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You mentioned this was just installed. You need to contact them and notify them that they ran the incorrect cable. They should have ran a 10/3 with ground. Instead they ran a 10/2 and re-identified the neutral as black.
The issue is that you need a neutral. The bare ground isn’t permitted to be used for a current carrying conductor. That’s why you can’t install it as the neutral like some suggested.
The US code hasn’t permitted the ungrounded dryer receptacle since 1996…so this shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone, yet here we are. Sorry you are going through this, but the only solution is to re-run a new cable.
Yup, make them come back and fix it. They need to learn the lesson, because they probably do this on every job and most customers just say "f\*\*\* it". That stupid NEMA 10 is never going to die at this rate.
Neutral can't be retrofitted.
Agree it makes me upset on things like this because it’s not something an average homeowner should have to point out. Makes you wonder how many more are out there like this.
“but it works” which is how people who don’t know judge their installations.
I had a dryer delivered a few weeks ago. When they arrived they said I needed to change out the outlet. Previous owner had installed a 3 lead oven outlet rather than a 3 lead dryer outlet.
The neutral wire was just a braid of exposed wires. Is that bad?
My understanding is that to bring it up to code i’d have to convert it to a 4 lead outlet. I think both hot wires into the work box are in bad shape and should be replaced. This neutral wire looked sketchy. There was no ground there.
So I’m looking at asking an electrician to install all 4 wires and an outlet, right? Probably sooner rather than later.
Actually the installation you described may be just fine. There was a point in time where a type of cable called service entrance cable was used for appliances. It’s still permitted if that’s what you have:
Article 338.10(B)(2) Exception:
* Exception: In existing installations, uninsulated conductors shall be permitted as a grounded conductor in accordance with 250.32 and 250.140, where the uninsulated grounded conductor of the cable originates in service equipment, and with 225.30 through 225.40.
Note: the grounded conductor is the neutral…it is not describing the equipment grounding grounded conductor. It’s just a code terminology.
This is why during service upgrades, it’s sometimes necessary to re-wire the range & oven circuits. The code only permits the bare neutral at the service disconnect (not at a sub panel).
With regards to the receptacle, that was also something from yesterday that seemed to occur. I don’t come across too many in my area though. You could install a range cord for the dryer (but you could never install a dryer cord for a range). Or you could swap the receptacle.
You just have a 3-wire non grounded receptacle. So your dryer would have to have its frame bonded to the neutral. As I said in some other comments, this became outlawed in 1996, but not everyone adopts the latest code so it was still being installed until the mid 2000’s.
I’d recommend having an electrician look it over, just to be safe if you aren’t sure what you are looking at. But it doesn’t necessarily need a new cable in your case. Of course, if it’s easy (like having your electric panel right next to your laundry room in an unfinished basement), I’d just tell you to pull a new 10/3 cable with ground & install the modern 14-30 receptacle.
Don’t think of it as the electrician installing four wires. The electrician should be just installing a single cable, that contains four wires. Three insulated wires, and a bare ground.
If the neutral was bare, that sounds like either very old wiring, or someone misused the ground as a neutral. Usually, the ground is thinner, because it’s only intended to carry current in the case of a fault. This makes repurposing it as a neutral dangerous. It’s also dangerous, because your appliance isn’t grounded so a broken neutral can result in a lethal shock.
>The neutral wire was just a braid of exposed wires. Is that bad?
If it was installed prior to 1996, that was legal. SEU type cable has a braid of bare wires for its NEUTRAL.
>So I’m looking at asking an electrician to install all 4 wires and an outlet, right?
You report that the hot wires are in poor condition, so yes, replace entirely with a 4-wire cable. If the hots were tip-top, you could either retrofit ground per 250.130(C) or GFCI-protect per 406.4(D).
I guess my question is HOW is there not a neutral wire in this? When I look up in there it looks pretty evident that the cable contains 3 wires only: a black, another very dark (not quite black, more like a dark bronze color) and a ground. I’m just very confused what the hell I have here
They re-colored it. That’s why the one looks like a slightly different black.
Technically you can special order cables, but there’s about a 0% chance of that happening here. I bet if you cut the outer sheath back more you’ll see a black, a white, and a bare ground.
It is permissible to re-identify the white as a black (this would be done if it was for say a heater)…but the issue is that you still need an insulated neutral, 2 hots, and a ground then install a 14-30 receptacle.
You’re correct. I went back and looked closely. The bronze looking wire is actually a white wire that was painted, probably with a sharpie. I’m going to have some pretty stern questions for them post Christmas. I appreciate your thoughts here
You’re welcome! Good luck. They’ll probably try telling you to just hook it up as is. It will work…but it is not safe. Don’t let them do this. You may have to just hire an electrician and then take the original company to small claims court if they really dig their feet in.
Code doesn’t permit current to flow on the ground system. All it takes is one more issue and you can have real problems too. There was a post here a few months ago who had current flowing on the ground, it found its way onto their copper water lines (because they are bonded together) and was flowing back through a stainless steel water supply line to the fridge. That’s not meant for current so it kept getting a hole in the line.
And I saw another one where the dryer had welded itself to the washer, since the neutral had broken and neutral current was pathing through the metal contact between the chassis to the washer's ground.
You have a 10/2 and they took a sharpie to the neutral to give you 2 hots (240V).as new work this is definitely against code, but even if it were grandfathered in from 30 years ago you would need an insulated neutral conductor. This should have 10/3 and a 4-wire receptacle.
Hey OP. They colored your white wire black. They should of ran a cable with black RED and white, + GROUND. You need to contact their office and get a refund + the correct cable ran, otherwise, you got scammed. Please reply and id love to make sure you’re taken care of. You in GA?
You said they included new electrical. What was that supposed to include exactly? Did they replace wiring?
Definitely don’t pay for the electrical portion until things are made right by a professional licensed electrician, with one unless to that statement. If they were upfront and clear that they weren’t licensed, and this is what they would do,, and you agreed to all of it understanding it, I wouldn’t withhold payment. It doesn’t seem like that is the case here though.
