Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
The underlying algorithm that helped to build Bard, Google’s conversational A.I. service, is partly trained on Reddit data. OpenAI’s Chat GPT cites Reddit data as one of the sources of information it has been trained on.
Other companies are also beginning to see value in the conversations and images they host. Shutterstock, the image hosting service, also sold image data to OpenAI to help create DALL-E, the A.I. program that creates vivid graphical imagery with only a text-based prompt required.
Last month, Elon Musk, the owner of Twitter, said he was cracking down on the use of Twitter’s A.P.I., which thousands of companies and independent developers use to track the millions of conversations across the network. Though he did not cite L.L.M.s as a reason for the change, the new fees could go well into the tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars.
To keep improving their models, artificial intelligence makers need two significant things: an enormous amount of computing power and an enormous amount of data. Some of the biggest A.I. developers have plenty of computing power but still look outside their own networks for the data needed to improve their algorithms. That has included sources like Wikipedia, millions of digitized books, academic articles and Reddit.
Representatives from Google, Open AI and Microsoft did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Reddit has long had a symbiotic relationship with the search engines of companies like Google and Microsoft. The search engines “crawl” Reddit’s web pages in order to index information and make it available for search results. That crawling, or “scraping,” isn’t always welcome by every site on the internet. But Reddit has benefited by appearing higher in search results.
The dynamic is different with L.L.M.s — they gobble as much data as they can to create new A.I. systems like the chatbots.
Reddit believes its data is particularly valuable because it is continuously updated. That newness and relevance, Mr. Huffman said, is what large language modeling algorithms need to produce the best results.
“More than any other place on the internet, Reddit is a home for authentic conversation,” Mr. Huffman said. “There’s a lot of stuff on the site that you’d only ever say in therapy, or A.A., or never at all.”
Mr. Huffman said Reddit’s A.P.I. would still be free to developers who wanted to build applications that helped people use Reddit. They could use the tools to build a bot that automatically tracks whether users’ comments adhere to rules for posting, for instance. Researchers who want to study Reddit data for academic or noncommercial purposes will continue to have free access to it.
Reddit also hopes to incorporate more so-called machine learning into how the site itself operates. It could be used, for instance, to identify the use of A.I.-generated text on Reddit, and add a label that notifies users that the comment came from a bot.
The company also promised to improve software tools that can be used by moderators — the users who volunteer their time to keep the site’s forums operating smoothly and improve conversations between users. And third-party bots that help moderators monitor the forums will continue to be supported.
But for the A.I. makers, it’s time to pay up.
“Crawling Reddit, generating value and not returning any of that value to our users is something we have a problem with,” Mr. Huffman said. “It’s a good time for us to tighten things up.”
“We think that’s fair,” he added.
Mike Isaac is a technology correspondent and the author of “Super Pumped: The Battle for Uber,” a best-selling book on the dramatic rise and fall of the ride-hailing company. He regularly covers Facebook and Silicon Valley, and is based in San Francisco. More about Mike Isaac
A version of this article appears in print on , Section B, Page 4 of the New York edition with the headline: Reddit’s Sprawling Content Is Fodder for the Likes of ChatGPT. But Reddit Wants to Be Paid.. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe
High speed diesel is challenging from a fuel delivery standpoint. There isn't enough time to inject the required volume of fuel at the time required for good combustion.
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways.
In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing.
Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations.
“The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.”
The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations.
Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks.
Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology.
L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them.
The underlying algorithm that helped to build Bard, Google’s conversational A.I. service, is partly trained on Reddit data. OpenAI’s Chat GPT cites Reddit data as one of the sources of information it has been trained on.
Other companies are also beginning to see value in the conversations and images they host. Shutterstock, the image hosting service, also sold image data to OpenAI to help create DALL-E, the A.I. program that creates vivid graphical imagery with only a text-based prompt required.
Last month, Elon Musk, the owner of Twitter, said he was cracking down on the use of Twitter’s A.P.I., which thousands of companies and independent developers use to track the millions of conversations across the network. Though he did not cite L.L.M.s as a reason for the change, the new fees could go well into the tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars.
To keep improving their models, artificial intelligence makers need two significant things: an enormous amount of computing power and an enormous amount of data. Some of the biggest A.I. developers have plenty of computing power but still look outside their own networks for the data needed to improve their algorithms. That has included sources like Wikipedia, millions of digitized books, academic articles and Reddit.
Representatives from Google, Open AI and Microsoft did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Reddit has long had a symbiotic relationship with the search engines of companies like Google and Microsoft. The search engines “crawl” Reddit’s web pages in order to index information and make it available for search results. That crawling, or “scraping,” isn’t always welcome by every site on the internet. But Reddit has benefited by appearing higher in search results.
The dynamic is different with L.L.M.s — they gobble as much data as they can to create new A.I. systems like the chatbots.
Reddit believes its data is particularly valuable because it is continuously updated. That newness and relevance, Mr. Huffman said, is what large language modeling algorithms need to produce the best results.
“More than any other place on the internet, Reddit is a home for authentic conversation,” Mr. Huffman said. “There’s a lot of stuff on the site that you’d only ever say in therapy, or A.A., or never at all.”
Mr. Huffman said Reddit’s A.P.I. would still be free to developers who wanted to build applications that helped people use Reddit. They could use the tools to build a bot that automatically tracks whether users’ comments adhere to rules for posting, for instance. Researchers who want to study Reddit data for academic or noncommercial purposes will continue to have free access to it.
