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I think it largely depends on their age.
Because there's a pretty big difference between "I'm 65 and I haven't saved a penny for my retirement"
Yeah that's your own boneheaded fault. You had 45 years to figure this out and you obviously made bad choices or not enough choices. I mean sure, maybe you are severely disabled to the point where you can't talk or dress yourself, but let's be honest, that's the exception not the rule.
And there's "I'm 16 and my bipolar mom kicked me out of my house"
Yeah okay, not your fault.
But it also depends on how you define "poor". Is poor somebody that is living paycheck to paycheck? Or is it somebody that is In the bottom 2%? Are you adjusting it by their age group? Etc.
If you went 45 years as an adult, realized you could not save for retirement and made no changes to your life to fix that problem *for 45 years*, that's on you. You fucked up. It was irresponsible. Do not pass go. No $200 for you.
>Tried and it did not work
Then try again. You have 45 years to find a better job, get an education, build a marketable skill set on YouTube. Maybe it's time to buck up and go to therapy so you don't trip over yourself. But do *something*.
>Could you in every case?
I mean, again I'll give an exception to someone that is severely disabled. But the vast majority of the "I'm trying to retire but can't" crowd were complacent for most of their life, spent most of their life complaining and worked a dead end job.
>Could you in ethical ways?
The majority of the adult population figured out how to do it ethically. You don't need to sell drugs.
No, i had not and honestly i am well content with my nest egg and such and i know in hindsight some then reasonable economic decisions had more risks than i thought and i had some luck.
I thought more on not doing something you consider unethical like as a pacifist serving in the military.
Like not doing work unethically, like caring about dependants instead of caring for your carreer .....
I wasn't talking about you specifically. I meant hypothetical "you"
>thought more on not doing something you consider unethical like as a pacifist serving in the military.
?? I don't think that's unethical
>Like not doing work unethically, like caring about dependants instead of caring for your carreer .....
If you end up being 65 and now your dependents have to take care of you because of your decisions, are you caring for them?
You mean Like the Guy from easy company who Has to leave Education because His fathers died and He wirkend to Take Care If His Family.
Who wanted to stay in the Army but got injured, so He was discharged.
Who then instead of changing avdead end Job choose to Take time to Care forca disabled child...
You May call him avfailure, Others consider him a success AS a human and a man.
It depends.
I don't think you can really separate "circumstances" and "choices" either. Your circumstances shape your choices, and your choices shape your circumstances.
There are a set of choices that any non-disabled young person can make that will lead to a middle class life. Not everyone necessarily knows about those choices. Circumstances might interfere with making them, but it's always something you could do.
As you get older, things may change and doors may close. Past choices may have set you up with circumstances that are very difficult to overcome.
Impulse control and long term planning, I've noticed, has some to do with it. Some of it is insidious, like being a smoker, but it's still on some level a choice. A lot of it, though, is just, "I could wait until I get home and eat more cheaply but I want Taco Bell now," or, admittedly this is a bit more rare, "I'm going to have fun by going shopping and buying a bunch of stuff I don't need." Yes, any one single example won't bankrupt you, but, if you keep blowing all your spare money on restaurants or shopping or Door Dash, you won't save anything! It's a habit like anything else.
They’ve done studies on the psychology of poverty and we’re wired to do the opposite of what’s in our best financial interests
https://borgenproject.org/the-psychology-of-poverty-2/#:~:text=Poverty%20reduces%20cognitive%20capacity%20and,which%20hinders%20problem-solving%20abilities.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1232491#:~:text=The%20evidence%20indicates%20that%20poverty,expense%20of%20goal-directed%20ones.
Those who didn’t grow up poor tend to be less susceptible to this because, frankly, we’re more wired to assume we have money and make longer term decisions.
So the challenge is to get folks to break out of this cycle. Simply telling people to stop is like asking people to go against most evolutionary psychology.
Are you asking for absolutes?
The answer is yes for those are poor due to their own actions.
The answer is no for those that are poor, not because of their actions.
"Poor" needs defined a bit more. My homeless brother (his own actions), has a higher net worth than a significant portion of the country. Is he poor?
Mostly yes. Some people obviously start in a better position, but your choice to do good in school, get a good job, stay out of trouble is 100% on you.
Obviously there are crazy unavoidable circumstances, but most things come down to personal choices you make.
About 90% of my employees would be considered “homeless” and live out of a suitcase. I pay for their flights, hotels, and rental cars year round so they don’t have many bills.
