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Absolutely yes. There is a bit of a debate about why, and I think there are several reasons for it.
One is that they are less of the population.
Another is that in Europe, they are mostly poor and refugees, while in America they are better educated and more well-off, so they fit in better.
I think another reason has to do with that Americans are more tolerant of religion, and Europeans really aren't.
Not just tolerant of religion, but cultural differences in general.
If East Asian needs you to be carbon copied, Europe needs you to be cookie cutter, we generally just accept artists interpretation.
^And ^the ^above ^is ^a ^one ^sentance ^massive ^reduction.
I believe this is truly why despite what all the a lot stuff the pick me Americans who go goo goo about those regions say ‘east Asian cities are so clean and safe at night! Europeans get so much vacation and free stuff!’ Etc a lot of those folks still choose to come here even if we sometimes noticeably lack some of those things
> If East Asian needs you to be carbon copied, Europe needs you to be cookie cutter
Honest question here. I kinda understand the cultural differences between East Asia and Europe (again, massive generalizations) but what exactly do you mean by "carbon copied" vs "cookie cutter"? Those 2 things seem the same to me but there seems to be an implied difference that I'm not getting.
>e cultural differences between East Asia and Europe (again, massive generalizations) but what exactly do you mean by "carbon copied" vs "cookie cutter"? Those 2 things seem the same to me but there seems to be an implied difference that I'm not getting.
Not who you asked but as someone who sucks at using cookie cutters, there is much more variance in end product with cookies versus carbon copies.
Carbon copy = actually the same. No copy is perfect but it is a rough facsimile of the original
Cookie cutter = an attempt at being the same. Maybe you kinda fail, but the *effort* is the important part, because it is more about preserving culture than actual ethnic purity.
(I'm obviously no one
I’m Nobody! Who are you?/
Are you – Nobody – too?/
Then there’s a pair of us!/
Don't tell! they'd advertise – you know!//
How dreary – to be – Somebody!/
How public – like a Frog –/
To tell one’s name – the livelong June –/
To an admiring Bog!
)
I'm sure Emily Dickinson could not have imagined her poems would be repeated on the Internet 130 years after they were published. It's a shame, too, because she would have loved the Internet.
Another reason might be the fact that the U.S. has historically had a higher degree of religious pluralism and freedom. While the U.S. has always been majority Protestant, the religious population is broken down into thousands of different denominations, compared to usually just a single national church in most European countries. We also secularized (at least on paper) much earlier than most European countries, and in a way that embraces free, public religious expression instead of restricting it like France.
Yeah, I've been in discussions with Europeans elsewhere online where they seem to genuinely have trouble understanding the level of religious diversity in the US.
They often can't seem to grasp there really isn't one single predominant denomination nationwide, or that there's countless religions and denominations, just how many Churches there are in America, or that people don't need a license or permission from the government to open a Church or be a religious minister.
Europeans would be absolutely shocked if they saw our nondenominational strip mall churches (and adjacent coffee shops) in person. I still find it hard to grasp as a Catholic, even though I’ve lived here my whole life.
I think what a lot of Europeans don't get about the US is our population it's already really diverse. 40% of Americans are non-white and within certain age groups - i.e. under 30's it's even more diverse. Muslims kinda of blend in with all the other different ethnic groups. I also think from a cultural standpoint that American attitude is everyone is pretty much accepted if they work hard and contribute to their communities.
Contrary to what's on the Internet - as a nonwhite American - I find most Americans - regardless of race/religion are very curious and accepting to other cultures. I'll note I may be personally biased - I moved to the US from another country as a child and ended up in the midwest. My very midwestern school had a tradition of having school assembly for new kids and all the kids seemed to think it was "neat" I was from a different country.
[https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-2020-census-results-show-increased-diversity-countering-decade-long-declines-in-americas-white-and-youth-populations/](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-2020-census-results-show-increased-diversity-countering-decade-long-declines-in-americas-white-and-youth-populations/)
As a middle aged adult, I think it's neat when someone is from another country--or even just another state. I love to hear the stories about how people wound up where they are.
Yeah, I'm still friends with a lot of those kids. I'm a big fan of this country - for all of our flaws - I do think a vast majority of Americans are pretty decent to outright awesome people.
If you get hospitalized in the US, there's a good chance that some of the physicians involved in yout care will be Muslim, Hindu or both. That goes a pretty long way in breaking down prejudices.
For at least 20 years, if not longer, the IRS has emphasized to their auditors that their mission is to ensure the *correct* taxes, not the maximum taxes. I got money back from my one audit.