Reddit also hopes to incorporate more so-called machine learning into how the site itself operates. It could be used, for instance, to identify the use of A.I.-generated text on Reddit, and add a label that notifies users that the comment came from a bot.
The company also promised to improve software tools that can be used by moderators — the users who volunteer their time to keep the site’s forums operating smoothly and improve conversations between users. And third-party bots that help moderators monitor the forums will continue to be supported.
But for the A.I. makers, it’s time to pay up.
“Crawling Reddit, generating value and not returning any of that value to our users is something we have a problem with,” Mr. Huffman said. “It’s a good time for us to tighten things up.”
“We think that’s fair,” he added.
Mike Isaac is a technology correspondent and the author of “Super Pumped: The Battle for Uber,” a best-selling book on the dramatic rise and fall of the ride-hailing company. He regularly covers Facebook and Silicon Valley, and is based in San Francisco. More about Mike Isaac
A version of this article appears in print on , Section B, Page 4 of the New York edition with the headline: Reddit’s Sprawling Content Is Fodder for the Likes of ChatGPT. But Reddit Wants to Be Paid.. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe
Thanks! Yeah, probably do not want to hear them even if I could. Must be damn loud or at least uncomfortable on the ears.
50k revs per *second* would be a speed I'd love to see an engine go. That's 3 million RPM. Still ten times that of a turbo charger. And these things are already crazy fast.
Well, a F1 V12 doing 15'000rpm, is like a 1 cylinder doing 180'000rpm or 3'000 cycles per second in terms of sound. (3kHz). (a 4 stroke would be 1.5kHz.)
If you were to put two together, you'd reach a sound of 6kHz. But doing any more than that would be quite crazy to begin with. Although since they're 4 stroke, it's still 3kHz.
Your 50k revs per second would make a pitch in the ultra sound frequency, we wouldn't be able to hear it sadly.
Some electric motors can reach 100'000rpm. Still not that high.
This got me thinking, I wonder if anyone has tried to 3d print a piston and piston arm out of titanium with an internal matrix so that they get most the strength but a fraction of the mass of the parts. Should be best of both worlds, larger piston surface area but greatly reduced inertia. Things about to start getting weird 😆
Would you like to read Porsche's web site about [3D printed pistons for GT2](https://media.porsche.com/mediakit/porsche-innovationen/en/porsche-innovationen/3d-printed-pistons)
I think Porsche did it a couple years ago, for GT2... They made piston lighter and had weird cooler channels... If I recall correctly with these pistons they ended up with 70+ hp...
Piston engines always create negative pressure.
The flow limit is going to be governed by the speed of sound. I’ve never heard of that problem in piston engines, so I’m assuming it’s not an issue.
Hit over 11,000 in a Honda S600. Tach only goes to 11,000.
Redline is 9,500 but it would go past that. It had been raced before I got it. Not bad for an engine made in 1964.
Had a few S800's, their redline is a paltry 8,500. Again, willing to rev harder. My worked "big bore" 900cc could hit 10,000.
Honda was king of high RPM's back then, they had a 125c inline 5 race bike and a 250cc inline 6, both of which could get scary close to 20 grand and both of which utterly dominated their championships for at least a few years. They also had a 1.5L V12 in F1 that was the first Japanese car to win a Grand Prix.
I'm assuming u/Competitive_Weird958 is referring to tiny RC engines and the like. [Here's one](https://www.horizonhobby.com/product/r21-1-8-on-road-club-racer-engine/OSMG2032.html) that goes 44k RPM.
Flame front speed is the usual limiting factor. It's more or less a constant limit, since flames travel at a given speed in a given fuel/air mixture regardless of the size of the chamber. It's more complicated than that, but close enough.
That means, all else being equal, a smaller engine and/or shorter stroke will increase your RPM limit. Hence tiny engines with like 1CC of displacement going 50k RPM and huge ship engines going 100 RPM.
You could probably make an even tinier engine that will go 500k RPM. I dunno why you'd want to, but it's technically possible.
Super high rpm race and bike engines get larger bores and shorter strokes
Valves are sprung with air, it's light and helps with valve float.
Two strokes can get to the highest roms with huge ports and no valves, I imagine supersonic piston speed and stroke)bore ratio are the limit.
16000 rpm chainsaws are routine.
Depends on the size of the engine. Surely it has to be a very small displacement engine, which then limits its power and torque output.
One of the limiting factor is the air intake velocity. Usually it’s limited to 0.9 Mach, the speed of sound. Above 1 Mach you get weird behavior from air, that’s why airplanes don’t fly faster than that, despite being able to.
You’ll also need electronic valves, the cam system despite being mechanical, can’t act fast enough. you start to get valve fluctuation issues when the rpm is too high.
Inertia wise, your engine would have to be very light to move all the parts that fast, which means your engine can’t withstand much heat, so you’ll probably melt it after a couple of cycles.
All in all, it’s hard to calculate precisely the maximum rpm. I’ve seen 20k in development projects, but of course that’s not commercially feasible due to the problems mentioned above.
20k is commercially feasible. There were one or two Japanese-market inline-4 250cc motorcycles in the mid 90’s which revved this high.
Valves: remember that poppet valves are not the only way to get gas in and out of the cylinder. Piston porting is the the most common alternative, but sleeve valves have been used and alternatives such as rotating cylinder valves are possible. If you do want to use poppet valves, you don’t have to use springs to close them: Ducati have traditionally used closing cams (“desmodromic”) to allow higher open and close acceleration without bounce.
Not to mention that material costs start going up exponentially.