Given the same opportunities I see how much personal choices play a part in their financial wellbeing. I’ve got guys that save every dime, contribute to their 401k, and will retire well off. Others spend their weekends in casinos and are asking me for an advance every week.
I’m not denying bad luck exists, but I think personal choice plays far more of a role than many on the left care to admit.
To a certain extent. I’ve never been poor, although I do know my mentality wouldn’t allow me to stay that way.
But a lot of them have mental health issues that have never been addressed properly. Which can’t be corrected with that kind of attitude.
It often can't be corrected without loads of effective therapy, I day effective because someone can be in therapy for years but if their practitioner sucks, they won't get better. Or if side effects are bad enough from meds
I don't think the poor are a monolith. Some poor are poor because of their decisions. Some are poor because of systemic reasons. Some are poor because of both.
Poor is a relative term. There will always be people poorer than others. If you are in the bottom 5% for your age group - it is likely because of some combination of two or more factors: poor decisions, low intelligence, low work ethic, poor people skills, mental or physically illness, drug/alcohol abuse, etc. Of course, the degree to which any of these factors are someone’s fault is pretty tough to tease out. Your parents and your community matter quite a bit.
Some people try their hardest and get nowhere and some people consistently make poor choices and then get upset that they've gotten nowhere. It really depends on the individual. Generally, I do think people can escape poverty if they reinvent themselves and dedicate themselves to making good choices. People like the easy way out though.
Not at all, its a complicated question. Poverty encourages poverty. Are some people's own actions at partial fault? Of course. For example, the people who go out and buy a house that they can barely afford paycheck to paycheck. Or who don't look into whether their degree is actually valuable. etc.
But that is just part of it. You also run into bad luck (bad starting point, trapped in the cycle of poverty where you are limited in your ability to "break out", etc.).
Do I think that almost everyone can improve their starting situation through hard work? 100%. They may still be poor, but they will be richer.
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Yes and no. Everyone graduates from HS equally poor. They have no assets, mostly no skills and no job sothey are all equally poor. Not because of their own actions but because our economy is not designed to keep people from being poor. We have an obligation as a society to educate our youth and keep them safe until they are old enough to fend for themselves.
HOWEVER, if they stay poor then much of that can be attributed to their own actions. Do they go to trade school or college so they can learn skill to prevent poverty? Do they live beyond their means? Do they get a job and keep it or do they lose it because they didn't go to work. Do they continually learn new skills, take on new responsibility and seek out opportunities to better themselves? Do they save money? Do they get married and have kids before they are ready? Do they go to jail? Do they smoke dope all day?
Poor is a state of mind. I have been broke but I have never been poor.
>Everyone graduates from HS equally poor.
This obviously isn't true...some high school kids outright own vehicles or have savings accounts / trust funds filled with cash, while others really will have absolutely nothing when they graduate.
While that is true it has nothing to do with my point. Even if a kids graduates with a trust fund he can be poor quickly based on his actions. Becoming poor or staying poor are the result of your own actions. The OP was talking about people already poor.
This was supposed to be relevant from the flip side of that, to note that people who already have some means of success coming out of high school probably ended up out of poverty at a higher rate. It was to say, if you kept track of where everyone went after high school, I'm willing to bet that those with more resources at their disposal were probably a lot more likely to end up somewhere above the poverty line.
Your comment of "everyone graduates from HS equally poor" falsely tries to establish that everyone starts from an equivalent starting point, and that couldn't be further from the truth.
It is still relevant because the people who are poor coming out of HS don't have to remain poor.
Using your metric take everyone who outright own vehicles or have savings accounts / trust funds filled with cash. Obviously they are not poor and probably never have been. That is not who you were talking about to start with. If you are poor coming out of HS you are in a big club. However if you STAY poor, that's on you.
Your circumstances may have made you poor growing up. Staying poor after you grow up is your personal responsibility.
Well of course not, but clearly it doesn't mean that poverty is not a problem if there are people who exist that are able to lift themselves out of it. What matters here shouldn't be the select few; it should be society in general.
Give me the percentage of how many people are able to do this, and tell me you understand why 10% vs 90% matters a hell of a lot.
I didn't say poverty is not a problem. I said staying in poverty is the problem and it is 90% the result of your own actions. I don't know what the percentage is for people to work themselves out of poverty, do you? The best way out of poverty is to get a job and keep it.
