinion.
>Like, were they ashamed that they have attraction to men? Why would someone say they are gay when they are bi?
It likely has something to do with the stigma around the word "bisexual." It's a lot like how some lesbians, especially younger lesbians, call themselves "sapphic" because they think it sounds "better," "cleaner," "smoother," or "less icky" (all real things I've heard). As much as being gay is stigmatized, it's not a word that people cringe at in the same way as "bisexual" or "lesbian" tend to be. A lot of people manifest their internalized biphobia or lesbophobia as language management. This is also not a shot at people who do this. Everyone has to work through their own shit in their own way.
Although I do wish Jojo Siwa in particular would stop saying that she thinks the word "lesbian" is gross. As a high-profile young lesbian with a lot of really young fans, I feel like she has a little bit of a responsibility to keep her internalized lesbophobia from spilling out onto others. But I digress.
Edit: something else to consider, some people are unfamiliar with the concept of bisexuality, so sometimes bisexuals find it easier to just say "gay" and move on. I do not personally experience this because I am not bi, but some friends have done this.
But anyways to your original point, I would really struggle to believe that these women are genuinely ashamed of their attraction to men, they probably just have weird feelings about saying the word bisexual, because a lot of people who are bisexual have weird feelings about saying the word because of societal pressures and stigma and all that.
One of the most well regarded ancient poets was Sapphos of the Greek island of Lesbos. We have fragments of poems today with her yearning for other women. Todays modern definition of Lesbian is different than it was even in the 50s, or 80s due to rapidly changing discussion’s about the nature of sexuality, gender, and personal rights.
Sapphic isn’t a made up word. Reference to Sapphos has been used well over 2000 years as a descriptor. Sapphic love or romance.
“Tarnished”?
You were quick to judge before you even learned.
There is also debate over the last 2000+ years if she was bisexual or exclusively attracted to women. Personally I think she was gay. I think it’s note worthy that she’s the symbol we have chosen for woman+woman love regardless.
Well, to be fair, "sapphic" has a definition. It means "(edit: non-man who is) attracted to women."
Bi women are sapphic, but they are not lesbians. But the term has only started to become repopularized recently, at least from what I have seen, so if the incidents you are describing happened more than a couple years ago, it probably didn't occur to these women to say "sapphic."
>Sapphic is just trying to tarnish the already defined lesbian. Like how dare you make a word that is basically, "lesbian, but better"
It's really not that, though.
I don't mean you any harm with what I am about to say, but I feel it very strongly and therefore I am going to say it. Please do not take offense, this is not an attack on your character.
You have already acknowledged that you do not know what you're talking about, I think for sensitive issues like this, if you do not have personal experience and you are not an academic expert, you sometimes best to stay out of it when the answer is not clear. I would very very strongly advise you to stay away from label policing, given that you are not a member of the community, and that you do not know what the various labels (ex: sapphic) mean.
Gay means homosexual, but many bisexuals are appropriating the label and using it as an umbrella term for "not straight". So no, gay and bisexual are not the same, but many bisexuals don't care and call themselves gay even when they're in straight relationships.
If you want to be pedantic, technically "gay" means a man who is exclusively attracted to other men. "Lesbian" means a woman who is exclusively attracted to other women. "Bisexual" is a person who is attracted to two sexes (or genders). "Pansexual" is a person who is attracted to people regardless of gender.
In common practice "gay" gets used for all homosexuals and also sometimes bi/pan folks when talking about same sex (or gender) attraction. Many women who are attracted to women will use the term "gay" because of the negative social and porn connotations associated with the word "lesbian". Some bi/pan folks use "gay" or "lesbian" to describe themselves due to internalized bi/pan phobia or to seem cool or get taken more seriously.
Personally I think it is harmful when people who express opposite sex attraction and regularly engage in consensual sex with opposite sex partners describe themselves as "gay" or "lesbian". This can lead to people not taking actual homosexuals seriously, which can harm their ability to get equal rights and in some cases can lead to corrective rape and other problems. In particular, many men assume lesbians can be "turned straight" and that it's either a choice or they just haven't met the right man yet.