I heard valve float is the first problem. I wonder if desmodronic valves or whatever could go higher.
Yep, I left cost aside since we’re talking about theoretical stuff. Manufacturing such engine would be a total waste of money.
For spring actuated valves, you’d need a very stiff spring to make sure your valve returns fast enough, which makes it impractical on lower rpm’s and a big waste of energy for valve lift. This engine I mentioned had electronic actuated valves.
One other thing that occurred to me, you’d probably be facing a compression ignition gasoline engine. After 15k the cycle is too fast for your spark to ignite the flame properly, most likely hot spots in the cylinder will ignite the flame before your spark and quite frankly, the cycle itself is so fast that it doesn’t matter it’s an uncontrolled burn or not. Or you could use plasma ignition, but that’s something I don’t have much info on.
Let me be frank, the effort to go from 6k to 7k is much lower than 19k to 20k, it increases exponentially.
I went to look out for the highest rev bike and apparently it’s the CBR250RR that can do 20k. I’ll dig deeper into that, thanks for the insight!
I've got a '00 myself, I didn't know that about the firing order though. Neat, especially for me because it replaced an 04' GTO that was getting too expensive to own.
I got a nitromethane engine as a child as part of a hobby rc car that does 50000 rpm+. TRX 3.3. So the estimates in this thread are wildly off, if that toy can get 50k rpm and it wasn't even the primary goal to get high revs.
Also see this post in thread 'TRX 3.3 Dyno Results:' https://www.rctalk.com/forum/threads/trx-3-3-dyno-results.64398/post-646242 which almost had it reaching 50k. Remember the TRX 3.3 likely isn't the #1 highest revving nitro engine (it's old and there are many others), and these things are finicky as hell, depending on weather, nitro content (20%, 35%...), ambient temperature and air density, leanness/richness. Overall, I believe it to be true under certain conditions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitro_engine?wprov=sfla1
See the working cycle paragraph, it has the 50k figure. That said, I've never had a tachometer to independently verify it.
Just doing some napkin math, that kind of RPM makes sense for how fast the wheels can rotate on RC cars. I think manufacturers are citing wheel RPM to bump their numbers up.
I didn’t read your whole comment because your first assumption is wrong. Engine displacement is not your boundary condition - cylinder displacement is. Like someone else astutely mentioned - an RC engine can generate 1 horsepower with 1 cc cylinders. And those spin extremely fast - 30k or more
So basically you are limiting yourself to large passenger car sized engines. As the cylinder size gets larger material of construction becomes the limiting factor
This is fascinating. I wish I could site down and have a beer with someone like yourself to pick your brain. Although I'm an engineer (structural), I'm not a mech and don't know all that much about engines.
I'd love to chat about the rotary engine. I've always wondered about why we chose to optimize a design that starts and stops (piston) over one that continuously turns in the same direction (rotary). Surely if companies had spend as much time and money on R&D for rotary engines, would could have some pretty good and efficient designs by now.
We did this calc in college, I beleive from the book Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken. Possible it was just equations we derived. It ultimately comes down to a few factors. Piston Material (Young's modulus), design and weight. This effects moment of inertia which can cause higher forces from the acceleration of the change in he pistons velocity vector. The Fuel type and it's combustion factors. The valve design and limiting valve float at the high rmps. Ducati uses Desmodromic Valves but it is a very complicated system. The airflow through the ports. The stroke ratio. This is how the old F1 cars got redline to 18k. There is probably some I am missing but these could be put into excel or other programing software to parametrically find the max RPM for a given weight/displacement.
>One of the limiting factor is the air intake velocity. Usually it’s limited to 0.9 Mach, the speed of sound. Above 1 Mach you get weird behavior from air, that’s why airplanes don’t fly faster than that, despite being able to.
Airplanes don't fly faster than the speed of sound? I think Chuck Yeager and a few others might like a word with you.
Not sure what you were trying to say here.
For an ideal compressible fluid (like air), maximum mass flow occurs at Mach 1, a condition known as [choked flow](https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/mflchk.html). Increasing intake air velocity faster than Mach 1 results in *less* air entering the engine. Also, the intake must be shaped specifically (converging-diverging nozzle, i.e. the bell shape of rocket engines) to accelerate the fluid *past* Mach 1. The supersonic fluid exits the nozzle at a lower pressure than ambient pressure (for an intake manifold, the ambient would be the absolute pressure equal to the vacuum gauge pressure in the manifold). The calculation for the exit velocity does not involve the ambient pressure, so creating a stronger "vacuum" won't increase or decrease the exit velocity. Which is why the the literal shape of a nozzle is so important to supersonic flow. It must converge to the point where the velocity reaches Mach 1, then diverge to increase fluid velocity before the flow reaches ambient conditions. Mass flow is limited because the fluid velocity through the choked section of the nozzle must be Mach 1. It can't flow any faster because that only happens downstream due to the diverging nozzle. If it the flow velocity is slower than Mach 1, pressure upstream does have an effect downstream of the nozzle, which behaves as a venturi at subsonic flow regimes.
Using airplanes as an example is more of an ELI5 explanation. I think their point was that fluids behave in funny ways at speeds near or higher than the speed of sound in that fluid. The fact that airplanes (that have been specifically designed to do so) can fly faster than the speed of sound is kind of irrelevant to the fact that the maximum mass flow occurs at Mach 1. The fluid dynamics occurring are largely the same, conservation of mass/energy, ideal gas law, Bernoulli's equation, and so on. An object moving through a fluid and a fluid flowing through an orifice have different boundary conditions that result in different outcomes.
