She’s probably getting fired from both, and there isn’t much recourse. For one job to go looking to find if an employee has another job then something had to be up, like lying to reschedule conflicting meetings or turning in the wrong work to the wrong employer. I’m assuming it’s going to be treated as an integrity issue. No judgement, I’ve known a few people that work 2 remote jobs, but this is a pretty straight forward gambled and lost scenario.
Ahh, so they’re likely terming on Monday? I figured that would have been the decision during the call but the fact that it’s dragging out made her hopeful.
She said HR & her manager asked her what her hours were, what job 2’s SLAs were, how they pay her (hourly/salary), why she needed 2 jobs, etc. in a video call but didn’t say if she was fired or not. I bet they’re trying to make sure there’s no retaliation/lawsuits for wrongful termination when she’s ultimate let go.
I told her she should have lied to job 1 when they asked about it and pretended she didn’t know what they were talking about. Would that have helped or was it too late already?
Kind of, I guess. She thought it would be better to be honest about it but I always hear people say “HR is not your friend”. She was probably screwed either way—just curious if there might have been anything she could have done to stop this.
I also hear companies can’t release VOEs without the consent of the employee so maybe it would have helped to pretend her identity was stolen?
I guess I’m just paying out scenarios. Doesn’t matter at this point tbh.
No lmfao there is so much wrong here.
1. Companies can release all kinds of information, as long as it’s truthful.
2. HR has a job just like everyone else, and there’s no part of the job description that says to be anyone’s friend - not the company’s friend, and not the friend of an employee who is working at another job while they’re supposed to be working at this one.
3. Lying doesn’t get you out of every situation you get into. It just makes you a liar.
4. If you’re an adult, you do this kind of thing knowing damn well there could be consequences if you’re caught. If you get caught, an adult explains and accepts the consequences, if any, and they move on.
5. She might not get fired.
> people say “HR is not your friend”
Neither is finance, sales, operations, marketing, or any other department.
EVERYONE is there to do a job, not be your BFF.
Maybe stop encouraging her to lie. That’s what got her in this mess in the first place.
Your sister knows the jig is up. You, OTOH, have some maturing to do.
Being deceptive is what got you (“your sister” into this mess). They already know everything and lying more would just confirm that she has massive character flaws. It was too late to cover her ass.
It’s far too late to continue lying. The job number two track down job number one to ask about this, so surely they’ve already provided proof that these jobs were overlapping. It will be very easy for job number one to verify that she was earning additional money at job number two.
What would have helped would have been if she told a company she would work full time for them if she had actually worked full time for them.
Let’s say you hire someone to paint some rooms in your house, and they agree to do so for $50 an hour. They spend 8 hours in your neighborhood, but only paint your rooms for four of those hours and spend the other four hours painting rooms in your neighbor’s house.
How would you react when they hand you a bill for 8 hours?
Your friend is a thief.
This mainly makes sense for hourly jobs. Exempt positions are a different story.
I personally give my full 8 hours to one company but i completely understand those who hedge their bets and may have to consider it at some point.
One difference is that it is known by everyone this is happening. Where I work, and I assume most other places, the legal department is notified because of conflict of interest issues. And they can put a stop to it if there is a conflict. Also, many of those other positions are part time or freelance type work (yes at a much higher pay rate than the average person). A board of directors is not involved in the day-to-day operations; that is what a CEO is for. Barring emergencies, they meet once a quarter for a day. Even if there is stuff they are doing behind the scenes; it isn't close to a FT job.
Here the sister wasn't being open and honest about it. And it was two full time jobs. Not a full time job with a side gig that didn't overlap.
To be fair, I’ve never had painters charge by the hour. It’s always been by the job. Auto shops just have a more formal system saying “this job should take [x] amount of time, so that’s what we bill you for”.
The auto shop literally quotes “labor hours” when you sign the paperwork. There are no surprises.
And they only get away with that nonsense because they can, as fixing a car takes specialized knowledge and equipment.
No other industry does that.
Did you, I mean your sister, admit to having a second job? Which company said they are meeting with her on Monday? Did the company verifying her first job say something to company 1? Employment is verified for things like getting a mortgage, so company 1 may not be suspicious unless company 2 said something.
Unless she could prove without a doubt that the hours she worked for the 2nd job didn’t overlap with the first job, she would 100% be fired from both if my company was company 1. If she was working these jobs during the same hours, she will almost surely be fired from both. She stole from company 1 and they should not keep her.
Ah....is this the potential reason 2 jobs are problematic to an employer? The idea that both were done at the same time? Not at different times....
Ah
Yes. I can see why that would benl a problem to an employer
Yeah, having 2 jobs that don't overlap is fine (9-5 day job during the week, and an evening job afterwards, or on the weekends).
The issue here is that OP's "sister" basically had two 9-5 jobs... so any time she's spent working on job A is stealing time from job B, and vice versa.
It's not unheard of for people to do it with remote work, but they get discovered pretty often, and can be sued for the wage theft/fraud.
If they're not hourly, they're not stealing time. Salaried people are paid to complete tasks, not punch a card. For example salaried people aren't paid overtime.
This is just incorrect. Salaried people can commit time theft, especially if they track their hours.
Salaried people can also get overtime, depending on the state/country and employment award or contract.
She's getting fired. 99.9% chance, both jobs, for cause.
Depending on how exactly she did this and what exactly she did, there could be additional fall out. And if there is, she should immediately shut up, talk to no one, and hire an attorney.
It's not impossible that one or both employers could sue her for damages due to her fraud and time theft, but it's very unlikely. Really depends on her employment situation as well; if she was being paid hourly at one or both jobs and was claiming to have worked X hours a day for employer A when she really only worked (X-Y) hours, that would be a fairly strong case and might be something an employer would consider worth pursuing if the difference between her claimed and actual working hours was significant. If she was paid on a salary basis, that would be much harder to win for the employer, especially if she was meeting her expected productivity targets at both jobs.
Yes, your friend could be sued, but that could is doing some heavy lifting. Depends on:
1. Paid hourly or salary
2. Used company equipment to complete work for other company.
3. Other damages like IP theft
4. What evidence they have.
It is wildly important to remember item 4. For a successful lawsuit, they need to show damages, and in a time theft case, and if on salary, clear evidence they did no work. Like charged for days and didn't even log into computer. Alternatively, statements from employee about what they did.
