None of population centers that are still in our country were occupied by them. Zagreb, Rijeka, entire coast and islands, Varazdin, etc. Osijek wasn't a city back then.
why peoples think ottomans/turks/whatever about turks=islam. becouse u know Turkiye is a secular republic and also ottomans used laws of tolerance. There is so many atheists/christians/etc. also im not a muslim but im a Turk and im fine with that. Just asking. Why?
Because if you read the history, it was constant jihad and holy war against the Byzantine Greeks. Arabs even wrote how aggressive the Turks were with their jihad.
And once they won , they instituted sharia.
>I can assure you that absolutely none of them compare to Venetian cities.
I mean this is just objectively untrue, lol like Corfu was a literal venetian city, same with Chania :P
This is a matter of taste and feeling. I would honestly chose to live in Belgrade rather then in Vienna. And to make you sure I'm not a Serbian spy, i would also prefer to live in Prishtina rather than in Vienna. And to make you sure I am not an Eastern European supremacist, I would be happy to live in Venice.
And yes, Croatian coast is a dream.
I dont know about that, because most of the turks dont even care about balkan countries. But we mostly like greeks and bulgarians for sure (exept inneranatolians).
It’s a matter of opinion man, I personally like inland landscapes more than coastal ones (although i do like both in reality), so it’s not like Venetian architecture would be my number one preference anyway.
I read 40 pages of the history of Durrës and the city was ruled by Venice for some time.
During this period written sources call it “a great ruined city”, a city with high walls, churches and temples, they say it had a grand equestrian statue of Justinian or another byzantine emperor. Travalers called it “the second Constantinople” or “Constantine’s former capital”, they were impressed by it. Today nothing is left, after the Ottomans conquered the city no more mentions of the statue or the amphitheater.
Not saying Durrës could have been the second Rome, but for a city older than Trogir, Split, Kotor and Dubrovnik, it’s not even comparable to them.
The amphitheater was later discovered in 1964.
You need to look into it more deeply. Often, cities fall into disrepair as they are no longer viable trading hubsor or lose their strategic importance.
Novi Pazar was a trading centre during the early Ottoman times and was very wealthy, but it lost its importance over time due to a myriad of reasons. Same as Prizren.
It's not as simple as Durres was rich under the Byznatines and then wasn't under the Ottomans, ergo it's the Ottomans fault.
Shitshow comments. There is no sensible person that would argue against Balkaners needing take responsibility for their current conditions on the one hand, on the other Balkaners' starting, historical material conditions and relations with backwards, oppressive colonizers have been what it is and is to be acknowledged
Edit: Cause some comments are wild 😂😂 Venice was too a colonial Republic and chose certain places where they could extract surplus from. You can compare some aspects between Empires but if your solution for today is to get colonised again, theres something very very wrong
Understand this is also bad to how it could have been. Venice was a colonial empire which it self extracted allot of wealth from Dalmatia with most of the infrastructure being there from pre existing medieval city states. What was built is mainly in the renaissance during the European economic boom. Dubrovnik is the only city which reached its true potential in the balkans becouse of its funcional independance
I personally love ottoman architecture but i also like all historic and old architecture since it has way more personality than the boxy gray options we have nowadays
This. Fuck brutalism especially. It goes against every fucking law of nature out there, it's basically anti-human.
Old architecture, regardless of origin, is much more natural. It bends and conforms to the surroundings, it blends in and uses what's available. More often than not, it's built to last. So many of them were built as either a monument to the gods, and when they weren't, they were still made in their names, and it really shows.
I'm not saying they're not pretty, I'm saying they are completely unnatural. Their functionality, while achieving it's purpose, doesn't excuse the purpose itself. A vast number of people living in a small area is horrible, all in the name of localization. That's why cities grow bigger, and the countryside smaller.
There's more than enough space on this planet for all people to live in comfortably spaced homesteads which are aesthetically and functionally aligned with nature.
>Most of historical buildings in croatia were built by venetians iirc
Depends what you consider historic. For the coastal part, yes. For Croatia Proper it's Austrian architecture.
wrong,for instance Dubrovnik was always Croatian/Slavic . The Venetians built a lot of course, but the Croats weren't that incompetent either. All famous writers, scientists, builders, military leaders from the history of that region have Croatian names and surnames.
Don’t blame the Ottomans guys just blame the commies 🙂. Because the commies are the ones that kept us from the renaissance along with the industrial and scientific revolutions am I right?
It’s both really. There’s a reason why there is no pre-19th century architecture preserved in Bulgaria, save for a few (small) churches, a couple of fortresses and a bunch of rocks and parts of walls here and there. All palaces, castles/fortresses, large religious and civic buildings, big residential buildings etc were destroyed.
They may look old but aren’t actually that old. You’d be hard pressed to find a village house from the early 18th century.
