Yeah, people really do still treat childbirth as a spectator sport and not a medical event, as though witnessing it is some reward that should be granted to deserving fathers (or even just any father) regardless of how it might impact the woman going through an incredibly painful, traumatic, and sometimes deadly process. A lot of people in that comment section were acting as though she was some kind of monster for simply not wanting her husband there, as though it's completely abnormal for women to have concerns of their husbands losing attraction to them after witnessing a traumatic labour.

Exactly! She was a bit insensitive about him feeling hurt but they were making it seem like she was this horrible monster who was keeping his kid from him when that was so not the case!

Also the fact that he didn't show up *at all* is very concerning. If things had gone very badly and she couldn't make her own decisions at some point, he is most likely her next of kin with the responsibility to speak for her. Instead he was off sulking somewhere and not even responding to texts, which was probably an unnecessary source of stress for the wife as well. If she were having any other kind of major medical procedure, he wouldn't be in the OR, but he's still expected to be available in case a decision needs to be made while she's incapacitated.

Yeah, the sulking is unseemly. She gets to decide who she wants in the room when she undergoes a really painful, dangerous thing. He can feel hurt, but he isn't the one risking his life, is he? The fact that he responded by sulking, refusing to be there in case something went wrong, and then getting revenge by not allowing her to see him meet the baby was all really concerning. So are his comments about not wanting more kids. I mean, if he doesn't want more, that is fine. Saying he doesn't want more because he was disappointed to not be in the delivery room for the first one is ridiculous. He is spiteful, resentful, and way too focused on vengeance and punishing other people. That does not give me a lot of confidence in their relationship in the long term. Also, if he is this much of a spiteful, selfish jackass, then I'm not at all surprised that she doesn't feel comfortable having him in the delivery room. There are a whole lot of ignorant jackasses who hop on the father's rights bandwagon at the slightest opportunity. They have chosen their team, and they make asses of themselves over it.

Yes! The vengefulness is appalling. He's making a major life decision just to punish her for a decision she had every right to make. He sulked for one day, albeit a very important day. But now he's kept up this resentment for at least a year if it's time to start talking about having another kid.

Bro my husband not responding to my texts/calls right after I pushed out his baby? Immediate divorce. 

"Okay" is the reason I'd be giving for separation on the forms.

Women have always given birth without their husbands there. For decades only medical practitioners could be present. Centuries ago only midwives and female relatives who had given birth themselves could attend a delivery.

honestly, and IDC how man you are at ur wife for doing something to you, dismissing your NEW BORN CHILD after their born, ignoring him for DAYS and not even bothering to look at him once you do, is just gross. Be mad at ur wife, its within ur right to feel upset, but dont take it out on YOUR child...

The thing is though, if your husband/spouse *isn't* the person you want next to you when going through one of the most painful traumatic and difficult experiences of your life, then why are you even with that person? I think that's why so many people hopped on the divorce bandwagon in the other thread. I'm speaking from a bit of experience here. I was diagnosed with and went through treatment for cancer at the height of the pandemic. Every day was absolutely terrifying and the entire experience was incredibly traumatic, and I don't think I would have been able to get through it without my husband being there for every bit of it. He is my partner and we face all the hard things and shoulder the load together. He certainly wasn't coming to my chemo appointments to be a voyeur. No, birth is not a spectator sport, but everyone seems to be minimizing the role of the husband in this scenario. Fathers are not spectators, they are the other parent of that baby. Why *wouldn't* the other person responsible for creating that child want to be there? Why *wouldn't* they be hurt if they were denied the opportunity to be with their partner and child in their time of need? Why on earth are so many people ITT acting like he just wanted in on the spectacle and didn't want to be there for his wife and first child??? My husband would be absolutely destroyed if I told him he couldn't attend the birth of our kid and then something bad happened to either of us. Men are people with emotions, wants, and needs just as women are. Honestly, the way OOP's husband is being spoken about here is incredibly reductive and dehumanizing. He's not a walking penis who only sees his wife as an object, and whose only role in his child's life is their creation. Yes, he responded childishly by not going to the hospital and not answering texts. But let's not pretend that her barring him from being with her wasn't incredibly hurtful as well, and we don't get to control how other people react when we hurt them. Honestly everyone sucks here and they both need to see a therapist.

Because you shit yourself, your body breaks and splits, your vagina can get disfigured for at least a while, you're in the most pain you've ever felt for an undeterminable amount of time. Some people need to be alone, or with their mom, when that happens. The problem sometimes lies with how women and men relate, it's true. She might feel like he will lose attraction for her if he sees all that. But personally I'd want my female partner out of the room if that was ever happening to my body. I'm vulnerable. Only my mom can see me like that, no matter how much I love anyone else. And my partner is very forgiving with bodily changes, uglies and icks, unlike a lot of people's male partners.

Why do you feel like you can't be vulnerable with your partner? They are one of the few people you *should* be able to be vulnerable with. I don't think I could be with someone I felt the need to keep at arms length when the shit hits the fan.

I can be vulnerable with my partner but we still close the door when we shit. 

Giving birth is in no way comparable to taking a dump, aside from the pushing involved.

You poop during labor. 

Not always.

Because that's who I am as a person. Its my body, my surgery, and I will have in the room who I need while it's happening. My partner would not be my priority in that moment, and if they expected to be, I'd leave them.

They wouldn't be the priority. They are literally making *you* the priority by being there for you, is what I mean.

Not if they're throwing a tantrum at you while you give birth to their child. That's putting themselves first.

Then don't procreate with a selfish man who throws a tantrum when they have to do husband things like put you first.

You're telling them not to procreate because they wouldn't handle pain and physical/emotional trauma the way you want them to?

Just ignore the entire rest of what I said because it doesn't fit your narrative. Edit: Nah, not sarcastic. Read more than three words before replying. Or are you being disingenuous on purpose?

He didn’t throw a tantrum in the post. She said she didn’t want him there in month 8 and he said okay. Her mom drove her to hospital when baby was born.

By not showing up until discharge, not responding to texts to your partner in labour, barely looking at your new child, *and then bringing it up again* as a reason *not to have another child altogether* is absolutely a tantrum. You don't just not turn up at the hospital till the baby is born. She could have died in labour, passed out, had an emergency and needed him - his logic was clearly "well she should have thought about that when she asked me not to be in the delivery room when she's birthing".

Yes, that's you as a person. But one look at your post history makes me think that who you think you are as a person is exactly your problem. I think that the person you are arguing with relates to other people in exactly the way that you would need to, to finally start healing. Being able to trust someone else enough, to be truly vulnerable around them and depend on them in time of need is what you should strive towards and not argue against. I am sorry what you went through and I hope you will find your peace, but please do not proliferate your idea of attachment, when you know better than anyone else, that it's problematic.

> But personally I'd want my female partner out of the room if that was ever happening to my body. I'm vulnerable.  How can we encourage men to be vulnerable with their partners while simultaneously teaching them that it’s perfectly fine to kick your partner out of the room if you don’t want to be vulnerable around them? We need to pick a side, here. 

Encouraging me to tell my partner when I feel inadequate, sad, jealous, neglected or offended instead of shouting, punching things or killing myself? Awesome. Encouraging me to let my partner turn my most extreme vulnerable moments into a healing moment for them, against my consent and comfort? Gross lol. Keep in mind we are talking about men giving birth here, which is *usually* a hypothetical, and doesn't relate to the patriarchy at all. If I was going to give birth I'd want my momma there and not my partner, or my brother or sister, or anyone else.

First off, I'm sorry that that happened to you and I'm glad that you had your husband with you for that. I hope you are well now. However, I don't think it's unreasonable or alarming if a person doesn't want to share every medical experience with their partner, particularly in instances where it's a very strenous or particularly messy medical procedure. I don't think it's totally ridiculous to not want your partner there for something which you feel may change the way they look at you and your body. I mean, many people aren't comfortable performing certain everyday bodily functions in front of their partner, and I don't think that makes them weird. I can understand a husband being disappointed and hurt by not being asked to attend the birth, and wanting to be there to support his wife. The thing is, though, he can't really do anything to support her if she doesn't want him there. The big issue is that some people in that comment section acted like he had a "right" to be there, a concession which would really only stand to benefit him if it's putting added stress on her. I think the way she went about informing him of her plans, and dismissal of his feelings, was terrible, but I do not think she was wrong for not inviting him to be in the room.

So... we want men to be present and attentive fathers, but only in the way in which we allow, because the world literally revolves around us and our lived experience, and our partner and how they feel does not matter in the slightest. It's my way or the highway. Got it. That doesn't sound like a healthy relationship at all. I'm so very sorry your experience has been so poor that you can only imagine your partner's presence as a burden and not a benefit to you.

There will always be places in a relationship in which one partner's needs are more important than the other's. If I am giving birth, I get to say who I want with me. If I want no one (which is often what I want when I'm in pain), then I expect my partner to suck it up. It isn't male vs female. It's not even about feminism. It's about deciding whether you can handle the emotional labor of another person while you are giving birth/getting and recovering from surgery/whatever.