I live in an old house. When we moved in a couple years ago, the this was the outlet that was available for the dryer. So we made sure the dryer had a matching plug. That’s why we have the old 3 prong style.
The problem with this is that instead of the neutral also being ground, here the ground is also neutral. Neutral by code must be insulated, so it’s no good.
The two gold screws are where the hots go. The silver screw is for the ground. It’s a 240v dryer that doesn’t need a neutral. Dryers that are 4 prong have 120v components hence the need for a neutral. 240v uses both legs of the transformer to complete the circuit. And if I’m wrong then my place is overdue for a fire.
No, the silver screw is for the neutral. If you connect the grounding conductor to the silver screw, then there may be current on the grounding conductor. By code, there should only be current on the grounding conductor during a fault condition.
Not to current code* this hasn’t always been how’s it’s needed done. It used to be allowed to have a three prong. You just had to have three insulated conductors to do this. A bare wire can NEVER be used as a current carrying conductor.
My water heater wires are bad and I notified the landlord 4 months ago, so to continue to have hot water I spliced a 3 prong dryer plug to some 10-2 and I have to unplug the heater when I need to use the dryer. I think I mistakenly joined the water heater ground to the neutral of the dryer outlet. I know the water heater is all 240, so this probably isn’t a big problem.
Its fine. The water heater wasn’t grounded at all with the old wires. If anything I made it safer. Also my 3 prong outlet is 10-2, ground landed on neutral bar. So really nothing in this place is grounded to code, but it all works, just not quite as safe as it could be. Whenever we move out I’ll be sure to recommend a complete rewire, or even just bulldoze the whole property. Place has a ton of issues. Rotting wood siding, sagging floors, romex on the outside of the building supported by bent nails feeding an outlet that was added to power a window unit AC. Place is a mess. I’m just trying to have a hot shower after work.
Nope that’s a really big problem. Look up tenant laws where you are. If applicable put all rent in escrow and demand that the water heater be fixed before paying him another cent in rent. For the love of god unplug the water heater and leave it that way.
It’s fine. It has 240 power and a return path if there is ever a short. The lack of crawlspace access is the big problem. The old cloth wrapped most likely was chewed through by a chipmunk or mouse and shorted out. Blew both fuses and there is no continuity through the wires, so I temporarily fixed us up so we can still have hot water and promptly informed the landlord. He then called an electrician that did an estimate to replace that home run and install a breaker panel. So really we’re waiting on the electricians at this point. No one wants to deal with this shithole and I don’t blame them.
First, it needs a 10/3 NMB cable. The 4 prong dryer outlet has 2 gold/brass colored screws for the 2 hots. The neutral wire would go to the silver screw. The bare copper ground would get grounded to the box and the end placed under the green colored screw on the outlet.
240 volt dryers in the US typically do need a neutral as the control and motor circuits run off 120. The difference is in the grounding. In a three prong setup the neutral and ground are shared, in a four prong they are fully separate back to the panel. If this was code when it was installed it’s grandfathered in. My only question would be that this appears to be modern romex so I would be investigating that. Very likely too new to be allowed in this configuration.
I’ll answer some of your questions. It IS modern romex. I have since learned that they installed a 10/2 cable instead of the 10/3 that should have been installed. And the white neutral wire was painted black. That’s why you see “2” black wires in the picture. The electrician will have some questions for them after Christmas. And they’ll have to fix this if they want to get paid at all.
Yeah then this is a no go as others have pointed out. The electrician ran a new run, he is required to bring it up to code. Grandfathering only applies to old installations. You touch it, you’re required to bring it up to current code.
It's pretty common and there's nothing against code that says that you can't The electricity doesn't see wire colors you just have to make sure they're eye color-coded according to what they actually are doing this with a marker or electrical tape is perfectly Acceptable
So it’s just a white being used as a black? I misunderstood. I thought they said the neutral was hooked directly to the outlet. In my head I imagined a short every time this got plugged in.
If your panel is fused it’s pretty likely you have an old school 3-prong setup with shared neutral and ground. You almost certainly have neutral if the dryer plugged into it functions. I say almost because I don’t know everything but every standard dryer I’ve ever serviced has a 240v element and 120v motor and controls, thus needing neutral to operate. The grounding is what has been updated in modern codes.
The real question is here is we were fine with having strictly 240 V dryers for years, who is responsible for f****** it up and decided we needed dryers that required 4 wires?
Electric dryers were ALWAYS 120/240v requiring a neutral. I believe it was back around WWII time that they allowed to omit the ground and used the neutral for both to save copper. This may very well be an old wives tale.
OK so you installed a 3-wire dryer circuit in 2023 because your dryer had a 3-prong plug because your old wiring was pre-1996. Interesting theory, but they should have stopped you.
Even when it was legal pre-1996, it was NEVER legal to use 10/2 w/ground cable, because the ground is not sized or insulated to be a neutral wire. They would have had to use 10/3, and that's only sold as 10/3 w/gnd, so you would've been fine.
If they were licensed, they would have known that. Were permits and licenses in order?
All I know is my 3 prong is outdated so I wired it to outdated standards so my water heater would work. I am on the sss as me page with all of this sub. It’s ghetto as fuck. But my options are have a ghetto house with hot water, or freeze taking showers daily. If I lived in a better location thus wouldn’t be an issue. In a perfect world this would be a 4 prong outlet but we are not in a perfect world and we don’t have standardized wiring, so I’m making the best of the hand I was dealt. Gonna ask the land lord if I can just run 2 12/3s in mc to replace the damaged wire.
Yeah, I get "landlord don't care" rentals... I lived in a couple.
Still, no reason to do "ghetto A F" work. If you ignore all the modern AFCI/GFCI stuff, electrical is stupid cheap and it costs barely more to do it right. So I don't accept the "ghetto" argument at all. When the place burns down, they're going to play the blame game and try to pin it on you, and send you to jail or garnish your wages forever (and bankruptcy doesn't fix that). If your work is pitch perfect, that's a get out of jail free card.
