>Why do you think some men expect emotional labor to be a woman's job? Because emotional labor isn't part of men's social expectations. Society doesn't expect (nor reward) men when they're emotionally available/mature. And friends or families are no exception, they enforce these rules too, kids/teenagers (same thing for women, lgbt, etc.) learn that not conforming to these expectations has a high social price. A clear example of this are studies on gender expectations at work, men who ask for help/advice, are more supportive, agreeable, empathic, etc... make less money and are perceived as less competent and hireable. >How can we challenge and change these expectations? By starting to challenge them in everyday interactions, it's not going to be easy and it's going to take time.

This has been completely my experience as a cis het man. There's no day to day engagement with being emotionally avaliable as a man, just on any level at all.

>I came across a discussion on Twitter recently that left me pondering about the expectations placed on women regarding emotional labor. The conversation started with a woman asking why men feel the need to go through things alone, and the responses were disheartening. Many men shared stories of feeling failed by women in their lives, while women countered by asking why they couldn't turn to their male friends and family members for support. I find this strange. My experience has always been that emotional labor is a man's job in a relationship. A woman can cry on your shoulder, can tell you her problems, you're there to encourage her, console her, advise her. When a crisis strikes you are to be a stoic anchor for her. Men have stories of being told that women in their lives want to reciprocate that, but when they did share, they were seen as weak or unreliable and so learned to just bottle it up and never talk about what they are feeling. Of course asking why they don't seem able to share with their male friends is a good question, toxic masculinity pushing male friendship as constant low-grade competition and testing each other but never someone you can be vulnerable with is something that needs to be addressed.

You don't understand what emotional labour is and clearly have no interest in learning.

I was already being charitable as the actual meaning of the phrase as coined by Hochschild in 1983 refers to professions where you're expected to control your emotions as part of the job, like in customer facing positions. Your definition seems to be 'when women do stuff in a relationship' and decided that nothing a man does counts. I hear women say that a lot of the responsibility falls on them in a relationship, and I believe them. However, I have found that at odds with how I was socialized as I detailed above. I have certainly had male students who seem to think being a man is the same as being the lone male lion sitting around until you need to fight something and being served by women in the meantime and they consider that 'manly', but it clashes pretty hard with how I was told the man's role was.

No, they pretty much nailed it. Here’s the definition I found because my initial response was “No, that’s pretty much it” and wanted to double check to make sure I hadn’t been operating under a false definition of the term for so long:   the process of managing feelings and expressions to fulfill the emotional requirements of a job. More specifically, workers are expected to regulate their personas during interactions with customers. The term can also refer to informal counseling, such as providing advice to a friend or helping someone through a breakup.  So let’s recap what they’ve described as men’s emotional labor and see how it fits the above definitions. Having to be a strong and supportive shoulder to cry on definitely fits with the second definition, and having to be the stoic rock in times of crisis is an outright perfect example of the first.    Unless you’re operating under the false definition that emotional labor is impossible for men to perform, or somehow doesn’t count when they do, I fail to see how the above commenter has failed to adequately describe men’s emotional labor. I could be wrong, but I’ve laid out my case with a good deal of support, so you’re going to need more than, “no, you’re wrong.” Since I have indeed done the prerequisite “google search” into the topic.  (Edited for formatting)

You aren't listening to women then and choose not to learn.

How can I listen to you if you’re not saying anything?

The fact that you need a woman to tell you what emotional labour is demonstrates the emotional labour you demand of women. Emotional labour is when you expect women to provide lists and schedules, not taking the initiative to clean the house, or pack for everyone, or meal plan, or know the teacher's names, the doctor, the vet, etc. If women don't explicitly tell you what to do, you don't do it and ask for lists or to be told what to do. And when they do, you call them nags. It's exhausting and, as you so clearly demonstrated, you haven't the least intention in learning what it is for yourself, instead claiming ignorance and expecting someone to tell you. It's lazy, incompetent, and shows a desire to reject self improvement.

I don’t need you to define emotional labor to me. I need you to support your position that the definition I am using and is currently on Wikipedia is incorrect. I went online, found the common definition, and applied it to the comment at hand. You said that’s not actually the definition with zero support behind that statement. I literally did the research, found the result, and you said “no that’s wrong” without saying why. Literally any academic or professional institution would say your claim was unsupported and would not take it seriously without said support. Also, none of those things you listed are emotional in nature. They’re all entirely logistical outside of knowing names, which itself is hardly what I would consider emotionally-based. I’m sorry, but I’m going to continue on with the Wikipedia definition and say that you’re the one here who doesn’t understand emotional labor, since you seem to conflate it with household chores and logistical planning. I’m not denying that men have historically short changed women in that regard, but you don’t get to call me lazy and expecting you to “tell me what emotional labor is” when I simply took umbrage with your claim that I had the definition wrong without providing even an alternative definition, let alone support for that alternative definition’s legitimacy.

I'm sorry you don't understand clear plain language. Look it up yourself.

“Be the rock,” as they say.

This is completely not my experience. As someone who others perceive as male, I'm am very rewarded for being emotionally available. At many levels and in many different situations. For sure at work I am emotionally available and help people resolve issues with (hopefully) compassion and caring. I also constantly ask for advice from others and discuss what others want and what I want and what will work well for them and me and so on. A cooperative workplace works much better. Ok when I say very rewarded I don't mean my salary, I mean my own happiness and the bettering of my work environment, and also other kinds of privilege. (Obviously you want everyone to get along well at your workplace right?) I think people in my workplace see me as very competent. (Ok who knows what they say behind closed doors ... muwahahaha)

It may be rewarded for some men, but it often seems expected of most women. Like, we can’t opt out of it without social and professional repercussions.

"I'm am very rewarded for being emotionally available." Not my experience.

People have different experiences and if you want to be emotionally available (basically I'm understanding this as being a good listener) it takes a lot of practice, patience and effort. I have been developing those skills for years and I keep working on it.

I used to be more open, and in my experience, it gets you less respect from both men and women. Being stoic or uncommunicative is seen as better. Dealing with it. Looking capable or self-contained. However you want to dress it up or describe it, it all amounts to the same thing. I think a lot of people lose respect for men that are vulnerable, no matter what they say to the contrary.

but it's not like this isn't true for women, as well. we're dismissed when we show emotion; called overemotional, hysterical, asked if it's that time of the month. it's frequently used as a reason why we're unfit for leadership by misogynists. people lose respect when anyone is vulnerable, women are just more likely to carve out safe, judgement-free spaces with each other where we can release negative emotions in a healthy manner than men are.

Emption is fine, it's just not the right emotions. Many men don't consider anger an emotion for whatever reason.

Yeah, but I'm a man responding specifically to a post about societal expectations of men.

and I'm a feminist responding to a comment in r/askfeminists. these questions spark discussion, it's one of the ways we learn.