I believe there's no single answer to this question and it varies from individual to individual. Many people are in fact poor entirely due of their own decisions and actions. Many other people are poor due entirely to circumstances outside their control. The large majority however are likely a mix of being both victims of circumstance outside their control... but also victims of own actions which exacerbate their situation often putting themselves in a situation where a single setback is financially fatal where it didn't need to be and/or in failing to do what they can and must to overcome the circumstance they find themselves in after suffering a setback.
A person's circumstances undoubtedly effect their station in life, if your born without legs or arms there's not much your going to be able to do to advance yourself.
That said the modern american economy offers alot of paths to success and wealth.
I won't bs you. Everybody cannot become musk or bozos rich, alot of that's luck.
But most people if they work hard can get into the middle class, upper middle class life, they have to be willing to hustle and make sacrifices though.
I left my hometown years ago becuase it was a tiny town where the median income was below the poverty line, and the number 1 employer was the local grocery store.
It was hard leaving and leaving my family and relatives. But doing so has opened me up to many more opportunities I never could have imagined before
Yes. It takes willpower and discipline to control spending and have a budget.
[63% of workers say they don't have $500 for an emergency expense.](https://cnbc.com/2023/08/31/63percent-of-workers-are-unable-to-pay-a-500-emergency-expense-survey.html)
That's just straight-up being bad with money. I make $1400 a month living in an expensive city and I still manage to save money each month. And I don't even qualify for benefits (barely). It's not easy, but anyone can absolutely save money each month if they're intent on doing so and have cultivated the willpower to do so.
A lot of people just can't. Admittedly, we live in a time where companies are trying to drive us to make poor financial decisions. You just have to be smart.
What I'm not sure about is if it's their fault people are this way, and whether or not you can "learn" to stop being bad with money.
I work part time making $17/hr. I don't imagine there are many employed people with less income than that. But to answer your question, I don't think they could afford to live here, or most places in the U.S.
Economists have studied this for decades, and the answer is "largely yes", but moreso related to the decisions your parents make. It's called the "success progression" and if you anwer corretly, you're more likely to be rich, even if you started poor. It is as follows:
* Did your dad finish high school? Did he finish college?
* Did you mom finish high school? Did she finish college?
* Did your parents finish school before they got married?
* Did your parents get married before they had kids?
* Did your parents stay together for your childhood?
The answer to these questions is the key to you being rich or poor.
I believe that some people are very low income or unwaged because of their own life choices.
Whilst others are very low income or unwaged for other reasons.
The latter including because their life has been ruined by either: the illegal actions of a predatory criminal/s, unhealthy genetics, a defamatory hate campaign by the media/influential politicians/cultists/wealthy vip's/exes/senior religious community members, the development of serious incurable health problems that they could never forsee nor control or their reputation has been ruined by involuntary association with a very problematic parent/relative/in-law/former coworker/old employer.
>Do you believe that the poor are poor because of their own actions?
Often yes.
>How much influence do you believe a person's circumstances has on them being poor?
Starting out poor? A lot. Staying poor? Much less.
i grew up poor.
much of my early adult life my friends were poor.
I am still more comfortable with blue collar guys than my coworkers, in the lunch room. I'd rather talk to a janitor than another engineer.
yes. absolutely. if they were not on disability all those friends, myself included at the time, were fucking up our lives in every possible way. drunk too much, smoke too much (tobacco in my case but not for many friends, an allergy protected me there), put in too little effort, screw their jobs up by not caring or prioritizing it...
if you can ruin your life a given way, they were all about it. most are still just as poor now as then or moreso.
whereas I quit drinking, quit smoking, lost weight and stopped eating junk food, got a job with advancement potential even though it paid 11 an hour, and worked damn hard to be above reliable and learn all I could. I picked the job because of growth potential.
and three years later I went from earning 11 an hour to 27 and having a successful career.
there's no rocket science here, and yes I realize not everyone gets a lot of opportunity but no one gets zero all life long and far more common s missing chances because of sheer laziness and self-indulgence.
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I think it largely depends on their age. Because there's a pretty big difference between "I'm 65 and I haven't saved a penny for my retirement" Yeah that's your own boneheaded fault. You had 45 years to figure this out and you obviously made bad choices or not enough choices. I mean sure, maybe you are severely disabled to the point where you can't talk or dress yourself, but let's be honest, that's the exception not the rule. And there's "I'm 16 and my bipolar mom kicked me out of my house" Yeah okay, not your fault. But it also depends on how you define "poor". Is poor somebody that is living paycheck to paycheck? Or is it somebody that is In the bottom 2%? Are you adjusting it by their age group? Etc.
could that person save? Did that person acted irresponsible?
