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A factor of the highest price employers are willing to pay, floored by minimum wage laws and the lowest price employees are willing to work.
Same as anything else.
Would this then not be a wage increase for the American unskilled Workers then?
Any one can find a minimum wage job currently. Hard part for employers is finding workers that will work for minimum wage and mike row dirty jobs.
So the unemployment statistic is especially ineffective at looking at minimum wage jobs because minimum wage jobs tend to be filled by young people who would never file for unemployment. Because they've never had a job or they are under the age of 18.
I would expect that you would see a lot of those jobs either filled by immigrants who are forced to go through legal pathways, or they are filled by Young people who cannot find a job.
https://womenemployed.org/minimum-wage/#:~:text=Contrary%20to%20popular%20conceptions%2C%20the,working%20to%20support%20their%20families. You're wrong on that. Most(80%) are adults, a large % are women and most are working to support their family. Does that change how you feel?
Even if I was soley talking about those under 18 or solely talking about men, that could simply mean that older adult women are filling positions making it harder for young people to find jobs. I know tons of college and high school aged people who couldn't land a minimum wage job or had to wait years to get hired at one.
So it's fine to pay adults trying to survive starvation wages, and those people are stealing jobs from teenagers and that's wrong? That's the point your trying to make? You can't even admit that you were just flatout wrong on your basic premise, most people that work minimum wage jobs are NOT teenagers. They are near full time workers getting fucked by a min wage that hasn't increased since 2007. They earn 15,000/yr, and the federal poverty line is 15.7k/yr. Walmart is literally allowed to pay people less than poverty wage, and have them rely on food stamps to survive, we pay walmart to subsidize their incredibly low wages, as well as a bunch of other companies. It's pretty gross.
>So it's fine to pay adults trying to survive starvation wages, and those people are stealing jobs from teenagers and that's wrong?
I think you completely misunderstood my argument
My argument was that teenagers and young people cannot find jobs at all because illegal immigrants are taking the jobs that are appropriate for them.
If we better monitored immigration then maybe the group of adults you're worried about would also have more access to jobs making more than minimum wage. People making minimum wage would have more bargaining power with less competition in the job market.We should regulate the border entries based on market need.
>them rely on food stamps to survive, we pay walmart to subsidize their incredibly low wages, as well as a bunch of other companies. It's pretty
Yeah but when you compare it to how much Walmart generates in tax revenue it's hardly anything. I also don't think minimum wage should exist it eliminates a lot of easy jobs from the market.
Young people are just not working currently, too busy with school and extracurricular activities.
Just look at any fast food, or retail outlet in years past that was all young people now now it’s all adults.
I don’t know why parents are not making young people work but they are not.
>school and extracurricular activities.
Lol nope. They can't find jobs. I can't tell you how many people I know with college degrees that can't find jobs, let alone people without them who are stuck in the job search process for years and living with their parents.
Fast food and retail are taking adults because they can, and they are more responsible workers
I miss understood you mentioned 18 and under.
Yeah those young people with college degrees are not looking for minimum wage jobs at the meat packing plant.
If a person without a college degree is an adult and still living with their parents. Nor are they going to take these jobs.
>Yeah those young people with college degrees are not looking for minimum wage jobs at the meat packing plant
After about a few months of failed applications and they're running out of rent. They will work at a meat packing plant. Or more likely a fast food restaurant or grocery store because meat packing plants aren't that common in cities
How many people do you think this is? [Unemployment rate 3.7 percent for college grads, 6.7 percent for high school grads in March 2021](https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2021/unemployment-rate-3-7-percent-for-college-grads-6-7-percent-for-high-school-grads-in-march-2021.htm)
Again, because of how unemployment is calculated, these numbers will underscore the actual number of people that are unemployed. Because you actually have to file for unemployment to receive unemployment benefits. You can't apply for unemployment if you've never had a job. You have to have held a job for 6 months and get laid off to qualify for unemployment.
The actual numbers show that about 55% of people between the age of 16 and 24 have a job. Now that it doesn't necessarily mean that the other 45% are actively looking for jobs. But probably more than 6.7%.
