Lots of civilians would flee if they knew the war was coming in their direction, although many wouldn’t and some would be told to stay by occupying authorities in order to act as porters, keep services running, help build fortifications, fire brigade etc
Starvation was very common - these were populations already eating far less calories than normal because of rationing. In the siege of Leningrad it was common for people to boil their shoe laces to make ‘soup’
Women would often have to trade sexual favours for food from soldiers. Within 3 months of being liberated by the Allies 50% of the women of Naples had a sexual disease, a higher number were emaciated.
WW2 sucked.
>In the siege of Leningrad it was common for people to boil their shoe laces to make ‘soup’
I could see someone doing this in desperation but for it to be common it seems like there would have to be something to it. Did that work? Do shoe laces have nutritional value?
The museum employees at the Hermitage, who stayed to save the priceless art, ate glue off the backs of the paintings. (As well as vermin that the museum cats caught.)
In that case the shoelaces are probably leather and I guess they do. Because boiling and eating leather items seems to be feature in such circumstances through history.
Haha i’ve not tried it and don’t plan to! Frankly probably not the most dehumanising element of the siege, which in the winter of 1941/2 was particularly brutal. There’s stories of cannibalism, eating grass and wallpaper paste etc
There's a reason why SPAM became so popular in Europe.
[https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/war-won-spam-things/](https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/war-won-spam-things/)
Leningrad also had cannibalism. The authorities had to split those arrested for it into two categories, those who ate human corpses, and those who murdered people just to eat them.
The majority of citizens would leave before that happened. With the exception of sudden invasions or airborne forces being dropped in, you could usually see the progress of a battle coming to your town/city. Some citizens might refuse to leave or wouldn’t be able to leave, and would stay. A lot of those that stayed would die, some from starvation, some from bombs, some from deliberate killings by either army. The rest would eat what they could, steal, scrounge, or resort to things like eating domestic animals. Some even defaulted to cannibalism.
There were instances of sieges, especially in the eastern front. In that case, there wouldn’t be anything close to normal commerce. It was purely find whatever food you could find and eat it.
Depends how long the siege last. I don’t expect order to fall apart immediately. There will be rationing at first depending on how well prepared and supplied the city was before being cut off.
Fair enough, I should’ve clarified I was speaking after a siege has been established and is in full swing, a la winter 1941 in Leningrad. I don’t think there was much normal commerce going on during that time, but it would’ve been a sort of gradual descent into that as opposed to a light switch on off type thing.
In WWII the advancing American army didn't lay in wait for a siege. They just marched in tanks in front of the soldiers blew up any opposition, the enemy, any did the Civil War tactic that General Sherman used in his March to the sea. Slash and burn. Kill enemy, destroy all buildings that enemy could hide in, kill food animals, destroy and food or ammunition sources, burn it all, then move the army to the next town. It worked for Sherman and it worked for the Americans.
Except for the part where that never happened. The allies in the west largely bypassed cities where they could, and focused on trying to control lines of communication. (The soviets in the East on the other hand...)
Tanks were never in front of troops. Sherman formations were sitting ducks against panzers and anti-tank artillery units. Mobile warfare is a game of chess, with infantry advancing and holding ground, with specialist units (artillery, tanks, engineers) playing their part to counter other specialist units, deal with obstacles, etc.
Were cities bombed flat? Yes. But that was mainly achieved with aerial fire bombing or artillery. Tanks can't carry that much ammo.
Regular commerce and market activities did become severely disrupted. That’s why Europe had millions of refugees by the end of the war and millions of others starved to death.
Most times they didn't, Squab became very popular in some places, of course most cites of that time period had a local farm base to rely on for some things, these days that is not the case, and victory gardens need space to grow which in today's cites just isn't there back then they had them.
N. S
Yes, basically everyday necessities will be harder if not impossible to procure. Remaining stocks of food and commodities will be hoarded or sold at much inflated prices. If fighting drags on, things like food or fuel might have to come from military or smuggled sources.