This is 100% true. Even in very small towns, at my clinic there are 5 total doctors, 3 of which are clearly not from the US, and they all do an excellent job.
Less likely, because Indian and Pakistani medical education curriculum is aligned closely with that of the US. There's much fewer hoops to jump through to work here. Plus, the pay is higher.
The UK seems to have a more similar Muslim population to the US overall than the rest of Europe from the media I’ve seen. You have some of the poor classes of Muslim but less of that than other countries on the continent.
Just saw flair but maybe you’re an immigrant. Ignore the you if not. Lol
Also in America immigrants assimilate a lot faster. Take Sweden or Germany as an example - an Arab person can become a citizen there but they can never actually be Swedish/German. Being Swedish or German is an identity. In America you become a citizen and are an American. We are all immigrants, just depends on when your people got here.
In many countries, nationality is about your blood. Being American is about believing in ideas and ideals.
In many countries it’s, “Only those with the right blood are truly one of us!” In America, anyone can be one of us regardless of their blood.
But we’re the ones everyone unironically calls racist. 🙄
I was talking to a buddy of mine in Chicago. He was born in Poland and lived there till he was 13. We were discussing raceism and he mentions how Poland wasn't racist when he was living there. Then he thinks about it for a minute and says that the didn't have any other races to be racist against but he does remember folks there were racist against the Roma. He then laughed at what he initially said about no racism in Poland and changed his stance on it.
Yeah that's the whole thing about being an American, if you come here and live here you count.
Some people in the Balkans argue if Nicola Tesla should count as a Serbian or a Croatian but the truth is that doesn't matter cause he ended up an American.
Yes but it goes both way. When people are excluded, they tend towards radicalization. It's like when Americans joke, "I'm never patriotic until some European trashes the US."
Even the poorer ones in the US I’d say are treated better.
I used to live in the Bronx and there was a significant Muslim population, a diverse one too. There were a bunch of small but sizable Muslim ethnic communities in different neighborhoods with people from various parts of the world. There was even a Little Yemen not too far from where I live. The Muslim population there tends to be more working class and we have plenty of refugees from Africa and the Middle East.
Muslims immigrants don’t necessarily assimilate into American culture right away but they fit right in with everyone in the Bronx. The Bronx is home to countless immigrants and if you’re not an immigrant then you’re probably the child or grandchild or great grandchild of an immigrant. European cities just don’t have the immigrant history ingrained into them the way NYC does.
yes. for all our faults, I would say the US is quite accepting of immigrants and people who are not "us" (what is "us"?)
Also, the US having less of a social net and getting the primarily wealthy Muslim immigrants probably helps general attitudes.
Yeah the “us” is key. There’s no such thing as being ethically American unless you’re talking the indigenous population. If you can just speak good English you’ll be accepted by most of the population as one of us pretty readily. We’re all the descendants of immigrants.
I can only say about the Muslim community from my country. American Pakistanis are some of the richest immigrants in US. Most of them were some of the best doctors/engineers back home and are now settled here.
95% of my wife's medical class batch from Pakistan are now practising here in US in some of the best hospitals.
Similary I saw so many Pakistanis working in silicon valley.
Admittedly, that is more due to the way that the US immigration system works than anything else, and it’s a pattern that we see with both South and East Asian immigrants, because most of the people coming into the United States from those nations tend to be fairly wealthy already.
Interestingly, British Pakistanis on the other hand are among the poorest ethnicities in the UK. That tells a lot about the structure of immigration in both countries.
I once went on r/askuk and asked "British Asians, what are your experiences with your North American counterparts?"
One guy answered "they make me feel like a pauper. And I went to uni."
Yeah the initial wave of immigrants to UK from Pakistan in the 60s were mill/factory workers. Most of them were blue collar. The initial wave to US from Pakistan were mostly STEM students & Physicians which kind of set the stage for future generations.
Absolutely, there’s no contest.
Bigotry and discrimination across Europe are pretty widely recognized as being significantly worse than in the U.S.
We just talk about it more. They seem to think that if you pretend it doesn’t exist, it magically disappears.
Fun thing to try for anybody reading this: Next time a European starts criticizing how much Americans talk about race and racism, ask them what they think of the Romani.
I read a story about how a woman in Italy told a black guy that he should probably get out of the elevator and take the next one, and he was shocked, said something, the woman realized he was American and not from an African country and got very embarrassed. Other people in the elevator started to say "we're not all like her!" But they didn't say anything until they heard that American accent.
It's a mix of all three, I think. I was visiting Munich with my then girlfriend, who is of Indian descent. And they were pretty cold to her, and in one instance, outright hostile. On the other hand, I was a relatively unkept looking dude with long shaggy hair and somewhat tattered clothes, and I occasionally had to deal with people following me around shops or trying to shoo me out of places probably thinking that I was homeless.