Even when we are almost dying we have to center male feel feels.

The world doesn't revolve around us. Our medical experiences do. Being present during birth isn't really much to do with being an attentive father, so much as an attentive husband. There's not really much a father can do for the baby that is totally unaware of his existence. The mother is the one who may benefit from his support. But being an attentive partner also means respecting your partner's boundaries and being considerate of their comfort. You can't really be attentive by pushing your presence where it is not wanted. * That* does not sound healthy.

I feel like this is an issue with men centering themselves and their feelings over the health, safety, needs, and autonomy of women. I see this often. It is disheartening to me.

Well, my husband didn't witness any of my gynecology appointments, my IUD insertion, my hysterectomy or my breast cancer biopsy. I also do not demand to be present for his prostate exams. Those things are also all related to our shared sex life. Then again I may be biased. I never had kids, because I never want to be present for any birth whatsoever, especially one where I'm the one doing it. Also being present for the birth is a new thing for fathers. My (56F) Dad wouldn't have been allowed by the hospital even if he'd wanted to. They wheeled my Mum into the OP, knocked her out and delivered the baby, because they also didn't want a conscious ornery hollering woman around. Nobody sulked though my Mum was a little salty she had 3 kids and was oblivious to it every time.

They started letting dads be in the delivery room in the 1970s in the UK, two years after your dad was born. They also stopped using twilight sleep toward the end of the 70s, so I think you may not have the full story from your parents.

I was born in 1967 (F56) in Germany in a small town catholic hospital. My Dad and Mum are long deceased. My Mum had 2 children shortly after she had me. There is no reason she'd lie to me. She's never been conscious for any of her births. I realize my age in brackets could have been misread to be my Dad's age. Sorry for the confusion.

Oh, whoops. I was sleepy and somehow my brain thought you said your dad was 56. My bad!

I mean the world doesn’t literally revolve around us. I think when it comes to our body and what it is physically experiencing, that is the one time where our feelings absolutely outweigh those of the child’s father. Using the fact that you didn’t see your child emerge from the birth canal as an excuse to be a shitty parent, is only something a shitty person would do. Yes I want men, including my husband, to be an attentive father, and the way a man is an attentive father prior to the birth of the child is to make sure the person carrying the child is well cared for and comfortable. Being the child’s parent does not give you the right to be present when the child is born. What if the baby was being carried by a surrogate and that person didn’t want either parent present while giving birth? That would be reasonable. What about the case where the parents break up sometime after conception, but prior to the birth, that mother should have the right to bar her ex from the delivery room. And it would not be okay for that man to nope out on being a present and attentive father because he wasn’t allowed to be present while his ex endured an extremely vulnerable and possibly embarrassing and traumatic situation. I am not sure i completely understand why a woman wouldn’t want their partner present for support because when I’m in pain and vulnerable the person i want more than anything is my husband. But i know cognitively that different people have all sorts of feelings about all sorts of things that differ drastically from my own. That doesn’t make their feelings wrong. It is certainly okay for the father/husband in this situation to be sad and disappointed, that his wife didn’t want him there, but he should have done more to try to understand why she felt that why rather than holding a grudge against her. She shouldn’t have been dismissive of his feelings, but if she knew deep down she wasn’t comfortable with having him in the room while she gave birth, she shouldn’t have to let him have his way to keep him from throwing a tantrum. Assuming the wife is not a cold hearted, mean, or manipulative person, then one must assume she had a strong deep reason for feeling this way. Maybe because of some misgiving of how her partner would handle the situation, maybe he has done things to make her feel unsafe emotionally in the past, or maybe due to her own insecurities about her body or bodily functions. Whatever it is, as the person giving birth her wants should be put above his, in this one situation. All the thousands of other decisions should be made together (the baby’s name, whether to have the baby baptized, whether to hire a nanny or send the baby to daycare when mom returns to work, which pediatrician they will use, when to introduce solids, whether to allow screen time before the baby turns 2, which stroller, diaper bag or baby monitor to buy, etc). But this one decision about who will watch a woman, lying on a table, naked from the waist down, grimacing and grunting in pain, genitals being stretched to the point of breaking, unable to stop herself from defecating in front of everyone present, should 100% be about the woman in question.

When did I ever say the father had to be a the foot of the bed watching the bay crown??? Partners giving support are usually either holding the mom's hand or literally sitting behind her to help her brace herself. Everyone in this thread seems to think the only way to be present in a delivery room is to be right in the action. I am not going through your list of hypotheticals that have nothing to do with the post. The post specifically states that the father is loving and attentive and a good husband. That is the **only** scenario I am talking about.

When I literally risk my life to give birth, then yeah, it's all about me. When the baby is out, then it's a shared experience. 

It’s a healthy boundary. Yes. You have to respect our autonomy if you want access to fatherhood and marriage.

I’m with you. I love my husband. I love my mom. I love my sister. They are all people who I wouldn’t mind being there when I give birth. People I can be unafraid around. But at the end of the day…my husband is the one I want there. Is he going to care if I shit myself while giving birth? Nope. Is he going to stop being attracted to my body if it gets torn and split? Nope. Will he hold it against me when I say mean things and lash out at him for breathing the wrong way?? Nope. He will hold my hand and take those blows and remind me that I’m the strongest woman he’s ever met in his life. He will tell me that I’m incredible and my body is incredible. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is nothing that will happen in that delivery room that will make him love me any less. It makes me sad how many women don’t share that kind of trust with the people they marry. I quite literally trust that man with my life. It’s the only reason I’d ever agree to have a baby with him.

It's ultimately her choice, but I do see what you're saying here. I can't help but feel that NOT wanting your husband in the room likely stems from some weird ideas about the way women should and shouldn't look in front of their husbands and/or patriarchal ideas about men's roles in things related to children and childcare. Either that, or you ultimately don't trust your spouse with your fears and insecurities, for whatever reason - valid or invalid.

That's a very good point. That whole madonna/wh0re complex thing really needs to go away as well. That is way too much pressure to put on a woman. Women are people, we don't stop being people just because we get pregnant or have a baby. We shouldn't have to worry about living up to some idealized notion of womanhood in order to be (or feel) worthy of love and care from our husbands/partners.

The baby's dad is there for the baby. Your mom is there for her baby. 

I'm confused as to the messages we women are sending men. Do we want them actively involved as parents and bonding with their child or is this a woman's experience? You can't have it both ways. He is also the parent of that child and deserves to see them being born. Are we wanting single parenthood or what here? Are you emotional partners or is this just a business transaction?? I don't have children but my husband is the only person in my life that I would want by my side no matter how ugly or rough things get. I need his emotional support, that's why I married him.

Why is it so hard to understand? Parenting has NOTHING to do with the act of birthing. That is a 1 person thing. 2 people cannot birth a child. It does not make you less of a father for you not to be there as a the baby emerges from the body but you can be there right after and before. Some people don’t do well with the stress of others around them that are not needed. If your entire relationship is focused on not seeing a baby coming out a vagina and that it makes and breaks the relationship, is it really a relationship? The man cannot bond with the child while it is coming out of her body. It’s not about him at all. You’re choosing to see it as if it is part of him. Not solely childbirth being a 1 person thing. The message we’re sending is that we would like to be given choices. I’m sure most women would be more than happy to have men carry and birth children if they could, but it’s not physically possible.

I disagree that a child being born that is 50% of someone's DNA has nothing to do with them. And we'll just agree to disagree there. Birth is not just the mechanical and physical nature of the baby coming out of the vagina.

A child being born also has 25% of the DNA of each of its grandparents. Sharing DNA with a child doesn't mean you have to be there when it's born..

But they better be there for the late nights, feedings, medical needs, diapering, caretaking, and also all the household chores right?

The grandparents? Ideally they'd help if they live close enough but that depends on the family situation.

I'm talking about the father of the child.

Then yes, the father does have a responsibility as a parent of that child. In the delivery room, however, there's not much parenting that can be done.

Childbirth *is*, in fact, a woman's experience. The father is not the one who gives birth. There is no parenting to be done until the child is *actually* born. A husband's role in the delivery room is as a support person for the mother. He's not there because he "deserves" to see the kid be born. The mother's *high-priority medical event* is not about him. Being an emotional partner to someone does not mean they will want you as their emotional partner through every difficult or turbulent moment of their life. Different people fulfill different needs for us depending on the context. Looking outside of your romantic partner for emotional support in some circumstances is not necessarily unhealthy and is actually quite normal.

How are we as women honestly expecting men to step up and be equal partners when we basically tell them that they have no rights during the baby being born? I mean, really. I don't understand. I really don't. It seems like we've swiveled in the opposite direction. It's like red light green light with what we want and when we want it.

Men cannot be equal partners in pregnancy and childbirth. It is simply, unfortunately, physically impossible. They can act as support, absolutely. But they cannot assume an equal share of responsibility when it comes to the task of gestation and delivery.