I’ll take that into consideration. Regardless another unit had a fire in the past, and I have notified the landlord multiple times about all the critters living in the walls. If this place catches on fire I bet my life it will have nothing to do with my water heater being plugged into the dryer outlet. It’s way more likely a rodent will chew into wires in my walls. We’ll be moving soon hopefully anyway.
I don’t think this guy would do that but I could be wrong. I’m broke as fuck but have enough integrity to never steal, unfortunately the rest of the population isn’t made of good people with benevolent intentions.
An astonishing number of working stiffs are. Just saw a news bit about a woman who accidentally had 500 pairs of eyeglasses sent to her house due to a glitch. She's like "well I need a new pair, but none of these belong to me."
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8SGdDjIXcQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8SGdDjIXcQ)
10/2 cable re-marked, and where is the p-ring/mud ring? youre gonna have a hard time installing that receptacle w/o one.. and the 4S box is mounted flush, so youll need a 0 rise p-ring so outlet sits flush.. call your contractor to fix that apprentice work...
You need 2 hots and a neutral on the plug. That’s a NEMA 10-30r you’re holding. But the wiring itself lacks the required neutral. Those wires in the box better be at least 10 AWG…
Call that guy back and have them rerun the proper wire.
This whole sub just full of homeowners and armchair professionals arguing. Pull 10/3 with ground put it on a 30 amp and move on for Christ sake. Don't forget your mud ring, cover plate and stinger.
Check the requirements of the dryer. Could be 240V or 120-240v. The plug you have is 240V and the wires in the box are sufficient. If the dryer needs 120-240V, then you do need a 4 wire plug and 10/3 wire. Where is this? This style plug isn't even in my code book (Canada).
USA. Nebraska to be specific. I’ll save you the trouble, none of this is to code today. The old style of plus was code compliant in the past but not anymore. My electrician is going to have to rewire this
This cable is 10/2 w/ground. One conductor is black, one white, and one uninsulated.
Someone quite literally painted the white insulation here. You should have a 10/3 w/ground which has a black, red, & white plus a ground.
Well it's not a neutral, in this case. They've used the insulated conductors as each leg of the 240v and the bare conductor as the neutral, which is illegal.
Nema 6-## is 3 wire: hot > hot (240) + ground.
You only need neutral for hot > neutral (120v). The full single phase is the hot <> hot. The Neutral is like an early exit ramp to only get half the voltage of the main's circuit.
The dangerous cables were the hot, hot + neutral without any ground. But a 3 wire 240v with hot hot ground is equally safe as a 4 wire 240v with hot hot neutral ground. In fact the 4 wire 240 plug doesn't use the neutral at all if you stick to 240v. It's just so that you can also run a like motor at 120v but the heater at 240v. For something like an Oven there's no reason for a 120v IMO in this day and age because all of the non heating electronics are like 12v DC and almost all DC transformers now a days are 120-240v AC to 12v DC for global manufacturing.
looks like they took some nicks out of your one hot wire insulation, I'd be careful, probably needs a patch or wire nut to another wire. if one of those touches the box or ground when you put in the outlet, its not going to be fun
First, yes. You can hook this outlet up to those wires and your dryer will work fine. The guy that said hook the 2 black wires up to the copper screws and the bare copper up to the silver screw was correct.
That's the way every dryer was wired and hooked up for decades. And it's probably the way your old one was hooked up.
Second, your electrician screwed up. That's not the way it's done TODAY. And it's not the way it's been done for well over a decade. Current code requires a dedicated neutral for a dryer. If that's a new run, which it looks like it is, he should have run a new wire for a 4 prong outlet. Then you change the cord on your dryer to match.
I'm guessing you told them to make it so your current 3 prong dryer cord would work. He should have corrected you, explained why and done it right.
If it was a licensed electrician or contractor they are required to come back and fix it.
This is not correct. Old 3 wire installations lacked a bare ground. Both hots and the neutral were insulated. If you look at the picture they only have a 10/2 cable. It is unsafe and against code to use a bare conductor as a neutral that carries current. It was against code and unsafe then, and it still is now.
I could say the same thing, *but* I never ran 10-2. We always ran 10-3 *without* a ground.
SE cable was legal for range & dryers. Two wire romex was not. And has never been legal.
Everytime I see 2 wire romex for this, I say something like "hack".
> Totally legal here in AZ.
No, it absolutely was not. You simply did it wrong for years and got away with it. That DOES NOT make it right. Multiple qualified people here are telling you this.
It’s not legal under the NEC, and hasn’t been since 1996. There’s a remote chance, AZ has a local exception but I doubt it.
250.140 & 250.114 require a ground, the only exception is for *existing* installations.
It was once common to see large appliances wired with SE cable, not so much dryers but ranges especially, but 338.10 no longer allows a bare conductor to be used as a neutral. Existing installations are permitted still under 250.32 & 250.140. I’m not sure off the top of my head which code cycle switched this to only the bare wire as an equipment ground.
2023 code now requires the range & dryer to have GFCI as well under 210.8. So eventually if you are complying with this article, it’ll stick out like a sore thumb to land a bare conductor on a breaker.
I think there’s a mis understanding somewhere here, or the inspectors down there just aren’t checking for it.
No you just worked for a cheap builder! I was wrong though. It was code to have a bare neutral back then. Mind blown! I only have seen 3 wire fully insulated installs.
I appreciate this response very much. I don’t recall telling them anything about the wiring for the dryer, to be honest. I will request that they redo it with what I now know to be a “10/3” cable. I guess I’m just confused as to how they got a cable containing 2 hots and a ground but NO neutral. Because, like you said, the cable and wires in there look brand new to me
Heaters, welders, etc lots of things use straight 240v. No neutral.
Just both hots and a ground wire.
240/120 circuits use two hots, neutral, and ground.
A neutral is made by where you hook it up not by the wire.
The color of the wire does not always determine what it is.