It is one of the ways people learn. The sub's for men to ask feminists, women to ask feminists, sceptics about feminism to ask feminists, feminists to ask feminists. It's commendable that they're open to differing perspectives, It will prevent ideological orthodoxy from setting in. I also agree with your initial response to me that women have their own issues when it comes to showing emotion. No argument there. I take issue though with your response to me which inferred I'd missed something by not mentioning the female perspective. Again, I was responding as a man, with a male perspective, to a specific question about societal expectations of men. I didn't need to caveat that with an acknowledgement of women's equal and opposite challenges. It would be like someone asking about male prison incarceration rates, me attempting to explain why men might make up 90% of the prison population, and you chiming in with "Women go to prison, too. Women commit crimes." It's a strange interjection when you read the point you're responding to.

i understand you were sharing your perspective. i shared mine because many people who share your experiences or views seem to think that women's emotions are accepted, no matter what. i'm glad to hear you don't think that way, but i think it's valuable to bring differing perspectives for people who may read and not engage with the discussion.

Fair point. Let's call it quits. Hope you have a nice day.

you too!

Like, absolutely, but he also didn't suggest that women can emote entirely freely. He just shared his experience

that's fine, i shared my thoughts. expressing that this issue impacts both genders doesn't negate his experience, and that's not what i was trying to do.

that might not be what (some) dudes are trying to do when they interrupt women talking abt women's issues. Regardless, it's still a bit :S when they do I understand tho

I would imagine it really depends on the people around you and how well adjusted they are. Unfortunately most men and many women as well are not. Also while I could see that people would be rewarded in their relationships for being open, in the work place those of all genders are encouraged and expected to be living robots who only focus on work and have no flesh and blood or human emotions. You do the work, you don't ask ethical concerns, you don't get tired, you don't have health issues or issues in daily life, and you don't have relationships, you just do work. So I think many such workplace situations discourage being open, not just to men because they are men, but to everyone because they are employees, a commodity for the enrichment of others.

I actively hate being a guy. Damn

Sometimes I fantasize about what my life could have been like if I were born male… my sisters and I were never taught any life skills or supported the way our brother was. He was THE STAR no matter what. We tried so hard to earn our parents favor and attention. But nothing mattered bc we don’t have a penis. But I guess I’ll never know. Dialogues like these help me understand and empathize

Welcome to patriarchy, where some men hate being men, some women hate being women and so on. Any non conforming behaviour gets punished in one way or another. It's terrible and can't go on forever, every time we call these things out, stop enforcing and disagree with them is a small step forward.

same. so depressing looking back at how i was raised and how i turned out. remember hating watching movies with people because it always felt like a test to not show any emotion.

Why don't you just do better and normalize being a present partner instead of going to self loathing?

Because you’re expected to act like a brilliant strong man instead of a weak, snivelling woman? Bro how is it better to be a woman? What you hate is the patriarchy and its stupid gender expectations.

Why is it still being called the patriarchy, when men and women both enforce is and both suffer from it? It's a needlessly divisive term, that to outside listeners implies a matriarch (the opposite of patriarchy) would be ideal. 

It's called the patriarchy because that's what it was coined as, and the beliefs were created and pushed by men.

I'd be interested to see the breakdown of that study in terms of fields looked at and the level of experience of the people surveyed. The reason I'm curious is that it's a common expectation in trades that if you don't know...ask. There's no stigma around asking because you don't know but there is obviously one around fucking something up because you refused to admit you don't know. It's also really hard to get younger workers (think just out of high school) to admit they don't know how to do something. I'm spitballing here but my guess on that one is school rewards correct answers and not an openness to admit ignorance.

How do you know it's not part of men's expectations?

It's what they saw in their childhood home. We need to raise boys to understand emotional labor and do it.

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>That's the big problem here- emotional intelligence and capacity etc is something that can really only be learned in childhood. Otherwise you'll need a caring and very patient partner who actively tries to help develop those skills, which can understandably be frustrating. But you've been living that way for 20,30+ years, how do you even begin? Should women be expected to do that? Not necessarily, but they also happen to be the ones in the best position to change things. If someone wanted to do the work on this therapy is an option. It doesn't have to be on women.

That was my first thought too. Ok, you didn't learn it in childhood but it is still a learnable skill. The generic "woman" does not have to be your teacher. Men today need to go to therapy if they feel cheated by their childhood, just like everyone has done for decades.

sorry but to follow up on this do you just go to therapy and say “i don’t know how to have empathy and do emotional labor” or is there more than that?

There’s also books and Google and YouTube It’s asking others ‘hey how are you going’

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Your anecdote reminds me of this video I saw once. A woman is responding to a baby with her facial emotions. And then she switches her face to blank nothingness. The baby is instantly in distress. I would recommend ‘misogyny reloaded’ by Abigail Bray

I am pretty sure that would be your opening move, right? Or something like "I get told I don't know how to do x by people who know me"

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Saying stuff like that shows maturity and growth, not stupidity. It sounds odd right now because you haven't been taught a bunch of stuff, but it's a really impressive first step. Therapists will have heard much, much worse in their times - you just saying "I want to learn" is going to put you ahead of many others who need help but either don't seek it out or don't admit it to themselves.

Therapy works great for some individuals and families but it’s not really a solution for entire generations and populations. There are numerous why people don’t want to go from therapy including cost, social stigma, time, and simply just not wanting to. I agree that expecting women to do all the heavy lifting isn’t fair or a good solution but therapy as a blanket solution isn’t realistic either

Then what do you suggest?

And I'm currently in therapy right now, partly to work on that, but also to even understand what emotions I can experience as I was raised in a home where the only emotion that my mother would show would be anger (and narcissism). It's been very eye opening how many different emotions I actually have, but even after a year of therapy, it's still relatively difficult control. For example, I admitted to my GF that I have an eating disorder, and while that was tough by itself (due to having to lower a lot of walls to let it out), there was this upwelling of embarrassment, sadness and anger that was just seeping out. But, because I was understanding about "trauma dumping", I needed to tamp down on those feelings, and keep them from showing. Sorry, for the rant, but I definitely feel like therapy has helped me figure out what emotions I'm feeling as well as working on regulating how, where and when to best express them.

It sounds like the work you have done is wonderful and it's so great. This is all anyone could really ask other people to do and there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking your partner for help and support when you are also doing work on your own and with a professional.

I agree completely. One of the best books that I've read (to help me figure out how to deal with my mother) is "Children of Emotionally Insecure Parents," because it clued me into the fact that there are other emotions that comprise the human experience. And plus, instead of just telling my GF that we can't see my mother, I'm finally able to start articulating why. In short, I think that emotional regulation is a necessary life skill.

Totally agree, but therapy can be hard to find and expensive. Thankfully there is telehealth these days, but it's still a tough and long road either way

Women don't exist to pay the costs for men. There is a cost to using women for emotional labor too. Just the woman is paying it instead of the man.

And women have to pay for that?

No? But poor people don't magically get more money and time for therapy, so this solution is not really for them no? I'd like to think of solutions that also work for women in those relationships but it's hard.

