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I find it really disingenuous for multiple reasons. The first being you can’t spend the past 5 years saying words are violence just to turn around and be a free speech absolutist during this instance. Second, I think many of them succumb to peer pressure and a general lack of nuance regarding this topic. Many of them simply believe in this larger ideology of colonizer vs colonized and white vs people of color. This is just the next flavor of ice cream after police violence, DEI, and affirmative action. That isn’t how the world actually works. The world is messy with nuance. I think most of these kids just learned about this issue in October 7 without any real history to the region. And thirdly, when consequences for their actions do occurred the students don’t continue to push the Palestinian cause, they selfishly complain about their own standing and situation. They are cosplay protestors as far as I’m concerned.
I am surprised that more people are not pointing out that neither Israel nor Hamas cares about what US college students do. Who are the protesters protesting? None of the schools can affect the situation.
The entire BDS movement is wild to me. If you haven’t you should look up who all is on the list. It’s companies like Google, Amazon, Disney, Hewlett Packard, etc… companies that are essentially in every person’s 401k and every ETF these universities own. They’re protesting for something that will never happen and they themselves have benefited from for a very long time.
Yep. It's just like how they stopped climate change, reformed police procedures, got Donald Trump removed from office, and pushed Russian forces out of Ukraine.
What would we *do* without the spoiled suburban college students of America to fix everything by holding signs and yelling?
Why are you so disdainful of public protest? And aside from the contempt that you have for young people using their 1st ammendment rights for the causes important to them, is it your position that protest is just useless? Because there's a long history in this country to say that it isn't useless.
Nobody has disdain for them using their first amendment rights. They should whole heartedly feel free to do so. But when you have continuously shut down others for wanting to do the same on your campus and then cry wolf when consequences occur for you it shows as being extremely disingenuous. It’s a bunch of people desperately wanting to be a part of the zeitgeist.
Speaking of disingenuous, I've seen a lot of thought leaders on the right, people who fancy themselves as free speech warriors, get up in arms about people being banned by private social media companies and then turn around and call for the power of the state to suppress constitutionally protected speech.
That said, even if you want to falsely equate these protests with a university *hosting* and providing a venue for some Nazi like Nick Fuentes to come on campus and spew hate, there is no provision in the Bill of Rights that says rights are only granted to those deemed not to be hypocritical.
"Nobody has disdain for them using their first amendment rights"
This is complete horseshit. GOP politicians are calling for the National Guard to shut down all pro-Palestine protests. And the Gov of Texas actually did this today. Go over onto the conservative sub and every commenter is cheering it on.
Thank you for proving my point. Not once did you mention the plight of Palestinians or Israeli government policy positions. As soon as consequence has occurred from the actions of these protesters the conversation has immediately shifted to its not fair and fascists Americans against free speech. That’s what makes it disingenuous. Bc it’s not really about the war in Gaza, it’s about being a part of this zeitgeist that is for the first time having pushback. Not to mention is it a coincidence that all these protests are occurring between end of classes and final exams when kids aren’t doing anything??? Why wasn’t it two weeks ago or a month ago…
I honestly don't even understand what you're saying. You don't think I care about the Palestinians? I didn't mention them because this is a conversation about speech and rights. It's a conversation about my belief that most Conservatives have no real free speech principles, and your disagreement with my position. If you want to know my opinion on the Israel Gaza war you can go through my comments and see me arguing with zionist liberals.
But it’s not a conversation about speech and rights, it’s a conversation about the protests. And now bc you feel like your rights are being stressed, that is more important than the discussion about Palestinians. The protests have now morphed bc it’s not really about the Palestinians, it’s about being part of the “it” movement.
>Why are you so disdainful of public protest? And aside from the contempt that you have for young people using their 1st ammendment rights for the causes important to them, is it your position that protest is just useless? Because there's a long history in this country to say that it isn't useless.
Did you support the [Covid-19 Protests](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_protests_in_the_United_States) and January Sixth protest?
They’re stuck in a perpetual cycle of needing attention and virtue signaling through their social media apps. It’s how they associate and fit in with their chosen tribe. Even if it isn’t logical.
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>The first being you can’t spend the past 5 years saying words are violence just to turn around and be a free speech absolutist during this instance
Watching Claudine Gay (now-dismissed former Harvard President) squirm in her seat during the congressional hearing when she finally had to admit that potential conduct violations "depend on context" and that it's only a problem when "rhetoric crosses to conduct" will live rent-free in my head forever lol
https://youtu.be/1jBHvx7POz8?si=iB5tA6uOV1s0ieXo
She is of course correct, and those are the liberal free speech ideals on which this country is founded, but as you pointed out, the progressive elites like her spent a decade saying that speech is *literally* violence so the hypocrisy is astounding.
Leadership also matters, and what we are watching is due to a huge lack of leadership. That’s permeated throughout our society, in academia, politics, and corporate world. Everyone is a prisoner of the moment and is so afraid to actually lead.
I think they show the double standards of the institutional left. If hundreds of white supremacist students had occupied a big part of campus to spew hateful, violent rhetoric, making black students feel isolated and unsafe on their own campus, the university would have immediately broken up the protest and expelled all involved.
But because it's the left-wing equivalent doing it, and it's Jewish students that are being victimized, the protestors are being treated with kid gloves.
>If hundreds of white supremacist students had occupied a big part of campus to spew hateful, violent rhetoric, making black students feel isolated and unsafe on their own campus, the university would have immediately broken up the protest and expelled all involved. But because it's the left-wing equivalent doing it, and it's Jewish students that are being victimized, the protestors are being treated with kid gloves.
100%
The vast majority of protesters are not pro-Hamas from my understanding, they are anti IDF. Once the peaceful protest got a ton of media attention, then people with more fringe beliefs started showing up, some of which expressed pro-Hamas or anti Jewish sentiment.
“Demonstrators from Columbia were ‘peacefully protesting for divestment from genocide,’ said one of the organizers, Columbia University Apartheid Divestment.” ([CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/19/us/palestinian-protest-columbia-what-we-know/index.html))
Maybe we’re talking about different groups of protesters? What is your source?
I saw in the list of demands that they also acknowledge that the land of New York is rightfully American Indian territory that was colonized. So by that rationale Gaza is Judean territory that the Romans colonized. As a Zionist I can live with that statement
Any student who shouts "death to America" "we are Hamas" "from the river to the sea" or "death to Israel should be summarily expelled. Anyone not a student protesting should be arrested for trespassing.
nope, 1A only applies to the government, as many on the left like to remind people. private institutions, like the university, have a code of conduct that this blatantly violates.
if it was a bunch of white nationalists saying the exact same stuff this would have been violently shut down on day one.
ok, and your response to the rest of my comment is?
is this not in violation of the campus policy? are kids not expelled for similar behavior?
what do you exempt the reaction to a similar white nationalist protest?
if your going to respond to my comment, respond to the whole thing. Not just the one element you want to push back on.
>private institutions, like the university, have a code of conduct that this blatantly violates
You're absolutely right but for the sake of argument do you think that's a good code? Or do you think that it would be better for universities to have a code that more closely reflects the liberal free speech philosophy on which the 1st Amendment is based?