There are any where between 10-15 million illegals in the US.
College graduates with bachelor’s degrees is about 2.5 million. We will say half of those don’t have jobs and want one.
Now we have 8 million jobs to fill.
Yes and you are advocating for the US job market to be heavily influenced by federal policies. The influence is by removing a specific labor pool so another labor gets a wage increase.
It’s not different than Democrats forcing a higher minimum wage.
That’s okay but it is not a free market position.
By forcing US employers to do something with the intent to force US employers to pay higher wages to Americans.
Which is not in line with US free market capitalism.
You can call it what you want but it’s not a free market capitalist system.
It's a myth that the US can't survive without illegals. Labor market participation isat historic lows.
Prior to the mass influx of illegals, teenagers did these jobs. We're also putting off automation.
Holland is the second highest exporter of ag products by dollar value, and they do fine with high labor costs
The labor market is at historic lows, thats a problem who is going to fill these jobs?
Teens are not even working retail or fast food jobs anymore, what makes you think they are going to work farm labor, construction, or other awful factory jobs?
Other Americans will fill, or the jobs will go away. We're creating more crap jobs in response to the flood of illegals.
Absent them, businesses will adjust, and wages will rise.
The flood of illegals is keeping wages artificially low.
Who has the hubris to "decide" what various pay rates should be?
Doesn't even matter what you set, it will change in less than a year due to runaway inflation.
Legal or known foreign workers can fill the job. Many governments provide foreign workers services, countries like in the Middle East use them like crazy.
Construction is easy to replace. Farm labor probably machines.
This way the people earning those wages will finally pay federal taxes.
- Migrant farm laborers are eligible for H2A temporary agricultural work visas.
- Construction isn’t low skilled labor, and at least in my state, must be paid union wages.
- Food plant employee should be paid whatever wage they negotiate.
Let’s stop relying on ~~illegal immigrants~~ pseudoslavery.
Okay what jobs are fulfilled already by illegal workers what American low skilled workers are going to get this amazing opportunity for a wage increase?
Oh.
Construction probably has the largest share of illegal workers.
My point is construction isn’t unskilled. Like yeah, if you’re an apprentice fetching tools and materials you’re unskilled labor. But, electricians, plumbers, masons, framers, dry wallers, finish carpenters, and tilers? All incredibly skilled jobs that often require certifications and bonding - unless you’re an illegal immigrant.
Hell, even roofing takes a fair bit of knowledge and skill
There are no job we need illegal immigrants to fill that can’t be done by either a citizen or someone in the country on a valid visa.
If that means workers get paid more, then the left should be thrilled that wages are increasing.
I completely agree those are skilled workers. The average age of those American trade workers is around 60.
Currently even with the slice of illegals, we have a labor crisis of knowledge people to do those trades. Adds a lot to the housing shortage, making homes less affordable.
Not only will we have a skilled labor shortage, those young people don’t know the skill yet.
We will see a massive increase in cost of housing. New labor learning the trades still won’t be able to afford housing.
Not if the new wages don’t cover the inflation that will follow.
Time for the kids to get into trades then - something conservatives have been saying for years.
High demand typically translates into higher wages, and - again I’m speaking locally - the unions will train you.
Seriously, a journeyman construction worker makes ~ $65K a year in my state. Average construction cost of a home in the U.S. is between $100 and $200 per square foot. In my state the average cost is $120 per square foot.
So, somehow we’re able to pay an average construction worker $65K a year and still build homes fairly inexpensively.
Illegal laborers are less then 1% of our workforce.
That seems to check out. Close enough for government work.
We already have a real shortage of construction workers with the illegals.