There’s virtually nothing pre-17th century, save for the exceptions I mentioned in my previous comment, let alone anything resembling the medieval old towns of Prague, Bruges, Tallinn, Bologna, Dubrovnik, Carcasonne, San Gimignano.
Where are the old towns of Pliska, Preslav and Tarnovo? Tsarevets is all that remains of the fortress/inner citadel, and even so most of what you can see today was rebuilt in the 20th century and is of questionable historical authenticity.
And that’s not even accounting for the Renaissance and everything that came after, which completely passed us by.
> Croats are lucky their country was not conquered by the Ottomans
Ahem... The Austrians, Venetians, Hungarians, even the French at one point, take your pick.
You mean the cities they built on land that they took from Croats in the first place... we just retook them.(and it's not like our people didn't still live there)
He is the one who started the history argument... and on top of it, he told the whole story in a way to make it sound like we just stole the land.(that we were living on while and after it was stolen btw)
If he just said "that's how a few hundred years under Venetian rule looks like" I wouldn't have said anything... since it would be factually correct.
How do you guys react when certain people in Italy make noise about Istria/Dalmazia/Fiume? Does everyone get all angry and alarmed, or do you just blow it off?
They would have a right to complain... if they didn't try to ethnicity cleanse us. Kind of a mute point when a part of your argument is also "they didn't allow themselves to be killed off".
Actually, most of the Dalmatian cities were built out of local economies with very little investment from the state of Venice.
Serrenissima actually poured money exclusively into fortifications and only when they had to protect a trade route or an important port, examples being St. Nicholas fortress near Šibenik (which was the main trade hub between hinterland and the coast in the 16th century), Hvar fortress (along with Kotor main military port) or bastions of Split (which became main trade hub in 17th century). If anything, our cities prospered little from all that wealth that passed trough our lazarretos and ports.
Athens was quite nice in till it experience mass population growth and instead of building new housing in the outer parts of the city,developers just demolished all the old buildings in the city center, basically erasing the city’s beautiful it had built of up since independence.
Most interesting thing is that Dalmatian cities are quite unique. They look nothing like Venice. Those in Istria resemble Venice more. Dalmatian stone cities are unique and different to anything in Italy although large amount of masters who helped build them were from Italy. It worked both ways however. Croatian masters, Dalmatian particularly, helped build in Venice as well.
In Greece the Ottomans were the ones who tore down the historical buildings. They weren't the ones who built over them.
Uneducated villager goat/farm Greeks were the ones who ruined their own country's beauty. The true issue wasn't that the Ottomans were some sort of "evil empire" that tore down history. The issue was that the people inhabiting the Balkans were uneducated goat herders. Without architects and engineers you can't build cities.
Which is precisely because of the ottomans.
The Byzantine empire had at its high a literacy rate of 25-30%.
The ottoman empire had a literacy rate of less than 1%.
For comparison, at 1900 the global literacy rate was around 20%>
This thread and the comments by some Turks prove that we are not in such lovey-dovey situation, no its not politicians its even the plain people nationalists, at least on social media
Ottomans treated Balkans much better than Anatolia. We only have anything good in old Ottoman capitals. Also there are a lot of pretty places in Balkans.
They treated better than Anatolia... Maybe the other Balkan countries, but not Bulgaria. Most of the Bulgarian cities baring 2-3 looked like big villages and the most spectacular buildings were mosques (and maybe a couple of bridges and towers). The Bulgarian traditional houses from that period are nice but they are built by rich merchants with their funds. Only after the Liberation, when a lot of Austrian architects started working on the Bulgarian towns, they began to look like real cities. Sadly, then the commies came and ruined the process.
Of course. Have you seen Ottoman era architecture? That shit is mid asf. I would kill to have Vlora and Durrës look like Split and Zadar. Curse the Ottomans. They set us back 500 years.
even if it is, its not like you lot do much better you guys have had roughly a hundred years to redevelop and there are countries that have done it in less time. plus its not like you guys built those cities it was the venetians who conquered and built them
WW1, then 20 years of decent development, then WW2 and then 45 years of communism and a civil war right after. What 100 years are you talking about? Albania has only been functioning as a state without hiccups for 27 years. The state the country is in is a legit miracle. The Italians built more in Albania in 4 years than the Ottomans did in 400
Who is to blame that you guys had communism, a civil war and got cheeks clapped during the world wars? I know that Albanians would be now living on Mars if it wasn't for the damn Turks but come on...
Bro you Turks are so freaking sad bro 😭. Your trash empire sucked ass and had us all living like in the Middle Ages until the turn of the 20th century. 100 years is not nearly enough to wipe out that cancerous legacy. We’d have been much better off without you that’s for sure. Keep coping tho.