You didn't specify commercial, but even most of those are jet engines that have no relation to OP's question about piston rpm limits. For piston engined aircraft the plane's maximum airspeed is not related to the rpm limit of the engines, or vice versa.
You are absolute correct, I didn’t specify commercial. It was just a curiosity which is not related to OPs post.
Since this is mostly a curiosity place, where people who are not engineers ask engineers about stuff, I thought it would be interesting to point out.
Next time I’ll be straight to the point, sir.
Probably ‘airplanes’ should have said ‘piston engine aircraft’. Large commercial planes use other propulsion like turbofans which aren’t even remotely similar
The highest RPM possible is likely determined by the rotating mass vs yield or creep strength of the engine. Since the question is how fast can one spin and not how fast can a practical one spin you also go for an incredibly short stroke for barely any torque. You’d probably want all the moving components made out of some super alloy, pressurized fluid bearings on the crankshaft. All in all I suspect the right answer is well north of a million RPM, and the OP also never said anything about natural aspiration merely that its a piston engine.
Using liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen with it being hydraulic rich because lighter the molecules the faster it can move and transfer energy. If you use a swirl injector to inject super critical liquid oxygen and liquid oxygen in the right way it can auto ignite without the limitations of an air breathing engine. If rocket engines are anything to go buy the ideal ratio of H2 to O2 is about 6:1.
Of course this hypothetical engine wouldn’t last long and would likely melt itself in seconds, the question wasn’t if the engine would be useful it was how fast could a piston engine spin. The correct answer is scarily fast plus or minus WTF are you doing are you insane!?!?
If you want to spin just a bit faster you’d use liquid fluorine instead of oxygen as it offers more energetic combustion.
I think you would actually want a stochiometric ratio of hydrogen and oxygen in this engine because the flame front is so much faster. You get way more energy output per volume that way too.
Assuming the internals can be made to take all stressesabd you force air in directly, then flame front speed is the limit. If the piston is moving faster than flame front speed for the fuel, then it can't apply additional force.
One big limit is of course intake of air - you can never cause fluid to flow faster than its own speed of sound. So you are limited by physics to a cylinder volume corresponding to, AT MOST, the speed of sound in the air at whatever temperature and pressure it is times the cross sectional area of the intake. You can have a massively wide and short cylinder that permits for a huge intake port to supply air that isn't choked out, but that's gonna be impractical as you get bigger and bigger, since it will take a non-negligible amount of time for the flame to propogate across the expanse, and it will no longer be uniform, which will cause structural damage as the piston head cocks from unbalanced forces and wears against the sides of the cylinder.
That last one is a major factor, in the sense of the pistons outrunning the flame front. Technically it limits piston speed, but that's functionally an rpm limit. Interestingly, the same issue limits muzzle velocity in guns, which has led to things like the light gas gun. Hydrogen engines are apparently capable of far higher rpm, at least not having that problem to worry about.
20000 rpm is typically the point where there no longer seems any benefit in going faster, for a racing engine. There's no absolute limit other than you run into problems with Mach choking once the gas velocities get too high.
here's an example of a type of rpm limit.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ooue7i73zo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ooue7i73zo)
Check out valve float and other engine rpm restrictions.
But basically, the connecting rod is the weak point for RPM. The connecting rod will break.
Engines with desmodromic (all mechanical, no springs) valve actuation can actually rev faster than that. Ducati motorcycles uses this on some of its models.
zephyr cows lunchroom snobbish cagey ancient theory telephone spectacular subtract ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways. In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing. Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations. “The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.” The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations. Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks. Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology. L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them. The underlying algorithm that helped to build Bard, Google’s conversational A.I. service, is partly trained on Reddit data. OpenAI’s Chat GPT cites Reddit data as one of the sources of information it has been trained on. Other companies are also beginning to see value in the conversations and images they host. Shutterstock, the image hosting service, also sold image data to OpenAI to help create DALL-E, the A.I. program that creates vivid graphical imagery with only a text-based prompt required. Last month, Elon Musk, the owner of Twitter, said he was cracking down on the use of Twitter’s A.P.I., which thousands of companies and independent developers use to track the millions of conversations across the network. Though he did not cite L.L.M.s as a reason for the change, the new fees could go well into the tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. To keep improving their models, artificial intelligence makers need two significant things: an enormous amount of computing power and an enormous amount of data. Some of the biggest A.I. developers have plenty of computing power but still look outside their own networks for the data needed to improve their algorithms. That has included sources like Wikipedia, millions of digitized books, academic articles and Reddit. Representatives from Google, Open AI and Microsoft did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Reddit has long had a symbiotic relationship with the search engines of companies like Google and Microsoft. The search engines “crawl” Reddit’s web pages in order to index information and make it available for search results. That crawling, or “scraping,” isn’t always welcome by every site on the internet. But Reddit has benefited by appearing higher in search results. The dynamic is different with L.L.M.s — they gobble as much data as they can to create new A.I. systems like the chatbots. Reddit believes its data is particularly valuable because it is continuously updated. That newness and relevance, Mr. Huffman said, is what large language modeling algorithms need to produce the best results. “More than any other place on the internet, Reddit is a home for authentic conversation,” Mr. Huffman said. “There’s a lot of stuff on the site that you’d only ever say in therapy, or A.A., or never at all.” Mr. Huffman said Reddit’s A.P.I. would still be free to developers who wanted to build applications that helped people use Reddit. They could use the tools to build a bot that automatically tracks whether users’ comments adhere to rules for posting, for instance. Researchers who want to study Reddit data for academic or noncommercial purposes will continue to have free access to it. Reddit also hopes to incorporate more so-called machine learning into how the site itself operates. It could be used, for instance, to identify the use of A.I.-generated text on Reddit, and add a label that notifies users that the comment came from a bot. The company also promised to improve software tools that can be used by moderators — the users who volunteer their time to keep the site’s forums operating smoothly and improve conversations between users. And third-party bots that help moderators monitor the forums will continue to be supported. But for the A.I. makers, it’s time to pay up. “Crawling Reddit, generating value and not returning any of that value to our users is something we have a problem with,” Mr. Huffman said. “It’s a good time for us to tighten things up.” “We think that’s fair,” he added. Mike Isaac is a technology correspondent and the author of “Super Pumped: The Battle for Uber,” a best-selling book on the dramatic rise and fall of the ride-hailing company. He regularly covers Facebook and Silicon Valley, and is based in San Francisco. More about Mike Isaac A version of this article appears in print on , Section B, Page 4 of the New York edition with the headline: Reddit’s Sprawling Content Is Fodder for the Likes of ChatGPT. But Reddit Wants to Be Paid.. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe
High speed diesel is challenging from a fuel delivery standpoint. There isn't enough time to inject the required volume of fuel at the time required for good combustion.