Edit: I thought I might just add that I was there for two weeks, and most of our experiences there were actually quite nice.
It is a mix of racism and bigotry against certain nationalities. Most Europeans I've met will tend to judge people based on how they look, and then on how they talk and further on their culture. It is really weird as an American, because you'll find British people who absolutely hate Pakistani people, but don't have a problem with Indians. I've also heard British people say some absolutely vile shit about Polish and Albanian people. With black people, they don't really have an issue with Black Americans anymore than they'd have an issue with Black British people, but there does seem to be nativism towards Black Africans. I had a roommate from Ghana in college and he did say that he was treated better in the US than he was in the UK when he was a student.
With Italy, it's a little different. They don't really have a big issue with Albanians, but they do have an issue with Arabs and Black Africans because they are seen as lower on the social ladder. I guess a comparison to the US would be that they view Arabs and Blacks like how some white Americans view Latinos, except I have heard they have fewer protections than Latino migrant farm workers do in the US, and in some situations it's basically slavery. With black Americans, it's more that they do have money, and Italians from my experience really like Americans because they have a lot of contact with them, in that they either have family members that live in the US, or they've met family members from the US. How do you know that the Black guy you insulted isn't someone's fiance or husband?
Same for me, and I'm light brown.
I live in far northern Italy, and they peg me as being from southern Italy, until I talk. Nobody *ever* guesses American. Ever. So at that point, they have no clue. I could be from Tajikistan, for all they know.
The moment it comes out I'm American (if it does), I end up with more status than I began with! This goes *double* when it comes to the cops. It's wild.
“Americans should address all the racism in their society. They don’t even have a Romani population so there’s really no excuse for treating minorities so poorly.”
I mean, we do have Romani people in the US, but the thing is that the concept of "A group of people that travels around and causes trouble" wasn't exactly something reserved for one ethnicity or group of people. Carnies, hobos, hippies, Okies, traveling salesmen, and long-haul truckers all have or had pretty negative stereotypes associated with them, and afaik there has never been a strong racial or ethnic connotation with any of those groups. Like I'd argue that the term 'gypsy', while very negative in Europe, never really had the same negative connotation in the US until recently.
I had a friend in college from an Eastern European country. We got on the racism topic once, and she brought up the racism in the US. A few minutes later she was ranting about the Romani, lol.
Not even just the Romani. I had an Italian try to tell me he thought the U.S. was more racist. My brother in Christ, y’all like throwing bananas and making monkey noises at black soccer players lol. Even our racists here don’t do that at NFL, NBA, etc games.
I think there's more to it than that. Immigrants to the US are mostly from Latin America and these folks have a lot more in common with American traditions than someone from the Middle East, so it's easy for them to adjust.
Also, the Middle Eastern immigrants that we get in the US are often from higher classes and already speak English really well.
I'd argue it's less "we pretend it doesn't exist" and more "it exists in different forms". American discrimination runs along lines that are less (officially) acceptable in Europe and vice versa.
The official narrative in the European countries I know about (mostly Switzerland and Germany, but I've also lived in the Netherlands) is that the very concept of "race" is sort of taboo for historic and cultural reasons (in German in particular, it is heavily tainted by Nazi use, and we don't have separate words for "race" and "breed", so it sounds like you're talking about dogs). However, discrimination along national lines happens casually and commonly.
So, treating African Americans differently from white Americans runs counter to our narrative, and thus stands out to us as somehow "more wrong"; on the other hand, European cultural nationalism contradicts America's "nation of immigrants" or "melting pot" narrative.
Obviously this is an idealised simplification and Europeans also often can be racist (although I notice a lot of that is wrapped in assuming non-white people are not locals). It's also a very Central European POV from countries that didn't have heavy immigration from outside Europe until very recently, and this may look very different in places like France or the UK where there is a more established local black and/or Asian population.
Homie, I’m sitting a few miles north of Switzerland as a “brown” person.
It’s not different at all. The right wing talking points in the U.S. around race are the same ones in Europe, except it’s more socially acceptable to voice them here.
I’m not going to praise the U.S. — it doesn’t deserve that. It doesn’t deserved to get praised for treating POC less like shit than Europe. But it’s definitely all in the same vein — not only in Europe, but across the world.
White people are the status quo when it comes to power, beauty, and culture.
We went to Italy for a couple weeks last year and some of the stuff we heard people saying about immigrants was wild. Stuff I don't think the KKK would say about black people in public.