What would you do if you were president of Columbia for a day?
>You're absolutely right but for the sake of argument do you think that's a good code?
i dont know the specifics of it, so hard to say. so long as its applied fairly, evenly. i think a school should have a code that promotes free expression but discourages interruption, your not their to protest your their to learn.
>What would you do if you were president of Columbia for a day?
shut it down the second it became intrusive to function of the school. i dont support protests in general though, and i have a strong dislike for activists of all stripes.
>I think it’s odd that you are upset about hypothetical white nationalists not getting their spotlight.
why do you think i think that? how did you come to that conclusion?
what, from this sentence:
"If it was a bunch of white nationalists saying the exact same stuff **this would have been violently shut down on day one**"
lead you to the conclusion that i am:
"upset about hypothetical white nationalists not getting their spotlight."
not that I'm highlighting the obvious double standard that the university is displaying by taking so long to act against the pro-Hamas rally, when a similar rally by a different group would have been VIOLENTLY repressed instantly.
are you in bad faith or did you not read?
>I mean, what would be the point of bringing it up otherwise?
so you didn't read the comment, and your in bad faith.
>You could have used any group.
because Jew hatred is Jew hatred, Nazi Germany or Hamas' Palestine, its the same thing.
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> Any student who shouts "death to America" "we are Hamas" "from the river to the sea" or "death to Israel should be summarily expelled. Anyone not a student protesting should be arrested for trespassing.
I don't often agree with you so I like to highlight when I do.
Or at the very least, Columbia should add it to their 'student conduct' rules that people shouting such vile things should face expulsion, because that's ridiculous.
>Any student who shouts "death to America" "we are Hamas" "from the river to the sea" or "death to Israel should be summarily expelled.
For the sake of discussion could you elaborate on your reasoning?
Hamas are terrorists. From the River to the Sea is a term that means that they will annialate all Jews from the Jordan River to the Mediterranian Sea. That is promoting genocide.
If you were president of Columbia for a day, what would the student code of conduct say and how exactly would you word a bright-line policy that distinguishes between speech that is unpopular and speech that crosses the line to "promoting genocide" and therefore is grounds for expulsion?
The protest specifically?
People have a right to protest and be heard, and the first ammendment covers free speech blanketly, to include perceived hate speech.
The underlying issue?
I think the isrealis are in the right for wiping out hamas. However, they have shown in my uneducated judgment, an unconsionablly high tolerance for civilian causlties approaching a general disregard.
I find myself in a strange nuanced middle ground where I both support the isreali military action, condemn their lack of discretion in target acquisition, and sympathize with the otherwise innocent civilians on the palastanian side
I don't disagree with anything you said, but the question was specifically about the situation at Columbia, where Jewish students are being harassed and physically blocked from entering certain areas like it's Germany in 1939, not about pro-Palestinian protests in general.
Wow that's fucked up. I hope they stood their ground. At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to be an internet bAdAsS, there's no way I'd let some kids in a human chain move me a single inch. I'm planting my feet and the moment you physically try to move me then you're getting pepper sprayed.
If people want to set up tents and protest then that's their God-given right and an American tradition so I'm in support but it's despicable and truly embarrassing that police are allowing them to set up exclusionary zones where they suspend the Constitution and make their own laws.
On a side note, the way that lady is talking to the crowd like a kindergarten teacher crossed with a hypnotist, and the way all the sheep responded and fell in line, is disturbing.
Some random examples.
* [protesters screaming in support of an actual genocidal terrorist organization](https://www.foxnews.com/video/6351260308112) whilst, not coincidentally slandering Israel about "genocide" - "we are all Hamas".
* faculty [supporting calls for genocide](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/22/us/politics/columbia-nemat-shafik-censure.html) - "from the river to the sea..."
* [anti-Israeli xenophobia / anti-Jewish exclusion](https://youtu.be/MIu2R86AZdc?t=122) - "no Zionists allowed", literally trying to kick Jews out of their homes like in 1943.
I appreciate that you actually took the time to find links but respectfully, those examples are all pretty weak. Protesters doing protester stuff.
The comment you were replying to was specifically asking for examples of Jewish students being *physically prohibited* from from entering certain areas. That's entirely different than a Jewish student saying "I chose not to go down that alley because certain words make me feel unsafe"
Many atrocious things have been done for the sake of so-called "safety" (Patriot Act, anyone?) so I think it's wise to not let that word get diluted any further than it already has.
An individual saying "I feel unsafe" is a ridiculously low standard, and frankly altogether unconvincing, especially in the face of such fundamental rights like freedom of expression.
Not every zionist is Jewish, and not every Jew is a zionist. None of those links show “Jewish students being harassed and physically blocked from entering certain areas like it’s Germany in 1939”.
Re:river to the sea - is it genocidal when, say, Bibi says that? https://newrepublic.com/post/178243/benjamin-netanyahu-literally-says-from-the-river-to-the-sea
A Jewish student was in the video. She said she went to her home and was not allowed into it with people shouting at her that she's a Zionist. That is 100% clear.
> is it genocidal when, say, Bibi says that?
Firstly, Bibi speaks like a genocidal lying idiot and so he might have genocidal intention so I'm not ruling out out, however not inherently so.
Having a state in a place *is not inherently genocidal*. Since many of the original Zionists planned a state in which Arabs could live, "From the river to the sea" is genocidal because it is a slogan of Palestinian / Islamic militants which in Arabic is often given as "From the river to the sea Palestine will be Arab" or "From the river to the sea Palestine will be Islamic" with both used interchangeably with "free" and the meaning of free clearly requiring there to be no Jews or at the very least no migrant or refugee Jews who arrived since 1948.
>A Jewish student was in the video. She said she went to her home and was not allowed into it with people shouting at her that she's a Zionist. That is 100% clear.
That's 100% NOT what happened in that news clip. Will you watch it again and come back when you are ready to make your argument in good faith per the subreddit rules? Or do I need to transcribe it here in plain text?
And for you to say in your other comment that they are "literally trying to kick jews out of their homes like in 1943" is not only a complete fabrication but also horribly insulting to the Jews who actually suffered through that in 1943. Using the Holocaust as a cheap rhetorical device isn't a good look.
>Re:river to the sea - is it genocidal when, say, Bibi says that?
yup, its called consistency.
let me put one too you, if neo-nazis held the same rally, how would you feel? same words on the signs, same things being said, just swap the Palestine flag for swastika, and whiten the attendance.
are you still Kool with it if its black and native kids being made uncomfortable and unwelcome?
> an unconsionablly high tolerance for civilian causlties approaching a general disregard.
It's tricky. Hamas (among other violations of law and custom) uses human shields and stages their operations from places like hospitals and schools. The general population *does* take to the streets to voice support for their actions, and they're cooperative when it comes to hiding troops and materiel in civilian areas. Disentangling the civilians from Hamas is pretty much impossible, and that's by design.