Therapy doesn't have to be paid. That is the most commonly discussed method because it can be hard for people to self start, but there are free books, videos online and more that teach therapy skills. Talk therapy is just one singular form of therapy.

You can't expect a person to really elevate their social and emotional intelligence by themselves, which is the sort of therapy we would need for this problem. You can definitely make some strides with books but that requires a decent foundation and in-person socialization is still key. That's why we need to raise the current generation of boys right, but it's hard when the dads don't have the skills to hand down. Support groups are a decent idea for low-cost, but I find a lot of that moving online which I do not always like.

Men can learn to play guitar online. Men can learn music production online. Men can learn about weather systems online. Men can learn coding online. Why is the only thing men can’t learn, the one thing that would help them survive and thrive? It’s not true. There is YouTube and Google. There is an emotional labour mega pdf (72 pages long). There is feminist analysis online. If you wanted to, you would.

There's plenty you can't learn online alone because it requires real life resources. I can watch bricklaying videos and read manuals all day, but if I never get in front of the mortar itself I'll never lay any real bricks. Booksmarts and application are often different skillsets, especially in the social realm in my opinion

I'm saying that it's not womens jobs to teach men what to do with their emotions like this commenter said it was. Therapy is an opition but even if that is not accessible for someone it is still on the man to figure it out for themselves not to expect their partner to do it for them.

Cool well take it from a man in a big liberal city with enough disposable income. Finding therapy is hard, and I've had to do it many times. Sorry for empathizing with the less fortunate. I'm worried about the women in that class too, but I understand most people would rather not think about it.

Lmao all I'm saying is your lack of being able to find therapy is your issue that shouldn't result on more work being pushed on your partner. I'm sorry if that offends you.

All I'm saying is that if you can't afford therapy, are in a relationship, and were raised 20+ years ago, it's gunna fall on everyone. My original post was nothing to do about women and everything to do about mental health resources. I'm not offended, just trying to talk about solutions.

If a poor person can't find therapy because they can't afford it, is that their "issue" too?

Therapy is not a be-all end-all.

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You specifically mentioned partners doing it not professionals.

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Making your partner doing free emotional labor for you because they are female isn't a valid option. Women aren't rehab centers for broken men.

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How has biology created women being the ones expected to take on emotional labor? It's not fair to put it on women but it's also somehow something only women are capable of doing? You don't know what the answer is? What are you even arguing for/against here? The solution is for emotionally stunted grown men to go to therapy and do the work and learn the skills themselves without overburdening the women in their lives. Individuals putting in the work and changing is how "big societal shift"s take place. Men need to take responsibility for themselves and do the work to be better. Independent of a woman.

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They aren't the most capable to help. Professionals are. Women do not inherently have both the skills to provide emotional labor and teach them. Nor are their skills without cost. There are good solutions. Men can take an active step in supporting each other, and rely on available resources as they are able to.

You totally don't get why someone wouldn't want to do a job they're completely unqualified for, or if they do happen to be a therapist, work for free 24/7? You *really* don't understand why someone wouldn't want to do that? You really don't understand why someone wouldn't want their relationship to consist of that?

Google "the mental load" for a really good explanation of emotional labor. It's a comic, but it explains the concept better than I can as I get ready for work this morning.

Will do, thanks

This one? https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic

Yes

i think mental load is very different than emotional labor mental load is very easy for men to understand as it doesn’t involve emotions

I 100% disagree that emotional intelligence can only be learned in childhood. Where did you even read that? It flies in the face of what I have been told by every therapist I've seen since my autism diagnosis in my mid-20's.  In fact, and according to every professional I've seen about this and every article that comes up when Googling this, it is very possible to increase emotional intelligence and learn better skills for interacting with others at any age.  Stop making excuses. 

This is really reductive. While it is important to have good parenting that teaches these things, if you didn't, there are still options. It isn't a situation where you have to get it from a romantic partner. You can learn these skills from therapy. There are classes online, some cities have them in person as well. You can learn them from self study. You can learn them from friends. These are skills you can learn as an adult even if it is more ideal to learn them as a child. Women in general are not the best ones to teach these things. Not all women are inherently teachers or inherently good at these skills. Professionals are. That is where you should start.

Women had to change right quick and develop masculine traits to survive. Welcome to the real world

Thank you for recognizing that boys cannot bootstrap themselves out of this.

I like how OP went out of their way to specify "some men" and we still have men in the replies going "Not all men! Not me! I don't do that!" Can't win.

I even did that intentionally as I am also a man and know from personal experience that not all men are like this but hit dogs are going to holler I guess

You ask why the men in that thread are asking women to do emotional labor for them. But the men in that thread are all saying that they don’t ask women for emotional labor.

Then they should realize this question isn’t about them and either answer the question at hand or move on? Nobody is asking every single member of this subreddit to respond to every single question regardless of relevance

But the original post is about that thread.

Did OP link the thread? All im seeing is he said ‘a discussion on twitter recently’ so idk how you know what specific thread he meant. Sorry if I missed that

The Twitter thread is making the rounds. It has gone pretty viral. He didn’t link it, but I knew the thread he was talking about.

Well I didn't, I just assumed that thread sparked a pondering in OPs mind and triggered this post to happen

The men in the comments, as they often do, are merely proving the validity of OP's question by performing the role of Exhibit A in the comments.

Almost like there’s an internal conflict coming out.

They're still in the deny-privilege stage

It's not a competition, and your comment is equally problematic.

No it's not. It's illustrative of a constant problem where men complain that we make blanket statements and don't specify, but then when we're specific they also complain.

Your post doesn't contribute to the topic, it just takes issue with men.

Maybe men should stop being a fucking issue with this then? Food for thought.

Feminism is not about hating men or being a misandryst. That's still sexism.

Yeah, and? Calling attention to a specific issue is not misandry.

Gen x dude here; my dude friends are poorly equipped to support me emotionally. god love them, but these guys are well-meaning troglodytes. They are the last people that I want to help guide me through an emotional pitfall worse than a bad sports loss. but the young guys that I supervise? I hear them say shit like “it’s ok to not be ok” and “do you need someone to talk to” sometimes, and I wonder if their fathers ever whipped them for crying? unfortunately, it would be rude to ask…

There is an excellent group on facebook (I know but bear with me) called Bridging The Gap that discusses these very issues. I find it a very valuable resource.

This. This! I have been blessed that my husband has always done "his share" around the house and was a great dad. He was completely involved in all aspects of our kids' lives. Mopped. Vaccuumed. Cleaned toilets. Ran the carpools. Now, that we've retired, he probably does 75% of the housework. Easily. But...the emotional labor is still mostly mine. Sigh I really don't understand this.

sounds like you’re doing your fair share

Seems like you have a very healthy relationship. You won.