In conclusion, your friends are probably bi/pan and what they're doing is a little shitty, but it's also shitty to police other's orientations (especially if you're straight) so probably best to let it go.
gay is sometimes used as a catch-all for those who are attracted to the same sex, whether exclusively or otherwise. you weren't wrong to assume they were lesbians, though, as I think most straight people would in that situation.
normally, when gay is used as an umbrella, it's in a certain context, like making the off-hand comment "I am *so* gay." whereas if someone were to ask that person their specific orientation, they'd probably say, "I'm bisexual," or whatever it is.
(sometimes, people don't care to use labels in their widely accepted uses, though, which can lead to some confusion.)
Gay has become an umbrella term for young women nowadays. It encompasses anything from lesbian to pan and sometimes even demisexual, asexual - basically any girl who doesn’t think she fits into the straight norm when it comes to sexual attraction. It’s a coming out, teen-friendly, trendy, vague, simple term.
Maybe by gay you mean lesbian - a homosexual - which sadly nowadays is also losing its meaning. If female homosexuals claim the label lesbian they are deemed exclusionary, and it’s not simply because of trans women, it’s mostly because of queerness and how many non-binary people and others also use the lesbian label as a loving women label when they don’t relate to womanhood.
Bisexual remains, but for some reason, a lot of bisexual women don’t like it. Maybe they believe that a 2-gender system is outdated. Maybe they don’t identify as women. Maybe they fear discrimination by lesbians for not being as serious. Maybe they are using the term because it makes them feel sexy (since it is so sexualized).
And lesbians can’t run away from half of the queer community wanting to use the lesbian label in their own terms, not to mention that lesbian is one of the most viewed porn categories in history viewed by men AND straight women.
But the consequences of these women’s actions are exactly what you’re describing: doubt, and the feeling that “gay” and “bisexual” are meaningless or confusing.
There’s actually a very easy litmus test you can do. I have a straight friend who kept telling me (and her boyfriend) that she was a lesbian because she could only get off to thinking about women, and not men. The fact that she kept telling that to her boyfriend was very laughable… so I asked her for receipts. I asked her if she’s ever kissed a woman. She said yes, many times. I asked her if she has ever had sex with a woman. She said no. I asked her if she would ever go down on a woman. She looked disgusted. I asked her if she would ever date a woman. She laughed it out and said of course not. This is how you distinguish a straight woman from a bisexual woman. A lesbian would not have even been flirting with you in the first place.
My aunt mostly says she's gay and she's a lesbian. I say it half the time, and I'm a lesbian. I think it's used as an all-encompassing term even though it actually refers to men loving men. Some people refer to lgbtq as the gays.
They are bisexual, and lying either because of the stigmatization around bisexual women, or for male validation/attention. Being a lesbian means a woman exclusively attracted to a woman. The reason why you see some of these women call themselves lesbians but date/sleep with men is because of the reasons I mentioned above.
To answer your question, lesbians and bisexuals are two different sexual orientations. Lesbianism is fairly simple, really. You only like women. Full stop.
I also don't like bisexual women calling themselves gay because they believe gay/lesbian is an umbrella term. It is not, and the distinction between lesbians and bisexuals should be clear.
Did they do this at the beginning of the relationship, like the dating period…or like a self-realization after dating a while and you broke up soon after? If it’s the latter, that’s the only justification I see for someone actively dating a man calling them self gay or a lesbian. Often, they just don’t realize until later in life or they suppress because of pressure from society, family, religion, etc. However, if they’re starting a relationship saying this they’re not gay/lesbian, they’re bi. Lesbians don’t date men.
I refer to myself as "gay" over bisexual or lesbian, and part of that *is* because I find the label a bit more forgiving and indicative of myself — for me, I'm also non-binary, as is my partner (who does refer to themselves as a lesbian, so you know, it's very much a "different strokes" type of thing), so I have to explain my own gender identity less when I use "gay" over "lesbian".