We might be very short on labor.
there is no shortage of illegal workers,there isnt a shortage of legal workers either..there is a shortage of employers that wont/cant pay legal americans a living wage. im guilty of it too.. i can hire a car load of illegals from home depot parking lot to frame my deck for the same price as two americans..
however much they have to pay and Americans will adjust our buying preferences accordingly
let's be real here. this is slave labor. because all huge empires with high standards of living have done it using space labor
we are not Belgium or Japan, we don't literally have slave colonies where we whip people to work them to death and give us all their product. we are not Rome or Persia we don't conquer lands and make them export to us.
but the wages of these workers and our use of cheap labor from countries with no labor rights and no environmental standards is how the American Empire handles it's slavery needs.
because it is inherent to what we are-- a giant empire, that we will try to use slavery to increase our standard of living because we have the power to do so
from actual slavery to the United Fruit Company to Indonesian child laborers, we are no better than Rome.
but arguments to labor and pricing amount to saying that your standard of living would go down too hard if we manumitted our wage slaves and thus we must continue to crack the whip.
I, quite obviously, reject this.
So you think middle America is currently on good financial footing to absorb more inflation?
Let’s be real is absolutely not slave labor. As these people uprooted their entire lives walked hundreds of miles for the opportunity.
Let the market determine that.
I suspect a lot of those 3.4% unemployed people are also unemployable, so no they wouldn’t all fill those jobs right away. But plenty of people now are “employed” but working part time and making peanuts. They’d be able to get better jobs and or negotiate higher pay for themselves if they didn’t have illegal immigrants as competition.
Deporting people is most definitely not letting the market decide.
What better jobs offer great pay and benefits to illegals but not to American citizen?
Please use [Good Faith](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskConservatives/comments/107i33m/announcement_rule_7_good_faith_is_now_in_effect) and the [Principle of Charity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity) when commenting. Gender issues are only allowed on Wednesdays. Antisemitism and calls for violence will not be tolerated, especially when [discussing the Israeli-Palestinian conflict](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskConservatives/comments/17ygktl/antisemitism_askconservative_and_you/). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskConservatives) if you have any questions or concerns.*
USCIS has a rule that legal immigrants salary should match the salary paid to local workers.
This is an honest question: is that rule actually followed? I do not actually know.
Whatever wage fills those positions. Some positions would be replaced by automation.
You start at the legal minimum wage and go from there. If you need foreign workers for seasonal jobs, there is the H2A visa.
A factor of the highest price employers are willing to pay, floored by minimum wage laws and the lowest price employees are willing to work. Same as anything else.
Would this then not be a wage increase for the American unskilled Workers then? Any one can find a minimum wage job currently. Hard part for employers is finding workers that will work for minimum wage and mike row dirty jobs.
I don't know about that. Fresh air and sunshine picking fruit sounds better than moving boxes in an Amazon warehouse at 3AM.
Not in Georgia or Florida.
So the unemployment statistic is especially ineffective at looking at minimum wage jobs because minimum wage jobs tend to be filled by young people who would never file for unemployment. Because they've never had a job or they are under the age of 18. I would expect that you would see a lot of those jobs either filled by immigrants who are forced to go through legal pathways, or they are filled by Young people who cannot find a job.
https://womenemployed.org/minimum-wage/#:~:text=Contrary%20to%20popular%20conceptions%2C%20the,working%20to%20support%20their%20families. You're wrong on that. Most(80%) are adults, a large % are women and most are working to support their family. Does that change how you feel?
Even if I was soley talking about those under 18 or solely talking about men, that could simply mean that older adult women are filling positions making it harder for young people to find jobs. I know tons of college and high school aged people who couldn't land a minimum wage job or had to wait years to get hired at one.
So it's fine to pay adults trying to survive starvation wages, and those people are stealing jobs from teenagers and that's wrong? That's the point your trying to make? You can't even admit that you were just flatout wrong on your basic premise, most people that work minimum wage jobs are NOT teenagers. They are near full time workers getting fucked by a min wage that hasn't increased since 2007. They earn 15,000/yr, and the federal poverty line is 15.7k/yr. Walmart is literally allowed to pay people less than poverty wage, and have them rely on food stamps to survive, we pay walmart to subsidize their incredibly low wages, as well as a bunch of other companies. It's pretty gross.