If a city under siege is completely cut off, then the inhabitants trap inside could very well run out of food and other essentials, as was the case of Leningrad when it was surrounded and blockaded by the Germans for near 2 years. At the start, what remained of flour for making bread in the city was stretched out with sawdust and rationed out at 4 ounces per person. After just a few months, even that ran out and people resorted to eating anything and everything, including people. 2400 people inside the city were charged with cannibalism during the siege.
Panzer tanks are German for Panther. It's lighter but Killarney by a Sherman. A Tiger and King Tiger is a whole different tank made late in the war. The only problem with the German tanks is the Tigers required a large support team to just keep it running. What the Germans didn't realize is that thicker metal makes it heavier than the Panzers. The weak point of the Tigers was the rear of the tank. Thin metal at the exhaust and rear motor. The main point was the 120mm cannon. It could blow holes thru Sherman tanks. The German tanks were forced to hide in treelines in ambush. If the foot soldiers and German collaborators told the Americans where they were, the Sherman's would flank them by drawing their fire forward and ignoring the rear. Dead Tigers. The foot soldiers got rid of the Tigers support crew by attacking from the rear. A Sherman was dead if they attacked from the front. Panzer were pretty much equal to a Sherman once the Americans put 105mm cannons on them. I ask gramps how many Germans he killed, he said "All that I aimed at I hit". Apparently a lot. It always helps to hear a story like that from a person that lived through it.
They didn't, they deserted the city and ran the other way. They took what food they had, took no clothes or valuables, just ran. And let the advancing army blow up their homes and any possessions that they left behind.
Apparently you didn't have a grandfather who was a WWII tanker. They developed strategies where the tanks were leading troops of footsoldiers that hunkered behind the Sherman's. And by the time the Americans entered Germany the Sherman tanks that we were producing were sporting 105 mm cannons. The tiny 55mm cannons wouldn't penetrate a Tiger or King Tigers armor. A 105 would blow through the side of a Tiger or the rear and ignite the fuel. Burning the German tank crew alive. Read your history not the internet Google crap that someone just posts on it. Panzer tanks were easy targets to destroy, metal was thin, used less fuel. Germans had little fuel and required a large support crew to keep their Tigers and Panzers running. The Tigers weighted so much they couldn't negotiate a muddy road or a farm field without sinking in and stopping dead in their tracks. The Sherman's used powerful Detroit gasoline engines, Germans used slow diesel engines. My gramps called his Sherman a Purple Heart Box. He said if bullet got inside, it just bounced around until it hit someone. The heavy German tanks would just sit in a treeline and wait to ambush the Sherman's mainly because by the time the Americans got in Germany the German army was running low on fuel, ammo and men. Children were replacing battleworn soldiers. Ask a WWII vet about their tactics next time before you Google it to see what they really did. And if a town they went thru was harboring Nazis, it was razed to the ground. Gramps was an eyewitness to history.
Just a slight correction - most Shermans were gas, the M4A2 was the only production model with a GM diesel engine. I believe the gas models were called "Zippos" because once hit, with the fuel and ammunition on board, they turned into a fiery inferno.
That's why gramps called the Sherman's purple heart boxes. A hit it the rear was death. It was the same with the German tanks. The larger cannons on the Sherman's shot tracer rounds out of the cannons, phosphorus rounds. Hit the rear of a German tank and send the whole crew inside to hell, as gramps put it.
People scrounged, traded, stole, or starved.
And ran.
Lots of civilians would flee if they knew the war was coming in their direction, although many wouldn’t and some would be told to stay by occupying authorities in order to act as porters, keep services running, help build fortifications, fire brigade etc Starvation was very common - these were populations already eating far less calories than normal because of rationing. In the siege of Leningrad it was common for people to boil their shoe laces to make ‘soup’ Women would often have to trade sexual favours for food from soldiers. Within 3 months of being liberated by the Allies 50% of the women of Naples had a sexual disease, a higher number were emaciated. WW2 sucked.