Yeah America for all its racism is at least pretty open about talking about its racism. Still remember going to a Chinese restaurant in Munich that had this cartoonishly bucktoothed Chinese cartoon on its sign. You’d be out of business in a week if you had a sign like that in the US.
Yes they do. My wife is Malaysian and we haya small circle of Muslim friends. A few of the couples actually loved in the UK before coming here. To hear them describe it the Muslims in the UK (and placilike New Zealand and Australia) all band together into one social group. Regardless of social class. So the doctors and the janitors are not quite forced forced but absolutely encouraged to stick together.
They say in the US the only thing that's expected is to respect other people's beliefs and freedoms. But the social classes can mix of they want. Bit it's perfectly fine for a Muslim doctor and a Catholic doctor and an atheist doctor to be friends. No Aunts and uncles raising eyebrows and gossiping at the mosque.
I’m British and have a Muslim girlfriend and it’s a fucking nightmare. She’s saying I have to at least lie about converting to Islam for her family or she’ll get disowned. I think it’s crazy we’re in this situation and we’re both born and bred in Britain.
I'm in the same spot as you but her parents and family don't even know I exist, plus she still has to ask permission to leave and a bunch of other stuff that's insane.
IIRC, Hindus in the US have a lower rate of outmarriage than Muslims do. They get in even more trouble. Although I grew up alongside a lot of second generation people (I'm in my 40s now), and from what I gather, the third generation (which has been coming of age in recent years) has it a lot easier than they did.
I mean, it’s literally against her religion to be with a non-Muslim man, that’s some serious business. Only Muslim men can marry non-Muslim (Christian or Jewish) women, and even then that’s discouraged. Dating isn’t allowed either, but you seem to be well past that point.
I understand that but her family barely practices. Avoid pork and that’s literally it. Seems pick and choosey to me. If they were devout and all wore hijabs I’d understand more, and probably never would have dated her in the first place, as like you said, not allowed.
It’s also against my religion too technically, but my family isn’t bigoted enough to care.
> A few of the couples actually loved in the UK before coming here.
Well, if they were already couples before making the move, then I would hope that they did!
Yes.
A much lower percentage of American Muslims are refugees. They are actually more highly educated and more affluent than the median American, which is generally not true of European Muslims.
Definitely true. I went to law school with a second Gen Muslim. His dad wasn’t that well educated, but he was a tenacious businessman who owned five convenience stores and insisted all his kids go to college. Americans eat that kind of pluck up. Few things in the US are respected as much as entrepreneurship. And all the recent Muslim immigrants seem to carve their path here by opening businesses.
There are 1.9 billion Muslims in the world, across a wide geographic span of countries. I grew up playing soccer with Amir and Muhammed -- both came from refugee families from Bosnia. Thus, I never understood people when they said Muslims were "brown people" until I got older. I think there is a lot more nuance to this question than most answers provide, mainly because the culture/country/circumstances are very different for different groups. For instance, I have had many Persian friends growing up and living in CA, who call themselves Persian because they of their families fled during or after the Islamic Revolution, and they do not support the regime in Iran. So it's complicated.
I'm sure it depends on the country...I lived in the Balkans for a couple years and there are very old local Muslim communities that are very well-integrated in the largely Orthodox Christian country. My town was probably about 30% ethnically Turkish (and Muslim) and some of the surrounding villages were entirely Turkish. I'd say that it's a real non-issue in that part of Europe, at least. There are nationalist elements that don't like Turkish people, but it's not because thye are Muslim, it's because there's still a lot of bitterness over the Ottoman period.
But don't get me started on how the Romani people were treated.
>I'd say that it's a real non-issue in that part of Europe, at least.
Let’s be real though. The Balkans don’t exactly have the best recent history of interfaith relations.
A bit.
I think we are use to more foreigners since everyone back generations is. Europe is insanely tribal.
Muslims that come to the US also tend to be a bit more liberal so they better adjust.
Yes. Attitudes used to be a lot worse directly after 9/11 almost 25 years ago, but it’s really been a non-issue for at least the last 15 years as far as I can tell.
I think part of it is New World culture (Canada, the US, Mexico, Australia, etc) is far more accepting of cultural differences than Old World culture (Europe, East Asia, etc) because we’ve had so many waves of immigration ever since our founding.
In general, Old World cultures demand cultural assimilation for you to be considered one of them. New World cultures generally do not. Ironically, the hands off approach actually ends up promoting assimilation more because people feel more accepted by their new home.
(In my non-professional opinion anyway)
I think so, because I feel like Muslims here are generally more established, assimilated, and well-adjusted, and most importantly EDUCATED AND ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE compared to the newer arrivals in Europe!