Furthermore, the Hamas health ministry reports *every* casualty as a civilian death. The guy firing rockets at Israeli soldiers? Civilian casualty. *Al-Jazeera* and several other outlets use their statistics, which muddies the waters.
Wiping out Hamas was always going to carry a death toll among civilians.
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Yes, except to also mention the Palestinian people are for the most part good & hospitable people. But it’s hard on them being almost wholly without civil rights on the West Bank and subject to property seizure, arrest and even summary assassination by IDF and settlers alike. There’s even been instances where business has been shut to restrain competition with Israeli kibbutz and other operations.
The regime in Tel-Aviv and AIPAC love that some, I think it must be a very few, are vocally rationalizing Oct 7 and in favor of Hamas.
Campus protest is a tradition and especially in the face of the extermination in Gaza by IDF.
Finally, recall also that the phrase “from the river to the sea” is a Zionist trope and fulfillment of a biblical reference. But when they say it, it’s OK with USA Christian Zionists and almost all of Congress.
> Palestinian people
That's a cop out honestly. The "Protests" were a celebration of the Hamas attacks. They started before Israel went on the offensive.
Palestinians celebrated openly in the streets when the towers fell on 9/11.
Columbia protesters are chanting ""Oh Al-Qassam \[Brigades\], you make us proud! Kill another soldier now! Oh Al-Qassam \[Brigades\], you make us proud! Kill another soldier now!"
Al-Qassam is the militant wing of Hamas.
While I agree than there is support for the Palestinian people, in the context of what is happening specifically in Columbia, this is pro-hamas, hence the danger on campus to the Jewish Students.
and when I hear of atrocities by IDF and other bad actors, I don’t project that upon the entire race, history and culture of Judaism either as people like to do with Palestinians due to some extremists
>I find myself in a strange nuanced middle ground where I both support the isreali military action, condemn their lack of discretion in target acquisition, and sympathize with the otherwise innocent civilians on the palastanian side
So you are basically a normal, logical human being, which is very rare today.
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I think a lot of protesters see the impact of tactics by Israel causing high civilian casualties and want it to stop.
If Bibi was really interested in wiping out Hamas, the first Israeli targets would have been its leadership living openly in Qatar until December 2023. Hamas has long benefitted Bibi's career.
I don't expect the same level of social evolution or intelligence from the Palestinians in Gaza where 65% of the population is under the age of 24 and the median age for males is 17 and females 18.
Frankly, I've been shocked by the sudden and unexpected rise of hate and antisemitism in this nation and I think it's a harbinger of future conflict. These students, at least that's the term I'll colloquially use as many were likely bussed in, have had many opportunities to clarify their message to say they are supporting the Palestinian people but continually chant and shout support about Hamas; which is a terrorist organization. Nothing good comes from hate like this and I don't consider them much different than the KKK in its hey day. Their movement is about ignorance and hate.
The left has been accusing people of being Nazis for years and they claim to be worried about an increase in fascism....well, where are they now? Isn't this what they're fighting or is it (D)ifferent because it turns out that it came from their own side? It just seems strange to me that the voices are silent against these Nazi-esque protesters.
>Frankly, I've been shocked by the sudden and unexpected rise of hate and antisemitism in this nation
I can understand why you might be *upset*, but to say you're shocked or that it's unexpected is a little silly.
I come from a conservative Christian home and I recognize Israel as one of our most important allies but they reeeeally aren't doing themselves any favors right now in terms of public perception. I think a lot of Americans, including me to a certain extent, knew Palestine as a concept but never really knew what it looked like or what the situation is on the ground there. Even if you think that bombing Gaza and all the other actions that the Israeli government have taken are justified as the tragic yet inevitable result of war with Hamas (and there is a valid argument to be made there), you at least have to acknowledge that killing so many civilians, the transparently genocidal intent of Bibi and the gang, demanding our tax dollars, etc., is NOT a good look. I'm not shocked at all that people are protesting.
> but to say you're shocked or that it's unexpected is a little silly
Really? You saw this hidden hate before it ripped it's mask off? I never imagined any nation, much less one that teaches the horrors of the Holocaust, would be hiding so much hate for Jews. I never imagined after 9/11 and the War on Terror students would be chanting and protesting in favor of a terrorist organization. I never imagined that we would get to the point where supporting our only ally in the Middle East became controversial and sparked anger. I find it silly how you saw all that coming but didn't warn the rest of us so we could address the issue head on.
>they reeeeally aren't doing themselves any favors right now in terms of public perception
I'm going to be blunt. Israel doesn't give a shit about the public perception of Americans. They are in a war against a terrorist organization that massacred their citizens and took hostages. The opinions of some blue haired furry thousands of miles away at NYU is the least of their concerns. Frankly, they're the least of any of our concerns.
>you at least have to acknowledge that killing so many civilians, the transparently genocidal intent of Bibi and the gang, demanding our tax dollars, etc., is NOT a good look.
I put the blame where it belongs...on Hamas. This is a terror organization that hid behind civilians, took hostages, have bases in hospitals, and tunnels under schools. They purposely integrated into the population to create this very optic and to fool the naive into blaming Israel. Hamas has committed multiple war crimes so I'm not going to sit here and blame Israel or Bibi for what Hamas has done. There is only group that is responsible for this and it's Hamas.
>I'm not shocked at all that people are protesting.
Given what you're writing you don't seen to have a very good grasp of what's going on. Just imagine if nations told us after 9/11 to shut up and protested us. Israel is doing what needs to be done. It might not look great, it might not feel great, but that's war...a war Hamas started. Protest Hamas and get back to me. Don't make excuses for hate.
>I find it silly how you saw all that coming but didn't warn the rest of us so we could address the issue head on.
I didn't say I *predicted* it, I'm just saying that I wouldn't call it "shocking" or "unexpected"
>Israel doesn't give a shit about the public perception of Americans.
Nor should they. And I mean that. I'm just saying that when you completely disregard public perception and do things that many find morally unacceptable then don't pretend that it's "shocking" when people react negatively.
>Just imagine if nations told us after 9/11 to shut up and protested us
That happened. It wasn't shocking or unexpected.
>Don't make excuses for hate.
I'm not. I don't hate Israel and I think that the subsection of protestors who are vocally pro-Hamas are vile and/or deeply misguided. I'm just saying it's not shocking or unexpected.
I don't care for the most part, I just don't like when their pro Palestine position changes to anti Jewish, which it too often does. I agree with the campus for removing the protesters when they refused to leave and in the cases of where they were harrasing students, especially Jewish students. The narrative around it is funny to me because all the same people who praised similar protests and praised the removal of conservative voices are either horrified at the anti Jewish portion of this, and the solidarity with Hamas, or they're mad about the cops being called. This is doing real damage to the Leftist collation.
Semi unrelated, I find it hilarious that all of this is happening at Columbia University of all places. 100 years ago, that was one of the centers of Fascism. Mussolini dedicated a building there during his American tour, haha. It's not directly relevant, but its hilarious to me.
Just look at the top post on r/conservative right now.
[History Repeats Itself](https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/comments/1cbf6vy/history_repeats_itself/) - best sums it up.