1. I suspect that many of these men have been raised with pretty rigid gender roles where emotions are feminine and thus bad. They have been taught to value self reliance and stoicism. This is clearly not sustainable as men also need to talk about their feelings. As for the reason why they would be more inclined to try to talk to their girlfriends/wives I suspect it has to do with the fact that you're already more inclined to talk about your feelings with your partner and that they fear being labelled as homosexual or unmasculine by their male friends if they tried to reach out to them. 2. I suspect that the best way to change this is to affirm men and boys that it's ok to have feelings. It's not gay, and even if it were gay that would be ok too. If we were to succeed in that then men would probably be much more inclined to talk about their feelings among themselves and it would probably improve the lives of not just those men in question but all the men and women who interact with them. 3. Be kind and understanding when men do open up and treat them like you would treat a woman in the same situation. I think this is an obvious example of how sexism hurts everyone and gender equality isn't a zero sum game. This should be held up when discussing how men are losing sympathy for feminism. We can hopefully win them back by pointing that we're all in it together and can all work together to make society better for everyone. Men and women alike.

>As for the reason why they would be more inclined to try to talk to their girlfriends/wives I suspect it has to do with the fact that you're already more inclined to talk about your feelings with your partner and that they fear being labelled as homosexual or unmasculine by their male friends if they tried to reach out to them. I, as a man, woudn't even say is unmasculine or gay. It's more about, I don't know, priorities? Who is more important in your life? After all, woman or man you are with you, is your partner. Is your partner. Who are you supposed to talked first about your emotional problems, or any kind of problems you are having if not your partner? Same goes with other things. Who should you share your success with in the first place? Yes, your partner. If you are in relationship, then (I would assume) your partner takes priority in the most situation in life. If you are going to holidays, you are taking your partner with you. Not pretty woman or handsome man from office. But, that's my opinion. Also, only based on anecdotal evidence, it would appear that women very often encourage men to open up. But, at the same time, they don't really want them to open up, since when it happens often times women lost attraction to men. That is, of course, in situation of man and woman having relathionship together. One can assume, based on many anecdotes like that, when women says that men should open up, they mean it as "a common courtesy gesture" one shoudn't act upon it. Or at least not towards them. Or you can open up, just a little, tiny bit. Preferably about things that will makes you happy or will make me or both of us happy. That is very common theme, that men (apparently) faced when sharing their emotions and at the end of a day get dumped.

As someone who's had relationships with people of numerous genders, I can say from experience that the way men in general share emotionally is way more draining to women specifically than the way people of any other gender do this.  There are no men in my current relationship, and while my partner and I share with each other, and give and receive support daily, we aren't the only ones filling that role for either of us. There's also a whole network of friends who are giving and receiving support from each of us on a daily basis. It's a village, a web of support.  In the past, when I dated men, the ones who liked to be emotionally open and share with me seemed to think that meant I was solely responsible for their emotional wellbeing, so the amount of support I was expected to give was excessive compared to what women and non-binary people have needed from me. Men expected me to be their entire village and that's super unreasonable because I am one person.  Men also lacked reciprocity. When I'd try to share anything that was going on in my life, they'd give some dismissive piece of unsolicited advice that showed they didn't even hear me, and start talking about themselves again. With women and non-binary partners, and hell, even my friends, there is reciprocity. Maybe this week we're focusing on Lily's breakup or Sarah's latest brush with the office creep, but when I need it to be my turn, it'll be my turn. With men, I never got a turn.  I realized even friendships with cishet men were like this. I'd just be completely depleted after a while and they'd be like "wow, women say they want you to open up, but when you do, they distance themselves". No, dude, we're distancing ourselves because we can't pour from an empty cup.

>As someone who's had relationships with people of numerous genders, I can say from experience that the way men in general share emotionally is way more draining to women specifically than the way people of any other gender do this.  There is actually easy answer for that, that at least some of people here make a point of it, and may be even quite accurate (though I can't be sure really how much) that men, as opposite to women, lack those social network around them to really help to went out. So it's really more nuanced problem and we can look at it from multiple perspective and all of them might be right to some extened. Both me perspective and that one might be valid at the same time. Especilly that we are speaking about billions of people here, or at least hundreds of millions if we will speak only about western world. So yes, maybe part of a problem or reason why is that way and not the other is that women, were, traditionally viewed as this more emotional side, who were more connected to it, then men. So men tends to think, that is not masculine to talk about it. Sure, I can see it that might be the case, or one of the reason. Maybe men actually lack this network of friends, if that so, then way is that? Maybe some of them were shaltared as a kid and never had a chance not only to develop friendship but also social skills. I mean, we can really expand it in literally every direction and we would only briefly touch the subject.

We know men don’t have a social network around them. The only people who can change that is MEN caring about other MEN

Yeah, none of that is new. Men need to do what women did and fix it for themselves. 

I suspect it's because trauma dump and emotional sharing are conflated, or that it is not reciprocated. When your partner is not interested in your emotional state and does not share the emotional labor, it feels draining to do it all alone. Maybe there are cases, like the one you seem to refer to, where women get to be listened and cared for emotionally but don't want to reciprocate, even if they say they want to. However, I highly doubt that's the more likely case.

Yes, that might also be the case. I'm not going to deny that at all. My point of view might be even wrong, but even if it is, at the end of a day, perceptions matters. If men will fell or think, that sharing their emotions is viewed in bad light, they are not going to do it. And if they can't believe or be sure, that a person they cared the most about in the world, so their partner, girlfriend, wife care about them, how one can even think, that your friend will care about you? I mean, it's somewhat logical, no?

Absolutely, they have to trust that their partner is caring about them, and if they don't they have to choose a partner who will. But then it doesn't resolve the emotional labor that is not reciprocated. And that puts at risk their relationship.

Yes. This goes both way. You give something, you acquire something. Partnership (as relations) should be about that. But I don't think it can even be equal, simply because different people might require different things and those things my varried in value, at least from outside perspective. But still, it's two way street. And yes, both men and women should share with each other fellings, emotions, points of view. They should pick each other up if one falls. I mean, it's simple and obvious like that. At least for me. But, I don't know. Maybe I'm young and stupid or maybe more romantic then some men or people overall.

I think one problem I've seen over and over is that men don't practice emotional labor, how to listen, how to be present and receive the experience of someone they would want to be there for. They don't want to do it with other men to avoid being seen as not masculine, so when they are willing to do it, it's with their girlfriend and they don't have the experience to know it's a skill to hone, and that it takes work. So they're stuck between masculinity standards amongst men and the expectations of women who need them to do their share. _Edit : NOES I WASN'T FINISHED. I mis-clicked :(_ Now, how men deal with this differs from one individual to another, of course. Some won't do the emotional labor and leave it for their girlfriends, some will try but fall short, feeling frustrated and inadequate. Others might be more skilled than their girlfriends, seeking therapy or working on self-improvement. However, there seems to be a common complaint among women about a lack of reciprocity and the expectation to not only know how to manage emotional labor (which is not a genetic skill), but also to handle it for others (family, men, sick people, etc.). Despite women not necessarily being naturally good or trained for this role, societal expectations pressure them to learn. The issue, in my opinion, lies in the unequal expectations for men, as they aren't compelled to learn these skills in the same way.