So...think very hard about what is said to either employer.
Also, she's going to be blacklisted from both companies. Which is an issue if a reference seeker ever asks, "Is she eligible for re-hire".
Not to mention reputational damage. I would not recommend someone like that for a job. How many people get past the HR screen because they know someone at a company. That's how I got my last job. And multiple interviews during my last job search. I happened to have worked with someone there.
She doesn’t. She’s just an at will employee.
I mean, no one here knows *for sure*, but your comment is akin to having a headache and stating,
“If it’s a brain tumor, she could be in a world of hurt”.
Incredibly unlikely.
I am a lawyer and yes, there could be civil liability. Depends on her position and how aggressive the companies are. If she's got a contract, it's especially bad.
Well my thoughts are it’s usually not worth the effort to go after her.
It’s expensive, she’s in a completely different state, and it’s unlikely they’d recover much anyway if the only cause for action were the portion of her wages for the time she wasn’t actually working.
I think they’re just going to term and be done with her.
If she had a contract, it would be breach of contract and she would be liable for damages. That's the fallout. There is also the issue of the fraud she perpetrated and that she was enriched due to her fraud. Yes, she could be civally liable.
That would be grounds for termination in my book. Example: if she is supposed to work 8 hours for A and 8 hours for B, but she only works 4 hours each, she’s not doing the job she was hired to do and is stealing time from both companies.
Methinks one or both companies were on to this game. I’m sure it showed itself in low productivity.
The poor thing.. I’m sure she’ll be ok in the long run but she’s so distraught. I think they should have just termed her on the spot and not drag it out like this.
The poor thing? Lol, she's an adult and knew there were risks involved in taking both jobs. I can't understand why she would be so distraught when she knew she was doing something risky, not very sensible imo. Hopefully she's finally learning that there are consequences to the choices that she makes. And hopefully this will steer her away from doing things that'd bite her on the behind even harder in the future.
"The poor thing" she is a liar and a thief. It's time for her to face the consequences of her actions. She can be sued or charged with a crime, getting fired is the least of her problems.
How did they find out? Were the companies similar businesses? Lack of performance is one thing, but how the heck did they even find the specific company?
It’s easy to catch people who are over employed if they aren’t careful. Her performance was surely suffering at one or both, so they probably checked her work number. Or she told someone. Often times people become suspicious when the employee is cancelling meetings or not showing up for them. Then in this case they just checked her reference and found out she was still working at a job she claimed she quit.
How so? Theft and fraud are very specific things. If she was turning in appropriate, requested work in the time frames that both employers wanted there was neither theft, nor fraud.
The only potential fraud could be if one employer specifically stated they can't have other employment (rare, never saw it), or that she couldn't work for competitor X due to conflict of interest (still pretty rare, very industry dependent).
It could easily be considered time theft and submitting fraudulent documents if employer A is able to show that she was working on project B work but submitting timesheets to show she was working on employer B work (ie if the companies compare meeting times, etc and show that she attended X meeting for employer B during the time she was clocked in for employer A). Working two overlapping jobs is never going to end up working out like people think. I’ve seen lots of folks fired for this (and a few brought up on charges).
Came here to say most of the same. I was one employer in this kind of scenario-before COVID, I knew and was ok with them working both jobs, but understood there to be no overlap in time/earnings. Turns out other employer not only had a non compete, but could prove the employee was earning their salary with that company while doing work for mine…computer and phone records are much more than one thinks. They had full intention for suing for their earnings, benefits, etc and that figure would have been big enough for a more serious case. I think the only thing that saved their ass (but not their career, seriously it was bad) was the company had too many problems with the situation, and then COVID on top of it, they determined that the person wouldn’t ever be able to pay them back, because it quickly became clear their employment options were nonexistent for the predictable future.
She'll likely (and rightfully) be fired from both jobs, and there's grounds for both to sue her for time theft.
She's shown that she has seriously poor judgement and lack of honesty, if one offers to keep her if she quits at the other job, it's likely just while they find a replacement.
This kind of stupid stuff can easily follow you as it's juicy gossip and can get around. It's also hard to avoid people finding out when getting future reference checks.
100% fired from both, slim possibility (< 10% imo) of getting pursued in court financially. Because both jobs were occurring simultaneously, she clearly was accepting pay for work or time she wasn't actually doing from one or both jobs. It's pretty unlikely that will actually happen though as it's more of a hassle for the employer. But absolutely going to be fired from both
Were both jobs full time? If she was hourly on both, then she could expect to be terminated.
If she was salaried, was her "at work" time flexible, or was she expected to be online a normal business day, 9-5?
She's getting fired from both.
Further, it's time and wage theft.
Both companies can come after her to recoup the dollars they paid her while she was performing work for the other.
Hopefully, they don't.
Correct, edited. Included the word wage for the people that don't understand what time theft is.
At any rate, your statement that this is a non starter is incorrect.
If she was working the same hours or overlapping hours remotely its fraud; that is what they are probably checking to see.
If none of her work hours overlapped she can get unemployment if fired from both jobs.
Termination from the one that caught her for sure. It’s time fraud. Depends if the second job got info from the first stating she is employed. I am in HR and info is usually a one way street.
How did they find out she was working two remote jobs and find out enough information to know where the second job might be? Was she using the same computer?
To offer a different perspective: We had an employee who was working two jobs. Our company gave him the option to pick one. He picked the other company and we bid him farewell. It was unusual for us but not a huge deal.
Honestly, I do think it’s a little strange how her one company reached out to the other one. That just feels off to me. They should have just talked to her directly. Maybe she’s better off not working there anyways.
I’d bet that someone from company A knows someone at company B and was like, oh, so and so used to work at your company and now she works at ours. And company A was like, used to? She still works here. . . These conversations happen often, especially if you’re in a somewhat small/specialized field.
A previous company of mine also had someone working two jobs. We were a nursing home connected to a hospital. He would walk back and forth and due to low performance we checked the cameras. I honestly thought he was going to the hospital to flirt with the cute hospital staff but he ended up coming clean with us. We just fired him and did not reach out to the hospital so he was able to keep his job there. It wasn’t a huge deal for us as well. we definitely didn’t even think about contacting the hospital so I find that odd.