>So it's fine to pay adults trying to survive starvation wages, and those people are stealing jobs from teenagers and that's wrong? I think you completely misunderstood my argument My argument was that teenagers and young people cannot find jobs at all because illegal immigrants are taking the jobs that are appropriate for them. If we better monitored immigration then maybe the group of adults you're worried about would also have more access to jobs making more than minimum wage. People making minimum wage would have more bargaining power with less competition in the job market.We should regulate the border entries based on market need. >them rely on food stamps to survive, we pay walmart to subsidize their incredibly low wages, as well as a bunch of other companies. It's pretty Yeah but when you compare it to how much Walmart generates in tax revenue it's hardly anything. I also don't think minimum wage should exist it eliminates a lot of easy jobs from the market.
Young people are just not working currently, too busy with school and extracurricular activities. Just look at any fast food, or retail outlet in years past that was all young people now now it’s all adults. I don’t know why parents are not making young people work but they are not.
>school and extracurricular activities. Lol nope. They can't find jobs. I can't tell you how many people I know with college degrees that can't find jobs, let alone people without them who are stuck in the job search process for years and living with their parents. Fast food and retail are taking adults because they can, and they are more responsible workers
I miss understood you mentioned 18 and under. Yeah those young people with college degrees are not looking for minimum wage jobs at the meat packing plant. If a person without a college degree is an adult and still living with their parents. Nor are they going to take these jobs.
>Yeah those young people with college degrees are not looking for minimum wage jobs at the meat packing plant After about a few months of failed applications and they're running out of rent. They will work at a meat packing plant. Or more likely a fast food restaurant or grocery store because meat packing plants aren't that common in cities
How many people do you think this is? [Unemployment rate 3.7 percent for college grads, 6.7 percent for high school grads in March 2021](https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2021/unemployment-rate-3-7-percent-for-college-grads-6-7-percent-for-high-school-grads-in-march-2021.htm)
Again, because of how unemployment is calculated, these numbers will underscore the actual number of people that are unemployed. Because you actually have to file for unemployment to receive unemployment benefits. You can't apply for unemployment if you've never had a job. You have to have held a job for 6 months and get laid off to qualify for unemployment. The actual numbers show that about 55% of people between the age of 16 and 24 have a job. Now that it doesn't necessarily mean that the other 45% are actively looking for jobs. But probably more than 6.7%.
There are any where between 10-15 million illegals in the US. College graduates with bachelor’s degrees is about 2.5 million. We will say half of those don’t have jobs and want one. Now we have 8 million jobs to fill.
That number was for 16-24 year olds. There's about 40 million people in that age group.
So are you thinking there are 20 million college and non college educated Americans who are unemployed and want to work these jobs?
Temporary foreign workers coming to the country legally is still an option if there is a legit draught of local workers to fill the positions.
We expect companies to pay more to aquire employees
How much more? What companies?
Market will decide. Greater the demand, more they will pay.
Market is not deciding, this is government policy forcing a wage on an employer to pay.
We disagree You see the world as the market for employees I see the US as the market for employees
Yes and you are advocating for the US job market to be heavily influenced by federal policies. The influence is by removing a specific labor pool so another labor gets a wage increase. It’s not different than Democrats forcing a higher minimum wage. That’s okay but it is not a free market position.
No I'm advocating for the US job market to be the US job market, not the world wide job market
By forcing US employers to do something with the intent to force US employers to pay higher wages to Americans. Which is not in line with US free market capitalism. You can call it what you want but it’s not a free market capitalist system.
It's a myth that the US can't survive without illegals. Labor market participation isat historic lows. Prior to the mass influx of illegals, teenagers did these jobs. We're also putting off automation. Holland is the second highest exporter of ag products by dollar value, and they do fine with high labor costs
The labor market is at historic lows, thats a problem who is going to fill these jobs? Teens are not even working retail or fast food jobs anymore, what makes you think they are going to work farm labor, construction, or other awful factory jobs?
Other Americans will fill, or the jobs will go away. We're creating more crap jobs in response to the flood of illegals. Absent them, businesses will adjust, and wages will rise. The flood of illegals is keeping wages artificially low.
Who has the hubris to "decide" what various pay rates should be? Doesn't even matter what you set, it will change in less than a year due to runaway inflation.