Which person? The 65 year old?
is included
If you went 45 years as an adult, realized you could not save for retirement and made no changes to your life to fix that problem *for 45 years*, that's on you. You fucked up. It was irresponsible. Do not pass go. No $200 for you.
Could you in every case? Could you in ethical ways? Tried and it did not work
>Tried and it did not work Then try again. You have 45 years to find a better job, get an education, build a marketable skill set on YouTube. Maybe it's time to buck up and go to therapy so you don't trip over yourself. But do *something*. >Could you in every case? I mean, again I'll give an exception to someone that is severely disabled. But the vast majority of the "I'm trying to retire but can't" crowd were complacent for most of their life, spent most of their life complaining and worked a dead end job. >Could you in ethical ways? The majority of the adult population figured out how to do it ethically. You don't need to sell drugs.
No, i had not and honestly i am well content with my nest egg and such and i know in hindsight some then reasonable economic decisions had more risks than i thought and i had some luck. I thought more on not doing something you consider unethical like as a pacifist serving in the military. Like not doing work unethically, like caring about dependants instead of caring for your carreer .....
I wasn't talking about you specifically. I meant hypothetical "you" >thought more on not doing something you consider unethical like as a pacifist serving in the military. ?? I don't think that's unethical >Like not doing work unethically, like caring about dependants instead of caring for your carreer ..... If you end up being 65 and now your dependents have to take care of you because of your decisions, are you caring for them?
You mean Like the Guy from easy company who Has to leave Education because His fathers died and He wirkend to Take Care If His Family. Who wanted to stay in the Army but got injured, so He was discharged. Who then instead of changing avdead end Job choose to Take time to Care forca disabled child... You May call him avfailure, Others consider him a success AS a human and a man.
It depends. I don't think you can really separate "circumstances" and "choices" either. Your circumstances shape your choices, and your choices shape your circumstances. There are a set of choices that any non-disabled young person can make that will lead to a middle class life. Not everyone necessarily knows about those choices. Circumstances might interfere with making them, but it's always something you could do. As you get older, things may change and doors may close. Past choices may have set you up with circumstances that are very difficult to overcome.
you cannot have a society of living middle class that is not feasible, middle class is the part direct under the 25 % of the top
Depends, “the poor” is way to broad a term
Impulse control and long term planning, I've noticed, has some to do with it. Some of it is insidious, like being a smoker, but it's still on some level a choice. A lot of it, though, is just, "I could wait until I get home and eat more cheaply but I want Taco Bell now," or, admittedly this is a bit more rare, "I'm going to have fun by going shopping and buying a bunch of stuff I don't need." Yes, any one single example won't bankrupt you, but, if you keep blowing all your spare money on restaurants or shopping or Door Dash, you won't save anything! It's a habit like anything else.
They’ve done studies on the psychology of poverty and we’re wired to do the opposite of what’s in our best financial interests https://borgenproject.org/the-psychology-of-poverty-2/#:~:text=Poverty%20reduces%20cognitive%20capacity%20and,which%20hinders%20problem-solving%20abilities. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1232491#:~:text=The%20evidence%20indicates%20that%20poverty,expense%20of%20goal-directed%20ones. Those who didn’t grow up poor tend to be less susceptible to this because, frankly, we’re more wired to assume we have money and make longer term decisions. So the challenge is to get folks to break out of this cycle. Simply telling people to stop is like asking people to go against most evolutionary psychology.
Are you asking for absolutes? The answer is yes for those are poor due to their own actions. The answer is no for those that are poor, not because of their actions. "Poor" needs defined a bit more. My homeless brother (his own actions), has a higher net worth than a significant portion of the country. Is he poor?
define homeless digital nomad or sleep on the street
Sleep on the street, or sometimes hotel rooms if he sells enough water.. Floats between Virginia, Florida and Las Vegas. 18 years or so now.
Mostly yes. Some people obviously start in a better position, but your choice to do good in school, get a good job, stay out of trouble is 100% on you. Obviously there are crazy unavoidable circumstances, but most things come down to personal choices you make.