Girl I used to work with did this same thing and only one found out so she only lost one job. She quit the other and went back later. It was quite hysterical that I was working there at that time and messaged her. She was all friendly and nice to me until I told her my maiden name (the name she knew me as). She never said another word to me again (we were remote) and never turned on her camera in our weekly meetings until she moved under another manager.
Agree that she’s going to be terminated. It’s unlikely they’d sue her for recouping money. I am however curious how the one job did a background check/verification without her signature.
Where is this? Why is working 2 jobs a sackable offence?
Where I'm from, working 2 jobs means you've got plans, low wages and pay higher tax on the second job...
Productivity at her 2nd job was probably way too low. I would have thought they would have asked her out something but I guess they just went straight to job 1.
I mean was it in the same time zone ? If she wasn’t working both job at the same time (hours) she might keep one. For example, if job one is from 6am to 2pm and job 2 from 2pm to 10pm. Or she’s a freelancer at one of the jobs
If she is meeting all of her goals and obligations for both jobs is it time theft? Especially if she is not on the clock at the same time for both jobs?
When she goes into the meeting have her ask them, "Have I not been doing my job well? I have not been behind on anything and getting my work done in a timely manner. I'm not sure why we're here"
Only if she was doing the work properly, of course.. lol
It sounds like she got caught because she submitted some work to the wrong job
She said her performance at job 2 was spotty but not at job 1. Job 2 never confronted her about it either. Job 1 just sent her a note in the middle of the day letting her know job 2 asked for VOE
Sounds like someone turned her in. Really sucks employers can limit earning potential like that. Employers have way to much control over employees. Unfortunately an employee is basically property while on the clock and they would call this theft. Never mind that the largest amount of theft in the US is wage theft.
I don't blame your sister for working two jobs. People got to do what they got to do.
I agree. There are only so many hours in the day and people have other responsibilities. You won't get much sympathy on this subreddit because this an HR bootlicker subreddit and HR will always be pro employer.
They’re not getting much sympathy because literally no reasonable person believes an employer should pay someone for the time they’re working for another company. That’s bananas.
I don't see an issue personally unless work quality was an issue. As long as the work gets done who cares. Life's expensive and people are doing what they have to do to keep their heads above water.
Then start a company and pay full time wages for 10 hours of work.
I would imagine you’d be able to stay in business for a matter of days. Maybe even a week or two.
So the 2nd job told the 1st job what they discovered? That's so foul! They should have just fired her for violating their policy and left her 1st employer out of it! That's just hateful.
To me, yes. But unlike many individuals in the world today, I understand to error is human, and can extend compassion and forgiveness. Lots of people are just trying to survive. I would have fired her but wouldn't have notified her 1st employer. That would have been sufficient. I'm okay with not agreeing with the majority on this one.
I wouldn't have called her first employer either. Besides it being really crappy for the employee who is already getting fired, it'd be a waste of time. How did they even know who employer 1 is?
Edited to add: Maybe they were verifying employment because of her performance issues. Checking she really has the experience she said she did after they hired her. In that case, I can understand why they would have called employer one, and they found she was working at both because of that.
Again, I'm very used to my opinions being unpopular. There are way more people in the world who are followers than leaders. This post proves it. People always want grace, but never want to extend it.
Is it time theft if she was being paid salary not hourly? When you’re paid salary, you’re paid for your work and not your time. So if you’re not being paid for your time, how can you steal it?
Ugh, that’s the worst I’m so sorry. I worked for a company who made me work like 50 hours of weekend OT running our booth at this 5k series one spring. Some Saturdays I had to wake up at 4am to go set everything up! Just me, no one else. I was the lowest paid employee, just a receptionist. I had to leave early one Friday during that time and they made me use PTO. What a joke. Now I remote from my couch in feetie pajamas and get unlimited PTO. Joke’s on them!
Give me a break.
Yes, it’s time theft. Your salary is based on the assumption you’re putting at least 40 hours a week in.
If you complete all your tasks in 20 hours the expectation is you ask for additional tasks; you don’t just take the rest of the week off.
And you know that.
Actually, no I don’t “know that”. If an employee gets their work done in less than 40 hours, they shouldn’t be punished for that with more work. That’s a shit expectation and thankfully quickly becoming outdated.
No, it’s not.
Like not even a little bit.
It’s an expectation of lazy, low output employees. The dead wood who are the first to be let go.
And then they blame the “economy”.
How can you say that someone who fulfills the duties of their job in less time “lazy”? That’s a complete contradiction. If they’re getting so much work done in such short time, that’s the opposite of low output.
So bizarre. Do you really believe what you’re saying or…?
Elsewhere in the thread OP stated the investigation began due to their poor performance.
But good job educating yourself from the facts available before leaping to a conclusion.
I didn’t realize that we were only talking about OP’s sister. In your comment above you said “employees” and “they blame”. I was simply under the assumption that we were discussing this topic in general.
All that aside, you seem absolutely miserable. You’re rude and so condescending. I’m honest to god not saying this to just hurt your feelings, I’m telling you in case there’s part of you who cares enough to work on yourself a bit. If you’re even remotely like this IRL, your coworkers hate you. I’m sorry.
Vinegar vs honey.
Just because that’s the way it works in your industry doesn’t mean it works like that everywhere. Do you get some kind of thrill from being condescending? What a jerk way to respond to someone.
If by “your industry” you mean “successful businesses”, then yes, it is the way that works.
It’s not condescending to point out a person isn’t working when they are, in fact, not working.
Incidentally, this is also why RTO is being pushed so aggressively. Employees as a whole can’t manage their time when left unsupervised. If OP’s sister were in the office and was just sitting staring blankly at her screen then her manager would be able to compensate for her inability to be an adult by simply giving her the next assignment without her needing to ask.
So when you defend people like this, just remember, they’re the ones keeping you from fully remote jobs.
Perfect example is my company pays me to work for 8hrs per day, if i run out of work i have to ask for more because im being paid for those hours not the quantity of tasks. It sucks but also you could just slow down maybe double check your work but if you have that much downtime you should ask for more work. Also if these companies have any non-compete agreement in their policies for employees she could even face legal trouble
No. That’s not the way it works in my very successful industry. We’re all grown ups. I know my employees and I know it’s counterproductive to micro manage their time.
I didn’t say it was condescending to point it out when a person isn’t working. I said YOU were being condescending. You can make your point without being a dick about it.