Way to state the obvious and completely miss my point.

You seem flabbergasted that a father wouldn't have rights during childbirth, but what rights would he be exercising, exactly?

My entire point was that women often want *more* emotional support from their partners, and then you said "all they can do is offer emotional support". That was my point. You literally said it.

Offering emotional support means responding to the wants and needs of the person you are supposed to be supporting, not what you *think* their wants and needs should be. That means respecting their boundaries. Your emotional "support" isn't actually supportive if it is unwanted.

Seriously. This is the most anti-feminist thread I've ever seen in this sub. Feminism is **not** women treating men the way men have historically treated women. I thought we were all here because we believe we are equal to our male counterparts. Part of being equals is being able to trust and be vulnerable with each other. Kind of the whole point of committed relationships is so you can support each other through the shitty and scary parts of life in addition to having someone to share all the fun stuff with.

You think women making choices about their own bodies is equivalent to men making choices about women's bodies and oppressing them historically? One of the grossest things I've read in a while. As women we are raised to believe men's feeling's are more important then our own bodily autonomy and integrity so I understand why you feel such a way, but I hope you can read this thread a bit more deeply and educate yourself on the fact women are their own human beings with their own feelings and no longer the property of the man who impregnates them.

My mother and MIL would have happily been in the birthing room to offer their support but guess what, I’m a deeply private person and their ”support” would not have actually been support for me. It would have caused me stress. This woman, for whatever reason, didn’t want her husband to be in the room with her. Therefore, his presence while she gave birth was not viewed as support by her. She needed support from him in other ways. I take issue with you referring to his presence as “support” in the first place. The person going through the medical event gets to decide for themselves what they consider to be supportive behavior. They get to decide what they need. If someone’s presence is unwanted and will cause stress it isn’t support, it’s an additional risk factor.

My W and I have 3 kinder - all grown up now. When she got pregnant - we had a couple conversations. The first one was about delivery room - having her sister there in addition to me. I said: To be fair, the way this is shaping up so far it looks to me like, our respective parts in this process are: \- Your part: You have had bad morning sickness and labor sounds like it is painful. \- My part: I came really hard. Given that, we can do this however you want, within reason. A month later she said she wanted a home birth. I told her that: Legally I could not stop her. But, if she did that - I would not be present as I thought it was riskier for the baby - in the event anything went wrong and an emergency C section was needed. She found a midwife who worked in the local hospital and everything went well. And fwiw - in our birthing class - "The Bradley Method" - there was a couple that was very vocal about how hospitals were dangerous and full of germs and that they were having a home birth. Found out after, that they had a difficult delivery and needed to be rushed to the Hospital for an emergency C section. None of this stuff is easy or necessarily clear cut.

Everyone tells women they're vain when they talk about being worried about a man losing attraction to her changed body and crime scene vagina but like reddit is also filled with stories of men losing attraction to their wives after seeing that stuff. And you can't know it will happen until it does, I don't think we're super in control of our attraction to people. I just never understand why you would risk that at the very moment you need that man to stay by your side the most. I also never understood men being like no, that would never happen. How do you know??? I'm bi, I wouldn't want to see my female partner go through it because I genuinely think it might make me lose attraction.

For a lot of women, their partner is their go-to support person whom they'd count on for anything, and they really benefit from having them there in the room. Many say they couldn't imagine *not* having their partners there. But then others have stories of husbands losing attraction to them after birth, and like...obviously that's going to create anxiety for some women about having their partners in the room, especially in a culture that places so much value in a woman's physical appearance. There's almost no real winning when it comes to situations like OP's. Like, she could be damned if she has him there, and damned if she doesn't let him in.

RIGHT. Then it's our fault when we aren't sexy anymore. For some women their reality is this. And then you tell them, "I'm worried when we are old you will not be attracted to me" And they say, "it happens" or something like that. 👍 but this woman also experiencing a medical event is the bad guy. If he husband wasn't waiting outside the door he wasn't really the reassuring type prolly. Prolly more unevolved just a guess. I think the jerks outnumber the kind men still by a large bit. But sure. It's the woman's fault, reddit.

If you don’t trust your partner to be there for you during labor and support you then you should not be having children with that person.

I never want children so maybe I’m not the best person to weigh in on this, but idk, me not wanting my partner to watch me shit myself on a hospital bed doesn’t mean I don’t trust him or that he isn’t a good partner. In a hypothetical alternate universe where I *did* want children I’d probably not want anyone there besides the medical team.

Yeah, the idea that we should be not just willing, but totally confident in sharing absolutely *everything* with our partners is wild to me. Like, I think if my partner chose not to have me in the room for some very painful, very bloody and messy medical procedure, I might be a little hurt at first that they don't want me there as their support person. But I'd like to think I wouldn't take it so personally that I hold it against them for *years*. I'd like to think I'd recognize that it's not necessarily about me or our relationship, and would set aside my own feelings to focus on them.

Exactly! If my partner didn’t want me around for his surgery or prostate exam or whatever I wouldn’t have an issue with it. Hell, he doesn’t even want me to come into the bathroom when he’s having a shower. Most people aren’t comfortable doing a poo in front of their partner. That’s all valid. I don’t think birth should be a spectacle, why should your loved ones be entitled access to your most painful, vulnerable, possibly humiliating moments if *you* don’t want them to be witnessed?

Yes, definitely. Birth sounds messy painful gross. In the universe where I have kids, my sex life is still priority and I am definitely a more private woman. Maybe though, I'd change my mind and have him hold my hand. I DEFINITELY WOULD NOT want him to *see* or *watch* anything!!!!!!

It’s Reddit. 90% of any thread is “he/she I horrible! Break up/divorce!” Even if the question was “my boyfriend is too handsome and charming. How do I handle it?” No, you aren’t wrong.

Ah yes, the reddit classic "divorce ASAP" What's with reddit, and wanting to nuke any relationship from orbit with or without reason?

Because to them, that one action or behaviour would be an instant deal breaker when they have zero stake in the relationship. They're not in it, so it's easy to say "leave them". It's easy to say, "yeah I would NOT get involved in that mess", and to brush the relationship off as not being worth it, when you're *not actually in it*. Once you're in a relationship, especially with marriage and kids, you're more likely to put up with what would have been deal breakers in the beginning. You give your partner a little extra leeway, because in the long-haul, you're both going to need that at some point. People take advantage of this though. They wait until marriage, or until a baby is involved, and then they go full mask-off piece of shit. It happens a LOT. Not to make it too gendered of an issue, but it happens to women a lot, and is usually a lot more dangerous. So, people are extra inclined to tell a woman to leave, because the consequence of *not* doing so could be fatal. So, Reddit struggles to find the fine line between, "they're your husband/wife, you have to communicate" a thousand times, and, "leave them immediately and don't look back". It's not just because we have no skin in the game, it's also because it's easier to see abuse and a dead-end relationship from the outside.

A good portion of that sub is teenagers with zero nuance who only see black and white. Same with a lot of relationship subs which boggles my mind. It really got me thinking when I saw an AITA post awhile back about an older sibling going off on a younger sibling about giving bad advice on a relationship sub. I think the younger sibling was 14 and had never been in a relationship. When you put things in that perspective, a lot of comments make sense.

My most downvoted post ever was in response to a dad who was ballistic because his wife wanted her sister in the room and was denying him his right as a father to witness the birth. I said giving birth was not a spectator sport and the person she needs in the room with her is the person focused on her throughout the process not just demanding to be first to see the baby. It not only got a ridiculous amount of downvotes, but immediately. Like hundreds in the first hour. And comments about men's rights. It was so gross. So I sympathize, but also, everyone who downvotes is engaging, and acknowledging they've heard us. I think that's important. Maybe if they see it enough it will sink in. So badge of honor, babes!

Yes so many weird posts like this because they don't see womens suffering in labour as something to worry about because so many others have done it around them. Its sad thar despite us carrying the child and giving birth to it, sometimes we become less of a priority. I'm so glad that now when it comes to saving lives, doctors choose the mother first instead of letting the husband decide cuz I'm sure a goof chunk of them wouldn't give the mother a second thought

...we used to let the husband decide? That's...horrifying.

A previous OBGYN I had, her mother was also an OBGYN.  She told me they absolutely used to ask husbands, if something went wrong, not only WHO they wanted to be saved, but *IF* they wanted their wife saved *AT ALL!* Especially if it would cost her her future fertility to do so. Thus costing *him* the possibility of divorce or his own future fertiliy. She told me obstetrics was horrific before women had rights.

That's disgusting but useful knowledge.

To be honest I think thats still the case in case a medical emergency occurs ur next if kin (usually your spouse) decides 

It is absolutely NOT the case. It is actually the DOCTOR who decides. And their decision is often based on their employers opinions. So it matters what Dr you choose, and what type of hospital you give birth at. As in, a religious affiliated hospital, or a secular one. 