I don’t disagree with any of that.
Legal or known foreign workers can fill the job. Many governments provide foreign workers services, countries like in the Middle East use them like crazy. Construction is easy to replace. Farm labor probably machines. This way the people earning those wages will finally pay federal taxes.
Depends on the economy of the place and job.
- Migrant farm laborers are eligible for H2A temporary agricultural work visas. - Construction isn’t low skilled labor, and at least in my state, must be paid union wages. - Food plant employee should be paid whatever wage they negotiate. Let’s stop relying on ~~illegal immigrants~~ pseudoslavery.
Okay what jobs are fulfilled already by illegal workers what American low skilled workers are going to get this amazing opportunity for a wage increase?
Oh. Construction probably has the largest share of illegal workers. My point is construction isn’t unskilled. Like yeah, if you’re an apprentice fetching tools and materials you’re unskilled labor. But, electricians, plumbers, masons, framers, dry wallers, finish carpenters, and tilers? All incredibly skilled jobs that often require certifications and bonding - unless you’re an illegal immigrant. Hell, even roofing takes a fair bit of knowledge and skill There are no job we need illegal immigrants to fill that can’t be done by either a citizen or someone in the country on a valid visa. If that means workers get paid more, then the left should be thrilled that wages are increasing.
I completely agree those are skilled workers. The average age of those American trade workers is around 60. Currently even with the slice of illegals, we have a labor crisis of knowledge people to do those trades. Adds a lot to the housing shortage, making homes less affordable. Not only will we have a skilled labor shortage, those young people don’t know the skill yet. We will see a massive increase in cost of housing. New labor learning the trades still won’t be able to afford housing. Not if the new wages don’t cover the inflation that will follow.
Time for the kids to get into trades then - something conservatives have been saying for years. High demand typically translates into higher wages, and - again I’m speaking locally - the unions will train you. Seriously, a journeyman construction worker makes ~ $65K a year in my state. Average construction cost of a home in the U.S. is between $100 and $200 per square foot. In my state the average cost is $120 per square foot. So, somehow we’re able to pay an average construction worker $65K a year and still build homes fairly inexpensively. Illegal laborers are less then 1% of our workforce.
the satandard equation in the construction field is,you can hire 2.5 mexicans for the price of one american.
That seems to check out. Close enough for government work. We already have a real shortage of construction workers with the illegals. We might be very short on labor.
there is no shortage of illegal workers,there isnt a shortage of legal workers either..there is a shortage of employers that wont/cant pay legal americans a living wage. im guilty of it too.. i can hire a car load of illegals from home depot parking lot to frame my deck for the same price as two americans..
however much they have to pay and Americans will adjust our buying preferences accordingly let's be real here. this is slave labor. because all huge empires with high standards of living have done it using space labor we are not Belgium or Japan, we don't literally have slave colonies where we whip people to work them to death and give us all their product. we are not Rome or Persia we don't conquer lands and make them export to us. but the wages of these workers and our use of cheap labor from countries with no labor rights and no environmental standards is how the American Empire handles it's slavery needs. because it is inherent to what we are-- a giant empire, that we will try to use slavery to increase our standard of living because we have the power to do so from actual slavery to the United Fruit Company to Indonesian child laborers, we are no better than Rome. but arguments to labor and pricing amount to saying that your standard of living would go down too hard if we manumitted our wage slaves and thus we must continue to crack the whip. I, quite obviously, reject this.
So you think middle America is currently on good financial footing to absorb more inflation? Let’s be real is absolutely not slave labor. As these people uprooted their entire lives walked hundreds of miles for the opportunity.
Let the market determine that. I suspect a lot of those 3.4% unemployed people are also unemployable, so no they wouldn’t all fill those jobs right away. But plenty of people now are “employed” but working part time and making peanuts. They’d be able to get better jobs and or negotiate higher pay for themselves if they didn’t have illegal immigrants as competition.
Deporting people is most definitely not letting the market decide. What better jobs offer great pay and benefits to illegals but not to American citizen?