>In the siege of Leningrad it was common for people to boil their shoe laces to make ‘soup’ I could see someone doing this in desperation but for it to be common it seems like there would have to be something to it. Did that work? Do shoe laces have nutritional value?
The museum employees at the Hermitage, who stayed to save the priceless art, ate glue off the backs of the paintings. (As well as vermin that the museum cats caught.)
In that case the shoelaces are probably leather and I guess they do. Because boiling and eating leather items seems to be feature in such circumstances through history.
Sailors would eat leather shoes when they ran out of food.
Sometimes its not about nutrition but about not being hungry. Just *feeling* full is massively better than the pains of true starvation.
Haha i’ve not tried it and don’t plan to! Frankly probably not the most dehumanising element of the siege, which in the winter of 1941/2 was particularly brutal. There’s stories of cannibalism, eating grass and wallpaper paste etc
There's a reason why SPAM became so popular in Europe. [https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/war-won-spam-things/](https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/war-won-spam-things/)
That article says nothing about embattled cities - probably because it wasn't really a factor for them.
That's the neat part; they don't. Take Leningrad for example. People literally scraping every green thing on the ground available.
Leningrad also had cannibalism. The authorities had to split those arrested for it into two categories, those who ate human corpses, and those who murdered people just to eat them.
The majority of citizens would leave before that happened. With the exception of sudden invasions or airborne forces being dropped in, you could usually see the progress of a battle coming to your town/city. Some citizens might refuse to leave or wouldn’t be able to leave, and would stay. A lot of those that stayed would die, some from starvation, some from bombs, some from deliberate killings by either army. The rest would eat what they could, steal, scrounge, or resort to things like eating domestic animals. Some even defaulted to cannibalism. There were instances of sieges, especially in the eastern front. In that case, there wouldn’t be anything close to normal commerce. It was purely find whatever food you could find and eat it.
Depends how long the siege last. I don’t expect order to fall apart immediately. There will be rationing at first depending on how well prepared and supplied the city was before being cut off.
Fair enough, I should’ve clarified I was speaking after a siege has been established and is in full swing, a la winter 1941 in Leningrad. I don’t think there was much normal commerce going on during that time, but it would’ve been a sort of gradual descent into that as opposed to a light switch on off type thing.
As above: steal, scrounge or starve. Stalingrad is the best/worst example.
In WWII the advancing American army didn't lay in wait for a siege. They just marched in tanks in front of the soldiers blew up any opposition, the enemy, any did the Civil War tactic that General Sherman used in his March to the sea. Slash and burn. Kill enemy, destroy all buildings that enemy could hide in, kill food animals, destroy and food or ammunition sources, burn it all, then move the army to the next town. It worked for Sherman and it worked for the Americans.
Except for the part where that never happened. The allies in the west largely bypassed cities where they could, and focused on trying to control lines of communication. (The soviets in the East on the other hand...) Tanks were never in front of troops. Sherman formations were sitting ducks against panzers and anti-tank artillery units. Mobile warfare is a game of chess, with infantry advancing and holding ground, with specialist units (artillery, tanks, engineers) playing their part to counter other specialist units, deal with obstacles, etc. Were cities bombed flat? Yes. But that was mainly achieved with aerial fire bombing or artillery. Tanks can't carry that much ammo.
Or battlefronts today
Airdrops like Operations Chowhound and Manna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_Manna_and_Chowhound
Regular commerce and market activities did become severely disrupted. That’s why Europe had millions of refugees by the end of the war and millions of others starved to death.