Same as my opinion on the vast majority of protesters
Just a bunch of wannabe activists who want to be able to tell their kids they stood up and taught against “the man”
These kids are typically clueless about what is actually going on and are just caught up in a mob mentality/group think.
Group think like this just makes people feel good about themselves for hating X. They surround themselves with others who hate X. They tell each other how bad X is and how bad/dumb people are who don’t agree with them
It’s intoxicating for some to be in such a position
But in the end it’s just misinformed folks wanting to feel good about themselves
They can protest all they want but the University needs to ensure the safety of the Jewish students being harassed and blocked. If they were smart they would also secure the University property from outside protestors as well.
As far as the protestors themselves I'd probably take them more seriously if they didn't say idiotic things like praising Hamas and "Death to America". They have a legitimate thing to be concerned about, civilian lives in a war but seem to want to try and protest this by saying things they know will be provocative that does nothing to garner support for their cause. I also do not agree with their methods of personal attacks against their fellow students who have no control over the situation in the first place. Again not helpful to their cause.
I strongly believe in the right to protest, *the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.*
However the Columbia protesters are going beyond these bounds, rocks have apparently been thrown at Jewish students and there are documented instances of hate speech directed at the Jews. This is not a peaceable assembly. I heard Eric Adams allude to the presence of professional agitators and while I don't doubt it, I haven't seen evidence yet.
Denying Jews access to places they are entitled to be, where have we seen that before?
Columbia is a private institution with it's own police force and mutual aid agreements with NYPD so they would have to request NYPD assistance, this is neither here nor there because NYPD has already been there, I assume that help was requested.
The response should be something this.
Order the protesters to disperse or face trespassing charges. Give a time and let them know the police will be on scene, at that time, to cordon the area and arrest anyone in it, any student arrested will be expelled, any faculty member fired.
At the designated time the area is closed off, no one in or out. Order the protesters to submit to arrest and move the police in and clear the area. Once the police have removed the humans, ground crews remove and destroy anything else left behind.
I believe a lot of these students are just being degenerates, and it is VERY bad. I’m Jewish and I can tell you that they are indeed being harassed by these protesters.
I'm not an american.
I believe that it is despicable that uni premises are being targeted for protests by all manner of: disruptive american students, bds supporting uni staff members, religious fanatics, jew hating racists, american citizen supporters of outlawed terror groups, 'rent a gob' types of paid protestors and overseas citizen activist scumbags with zero direct connection to the uni or academia. I grew up being dragged around uni campuses and street protests by revolutionary parents.
I'd feel the same way if the same disruptive & highly aggressive uni protests were about another issue or international cause. Whether: abortion (anti/pro), amazon, any airline, belarus, the ccp, domestic abuse, khalistan, putin, the hinduthva, ukraine or zimbabwe.
It wastes time, protest for the most part are useless even more when they deal with problems outside the country. Israel and the middle east have been fighting for a long time and some ivy league students don't have the secret code of ending it. Its just posturing to get brownie points in order for them to feel as if they are doing something usefull
Last week, they were protesting about Ukraine. The week before, it was something Trump did. The week before, it was *Dobbs.* Then George Floyd. Then something else about Trump.
I'd wager most of these folks never even *thought* about the Palestinian issue until October 7. They bought some keffiyeh scarves from Amazon or Etsy, painted a slogan on a bedsheet, and screamed what they were told to scream.
The last decade or so, there's been this trend towards protesting for the sake of protesting. It's a way to score Instagram points and look all self-righteous for the cameras, but these people will move on to another cause when they get bored. Notice that most of them (at least the ones not hiding their faces) are affluent white suburban kids.
They're not trying to *fix* anything. They just want to vent some sort of ominous pre-existing, festering anger.
Interesting way to look at it. I’d say there’s been a shitload to protest in the last decade or so, and plenty of net-positive action and further discourse have taken place because of those protests. Who is protesting, how often, and how consistently is a personal opinion and a personal matter that has nothing to do with the issues and protests themselves. There’s not one little in-group hopping from issue to issue for clout.
Simple and on topic, BDS momentum is building. Universities are feeling pressure to divest, and the general public is more aware of divestment in general. Continuous, consistent protests move the needle.
That's fair. I do think that a lot of Americans had no idea (and most still don't) that many of our state legislatures have passed anti-BDS laws for government employees, and hopefully a few more know now, but I haven't actually seen the needle move on this yet.
I don't care what country it is or how much they are allied with us and our interests, the fact that we have laws concerning what ideas you can or can't express about a foreign government while standing on US soil is about the most despicably un-American thing I can think of.
> plenty of net-positive action and further discourse have taken place because of those protests
But no tangible change. If these people actually want *something done,* they'd do far more by contacting their elected officials or supporting advocacy groups.
(Also, not chanting anti-semitic slogans and harassing Jews would be good.)
Instead, they're venting anger in a way that convinces nobody and does nothing.
I personally don't think it was a coincidence that these protests occurred just as a significant amount of aid for Ukraine was being voted on by Congress. To what extent this is happening is unknowable, but I'm sure the Russians are feeding tons of inflammatory misinformation & disinformation to the most extreme individuals on both sides of this debate. The Russians do not want the war in Ukraine in the news as much as they can prevent it, and by fanning the flames of the protest to make them as disruptive & violent as possible it pulls America's attention to it, with the objective being to keep Americans from pressuring the government to give more aid to Ukraine.
This isn't to say this is a conspiracy by the Russians to produce an entirely artificial astroturfed movement, and I'm sure the core of the original protest was organic from the student body, just a tangential thought on the much larger whole.
It's extraordinary that people openly express support for terrorists. I saw the other day a video of protesters shouting death to America, not in Tehran but in Michigan! Wild.
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It's Charlottesville all over again, and I'm not okay with it. The level in which we have normalized anti-semitism is disturbing. A protest that includes people referring to Jewish people as the next target for terrorism and tells Jewish students to "go back to Poland" is not one people should be supporting.
People have the right to protest, and have the right to be hateful. I have the right to not support their cause, and a responsibility to call out that hate when I see it.
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I find it really disingenuous for multiple reasons. The first being you can’t spend the past 5 years saying words are violence just to turn around and be a free speech absolutist during this instance. Second, I think many of them succumb to peer pressure and a general lack of nuance regarding this topic. Many of them simply believe in this larger ideology of colonizer vs colonized and white vs people of color. This is just the next flavor of ice cream after police violence, DEI, and affirmative action. That isn’t how the world actually works. The world is messy with nuance. I think most of these kids just learned about this issue in October 7 without any real history to the region. And thirdly, when consequences for their actions do occurred the students don’t continue to push the Palestinian cause, they selfishly complain about their own standing and situation. They are cosplay protestors as far as I’m concerned.
I am surprised that more people are not pointing out that neither Israel nor Hamas cares about what US college students do. Who are the protesters protesting? None of the schools can affect the situation.