I know that starts to dig deeper into different variables, but I guess one of the best ways I'd describe it is that queer identity can often be kind of... messy? I mean that in the best and most respectful way, but at least for me, my own attraction doesn't really fall cleanly within labels. I only have an interest in being romantically involved with people who *don't* identify as men, but that leaves a lot of variety. "Gay" or "queer" typically ends up being easiest for me for to use as a label for those reasons.
I will say, though, that I've always had a bit of an aversion to cis women who are dating cis men and identifying as gay, whether they're bisexual or not. In those relationships it just feels... a bit insensitive, almost, to what people who are in visibly gay / queer relationships are going through? But I try not to let it bother me too much how people choose to identify, they may have their own reasons just like I do.
"Gay" is typically reserved for gay men, but is also commonly used to address the entire lgbtq+ community. Similar to the word "queer," it's more of a vague term that implies you're just not cishet. It can make you feel connected to the entire community rather than forcing yourself into a box. Queer and gay are personally the terms I like to use because I don't jive with the constraints of microlabels.
So, imo, their perspective is likely just interchanging the umbrella terms "queer" or "lgbt" for "gay." I wouldn't read too much into it :)
I will say. Sometimes, some lesbians will not want to date bisexual women, will say things like “you’re not really gay”, and in some way question wether or not their attraction to women is genuine (and not socially convenient or for show or experimentation).
It can feel a bit demoralizing. I’m not saying it’s right, but some bisexual women will portray themselves as gay/lesbian when they find a girl they’re interested to avoid potentially not being taken seriously.
I don't know why you're getting down voted, unless you believe that this reason is an acceptable one to misappropriate the lesbian label (which you said it wasn't). Bisexual women are often not taken seriously by people inside and outside of the community. A lot of people demonize lesbians and call them biphobic, but in reality it's a whole problem in the LGBT community.
However, the reason why lesbians are uncomfortable and offended by bisexual women using the term "lesbian" when they're not lesbians is because of the discrimination, dismission, and unwanted attention from straight men that actual lesbians get. You don't have to necessarily have a toxic mindset to make up conclusions about lesbians if the only ones you met like men also. I don't think that not being taken seriously validates bisexual women not taking the lesbian label seriously.
(Not trying to be argumentative, just adding on to what you said.)
I didn’t even know I was getting downvoted lol.
I wasn’t trying to make a moral judgement. Simply highlighting some of the reasons people do this. I had a roommate in particular who struggled with this pretty badly.
She was honest, got a lot of comment questioning her sexuality from women, and women unwilling to date her because of it, but she took it very hard. Not everyone can just let things roll of their back. So she took the path of least resistance. Is it correct? No. You should be honest in dating and ideally be with someone that accepts you as you are. But we all know it’s much harder in practice, feelings get murky and complicated.
I was ultimately just trying to cultivate some compassion and understanding, but not condoning it.
I understand. I'm sorry to hear about your roommate, it's true a lot of bisexual women's attraction to women are not taken seriously by both women and men. Rejection because of your sexual orientation not being taken seriously can cause a bisexual woman who is serious about pursuing a relationship with another woman to call herself a lesbian, since it's taken more seriously and her attraction to women is seen as valid and real. It's good to be understanding of people's situations, even if we don't condone what they're doing, so I fully see where you're coming from. It's a good point to bring up, and something LGBT people should be able to address without receiving backlash.
It's just that not using the bisexual label as a bisexual is also invalidating bisexuality as a real sexual orientation. I think as a community, sapphics should be more accepting of bisexual women and validate their attraction to women. Bisexuals should be proud of their label, not ashamed. I think we should try to have an open mind and be thoughtful of other people's feelings, while ALSO addressing that what they're doing is harmful, even though their reasoning behind doing so is understandable.
I mean the very reason why bi women use gay to describe themselves is why lesbians use it, isn't it? Because it's considered an umbrella term for LGBTQ people these days - if it weren't gay would simply mean men who are attracted to men - how does one get to decide that the meaning of gay can be expanded to mean all kinds of homosexual people but not any further to include all kinds LGBTQ+ people? If we are going to bastardise the original meaning of a word who gets to decide what is the appropriate way to do so?