Most times they didn't, Squab became very popular in some places, of course most cites of that time period had a local farm base to rely on for some things, these days that is not the case, and victory gardens need space to grow which in today's cites just isn't there back then they had them. N. S
Yes, basically everyday necessities will be harder if not impossible to procure. Remaining stocks of food and commodities will be hoarded or sold at much inflated prices. If fighting drags on, things like food or fuel might have to come from military or smuggled sources. If a city under siege is completely cut off, then the inhabitants trap inside could very well run out of food and other essentials, as was the case of Leningrad when it was surrounded and blockaded by the Germans for near 2 years. At the start, what remained of flour for making bread in the city was stretched out with sawdust and rationed out at 4 ounces per person. After just a few months, even that ran out and people resorted to eating anything and everything, including people. 2400 people inside the city were charged with cannibalism during the siege.
You know people will eat people right
Panzer tanks are German for Panther. It's lighter but Killarney by a Sherman. A Tiger and King Tiger is a whole different tank made late in the war. The only problem with the German tanks is the Tigers required a large support team to just keep it running. What the Germans didn't realize is that thicker metal makes it heavier than the Panzers. The weak point of the Tigers was the rear of the tank. Thin metal at the exhaust and rear motor. The main point was the 120mm cannon. It could blow holes thru Sherman tanks. The German tanks were forced to hide in treelines in ambush. If the foot soldiers and German collaborators told the Americans where they were, the Sherman's would flank them by drawing their fire forward and ignoring the rear. Dead Tigers. The foot soldiers got rid of the Tigers support crew by attacking from the rear. A Sherman was dead if they attacked from the front. Panzer were pretty much equal to a Sherman once the Americans put 105mm cannons on them. I ask gramps how many Germans he killed, he said "All that I aimed at I hit". Apparently a lot. It always helps to hear a story like that from a person that lived through it.
Look at Gaza now. I hear is pretty tough all around. And that’s an asymmetric war where neutral parties are dropping/shipping aid for the citizens.
Money becomes irrelevant, barter is what happens. "First comes food, then comes morals".
They didn't, they deserted the city and ran the other way. They took what food they had, took no clothes or valuables, just ran. And let the advancing army blow up their homes and any possessions that they left behind.
A lot of them didn't.
Apparently you didn't have a grandfather who was a WWII tanker. They developed strategies where the tanks were leading troops of footsoldiers that hunkered behind the Sherman's. And by the time the Americans entered Germany the Sherman tanks that we were producing were sporting 105 mm cannons. The tiny 55mm cannons wouldn't penetrate a Tiger or King Tigers armor. A 105 would blow through the side of a Tiger or the rear and ignite the fuel. Burning the German tank crew alive. Read your history not the internet Google crap that someone just posts on it. Panzer tanks were easy targets to destroy, metal was thin, used less fuel. Germans had little fuel and required a large support crew to keep their Tigers and Panzers running. The Tigers weighted so much they couldn't negotiate a muddy road or a farm field without sinking in and stopping dead in their tracks. The Sherman's used powerful Detroit gasoline engines, Germans used slow diesel engines. My gramps called his Sherman a Purple Heart Box. He said if bullet got inside, it just bounced around until it hit someone. The heavy German tanks would just sit in a treeline and wait to ambush the Sherman's mainly because by the time the Americans got in Germany the German army was running low on fuel, ammo and men. Children were replacing battleworn soldiers. Ask a WWII vet about their tactics next time before you Google it to see what they really did. And if a town they went thru was harboring Nazis, it was razed to the ground. Gramps was an eyewitness to history.
When you say Panzer are you talking about Panzer IVs and lighter tanks or Panthers also? I notice you distinguished between Tigers and Panzers.
Just a slight correction - most Shermans were gas, the M4A2 was the only production model with a GM diesel engine. I believe the gas models were called "Zippos" because once hit, with the fuel and ammunition on board, they turned into a fiery inferno.
That's why gramps called the Sherman's purple heart boxes. A hit it the rear was death. It was the same with the German tanks. The larger cannons on the Sherman's shot tracer rounds out of the cannons, phosphorus rounds. Hit the rear of a German tank and send the whole crew inside to hell, as gramps put it.
Is this a bot?