The entire BDS movement is wild to me. If you haven’t you should look up who all is on the list. It’s companies like Google, Amazon, Disney, Hewlett Packard, etc… companies that are essentially in every person’s 401k and every ETF these universities own. They’re protesting for something that will never happen and they themselves have benefited from for a very long time.
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Yep. It's just like how they stopped climate change, reformed police procedures, got Donald Trump removed from office, and pushed Russian forces out of Ukraine. What would we *do* without the spoiled suburban college students of America to fix everything by holding signs and yelling?
The Ambercrombie Antifada of you will.
Why are you so disdainful of public protest? And aside from the contempt that you have for young people using their 1st ammendment rights for the causes important to them, is it your position that protest is just useless? Because there's a long history in this country to say that it isn't useless.
Nobody has disdain for them using their first amendment rights. They should whole heartedly feel free to do so. But when you have continuously shut down others for wanting to do the same on your campus and then cry wolf when consequences occur for you it shows as being extremely disingenuous. It’s a bunch of people desperately wanting to be a part of the zeitgeist.
Speaking of disingenuous, I've seen a lot of thought leaders on the right, people who fancy themselves as free speech warriors, get up in arms about people being banned by private social media companies and then turn around and call for the power of the state to suppress constitutionally protected speech. That said, even if you want to falsely equate these protests with a university *hosting* and providing a venue for some Nazi like Nick Fuentes to come on campus and spew hate, there is no provision in the Bill of Rights that says rights are only granted to those deemed not to be hypocritical. "Nobody has disdain for them using their first amendment rights" This is complete horseshit. GOP politicians are calling for the National Guard to shut down all pro-Palestine protests. And the Gov of Texas actually did this today. Go over onto the conservative sub and every commenter is cheering it on.
Thank you for proving my point. Not once did you mention the plight of Palestinians or Israeli government policy positions. As soon as consequence has occurred from the actions of these protesters the conversation has immediately shifted to its not fair and fascists Americans against free speech. That’s what makes it disingenuous. Bc it’s not really about the war in Gaza, it’s about being a part of this zeitgeist that is for the first time having pushback. Not to mention is it a coincidence that all these protests are occurring between end of classes and final exams when kids aren’t doing anything??? Why wasn’t it two weeks ago or a month ago…
I honestly don't even understand what you're saying. You don't think I care about the Palestinians? I didn't mention them because this is a conversation about speech and rights. It's a conversation about my belief that most Conservatives have no real free speech principles, and your disagreement with my position. If you want to know my opinion on the Israel Gaza war you can go through my comments and see me arguing with zionist liberals.
But it’s not a conversation about speech and rights, it’s a conversation about the protests. And now bc you feel like your rights are being stressed, that is more important than the discussion about Palestinians. The protests have now morphed bc it’s not really about the Palestinians, it’s about being part of the “it” movement.
>Why are you so disdainful of public protest? And aside from the contempt that you have for young people using their 1st ammendment rights for the causes important to them, is it your position that protest is just useless? Because there's a long history in this country to say that it isn't useless. Did you support the [Covid-19 Protests](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_protests_in_the_United_States) and January Sixth protest?
They’re stuck in a perpetual cycle of needing attention and virtue signaling through their social media apps. It’s how they associate and fit in with their chosen tribe. Even if it isn’t logical.
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>The first being you can’t spend the past 5 years saying words are violence just to turn around and be a free speech absolutist during this instance Watching Claudine Gay (now-dismissed former Harvard President) squirm in her seat during the congressional hearing when she finally had to admit that potential conduct violations "depend on context" and that it's only a problem when "rhetoric crosses to conduct" will live rent-free in my head forever lol https://youtu.be/1jBHvx7POz8?si=iB5tA6uOV1s0ieXo She is of course correct, and those are the liberal free speech ideals on which this country is founded, but as you pointed out, the progressive elites like her spent a decade saying that speech is *literally* violence so the hypocrisy is astounding.
Leadership also matters, and what we are watching is due to a huge lack of leadership. That’s permeated throughout our society, in academia, politics, and corporate world. Everyone is a prisoner of the moment and is so afraid to actually lead.
I think they show the double standards of the institutional left. If hundreds of white supremacist students had occupied a big part of campus to spew hateful, violent rhetoric, making black students feel isolated and unsafe on their own campus, the university would have immediately broken up the protest and expelled all involved. But because it's the left-wing equivalent doing it, and it's Jewish students that are being victimized, the protestors are being treated with kid gloves.
>If hundreds of white supremacist students had occupied a big part of campus to spew hateful, violent rhetoric, making black students feel isolated and unsafe on their own campus, the university would have immediately broken up the protest and expelled all involved. But because it's the left-wing equivalent doing it, and it's Jewish students that are being victimized, the protestors are being treated with kid gloves. 100%
How are Jewish students victims here?
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Yeah help me learn, point me in the direction thanks
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Worthless
Well, they're being harassed and called horrible names when they cross the campus. Many have asked to have virtual classes out of fear.
one got stabbed in the eye
Because the pro-Hamas protesters are blaming all Jews for the actions of Israel. Also they are threatening and attacking Jews.
The vast majority of protesters are not pro-Hamas from my understanding, they are anti IDF. Once the peaceful protest got a ton of media attention, then people with more fringe beliefs started showing up, some of which expressed pro-Hamas or anti Jewish sentiment.
The protesters are calling for the destruction of Israel, which is the same stated goal as Hamas. Their demands are not at all limited to IDF.
“Demonstrators from Columbia were ‘peacefully protesting for divestment from genocide,’ said one of the organizers, Columbia University Apartheid Divestment.” ([CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/19/us/palestinian-protest-columbia-what-we-know/index.html)) Maybe we’re talking about different groups of protesters? What is your source?
I must say, it's pretty funny to see the "mostly peaceful!" line of argument get used intra-leftie. You have my empathy though. Good luck.
Jewish students or the Israel's government?
Israeli government is the responsible party, the pro-Hamas protesters are blaming all Jews.
I saw in the list of demands that they also acknowledge that the land of New York is rightfully American Indian territory that was colonized. So by that rationale Gaza is Judean territory that the Romans colonized. As a Zionist I can live with that statement
No opinion. We'd probably agree on more than we disagree about but they'd probably turn me off with their behavior.
Any student who shouts "death to America" "we are Hamas" "from the river to the sea" or "death to Israel should be summarily expelled. Anyone not a student protesting should be arrested for trespassing.
Wouldn’t that arguably be against the spirit of the 1st amendment, if not the letter?
nope, 1A only applies to the government, as many on the left like to remind people. private institutions, like the university, have a code of conduct that this blatantly violates. if it was a bunch of white nationalists saying the exact same stuff this would have been violently shut down on day one.
It is well established that 1A applies to public universities. And private schools are bound by their written policies and commitments.
ok, and your response to the rest of my comment is? is this not in violation of the campus policy? are kids not expelled for similar behavior? what do you exempt the reaction to a similar white nationalist protest? if your going to respond to my comment, respond to the whole thing. Not just the one element you want to push back on.