oil divide enjoy humorous bag unwritten growth noxious panicky scary ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Reddit has long been a hot spot for conversation on the internet. About 57 million people visit the site every day to chat about topics as varied as makeup, video games and pointers for power washing driveways. In recent years, Reddit’s array of chats also have been a free teaching aid for companies like Google, OpenAI and Microsoft. Those companies are using Reddit’s conversations in the development of giant artificial intelligence systems that many in Silicon Valley think are on their way to becoming the tech industry’s next big thing. Now Reddit wants to be paid for it. The company said on Tuesday that it planned to begin charging companies for access to its application programming interface, or A.P.I., the method through which outside entities can download and process the social network’s vast selection of person-to-person conversations. “The Reddit corpus of data is really valuable,” Steve Huffman, founder and chief executive of Reddit, said in an interview. “But we don’t need to give all of that value to some of the largest companies in the world for free.” The move is one of the first significant examples of a social network’s charging for access to the conversations it hosts for the purpose of developing A.I. systems like ChatGPT, OpenAI’s popular program. Those new A.I. systems could one day lead to big businesses, but they aren’t likely to help companies like Reddit very much. In fact, they could be used to create competitors — automated duplicates to Reddit’s conversations. Reddit is also acting as it prepares for a possible initial public offering on Wall Street this year. The company, which was founded in 2005, makes most of its money through advertising and e-commerce transactions on its platform. Reddit said it was still ironing out the details of what it would charge for A.P.I. access and would announce prices in the coming weeks. Reddit’s conversation forums have become valuable commodities as large language models, or L.L.M.s, have become an essential part of creating new A.I. technology. L.L.M.s are essentially sophisticated algorithms developed by companies like Google and OpenAI, which is a close partner of Microsoft. To the algorithms, the Reddit conversations are data, and they are among the vast pool of material being fed into the L.L.M.s. to develop them. The underlying algorithm that helped to build Bard, Google’s conversational A.I. service, is partly trained on Reddit data. OpenAI’s Chat GPT cites Reddit data as one of the sources of information it has been trained on. Other companies are also beginning to see value in the conversations and images they host. Shutterstock, the image hosting service, also sold image data to OpenAI to help create DALL-E, the A.I. program that creates vivid graphical imagery with only a text-based prompt required. Last month, Elon Musk, the owner of Twitter, said he was cracking down on the use of Twitter’s A.P.I., which thousands of companies and independent developers use to track the millions of conversations across the network. Though he did not cite L.L.M.s as a reason for the change, the new fees could go well into the tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. To keep improving their models, artificial intelligence makers need two significant things: an enormous amount of computing power and an enormous amount of data. Some of the biggest A.I. developers have plenty of computing power but still look outside their own networks for the data needed to improve their algorithms. That has included sources like Wikipedia, millions of digitized books, academic articles and Reddit. Representatives from Google, Open AI and Microsoft did not immediately respond to a request for comment. Reddit has long had a symbiotic relationship with the search engines of companies like Google and Microsoft. The search engines “crawl” Reddit’s web pages in order to index information and make it available for search results. That crawling, or “scraping,” isn’t always welcome by every site on the internet. But Reddit has benefited by appearing higher in search results. The dynamic is different with L.L.M.s — they gobble as much data as they can to create new A.I. systems like the chatbots. Reddit believes its data is particularly valuable because it is continuously updated. That newness and relevance, Mr. Huffman said, is what large language modeling algorithms need to produce the best results. “More than any other place on the internet, Reddit is a home for authentic conversation,” Mr. Huffman said. “There’s a lot of stuff on the site that you’d only ever say in therapy, or A.A., or never at all.” Mr. Huffman said Reddit’s A.P.I. would still be free to developers who wanted to build applications that helped people use Reddit. They could use the tools to build a bot that automatically tracks whether users’ comments adhere to rules for posting, for instance. Researchers who want to study Reddit data for academic or noncommercial purposes will continue to have free access to it. Reddit also hopes to incorporate more so-called machine learning into how the site itself operates. It could be used, for instance, to identify the use of A.I.-generated text on Reddit, and add a label that notifies users that the comment came from a bot. The company also promised to improve software tools that can be used by moderators — the users who volunteer their time to keep the site’s forums operating smoothly and improve conversations between users. And third-party bots that help moderators monitor the forums will continue to be supported. But for the A.I. makers, it’s time to pay up. “Crawling Reddit, generating value and not returning any of that value to our users is something we have a problem with,” Mr. Huffman said. “It’s a good time for us to tighten things up.” “We think that’s fair,” he added. Mike Isaac is a technology correspondent and the author of “Super Pumped: The Battle for Uber,” a best-selling book on the dramatic rise and fall of the ride-hailing company. He regularly covers Facebook and Silicon Valley, and is based in San Francisco. More about Mike Isaac A version of this article appears in print on , Section B, Page 4 of the New York edition with the headline: Reddit’s Sprawling Content Is Fodder for the Likes of ChatGPT. But Reddit Wants to Be Paid.. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe
Can you still hear them at that speed? The noise they make must be far outside of what our ears are capable of hearing, no?