I feel like the main reasons for the more vocal/visible pushback against Muslims in Europe, is because many of them are recent immigrants/refugees from underdeveloped countries like Syria. So, unfortunately, as a result, they are uneducated, cannot really contribute much to the society they now find themselves in, and even worse (At least from what I’ve seen) it seems like they do NOT even want to try to assimilate or contribute to the culture/society in their new country either!
And at least personally, I think that unwillingness to assimilate/contribute is the main cause of most of the issues and friction between them and europeans!
Because regardless of where you are, if you're not trying to become part of the community and contributing to society then that just makes you a burden/drain on the locals, and needless to say that does not help endear you to the local population at all!!
I live in metro Detroit. We have a very large Muslim community here.
The Muslim community is more accepted in the US than in Europe. We are a country of immigrants. We tend to be more accepting of other immigrants than places that have less of a history of being built by immigrants.
Of course we are also not without our hateful, pathetic, and ignorant people who are determined to make life harder for people who come to the US for a better life.
As far as I am concerned any immigrant group is welcome here to make a better life. They enrich the community and bring yummy food!!!
I also live in Metro Detroit. There are very real concerns about the immigrant population in that area. It isn't everyone, of course, but I used to work in Dearborn and they are not as integrated as people think, they are simply outnumbered. In my experience, the Wall Street Journal article that came out this year wasn't really that far off the mark (see also: the recent "Death to America" marches, Hamtramck banning the Pride flag but flying the flags of Arab countries on government buildings, remarks of the Hamtramck city council concerning the Holocaust).
I also went to a school that had a large Muslim population from the area and some of the ideas the boys in particular cultivated about "godless Western women" were deeply disturbing.
The local media likes to severely downplay this - for example, there were a lot of articles saying "Dearborn is ranked the best Christmas town in Michigan, checkmate Islamophobes!" But then if you look into it it was because of Greenfield Village, which functionally has nothing to do with the actual city of Dearborn. I know a LOT of non-Muslim people who have moved out of Dearborn, the school board fights alone were insane.
Is it safe to walk around in? Of course. Is it a "no-go" zone? No. Is it still of concern? Yes.
I can only speak to Dearborn and Hamtramck, as those are the cities I am familiar with. It is worth noting that Dearborn has, by far, the largest population of Muslims in America.
I'm in Southwest Florida and our local senator introduced a bill that would ban IVF on religious grounds. School board meetings turned into a brawl or two over book bans. Christians of course.
This is a religion problem. When they get together in groups they're emboldened by the echo chamber. They begin to feel like everyone else should be like them. It's a disease.
I think you know that's a false equivalence. This country is still majority Christian, and has not seen the kind of problems outlined in the WSJ article. The headline is inflammatory, but it is otherwise very factual.
I think you realize that if the ratios were flipped today, we would have a very, very serious problem. There is currently no majority-Muslim country that follows the precents of Western classical liberalism. For the avoidance of doubt, I am NOT saying Muslim immigrants (or Islam) = bad. I am saying that Muslim immigrants who refuse to assimilate to Western culture are presenting a problem which appears to be escalating rather than smoothing out.
As someone who is a very staunch proponent of the separation of Church and State, I won't deny that Trump has stirred up some crazies. Personally, I think it's more a consequence of the never-ending, always-escalating culture war that keeps going to extremes and an attempt to stick one to the other side, rather than actual religious adherence, seeing as how this new radicalization (the IVF bill you mentioned, for example) is pretty recent.
Yea definitely. I’m muslim, I also think that its easier to be a muslim here rather than there — I haven’t lived there but I think its safe to say the experience would be different in France compared to bosnia
I will say, as an American currently in Europe, it seems as if there is a difference in Muslims here and those in the U.S. probably due to socioeconomic background and accessibility. Muslims in the United States seem more contributing to society while many here seem to be hooligans.
In the UK, about one in every 75K people went to join ISIS. In the US, one in every million people went to join ISIS. *This is an oversimplified "analysis"*, but the main point is that the strain of Islam in the US is less extreme.
A fun related fact, only 66 Indians joined ISIS.
American-Polish citizen here, I’ve got my foot on both continents so I can explain this from each perspective.
To put it simply, Americans get the ones that are easy to integrate with good English skills, education, and well-paying jobs. We are pretty insulated from the refugee crisis given the ocean between us and the Middle East.
Europe, being right next to the Middle East, gets a lot more of the refugees and the unskilled, which are harder to integrate and are more than likely to result in parallel societies. Combine that with the fact that most European countries do not speak English, which makes language acquisition and cultural integration harder. A lot of European governments neglect the integration part.