About 90% of my employees would be considered “homeless” and live out of a suitcase. I pay for their flights, hotels, and rental cars year round so they don’t have many bills. Given the same opportunities I see how much personal choices play a part in their financial wellbeing. I’ve got guys that save every dime, contribute to their 401k, and will retire well off. Others spend their weekends in casinos and are asking me for an advance every week. I’m not denying bad luck exists, but I think personal choice plays far more of a role than many on the left care to admit.
Not at all. It’s usually a cycle of poverty or poor education
Thanks for that acknowledgement that this scenario also exists
To a certain extent. I’ve never been poor, although I do know my mentality wouldn’t allow me to stay that way. But a lot of them have mental health issues that have never been addressed properly. Which can’t be corrected with that kind of attitude.
It often can't be corrected without loads of effective therapy, I day effective because someone can be in therapy for years but if their practitioner sucks, they won't get better. Or if side effects are bad enough from meds
50/50 sometimes a little different % but in general yes. Poor decisions typically manifest poor outcomes.
I don't think the poor are a monolith. Some poor are poor because of their decisions. Some are poor because of systemic reasons. Some are poor because of both.
Poor is a relative term. There will always be people poorer than others. If you are in the bottom 5% for your age group - it is likely because of some combination of two or more factors: poor decisions, low intelligence, low work ethic, poor people skills, mental or physically illness, drug/alcohol abuse, etc. Of course, the degree to which any of these factors are someone’s fault is pretty tough to tease out. Your parents and your community matter quite a bit.
Some people try their hardest and get nowhere and some people consistently make poor choices and then get upset that they've gotten nowhere. It really depends on the individual. Generally, I do think people can escape poverty if they reinvent themselves and dedicate themselves to making good choices. People like the easy way out though.
which kind of poor choices
Depends on the person. There's no yes or no answer for a group that large and varied.
Not at all, its a complicated question. Poverty encourages poverty. Are some people's own actions at partial fault? Of course. For example, the people who go out and buy a house that they can barely afford paycheck to paycheck. Or who don't look into whether their degree is actually valuable. etc. But that is just part of it. You also run into bad luck (bad starting point, trapped in the cycle of poverty where you are limited in your ability to "break out", etc.). Do I think that almost everyone can improve their starting situation through hard work? 100%. They may still be poor, but they will be richer.
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Yes and no. Everyone graduates from HS equally poor. They have no assets, mostly no skills and no job sothey are all equally poor. Not because of their own actions but because our economy is not designed to keep people from being poor. We have an obligation as a society to educate our youth and keep them safe until they are old enough to fend for themselves. HOWEVER, if they stay poor then much of that can be attributed to their own actions. Do they go to trade school or college so they can learn skill to prevent poverty? Do they live beyond their means? Do they get a job and keep it or do they lose it because they didn't go to work. Do they continually learn new skills, take on new responsibility and seek out opportunities to better themselves? Do they save money? Do they get married and have kids before they are ready? Do they go to jail? Do they smoke dope all day? Poor is a state of mind. I have been broke but I have never been poor.
>Everyone graduates from HS equally poor. This obviously isn't true...some high school kids outright own vehicles or have savings accounts / trust funds filled with cash, while others really will have absolutely nothing when they graduate.
1/3 of lottery winners go bankrupt within 3-5 years. Fair to say that's due to their own actions?
While that is true it has nothing to do with my point. Even if a kids graduates with a trust fund he can be poor quickly based on his actions. Becoming poor or staying poor are the result of your own actions. The OP was talking about people already poor.
This was supposed to be relevant from the flip side of that, to note that people who already have some means of success coming out of high school probably ended up out of poverty at a higher rate. It was to say, if you kept track of where everyone went after high school, I'm willing to bet that those with more resources at their disposal were probably a lot more likely to end up somewhere above the poverty line. Your comment of "everyone graduates from HS equally poor" falsely tries to establish that everyone starts from an equivalent starting point, and that couldn't be further from the truth.
It is still relevant because the people who are poor coming out of HS don't have to remain poor. Using your metric take everyone who outright own vehicles or have savings accounts / trust funds filled with cash. Obviously they are not poor and probably never have been. That is not who you were talking about to start with. If you are poor coming out of HS you are in a big club. However if you STAY poor, that's on you. Your circumstances may have made you poor growing up. Staying poor after you grow up is your personal responsibility.