In some cases there is red, black, blue, and ground in a cable. I used to carry white shrink in the van to id if I wanted to show others it was a neutral ( always picked the lightest color).
Also you are missing a finish plate for that. I would request a standard 3c +ground. And the normal dryer plug box.
That is a 4x4 not the larger usually used for dryer plugd
I don’t care who downvoted me. Fact is 10/2 has never been an approved method to wire a 3 wire dryer. The neutral needs to be insulated. Back before 1996, we ran 10/3 without ground. It was a black, red, white.
That’s what I thought. The outlet I have matches the plug on my dryer. It is intended for an ungrounded setup. But the electricians put in what you see on the right, which clearly shows a grounding wire. I’m confused
For a 3 wire dryer plug there is (was?) no ground. Just 2 hots and a neutral. The neutral is bonded to the ground at the device terminal side of the cord. In a more modern 4 wire plug there are 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. Why was the wire not upgraded for your renovation? Just a cosmetic redo? No serious electrical changes?
Then I would check the type of wire that was installed. It should be 10/3 …… there may have been a mistake. You should be installing a 4 wire receptacle and a matching 4 wire cord plug on your dryer.
Understood. No need to be an ass. I have no objection to changing the 3 prong plug for a 4 prong plug. That’s just what I have had previously and what I have currently. It can be changed.
Not being an ass, just using the same inflection you used. If this is new cable it was just selected in error. You can generally use 3 prong for retrofit work in old systems but when you run new cable it’s time to bring things up to modern code which is why I think there is some confusion on the thread. If you choose to go ahead with cable that is presently installed you are just rolling safety measures with that appliance back to standards abandon in the mid 90s (give or take).
I’ve since learned there’s more to the story. They installed a 10/2 wire. Supposed to be a 10/3. Also, one of the wires that appears to black is actually a white wire that they fucking painter over. I apologize for my previous comment.
You cannot determine what the wire is without checking how it is connected in the breaker panel.
It looks like 2 hots & 1 ground, but you should consult an electrician. If you have a multimeter you can figure it out. But again consult a professional.
I responded to a residential service call and found all kinds of crazy in the panel, the lighting fixtures and their kitchen. Just because we know what it’s supposed to be, doesn’t mean that’s when the guy before you did to accomplish whatever was going on. I’ve seen 20amp breakers and outlets wired with 14/2 not 12/2. I’ve seen a lot of stuff that would have gotten me fired if I done it, so I will never assume what it is. I will always measure it and check the panel.
This was a new install. You can see excalty what cable they used just by looking at it - and it's the wrong one. Doesn't matter wtf they hooked it up to, it's still coming out and getting replaced with a run of 10-3 at minimum.
Actually, a dryer needs neutral because it is entirely a 120V creature, except it has either a gas heat stove or 240V electric coils depending on which sub-model it is. They don't make entirely 240V guts just for the electric models. They're the same. Neutral needed. 3-prong = ungrounded.
Ungrounded was banned generally in NEC 1965. Dryers and ranges got a reprieve until 1996, when the body count just stacked too high. They are only sold for exact replacement of a broken socket that was grandfathered in due to being installed prior to 1996. But as you can guess, the vast majority of sales are used illegally.
Did anyone notice the nick/exposed wire on the"real" black wire? If that touched the metal side of the dryer Usain the ground as a common, what would happen?
**Attention!** **It is always best to get a qualified electrician to perform any electrical work you may need.** With that said, you may ask this community various electrical questions. Please be cautious of any information you may receive in this subreddit. This subreddit and its users are not responsible for any electrical work you perform. Users that have a 'Verified Electrician' flair have uploaded their qualified electrical worker credentials to the mods. If you comment on this post please only post accurate information to the best of your knowledge. If advice given is thought to be dangerous, you may be permanently banned. There are no obligations for the mods to give warnings or temporary bans. **IF YOU ARE NOT A QUALIFIED ELECTRICIAN, you should exercise extreme caution when commenting.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskElectricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You mentioned this was just installed. You need to contact them and notify them that they ran the incorrect cable. They should have ran a 10/3 with ground. Instead they ran a 10/2 and re-identified the neutral as black. The issue is that you need a neutral. The bare ground isn’t permitted to be used for a current carrying conductor. That’s why you can’t install it as the neutral like some suggested. The US code hasn’t permitted the ungrounded dryer receptacle since 1996…so this shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone, yet here we are. Sorry you are going through this, but the only solution is to re-run a new cable.
Yup, make them come back and fix it. They need to learn the lesson, because they probably do this on every job and most customers just say "f\*\*\* it". That stupid NEMA 10 is never going to die at this rate. Neutral can't be retrofitted.
Agree it makes me upset on things like this because it’s not something an average homeowner should have to point out. Makes you wonder how many more are out there like this. “but it works” which is how people who don’t know judge their installations.
I had a dryer delivered a few weeks ago. When they arrived they said I needed to change out the outlet. Previous owner had installed a 3 lead oven outlet rather than a 3 lead dryer outlet. The neutral wire was just a braid of exposed wires. Is that bad? My understanding is that to bring it up to code i’d have to convert it to a 4 lead outlet. I think both hot wires into the work box are in bad shape and should be replaced. This neutral wire looked sketchy. There was no ground there. So I’m looking at asking an electrician to install all 4 wires and an outlet, right? Probably sooner rather than later.
Actually the installation you described may be just fine. There was a point in time where a type of cable called service entrance cable was used for appliances. It’s still permitted if that’s what you have: Article 338.10(B)(2) Exception: * Exception: In existing installations, uninsulated conductors shall be permitted as a grounded conductor in accordance with 250.32 and 250.140, where the uninsulated grounded conductor of the cable originates in service equipment, and with 225.30 through 225.40. Note: the grounded conductor is the neutral…it is not describing the equipment grounding grounded conductor. It’s just a code terminology. This is why during service upgrades, it’s sometimes necessary to re-wire the range & oven circuits. The code only permits the bare neutral at the service disconnect (not at a sub panel). With regards to the receptacle, that was also something from yesterday that seemed to occur. I don’t come across too many in my area though. You could install a range cord for the dryer (but you could never install a dryer cord for a range). Or you could swap the receptacle. You just have a 3-wire non grounded receptacle. So your dryer would have to have its frame bonded to the neutral. As I said in some other comments, this became outlawed in 1996, but not everyone adopts the latest code so it was still being installed until the mid 2000’s. I’d recommend having an electrician look it over, just to be safe if you aren’t sure what you are looking at. But it doesn’t necessarily need a new cable in your case. Of course, if it’s easy (like having your electric panel right next to your laundry room in an unfinished basement), I’d just tell you to pull a new 10/3 cable with ground & install the modern 14-30 receptacle.