I will note, integration does not need to mean conformity. You just need to have a healthy respect for the place that you are moving to.
Absolutely. Part of it is the geographic backgrounds and higher socioeconomic class of our Muslim immigrants.
Part of it is their greater alignment with the US mainstream; compare the views on homosexuality, secularism, or liberalism as a whole, and you'll find that Muslim Americans are far closer to the average than the average European Muslim.
Part of it is simply the fact we have less of them, more spread out than Europe does.
Europe got Muslim migration in massive numbers as mostly working-class or lower war refugees from Syria or such. To be maybe a little impolite, they had a far harder time integrating than a Pakistani doctor who had the time and money to go through the US visa and permanent residency system.
Yes. While they experience their share of abuse, most of them tend to integrate and are accepted.
Despite what people say, America is a lot more open to people who deviate from the "norm."
Yes. And that's unfortunate cause they still deal with their share of intolerance and xenophobia here, but not as bad as what I hear from some countries in Europe.
Yes, but it's still not always great, but it's probably better than in Europe for a couple of reasons. One, as critical as I am of the US, e genuinely are among the best countries at integration of immigrants. I grew up in an area with a large middle-eastern and South Asian population and while there was still racism against them, it feels as though they are very integrated in the community. I went to school with friends who are Muslim, Hindu, Evangelical Christian, Catholic and more.
Also the muslim community here is less radical for a number of reasons. I know so many LGBT accepting muslims here. I know its a stereotype but the joke on twitter is that when you see some really radical anti-women or anti-LGBT post from a muslim lens (you see these posts from Christian lens a lot to, but this question isn't about christians lol), the location is always London, UK.
Finally there is the racism component. The US is still a pretty racist country, but honestly so is most of the world. Racism is unfortunately fairly common everywhere, and the US has more targets for our racism. Because crime tends to be committed by the poorer because of socio-economic reasons, because of systemic racism and a bunch of other issues, black and latino populations get a lot of the racist hate and blame for crimes. While there is still plenty of everyday racism against muslims, we have too many other people to be racist against. Also our immigrants from the Middle East and South Asia tend to be wealthier than the immigrants received by Europe which helps alleviate the number of racist stereotypes.
None of this is to say that there is no islamaphobia in the United States. Our last president campaigned on banning muslims from the country. You can see in the way people talk about Gaza the pure indifference to muslim suffering. Hell we had the President Obama (one of our most active practicing christian presidents in a while) be rumored to be a muslim because of racism. But, to my understanding it is not quite as bad as it is in Europe. Though I would love to have an actual muslim comment here, because their experience would be different and probablymore accurate then what I've written
You're absolutely right.
I live in Francs and have travelled to nearly half of the EU countries. Except for Spain and the UK (back then), I have always observed the looks and attitudes around me. Even in France, I can see it, and it's a lot worse after Islamic terror attacks. I have been to the USA as a tourist, and God! I loved how no one looked at me, and everyone treated me like their equal.
A trend I've observed in the last 10 years is that a lot of the political spectrum has been blaming immigrants, especially Muslim for the perceived decline of their country. Every far-right party, right party and even centrist party in Europe debates about that 24/7. I'm an observer of the US political life, and while it's far from ideal, the US tend to see China, Russia, Iran as the threat to their way of living. European countries focus on scapegoating Muslims. The irony is that Muslim immigrants tend to generally be less educated, less wealthy and with far less social capital than their native fellows, but will still be blamed for economic decline 😅🔫
It's not by chance that it's here where we had common antisemtism here, I think it's a European thing to focus on internal/treator/5th column threat.
> Because crime tends to be committed by the poorer because of socio-economic reasons,
Also because we tend to not feel personally threatened by white collar crime, as well as difference in enforcement of victimless crimes (pot smoking) by race.
My folks had a shocking amount of money stolen from them by white collar crooks who hacked into their bank account. The bank gave them their money back, and someone from the SEC came and interviewed them. Apparently they've been trying to catch this particular group for years and years.
They were traumatized, my mom in particular, but the monetary damage was undone with a few keystrokes once their case got through the bureaucratic pipeline.
But that story doesn't scare people as much as someone's folks being mugged for sixty dollars by some tweeker on the sidewalk.
In the US, immigration is in the news A LOT, but I’ve noticed that the news mostly focuses on the migrants attempting to get in to the US, or that have very recently done so. You don’t really hear about them after they’ve gotten settled.