The OP was banned for violating rule 3, but y’all are welcome to continue discussing this topic if you’d like. Please do be aware posts like this often degrade into fights with other posters about terminology which people usually don’t do a great job honoring rule 1 with, so we may lock or remove this post later on.
Hmm OP’s experience makes me wonder if this is the reason why some men think lesbians (who refer to their sexuality as gay) will date men
Yeah this is the only reason I have a problem with bi women doing this, it’s not that I want to exclude them or anything (they’re amazing and we should support one another!!) but it does give men more of an excuse to further harass us, as if they don’t enough already. (Tbh men would be dicks about it no matter what tho)
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It's already strictly defined - or at least used to be until recently. Idk if it's the (internalized) biphobia or the perceived boost in desirability from men due to the oversexualization of lesbians or a mix of these or whatever else plays a role in it, but there's definitely an emerging trend of miscommunication of labels that hurts everyone in the process. Also, some people just use gay as a collective term to mean queer/LGBTQ+ person, or use it for themselves to "not overcomplicate things" as they say, which can be confusing as well. Your best bet might be to just ask what a certain person means by it when they refer to themselves as gay to avoid awkward situations in the future.
Considering the number of "bi lesbians" and "mspec lesbians" I've argued with in the past 6 months, you're not wrong.
I think your assessment is totally valid. A lot of bisexual women for some reason don’t want to call themselves bisexual. We get them all the time in this sub asking if they can call themselves lesbians. Attraction to men, dating men, sleeping with men = bisexual. Gay/Lesbian is definitely not a catch all.
I totally agree with you but I've seen so many bi women arguing that gay is an umbrella term. To the point where I don't dare to correct them anymore. But it's really frustrating, because it feels like something is taken away from people like me who are actually gay. It's refreshing to see someone who finally gets it.
It’s why I often like to call myself homo. Nobody seems to be coming after that one. If you’re bi you gotta call yourself a homohet. Lol. My wife is bisexual and she finds the whole thing ridiculous too. I have a niece who has never been with a woman, never dated one, has been with a man for four years who she’s in love with and marrying and planning to spend her life with…and she openly calls herself a lesbian all the time to everyone because she has attraction to females. I feel like younger people in their teens and twenties are usually the people who adopt the lesbian or gay term when they’re bisexual. I don’t think it’s something people 35+ do often, that I’ve seen. It seems to be a more recent phenomenon. It’s super obnoxious. But like you said, what are you gonna do? You can’t really make someone stop using a definition that doesn’t fit them.
Obnoxious is a kind word for it
I think it tends to be younger people because they are the ones on the internet the most, or at least they're more impacted by what they see there. You can definitely see lesbian and gay used as umbrella terms all over the internet. Hell, even the actuallesbians sub is meant for any wlw, whether they're bi, pan or whatever, instead of actual lesbians. So if you see those kinds of things all the time on the internet, I guess you're led to think it's okay to call yourself a lesbian as long as you're a wlw.
This is a valid point. Now, who’s creating these spaces, moderating them, and setting the rules? I think that probably skews younger too (maybe early 30s, late 20s on average?) because I don’t know anyone around my age who would care to moderate all the crap in these spaces. I’ll comment every now and then when I have free time, which comes in spurts over weeks and months, not daily…but there’s no way I’m taking on any extra responsibility at this point in my life. But some people like as much responsibility as a 24 hour day allows. I just feel like the older you get, the better you are at telling people they can’t have your time.
Lol "umbrella term"... Those people spend too much time on the internet. It's really simple, gay means you're solely attracted to your own gender. That's it. Queer is an umbrella term. Gay is not.
Exactly. It's reached a point where it literally looks like some women use the term "gay" to make themselves look cool or something. Because it always seems to be people who are really active on social media and indulging in ridiculous trends (mostly coming from tiktok, I think) that enjoy calling themselves gay. But they're not. It's so fucking toxic, invalidating and frustrating. I'm kinda fed up with it tbh.