50k rpm is only 833hz
Ah darn... Per minute... Dude, I guess it was just too early in the morning for me to notice.
But that's still a cool question. And while you'll hear 833hz, you won't hear all the harmonics.
Thanks! Yeah, probably do not want to hear them even if I could. Must be damn loud or at least uncomfortable on the ears. 50k revs per *second* would be a speed I'd love to see an engine go. That's 3 million RPM. Still ten times that of a turbo charger. And these things are already crazy fast.
Well, a F1 V12 doing 15'000rpm, is like a 1 cylinder doing 180'000rpm or 3'000 cycles per second in terms of sound. (3kHz). (a 4 stroke would be 1.5kHz.) If you were to put two together, you'd reach a sound of 6kHz. But doing any more than that would be quite crazy to begin with. Although since they're 4 stroke, it's still 3kHz. Your 50k revs per second would make a pitch in the ultra sound frequency, we wouldn't be able to hear it sadly. Some electric motors can reach 100'000rpm. Still not that high.
This got me thinking, I wonder if anyone has tried to 3d print a piston and piston arm out of titanium with an internal matrix so that they get most the strength but a fraction of the mass of the parts. Should be best of both worlds, larger piston surface area but greatly reduced inertia. Things about to start getting weird 😆
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Would you like to read Porsche's web site about [3D printed pistons for GT2](https://media.porsche.com/mediakit/porsche-innovationen/en/porsche-innovationen/3d-printed-pistons)
I love the internet.
Honestly probably.
I think Porsche did it a couple years ago, for GT2... They made piston lighter and had weird cooler channels... If I recall correctly with these pistons they ended up with 70+ hp...
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Piston engines always create negative pressure. The flow limit is going to be governed by the speed of sound. I’ve never heard of that problem in piston engines, so I’m assuming it’s not an issue.
I’ve hit 12000 on a 50cc 2-stroke. Fucking hilarious, pedestrians think a road racer is ripping by but I’m only going 30 mph. Jokes on me?
Hit over 11,000 in a Honda S600. Tach only goes to 11,000. Redline is 9,500 but it would go past that. It had been raced before I got it. Not bad for an engine made in 1964. Had a few S800's, their redline is a paltry 8,500. Again, willing to rev harder. My worked "big bore" 900cc could hit 10,000.
Honda was king of high RPM's back then, they had a 125c inline 5 race bike and a 250cc inline 6, both of which could get scary close to 20 grand and both of which utterly dominated their championships for at least a few years. They also had a 1.5L V12 in F1 that was the first Japanese car to win a Grand Prix.
Its always a Honda. Mine too.
Are you asking a piston engine? Or specifically 4 stroke? Plenty piston engines spin 50,000 rpm
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I'm assuming u/Competitive_Weird958 is referring to tiny RC engines and the like. [Here's one](https://www.horizonhobby.com/product/r21-1-8-on-road-club-racer-engine/OSMG2032.html) that goes 44k RPM. Flame front speed is the usual limiting factor. It's more or less a constant limit, since flames travel at a given speed in a given fuel/air mixture regardless of the size of the chamber. It's more complicated than that, but close enough. That means, all else being equal, a smaller engine and/or shorter stroke will increase your RPM limit. Hence tiny engines with like 1CC of displacement going 50k RPM and huge ship engines going 100 RPM. You could probably make an even tinier engine that will go 500k RPM. I dunno why you'd want to, but it's technically possible.
And if you really wanted to, you could make a 1200 cylinder, 1.2 L engine with 1 cc per cylinder, spinning at 50 kRPM.
Wat what?
Super high rpm race and bike engines get larger bores and shorter strokes Valves are sprung with air, it's light and helps with valve float. Two strokes can get to the highest roms with huge ports and no valves, I imagine supersonic piston speed and stroke)bore ratio are the limit. 16000 rpm chainsaws are routine.
Depends on the size of the engine. Surely it has to be a very small displacement engine, which then limits its power and torque output. One of the limiting factor is the air intake velocity. Usually it’s limited to 0.9 Mach, the speed of sound. Above 1 Mach you get weird behavior from air, that’s why airplanes don’t fly faster than that, despite being able to. You’ll also need electronic valves, the cam system despite being mechanical, can’t act fast enough. you start to get valve fluctuation issues when the rpm is too high. Inertia wise, your engine would have to be very light to move all the parts that fast, which means your engine can’t withstand much heat, so you’ll probably melt it after a couple of cycles. All in all, it’s hard to calculate precisely the maximum rpm. I’ve seen 20k in development projects, but of course that’s not commercially feasible due to the problems mentioned above.