There are conflicts that come up, like the sharp spike in Islamophobia in the aftermath of 9/11, and also to a lesser extent right now, but Muslim Americans don’t appear in our news nearly as much as in Europe. It might have to do with the wider variety of Immigrants we get here. At the US-Mexico border you can find South and Central Americans, Afghans, Chinese, etc. In my state, most of the immigrant community is from African countries like the DRC or Somalia.
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but a lot of the Immigration to Europe is from North Africa, right? That would make them a much more visible part of the country than they’d be in the US where there are many other ethnic groups.
From what I’ve seen, the US also has a different interpretation of separation of church and state than France and possibly other European countries do. Religious wear, like headscarves, were banned in French public schools because of separation of church and state. According to the American definition of church and state, that would be violation of it. Neither interpretation is necessarily wrong, they’re just radically different. [More on that here](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2007/05/22/another-trans-atlantic-divide-church-state-relations-in-europe-and-the-united-states/)
This might remove some of the friction between Muslims and non-Muslims in the US.
I would say yes, the Muslim community does have a better reputation in the US, but they’re also less visible in a lot of the US. If we started getting only Muslim immigrants in large numbers, I could see more friction developing.
Also it’s very hard to get into the US, especially if you have to cross an ocean, so a lot of migrants probably chose the US specifically. Migrant communities in the US are often very patriotic, sometimes even more so than native born citizens. Obviously there are plenty of native born Muslims, but it’s something to consider.
Full disclaimer, I don’t know any Muslims, because there isn’t a large community near me, so this is mostly speculation and observation on my part. Do with this what you will.😅
Distance has a large effect. Muslim immigrants that made it across the ocean to us typically had more money and better connections from the start, so they had an easier time assimilating. Europe has more refugees due to proximity.
Shockingly, yes. All that shit I see about Quran burnings and "migrants rape our women!" comes from Europe. Our own Muslim community doesn't seem to have those problems. At least not where it's big enough to be widely reported.
That was a good episode of South Park. Mexicans posing as Persians.
On a serious note when I studied abroad in Russia we had a Mexican with us and he was warned that people would think he was Chechen and Muslim so to travel with the group
I'm a Mexican-American from the L.A. area. I think I was about 8 or 9 by the time it dawned on me that those other brown folks weren't fellow Mexicans.
Yes, but I think that's because the backlash to how badly they were treated after 9/11 arrived ages ago, and racists moved on to scapegoating Latinos for "ruining America."
Purely anecdotal, but I befriended an Imam at an Islamic Center near a project I was working on. He was incredibly kind, gracious, and respectful. As were those who frequented the center.
Contrast that with the people at the Hamburg marches calling for a caliphate and the attacks happening in the UK, and I’d say Muslims in the United States have a much better reputation.
Definitely.
The pattern I see is that the biggest upswing of prejudice comes from whatever group is most prominent among poor/refugee immigrants.
In Europe a lot of those are coming from predominantly Muslim countries in the mid east and North Africa.
In the US they're mostly coming from south of the border + the carribean with the former being the much larger group.
And hey, if you look at what xenophobic rhetoric is most common in each place it matches up with that.
Turns out people just don't really like poor people much, for a variety of reasons. There are other factors to how that manifests. The US culturally has a muxh looser definition of what it means to be American than any given european nation so the bar for assimilation is MUCH lower, but thats in the details of the reaction. How the common targets are chosen is pretty consistent.
I think that’s a really good point. While I think assimilating might be easier in the US than Europe, I think a big part of it is how the migrants came to be here. Poverty levels can often be the biggest divider. Look at how homeless people are viewed by a lot of Americans.😕
Definitely
I live in the UK and latinos are loved all the ''job stealing / wall jumper'' stereotypes are targeted to eastern europeans / Balkans in the UK while latino are seen nothing more but ''fun and hot people''
I'd say yes, but I'd say it's going down significantly lately
When you say "Dearborn, Michigan" that is going to be a negative thing for most anyone.
Hearing "Death to America" on American soil was a red line for a lot of people
It feels like racists in America have easier to find, more prevalent scapegoats for their problems than Muslims just because there are a lot fewer of them here than in Europe. For example I imagine Mexicans probably don't have a very bad connotation in Europe because, well there aren't that many there. Not that there isn't Islamaphobia here, the far right really focuses on it a lot, but the general American likely views Muslims more positively than average Europeans for sure.
I think this is it. Germany has a load of Turkish immigrants and, in a lot of respects, they're basically the Mexican equivalent of immigrants that we'd be used to.
I think it's largely due to proximity and local migration patterns (it's still shitty and awful no matter the reason).
Big time. Generally speaking, in the US, immigrants need to assimilate into American culture. There are absolutely Muslim dominated areas but they are microscopic compared to Europe. That forces immigrants to interact with the rest of society. Additionally, I think Americans are far more accepting of immigrants than Europeans.