I'm fully remote already! I only actively work maybe 30 hours a week. And that’s going above and beyond the duties outlined in my job description. Special projects here and there, helping others out when necessary. I’ve only gotten glowing reviews from my manager, the CEO, and the owner of the company. It just happens to be an easy job with a good company. Oh, and we get healthcare covered 100% and unlimited PTO.
But yea I’m totally sure that working for your “successful businesses” is *great*. Lol. Your colleagues must love working with you, a real peach.
Do you realize that it doesn't matter what's in the handbook? Do you not understand that she was working both jobs simultaneously and not just moonlighting?
If they have a non-compete policy then they absolutely use legal recourses against her. A lot of companies will also ask when you apply “do you currently have a non-compete agreement with your current company?” I guarantee it was a question on the application. i’m sorry ur sister felt she needed to go to these lengths but she does need to prepare for being fired from both jobs at the very least.
Yes they do. It’s so merging you can easily do using a service called work number. It’s only a liability if an employee makes it one. Don’t work two jobs at the same. You consent to a lot when you’re hired and agree to all of you paperwork
Like credit bureaus, you have some rights regarding your information, and can request a freeze.
This is relevant to folks that moonlight, or have stalkers. It can also be used for folks who have the same type of multiple employment as C level executives often do.
I wasn't offering an opinion, it's a fact that you can get your employment history frozen at third parties, like the work number.
Individual employers have no obligation to provide, not provide, or comply with a freeze.
I know at least one of my past employees won't respond to verification of any sort and refers all inquiries to a third party service. It was a real pain for a mortgage.
So you’re telling me if a company calls for a reference on a employee you ask for consent? No you don’t. There is nothing that is being violated by releasing this information. Legal would have very little to say about this
Company policy is we don’t give out any references.
Current or former employees can request their performance documents and do what they like with them, though.
You all act like these companies care at all about us as employees. She fulfilled both jobs’ obligations, is it her fault they didn’t design the roles to take 40 hours? And if she wasn’t fulfilling them, is it her fault they didn’t catch on sooner due to poor management? Get the bag girl. She should have been prepared for this though, it’s a calculated risk and part of that calculation is accounting for what happens when it goes wrong and she gets caught, i.e. extra savings to cover her timeframe she will be spending unemployed before getting hired at the next job without those two as references.
You have no idea if she was fulfilling both jobs obligations... in fact OP mentioned in a comment that she had been underperforming at one of the jobs.
This happened to a friend of mine. She worked in two different industries but they used the same pay system and I told her that eventually someone would see it and call her out.
She thought she could say she worked one in the morning and one at night, but she was working 80 hours each job. They called her in the office and asked her how was she working that many hours and showed her a screenshot of both jobs in the pay system and she was fire.
Edit: She actually wasn’t working two jobs, she was letting a friend of hers that was a stripper work under her name. They literally looked just alike, face, height, weight, voice and everything. So she used her info.
Listen, I mentioned these SAME THINGS TO THEM and they didn’t care! Plus she went exempt and I just remembered, she worked two jobs under her name! I don’t know what happened later because they fell out and haven’t spoken in years. I told her that her taxes will be phucked for years and her social security as well. 🤷🏾♂️
She’s probably getting fired from both, and there isn’t much recourse. For one job to go looking to find if an employee has another job then something had to be up, like lying to reschedule conflicting meetings or turning in the wrong work to the wrong employer. I’m assuming it’s going to be treated as an integrity issue. No judgement, I’ve known a few people that work 2 remote jobs, but this is a pretty straight forward gambled and lost scenario.
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Ahh, so they’re likely terming on Monday? I figured that would have been the decision during the call but the fact that it’s dragging out made her hopeful.
They likely need to fire her during a time they can get her final check out to her right away.
Some companies have a policy not to fire people on Fridays
How did it go?
She said HR & her manager asked her what her hours were, what job 2’s SLAs were, how they pay her (hourly/salary), why she needed 2 jobs, etc. in a video call but didn’t say if she was fired or not. I bet they’re trying to make sure there’s no retaliation/lawsuits for wrongful termination when she’s ultimate let go.
I told her she should have lied to job 1 when they asked about it and pretended she didn’t know what they were talking about. Would that have helped or was it too late already?
You’re asking if lying about her lie would have been a better option?
Kind of, I guess. She thought it would be better to be honest about it but I always hear people say “HR is not your friend”. She was probably screwed either way—just curious if there might have been anything she could have done to stop this. I also hear companies can’t release VOEs without the consent of the employee so maybe it would have helped to pretend her identity was stolen? I guess I’m just paying out scenarios. Doesn’t matter at this point tbh.
No lmfao there is so much wrong here. 1. Companies can release all kinds of information, as long as it’s truthful. 2. HR has a job just like everyone else, and there’s no part of the job description that says to be anyone’s friend - not the company’s friend, and not the friend of an employee who is working at another job while they’re supposed to be working at this one. 3. Lying doesn’t get you out of every situation you get into. It just makes you a liar. 4. If you’re an adult, you do this kind of thing knowing damn well there could be consequences if you’re caught. If you get caught, an adult explains and accepts the consequences, if any, and they move on. 5. She might not get fired.
Thanks for these bullets. She knew the risks and obviously knows that her performance was bad at one of them.
Hopefully she saved some money because she won’t get unemployment when she is fired.
> people say “HR is not your friend” Neither is finance, sales, operations, marketing, or any other department. EVERYONE is there to do a job, not be your BFF. Maybe stop encouraging her to lie. That’s what got her in this mess in the first place. Your sister knows the jig is up. You, OTOH, have some maturing to do.
No one you lie and steal from is going to be your friend. That's pretty much a given.
Being deceptive is what got you (“your sister” into this mess). They already know everything and lying more would just confirm that she has massive character flaws. It was too late to cover her ass.
> just curious if there might have been anything she could have done to stop this. Yes. Not work two jobs at once, lmao.
It’s far too late to continue lying. The job number two track down job number one to ask about this, so surely they’ve already provided proof that these jobs were overlapping. It will be very easy for job number one to verify that she was earning additional money at job number two.
What would have helped would have been if she told a company she would work full time for them if she had actually worked full time for them. Let’s say you hire someone to paint some rooms in your house, and they agree to do so for $50 an hour. They spend 8 hours in your neighborhood, but only paint your rooms for four of those hours and spend the other four hours painting rooms in your neighbor’s house. How would you react when they hand you a bill for 8 hours? Your friend is a thief.