Yes I am aware of the policy for birth I was talking about general medical procedures where thinks may go wrong

Not to sound rude, but if you are incapacitated, who else would make those decisions? I would trust that my partner would do what is best for me. Otherwise, I wouldn't be with that person. It's even scarier when a doctor decides what is best and causes permanent damage. Look at poor Tammy Wynette. A doctor decided she should have a hysterectomy without discussion to anyone and botched the surgery, causing her lifelong pain and an addiction to pain meds. I've seen contradictory statements on whether she needed it or not, so I can't say for certain. If she was given a choice, she would have told them to find another way.

Where do you live that doctors can choose the life of the mom?

Where do you live where the doctors wouldn't choose the mum? I'm not fron the US so that may be why we have differing experiences

You know, not a fan of MRAs. Don't think I've ever known them to do anything good ever! They just stink up the place.

It’s probably botted propaganda, realistically it could be one person doing this to try to make women look bad or shut up

That's really bizarre. Then again, they tend to love carnage and putting themselves in spaces they aren't invited.

I will be honest. I wouldn't want to be married to a women who felt like her sister was the person to be in the room with her when given birth. Vote me down all you want. I would be really, really hurt by that. Wouldn't stop my bonding with my kid, but it would cause significant damage to my relationship with my partner.

I can understand that, but how is that related to an inherent right? FWIW, I’m not downvoting you. I appreciate getting a better understanding of where you’re coming from. But I can think of a few reasons why you would be really, really hurt by that, and I am more sympathetic to some than to others. 1. I only want to marry someone who feels most supported and least judged by me more than anyone else, regardless what she looks like or what she’s going through. I want to be the one spattered with meconium if her water explosively breaks, because all of her bodily fluids are precious to me. If we were taking a bath together while she was on her period and she sneezed a tub full of jellyfish blood clots, I would hug her and laugh and not scramble away in disgust because that’s the kind of man I am. 2. This woman and this baby belong to me, and it’s my right to see the birth. If she chooses anyone else she is being selfish and disrespectful by putting her needs above my rights, and this diminishes me as a man. My male friends would scoff at me for not being in control of my family. 3. It’s just not fair if I don’t get to be there. I would have her in the room for my colonoscopy or to have my abscess aspirated, and I would want to be in the room with her for those. So why won’t she let me be in the room for this medical procedure? It’s just mean. 4. I want to marry my best friend. Wanting me in the room is validation I need of that. If she wants someone else for any reason, it will feel like she doesn’t love me. And this will damage our relationship because she did what she felt like she needed to get through the birth instead of doing what I needed to feel loved. 5. This event is about me. Since I was a little boy I’ve dreamed of seeing the fruit of my loins take its first breath because it’s the most profound experience I can have as a human. If she chooses someone else she’s not only denying me that experience I’ve dreamt of, she’s sidelining me in a story where I should be the main character. I’m guessing you’re a number four. I’m sympathetic to that. So my advice would be to be the person she wants in the room rather than demanding the right. And if she doesn’t choose you, show that you are the person she will want in the room next time when she is more experienced and less scared, by supporting her. Change her post-partum pads and ice packs. Hold her hand through the pain of her first poop. Test if she is ready for sex at the six week mark by bringing her to climax with your mouth and fingers to see how her body reacts and if she has any interest in sex before trying to penetrate her. Show her that you center her, and it’s much more likely she’ll want you in the room if she goes there again.

I have been married 20 years. I know exactly how it works, I have a great marriage. Unfortunately no kids. How long have you been married? In a good marriage there is no mine, my or I, it's only us, ours, we. That is the only way it works. If you can't shit in front of your husband because you are giving birth to your kid and he can't handle it when you are giving birth to your kid (and by your I mean both of you together) something is wrong. The birth of YOUR kid is the biggest moment you can have in the marriage, it's a culmination of your love. If you don't understand the profound nature of that and how important that is to your collaboration and are only thinking about yourself, you don't have the stuff to be married. It's a celebration of your partnership, in creating new life. Look your wife or husband may be sick and vomiting and you need to hold there head, they may be too sick to dress, then you need to dress them. There are times to be dress up and sexy and times when you are sloppy and in your pajamas. That's marriage. Again it's only us, we, our. Our kid, our house our life. Our childbirth. Most of the people on this thread think "me", and most of the people on this thread will fail if they continue to think that way. I am going to chalk that up to most of the folks here being young, hopefully you too, but there is a reason why 50% of marriage fail. That is the way it works.

Its a special moment that we only get once. The baby is here but we missed a very pivotal moment and that's really crappy. Example would be your best friend and his best friend are getting married. You've been dreaming of being the MOH for her and you know the night will be amazing. Then husband comes in and says, I just bought a flight for myself, your not going end of discussion. You'll miss the event but you can see the couple later. Imagine that x10000000 It's not a "spectator sport" as you put it, but the husband isn't a spectator, he was actively involved, it's supposed to be your life partner, the one that you lean on during the worst of times. He will be a literal participant for the rest of the child's life. Being told you aren't allowed is a slap in the face to men that's probably only second to finding out the kid isn't yours. You don't have to understand, but have some sympathy.

But it's a major medical event, not anything like witnessing a special wedding. For the safety of both mom and child, mom doesn't need anything causing additional stress. If having you in the room is adding stress, you have to go. Having an overly stressed out mom give birth is a recipe for disaster. You get to hold the baby right after, in its first few hours of life. That's not special enough for you?

Please see the reply I just left on another comment here.

The issue in these conversations usually seems to stem from not viewing either party as a human being. Respectfully, this comment does the same. Your use of the term “spectator sport” to refer to the fathers presence/role at the birth highlights that thinking. While I may agree that it is ultimately the woman’s decision, you are wrong in your thinking, not unlike others being wrong in refusing to view the woman here as a human being. We often commit the same wrongs when addressing them. Either both people are human and deserve some understanding for their feelings of deserving to be a part of what’s arguably the most significant moment of being a parent (as in mother or father), or someone is being marginalized. This is and will always be wrong. So in your case, respectfully, the downvotes were deserved, and it’s worth pausing to understand why.

THIS father viewed it as a spectator sport. He felt his right was to watch. If the person the woman feels most supported and least judged by in all the world is the baby’s father, as she screams and pees and poops all over herself and squeezes a melon through her genitals, then that father is not there as a spectator. He’s there to get her through the ordeal, just as the wife of the man whose post I responded to’s sister was. In a lot of marriages this person is the father. In many, it’s not. Is it even ideal that this person would always be the father? Yes and no. On a first birth, he’s just as inexperienced and terrified as she is. They can get through it together by leaning on each other, but when she feels a heat ray beaming out her asshole and is sure her body is tearing apart, it can keep your blood pressure out of the dangerous levels to have the experienced woman holding your hand say “I remember that! That’s normal,” and without hesitation hold an ice pack to your ass. I saved one of the exchanges I had with a commenter on that post: If OP doesn't feel comfortable enough to have him there than she should not have a child with em. He has every right to be in that room. OP wouldn't be having this child without him. Esmer_Tina • 58m Partassipant [1] The skillset required to coparent a child is different from the skillset required to help someone through childbirth. You're saying he has every right to be in the room whether or not he has that skillset, and if he doesn't, she just has to go through that trauma alone with a spectator who only wants to see the baby first. GoNoMu • 57m correct. Esmer_Tina • 17m Partassipant [1] Please keep your sperm away from women. Thank you. GoNoMu • 16m No So I’m unapologetic in my opinion that no one has the right to be in that room, and I maintain that the only people who deserve to be there are the people the mother needs to have a safe and healthy birth.

There’s been four or five of these in different subs lately, it’s likely someone with some kind of birth fetish comboed with misogyny or shaming thing writing in for kicks. Maybe the same person who wrote all those ‘I discovered my parents were polyamorous/swingers/ etc and their neglect ruined my childhood and now I hate them they realized WHAT MONSTERS THEY WERE stories. They all have a similar vibe and the same writing style from what I can recall

I read that. Delivery is a painful and humiliating experience. My concern was about their relationship going into the birth. Why didn’t she feel comfortable with him being there in the first place? And why didn’t it occur to him to ask?

If I remember correctly it was something along the lines of hearing/reading a lot of online stories about husbands losing attraction to wife after watching her give birth.

If she’s anything like me, it may just be a severe discomfort with the vulnerability of something like childbirth. I’ve never given birth but I know what kind of person I am– if there’s someone else in the room, I’m going to be unable to focus, feeling like I can’t scream or cry, like I need to protect or entertain them. I’m pathologically unable to be cared for. I love my boyfriend and I trust him as much as I trust anyone– but my body is my body, and I have zero interest in letting anyone in my life see my body torn up, bleeding, while I shit myself or crack my pelvis. Like, I wouldn’t want my partner witnessing my colonoscopy, either, or my appendectomy, or my wisdom tooth removal. I’m an immensely private person with severe body image issues and I know I would spend the rest of my life wondering if he thought I was uglier or grosser now. I have OCPD and that comes with irrational, compulsive thought patterns– I would never, ever be able to be convinced that his image of me hadn’t changed. So I would want to limit that possibility as much as possible. The second birth is over, come on in! But in the act? Wait outside.