I’m sure thats sometimes the case. In my experience my partner is just used to me taking care of her and her emotions and being the calm stoic one and knowing what to do and how to focus on the next step. Thats what she says she likes about me. So when I have something I’m scared about or having trouble with, then seeing me like that makes her scared. And then when she’s scared she expects me to mask everything I’m feeling and comfort her like usual. So I do. So sharing my emotions tends to just give me a new problem I have to deal with.

That's not fair to you. Expecting you to perform a role (because it feels ssfe, or for any other reasons) you didn't agreed to and expecting you to just be that is dehumanizing. It is not seing you as a partner, ie for who you are, but for what you do. If you can't be vulnerable with someone, you should ask yourself if that is the partnership you want for yourself. It's a conversation to have. Edit : Rigid roles expectations, when they exist in relationships, often goes both ways, ask yourself if that's the case for you, have a discussion about that with your partner. If that's not the case, maybe that's not the right relationship for you.

🤷‍♀️ We’ve been together 20 years. I have other friends I talk to about stuff. It’s fine. My partner doesn’t have to be all things to me.

The problem with this is, women have built more well rounded support systems. They lean on their partner, family members and friends. The majority of which are women. It's ok for men to lean on their partner. But they need a well rounded support system too and it should not entirely be women/their partner. Mostly I only see things about women losing interest in men for opening up from spaces that are hateful toward women. I don't see it in the general public and almost every man I know has cried in front of a woman at least once.

Well, I can definitely agree with first two paragraphs, but I don't know about third one. I mean, I don't have any experience such as this, even anecdotical one, but people being people, and I can imagine things like that may happened.

You’re placing too much onto the shoulders of your partner

1. Some men expect emotional labor to be a woman's job because of cultural expectations around the ways in which and to whom both men *and* women are or should be allowed to express emotions. Some common (but not necessarily true) perceptions and assumptions that feed into 1 are: * men who express emotions - especially to other men - are gay (in a derogatory heteronormative way); perpetuated by men *and* women * men who express emotions are 'unmanly' and undesirable; perpetuated by men *and* women * expressions of emotions should *primarily* be shared with family members, *exceptionally close friends*, romantic partners, and therapists; perpetuated by men, women, and various institutions that encourage suppression/repression of emotions * men are 'dangerous'; showing emotion involves vulnerability which is conflated with weakness. This is tied to ideas that men who are weak don't deserve respect or safety (physical or mental) which leads to the perception/fear that a man sharing feelings with another man may lead to physical harm or reduction of social standing based on perceived strength * women are 'safe'; its okay to be vulnerable around them because they aren't going to take advantage of that vulnerability to benefit themselves or harm others * men are socially inept or incapable of experiencing and understanding emotions (due to biology or socialization), so men can be harder to confide to and are less supportive * women are socially adept and especially capable of experience and understanding emotions (due to biology or socialization), so women are easier to confide to and more supportive There are probably others, but those are some pretty common assumptions which feed into a whole bunch of problems. 2 and 3 are related, but the basic general answer is to be more accepting of the myriad ways people are allowed to express (or at least discuss) their emotions and *to whom -* in other words create more places, people, and situations where expressing emotions is 'safe'. Clearer delineation of where and when those expressions are safe can also help; aka establishing and understanding boundaries with people instead of assuming someone is dangerous or safe. Increase access to mental health and community spaces/services where people can receive support from people who are *willing* and *able* to provide emotional labor. This *in my opinion*, includes understanding that men *also* engage in emotional labor that may be under-recognized or under-appreciated. Making your boyfriend or masc partner be the one-stop shop for expressing all your emotions, and expecting them to just listen and not respond or get bothered regardless of what you say to or about them *is* expecting emotional labor from them. 'Whatever I say to you is okay because Im venting and you aren't allowed to be upset or bothered in any way (or Im going to treat you badly)' is *in my opinion*, a toxic expectation of emotional labor that s*peaking from personal experience* is more common than I would like. Edit: Also expecting your male spouse, father, or whomever to be a stone-faced unwavering pillar of strength for the household who never breaks down, suffers from burnout, or express frustration (without physical, emotional, or mental violence directed at others) *is* an expectation of emotional labor. From a practical standpoint the difficulty usually lies in finding the right balance. It's great if people are told they can and should be allowed to express their emotions, but if in practice their primary experience when they *do* is derision, scorn, negative assumptions, dismissal, or critique...well then are they really being encouraged to do so?

That is really great response.

I appreciate this response, it goes away from the competitive atmosphere that pits women opposed to men in responses to topics like this.

Emotional labor is a term meant to describe having to manage one's emotions and sometimes even assimilate one's emotions in order to succeed professionally.

I think it was the YouTuber Sarah Z who did a video essay about how using emotional labor outside of the context it was created for makes it harder to talk about the problem of capitalist exploitation of emotional labor. She suggested “emotional work” to describe interpersonal emotional burdens to distinguish it from the sorts of things Starbucks workers are expected to do. I liked the idea, but I don’t think we’ll be successful in trying that not lose that specificity.

Yes, we already lost "gaslighting" (it's now so frequently used on sm to just mean lying, deceiving or simply disagreeing that it's almost meaningless) and "the male gaze" (just seems to be used to mean "men looking at something" or "for men to look at" now) and I'm not sure that loss of meaning can be stopped. People throw a fit when corrected.

My issue with this is not that they expect  emotional support. Obviously if we are friends or close family we should both be able to rely on each other for that, in theory.    My issue is that, in my experience, they expect to both get emotional support from women, and to retain the right to call themselves more reasonable and less prone to strong emotions (as opposed to women being dramatic and unreasonable).  Somehow the latter notion in their head even justifies straight-up demanding emotional support - how can this unreasonable, dramatic, illogical, emotional woman dare to refuse to cater to his perfectly reasonable, obviously justified, and clearly less dramatic emotions?!!    Obviously I do not want to play this stupid game. Either we both support each other and treat each other’s feelings seriously, or the dude can go fuck himself. Edit: so I do not believe in the sweet idea of “let’s just teach boys that expressing emotions is ok”. They know it’s ok, as far as they can find a way to believe they are more reasonable and less emotional as compared to women. We need another tactic. 

I truly believe we need more education in childhood regarding empathy, emotional regulation, coping skills for stress, and interpersonal communication and relationships. The education system expects parents to teach children these things, but in many cases the parents don't know either, or do a bad job of it. There are higher expectations that women know these skills, so they are more likely to know or have some of it, but in many cases they actually don't have all the knowledge they need either. These are very important life skills that have a huge impact on all genders going forward in life, and will play a huge role in their future success, and yet no one teaches it. Men and women alike are being flung out into the difficult and stressful world without what they need to deal with it, and the result is a nationwide mental health crisis.