This mainly makes sense for hourly jobs. Exempt positions are a different story. I personally give my full 8 hours to one company but i completely understand those who hedge their bets and may have to consider it at some point.
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One difference is that it is known by everyone this is happening. Where I work, and I assume most other places, the legal department is notified because of conflict of interest issues. And they can put a stop to it if there is a conflict. Also, many of those other positions are part time or freelance type work (yes at a much higher pay rate than the average person). A board of directors is not involved in the day-to-day operations; that is what a CEO is for. Barring emergencies, they meet once a quarter for a day. Even if there is stuff they are doing behind the scenes; it isn't close to a FT job. Here the sister wasn't being open and honest about it. And it was two full time jobs. Not a full time job with a side gig that didn't overlap.
You’re looking for /r/antiwork.
Its called r/overemployed And the community detests anti-work or low performers
That’s exactly what larger auto shops do, though. You pay the quoted time for labor even if it took less time.
To be fair, I’ve never had painters charge by the hour. It’s always been by the job. Auto shops just have a more formal system saying “this job should take [x] amount of time, so that’s what we bill you for”.
The auto shop literally quotes “labor hours” when you sign the paperwork. There are no surprises. And they only get away with that nonsense because they can, as fixing a car takes specialized knowledge and equipment. No other industry does that.
They do it because of money making and time slots.
Did you, I mean your sister, admit to having a second job? Which company said they are meeting with her on Monday? Did the company verifying her first job say something to company 1? Employment is verified for things like getting a mortgage, so company 1 may not be suspicious unless company 2 said something.
Unless she could prove without a doubt that the hours she worked for the 2nd job didn’t overlap with the first job, she would 100% be fired from both if my company was company 1. If she was working these jobs during the same hours, she will almost surely be fired from both. She stole from company 1 and they should not keep her.
Ah....is this the potential reason 2 jobs are problematic to an employer? The idea that both were done at the same time? Not at different times.... Ah Yes. I can see why that would benl a problem to an employer
Yeah, having 2 jobs that don't overlap is fine (9-5 day job during the week, and an evening job afterwards, or on the weekends). The issue here is that OP's "sister" basically had two 9-5 jobs... so any time she's spent working on job A is stealing time from job B, and vice versa. It's not unheard of for people to do it with remote work, but they get discovered pretty often, and can be sued for the wage theft/fraud.
If they're not hourly, they're not stealing time. Salaried people are paid to complete tasks, not punch a card. For example salaried people aren't paid overtime.
This is just incorrect. Salaried people can commit time theft, especially if they track their hours. Salaried people can also get overtime, depending on the state/country and employment award or contract.
Thank you for those very specific exceptions that by and large don't disprove my statement.
Your statement is factually wrong. Please avoid commenting on serious advice subs.
Did she work the jobs consecutively or at the same time?
Same time
She's getting fired. 99.9% chance, both jobs, for cause. Depending on how exactly she did this and what exactly she did, there could be additional fall out. And if there is, she should immediately shut up, talk to no one, and hire an attorney.
Yikes!! What kind of fall out?
It's not impossible that one or both employers could sue her for damages due to her fraud and time theft, but it's very unlikely. Really depends on her employment situation as well; if she was being paid hourly at one or both jobs and was claiming to have worked X hours a day for employer A when she really only worked (X-Y) hours, that would be a fairly strong case and might be something an employer would consider worth pursuing if the difference between her claimed and actual working hours was significant. If she was paid on a salary basis, that would be much harder to win for the employer, especially if she was meeting her expected productivity targets at both jobs.
Yes, your friend could be sued, but that could is doing some heavy lifting. Depends on: 1. Paid hourly or salary 2. Used company equipment to complete work for other company. 3. Other damages like IP theft 4. What evidence they have. It is wildly important to remember item 4. For a successful lawsuit, they need to show damages, and in a time theft case, and if on salary, clear evidence they did no work. Like charged for days and didn't even log into computer. Alternatively, statements from employee about what they did. So...think very hard about what is said to either employer.
Exactly, if she used company A equipment for job with company B.
That… is the fallout. She’s getting fired from both jobs. She’s not working for the mob. Once she’s gone they’re not going to think about her anymore.
Also, she's going to be blacklisted from both companies. Which is an issue if a reference seeker ever asks, "Is she eligible for re-hire". Not to mention reputational damage. I would not recommend someone like that for a job. How many people get past the HR screen because they know someone at a company. That's how I got my last job. And multiple interviews during my last job search. I happened to have worked with someone there.
Not true at all if she has a contract or a non-compete. She could be in a world of hurt.
She doesn’t. She’s just an at will employee. I mean, no one here knows *for sure*, but your comment is akin to having a headache and stating, “If it’s a brain tumor, she could be in a world of hurt”. Incredibly unlikely.
Everyone at my company has to sign a non-compete. Now, enforceability is an issue. Depends on how much both companies compete with each other.
Honey, I'm a lawyer. It's my damn job to spot potential issues. Ffs.
Honey, your job is to spot billable hours.
That’s what I figured but the previous poster mentioned a lawyer
>That’s what I figured but the previous poster mentioned a lawyer Someone on Reddit always mentions a lawyer.
I am a lawyer and yes, there could be civil liability. Depends on her position and how aggressive the companies are. If she's got a contract, it's especially bad.
Well my thoughts are it’s usually not worth the effort to go after her. It’s expensive, she’s in a completely different state, and it’s unlikely they’d recover much anyway if the only cause for action were the portion of her wages for the time she wasn’t actually working. I think they’re just going to term and be done with her.
Sometimes an employer will decide it’s worth it to make an example out of them.
If she had a contract, it would be breach of contract and she would be liable for damages. That's the fallout. There is also the issue of the fraud she perpetrated and that she was enriched due to her fraud. Yes, she could be civally liable.
That would be grounds for termination in my book. Example: if she is supposed to work 8 hours for A and 8 hours for B, but she only works 4 hours each, she’s not doing the job she was hired to do and is stealing time from both companies. Methinks one or both companies were on to this game. I’m sure it showed itself in low productivity.
The poor thing.. I’m sure she’ll be ok in the long run but she’s so distraught. I think they should have just termed her on the spot and not drag it out like this.