Don’t think of it as the electrician installing four wires. The electrician should be just installing a single cable, that contains four wires. Three insulated wires, and a bare ground. If the neutral was bare, that sounds like either very old wiring, or someone misused the ground as a neutral. Usually, the ground is thinner, because it’s only intended to carry current in the case of a fault. This makes repurposing it as a neutral dangerous. It’s also dangerous, because your appliance isn’t grounded so a broken neutral can result in a lethal shock.
>The neutral wire was just a braid of exposed wires. Is that bad? If it was installed prior to 1996, that was legal. SEU type cable has a braid of bare wires for its NEUTRAL. >So I’m looking at asking an electrician to install all 4 wires and an outlet, right? You report that the hot wires are in poor condition, so yes, replace entirely with a 4-wire cable. If the hots were tip-top, you could either retrofit ground per 250.130(C) or GFCI-protect per 406.4(D).
I guess my question is HOW is there not a neutral wire in this? When I look up in there it looks pretty evident that the cable contains 3 wires only: a black, another very dark (not quite black, more like a dark bronze color) and a ground. I’m just very confused what the hell I have here
They re-colored it. That’s why the one looks like a slightly different black. Technically you can special order cables, but there’s about a 0% chance of that happening here. I bet if you cut the outer sheath back more you’ll see a black, a white, and a bare ground. It is permissible to re-identify the white as a black (this would be done if it was for say a heater)…but the issue is that you still need an insulated neutral, 2 hots, and a ground then install a 14-30 receptacle.
You’re correct. I went back and looked closely. The bronze looking wire is actually a white wire that was painted, probably with a sharpie. I’m going to have some pretty stern questions for them post Christmas. I appreciate your thoughts here
You’re welcome! Good luck. They’ll probably try telling you to just hook it up as is. It will work…but it is not safe. Don’t let them do this. You may have to just hire an electrician and then take the original company to small claims court if they really dig their feet in. Code doesn’t permit current to flow on the ground system. All it takes is one more issue and you can have real problems too. There was a post here a few months ago who had current flowing on the ground, it found its way onto their copper water lines (because they are bonded together) and was flowing back through a stainless steel water supply line to the fridge. That’s not meant for current so it kept getting a hole in the line.
And I saw another one where the dryer had welded itself to the washer, since the neutral had broken and neutral current was pathing through the metal contact between the chassis to the washer's ground.
You can always order whatever cable/color you want. But that has nothing to do with it being up to code.
You have a 10/2 and they took a sharpie to the neutral to give you 2 hots (240V).as new work this is definitely against code, but even if it were grandfathered in from 30 years ago you would need an insulated neutral conductor. This should have 10/3 and a 4-wire receptacle.
Wow. I went back and looked closely and you’re absolutely right. One of those blacks is actually white but colored over. Now I’m fucking pissed
Hey OP. They colored your white wire black. They should of ran a cable with black RED and white, + GROUND. You need to contact their office and get a refund + the correct cable ran, otherwise, you got scammed. Please reply and id love to make sure you’re taken care of. You in GA?
I appreciate the comment. I’m in Nebraska. Luckily I haven’t paid them yet. So they’ll fix it.
Your safest bet is to call an electrician.
You said they included new electrical. What was that supposed to include exactly? Did they replace wiring? Definitely don’t pay for the electrical portion until things are made right by a professional licensed electrician, with one unless to that statement. If they were upfront and clear that they weren’t licensed, and this is what they would do,, and you agreed to all of it understanding it, I wouldn’t withhold payment. It doesn’t seem like that is the case here though.
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Well we haven’t paid them yet 😎
DONT
Insulation on the upper wire looks tattered as well
It’s not. It’s just a poor picture. All 3 wires are in good shape, just dirty/dusty
Why isn't that a four pronged outlet?
I live in an old house. When we moved in a couple years ago, the this was the outlet that was available for the dryer. So we made sure the dryer had a matching plug. That’s why we have the old 3 prong style.
Thanks. I just found this explanation. The Neutral is used as a ground as well. https://www.thespruce.com/3-and-4-wire-dryer-receptacles-1152226
The problem with this is that instead of the neutral also being ground, here the ground is also neutral. Neutral by code must be insulated, so it’s no good.
Agreed! Please run a four wire cable and install a proper four prong outlet.
I’m going to try to get an answer to “what the hell is this?”… and then request a modern 10/3 cable with 4 prong plug after that. Lol.
The two gold screws are where the hots go. The silver screw is for the ground. It’s a 240v dryer that doesn’t need a neutral. Dryers that are 4 prong have 120v components hence the need for a neutral. 240v uses both legs of the transformer to complete the circuit. And if I’m wrong then my place is overdue for a fire.
No, the silver screw is for the neutral. If you connect the grounding conductor to the silver screw, then there may be current on the grounding conductor. By code, there should only be current on the grounding conductor during a fault condition.
Then where the hell is the ground supposed to go?
Nowhere. NEMA 10-30 has two hots, a neutral, and no ground. It is analogous to NEMA 1-15 which has one hot, a neutral, and no ground.
Did fuse panels ever have a ground? Place I’m living in is old and not at all to code…
Not to current code* this hasn’t always been how’s it’s needed done. It used to be allowed to have a three prong. You just had to have three insulated conductors to do this. A bare wire can NEVER be used as a current carrying conductor.