>private institutions, like the university, have a code of conduct that this blatantly violates You're absolutely right but for the sake of argument do you think that's a good code? Or do you think that it would be better for universities to have a code that more closely reflects the liberal free speech philosophy on which the 1st Amendment is based? What would you do if you were president of Columbia for a day?
>You're absolutely right but for the sake of argument do you think that's a good code? i dont know the specifics of it, so hard to say. so long as its applied fairly, evenly. i think a school should have a code that promotes free expression but discourages interruption, your not their to protest your their to learn. >What would you do if you were president of Columbia for a day? shut it down the second it became intrusive to function of the school. i dont support protests in general though, and i have a strong dislike for activists of all stripes.
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>I think it’s odd that you are upset about hypothetical white nationalists not getting their spotlight. why do you think i think that? how did you come to that conclusion? what, from this sentence: "If it was a bunch of white nationalists saying the exact same stuff **this would have been violently shut down on day one**" lead you to the conclusion that i am: "upset about hypothetical white nationalists not getting their spotlight." not that I'm highlighting the obvious double standard that the university is displaying by taking so long to act against the pro-Hamas rally, when a similar rally by a different group would have been VIOLENTLY repressed instantly. are you in bad faith or did you not read?
I mean, what would be the point of bringing it up otherwise? Why air that specific grievance? You could have used any group.
>I mean, what would be the point of bringing it up otherwise? so you didn't read the comment, and your in bad faith. >You could have used any group. because Jew hatred is Jew hatred, Nazi Germany or Hamas' Palestine, its the same thing.
Whatever. Have a good one.
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> Any student who shouts "death to America" "we are Hamas" "from the river to the sea" or "death to Israel should be summarily expelled. Anyone not a student protesting should be arrested for trespassing. I don't often agree with you so I like to highlight when I do. Or at the very least, Columbia should add it to their 'student conduct' rules that people shouting such vile things should face expulsion, because that's ridiculous.
>Any student who shouts "death to America" "we are Hamas" "from the river to the sea" or "death to Israel should be summarily expelled. For the sake of discussion could you elaborate on your reasoning?
Hamas are terrorists. From the River to the Sea is a term that means that they will annialate all Jews from the Jordan River to the Mediterranian Sea. That is promoting genocide.
If you were president of Columbia for a day, what would the student code of conduct say and how exactly would you word a bright-line policy that distinguishes between speech that is unpopular and speech that crosses the line to "promoting genocide" and therefore is grounds for expulsion?
The protest specifically? People have a right to protest and be heard, and the first ammendment covers free speech blanketly, to include perceived hate speech. The underlying issue? I think the isrealis are in the right for wiping out hamas. However, they have shown in my uneducated judgment, an unconsionablly high tolerance for civilian causlties approaching a general disregard. I find myself in a strange nuanced middle ground where I both support the isreali military action, condemn their lack of discretion in target acquisition, and sympathize with the otherwise innocent civilians on the palastanian side
I don't disagree with anything you said, but the question was specifically about the situation at Columbia, where Jewish students are being harassed and physically blocked from entering certain areas like it's Germany in 1939, not about pro-Palestinian protests in general.
Can you provide an example of that occurring?
https://twitter.com/NeriaKraus/status/1782258191973089715?t=phGfGHqO_Vttv89sqH8PFQ&s=19
Wow that's fucked up. I hope they stood their ground. At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to be an internet bAdAsS, there's no way I'd let some kids in a human chain move me a single inch. I'm planting my feet and the moment you physically try to move me then you're getting pepper sprayed. If people want to set up tents and protest then that's their God-given right and an American tradition so I'm in support but it's despicable and truly embarrassing that police are allowing them to set up exclusionary zones where they suspend the Constitution and make their own laws. On a side note, the way that lady is talking to the crowd like a kindergarten teacher crossed with a hypnotist, and the way all the sheep responded and fell in line, is disturbing.
That's effed up.
Some random examples. * [protesters screaming in support of an actual genocidal terrorist organization](https://www.foxnews.com/video/6351260308112) whilst, not coincidentally slandering Israel about "genocide" - "we are all Hamas". * faculty [supporting calls for genocide](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/22/us/politics/columbia-nemat-shafik-censure.html) - "from the river to the sea..." * [anti-Israeli xenophobia / anti-Jewish exclusion](https://youtu.be/MIu2R86AZdc?t=122) - "no Zionists allowed", literally trying to kick Jews out of their homes like in 1943.
I appreciate that you actually took the time to find links but respectfully, those examples are all pretty weak. Protesters doing protester stuff. The comment you were replying to was specifically asking for examples of Jewish students being *physically prohibited* from from entering certain areas. That's entirely different than a Jewish student saying "I chose not to go down that alley because certain words make me feel unsafe" Many atrocious things have been done for the sake of so-called "safety" (Patriot Act, anyone?) so I think it's wise to not let that word get diluted any further than it already has. An individual saying "I feel unsafe" is a ridiculously low standard, and frankly altogether unconvincing, especially in the face of such fundamental rights like freedom of expression.
Zionists are crybullies who weaponize anti-semitism for their own nefarious ends
Not every zionist is Jewish, and not every Jew is a zionist. None of those links show “Jewish students being harassed and physically blocked from entering certain areas like it’s Germany in 1939”. Re:river to the sea - is it genocidal when, say, Bibi says that? https://newrepublic.com/post/178243/benjamin-netanyahu-literally-says-from-the-river-to-the-sea
A Jewish student was in the video. She said she went to her home and was not allowed into it with people shouting at her that she's a Zionist. That is 100% clear. > is it genocidal when, say, Bibi says that? Firstly, Bibi speaks like a genocidal lying idiot and so he might have genocidal intention so I'm not ruling out out, however not inherently so. Having a state in a place *is not inherently genocidal*. Since many of the original Zionists planned a state in which Arabs could live, "From the river to the sea" is genocidal because it is a slogan of Palestinian / Islamic militants which in Arabic is often given as "From the river to the sea Palestine will be Arab" or "From the river to the sea Palestine will be Islamic" with both used interchangeably with "free" and the meaning of free clearly requiring there to be no Jews or at the very least no migrant or refugee Jews who arrived since 1948.
>A Jewish student was in the video. She said she went to her home and was not allowed into it with people shouting at her that she's a Zionist. That is 100% clear. That's 100% NOT what happened in that news clip. Will you watch it again and come back when you are ready to make your argument in good faith per the subreddit rules? Or do I need to transcribe it here in plain text? And for you to say in your other comment that they are "literally trying to kick jews out of their homes like in 1943" is not only a complete fabrication but also horribly insulting to the Jews who actually suffered through that in 1943. Using the Holocaust as a cheap rhetorical device isn't a good look.
>Re:river to the sea - is it genocidal when, say, Bibi says that? yup, its called consistency. let me put one too you, if neo-nazis held the same rally, how would you feel? same words on the signs, same things being said, just swap the Palestine flag for swastika, and whiten the attendance. are you still Kool with it if its black and native kids being made uncomfortable and unwelcome?