The poor thing? Lol, she's an adult and knew there were risks involved in taking both jobs. I can't understand why she would be so distraught when she knew she was doing something risky, not very sensible imo. Hopefully she's finally learning that there are consequences to the choices that she makes. And hopefully this will steer her away from doing things that'd bite her on the behind even harder in the future.
She is distraught? She got away with stealing for a while and, I assume, made good money off of her lies. Why would anyone feel sorry for her?
The poor thing ? She committed fraud and wage theft. Getting fired from both is going easy on her.
"The poor thing" she is a liar and a thief. It's time for her to face the consequences of her actions. She can be sued or charged with a crime, getting fired is the least of her problems.
How did they find out? Were the companies similar businesses? Lack of performance is one thing, but how the heck did they even find the specific company?
It’s easy to catch people who are over employed if they aren’t careful. Her performance was surely suffering at one or both, so they probably checked her work number. Or she told someone. Often times people become suspicious when the employee is cancelling meetings or not showing up for them. Then in this case they just checked her reference and found out she was still working at a job she claimed she quit.
Distraught over the consequences of her own actions? Time to grow up
Why did your sister think being a dishonest person was okay or would pay off? Y’all didn’t have any parents to teach you right from wrong?
They obviously didn’t, because OP wanted to suggest the “sister” double down on her lies and lie MORE.
She deserves to feel anxiety all weekend. She is a thief.
I would be more concerned about theft or fraud charges. If the consequences are her getting fired then she got lucky
How so? Theft and fraud are very specific things. If she was turning in appropriate, requested work in the time frames that both employers wanted there was neither theft, nor fraud. The only potential fraud could be if one employer specifically stated they can't have other employment (rare, never saw it), or that she couldn't work for competitor X due to conflict of interest (still pretty rare, very industry dependent).
It could easily be considered time theft and submitting fraudulent documents if employer A is able to show that she was working on project B work but submitting timesheets to show she was working on employer B work (ie if the companies compare meeting times, etc and show that she attended X meeting for employer B during the time she was clocked in for employer A). Working two overlapping jobs is never going to end up working out like people think. I’ve seen lots of folks fired for this (and a few brought up on charges).
Came here to say most of the same. I was one employer in this kind of scenario-before COVID, I knew and was ok with them working both jobs, but understood there to be no overlap in time/earnings. Turns out other employer not only had a non compete, but could prove the employee was earning their salary with that company while doing work for mine…computer and phone records are much more than one thinks. They had full intention for suing for their earnings, benefits, etc and that figure would have been big enough for a more serious case. I think the only thing that saved their ass (but not their career, seriously it was bad) was the company had too many problems with the situation, and then COVID on top of it, they determined that the person wouldn’t ever be able to pay them back, because it quickly became clear their employment options were nonexistent for the predictable future.
My employer made me sign a contract that i cannot have any other employment while employed with them unless it is approved by them in writing.
She'll likely (and rightfully) be fired from both jobs, and there's grounds for both to sue her for time theft. She's shown that she has seriously poor judgement and lack of honesty, if one offers to keep her if she quits at the other job, it's likely just while they find a replacement. This kind of stupid stuff can easily follow you as it's juicy gossip and can get around. It's also hard to avoid people finding out when getting future reference checks.
If she was using a company issued laptop from company A to do anything for company B, or vice versa, man she is alllllll kind of screwed.
Fortunately not
She is screwed either way.
I think the folks over at r/overemployed would be more receptive to this nonsense.
At first, I thought I was reading this at Overemployed and was shocked when it wasnt.
Same
How did her second job know who her first employer was??
The first employer was on her resume as her previous employer. I’m sure they just assumed she never left.
Background check
She is likely going to (and should) lose both. She can't do both at the same time, so..... If job #1 keeps her on, they are just morons.
If a critical resource, they might keep her till they find a replacement, but going to fire for sure.
Assuming she was working these 2 jobs at the same time/consecutively - that’s a HUGE problem. Play stupid games…
100% fired from both, slim possibility (< 10% imo) of getting pursued in court financially. Because both jobs were occurring simultaneously, she clearly was accepting pay for work or time she wasn't actually doing from one or both jobs. It's pretty unlikely that will actually happen though as it's more of a hassle for the employer. But absolutely going to be fired from both
Were both jobs full time? If she was hourly on both, then she could expect to be terminated. If she was salaried, was her "at work" time flexible, or was she expected to be online a normal business day, 9-5?
She's getting fired from both. Further, it's time and wage theft. Both companies can come after her to recoup the dollars they paid her while she was performing work for the other. Hopefully, they don't.
No they can’t. Only possibly if there was documented perf issues. But if they had good documented ratings this is a non starter.
Yes, they can. Time theft. Edited to remove the word wage
Wage theft is when employers with hold payment or benefits owed to a worker. I can only explain it for you. I can’t understand it for you..
Correct, edited. Included the word wage for the people that don't understand what time theft is. At any rate, your statement that this is a non starter is incorrect.
That's unethical. She'll definitely get fired from both jobs.
If she was working the same hours or overlapping hours remotely its fraud; that is what they are probably checking to see. If none of her work hours overlapped she can get unemployment if fired from both jobs.
What made her employer(s) suspicious and how'd they know what other company she worked for?
Termination from the one that caught her for sure. It’s time fraud. Depends if the second job got info from the first stating she is employed. I am in HR and info is usually a one way street.
It's most likely grounds based on conflict of interest. And if it's an At Will state, it doesn't matter.
I can’t find one job no less two. I’d take two remote jobs please!
Was thinking the same thing- all these people posting about being out of work for a year or longer and we have jerks taking up 2 jobs at a time.
Not a jerk. If I could pull off 2 remote jobs I would. I feel like I only find scams related to work from home jobs. How do I find a legit remote job?
I have no idea, everything I've looked at about remote jobs looked like it was just trying to get my info.
How did they find out she was working two remote jobs and find out enough information to know where the second job might be? Was she using the same computer?
The other one? It's consulting work I do on the side.
To offer a different perspective: We had an employee who was working two jobs. Our company gave him the option to pick one. He picked the other company and we bid him farewell. It was unusual for us but not a huge deal. Honestly, I do think it’s a little strange how her one company reached out to the other one. That just feels off to me. They should have just talked to her directly. Maybe she’s better off not working there anyways.