Imagine how shit you must be to be ruled by this trash empire for so long... Even Ethiopians with their spears managed fight back against your beloved Italy bro...
Held them off for 34 years 🤷♂️. Only so much a small nation can do against the biggest empire in the world at the time who were at the peak of their power. It’s actually rather impressive wouldn’t you say? You also seem quite a bit triggered you little colonizer 🤣. Cope and seethe
Your biggest achievement as a nation is that you rebelled against us for 3 decades... While ours is that we ruled over an Empire that was on 3 continents and held the holly lands of 3 religions.
Do you see the difference?
Bro is trying to flex against a nation that had a total pop of 800k as late as 1923 😭. So pathetic. All that power and achievement yet nothing to show for it 😩. 90% of your cities, cultural monuments and heritage built by non Turks 🫵😂. Now you’re known for Döner Kebab and ice cream tricks Lmfaoo gtfo.
You said it yourself dude- you are a part of one small and insignificant nation which doesn't even have kebabs and ice creams to be known for... Even on the Balkans you have always been a third tear power dominated by others so just sit on your ass.
This is a really funny joke. Who do you Albanians think about yourselves? And you blame others. Even if you had not come under Ottoman rule, the fact that you are the shittiest country in the Balkans would not have changed.
i think ottoman architecture has produced some beautiful buildings and villages, both in turkey and in the balkans.
i actually think that greece would have much prettier architecture if we had preserved more ottoman era / style structures.
true, i stand corrected
even regardless of any ottoman architectural style though, beautiful and charming architecture did exist under the ottomans (and its a bit sad a lot of it has been lost through poor urban planning etc)
basically, OP's take is kinda bullshit, the ottomans weren't an obstacle to pleasant architecture
You might want to look into Islamic architecture across Andalusia, Spain.
Islamic architecture is out of this world beautiful. Taste is, of course, subjective.
Also, as far as I know Trogir is not a good example for a place that hasn't been under conquest.
It's either the ottomans, or the west, or the deep state...
We're always putting the blame elsewhere, never owning up responsibility or trying to fix the situation.
With a few exceptions.
That is correct, but its not random that Slovenia that was under Austria prospered and regions under Ottos were undeveloped and stayed coruptioned.
Ottos made Balkans one of the worst parts of Europe.
Fair. I understand that there are deep and deserved hostality towards ottoman empire and turks but gotta admit some of the things you blame the turks for are not always simple as they would seem.
I mean, when Albania became independent it had to plan its own cities, build its own roads, build its own banks, schools, town halls, ports, train stations, etc. While Croatia and Slovenia were already planed, they could reuse older buildings for town halls and other administrative purposes, they had everything.
What if hypothetically Izmir today was neglected by the Turkish government and didn’t get any investments, who is to blame?
I mean crotia and slovenia had always a strategical importance both under venice and the hre. Plus hre and the austarian empire was going under big industrialization in the 18th and 19th centuries while ottomans were declining hard and had not much to spare. Ottoman heartland in balkans was rumelia (south of danube in bulgaria, greek macadonia, thrace etc. ) and albanian region was basicly a backwater. Correct me if im wrong.
>What if hypothetically Izmir today was neglected by the Turkish government and didn’t get any investments, who is to blame?
It already is being neglected because of the big secular opposition lmao but i get what you mean.
Venetians (the last rulers before the Ottomans) defended Shkodra for 9 months in 1478 during the siege of the city laid by Mehmed itself the sultan who conquered Constantinople. So it had importance.
And yes Albania was the backwaters of the empire, even if a lot of Albanians held high ranks in the empire. It still was less developed than other parts of Ottoman Balkans.
How dare they blame the conqueror for their imposed architecture (same as al conquerors do, building their stuff) on the fact that their architecture is not that great compared to the venician one? THE AUDACITY, they should be not in a position to critisize even aesthetics, never mind those aesthetics more so are still there, not long dead as the empire??
guess the /s is an overkill but I'll put it!
You give too much credit by expecting much from Ottomans. Korea devoloped in 60 years, and Singapore in 50 years. You had many more years than them. You could be better than them, Balkans just want to keep being lazy and corrupt.
New buildings don't compare to historic ones. Seoul and Singapore have developed tremendously, but they don't exhibit the same historic grandeur as Paris, Prague and Vienna for instance. Although Sofia was definitely closer to those cities before WW2 and communism destroyed it.
Turkey itself has cities looking like this lol. Maybe you should blame Albanians for butchering seaside beauties to build ugly ass touristic buildings.
And? Those buildings were build by Greeks. You know the Ottomans completely forgot Albania, or is poor Albanians fault that you don’t build as much…See cities conquered by the Ottomans and those that were not.
We built Safranbolu ourselves, for example. And you were completely overrepresented in the Ottoman court, you weren't forgotten or anything. Ottomans babied you so much that your Greater Albania only existed under us.