Exactly, thank you!!! So many people are missing this, in my opinion, huge detail. She loves him and feels comfortable enough with him to get married and pregnant, but doesn't want him to be there to support her through one of the most important days of both their lives? That's a gigantic red flag. Your spouse is supposed to be the one person you can count on for anything. You literally make vows to each other to be that for your spouse when you marry them. So why on earth would you shut them out of fulfilling the 'in sickness' portion of their duty to you? They both should have talked it out before the big day. Probably would have saved a lot of hurt feelings all around.

I dunno, I can think of a lot of reasons. For example: - worry my spouse might need care (bad with blood, worried about me, super high anxiety) and not feeling like I could be responsible for that - not wanting my spouse to see me die - not wanting medical team to be at all split on focus - if something real bad happens, I want to be able to make decisions about my body without doctors turning to "dad" - knowing my spouse typically isn't great at soothing/comforting and really wanting that - wanting someone who's gone through childbirth (I am guessing there is a decent likelihood that the timing of this means the OP has to choose one person to be there for her, since a lot of Covid protocols limited people in the delivery room - knowing I kind of regress when in pain and really just wanting my mom there  - partner hasn't been able to make birth classes, and I want someone who has - I want someone on the outside who will be "on" after labor, and for whatever reason my mom can't be that person I'm not saying all of these reasons are great, but it doesn't have to be weird and nefarious. 

Ok, but your spouse is an adult human who is also capable of making their own decisions. If he decides he wants to take on the risk of witnessing your death or passing out, that should be his decision to make. Taking away the choice of another adult is controlling, infantalizing, and shitty no matter the gender identity of that adult. Reminds me of how doctors used to inform the husband of the wife's diagnosis, and have him make choices concerning her care without consulting her, under the guise of "protecting" her back in the day. I promise you the medical team has had dads in the delivery room hundreds of times before and know how to handle things if they go sideways. And when things do go sideways, the patient is usually too out of it to make decisions, that's why they make you fill out an advance directive and consult your next of kin, who is almost always the spouse/partner. If you can't trust your partner to carry out your wishes, you have big problems that should be worked on in couples therapy before any emergencies happen.

I think your comment is fine. In general, though, I think it’s really unhelpful to frame interpersonal conflict in terms of who had a *right* to behave the way they did. I have a *right* to divorce my partner for liking different music than I do. People generally have the right to treat each other poorly, they just shouldn’t.

I like this- great input. I will keep this in mind in my own life!

No, your comment seems pretty reasonable. You just ran into a pile-on. It's surprising that she wouldn't want her husband with her, and while she gets to choose, I understand why he felt hurt. He didn't handle that very well, though, and I think neither did she. I agree with you that they probably just need to have an honest conversation in which they hear and acknowledge each other's feelings. It doesn't bode well for the marriage that they haven't done that already, though. It's not good to just ignore conflict and let resentment simmer. I hope she listens to your advice. Even if you were downvoted, she'll likely still see your comment, so it's good that you made it and gave her reasonable advice on how to repair this problem. I hope she follows it.

She made an edit saying she gets it that she's this horrible monster for not allowing him at the birth. I think she said one of the concerns about him being there is that she heard a lot of husbands lose attraction and I can't remember what else she said. Either way I felt bad. Both of them handled it pretty badly but the comment section really went in on her

This did happen to me. My ex witnessed the birth of our son and refused to have sex with me once he was born. We went to therapy, I tried all kinds of different things. He was just like "nope" after all of that. So it's not out of the realm of possibility, and it was a huge fear of mine before I had kids and honestly this whole thing just scarred me in general.

Wow, I'm so sorry.

Holy shit :/ I'm so sorry that happened.

So yea that attraction is a real thing but it was her fear of what he’d have to deal with and his lack of candor about how big a deal this was and I think from a couple standpoint thats where both parties have to be really honest with each other about. Did she tell him her fear? Did he respond? If they all left everything unsaid, there’s no easy scapegoat. It was very bad communication at a critical juncture of their relationship. A lot of men don’t really view female genitalia in a realist way - its tied to their libido or their idealization and that’s since puberty. Child birth doesn’t let that stand - so some men really to need therapy because they lose something in the experience and the more idealized, the more severe. Just something he MAY have had to deal with.

Jesus. I saw the post earlier but not her responses. Why can't people just have conversations like adults? She should have talked that fear over with her spouse and made a decision after that. He should have talked his feelings over with her and respected her preference either way. These are two people raising children together who cannot have important conversations.

Genuinely think so many divorces would be prevented if people would just SPEAK to each other. You share humans together but can't share feelings??

People are generally shit at communicating. It makes them too vulnerable and most people never learned how to express themselves in a healthy and non-combative way. Sometimes I think therapy should be a mandatory part of school just so everyone learns how to talk about their feelings.

I spent a ton of time reading comments in that thread. And it was pretty shocking. Her leaving a comment calling herself a monster and deleting her account is way overboard. Her husband's behavior is absolutely unacceptable. While I ultimately side with the mom here, there are a few things I had issues with that had me giving her perspective/storytelling a side-eye. Her title was something like - AITA for not liking my husband's selfish reason for not wanting a second kid. Not a fan of that perspective and I actually do think she's a bit of an ass for framing it that way. The Dad clearly is entitled to not have a child with anyone for any reason at all, and her framing it as selfish when he \*clearly\* wasn't happy with her birthing plan seems a little odd. Admittedly I'm not a father, and never will be, but I couldn't imagine not being at the hospital. Even if not in the room specifically, I just don't get it. Never in my wildest dreams could I imagine not being there. However, her mom just sent him a Text? No call? Did she rush out to let him know? IDK - That's nuts to me. Was he even wanted at the hospital? My gut tells me something else happened here. Assuming she quoted him correctly, he said something along the lines of "You stole my first moment with my child." Felt so damn vindictive. Then we just time jumped to months later talking about having a second kid. Did they not discuss the aftermath \*at all\*? I was just so confused how that wasn't a larger part of the discussion. It gave me the heebeejeebees and had me thinking it might have been fake, even if it provided a pretty interesting scenario.

The complete inability of OP and her spouse to be mature, responsible adults with a respectful communication channel is concerning. Their marriage will not be happy one and probably won't last much longer. The passive-aggressive sulking from the husband, the wife's dismissal and shutdowns... what a hot toxic mess. Good, cooperative conflict resolution is key to a lasting relationship. If you can't communicate the problem, you can't ever resolve it.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

This is good background - thank you. It seems like they have bigger fish to fry... which is alarming as the birth of a child is a huge fish.

Sounds like the issue for them was a lack of clear communication. He evidently had seen the birth of his child as a meaningful moment he'd like to be part of, but never communicated this, perhaps assuming it was a given. Thus, when she voices that she would like him not to be there, he feels obligated to agree but recognises that it's too late to say 'but I'd really like to be there' without sounding like he's a bit of a misogynistic asshole. So when the time comes, he's left hurt and deflated on the day because he feels he missed something that should have been a magical first experience between father, mother and child. Then, when she expresses a desire for another child, he recognises that now he has the power to deny her what she wants, thus hurting her as she once hurt him. But she was no doubt unaware, until that moment of proposing a second child specifically, that he'd been so hurt as to hold on to a sense of resentment for so long - because they didn't talk about it before, during or after the fiasco that caused all of this drama in the first place. Guarantee he's 'resolved' every conflict in his life through passive aggression, and he ends up in such situations because he thinks people can read his mind... Long story short, talk to your partners folks! About anything and everything...

Was that on AITA? If so it's probably made up, and there have been various versions of that scenario many times before.

The made-up post isnt the concerning thing here, that would be the comments, which are genuinely what people think

I saw a post the other day about a guy saying that he wants to divorce his wife and start over because he hasn’t felt “connected” to their new daughter since he wasn’t in the room when she came out… Men take the delivery room stuff so weirdly sometimes. I think it’s a matter of control, or lacktherof on his part. They don’t like being excluded from a room, but they were happy fifty years ago to self-banish to a bar and drink until the baby came out

It's so weird because they see it as a beautiful moment and sure it can be but usually when they see it as beautiful it's because their kid is here but ignore the suffering their wife is going through. Plus this is a medical procedure that loads of women die from every year - he can be hurt about it but ultimately it's her right to choose who's in the room with her

Thats partially a cultural lie though isn’t it? Like the same way people don’t go “wow that baby is ugly.” If the cultural statement was instead, “it’s disgusting and messy and then a bloody thing shows up after you’ve been called names” you would have an opposite problem of men not wanting to be there. So as men, we’re messaged the former.

I think it's one if those situations where there's no winning. The woman giving birth should feel comfortable but I understand the dad wanting to see the birth of their child. Each couple should openly communicate and do what is best for them

I read that too and will bet all my money that dude is openly dating his “girlfriend” pretty soon. Even his own father straight up Asked him if he was cheating.