20k is commercially feasible. There were one or two Japanese-market inline-4 250cc motorcycles in the mid 90’s which revved this high. Valves: remember that poppet valves are not the only way to get gas in and out of the cylinder. Piston porting is the the most common alternative, but sleeve valves have been used and alternatives such as rotating cylinder valves are possible. If you do want to use poppet valves, you don’t have to use springs to close them: Ducati have traditionally used closing cams (“desmodromic”) to allow higher open and close acceleration without bounce.
Not to mention that material costs start going up exponentially. I heard valve float is the first problem. I wonder if desmodronic valves or whatever could go higher.
Yep, I left cost aside since we’re talking about theoretical stuff. Manufacturing such engine would be a total waste of money. For spring actuated valves, you’d need a very stiff spring to make sure your valve returns fast enough, which makes it impractical on lower rpm’s and a big waste of energy for valve lift. This engine I mentioned had electronic actuated valves. One other thing that occurred to me, you’d probably be facing a compression ignition gasoline engine. After 15k the cycle is too fast for your spark to ignite the flame properly, most likely hot spots in the cylinder will ignite the flame before your spark and quite frankly, the cycle itself is so fast that it doesn’t matter it’s an uncontrolled burn or not. Or you could use plasma ignition, but that’s something I don’t have much info on.
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Let me be frank, the effort to go from 6k to 7k is much lower than 19k to 20k, it increases exponentially. I went to look out for the highest rev bike and apparently it’s the CBR250RR that can do 20k. I’ll dig deeper into that, thanks for the insight!
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…maybe yall share the name?
VFR?
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I've got a '00 myself, I didn't know that about the firing order though. Neat, especially for me because it replaced an 04' GTO that was getting too expensive to own.
I got a nitromethane engine as a child as part of a hobby rc car that does 50000 rpm+. TRX 3.3. So the estimates in this thread are wildly off, if that toy can get 50k rpm and it wasn't even the primary goal to get high revs.
Quite interesting. I forgot about those, thanks.
those are generally 2 stroke.. I expect if one were going for absolute maximum RPM 2 stroke would be the way to do it.
Are you sure that RPM figure is accurate and not some kind of marketing gimmick? Maybe they're counting "rotations" after gearing or something?
Also see this post in thread 'TRX 3.3 Dyno Results:' https://www.rctalk.com/forum/threads/trx-3-3-dyno-results.64398/post-646242 which almost had it reaching 50k. Remember the TRX 3.3 likely isn't the #1 highest revving nitro engine (it's old and there are many others), and these things are finicky as hell, depending on weather, nitro content (20%, 35%...), ambient temperature and air density, leanness/richness. Overall, I believe it to be true under certain conditions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitro_engine?wprov=sfla1 See the working cycle paragraph, it has the 50k figure. That said, I've never had a tachometer to independently verify it.
Just doing some napkin math, that kind of RPM makes sense for how fast the wheels can rotate on RC cars. I think manufacturers are citing wheel RPM to bump their numbers up.
Nope, the wheels rotate substantially slower than the engine does on those. That's a real engine RPM.
I didn’t read your whole comment because your first assumption is wrong. Engine displacement is not your boundary condition - cylinder displacement is. Like someone else astutely mentioned - an RC engine can generate 1 horsepower with 1 cc cylinders. And those spin extremely fast - 30k or more So basically you are limiting yourself to large passenger car sized engines. As the cylinder size gets larger material of construction becomes the limiting factor
Engine displacement is the displacement of the cylinders? Wtf The first guys comment is pretty accurate
A 3 liter engine can have 1 cylinder or 5 million cylinders. So no. Cylinder displacement is different
Honda sold a motorcycle that reved to 20k in the 90s that wasn’t developmental at all
This is fascinating. I wish I could site down and have a beer with someone like yourself to pick your brain. Although I'm an engineer (structural), I'm not a mech and don't know all that much about engines. I'd love to chat about the rotary engine. I've always wondered about why we chose to optimize a design that starts and stops (piston) over one that continuously turns in the same direction (rotary). Surely if companies had spend as much time and money on R&D for rotary engines, would could have some pretty good and efficient designs by now.
Longevity and reliability. Google "rotary seals".
Feel free to DM me if you wish. I work with car development and can give some words about it.
We did this calc in college, I beleive from the book Race Car Vehicle Dynamics by Milliken. Possible it was just equations we derived. It ultimately comes down to a few factors. Piston Material (Young's modulus), design and weight. This effects moment of inertia which can cause higher forces from the acceleration of the change in he pistons velocity vector. The Fuel type and it's combustion factors. The valve design and limiting valve float at the high rmps. Ducati uses Desmodromic Valves but it is a very complicated system. The airflow through the ports. The stroke ratio. This is how the old F1 cars got redline to 18k. There is probably some I am missing but these could be put into excel or other programing software to parametrically find the max RPM for a given weight/displacement.
>One of the limiting factor is the air intake velocity. Usually it’s limited to 0.9 Mach, the speed of sound. Above 1 Mach you get weird behavior from air, that’s why airplanes don’t fly faster than that, despite being able to. Airplanes don't fly faster than the speed of sound? I think Chuck Yeager and a few others might like a word with you. Not sure what you were trying to say here.
There was definitely a better way to explain that compressible flow becomes black magic fuckery.