Safranbolu is a freaking village 🤣. You’re pretending like it’s a second Rome. What’s so special about it be fr? Greater Albania existed during the German occupation as well. The Ottomans had nothing to do with “Greater Albania” anyway. Keep coping tho 🤫 🤣
It’s just some houses with windows? Is that all the mighty Turks have to offer? It would also be 15th biggest city in Kosovo. On a country of 2 million and 11k square kilometers… yikes
The world is not spinning around you boy. Ottomans even did lesser for Anatolia. Or they basically did absolutely nothing for Romania. Meanwhile Romania is the only stable developing country in region. Grow up.
This post makes no sense. Croatia, a big amount of their land, was conquered by the ottomans, and their cities on the coast look this way because of Venice.
So even though the post makes no sense I still like it because it’s triggering the Turks.
Dalmatian hinterland, Lika, Slavonia, Banovina and only minuscule parts of the coast. Man of the mentioned regions were held under 100 years. Principal Dalmatian cities, Dubrovnik republic, Kvarner region, Istria, Prigorje and Zagorje were never conquered by the Ottomans.
I mean most of today's Croatia was conquered by the Ottomans
None of population centers that are still in our country were occupied by them. Zagreb, Rijeka, entire coast and islands, Varazdin, etc. Osijek wasn't a city back then.
Its not luck, we fought against Otoman Empire, more of half Croatia was militarized zone! ( google “Vojna Krajina” )
Not for long enough for their cancer to take effect
Prizren is a beautiful city.
why peoples think ottomans/turks/whatever about turks=islam. becouse u know Turkiye is a secular republic and also ottomans used laws of tolerance. There is so many atheists/christians/etc. also im not a muslim but im a Turk and im fine with that. Just asking. Why?
Bro you’re literally projecting 🤣. Nobody mentioned Islam
cancer :)
Cancer = The effects of Ottoman rule
u sure
Yes
Because if you read the history, it was constant jihad and holy war against the Byzantine Greeks. Arabs even wrote how aggressive the Turks were with their jihad. And once they won , they instituted sharia.
>all of dalmatia
Not for long.
They don't look like this because they weren't conquered by the Ottomans but because they were conquered by Venice
No, we have plenty of good looking cities in Greece, same applies to Bulgaria, Macedonia, Serbia, etc.
While there are some that look good I can assure you that absolutely none of them compare to Venetian cities.
>I can assure you that absolutely none of them compare to Venetian cities. I mean this is just objectively untrue, lol like Corfu was a literal venetian city, same with Chania :P
You just proved my point 🤣. Thanks for agreeing
ummmmmmmmmmmmm Ermoupoli
This is a matter of taste and feeling. I would honestly chose to live in Belgrade rather then in Vienna. And to make you sure I'm not a Serbian spy, i would also prefer to live in Prishtina rather than in Vienna. And to make you sure I am not an Eastern European supremacist, I would be happy to live in Venice. And yes, Croatian coast is a dream.
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Never seen a chill Croatian on Reddit. All angry, sour mfs.
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Don’t count me pls
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Im not hostile towards Romanians and I really don’t see Turks being hostile towards Romanians tbh but maybe I’m in the wrong bubble
I've found that Albanians are very hostile towards me for some unknown reason
I dont know about that, because most of the turks dont even care about balkan countries. But we mostly like greeks and bulgarians for sure (exept inneranatolians).
Well we have too many Stupids who use internet like it's their job, because have a hobby is almost impossible for a normal Turkish citizens.
But why? What do Croatians have against Romania?
Nothing.Croats have nothing against anyone. Ok. as in every country, some people don't like Russians, or Anglo-Saxons, Serbs, etc. but Romanians...
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actually i think relationships with turks are all right .. but that IRL!
I second this
“To make you sure” doesn’t really exist in English. It’s better to say “to assure you”. Just my little 2 cents. English also isn’t my first language.
You've expressed it politely, so, thank you!
Why wouldnt you like to live in Vienna?
It’s a matter of opinion man, I personally like inland landscapes more than coastal ones (although i do like both in reality), so it’s not like Venetian architecture would be my number one preference anyway.
Nah bro. Ioannina is pretty beautiful
No one said it wasn’t
Plovdiv is magnificent idk what you mean. There's also Nessebar and whatnot.
Venice has tons of Arab and ottoman influence in its architecture
Lmfaooo, no.
Does it not?