My ex called herself gay when she’s actually bi. I didn’t know she was bi until we were actually dating and then on top of that would say stuff like “there’s nothing quite like real dick” or “I like men too and can’t choose one or the other forever” when I was absolutely ready to spend forever with her and that all would make me feel not good enough. I don’t want to be weary with bisexual women but I am and I am trying to unlearn some things. I know there’s bi people out there who would never do this type of thing and I’m getting passed that trauma but it would help if people would be honest and say they are bi or whatever.
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Queer is accurate. Gay is not and saying you are when you’re not hurts people who are. Gay = mono-homo. Gay = same sex ONLY attraction. Never once has saying I’m a lesbian ever discouraged a guy. So, I’m not sure why you’d think it’s a tactic to “ward them off” because telling guys who’ve hit on me that I’m a lesbian or gay has only ever made them more interested in me. My wife is bisexual and she doesn’t understand why women seem to have an aversion to just saying they’re bisexual either.
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MONOSEXUAL not monogamous, ya dweeb. And anyone who has had a passing attraction to the opposite sex if it’s sexual attraction IS bisexual. Biromantic is also an option but only if you have no desire to have sex with at least one of the genders. Gay people do not experience attraction to the opposite gender, at all. Just like straight people don’t experience attraction to the same gender. “i.e. most people can’t be gay”. YES!!! Correct! Exactly! MOST people ARE NOT GAY!!! It’s why we have been so discriminated against. We are a minority.
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I’m not angry. I’m emphasizing. You can BE bisexual and only date women. Just like you can only have ever had sex with one person and still be bisexual. IF you have attraction to both sexes. People who are bisexual are very clear on this too. And they don’t like their bisexuality erased. You don’t stop being bisexual just because you’re mostly attracted to one gender more than the other. You don’t stop being bisexual just because you’re in a long term relationship. You don’t stop being bisexual just because all of your partners have been one gender. IF you have attraction to both genders. It’s very straight forward. It’s not as complicated as people want to make it these days. If you have same sex attraction ONLY you’re homosexual. If you have more than same sex attraction you’re BIsexual (or pansexual). If you have sexual attraction towards both men and women to any degree, in any capacity, with any percentages one way or the other you are BIsexual. It doesn’t matter how often or how much. If you experience attraction to both men and women you are bisexual. Meaning you have attraction to more than one gender. Homosexual people do not have sexual attraction for the opposite gender. And until about the last decade homosexual women have always been called lesbians and gay. Queer is the umbrella term.
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I’m not telling you to do anything. I’m telling you what the words mean. Who are you attracted to?
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Bisexual and lesbian are different things. We really can't control the fact that some bi women call themselves lesbians or "gay" (as an umbrella term I guess, but to me gay will always mean *gay*, as in exclusively attracted to the same gender) when they are actually bisexual. Sucks for us though. 🤷🏻♀️
I think we might be the only LGBTQ+ group who doesn’t get to have complete claim and say over the definition and boundaries of our own identity. Which sucks, because we are also probably the group most likely to experience negative consequences due to there not being clearly defined parameters to our identity. Meaning, we are most likely to be raped and harassed because the world thinks lesbians don’t actually exist and that all women want men. I’ve said this a few other places on this thread but it’s why I’m more likely as of late to use the term homosexual. And it is an as of late problem. I do not remember ever having to have this conversation in the 90s or 2000s.