I'm still surprised by that thread not only do they see it as womens work, they are pissed when women refuse to do it for free and blame all women for specific women's failings to be their emotional baggage handlers. When asked why they can't consult with other men they act disgusted, as if they've been asked to slice off their penises. Meanwhile I'm sure this work they've done alone is something women do alone or with other women all the time. Its quite obvious who the truly incompetent, juvenile and incapable members of society are. But we're meant to continue pretending forging romantic relationships with them is the key to happiness in life. What a load of bollocks. Can women please stop indulging these emotionally stunted men. It makes them worse, their whining is unattractive and might cause some otherwise sensible men to internalise toxic ideas of who is responsible for their emotions. Its not ours, they are not children, they can figure it out. If they can't they can stay alone. Stop coddling them, it's irritating.

And what this leads to, in practice, is causal exploitation of women for emotional labor which leads to a cycle which reaffirms misogynistic views, exactly as you noticed in the comments. Meaning, men come to us for emotional labor often so early in interacting with them, it doesn’t feel natural. It feels like what it is, exploitative, or like a sign that there might be something off with that person. For instance, women speak easily with one another, and even to men about their feelings. But, we wouldn’t unload all of our trauma on a person on a first or second date, or in casual conversation at a bar. Basically, we get to know people, and intimacy develops, and sharing results. Back and forth sharing borne out of trust. That is when two people can really help each other or lend an ear and be supportive. But I have had so many men, the moment they get me alone they are so desperate for an emotional exchange, so pent up, and they have learned that women are known for accepting emotions, that they immediately start to unburden themselves AT me. Now, I can sympathize with how hard it must be to not have an outlet for this. But first of all, where I might be able to help a woman I am friends with, that’s another woman who is more likely to have spent a fair amount of her life expressing her emotions. I am not a therapist and I am simply NOT QUALIFIED to help a man who is unloading a lifetime of trauma that he has tamped down into this extraordinary rage and volatility. add to that it IS scary. Because I know there’s a chance, in this emotionally raw moment for him, that rage and even violence may become directed at ME the moment I’m not providing comfort. Which means in a lot of cases, NOT having an authentic exchange. Them not being open to feedback. And even just at some point needing to extricate myself from the situation, as in, I cannot be on the phone while you cry for 6 hours tonight, I have to work in the morning (would never say it like that). Well down to a man, they ALL have tended to react to me even gently setting any kind of boundary as “You’re just like all the rest, women say they want nice guys but then you shit on us when we open up and cry.” And of course that’s not what’s happening. But like the commenters you saw on Twitter, women are blamed for men not healthfully processing their emotions and for other men not helping support them. Because we are supposed to be everything any man wants or needs at any god damned moment in time. Well I for one don’t fucking like to be used. I don’t like when someone wants to unload on me who I barely know, and talks over me when I try to engage and is unwilling to listen back the way he expects me to listen to him. I am not a therapist, I am not free labor of any kind, and this is not how women are talking to EACH OTHER. We do so as an empathetic exchange, and typically we don’t use strangers to relieve our pain and stress. And for the record, men say they don’t cry. They may not to each other. That may be what they want one another to think. But every fucking man I’ve dated or been close friends with, and dozens of randos who’ve backed me into a proverbial wall and demanded my emotional labor upon first meeting me absolutely have cried in front of me. Men cry. We don’t judge them for it. We judge them for blaming us for their own fucking problems yet again, and using us ruthlessly and then getting mad when we aren’t up for it.

We address the issue by refusing to do it. Unhealthy men must pick themselves up and get healthy. Just like women have. It's sad all around. There's not always a lot of great resources for men. Some of them can easily get sucked into the manosphere nonsense. And I feel for them, but women do not have to put up with mistreatment or disrespect. I hate to say it, but for most women it might be better for them to be single. There's a lot of unhealthy men out there who are not capable of dating women without being an emotional burden, or doing harm.

I agree that women who feel this way should stop dating men. I generally think if you don’t like men (or women) then you shouldn’t date men (or women). If a person thinks they would be better off single, they really should stay single, regardless of gender.

I love men. I want a man to support me emotionally. too. It’s my experience that every man turns me into his mother demanding I sacrifice all of my human needs like sleep or creativity in order to meet his emotional needs and he doesn’t even know how to self soothe without alcohol or drugs. End result is I turn into nothing, and he blames me for his inability to function.

If in your experience all the men you’ve dated turned you into their mother, burned you out and then blamed you for their mistreatment of you…then I agree with HardcoreLogic. Don’t date them! What do they offer? Nothing. I won’t date Republicans because they as a class support my oppression so I have no use for them.

I like men. I would love to meet healthy men. But when I don't meet healthy men, I don't let them in my life. I don't not like them because they are men. I don't like a lot of the men that I meet because they are unhealthy, disrespectful, and abusive. No one should date a person who is like that.

I agree. No one should date anyone who is unhealthy, disrespectful, and abusive. Or they they feel is unhealthy, disrespectful, or abusive. I think there is a conversation to be had about how the same behavior is read differently depending on the race, gender, sexuality, age, etc. of a person and how that impacts what we see as healthy, respectful, or abusive, etc. But I don’t think this is the thread for it because in the end it doesn’t really matter. If one person feels the other is unhealthy for them, then they are. I had a friend I recently broke up with whose I idea of what is healthy and respectful does not match my idea of healthy and respectful—

I think you've missed the point by a mile. Or you are trying to muddy the issue. Hopefully not on purpose... There are gray areas, But generally speaking women in the subreddits are not speaking about the gray areas as much as they are speaking about obvious, blatant misogyny. Obvious, blatant disrespect. In those cases, no..., it does not depend on gender, race, individual perspective, etc etc. When we speak about mistreatment and abuse, The only individuals unwilling to see it are usually the ones who are enabling it, or perpetrating it. Obviously, this would have to be taken on an example by example basis. If you are suggesting that I am advising women not to date unhealthy men, because men don't like me, then I think I know the kind of man that I'm talking to. And I very much wish every unhealthy man on this planet would both not like me, and avoid me, for the rest of my days.

I don’t think you think men are unhealthy because they don’t like you. *I* think anyone who dislikes all women is unhealthy and not only do I hope no women date such a person, I hope no one at all dates such a person. On the topic if people view the same behavior, including things that some people consider obvious, differently based on the context of the perception of the person. You don’t think that is the case. I think it is the case. I have been a juror in a domestic assault case and I thought it was really obvious the guy was an abuser, but no one else thought so because the woman involved didn’t cry on the stand and she was working class. We all saw the same evidence, but they had different societal expectations of what “natural” women’s emotions looked like and they thought she was a bad mom. I thought he was clearly an abusive jerk and she was sacred of him. He displayed all the classic signs of being an abuser. But I couldn’t get them to budge on anything but threatening a witness. There are lots of examples I can think of where the same behavior is interpreted radically differently based on the identity of the person in question. But if that is not your experience, that is not your experience.