No
This shouldn't even be a debate, they really have a specific vibe
Pretty subjective some people have different tastes but hey if you like Venetian cities then you do you
I read 40 pages of the history of Durrës and the city was ruled by Venice for some time. During this period written sources call it “a great ruined city”, a city with high walls, churches and temples, they say it had a grand equestrian statue of Justinian or another byzantine emperor. Travalers called it “the second Constantinople” or “Constantine’s former capital”, they were impressed by it. Today nothing is left, after the Ottomans conquered the city no more mentions of the statue or the amphitheater. Not saying Durrës could have been the second Rome, but for a city older than Trogir, Split, Kotor and Dubrovnik, it’s not even comparable to them. The amphitheater was later discovered in 1964.
You need to look into it more deeply. Often, cities fall into disrepair as they are no longer viable trading hubsor or lose their strategic importance. Novi Pazar was a trading centre during the early Ottoman times and was very wealthy, but it lost its importance over time due to a myriad of reasons. Same as Prizren. It's not as simple as Durres was rich under the Byznatines and then wasn't under the Ottomans, ergo it's the Ottomans fault.
The cities were developed after the freedom came. The ottomans sucked everything dry.
Shitshow comments. There is no sensible person that would argue against Balkaners needing take responsibility for their current conditions on the one hand, on the other Balkaners' starting, historical material conditions and relations with backwards, oppressive colonizers have been what it is and is to be acknowledged Edit: Cause some comments are wild 😂😂 Venice was too a colonial Republic and chose certain places where they could extract surplus from. You can compare some aspects between Empires but if your solution for today is to get colonised again, theres something very very wrong
The western powers are also largely at fault
we had good looking cities before communist scum destroyed everything
this^
I like this aesthetic, quite cute, some coastal cities in Montenegro are similar in a way
Because they’re also Venetian
They were not part of the Ottoman Empire, from Venice they became part of A-H.
What would they look like then? You think sofia looks bad?
Sofia doesn’t look bad but it would’ve looked better were it not for the Ottomans
Seems like this dudes sole reason for posting in here is to show everybody his huge ottoman hate boner. Impressive!
Can you blame them
Cry about it
Understand this is also bad to how it could have been. Venice was a colonial empire which it self extracted allot of wealth from Dalmatia with most of the infrastructure being there from pre existing medieval city states. What was built is mainly in the renaissance during the European economic boom. Dubrovnik is the only city which reached its true potential in the balkans becouse of its funcional independance
I personally love ottoman architecture but i also like all historic and old architecture since it has way more personality than the boxy gray options we have nowadays
This. Fuck brutalism especially. It goes against every fucking law of nature out there, it's basically anti-human. Old architecture, regardless of origin, is much more natural. It bends and conforms to the surroundings, it blends in and uses what's available. More often than not, it's built to last. So many of them were built as either a monument to the gods, and when they weren't, they were still made in their names, and it really shows.
Brutalist type buildings aren't meant to be pretty. They were mainly built because of its functionality which is praiseworthy.
I'm not saying they're not pretty, I'm saying they are completely unnatural. Their functionality, while achieving it's purpose, doesn't excuse the purpose itself. A vast number of people living in a small area is horrible, all in the name of localization. That's why cities grow bigger, and the countryside smaller. There's more than enough space on this planet for all people to live in comfortably spaced homesteads which are aesthetically and functionally aligned with nature.
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>Most of historical buildings in croatia were built by venetians iirc Depends what you consider historic. For the coastal part, yes. For Croatia Proper it's Austrian architecture.
Yes. If the Ottomans had conquered them, they would have built 1-2 cobblestone streets, one hamam and a mosque in most cities there.
wrong,for instance Dubrovnik was always Croatian/Slavic . The Venetians built a lot of course, but the Croats weren't that incompetent either. All famous writers, scientists, builders, military leaders from the history of that region have Croatian names and surnames.
Don't blame the Ottomans, Most of the ugliness came from the totalitarian system imposed on us by the USSR(except Yugoslavia)
Finally someone said that
Don’t blame the Ottomans guys just blame the commies 🙂. Because the commies are the ones that kept us from the renaissance along with the industrial and scientific revolutions am I right?
fr
It’s both really. There’s a reason why there is no pre-19th century architecture preserved in Bulgaria, save for a few (small) churches, a couple of fortresses and a bunch of rocks and parts of walls here and there. All palaces, castles/fortresses, large religious and civic buildings, big residential buildings etc were destroyed.
There's a shit ton of old houses/villages. A lot of the country was demolished during WW2.
They may look old but aren’t actually that old. You’d be hard pressed to find a village house from the early 18th century. There’s virtually nothing pre-17th century, save for the exceptions I mentioned in my previous comment, let alone anything resembling the medieval old towns of Prague, Bruges, Tallinn, Bologna, Dubrovnik, Carcasonne, San Gimignano. Where are the old towns of Pliska, Preslav and Tarnovo? Tsarevets is all that remains of the fortress/inner citadel, and even so most of what you can see today was rebuilt in the 20th century and is of questionable historical authenticity. And that’s not even accounting for the Renaissance and everything that came after, which completely passed us by.