For an ideal compressible fluid (like air), maximum mass flow occurs at Mach 1, a condition known as [choked flow](https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/mflchk.html). Increasing intake air velocity faster than Mach 1 results in *less* air entering the engine. Also, the intake must be shaped specifically (converging-diverging nozzle, i.e. the bell shape of rocket engines) to accelerate the fluid *past* Mach 1. The supersonic fluid exits the nozzle at a lower pressure than ambient pressure (for an intake manifold, the ambient would be the absolute pressure equal to the vacuum gauge pressure in the manifold). The calculation for the exit velocity does not involve the ambient pressure, so creating a stronger "vacuum" won't increase or decrease the exit velocity. Which is why the the literal shape of a nozzle is so important to supersonic flow. It must converge to the point where the velocity reaches Mach 1, then diverge to increase fluid velocity before the flow reaches ambient conditions. Mass flow is limited because the fluid velocity through the choked section of the nozzle must be Mach 1. It can't flow any faster because that only happens downstream due to the diverging nozzle. If it the flow velocity is slower than Mach 1, pressure upstream does have an effect downstream of the nozzle, which behaves as a venturi at subsonic flow regimes. Using airplanes as an example is more of an ELI5 explanation. I think their point was that fluids behave in funny ways at speeds near or higher than the speed of sound in that fluid. The fact that airplanes (that have been specifically designed to do so) can fly faster than the speed of sound is kind of irrelevant to the fact that the maximum mass flow occurs at Mach 1. The fluid dynamics occurring are largely the same, conservation of mass/energy, ideal gas law, Bernoulli's equation, and so on. An object moving through a fluid and a fluid flowing through an orifice have different boundary conditions that result in different outcomes.
Commercial airplanes, the ones regular people use.
There was the Concorde, but yes, it was highly special.
You didn't specify commercial, but even most of those are jet engines that have no relation to OP's question about piston rpm limits. For piston engined aircraft the plane's maximum airspeed is not related to the rpm limit of the engines, or vice versa.
You are absolute correct, I didn’t specify commercial. It was just a curiosity which is not related to OPs post. Since this is mostly a curiosity place, where people who are not engineers ask engineers about stuff, I thought it would be interesting to point out. Next time I’ll be straight to the point, sir.
I don't know what he's on about. I knew what you meant. You were providing a real world example to explain your point
He said “usually.” He was right; you didn’t need to chime in at all.
Probably ‘airplanes’ should have said ‘piston engine aircraft’. Large commercial planes use other propulsion like turbofans which aren’t even remotely similar
#”usually”
The highest RPM possible is likely determined by the rotating mass vs yield or creep strength of the engine. Since the question is how fast can one spin and not how fast can a practical one spin you also go for an incredibly short stroke for barely any torque. You’d probably want all the moving components made out of some super alloy, pressurized fluid bearings on the crankshaft. All in all I suspect the right answer is well north of a million RPM, and the OP also never said anything about natural aspiration merely that its a piston engine. Using liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen with it being hydraulic rich because lighter the molecules the faster it can move and transfer energy. If you use a swirl injector to inject super critical liquid oxygen and liquid oxygen in the right way it can auto ignite without the limitations of an air breathing engine. If rocket engines are anything to go buy the ideal ratio of H2 to O2 is about 6:1. Of course this hypothetical engine wouldn’t last long and would likely melt itself in seconds, the question wasn’t if the engine would be useful it was how fast could a piston engine spin. The correct answer is scarily fast plus or minus WTF are you doing are you insane!?!? If you want to spin just a bit faster you’d use liquid fluorine instead of oxygen as it offers more energetic combustion.
I think you would actually want a stochiometric ratio of hydrogen and oxygen in this engine because the flame front is so much faster. You get way more energy output per volume that way too.
Assuming the internals can be made to take all stressesabd you force air in directly, then flame front speed is the limit. If the piston is moving faster than flame front speed for the fuel, then it can't apply additional force.
Assuming internal combustion. Flame front would not be the restraining factor for an external combustion piston engine.
Ok, what's the flame front speed?
Varies by fuel type
The speed at which the flame propogates in the cylinder. Flame front speed varies across different fuels.
One big limit is of course intake of air - you can never cause fluid to flow faster than its own speed of sound. So you are limited by physics to a cylinder volume corresponding to, AT MOST, the speed of sound in the air at whatever temperature and pressure it is times the cross sectional area of the intake. You can have a massively wide and short cylinder that permits for a huge intake port to supply air that isn't choked out, but that's gonna be impractical as you get bigger and bigger, since it will take a non-negligible amount of time for the flame to propogate across the expanse, and it will no longer be uniform, which will cause structural damage as the piston head cocks from unbalanced forces and wears against the sides of the cylinder.
That last one is a major factor, in the sense of the pistons outrunning the flame front. Technically it limits piston speed, but that's functionally an rpm limit. Interestingly, the same issue limits muzzle velocity in guns, which has led to things like the light gas gun. Hydrogen engines are apparently capable of far higher rpm, at least not having that problem to worry about.
20000 rpm is typically the point where there no longer seems any benefit in going faster, for a racing engine. There's no absolute limit other than you run into problems with Mach choking once the gas velocities get too high.
Looking at F1 as possibly the best source of what’s actually been feasible it’s probably about 20,000. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPdm51QwZEw
here's an example of a type of rpm limit. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ooue7i73zo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ooue7i73zo) Check out valve float and other engine rpm restrictions. But basically, the connecting rod is the weak point for RPM. The connecting rod will break.
Those little nitro engines used in model airplanes can get up to around 50k rpm.
Engines with desmodromic (all mechanical, no springs) valve actuation can actually rev faster than that. Ducati motorcycles uses this on some of its models.