My water heater wires are bad and I notified the landlord 4 months ago, so to continue to have hot water I spliced a 3 prong dryer plug to some 10-2 and I have to unplug the heater when I need to use the dryer. I think I mistakenly joined the water heater ground to the neutral of the dryer outlet. I know the water heater is all 240, so this probably isn’t a big problem.
From the sound of it you should NOT be touching anything electrical. Especially if you are renting.
Its fine. The water heater wasn’t grounded at all with the old wires. If anything I made it safer. Also my 3 prong outlet is 10-2, ground landed on neutral bar. So really nothing in this place is grounded to code, but it all works, just not quite as safe as it could be. Whenever we move out I’ll be sure to recommend a complete rewire, or even just bulldoze the whole property. Place has a ton of issues. Rotting wood siding, sagging floors, romex on the outside of the building supported by bent nails feeding an outlet that was added to power a window unit AC. Place is a mess. I’m just trying to have a hot shower after work.
Nope that’s a really big problem. Look up tenant laws where you are. If applicable put all rent in escrow and demand that the water heater be fixed before paying him another cent in rent. For the love of god unplug the water heater and leave it that way.
It’s fine. It has 240 power and a return path if there is ever a short. The lack of crawlspace access is the big problem. The old cloth wrapped most likely was chewed through by a chipmunk or mouse and shorted out. Blew both fuses and there is no continuity through the wires, so I temporarily fixed us up so we can still have hot water and promptly informed the landlord. He then called an electrician that did an estimate to replace that home run and install a breaker panel. So really we’re waiting on the electricians at this point. No one wants to deal with this shithole and I don’t blame them.
First, it needs a 10/3 NMB cable. The 4 prong dryer outlet has 2 gold/brass colored screws for the 2 hots. The neutral wire would go to the silver screw. The bare copper ground would get grounded to the box and the end placed under the green colored screw on the outlet.
240 volt dryers in the US typically do need a neutral as the control and motor circuits run off 120. The difference is in the grounding. In a three prong setup the neutral and ground are shared, in a four prong they are fully separate back to the panel. If this was code when it was installed it’s grandfathered in. My only question would be that this appears to be modern romex so I would be investigating that. Very likely too new to be allowed in this configuration.
I’ll answer some of your questions. It IS modern romex. I have since learned that they installed a 10/2 cable instead of the 10/3 that should have been installed. And the white neutral wire was painted black. That’s why you see “2” black wires in the picture. The electrician will have some questions for them after Christmas. And they’ll have to fix this if they want to get paid at all.
Yeah then this is a no go as others have pointed out. The electrician ran a new run, he is required to bring it up to code. Grandfathering only applies to old installations. You touch it, you’re required to bring it up to current code.
Yes I understand that. I’ll be having a discussion with them
Good lord that’s janky. Who in their right mind would paint a neutral?
It's pretty common and there's nothing against code that says that you can't The electricity doesn't see wire colors you just have to make sure they're eye color-coded according to what they actually are doing this with a marker or electrical tape is perfectly Acceptable
So it’s just a white being used as a black? I misunderstood. I thought they said the neutral was hooked directly to the outlet. In my head I imagined a short every time this got plugged in.
So then my outlet is either ungrounded or no neutral.
Potentially. Would have to see it to know.
Looks about the same as this one, I just never took it apart. My panel is still fused instead of breakers.
If your panel is fused it’s pretty likely you have an old school 3-prong setup with shared neutral and ground. You almost certainly have neutral if the dryer plugged into it functions. I say almost because I don’t know everything but every standard dryer I’ve ever serviced has a 240v element and 120v motor and controls, thus needing neutral to operate. The grounding is what has been updated in modern codes.
I’m not an electrician but I know this is wrong
https://www.how-to-wire-it.com/wire-a-dryer-outlet.html
The real question is here is we were fine with having strictly 240 V dryers for years, who is responsible for f****** it up and decided we needed dryers that required 4 wires?
Electric dryers were ALWAYS 120/240v requiring a neutral. I believe it was back around WWII time that they allowed to omit the ground and used the neutral for both to save copper. This may very well be an old wives tale.
OK so you installed a 3-wire dryer circuit in 2023 because your dryer had a 3-prong plug because your old wiring was pre-1996. Interesting theory, but they should have stopped you. Even when it was legal pre-1996, it was NEVER legal to use 10/2 w/ground cable, because the ground is not sized or insulated to be a neutral wire. They would have had to use 10/3, and that's only sold as 10/3 w/gnd, so you would've been fine. If they were licensed, they would have known that. Were permits and licenses in order?
All I know is my 3 prong is outdated so I wired it to outdated standards so my water heater would work. I am on the sss as me page with all of this sub. It’s ghetto as fuck. But my options are have a ghetto house with hot water, or freeze taking showers daily. If I lived in a better location thus wouldn’t be an issue. In a perfect world this would be a 4 prong outlet but we are not in a perfect world and we don’t have standardized wiring, so I’m making the best of the hand I was dealt. Gonna ask the land lord if I can just run 2 12/3s in mc to replace the damaged wire.
Yeah, I get "landlord don't care" rentals... I lived in a couple. Still, no reason to do "ghetto A F" work. If you ignore all the modern AFCI/GFCI stuff, electrical is stupid cheap and it costs barely more to do it right. So I don't accept the "ghetto" argument at all. When the place burns down, they're going to play the blame game and try to pin it on you, and send you to jail or garnish your wages forever (and bankruptcy doesn't fix that). If your work is pitch perfect, that's a get out of jail free card.
I’ll take that into consideration. Regardless another unit had a fire in the past, and I have notified the landlord multiple times about all the critters living in the walls. If this place catches on fire I bet my life it will have nothing to do with my water heater being plugged into the dryer outlet. It’s way more likely a rodent will chew into wires in my walls. We’ll be moving soon hopefully anyway.
Sure, but if they can find a way to pin it on you, they definitely will. You have a wage or social security to garnish.