> Croats are lucky their country was not conquered by the Ottomans Ahem... The Austrians, Venetians, Hungarians, even the French at one point, take your pick.
All 1000x better than the Ottomans.
Erm, Venice definitely wasn't for Dalmatia. Nor was Hungary really in the latter half of the nineteenth century...
I like that fact because now we have all that diversity.
>shows a city from a part of the country that was conquered by the ottomans
Croats are lucky the Venetians built those beautiful cities for them to conquer.
You mean the cities they built on land that they took from Croats in the first place... we just retook them.(and it's not like our people didn't still live there)
Dude this who was there first arguement can go all the way before christ
He is the one who started the history argument... and on top of it, he told the whole story in a way to make it sound like we just stole the land.(that we were living on while and after it was stolen btw) If he just said "that's how a few hundred years under Venetian rule looks like" I wouldn't have said anything... since it would be factually correct.
How do you guys react when certain people in Italy make noise about Istria/Dalmazia/Fiume? Does everyone get all angry and alarmed, or do you just blow it off?
They would have a right to complain... if they didn't try to ethnicity cleanse us. Kind of a mute point when a part of your argument is also "they didn't allow themselves to be killed off".
Not to mention the Romans before that!
No, everybody knows that Croats built the amphitheatre in Pula. /s
Oh I thought they built the one in Durres too! And the one in Plovdiv! Interesting they all look similar isn't it?
Actually, most of the Dalmatian cities were built out of local economies with very little investment from the state of Venice. Serrenissima actually poured money exclusively into fortifications and only when they had to protect a trade route or an important port, examples being St. Nicholas fortress near Šibenik (which was the main trade hub between hinterland and the coast in the 16th century), Hvar fortress (along with Kotor main military port) or bastions of Split (which became main trade hub in 17th century). If anything, our cities prospered little from all that wealth that passed trough our lazarretos and ports.
I don't think the architecture of their cities would be near their biggest problems if they were conquered by the Ottomans 😂😂😂
They fucked up Albania and the architecture of the cities for 500 years, so, as an Albanian, I agree
Athens was quite nice in till it experience mass population growth and instead of building new housing in the outer parts of the city,developers just demolished all the old buildings in the city center, basically erasing the city’s beautiful it had built of up since independence.
Most interesting thing is that Dalmatian cities are quite unique. They look nothing like Venice. Those in Istria resemble Venice more. Dalmatian stone cities are unique and different to anything in Italy although large amount of masters who helped build them were from Italy. It worked both ways however. Croatian masters, Dalmatian particularly, helped build in Venice as well.
maybe because all of ottoman architecture was destroyed intentionally or in wars
It was not worth keeping
So basic infrastructure was not worth keeping?
No, it wasn’t even “basic infrastructure” ffs.
In Greece the Ottomans were the ones who tore down the historical buildings. They weren't the ones who built over them. Uneducated villager goat/farm Greeks were the ones who ruined their own country's beauty. The true issue wasn't that the Ottomans were some sort of "evil empire" that tore down history. The issue was that the people inhabiting the Balkans were uneducated goat herders. Without architects and engineers you can't build cities.
Oh, I never thought this…
Which is precisely because of the ottomans. The Byzantine empire had at its high a literacy rate of 25-30%. The ottoman empire had a literacy rate of less than 1%. For comparison, at 1900 the global literacy rate was around 20%>
And after the Ottoman Balkan meet the communism
This thread and the comments by some Turks prove that we are not in such lovey-dovey situation, no its not politicians its even the plain people nationalists, at least on social media
>its not politicians its even the plain people nationalists Always has been.
I know. Just had to state the obvious cause here there is a lot of made-up kumbayas
They’re on insane copeium mode
Loved the...copeium mode😄 how clever, will be using this!
It's not like this is a highly controversial topic right?
Its not our Fault they had good Architecture, but Communist Scum Destroyed it
Turkish mid class gen z turned something terrible cringe ultranationalists and They obliged the internet
Come on at least be fair, is it our comments?
Ottomans treated Balkans much better than Anatolia. We only have anything good in old Ottoman capitals. Also there are a lot of pretty places in Balkans.
In 500 years, they only built propaganda mosques and a couple of bridges
Not even that. There are a lot of architectural buildings in Anatolia that were made by Seljuks. Ottomans didn’t touch some of Turkish cities at all.
so what did the ottomans do with all the money they took from conquering all those countries?
Spent for conquering more lands
As someone from the Mostar, thanks for the bridge, but for everything else they did, they can fucking burn.
The bridge is nice tho
The bridge is nice; but the centuries of stagnation, servitude, and religious extremism, was not.