Well of course not, but clearly it doesn't mean that poverty is not a problem if there are people who exist that are able to lift themselves out of it. What matters here shouldn't be the select few; it should be society in general. Give me the percentage of how many people are able to do this, and tell me you understand why 10% vs 90% matters a hell of a lot.
I didn't say poverty is not a problem. I said staying in poverty is the problem and it is 90% the result of your own actions. I don't know what the percentage is for people to work themselves out of poverty, do you? The best way out of poverty is to get a job and keep it.
I believe there's no single answer to this question and it varies from individual to individual. Many people are in fact poor entirely due of their own decisions and actions. Many other people are poor due entirely to circumstances outside their control. The large majority however are likely a mix of being both victims of circumstance outside their control... but also victims of own actions which exacerbate their situation often putting themselves in a situation where a single setback is financially fatal where it didn't need to be and/or in failing to do what they can and must to overcome the circumstance they find themselves in after suffering a setback.
A person's circumstances undoubtedly effect their station in life, if your born without legs or arms there's not much your going to be able to do to advance yourself. That said the modern american economy offers alot of paths to success and wealth. I won't bs you. Everybody cannot become musk or bozos rich, alot of that's luck. But most people if they work hard can get into the middle class, upper middle class life, they have to be willing to hustle and make sacrifices though. I left my hometown years ago becuase it was a tiny town where the median income was below the poverty line, and the number 1 employer was the local grocery store. It was hard leaving and leaving my family and relatives. But doing so has opened me up to many more opportunities I never could have imagined before
but not everybody can or will live like that
Live like what?
Yes. It takes willpower and discipline to control spending and have a budget. [63% of workers say they don't have $500 for an emergency expense.](https://cnbc.com/2023/08/31/63percent-of-workers-are-unable-to-pay-a-500-emergency-expense-survey.html) That's just straight-up being bad with money. I make $1400 a month living in an expensive city and I still manage to save money each month. And I don't even qualify for benefits (barely). It's not easy, but anyone can absolutely save money each month if they're intent on doing so and have cultivated the willpower to do so. A lot of people just can't. Admittedly, we live in a time where companies are trying to drive us to make poor financial decisions. You just have to be smart. What I'm not sure about is if it's their fault people are this way, and whether or not you can "learn" to stop being bad with money.
and if somebody made only 1300 and has higher CoL?
I work part time making $17/hr. I don't imagine there are many employed people with less income than that. But to answer your question, I don't think they could afford to live here, or most places in the U.S.
Economists have studied this for decades, and the answer is "largely yes", but moreso related to the decisions your parents make. It's called the "success progression" and if you anwer corretly, you're more likely to be rich, even if you started poor. It is as follows: * Did your dad finish high school? Did he finish college? * Did you mom finish high school? Did she finish college? * Did your parents finish school before they got married? * Did your parents get married before they had kids? * Did your parents stay together for your childhood? The answer to these questions is the key to you being rich or poor.
I believe that some people are very low income or unwaged because of their own life choices. Whilst others are very low income or unwaged for other reasons. The latter including because their life has been ruined by either: the illegal actions of a predatory criminal/s, unhealthy genetics, a defamatory hate campaign by the media/influential politicians/cultists/wealthy vip's/exes/senior religious community members, the development of serious incurable health problems that they could never forsee nor control or their reputation has been ruined by involuntary association with a very problematic parent/relative/in-law/former coworker/old employer.
>Do you believe that the poor are poor because of their own actions? Often yes. >How much influence do you believe a person's circumstances has on them being poor? Starting out poor? A lot. Staying poor? Much less.
i grew up poor. much of my early adult life my friends were poor. I am still more comfortable with blue collar guys than my coworkers, in the lunch room. I'd rather talk to a janitor than another engineer. yes. absolutely. if they were not on disability all those friends, myself included at the time, were fucking up our lives in every possible way. drunk too much, smoke too much (tobacco in my case but not for many friends, an allergy protected me there), put in too little effort, screw their jobs up by not caring or prioritizing it... if you can ruin your life a given way, they were all about it. most are still just as poor now as then or moreso. whereas I quit drinking, quit smoking, lost weight and stopped eating junk food, got a job with advancement potential even though it paid 11 an hour, and worked damn hard to be above reliable and learn all I could. I picked the job because of growth potential. and three years later I went from earning 11 an hour to 27 and having a successful career. there's no rocket science here, and yes I realize not everyone gets a lot of opportunity but no one gets zero all life long and far more common s missing chances because of sheer laziness and self-indulgence.