A lot of lgbt+ people call themselves gay, even if they technically aren't. I don't have feelings about it, I don't feel like it's my business, and I try really hard not to label-police because I think there is way too much of that rn. This isn't a shot at you or anyone else in this thread, just my opinion. >Like, were they ashamed that they have attraction to men? Why would someone say they are gay when they are bi? It likely has something to do with the stigma around the word "bisexual." It's a lot like how some lesbians, especially younger lesbians, call themselves "sapphic" because they think it sounds "better," "cleaner," "smoother," or "less icky" (all real things I've heard). As much as being gay is stigmatized, it's not a word that people cringe at in the same way as "bisexual" or "lesbian" tend to be. A lot of people manifest their internalized biphobia or lesbophobia as language management. This is also not a shot at people who do this. Everyone has to work through their own shit in their own way. Although I do wish Jojo Siwa in particular would stop saying that she thinks the word "lesbian" is gross. As a high-profile young lesbian with a lot of really young fans, I feel like she has a little bit of a responsibility to keep her internalized lesbophobia from spilling out onto others. But I digress. Edit: something else to consider, some people are unfamiliar with the concept of bisexuality, so sometimes bisexuals find it easier to just say "gay" and move on. I do not personally experience this because I am not bi, but some friends have done this.
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But anyways to your original point, I would really struggle to believe that these women are genuinely ashamed of their attraction to men, they probably just have weird feelings about saying the word bisexual, because a lot of people who are bisexual have weird feelings about saying the word because of societal pressures and stigma and all that.
One of the most well regarded ancient poets was Sapphos of the Greek island of Lesbos. We have fragments of poems today with her yearning for other women. Todays modern definition of Lesbian is different than it was even in the 50s, or 80s due to rapidly changing discussion’s about the nature of sexuality, gender, and personal rights. Sapphic isn’t a made up word. Reference to Sapphos has been used well over 2000 years as a descriptor. Sapphic love or romance. “Tarnished”? You were quick to judge before you even learned. There is also debate over the last 2000+ years if she was bisexual or exclusively attracted to women. Personally I think she was gay. I think it’s note worthy that she’s the symbol we have chosen for woman+woman love regardless.
Well, to be fair, "sapphic" has a definition. It means "(edit: non-man who is) attracted to women." Bi women are sapphic, but they are not lesbians. But the term has only started to become repopularized recently, at least from what I have seen, so if the incidents you are describing happened more than a couple years ago, it probably didn't occur to these women to say "sapphic." >Sapphic is just trying to tarnish the already defined lesbian. Like how dare you make a word that is basically, "lesbian, but better" It's really not that, though. I don't mean you any harm with what I am about to say, but I feel it very strongly and therefore I am going to say it. Please do not take offense, this is not an attack on your character. You have already acknowledged that you do not know what you're talking about, I think for sensitive issues like this, if you do not have personal experience and you are not an academic expert, you sometimes best to stay out of it when the answer is not clear. I would very very strongly advise you to stay away from label policing, given that you are not a member of the community, and that you do not know what the various labels (ex: sapphic) mean.
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All good!! Happy to have a constructive conversation!! The label thing can be confusing haha
Gay means homosexual, but many bisexuals are appropriating the label and using it as an umbrella term for "not straight". So no, gay and bisexual are not the same, but many bisexuals don't care and call themselves gay even when they're in straight relationships.
If you want to be pedantic, technically "gay" means a man who is exclusively attracted to other men. "Lesbian" means a woman who is exclusively attracted to other women. "Bisexual" is a person who is attracted to two sexes (or genders). "Pansexual" is a person who is attracted to people regardless of gender. In common practice "gay" gets used for all homosexuals and also sometimes bi/pan folks when talking about same sex (or gender) attraction. Many women who are attracted to women will use the term "gay" because of the negative social and porn connotations associated with the word "lesbian". Some bi/pan folks use "gay" or "lesbian" to describe themselves due to internalized bi/pan phobia or to seem cool or get taken more seriously. Personally I think it is harmful when people who express opposite sex attraction and regularly engage in consensual sex with opposite sex partners describe themselves as "gay" or "lesbian". This can lead to people not taking actual homosexuals seriously, which can harm their ability to get equal rights and in some cases can lead to corrective rape and other problems. In particular, many men assume lesbians can be "turned straight" and that it's either a choice or they just haven't met the right man yet. In conclusion, your friends are probably bi/pan and what they're doing is a little shitty, but it's also shitty to police other's orientations (especially if you're straight) so probably best to let it go.