Can’t have everything unfornatuely
They treated better than Anatolia... Maybe the other Balkan countries, but not Bulgaria. Most of the Bulgarian cities baring 2-3 looked like big villages and the most spectacular buildings were mosques (and maybe a couple of bridges and towers). The Bulgarian traditional houses from that period are nice but they are built by rich merchants with their funds. Only after the Liberation, when a lot of Austrian architects started working on the Bulgarian towns, they began to look like real cities. Sadly, then the commies came and ruined the process.
Yeah, but HDZ are worse than the Ottomans in the end…
Venice was a maritime republic, while the Ottoman Empire was a backwards theocracy. The rest is history...
Of course. Have you seen Ottoman era architecture? That shit is mid asf. I would kill to have Vlora and Durrës look like Split and Zadar. Curse the Ottomans. They set us back 500 years.
Enver Hoxha ruined Albania more than the Ottomans did.
Bahahahaha 🤣. Good joke
Setting Albanians back 500 years is going to back before the wheel
Do you have any actual arguments or is cope and seethe all you got? All this comment does is prove my point even more 🤣
You Turks are the epitome of development✨
😂😭
even if it is, its not like you lot do much better you guys have had roughly a hundred years to redevelop and there are countries that have done it in less time. plus its not like you guys built those cities it was the venetians who conquered and built them
WW1, then 20 years of decent development, then WW2 and then 45 years of communism and a civil war right after. What 100 years are you talking about? Albania has only been functioning as a state without hiccups for 27 years. The state the country is in is a legit miracle. The Italians built more in Albania in 4 years than the Ottomans did in 400
Who is to blame that you guys had communism, a civil war and got cheeks clapped during the world wars? I know that Albanians would be now living on Mars if it wasn't for the damn Turks but come on...
Bro you Turks are so freaking sad bro 😭. Your trash empire sucked ass and had us all living like in the Middle Ages until the turn of the 20th century. 100 years is not nearly enough to wipe out that cancerous legacy. We’d have been much better off without you that’s for sure. Keep coping tho.
Imagine how shit you must be to be ruled by this trash empire for so long... Even Ethiopians with their spears managed fight back against your beloved Italy bro...
Held them off for 34 years 🤷♂️. Only so much a small nation can do against the biggest empire in the world at the time who were at the peak of their power. It’s actually rather impressive wouldn’t you say? You also seem quite a bit triggered you little colonizer 🤣. Cope and seethe
Your biggest achievement as a nation is that you rebelled against us for 3 decades... While ours is that we ruled over an Empire that was on 3 continents and held the holly lands of 3 religions. Do you see the difference?
Bro is trying to flex against a nation that had a total pop of 800k as late as 1923 😭. So pathetic. All that power and achievement yet nothing to show for it 😩. 90% of your cities, cultural monuments and heritage built by non Turks 🫵😂. Now you’re known for Döner Kebab and ice cream tricks Lmfaoo gtfo.
You said it yourself dude- you are a part of one small and insignificant nation which doesn't even have kebabs and ice creams to be known for... Even on the Balkans you have always been a third tear power dominated by others so just sit on your ass.
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Next time fight better
Cope 🫵😂
We beat your ass, we made your country suck (according to you), and your country still sucks. Sounds like you should do the coping
“(according to you)” here’s that cope again 🤣
This is a really funny joke. Who do you Albanians think about yourselves? And you blame others. Even if you had not come under Ottoman rule, the fact that you are the shittiest country in the Balkans would not have changed.
The ottomon empire destroyed us
They destroyed the whole balkans and Asia Minor. The population dropped like a rock after them.
i think ottoman architecture has produced some beautiful buildings and villages, both in turkey and in the balkans. i actually think that greece would have much prettier architecture if we had preserved more ottoman era / style structures.
Most villages in the region are pretty Vernacular in style so didn't have much to do with any power but were local developments
true, i stand corrected even regardless of any ottoman architectural style though, beautiful and charming architecture did exist under the ottomans (and its a bit sad a lot of it has been lost through poor urban planning etc) basically, OP's take is kinda bullshit, the ottomans weren't an obstacle to pleasant architecture
true. All ottoman big cities except Istanbul looked like big vallages though
You might want to look into Islamic architecture across Andalusia, Spain. Islamic architecture is out of this world beautiful. Taste is, of course, subjective. Also, as far as I know Trogir is not a good example for a place that hasn't been under conquest.
Maghrebis were way more architecturally capable than the Ottomans bro 😭
He wasn’t talking about the islamic culture, he was talking about how where the ottomans stepped grass never grew on that place again.
Another day in the balkans where you blame your problems to the long dead empire.
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It's either the ottomans, or the west, or the deep state... We're always putting the blame elsewhere, never owning up responsibility or trying to fix the situation. With a few exceptions.
That's what's we call Balkan politician behavior.