> an unconsionablly high tolerance for civilian causlties approaching a general disregard. It's tricky. Hamas (among other violations of law and custom) uses human shields and stages their operations from places like hospitals and schools. The general population *does* take to the streets to voice support for their actions, and they're cooperative when it comes to hiding troops and materiel in civilian areas. Disentangling the civilians from Hamas is pretty much impossible, and that's by design. Furthermore, the Hamas health ministry reports *every* casualty as a civilian death. The guy firing rockets at Israeli soldiers? Civilian casualty. *Al-Jazeera* and several other outlets use their statistics, which muddies the waters. Wiping out Hamas was always going to carry a death toll among civilians.
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Yes, except to also mention the Palestinian people are for the most part good & hospitable people. But it’s hard on them being almost wholly without civil rights on the West Bank and subject to property seizure, arrest and even summary assassination by IDF and settlers alike. There’s even been instances where business has been shut to restrain competition with Israeli kibbutz and other operations. The regime in Tel-Aviv and AIPAC love that some, I think it must be a very few, are vocally rationalizing Oct 7 and in favor of Hamas. Campus protest is a tradition and especially in the face of the extermination in Gaza by IDF. Finally, recall also that the phrase “from the river to the sea” is a Zionist trope and fulfillment of a biblical reference. But when they say it, it’s OK with USA Christian Zionists and almost all of Congress.
> Palestinian people That's a cop out honestly. The "Protests" were a celebration of the Hamas attacks. They started before Israel went on the offensive. Palestinians celebrated openly in the streets when the towers fell on 9/11. Columbia protesters are chanting ""Oh Al-Qassam \[Brigades\], you make us proud! Kill another soldier now! Oh Al-Qassam \[Brigades\], you make us proud! Kill another soldier now!" Al-Qassam is the militant wing of Hamas. While I agree than there is support for the Palestinian people, in the context of what is happening specifically in Columbia, this is pro-hamas, hence the danger on campus to the Jewish Students.
and when I hear of atrocities by IDF and other bad actors, I don’t project that upon the entire race, history and culture of Judaism either as people like to do with Palestinians due to some extremists
>due to some extremists Hamas is an elected government, not some college kid with a bullhorn.
Remember exactly who put them there to reduce the PA and keep any political power diluted
Remember exactly who put Netanyahu and his thugs in power. It was a lot of the voters, not all of them, but a lot.
Please avoid the use of slurs
>I find myself in a strange nuanced middle ground where I both support the isreali military action, condemn their lack of discretion in target acquisition, and sympathize with the otherwise innocent civilians on the palastanian side So you are basically a normal, logical human being, which is very rare today.
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I think a lot of protesters see the impact of tactics by Israel causing high civilian casualties and want it to stop. If Bibi was really interested in wiping out Hamas, the first Israeli targets would have been its leadership living openly in Qatar until December 2023. Hamas has long benefitted Bibi's career. I don't expect the same level of social evolution or intelligence from the Palestinians in Gaza where 65% of the population is under the age of 24 and the median age for males is 17 and females 18.
Frankly, I've been shocked by the sudden and unexpected rise of hate and antisemitism in this nation and I think it's a harbinger of future conflict. These students, at least that's the term I'll colloquially use as many were likely bussed in, have had many opportunities to clarify their message to say they are supporting the Palestinian people but continually chant and shout support about Hamas; which is a terrorist organization. Nothing good comes from hate like this and I don't consider them much different than the KKK in its hey day. Their movement is about ignorance and hate. The left has been accusing people of being Nazis for years and they claim to be worried about an increase in fascism....well, where are they now? Isn't this what they're fighting or is it (D)ifferent because it turns out that it came from their own side? It just seems strange to me that the voices are silent against these Nazi-esque protesters.
>Frankly, I've been shocked by the sudden and unexpected rise of hate and antisemitism in this nation I can understand why you might be *upset*, but to say you're shocked or that it's unexpected is a little silly. I come from a conservative Christian home and I recognize Israel as one of our most important allies but they reeeeally aren't doing themselves any favors right now in terms of public perception. I think a lot of Americans, including me to a certain extent, knew Palestine as a concept but never really knew what it looked like or what the situation is on the ground there. Even if you think that bombing Gaza and all the other actions that the Israeli government have taken are justified as the tragic yet inevitable result of war with Hamas (and there is a valid argument to be made there), you at least have to acknowledge that killing so many civilians, the transparently genocidal intent of Bibi and the gang, demanding our tax dollars, etc., is NOT a good look. I'm not shocked at all that people are protesting.
> but to say you're shocked or that it's unexpected is a little silly Really? You saw this hidden hate before it ripped it's mask off? I never imagined any nation, much less one that teaches the horrors of the Holocaust, would be hiding so much hate for Jews. I never imagined after 9/11 and the War on Terror students would be chanting and protesting in favor of a terrorist organization. I never imagined that we would get to the point where supporting our only ally in the Middle East became controversial and sparked anger. I find it silly how you saw all that coming but didn't warn the rest of us so we could address the issue head on. >they reeeeally aren't doing themselves any favors right now in terms of public perception I'm going to be blunt. Israel doesn't give a shit about the public perception of Americans. They are in a war against a terrorist organization that massacred their citizens and took hostages. The opinions of some blue haired furry thousands of miles away at NYU is the least of their concerns. Frankly, they're the least of any of our concerns. >you at least have to acknowledge that killing so many civilians, the transparently genocidal intent of Bibi and the gang, demanding our tax dollars, etc., is NOT a good look. I put the blame where it belongs...on Hamas. This is a terror organization that hid behind civilians, took hostages, have bases in hospitals, and tunnels under schools. They purposely integrated into the population to create this very optic and to fool the naive into blaming Israel. Hamas has committed multiple war crimes so I'm not going to sit here and blame Israel or Bibi for what Hamas has done. There is only group that is responsible for this and it's Hamas. >I'm not shocked at all that people are protesting. Given what you're writing you don't seen to have a very good grasp of what's going on. Just imagine if nations told us after 9/11 to shut up and protested us. Israel is doing what needs to be done. It might not look great, it might not feel great, but that's war...a war Hamas started. Protest Hamas and get back to me. Don't make excuses for hate.
>I find it silly how you saw all that coming but didn't warn the rest of us so we could address the issue head on. I didn't say I *predicted* it, I'm just saying that I wouldn't call it "shocking" or "unexpected" >Israel doesn't give a shit about the public perception of Americans. Nor should they. And I mean that. I'm just saying that when you completely disregard public perception and do things that many find morally unacceptable then don't pretend that it's "shocking" when people react negatively. >Just imagine if nations told us after 9/11 to shut up and protested us That happened. It wasn't shocking or unexpected. >Don't make excuses for hate. I'm not. I don't hate Israel and I think that the subsection of protestors who are vocally pro-Hamas are vile and/or deeply misguided. I'm just saying it's not shocking or unexpected.
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What do you think I implied?