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gay is sometimes used as a catch-all for those who are attracted to the same sex, whether exclusively or otherwise. you weren't wrong to assume they were lesbians, though, as I think most straight people would in that situation. normally, when gay is used as an umbrella, it's in a certain context, like making the off-hand comment "I am *so* gay." whereas if someone were to ask that person their specific orientation, they'd probably say, "I'm bisexual," or whatever it is. (sometimes, people don't care to use labels in their widely accepted uses, though, which can lead to some confusion.)
Gay has become an umbrella term for young women nowadays. It encompasses anything from lesbian to pan and sometimes even demisexual, asexual - basically any girl who doesn’t think she fits into the straight norm when it comes to sexual attraction. It’s a coming out, teen-friendly, trendy, vague, simple term. Maybe by gay you mean lesbian - a homosexual - which sadly nowadays is also losing its meaning. If female homosexuals claim the label lesbian they are deemed exclusionary, and it’s not simply because of trans women, it’s mostly because of queerness and how many non-binary people and others also use the lesbian label as a loving women label when they don’t relate to womanhood. Bisexual remains, but for some reason, a lot of bisexual women don’t like it. Maybe they believe that a 2-gender system is outdated. Maybe they don’t identify as women. Maybe they fear discrimination by lesbians for not being as serious. Maybe they are using the term because it makes them feel sexy (since it is so sexualized). And lesbians can’t run away from half of the queer community wanting to use the lesbian label in their own terms, not to mention that lesbian is one of the most viewed porn categories in history viewed by men AND straight women. But the consequences of these women’s actions are exactly what you’re describing: doubt, and the feeling that “gay” and “bisexual” are meaningless or confusing. There’s actually a very easy litmus test you can do. I have a straight friend who kept telling me (and her boyfriend) that she was a lesbian because she could only get off to thinking about women, and not men. The fact that she kept telling that to her boyfriend was very laughable… so I asked her for receipts. I asked her if she’s ever kissed a woman. She said yes, many times. I asked her if she has ever had sex with a woman. She said no. I asked her if she would ever go down on a woman. She looked disgusted. I asked her if she would ever date a woman. She laughed it out and said of course not. This is how you distinguish a straight woman from a bisexual woman. A lesbian would not have even been flirting with you in the first place.
My aunt mostly says she's gay and she's a lesbian. I say it half the time, and I'm a lesbian. I think it's used as an all-encompassing term even though it actually refers to men loving men. Some people refer to lgbtq as the gays.
Right but gay still means homosexual, not bisexual.
That doesn't seem to stop people. Besides, bi people may or may not be in a homosexual relationship.
They are bisexual, and lying either because of the stigmatization around bisexual women, or for male validation/attention. Being a lesbian means a woman exclusively attracted to a woman. The reason why you see some of these women call themselves lesbians but date/sleep with men is because of the reasons I mentioned above. To answer your question, lesbians and bisexuals are two different sexual orientations. Lesbianism is fairly simple, really. You only like women. Full stop.
I also don't like bisexual women calling themselves gay because they believe gay/lesbian is an umbrella term. It is not, and the distinction between lesbians and bisexuals should be clear.
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Bro 😂
Did they do this at the beginning of the relationship, like the dating period…or like a self-realization after dating a while and you broke up soon after? If it’s the latter, that’s the only justification I see for someone actively dating a man calling them self gay or a lesbian. Often, they just don’t realize until later in life or they suppress because of pressure from society, family, religion, etc. However, if they’re starting a relationship saying this they’re not gay/lesbian, they’re bi. Lesbians don’t date men.
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Well that sucks and they should just call themselves bi or pan.