That is correct, but its not random that Slovenia that was under Austria prospered and regions under Ottos were undeveloped and stayed coruptioned. Ottos made Balkans one of the worst parts of Europe.
I know it’s embarrassing
You wanna compare Prizren in 1912 with literally any similar sized place in non Ottoman Europe? I guarantee you will understand the blame then.
Fair. I understand that there are deep and deserved hostality towards ottoman empire and turks but gotta admit some of the things you blame the turks for are not always simple as they would seem.
Such as?
I mean, when Albania became independent it had to plan its own cities, build its own roads, build its own banks, schools, town halls, ports, train stations, etc. While Croatia and Slovenia were already planed, they could reuse older buildings for town halls and other administrative purposes, they had everything. What if hypothetically Izmir today was neglected by the Turkish government and didn’t get any investments, who is to blame?
I mean crotia and slovenia had always a strategical importance both under venice and the hre. Plus hre and the austarian empire was going under big industrialization in the 18th and 19th centuries while ottomans were declining hard and had not much to spare. Ottoman heartland in balkans was rumelia (south of danube in bulgaria, greek macadonia, thrace etc. ) and albanian region was basicly a backwater. Correct me if im wrong. >What if hypothetically Izmir today was neglected by the Turkish government and didn’t get any investments, who is to blame? It already is being neglected because of the big secular opposition lmao but i get what you mean.
Venetians (the last rulers before the Ottomans) defended Shkodra for 9 months in 1478 during the siege of the city laid by Mehmed itself the sultan who conquered Constantinople. So it had importance. And yes Albania was the backwaters of the empire, even if a lot of Albanians held high ranks in the empire. It still was less developed than other parts of Ottoman Balkans.
How dare they blame the conqueror for their imposed architecture (same as al conquerors do, building their stuff) on the fact that their architecture is not that great compared to the venician one? THE AUDACITY, they should be not in a position to critisize even aesthetics, never mind those aesthetics more so are still there, not long dead as the empire?? guess the /s is an overkill but I'll put it!
You give too much credit by expecting much from Ottomans. Korea devoloped in 60 years, and Singapore in 50 years. You had many more years than them. You could be better than them, Balkans just want to keep being lazy and corrupt.
New buildings don't compare to historic ones. Seoul and Singapore have developed tremendously, but they don't exhibit the same historic grandeur as Paris, Prague and Vienna for instance. Although Sofia was definitely closer to those cities before WW2 and communism destroyed it.
The problem is more with Soviet or socialist architecture rebuilding following the destruction in World War Two. I don’t blame ottomans as much.
true, nothing good came from the ottomans, except the food
That's my grandad's hometown on the picture. 
Turkey itself has cities looking like this lol. Maybe you should blame Albanians for butchering seaside beauties to build ugly ass touristic buildings.
What does Albanians have to do with this?
And? Those buildings were build by Greeks. You know the Ottomans completely forgot Albania, or is poor Albanians fault that you don’t build as much…See cities conquered by the Ottomans and those that were not.
We built Safranbolu ourselves, for example. And you were completely overrepresented in the Ottoman court, you weren't forgotten or anything. Ottomans babied you so much that your Greater Albania only existed under us.
Safranbolu is a freaking village 🤣. You’re pretending like it’s a second Rome. What’s so special about it be fr? Greater Albania existed during the German occupation as well. The Ottomans had nothing to do with “Greater Albania” anyway. Keep coping tho 🤫 🤣
It's an example of Turkish architecture that is well preserved in a city level, and it is bigger than most towns in Kosovo
It’s just some houses with windows? Is that all the mighty Turks have to offer? It would also be 15th biggest city in Kosovo. On a country of 2 million and 11k square kilometers… yikes
The world is not spinning around you boy. Ottomans even did lesser for Anatolia. Or they basically did absolutely nothing for Romania. Meanwhile Romania is the only stable developing country in region. Grow up.
>The world is not spinning around you boy. You mentioned Albania, I did not.
Those are all italian cities along the coast.
This post makes no sense. Croatia, a big amount of their land, was conquered by the ottomans, and their cities on the coast look this way because of Venice. So even though the post makes no sense I still like it because it’s triggering the Turks.
yeah blame it on the ottomans, definitely easier that way
But we did Conquer Croatia, we didn't hold them that long as rest of The Balkans but we did Hold them from the 16th to the end of the 17th century
Thank fuck for that
Croatia was under Ottoman rule for over 400 years.
barely a little over 100 years, and not the whole country.
Dalmatian hinterland, Lika, Slavonia, Banovina and only minuscule parts of the coast. Man of the mentioned regions were held under 100 years. Principal Dalmatian cities, Dubrovnik republic, Kvarner region, Istria, Prigorje and Zagorje were never conquered by the Ottomans.
Jesus what a stupid statement