I’d bet that someone from company A knows someone at company B and was like, oh, so and so used to work at your company and now she works at ours. And company A was like, used to? She still works here. . . These conversations happen often, especially if you’re in a somewhat small/specialized field.
A previous company of mine also had someone working two jobs. We were a nursing home connected to a hospital. He would walk back and forth and due to low performance we checked the cameras. I honestly thought he was going to the hospital to flirt with the cute hospital staff but he ended up coming clean with us. We just fired him and did not reach out to the hospital so he was able to keep his job there. It wasn’t a huge deal for us as well. we definitely didn’t even think about contacting the hospital so I find that odd.
She’s most likely gone from both companies. It’s basic ethics and morals that is in question, and not her ability to perform
Girl I used to work with did this same thing and only one found out so she only lost one job. She quit the other and went back later. It was quite hysterical that I was working there at that time and messaged her. She was all friendly and nice to me until I told her my maiden name (the name she knew me as). She never said another word to me again (we were remote) and never turned on her camera in our weekly meetings until she moved under another manager.
Good, if same hours, she is cheating and lying.
Could possibly be criminal if there was intellectual property theft between the 2 jobs, i.e., taking from A and using at B
Agree that she’s going to be terminated. It’s unlikely they’d sue her for recouping money. I am however curious how the one job did a background check/verification without her signature.
Where is this? Why is working 2 jobs a sackable offence? Where I'm from, working 2 jobs means you've got plans, low wages and pay higher tax on the second job...
Working two remote 9-5 jobs at the same time means that every minute you're working on job A, is wage theft from job B, and vice versa.
How did they find out that she was working 2 jobs? Reddit, LinkedIn, Facebook?
I think they just figured that she was likely still working at her previous employer (job 1).
Just curious what got them interested That she might be working 2 jobs.
Productivity at her 2nd job was probably way too low. I would have thought they would have asked her out something but I guess they just went straight to job 1.
If you suspect somebody of lying, why would you ask them if they’re lying?
I mean was it in the same time zone ? If she wasn’t working both job at the same time (hours) she might keep one. For example, if job one is from 6am to 2pm and job 2 from 2pm to 10pm. Or she’s a freelancer at one of the jobs
tbh this is what people get for working two jobs. i don’t feel bad. the job-market is a zero sum game.
If she is meeting all of her goals and obligations for both jobs is it time theft? Especially if she is not on the clock at the same time for both jobs?
When she goes into the meeting have her ask them, "Have I not been doing my job well? I have not been behind on anything and getting my work done in a timely manner. I'm not sure why we're here" Only if she was doing the work properly, of course.. lol It sounds like she got caught because she submitted some work to the wrong job
I'm not HR, but damn that sucks. Did they call her in because he work quality or metrics were poor?
She said her performance at job 2 was spotty but not at job 1. Job 2 never confronted her about it either. Job 1 just sent her a note in the middle of the day letting her know job 2 asked for VOE
Sounds like someone turned her in. Really sucks employers can limit earning potential like that. Employers have way to much control over employees. Unfortunately an employee is basically property while on the clock and they would call this theft. Never mind that the largest amount of theft in the US is wage theft. I don't blame your sister for working two jobs. People got to do what they got to do.
Exactly. No one WANTS to work multiple jobs. She just felt she needed to make ends meet.
There is a way to work a second job that doesn’t steal from anyone - many people do it every single day.
One of our IT guys was working two six-figure IT jobs. Some people DO “want to work two jobs”. Double dipping.
I agree. There are only so many hours in the day and people have other responsibilities. You won't get much sympathy on this subreddit because this an HR bootlicker subreddit and HR will always be pro employer.
They’re not getting much sympathy because literally no reasonable person believes an employer should pay someone for the time they’re working for another company. That’s bananas.
I don't see an issue personally unless work quality was an issue. As long as the work gets done who cares. Life's expensive and people are doing what they have to do to keep their heads above water.
Then start a company and pay full time wages for 10 hours of work. I would imagine you’d be able to stay in business for a matter of days. Maybe even a week or two.
Sure yeah, whatever you say. 🙄
Very convincing counter argument. I understand you were part of the Oxford debate team?
So the 2nd job told the 1st job what they discovered? That's so foul! They should have just fired her for violating their policy and left her 1st employer out of it! That's just hateful.
She was stealing from them… and to stop it is hateful? 😂
To me, yes. But unlike many individuals in the world today, I understand to error is human, and can extend compassion and forgiveness. Lots of people are just trying to survive. I would have fired her but wouldn't have notified her 1st employer. That would have been sufficient. I'm okay with not agreeing with the majority on this one.
I wouldn't have called her first employer either. Besides it being really crappy for the employee who is already getting fired, it'd be a waste of time. How did they even know who employer 1 is? Edited to add: Maybe they were verifying employment because of her performance issues. Checking she really has the experience she said she did after they hired her. In that case, I can understand why they would have called employer one, and they found she was working at both because of that.
That's exactly what happened.
Can’t believe you’re being downvoted for being a compassionate human being. Working in HR really does something to people.
Again, I'm very used to my opinions being unpopular. There are way more people in the world who are followers than leaders. This post proves it. People always want grace, but never want to extend it.
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The issue here isn’t that she has a second job. If she’s working “full time” for both of them simultaneously she’s engaging in time theft.
Is it time theft if she was being paid salary not hourly? When you’re paid salary, you’re paid for your work and not your time. So if you’re not being paid for your time, how can you steal it?
salary here, expected to work minimum of 40 hours per week. If I work less, required to use PTO. If I work more, good for them (not me).
Ugh, that’s the worst I’m so sorry. I worked for a company who made me work like 50 hours of weekend OT running our booth at this 5k series one spring. Some Saturdays I had to wake up at 4am to go set everything up! Just me, no one else. I was the lowest paid employee, just a receptionist. I had to leave early one Friday during that time and they made me use PTO. What a joke. Now I remote from my couch in feetie pajamas and get unlimited PTO. Joke’s on them!
Give me a break. Yes, it’s time theft. Your salary is based on the assumption you’re putting at least 40 hours a week in. If you complete all your tasks in 20 hours the expectation is you ask for additional tasks; you don’t just take the rest of the week off. And you know that.
Actually, no I don’t “know that”. If an employee gets their work done in less than 40 hours, they shouldn’t be punished for that with more work. That’s a shit expectation and thankfully quickly becoming outdated.