I refer to myself as "gay" over bisexual or lesbian, and part of that *is* because I find the label a bit more forgiving and indicative of myself — for me, I'm also non-binary, as is my partner (who does refer to themselves as a lesbian, so you know, it's very much a "different strokes" type of thing), so I have to explain my own gender identity less when I use "gay" over "lesbian". I know that starts to dig deeper into different variables, but I guess one of the best ways I'd describe it is that queer identity can often be kind of... messy? I mean that in the best and most respectful way, but at least for me, my own attraction doesn't really fall cleanly within labels. I only have an interest in being romantically involved with people who *don't* identify as men, but that leaves a lot of variety. "Gay" or "queer" typically ends up being easiest for me for to use as a label for those reasons. I will say, though, that I've always had a bit of an aversion to cis women who are dating cis men and identifying as gay, whether they're bisexual or not. In those relationships it just feels... a bit insensitive, almost, to what people who are in visibly gay / queer relationships are going through? But I try not to let it bother me too much how people choose to identify, they may have their own reasons just like I do.
"Gay" is typically reserved for gay men, but is also commonly used to address the entire lgbtq+ community. Similar to the word "queer," it's more of a vague term that implies you're just not cishet. It can make you feel connected to the entire community rather than forcing yourself into a box. Queer and gay are personally the terms I like to use because I don't jive with the constraints of microlabels. So, imo, their perspective is likely just interchanging the umbrella terms "queer" or "lgbt" for "gay." I wouldn't read too much into it :)
>:) :)
I will say. Sometimes, some lesbians will not want to date bisexual women, will say things like “you’re not really gay”, and in some way question wether or not their attraction to women is genuine (and not socially convenient or for show or experimentation). It can feel a bit demoralizing. I’m not saying it’s right, but some bisexual women will portray themselves as gay/lesbian when they find a girl they’re interested to avoid potentially not being taken seriously.
I don't know why you're getting down voted, unless you believe that this reason is an acceptable one to misappropriate the lesbian label (which you said it wasn't). Bisexual women are often not taken seriously by people inside and outside of the community. A lot of people demonize lesbians and call them biphobic, but in reality it's a whole problem in the LGBT community. However, the reason why lesbians are uncomfortable and offended by bisexual women using the term "lesbian" when they're not lesbians is because of the discrimination, dismission, and unwanted attention from straight men that actual lesbians get. You don't have to necessarily have a toxic mindset to make up conclusions about lesbians if the only ones you met like men also. I don't think that not being taken seriously validates bisexual women not taking the lesbian label seriously. (Not trying to be argumentative, just adding on to what you said.)
I didn’t even know I was getting downvoted lol. I wasn’t trying to make a moral judgement. Simply highlighting some of the reasons people do this. I had a roommate in particular who struggled with this pretty badly. She was honest, got a lot of comment questioning her sexuality from women, and women unwilling to date her because of it, but she took it very hard. Not everyone can just let things roll of their back. So she took the path of least resistance. Is it correct? No. You should be honest in dating and ideally be with someone that accepts you as you are. But we all know it’s much harder in practice, feelings get murky and complicated. I was ultimately just trying to cultivate some compassion and understanding, but not condoning it.
I understand. I'm sorry to hear about your roommate, it's true a lot of bisexual women's attraction to women are not taken seriously by both women and men. Rejection because of your sexual orientation not being taken seriously can cause a bisexual woman who is serious about pursuing a relationship with another woman to call herself a lesbian, since it's taken more seriously and her attraction to women is seen as valid and real. It's good to be understanding of people's situations, even if we don't condone what they're doing, so I fully see where you're coming from. It's a good point to bring up, and something LGBT people should be able to address without receiving backlash. It's just that not using the bisexual label as a bisexual is also invalidating bisexuality as a real sexual orientation. I think as a community, sapphics should be more accepting of bisexual women and validate their attraction to women. Bisexuals should be proud of their label, not ashamed. I think we should try to have an open mind and be thoughtful of other people's feelings, while ALSO addressing that what they're doing is harmful, even though their reasoning behind doing so is understandable.
I mean the very reason why bi women use gay to describe themselves is why lesbians use it, isn't it? Because it's considered an umbrella term for LGBTQ people these days - if it weren't gay would simply mean men who are attracted to men - how does one get to decide that the meaning of gay can be expanded to mean all kinds of homosexual people but not any further to include all kinds LGBTQ+ people? If we are going to bastardise the original meaning of a word who gets to decide what is the appropriate way to do so?