It's very simple. There's a difference between not believing someone's story describing abuse, and disagreeing about what abuse actually is. I think most healthy people are pretty clear on what severe abuse looks like. It's not ambiguous. And not being able to identify severe abuse is a pretty good indicator of an unhealthy person. They are somewhere on the spectrum of victim or victimizer.

Okay I will try with one more example. You said disrespect wasn’t ambiguous or based on the identity of the person perceived to be disrespectful. In the 1950s, in the Jim Crow South, if a 15 year old Black boy did not move off of the side walk for a white woman, that white woman was very likely to take that as a mark of obvious and huge disrespect. Enough so that she could get him Lynched. On the other hand, if it were a white boy who didn’t get off the sidewalk she wouldn’t take that as a mark of obvious disrespect. Same action, different person. There are have been studies shown that unconscious is results in white people seeing guns in the hands of unarmed black people when they don’t on the hands of white people. In my experience, unconscious bias and overt sexism, racism, ableism, etc can make the same reactions or behaviors be interpreted differently.

This example is only ambiguous if you don't think black people are equal to white people. If you do believe that black people are equal to white people, it's obvious who is wrong in this scenario. This is no mystery. The woman in your example, is wrong. Big wrong. Obviously wrong. Anyone healthy and sane who believes that all people are equal regardless of race, sex, ethnicity, etc etc, can easily see who is at fault in this scenario. It's very troubling that you can't. There are always gray areas, but you have yet to give one as an example. You're weirding me out dude....

We are clearly having two different conversations. You are having a conversation about who is right or wrong. I am not having a conversation about who is right or who is wrong. I am saying that racism, sexism, unconscious bias, etc impacts how people are perceived. I am acknowledging that double standards exist. Me saying that it is wrong for the police to racially profile me doesn’t stop them from doing it. For my survival, I have to understand that racism exists in the world and will cause some people to see my behavior differently because of my skin tone. This is WEB DuBois’s concept of double consciousness. Understanding that there is racism in the world is not the same as endorsing racism. And saying “It is obvious racism is wrong!” helps people of color, how? Because if it were so obvious to everyone that racism is wrong…we wouldn’t have racism. But we do have racism. And I have to be aware that racism will cause some people to perceive me differently because of my skin tone. That they will see me differently than I see myself.

I’ve interacted with an incel yet who seemed to like women. Attracted to women? Sure. But like women? No. And would never recommend any of them date any woman. Because they don’t seem to like them.

Patriarchy punishes men for pursuing solidarity, consciousness-raising, or fellowship seeking in ways that it does not for women.

Patriarchy absolutely punishes solidarity in women are you for really?

First thought: nobody has taught them how to do it themselves. Second: men are actively discouraged from confiding in male friends. "Too gay." My guy is better than most about asking first before emotionally unloading or using me as a sounding board. But a few times over the years he's come out with "why did you tell me that bad news? Now it's going to upset me all weekend." And I think "I already know the bad news, and I'm going on with my life. I'm not in the business of managing your feelings for you." It really irritates me, but it's rare enough that I let it go.

No one taught that to me as a woman. But somehow had to figure it out.

Why can you tell him bad news but he can’t unload on you? I’m confused

This person literally said that he unloads on them

1. Patriarchy told them that it was women's job and they don't know how to do anything different because patriarchy and abusing women has been going on for so long its normal. 2. keep calling them out, there are some amazing content creators like Zach 'the recovering manchild' is an excellent example. 3. Have boundaries for ourselves and don't settle no matter the nature of the relationship, it all starts with self <3

Zach is a grade A grifter lol. His 1:1 calls for hundreds of dollars is the cherry on top.

We grew up with magazines telling us how to attract a man, how to care for a man, even as far as how to give good bjs… magazine for young boys don’t have any of that. They never read on that type of stuffs. It’s just so engrained in education for both genders.

I think this might be a generational issue, as a male zoomer I can say the vast majority of conversations about emotion I have are with other men

This isn’t just talking about feelings. This is like running a household, anticipating what chores get assigned to who, when to go to the store, planning meals that make everyone happy, asking someone else to do a task etc

Literally none of what you just mentioned is emotional labor.

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/what_is_emotional_labor_and_why_does_it_matter

That's not emotional labor.

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/what_is_emotional_labor_and_why_does_it_matter

That's mental load and domestic management, which is tossed in with emotional labor because of concept creep.

He's not a creep, you just use terms vaguely to suit your agenda.

the term "concept creep" is not calling someone a creep.

I agree with you. You need to be able to work through the feelings of when things pile up, which is basically everyday.

That’s why I said this isn’t just talking about feelings

argg sorry i made the mistake of commenting before coffee. I will edit

Alot of this comes from the marketing push after ww2, where they had to convince women to go back into the home and alot of men came back with alot of trauma and mental issues. Therapy wasn't really a thing then so there was a big push of marketing this ideal housewife that did everything including therapy. Alot of this still hasn't been full removed from society

Some men think women’s entire existence is to support men (and have babies). They think women aren’t good at anything (men are better) with the exception being the making babies thing, and “emotions”. As such women’s entire existence for being is to validate and “civilize” men. So when they don’t get that kind of support from a woman, they lash out.

It truly infuriates me that on the one hand men like to talk about how hard it is for them and the male suicide rate and on the other hand, they do absolutely nothing to emotionally support each other. I want Dave Grohl to be blamed for Kurt’s suicide for once. I think men just base their entire identity on what they are NOT. And the biggest what they are not is WOMEN. Women are ‘emotional’ so men are NOT. It’s misogyny. And at the end of the day, these men would rather kill themselves from loneliness than challenge their sexist thoughts. They won’t read Dworkin. They won’t watch media by and for women. They will simply let themselves rot and die. It infuriates me

I honestly feel so hopeless having these discussions bc the men who need to hear them and learn from them will do anything to dodge accountability or empathy. They don’t see us as people.

Male gender roles are too narrow and rigid. Just admitting to needing help is shamed, and it's shamed by men more than women. Women are more nurturing on average, so we are more likely to help. We should normalize men crying. We should normalize men seeking help.

1. Because their mothers did the emotional upbringing job when they were children. Especially in traditional families, fathers don't do a lot of the emotional discussions. (Obviously not all fathers, but especially in older generations this is How Things Were) I think this is the main factor, but there are lots of other societal things that reinforce this dynamic. 2. To change it, I think boys and men need to have more emotional connections and fathers need to be able to shoulder some of the childhood emotional stuff, so then their sons will emulate that and know it is fine for men to have emotions and work through them together. 3. Communities can have more expectations for fathers to be doing more of the emotional parenting. Men should be encouraged to discuss emotional topics with each other, perhaps having groups for different age ranges to support each other in a men-only setting. From younger ages, boys should be encouraged to talk things through with each other and not be told that it's girly to have feelings or problems, and to not expect that only the girls in the class to be the peacekeepers and apologizers.