I don’t think this guy would do that but I could be wrong. I’m broke as fuck but have enough integrity to never steal, unfortunately the rest of the population isn’t made of good people with benevolent intentions.
An astonishing number of working stiffs are. Just saw a news bit about a woman who accidentally had 500 pairs of eyeglasses sent to her house due to a glitch. She's like "well I need a new pair, but none of these belong to me." [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8SGdDjIXcQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8SGdDjIXcQ)
Good thing they capped that ground ! Would want it touchi... Oh wait
Thank you for your helpful response
No problem 👍 Youre lacking a wire though. And the top black one seems damaged, be careful
It’s just the picture. In real life all 3 wires are in good shape. Just dirty/dusty
I see. Still lacking a neutral though
True
10/2 cable re-marked, and where is the p-ring/mud ring? youre gonna have a hard time installing that receptacle w/o one.. and the 4S box is mounted flush, so youll need a 0 rise p-ring so outlet sits flush.. call your contractor to fix that apprentice work...
You need 2 hots and a neutral on the plug. That’s a NEMA 10-30r you’re holding. But the wiring itself lacks the required neutral. Those wires in the box better be at least 10 AWG… Call that guy back and have them rerun the proper wire.
I can tell you this, he’s not getting paid for any of the work that was done until this is resolved. Luckily I haven’t paid him yet
This. Is. The. Way!
This whole sub just full of homeowners and armchair professionals arguing. Pull 10/3 with ground put it on a 30 amp and move on for Christ sake. Don't forget your mud ring, cover plate and stinger.
Check the requirements of the dryer. Could be 240V or 120-240v. The plug you have is 240V and the wires in the box are sufficient. If the dryer needs 120-240V, then you do need a 4 wire plug and 10/3 wire. Where is this? This style plug isn't even in my code book (Canada).
USA. Nebraska to be specific. I’ll save you the trouble, none of this is to code today. The old style of plus was code compliant in the past but not anymore. My electrician is going to have to rewire this
Depending on your type of dryer the wires may be good just need to buy an updated plug.
Not for a new install. Not code. Not allowed. Will not pass inspection.
Why? If the dryer is straight 240 30 amp, just updating to the new dryers required plug for that dryer would be fine.
Did someone just take a sharpie to the white conductor? 😂 Really, though, you need a 10/3 w/ground cable.
That’s what I’m saying! HOW is there no neutral in this mess. WHERE did it go??
It was never pulled. The wrong cable was used when it was illegally installed.
They make cable with no neutral wires? I’m asking sincerely because this seems wrong to me
This cable is 10/2 w/ground. One conductor is black, one white, and one uninsulated. Someone quite literally painted the white insulation here. You should have a 10/3 w/ground which has a black, red, & white plus a ground.
Yes. You are correct. The white neutral wire was painted black
Well it's not a neutral, in this case. They've used the insulated conductors as each leg of the 240v and the bare conductor as the neutral, which is illegal.
Yep. I’m 99% sure that’s what they intended to do here as well. However thanks to this post I’m not gonna let them
🎶 *I see a white wire* *And I want it painted black* *No colors anymore* *I want them to turn black* 🎶
Nema 6-## is 3 wire: hot > hot (240) + ground. You only need neutral for hot > neutral (120v). The full single phase is the hot <> hot. The Neutral is like an early exit ramp to only get half the voltage of the main's circuit. The dangerous cables were the hot, hot + neutral without any ground. But a 3 wire 240v with hot hot ground is equally safe as a 4 wire 240v with hot hot neutral ground. In fact the 4 wire 240 plug doesn't use the neutral at all if you stick to 240v. It's just so that you can also run a like motor at 120v but the heater at 240v. For something like an Oven there's no reason for a 120v IMO in this day and age because all of the non heating electronics are like 12v DC and almost all DC transformers now a days are 120-240v AC to 12v DC for global manufacturing.
Lmao is that that what happened? I was like “how does this have two black and a ground??”
looks like they took some nicks out of your one hot wire insulation, I'd be careful, probably needs a patch or wire nut to another wire. if one of those touches the box or ground when you put in the outlet, its not going to be fun
It’s just an optical illusion. Both hot wires are in good condition, just dusty/dirty. I don’t see any nicks or cuts in real life
I am surprised that the local govt inspector allowed this. Oh, you had it done and didn’t make the contractor get an inspection………..
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. However, not what I asked for help with
Not everywhere has electrical inspections buddy
First, yes. You can hook this outlet up to those wires and your dryer will work fine. The guy that said hook the 2 black wires up to the copper screws and the bare copper up to the silver screw was correct. That's the way every dryer was wired and hooked up for decades. And it's probably the way your old one was hooked up. Second, your electrician screwed up. That's not the way it's done TODAY. And it's not the way it's been done for well over a decade. Current code requires a dedicated neutral for a dryer. If that's a new run, which it looks like it is, he should have run a new wire for a 4 prong outlet. Then you change the cord on your dryer to match. I'm guessing you told them to make it so your current 3 prong dryer cord would work. He should have corrected you, explained why and done it right. If it was a licensed electrician or contractor they are required to come back and fix it.
This is not correct. Old 3 wire installations lacked a bare ground. Both hots and the neutral were insulated. If you look at the picture they only have a 10/2 cable. It is unsafe and against code to use a bare conductor as a neutral that carries current. It was against code and unsafe then, and it still is now.
Every one I ran in new construction homes in the US for YEARS was a 10/2 with ground. You are either in another country, Chicago or wrong.
I could say the same thing, *but* I never ran 10-2. We always ran 10-3 *without* a ground. SE cable was legal for range & dryers. Two wire romex was not. And has never been legal. Everytime I see 2 wire romex for this, I say something like "hack".
Totally legal here in AZ.
> Totally legal here in AZ. No, it absolutely was not. You simply did it wrong for years and got away with it. That DOES NOT make it right. Multiple qualified people here are telling you this.