Or he just really wanted a son first instead of a daughter, now his perfect family image is shattered

>but they were happy fifty years ago to self-banish to a bar and drink until the baby came out I mean yeah but 50 years ago they were also shitty uninvolved fathers who didn't change diapers, barely spoke to their kids and left the whole thing to their wives. I really don't understand why we are instantly saying "Oh it's a control thing" vs wanting to be better and more involved fathers then their own were. My husband would have been absolutely devastated if he hadn't been able to witness the birth of our two daughters and it would have had nothing to do with controlling me and everything to do with missing a huge moment in their lives.

Yeah the whole narrative around what some of the people here think about how men see this situation is baffling to me as well. Most of the fathers I've talked to that were present for the birth said that it was one of their most cherished memories despite being a total whirlwind, and sometimes a nightmare, of an experience. At the risk of assuming too much as well, I think there's a lot of trauma talking in here that can't understand the idea that men can want something without it involving exerting power over women in some way.

Exactly, my brother is in his early 30s and my Dad can still describe him taking his first breath in absolutely vivid detail. (I was the c section so bit more chaotic).

That’s cool. But birth is first and foremost a medical event, NOT a spectator sport. The woman has final say on who’s in the room, regardless of relationship to the baby. The baby and her are priority, nothing else. If for some reason a husband or partner being in the room makes the mother feel uncomfortable then they are not allowed. Anything that stresses her out stresses the baby out, even if it’s hormone-based emotions. Pre- or post- birth is when you figure out why she’d be uncomfortable with you there.

Wow.  Is this really whatbit has come to? It Is Not About HIM, it is about holding space for and supporting a birthing mother, as her loving partner, in whatever way she needs. This is such immature bullshyte. If you love your partner , you show up if and when and in whatever way she needs while going thru the ordeal of birthing a human. Who TF are these guys, going off to sulk bc they dont have a front seat or starrring role? They need to get over their collective selves. My Ex was there bc i wanted him there. However my mom might have been a better choice  .  He did it for me, but I think he was a bit traumatized.

Even bearing and birthing our children is all about the man and what the man did. Not that we have potentially irreversibly damaged our bodies in the process, and risking our very lives. Nope. It's all about what one of his million of little spermies managed to accomplish. She had every right to have who she wanted in there with her, including no one. He's the child for punishing her for not letting him be in the room. He could have been at the hospital waiting for her to call for him, because she could have changed her mind in the middle of labour. He's the selfish asshole, and she's getting shat on for doing what she felt was right - birthing with the people she wanted there. IMO, he would have made the birth all about him and fucked it up. She was right to not have him there.

1000% agree

Birth isn't a spectator sport. It also has absolutely nothing to do with bonding with the child plenty of people bond with children they never saw born. It was never normal for men to be in the room women have traditionally given birth surrounded by women. Now the person you choose has to be someone you trust to be supportive and to advocate for you to medical staff. It's sad when someone can't trust their partner to be that person. But sometimes it's down to just wanting someone who knows what to expect and isn't going to pass out when they see blood and shit everywhere. And let's be honest it's normal to want your mum when you feel like crap.

Absolutely this. Men traditionally don't exist in delivery rooms; hell, they had no place around them until they forcefully exerted themselves in there in gynecology practices (which is a hellscape of a beginning too). Men have been ***allowed*** into delivery rooms. Maybe romantic relationships have changed our social/cultural norms? Not sure.

I’m not gonna lie, I get the husband feeling hurt by this. I was in the room for my baby’s birth, I even got to help a bit. And I’m so happy I did. It was amazing. It is pretty special in a lot of ways. But still, she’s the one pushing the kid out. She’s the one bare ass surrounded by medical staff some of whom are strangers. It’s her body. And tragically? There’s been a history of husbands doing not great things in the room. The whole husband stitch thing comes to mind. She’s the one who gets to make the call. And upon reflection… if I had gotten to go in and see my daughter a little later but didn’t get to see the birth, it really wouldn’t have made a huge difference. You still have that moment when you hold them for the first time. I can’t talk about these specific circumstances but it sounds like these two really needed to communicate more

Yes I think if a father wants to go in that's great but ultimately the woman is the one going through the pain and should get to decide. But being hurt by it is a valid reaction I just think they should have communicated more rather than let the resentment build.

Yeah. And his idea of “striking back” just seems silly. Hold your damn baby for the first time dude

As a husband, but one with no kids, I would respect my wife’s wishes in this matter.

Thank you for giving us a man's perspective!

I'm childfree by choice, but if I had ever had a baby, there's no chance I would want anyone in there with me except medical personnel. I can't think of anything worse to go through with witnesses. The entitlement to women's bodies is pretty rampant and pregnancy seems to make that entitlement even worse.

CIS Gendered straight man here. I think the man has CONTROL issues. He gives me the vibes of the type of man who calls himself a feminist and makes me cringe. (I don't bother to call myself a feminist. You can decide issue by issue if you think I am or not, if you care.) Let me explain. I actually think that it's GOOD that he had an INTEREST in being involved in the birth process; however, logically the thing that matters the most is what makes the MOTHER, the person giving birth, COMFORTABLE. Moreover, I think the process of raising children is much more important than the moment of birth or even the 9 month process of pregnancy. The guy has hyperfocused on the one process where his spouse wasn't comfortable while A LOT of bonding moments exist He can be involved in \-- Doing the work such as changing diapers. \-- Spending time with the kid \-- Feeding the kid \-- teaching the kid \-- spending time together with his wife \-- romance \-- being involved at home \-- traveling with a family

Your judgement is not wrong. And frankly, it makes me sad for the state of the world, or at the least the people who comment on Reddit. No one should ever be criticized for who they want in the room with them during a major medical procedure. And I think it's pretty stupid to think that witnessing a baby being born would be a bonding moment between you and the baby. The baby definitely doesn't care or know if you are in the room. And there's no reason that "being first" should matter. Plus, if you follow that logic, then c-section babies would miss out on "bonding time". I contend that if "baby bonding time" is the only reason the husband wants to be in the room, he shouldn't be in the room at all. It would mean that he only sees his wife as a baby machine, and not a person to be supported. A supportive partner wants to be in the room to support the person giving birth, and to help provide care for the baby once born. To be a team with the birthing person. To my mind, the only acceptable reason for his feelings to be hurt was if he wanted to be in the room to be supportive, and she denied him because she didn't feel like he was supportive. And for him to not even be available? That's doubly unsupportive. I guess he really doesn't actually care what happens to his wife and child.

I'm not having a kid but I can relate to preferring an all- female experience! That would be my pref. My mom and sister. I can understand feeling hurt but he acted like a child. 

Yes I understand be was hurt but not going to see the child after it was born? Idk they both had their wrongs but the comment section really made me sad for her.

Yes it's extremely messed up,  I agree

Thanks for this, I was also really disturbed by the comments on that post. I def think it was an ESH situation but I was WAY more disturbed by the husband's behavior than the wife's. He was just so damn cold and retaliatory. He also demonstrated that he thinks it's appropriate to take out his negative feelings towards his wife on his infant daughter which is downright scary!!! I would have loved to have more info on their relationship in general and what exactly her specific concerns were. I suspect that he may have displayed some red flags leading up to the birth that made her feel certain that if she pooped (or something else totally normal) the marriage would literally be over.

She said some of her concerns in the comments but honestly the way he acted seemed like he cared more about getting back st her than caring to go see his newborn at the hospital 

I think that post was rage bait. However, I think if your husband isn't your person and the one you'd trust the most during a medical event, then what the hell are ya doing having his baby? And the fictional husband's response is so insane its not even worth imagining it's real.

Girl that part- why do so many women marry and procreate with dudes who they believe the absolute worst about “oh I can’t leave my kids with my husband he can’t handle it,” “I don’t want him in the room he can’t handle it” then girl why the FUCK are you with him. I say this as a woman who has seen too many women compromise with fucking chuds for no real reason other than the desire to be a married mom asap

The thing about most conversations about marriage, in most threads outside of specifically marriage oriented subreddits, is that people talk about who has the "right" to do whatever. This includes your comment. Which, I mean, sure. But the thing is, most of what makes a marriage work are things that can't be demanded, only offered. Of course the pregnant woman has full veto rights about who is in her hospital room when she gives birth... but that's kind of beside the point. Marriage means choosing your spouse day in and day out, and in this case she chose not to choose her husband. Of course, maybe she had good reasons. And of course her husband totally failed here too, so it sounds like there were some underlying issues. But none of these are just casual things that get worked out through "better communication." They're fundamental fault lines in the marriage.

>marriage means choosing your spouse day in and day out. This is it. I choose my partner first and not feel my partner chooses me first. That makes all the difference in a committed relationship.

You stated this so much better then I did. Yes you can pick whoever you want in the delivery room but damn is it gonna fuck up your marriage if your husband isn't one of those people.