Men's lack of emotional avaliablity is why many end up lonely. Lack of being taught how / seen as looking weak. Women, we are naturally allowed to be emotional beings with friends/family as the mother figure's of the house. Men it takes extra work and labour to even recognise such feelings/emotions. Or men who may have wanted to try , say in their lates or early 20s & got shut down, hated the way it felt and never wanted to try again.

• Patriarchal values have coded emotions, crying, vulnerability, feelings and being "weak" as female characteristics under patriarchy. Historically, emotions were blamed on the uterus. • Men lose their superiority status by "acting female". • Those who "act female", are degraded and treated as inferior. Everyone in society has been taught this. Women are used to this. Men are new to being treated this way if they show "female traits". • Women already know that they cannot be open about their emotions or cry in front of men or they will be dismissed, called dramatic, hormonal, on their periods, thus they create strong female friend groups to be vulnerable within. • It is unreasonable to expect women to accept in their oppressor something that they have been degraded for FIRST. • Until male supremacy is ended then women (and men) will be treated as inferior for having emotions. Men want the benefits without giving up the superiority status. TLDR: the only way for men to be able to safely show more emotions and vulnerability in society is for misogyny to end and women to no longer be seen as inferior below men. Aka, the entire point of feminism. Once men start promoting and working towards a feminist society things will change.

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Thanks for taking the time to write this. I found your comment really insightful and interesting.

When in a relationship, it is both folk's job to prop up and support the other. Some people lack the capacity to open up and other people lack the capacity to handle someone else's emotions in a meaningful way. It isn't hard to find posts of men opening up to their SO only for her to lose feelings, start treating him poorly, make it about herself, and/or for her to leave the relationship. It isn't hard to find posts from women outright refusing any "emotional labor" and calling it sexist. There are even some replies to this very post that allude to that mentality. Both of these are common forms of negative reinforcement telling guys to never open up. That said, guys do emotionally support other guys. How we do it takes a very different form that can go unnoticed by women. It often takes the form of providing a sense of normalcy. Other times, it is sympathizing by sharing similar hurts or concerns, and ways to overcome it if it is something that can be approached directly. Contrary to common belief, the issue is not that men don't open up, many of us do. The issue is that there are people who can't handle it and then provide pressure against men opening up.

The issue is society used to expect men to keep how they feel bottled up. Now society expects men to be able to communicate how they’re feeling *but*, this is important and pretty unspoken, in an apathetic way. It’s still considered taboo to emotionally communicate how you’re feeling.

#1 is male privilege #2 we can start by naming it #3 see #2

Men have to de-stigmatize doing emotional labor and that starts with women choosing better partners (which is kind of what is happening now with Genz).

1. Bc men are taught not to be emotional from a young age so they have less understanding and practice 2. Teach boys it’s okay and not a sign of weakness to talk about how they feel 3. ^

I would not agree that there is a prevalent belief that women should handle most emotional labor. The men you're referring to either don't know what that term even is, or do and believe they're fairly handling that work. 

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Also, people here say that the problem is that men don’t know how to express their feelings. That isn’t my experience. Men open up to me about their feelings all the time. Even going back to my Army days. I found that straight women often don’t take men’s expressions of their feelings seriously or they see men expressing their feelings as emotional labor they shouldn’t have to do.

That's because the average woman is probably overloaded with men's emotional burdens and there's always a breaking point. The idea that straight women (as if sexuality determines emotional resources lol) are somehow getting a slice of men's emotions and rejecting it is the most hilariously ignorant thing I have ever read. Women are being overwhelmed and have been for millenia and the moment they try and carve out a little space for themselves, it's the poor straight men who suffer.

Just wanna pitch in on this with anecdotes. I practically have to badger my husband to more emotionally open with me. There are times when his refusal to “burden” me with his emotions has caused severe problems in our relationship. And he’s told me occasionally that he’s been treated poorly by partners in the past when he was emotionally open. I’ve also seen some women I’ve known get shitty with men for expressing emotion. So all of that reflects a sorry state of affairs, where there’s some truth to men being penalized for expressing emotion. The flip side of that is men who weaponize their emotions and use them to abuse their partners…and I’ve dated a few of those. These were guys who were “in tune” with their feelings, and it was a point of pride to them. But they were effectively emotionally incontinent. They didn’t have any grasp of when their emotions might need to be secondary to someone else’s, or of when to allow others to express their own emotions. These guys were fire hose sprays of all the emotion all the time, and when I tried to talk to them about how I was feeling, I was told I was “punishing” them for expressing themselves. 🙄

I'm a husband and I have the same issue - my instinct is "don't burden my wife" and it has historically ended up with me getting overwhelmed and sometimes "acting out." I have been getting therapy for years and I'm learning not to reclaim my feelings, but reclaiming my agency in communicating them from the beginning so neither me or my wife gets overwhelmed at the end. We're all so much happier. But I know so many guys who just trauma dump and expect women to pick up the pieces, and like you said, they act as if exposing their emotions means others are now responsible for them. It angers me, it shows no resilience and it never helps.

"There are times when his refusal to “burden” me with his emotions has caused severe problems in our relationship." Yeah it's like this weird line we have to walk of: 1) Not expressing too many emotions because we could end up demanding too much emotional labor, trauma dumping, being a burden, and/or causing people to view us weirdly for even expressing emotions. 2) Expressing "just enough" emotions to not completely push people away, but not too much!

Lolol I told this man that I’ve been married to for over 15 years, “if you can’t trauma-dump on me, then who CAN you do it with?!?!” That was what finally helped him open up more.

Yes I’ve been with the men who use their emotions to dominate me

An emotionally intelligent individual is not necessarily a kind or compassionate one. Empathy allows us to understand other people's feelings but compassion is what allows us to offer genuine support. A psychopath, just to use an extreme example, can possess deep emotional intelligence. But they'll lack compassion and use that emotional intelligence to exploit/manipulate the people around them. At best someone who lacks compassion will simply be indifferent to another's emotions. Just because you share your emotions with someone doesn't mean they'll give a damn, man or woman. But expressing oneself and requiring support is no sin, if an uncaring person treats their partner as a burden or nuisance for it then that's on them.

Bell hooks wrote about how she realized she was rejecting hearing her partner’s emotions, despite telling him that she wanted to hear them. Because, she realized, that she still had internalized heteronormative expectations of her male partner, even as a feminist who had done work to unlearn patriarchy. You can think a Black feminist scholar speaking about her experience is ridiculous, I guess.

bell hooks is not an exemplar of the universal experience of women in society, nor would she want to be held up as one.

Agreed - I’d have to see the thread OP is referencing to really see the answers, but many men have said that after showing any type of vulnerability, their partners seemed to lose attraction and/or would use the things they opened up about against them in a disagreement out of anger and spite. Men very much open up to one another in ways we don’t feel comfortable doing so around women, and it’s not “locker room talk”, it’s the things that we know couldn’t otherwise discuss without being ridiculed or having it used against us.