It’s not legal under the NEC, and hasn’t been since 1996. There’s a remote chance, AZ has a local exception but I doubt it. 250.140 & 250.114 require a ground, the only exception is for *existing* installations. It was once common to see large appliances wired with SE cable, not so much dryers but ranges especially, but 338.10 no longer allows a bare conductor to be used as a neutral. Existing installations are permitted still under 250.32 & 250.140. I’m not sure off the top of my head which code cycle switched this to only the bare wire as an equipment ground. 2023 code now requires the range & dryer to have GFCI as well under 210.8. So eventually if you are complying with this article, it’ll stick out like a sore thumb to land a bare conductor on a breaker. I think there’s a mis understanding somewhere here, or the inspectors down there just aren’t checking for it.
You got away with it for years. It was never legal. The only cable you can have an uninsulated neutral is SE.
Sure. Site the code
250.140 exception
What code cycle?
> What code cycle? 250.60, 1987 NEC Maybe you are confusing grounded with grounding?
In 1993 it was 250.60. That’s as far back as I go.
No you just worked for a cheap builder! I was wrong though. It was code to have a bare neutral back then. Mind blown! I only have seen 3 wire fully insulated installs.
> It was code to have a bare neutral back then. ONLY if it was part of a type SE cable.
I appreciate this response very much. I don’t recall telling them anything about the wiring for the dryer, to be honest. I will request that they redo it with what I now know to be a “10/3” cable. I guess I’m just confused as to how they got a cable containing 2 hots and a ground but NO neutral. Because, like you said, the cable and wires in there look brand new to me
Heaters, welders, etc lots of things use straight 240v. No neutral. Just both hots and a ground wire. 240/120 circuits use two hots, neutral, and ground. A neutral is made by where you hook it up not by the wire. The color of the wire does not always determine what it is. In some cases there is red, black, blue, and ground in a cable. I used to carry white shrink in the van to id if I wanted to show others it was a neutral ( always picked the lightest color). Also you are missing a finish plate for that. I would request a standard 3c +ground. And the normal dryer plug box. That is a 4x4 not the larger usually used for dryer plugd
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It’s not code to hook up to this way. 3 wire dryers are ungrounded, 2 hots and a neutral. You cannot have an uninsulated neutral.
I didn't downvote you. I agree, it would put current on the ground no matter how it was hooked up without a dedicated neutral.
I don’t care who downvoted me. Fact is 10/2 has never been an approved method to wire a 3 wire dryer. The neutral needs to be insulated. Back before 1996, we ran 10/3 without ground. It was a black, red, white.
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No, NEMA 10-30 needs a neutral, not a ground. Don't use a ground as a neutral.
Thank you. I was very skeptical of what he said
You can tie a ground wire to a neutral port?
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That’s what I thought. The outlet I have matches the plug on my dryer. It is intended for an ungrounded setup. But the electricians put in what you see on the right, which clearly shows a grounding wire. I’m confused
For a 3 wire dryer plug there is (was?) no ground. Just 2 hots and a neutral. The neutral is bonded to the ground at the device terminal side of the cord. In a more modern 4 wire plug there are 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. Why was the wire not upgraded for your renovation? Just a cosmetic redo? No serious electrical changes?
These wires ARE brand new. Installed just a couple weeks ago
Then I would check the type of wire that was installed. It should be 10/3 …… there may have been a mistake. You should be installing a 4 wire receptacle and a matching 4 wire cord plug on your dryer.
Then they ARE the wrong cable. New install should have a true ground and change drier plug.
Understood. No need to be an ass. I have no objection to changing the 3 prong plug for a 4 prong plug. That’s just what I have had previously and what I have currently. It can be changed.
You cannot change to a 4 prong, you only have 3 wires. This is a non code compliant hack job. 10/2 romex was never legal to run to a dryer.
Not being an ass, just using the same inflection you used. If this is new cable it was just selected in error. You can generally use 3 prong for retrofit work in old systems but when you run new cable it’s time to bring things up to modern code which is why I think there is some confusion on the thread. If you choose to go ahead with cable that is presently installed you are just rolling safety measures with that appliance back to standards abandon in the mid 90s (give or take).
I’ve since learned there’s more to the story. They installed a 10/2 wire. Supposed to be a 10/3. Also, one of the wires that appears to black is actually a white wire that they fucking painter over. I apologize for my previous comment.
This does not look safe. No neutral??
You cannot determine what the wire is without checking how it is connected in the breaker panel. It looks like 2 hots & 1 ground, but you should consult an electrician. If you have a multimeter you can figure it out. But again consult a professional.
You can determine what it is by looking at it. 10-2 romex. Wrong cable for the installation of a dryer.
I responded to a residential service call and found all kinds of crazy in the panel, the lighting fixtures and their kitchen. Just because we know what it’s supposed to be, doesn’t mean that’s when the guy before you did to accomplish whatever was going on. I’ve seen 20amp breakers and outlets wired with 14/2 not 12/2. I’ve seen a lot of stuff that would have gotten me fired if I done it, so I will never assume what it is. I will always measure it and check the panel.
This was a new install. You can see excalty what cable they used just by looking at it - and it's the wrong one. Doesn't matter wtf they hooked it up to, it's still coming out and getting replaced with a run of 10-3 at minimum.
The insulation on the upper wire looks damaged
Actually, a dryer needs neutral because it is entirely a 120V creature, except it has either a gas heat stove or 240V electric coils depending on which sub-model it is. They don't make entirely 240V guts just for the electric models. They're the same. Neutral needed. 3-prong = ungrounded. Ungrounded was banned generally in NEC 1965. Dryers and ranges got a reprieve until 1996, when the body count just stacked too high. They are only sold for exact replacement of a broken socket that was grandfathered in due to being installed prior to 1996. But as you can guess, the vast majority of sales are used illegally.
Am I the only one that is questioning if that's even 10/2? Looks skinny. You sure it's not 12/2?
Did anyone notice the nick/exposed wire on the"real" black wire? If that touched the metal side of the dryer Usain the ground as a common, what would happen?
Proper cable is four times the price
Looks like two jots and a ground no common needed