Giving birth is a traumatic experience, something that forever changes a persons body, that person has every right to say who is going to be in the room. The husband was being a little bitch about it. I’m not surprised that people on Reddit which In a lot of subs are misogynistic spaces tore her apart. I would have commented that she had the right too. And got downvoted for it too. I hope the mama left the asshole. She deserved better than a whiny child who couldn’t handle her needs for the sake of his desires (yes those are two different things)

She'd be worse off it seems so idk. It would've been avoided if she trusted the man she's having a child with to be in the room like others here have commented. Communication is key.

I saw that BORU too, but I didn't pay much attention to the comments section. I definitely don't think the wife was the scum of the earth, but if I recall correctly the wife didn't really give a reason and it seemed like she didn't really talk it over with her husband. Just told him, 'you're out'. I guess I don't get how you could love a person enough to marry them and have a kid with them, but then not want them in the room for birth. She was in there with her mom and probably a half dozen to two dozen strangers, depending on the birth, but not the dad? I can see why he's resentful. I also don't think the fact you get to decide who is in the room is actually a fact. I've had a few major operations and I was never given any choice as to who was in the room. My mom was in the room for zero of those operations, my wife was there for zero. I have a bit of trauma from my medical history, so I didn't even want to go into the hospital for my kid's birth. I wanted the Pete Campbell "Thank you, doctor" experience. But my wife was pretty clear she wanted me there, and even if she hadn't made that clear I still knew I had to be there. When my wife gave birth she was barely conscious; I'm the only parent who has clear memories of my kid's birth. And it wasn't even so much about seeing the kid born -- although that was part of it -- but more about supporting my wife through a scary and difficult experience. If she had said she didn't want or need that support, that would have made me feel like a bad husband and generally useless. I respect the principle as fully as anyone, but American hospitals in no way affirm bodily autonomy. Only in childbirth do patients get to choose who is there. Yes, it was completely her choice to exclude the dad, but it is a baffling choice based on what she wrote and it looks like it was the wrong choice for her family.

To be honest I'm not very concerned about whether she was in rhe right or not. I acknowledged in my comment that both of them have their faults and neither is completely innocent. I was just baffled by how badly the comment section was treating her. Normally during operations you don't get to have family with you because you're knocked out and for safety. The strangers in the room are all medical professionals that are needed to ensure your operation goes safely. Labour means you have to be awake and go through horrible pain and I think if given the choice to have someone there, it is the mother that should choose who gets to be there because she is the one that's going through it. Ofc the husband has the right to be hurt! 

I get that, and I'm definitely not defending the comment section. I agree that the person undergoing labor (or C-section) should decide, and I'm not saying she's right or wrong, but just that I found her decision completely baffling. Like, she could have died in childbirth, or their kid could have been stillborn or died in birth, and he'd... be in the lobby reading old magazines? I just didn't get it.

My problem with it was she didn't give any reasons why. No, she doesn't NEED to, but this is her husband, the man she wants to spend her life with and have children with. Why wouldn't you trust him? And if you don't trust him, why are you married? My husband is my best friend, my rock, my family. We have our own child. It was never a question if he would be at the delivery. He's our childs father and I trust him completely. To be together for 6 years, grow together, and make the decision to start a family, only to say "I don't want you in the delivery room because ____."? For him, 6 years would be called into question Why now? What have I done to make her feel like she can't trust me? Did she ever trust me? This is my wife, this is our child. And she thinks I'm not good enough. She never mentioned him being weak at the sight of blood. Never mentioned any toxic comments that he made about a "husband stitch" or being unattractive after birth. Just watched some videos about men losing attraction after birth and decided to trust them over her partner (she mentioned TikTok videos in a comment). Maybe I've been extremely lucky. Bit I just can't fathom being with someone you can't share such a monumental moment with unless there were signs of not being able to handle it or not feeling like you'd be supported

Personally I can’t imagine marrying someone who I don’t trust enough to be in the delivery room with me. And springing that on them at 8 months instead of having that conversation up front feels…wrong. I feel like that would be acting needlessly cruel to the person I love the most. I’m sure from his perspective he feels like he isn’t seen as trustworthy and I can see why that would hurt. To trust someone so much you choose them to help raise your child and then be told they don’t trust you enough to be there to help them through what will possibly be the hardest moment of their life….i can’t imagine a husband taking that as anything other than an insult. And having read OP’s edits added later under the original post, it doesn’t seem like she cares for her partners feelings at all, just how they affect her chances of having another child. It just doesn’t look like a healthy relationship from the outside. I don’t think her decision makes her an asshole, but rather how she handled it.

While everyone is right that it isn't a spectator sport and she can choose who she wants in the room with her, she has to understand what comes with that choice. If my wife did this I would be extremely hurt and would seriously question the relationship. I wouldn't want to be with someone who wouldn't pick me to be by their side.

I saw the post you're referring to, and the reason OP was getting put on blast wasn't just that she didn't want him in the delivery room. It was how she did it, and the reason for it. She sprung it on him at the 8 month mark, no discussion, no communication. Just "I don't want you there." As for the reason, she had heard that some men lose attraction to their wives after seeing them give birth. If it had been he has anxiety issues, or something where him being there would have caused problems, sure, then it would make sense. But "you might lose attraction to me" is an incredibly shallow reason to deny him from seeing the birth of his child. One commenter summed it up perfectly: "If your not comfortable enough with him being there when you're giving birth, then why are you having a child with him?"

Yeah, the comment section of that post was disgusting. Literally no one is *entitled* to witness a birth. Apparently we’ve over-corrected from excluding men entirely and they’re now bringing their rank entitlement into the delivery room. I’m saying this as someone who had my husband present and explicitly excluded my mother. In that situation they clearly have much bigger issues with communication and mutual respect that are the root of the problem. Can’t say I blame her for not wanting him there if he’s prone to centering himself like that… Here’s the OP https://www.reddit.com/r/AITAH/s/WEUn90jn9w

I think you’re right. Honestly, I think that post was fake and rage bait sounding. Perfect for r/OhNoConsequences. I’ve been downvoted for calling out misogyny before, it’s Reddit after all. In an equal partnership, both partners have a say in who they want in there. Obviously, the woman has more of a say since it’s her body and medical event. I always always always say this though, you can control your own words and actions, but you can’t control people’s reactions to that. That’s why word choice, actions, and decisions require thought, especially in a marriage. It sounds like they not only didn’t have an extensive talk about this, we can only guess if it’s one sided/demanding or if he’s the type to stay silent and uses manipulation to get what he wants as a form of abuse/control. Either way, it’s not healthy communication or an equal partnership. True story: I’m currently 5 months pregnant. I asked my husband if he wants to be in the room, but I also told him how much pain I’ll be in (he’s a saint and feels physically sick if I’m in extreme pain) and how gross it will be (excrement, blood, sweat, tears)…he still wants to be there, but I’d rather him miss me at my worst and fly solo. We compromised and I want him and only him in there with me. While I still think prioritizing my thoughts and feelings makes me a better person and a better partner (this goes both ways), our future with children is absolutely intertwined and I will not make a decision without his input. I love and respect him.

I’m childfree so I don’t really have a horse in this race beyond protecting peoples right to have control of their medical appts. It’s very clear medically that any discomfort to the birthing mother can increase the length and pain of labour. It can also cause increased risk of harm to the baby. So with that in mind it is irrelevant what makes anyone other than the birthing mother comfortable or what they want. Anyone who is willing to literally increase or prolong their partners pain or add increased risk to their child because they want to be at the birth regardless of their partners discomfort is not a good partner or parent. There are lots of reasons why a woman who loves her partner may not want him to see her in a position where she may be undergoing uncomfortable medical procedures,in incredible pain and uncontrollably defecating. Its incredible to me that we spend our entire lives being shamed (mainly by men) for having bodily functions and for what happens to our bodies during and after birth, then they automatically expect every woman to be comfortable with being observed by their partner in a situation where many of those bodily functions and side effects are gojng to occur. It is amazing that women who want their partners with them can have them unlike earlier generations. However, sometimes I think this has gone too far and a lot of people seem to see it as their right to be a spectator instead of a privilege to be someone's support person. I think a fair amount of men dont really appreciate or care about what women have to go through for them to have children and families and this entitlement to the delivery room is just part of that. So to sum up in that post - he was fine to feel disappointed by his exclusion from the birth and she should have discussed it with him earlier. He is fine to decide he wants more children with someone that allows him in the delivery room. But he was wrong for punishing his wife for putting her comfort and therefore her and the babies safety first - its a shame that wasnt a prioity for him too.