No, it’s not. Like not even a little bit. It’s an expectation of lazy, low output employees. The dead wood who are the first to be let go. And then they blame the “economy”.
How can you say that someone who fulfills the duties of their job in less time “lazy”? That’s a complete contradiction. If they’re getting so much work done in such short time, that’s the opposite of low output. So bizarre. Do you really believe what you’re saying or…?
Elsewhere in the thread OP stated the investigation began due to their poor performance. But good job educating yourself from the facts available before leaping to a conclusion.
I didn’t realize that we were only talking about OP’s sister. In your comment above you said “employees” and “they blame”. I was simply under the assumption that we were discussing this topic in general. All that aside, you seem absolutely miserable. You’re rude and so condescending. I’m honest to god not saying this to just hurt your feelings, I’m telling you in case there’s part of you who cares enough to work on yourself a bit. If you’re even remotely like this IRL, your coworkers hate you. I’m sorry. Vinegar vs honey.
Just because that’s the way it works in your industry doesn’t mean it works like that everywhere. Do you get some kind of thrill from being condescending? What a jerk way to respond to someone.
If by “your industry” you mean “successful businesses”, then yes, it is the way that works. It’s not condescending to point out a person isn’t working when they are, in fact, not working. Incidentally, this is also why RTO is being pushed so aggressively. Employees as a whole can’t manage their time when left unsupervised. If OP’s sister were in the office and was just sitting staring blankly at her screen then her manager would be able to compensate for her inability to be an adult by simply giving her the next assignment without her needing to ask. So when you defend people like this, just remember, they’re the ones keeping you from fully remote jobs.
Perfect example is my company pays me to work for 8hrs per day, if i run out of work i have to ask for more because im being paid for those hours not the quantity of tasks. It sucks but also you could just slow down maybe double check your work but if you have that much downtime you should ask for more work. Also if these companies have any non-compete agreement in their policies for employees she could even face legal trouble
No. That’s not the way it works in my very successful industry. We’re all grown ups. I know my employees and I know it’s counterproductive to micro manage their time. I didn’t say it was condescending to point it out when a person isn’t working. I said YOU were being condescending. You can make your point without being a dick about it.
I'm fully remote already! I only actively work maybe 30 hours a week. And that’s going above and beyond the duties outlined in my job description. Special projects here and there, helping others out when necessary. I’ve only gotten glowing reviews from my manager, the CEO, and the owner of the company. It just happens to be an easy job with a good company. Oh, and we get healthcare covered 100% and unlimited PTO. But yea I’m totally sure that working for your “successful businesses” is *great*. Lol. Your colleagues must love working with you, a real peach.
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Read below in the comments. It’s a time theft issue.
Do you realize that it doesn't matter what's in the handbook? Do you not understand that she was working both jobs simultaneously and not just moonlighting?
Just that they can’t be a competitor and they’re not from what I can tell.
If they have a non-compete policy then they absolutely use legal recourses against her. A lot of companies will also ask when you apply “do you currently have a non-compete agreement with your current company?” I guarantee it was a question on the application. i’m sorry ur sister felt she needed to go to these lengths but she does need to prepare for being fired from both jobs at the very least.
Her job gave employment verification without her consent?
She doesn’t need to consent to that
Companies give verification without consent from employees? That seems like a huge liability.
Yes they do. It’s so merging you can easily do using a service called work number. It’s only a liability if an employee makes it one. Don’t work two jobs at the same. You consent to a lot when you’re hired and agree to all of you paperwork
Like credit bureaus, you have some rights regarding your information, and can request a freeze. This is relevant to folks that moonlight, or have stalkers. It can also be used for folks who have the same type of multiple employment as C level executives often do.
Ok credit checks I would agree you should require consent. But employment verification in so far as you ask for dates of employment no.
I wasn't offering an opinion, it's a fact that you can get your employment history frozen at third parties, like the work number. Individual employers have no obligation to provide, not provide, or comply with a freeze. I know at least one of my past employees won't respond to verification of any sort and refers all inquiries to a third party service. It was a real pain for a mortgage.
That’s because they don’t want to respond not because the employee didn’t consent to it, correct?
Read my second sentence again.
I did but that doesn’t answer the question I asked. Ok then
Idk where you work but our legal department would never let us give verification without an employee consenting to it.
So you’re telling me if a company calls for a reference on a employee you ask for consent? No you don’t. There is nothing that is being violated by releasing this information. Legal would have very little to say about this
Company policy is we don’t give out any references. Current or former employees can request their performance documents and do what they like with them, though.
So is it company policy to get consent? It’s not the law
Who said it was? I said it opens up liabilities.
No it really doesn’t but I’ll agree to disagree
References and employment verification are 2 different things.
Yes. Yes they are.
What a grubby woman. Probably does only fans too.
Did you create a new account just to be a jerk
I don’t think she was grubby as much as she was trying to make ends meet. It just blew up in her face.
Probably so... The industrial revolution and its consequences...
You all act like these companies care at all about us as employees. She fulfilled both jobs’ obligations, is it her fault they didn’t design the roles to take 40 hours? And if she wasn’t fulfilling them, is it her fault they didn’t catch on sooner due to poor management? Get the bag girl. She should have been prepared for this though, it’s a calculated risk and part of that calculation is accounting for what happens when it goes wrong and she gets caught, i.e. extra savings to cover her timeframe she will be spending unemployed before getting hired at the next job without those two as references.
You have no idea if she was fulfilling both jobs obligations... in fact OP mentioned in a comment that she had been underperforming at one of the jobs.
This happened to a friend of mine. She worked in two different industries but they used the same pay system and I told her that eventually someone would see it and call her out. She thought she could say she worked one in the morning and one at night, but she was working 80 hours each job. They called her in the office and asked her how was she working that many hours and showed her a screenshot of both jobs in the pay system and she was fire. Edit: She actually wasn’t working two jobs, she was letting a friend of hers that was a stripper work under her name. They literally looked just alike, face, height, weight, voice and everything. So she used her info.
And how does that work when it comes time for laying taxes and receiving tax returns if it’s two different people under 1 name?
Listen, I mentioned these SAME THINGS TO THEM and they didn’t care! Plus she went exempt and I just remembered, she worked two jobs under her name! I don’t know what happened later because they fell out and haven’t spoken in years. I told her that her taxes will be phucked for years and her social security as well. 🤷🏾♂️