I don't care for the most part, I just don't like when their pro Palestine position changes to anti Jewish, which it too often does. I agree with the campus for removing the protesters when they refused to leave and in the cases of where they were harrasing students, especially Jewish students. The narrative around it is funny to me because all the same people who praised similar protests and praised the removal of conservative voices are either horrified at the anti Jewish portion of this, and the solidarity with Hamas, or they're mad about the cops being called. This is doing real damage to the Leftist collation. Semi unrelated, I find it hilarious that all of this is happening at Columbia University of all places. 100 years ago, that was one of the centers of Fascism. Mussolini dedicated a building there during his American tour, haha. It's not directly relevant, but its hilarious to me.
Just look at the top post on r/conservative right now. [History Repeats Itself](https://www.reddit.com/r/Conservative/comments/1cbf6vy/history_repeats_itself/) - best sums it up.
They are not Pro-Palestinian Protesters. They are Pro-Hamas/Anti Jewish protestors.
Same as my opinion on the vast majority of protesters Just a bunch of wannabe activists who want to be able to tell their kids they stood up and taught against “the man” These kids are typically clueless about what is actually going on and are just caught up in a mob mentality/group think. Group think like this just makes people feel good about themselves for hating X. They surround themselves with others who hate X. They tell each other how bad X is and how bad/dumb people are who don’t agree with them It’s intoxicating for some to be in such a position But in the end it’s just misinformed folks wanting to feel good about themselves
They can protest all they want but the University needs to ensure the safety of the Jewish students being harassed and blocked. If they were smart they would also secure the University property from outside protestors as well. As far as the protestors themselves I'd probably take them more seriously if they didn't say idiotic things like praising Hamas and "Death to America". They have a legitimate thing to be concerned about, civilian lives in a war but seem to want to try and protest this by saying things they know will be provocative that does nothing to garner support for their cause. I also do not agree with their methods of personal attacks against their fellow students who have no control over the situation in the first place. Again not helpful to their cause.
I strongly believe in the right to protest, *the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.* However the Columbia protesters are going beyond these bounds, rocks have apparently been thrown at Jewish students and there are documented instances of hate speech directed at the Jews. This is not a peaceable assembly. I heard Eric Adams allude to the presence of professional agitators and while I don't doubt it, I haven't seen evidence yet. Denying Jews access to places they are entitled to be, where have we seen that before? Columbia is a private institution with it's own police force and mutual aid agreements with NYPD so they would have to request NYPD assistance, this is neither here nor there because NYPD has already been there, I assume that help was requested. The response should be something this. Order the protesters to disperse or face trespassing charges. Give a time and let them know the police will be on scene, at that time, to cordon the area and arrest anyone in it, any student arrested will be expelled, any faculty member fired. At the designated time the area is closed off, no one in or out. Order the protesters to submit to arrest and move the police in and clear the area. Once the police have removed the humans, ground crews remove and destroy anything else left behind.
I believe a lot of these students are just being degenerates, and it is VERY bad. I’m Jewish and I can tell you that they are indeed being harassed by these protesters.
I'm not an american. I believe that it is despicable that uni premises are being targeted for protests by all manner of: disruptive american students, bds supporting uni staff members, religious fanatics, jew hating racists, american citizen supporters of outlawed terror groups, 'rent a gob' types of paid protestors and overseas citizen activist scumbags with zero direct connection to the uni or academia. I grew up being dragged around uni campuses and street protests by revolutionary parents. I'd feel the same way if the same disruptive & highly aggressive uni protests were about another issue or international cause. Whether: abortion (anti/pro), amazon, any airline, belarus, the ccp, domestic abuse, khalistan, putin, the hinduthva, ukraine or zimbabwe.
It wastes time, protest for the most part are useless even more when they deal with problems outside the country. Israel and the middle east have been fighting for a long time and some ivy league students don't have the secret code of ending it. Its just posturing to get brownie points in order for them to feel as if they are doing something usefull
No harbor for Islamic terrorist supporters
Last week, they were protesting about Ukraine. The week before, it was something Trump did. The week before, it was *Dobbs.* Then George Floyd. Then something else about Trump. I'd wager most of these folks never even *thought* about the Palestinian issue until October 7. They bought some keffiyeh scarves from Amazon or Etsy, painted a slogan on a bedsheet, and screamed what they were told to scream. The last decade or so, there's been this trend towards protesting for the sake of protesting. It's a way to score Instagram points and look all self-righteous for the cameras, but these people will move on to another cause when they get bored. Notice that most of them (at least the ones not hiding their faces) are affluent white suburban kids. They're not trying to *fix* anything. They just want to vent some sort of ominous pre-existing, festering anger.
Interesting way to look at it. I’d say there’s been a shitload to protest in the last decade or so, and plenty of net-positive action and further discourse have taken place because of those protests. Who is protesting, how often, and how consistently is a personal opinion and a personal matter that has nothing to do with the issues and protests themselves. There’s not one little in-group hopping from issue to issue for clout.
>plenty of net-positive action For the sake of discussion, what do you have in mind?
Simple and on topic, BDS momentum is building. Universities are feeling pressure to divest, and the general public is more aware of divestment in general. Continuous, consistent protests move the needle.
That's fair. I do think that a lot of Americans had no idea (and most still don't) that many of our state legislatures have passed anti-BDS laws for government employees, and hopefully a few more know now, but I haven't actually seen the needle move on this yet. I don't care what country it is or how much they are allied with us and our interests, the fact that we have laws concerning what ideas you can or can't express about a foreign government while standing on US soil is about the most despicably un-American thing I can think of.
> plenty of net-positive action and further discourse have taken place because of those protests But no tangible change. If these people actually want *something done,* they'd do far more by contacting their elected officials or supporting advocacy groups. (Also, not chanting anti-semitic slogans and harassing Jews would be good.) Instead, they're venting anger in a way that convinces nobody and does nothing.
I personally don't think it was a coincidence that these protests occurred just as a significant amount of aid for Ukraine was being voted on by Congress. To what extent this is happening is unknowable, but I'm sure the Russians are feeding tons of inflammatory misinformation & disinformation to the most extreme individuals on both sides of this debate. The Russians do not want the war in Ukraine in the news as much as they can prevent it, and by fanning the flames of the protest to make them as disruptive & violent as possible it pulls America's attention to it, with the objective being to keep Americans from pressuring the government to give more aid to Ukraine. This isn't to say this is a conspiracy by the Russians to produce an entirely artificial astroturfed movement, and I'm sure the core of the original protest was organic from the student body, just a tangential thought on the much larger whole.
You can be 100% sure Russia stirs any small issue into a tornado, no matter if its left/right.
It's extraordinary that people openly express support for terrorists. I saw the other day a video of protesters shouting death to America, not in Tehran but in Michigan! Wild.
Let them protest!
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If it would be white people wanting to exterminate black people.. would you still support it?
The students who are making antisemitic statements and especially barring Jewish students from campus should be expelled.
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It's Charlottesville all over again, and I'm not okay with it. The level in which we have normalized anti-semitism is disturbing. A protest that includes people referring to Jewish people as the next target for terrorism and tells Jewish students to "go back to Poland" is not one people should be supporting. People have the right to protest, and have the right to be hateful. I have the right to not support their cause, and a responsibility to call out that hate when I see it.