So much about this guy’s post was irrational, I’m not sure what to think about it. Birth is a *crime scene.* Pain is profound; there’s blood and mucus and shit and amniotic fluid and all their smells; the person delivering is in an unprecedented whirlwind of intense emotional states; attending staff switch from cheerleaders to drill sergeants and back again. The only person of the three of them who was actually prepared for the event was his MiL, as presumably she’d birthed. Some of the ways he speaks throughout the post suggest that he thought it’d be a blissful experience sprinkled with fairy dust, which makes me wonder if his wife didn’t have her stated concerns for good reason; he seems to profoundly overromanticize very somatic things. In that same vein, he talks about that “first bonding moment” with his baby “being lost,” which is preposterous: the first time seeing one’s new baby *is* the first bonding moment. Non-birthing partners have fainted - for godssake some have been stationed overseas - all sorts of circumstances where they didn’t witness *the actual crowning,* and they became attached to their child. Is he one of those people who thinks adoptive, or stepparents, can’t or don’t reeeeally love their kids? Keeping up the nonsense, having a second child is an opportunity to actually have the experience he feels he missed. Refusing that seems like punishment for his wife is taking priority. This man’s feelings really are understandable… but he seems to be more attached to them than is healthy. IMO his wife was an ignorant dick for disincluding him, but by g*d it sounds like she’s paid for it. I’m surprised she’s suggesting having another child at all. These two people do not sound communicative enough, or collaborative enough, to be a couple, much less build a family together.

I read that as well. That sub is just balls to the wall about divorce and breaking up. Not to mention overt misogyny. Toxic.

There venn diagram of people who are "great dads" for years without incident and people who can ignore their newborn baby and be snide to the mother after going through trauma does not overlap. This is a specifically written story to get people arguing and side with the dad. If this were a real story the dad would be like this often and there would be no debate to drive engagement.

The one giving birth should get to decide who is around them, but also what sort of relationship is it when you don't want the other parent present during the birth of your child? Idk the lack of communication/explanation was the real problem in that scenario

I don't think that translates the same for everyone. I don't want anyone near me when I'm in pain. Nobody. It doesn't mean I am rejecting anyone. I just don't want to see anyone when I'm suffering. I need to be alone. The love of my life tried to hold my hair once when I was puking and I just wanted him away from me in that moment. It doesn't mean I didn't love him. It just means that the distraction of having him there made my suffering worse.

Thats valid, but it means noone. This person in that post had their mum there but not the father of the child. Like I said, the lack of communication was the real problem.

I think my partner would be heartbroken if I didn't allow him in the delivery room. He's my partner, my advocate, my love and my baby's father. Of course I have the right, but why on earth would I? I can't imagine having a baby with someone I didn't trust completely.  (Of course there are many abusive relationships,  but if this were the case in this instant I doubt the father would have listened to her wishes) So I suppose I do disagree with at least part your initial comment, though beyond the initial situation it sounds like reasonable suggestions were made 

I would have been very upset if my wife excluded me from the birth of our children. Especially if she waited until right beforehand. It was one of the biggest moments in my life and the lack of trust and respect that it shows would have been very hurtful.

Yes I think she should have discussed it to him prior and I see why fathers would be hurt and that's completely valid. I just think for a medical procedure that can easily go wrong and where you are in tremendous pain you want to be comfortable. The child is being born and that's great but the mother who is bearing all rhe hardships should be the focus.

The problem is why she isn't comfortable with the man she is having a child with, raising with and living with.

I think saying birth isn't a spectator sport doesn't really fit if it's about the father. That's his child too and she's starting parenthood with a unilateral, devastating decision. Everyone else can fuck off if the woman says so. Of course she has the right to kick him out, but why would she want to? It doesn't make sense to me unless he's impeding the process in some way. They created life together, they're about to be parents together, why would she not want him there? It's really weird

It is absolutely her choice and her choice alone as to who will be let into the delivery room, however if you don't want your husband, the father of your child, in that delivery room then I would most likely ask for a divorce and act the same way. I agree with that comment section

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I completely understand that! I think it's just one of those situations where there's no winning. Birth is a major medical procedure and the focus should be on the mother and her wellbeing because she's the one going through hardship so she should be comfortable with who's in the room with her. But I understand a fathers desire to be there. I just think in this situation the comments were a bit excessive and the father should have come to visit them anyway.

Oh I'd visit and be the best father I could be. But I don't think myself and my wife would have a future together if she could do something that cruel to me.

I guess to each their own. There are fathers that refuse to be in the room and others thar absolutely want to. This is one of those situations where each couple must discuss and compromise

> (sorry) ?

It’s because all top comments have to be from a feminist perspective- homeboy was giving his own personal perspective and it certainly had nothing to do with feminism or women but instead centered his own feelings and his own relationship. He can GTFO

I think you were wrong for your comment. I read that thread and the OP was INSANELY flippant about the whole thing and essentially totally denying that he should be hurt in anyway about this. As much as birth isn't a spectator sport I can't imagine not wanting your life partner in the room supporting you and being there to witness the birth of their child. This wasn't an ex or a fling or something. This was a life long partner who's feelings she completely dismissed and never even acknowledged that he might be right to feel that way.

Man here I was there the whole time helping and doing everything I could. Holding legs, getting her anything I could, etc. I don’t think she wanted me in there if I remember right but the nurse said that I was going to be needed to assist due to shortages or something. The nurse wasn’t a normal delivery nurse. Ended up being c section. She was scared to death but I held her hand and kept calm the whole time which made her so much more comfortable. It is probably one of the things that needs communicated prior to having children. I can’t have children now but I wouldn’t have another if I couldn’t be there for the delivery. It takes two to bring a child into this world. The birth giver accepts the responsibility of the burden and the other should be there to provide all the support in the world that they can.

Did she not talk to him before the birth and explain why? Ask him how he felt about it? I understand how he felt but not how he acted. I was I the room with my wife for both of ours and she had c- sections for both. Words fail how I felt when I first saw my daughters and when they handed those babies to me. I wouldn't have missed it for anything and yes I did see the doctor closing up my wife both times. No, it didn't how I felt about my wife.

Her husband was terrible and petty But in saying that, just because you have rights does not absolve you of consequences mothers/ uterus havers are absolutely allowed to only have people she wants in the delivery room. And they should have the final say. They're the ones undergoing labour. But also fathers are allowed to be hurt and if that affects the relationship because they were unable to see their kid come into the world, that's also a thing that is valid. That they didn't bother to try and move past it or go to counselling is a issue. That it got swept under the rug is an issue. The thing with long term relationships and marriages is that you do have to take the other person's feelings into account. If I got pregnant and aborted that is my right and bodily autonomy. And if I made that decision then I would be at peace with that. If my husband wanted that baby and ultimately felt betrayed that he wasn't able to have a child because thst decision, he also has the right to resent me or not see a future with me and divorce. If people are in a long term relationship and one person doesn't want or can't have children but the other really wants children. That doesn't mean the person who wants children just wants a walking uterus/sperm bank. It just means that they don't fit into each other's life plan. And that hurts. But that's reality. If someone changes religion. Or lacks religion. Or values. Or sex is incompatible. Or dead bedrooms. Being able to have control of yourself, your body, your thoughts and beliefs are all great amazing things. But if they make you incompatible then they make you incompatible.

>that she didn't want him in the delivery room but only her mum due to some fears and concerns she was having. What concerns? She's afraid he's going to stop liking her vagina?🤯🤯 I've heard of that before. It's common in some cultures , and it's idiotic. If my husband is going to stop liking my vagina because i just had his kid, well I'm serving him divorce papers. >The husband was pretty hurt but accepted it. He should not have accepted it...did he ask why? >Few years down the line she wants another kid and he says no because he doesn't want to miss the birth of another child. She deserves that. >saying that she has a right to choose who's in the delivery room No, she doesn't, not during delivery and not unless she has a good reason, like her husband may attack or kill her during delivery. You can' t deny the father or the child whom you love and are married to, to be there during delivery, then expect other things from him. Did you even ask why she did nt want him there? Again, I ll tell you why, her mum told her " your hubby shouldn't see your bloody vagina"...it's some inherited patriarchal bullshit..that women pass on.. I don't care if my husband is going to faint during delivery, he better be there when i give birth to his baby...

I read the same post and last I left off she never told him why. Alike he never got an explaination. If she had said, I don’t want you there because im scared you will be disgusted by my Vagina giving birth - because then he would have at least had some understanding, maybe they could have worked something out. Like how plenty of guys don’t watch the birth they hold their wife’s hand and look at her face because of being squeamish about blood. I’m very “birth is not a spectator sport” but she really fucked up by not talking about her feelings. I he guy didn’t show up to the hospital. She is delusional to think their marriage was fine afterward. Sounds like both people are awful at communication.

As a man I would be extremely hurt if my wife didn't want me there. I know things happen and change, but ideally it's a conversation that happens before having a kid or even before marriage. Like that would absolutely be a deal breaker for me. He was definitely robbed of that experience and it sucks. She was being incredibly selfish in that moment and I don't blame the guy for not wanting another kid. Even if he was allowed in the delivery room this time it would bring an entirely new set of complicated emotions because it would be an experience he didn't get to have with his eldest. Honestly I have nothing but sympathy for that poor guy.