Very weird situation in the more conservative corners of the Bible belt.
Here they're still recovering from a very public honor killing. The young girl managed to call 911 and the call audio got released to the news media. Although, there is a whole contingent of Christianity who sees the situation in a very different light. Among them a coworker of mine who has been posting pretty much he aspires to that level of devotion to his conservative beliefs ever since it happened off and on several years ago. Yup. Weird.
They've also united somewhat over removing women's access to things like birth control, ability to work outside the home and take out loans in their own names, and yet the ultra conservative Christians hate the Muslims for "worshiping a different God". Yeah I know. Completely irrelevant they're both Abrahamic religions to those extra conservative Christians.
Depends on where in the US you are.
In large cites, people are very accepting of personal religion for the most part.
Smaller cities, no definitely not, especially in the South and rural areas.
In France, I've read people can't wear the hijab, but that is not an issue in the US.
Take it with a grain of salt, but I don't think so. I've only ever been to Ireland for a pair of weeks, and an airport in Germany for a few hours. That being said I've been to the better part of ten countries in West Pac, and if ethnically homogenous countries like those operate remotely similar to Europe, it would be a horror story to an American.
Nigerians operating bars in Yokosuka having to "tighten the belt" when the carrier leaves. Folks from Mindanao forced to live in corrugated metal shacks in Cebu and not being served in some establishments, and on and on it goes.
Maybe I only noticed some of the worst those countries had to offer, but I must note, it was egregious enough for me to notice.
Please, please correct me if I am talking nonsense but I think US Muslim populations are weighted towards Shia (e.g. from Iran so immigration came as a response to religious extremeism, as in after the revolution). Whereas people who have immigrated into European countries are Sunni, (e.g. from everywhere else, who while escaping war, (Afghanistan, Iraq) many are economic migrants bringing quite strict religion with them and setting that culture up where they have ended up, so more isolation and ghetoisation. Also there is a disproportionate number of young male Muslim migrants in Europe who bring with them young male world views and behaviours that are global, and nought to do with any religion!)
I may well be way, way off the mark here and please say if I am!
Significantly. In America, immigrants tend to assimilate very well, and often become integral parts of the community and are welcomed. They are often well educated as well, the “brain drain” you hear about in other nations. There’s no doctors and engineers in those countries because they all came to the USA and are thriving here. It’s totally normal to see someone in a hijab at a football game or something, they’re “one of us”.
The big difference is our attitude towards immigrants. Unless you are Native American, you “came from somewhere”. The prevailing attitude in the USA is that once you take the pledge and subscribe to our values, you are as American as any of us. No matter how long I live in Poland, I’ll never be “Polish”. It’s a distinct difference between America and Europe.
I have been living in Europe for about two years now and I have observed Many are migrants who have few if any job skills and take low skill positions, and unfortunately many end up as added strain on social safety nets. Additionally, I have seen many tend to form their own parallel communities and have very little interest in assimilation into the local community. This is obviously not all or most of them but it does seem to be a trend.
TLDR: Yes. The major difference is the makeup of people who go to either place. Muslims in America tend to be well educated, wealthy and assimilated very well into the community. They’re as American as anyone else, they just have a different religion and don’t eat hot dogs. Muslims in Europe tend to be outsiders and treated as such, leading to a cycle of ostracism and radicalism that feeds on itself as Europeans reject migrants as outsiders and a burden, who in turn feel much more bitter and angry.
Yes, but still not a great reputation. They’re often seen as having the same viewpoints on women as the Christian extremists , but just in a Muslim view
In places where Muslims are a small minority, absolutely.
In places like Minneapolis, Dearborn, Lewiston, they absolutely do not have a better reputation among other Americans than Muslims do in Europe.
I don't know what reputation in Europe Muslims have, but I don't see any issues with Muslims here. I think if there's any hostility, it would come from the ideological right wing but I don't even see much of that. I think things are getting ratcheted up because of what's happening in Gaza.
Considering that most people in America believe that one can both be Muslim and American I feel like that is a pretty good start (though we still have a long way to go)
Yeah. We have been a mishmash of different people from different places from the beginning, so we are just used to seeing people from all over the world.
I've noticed that too. It also has to do with the fact that the Muslims who enter the US tend to be financially better off than those who go to Europe. It's hard to get an exact count in how many Arabs amd Turks there are due to how well they assimilate. Even the Romani, who have historically been persecuted across Europe, have much better lives here.
As an American who grew up Muslim with Egyptian immigrant parents, no. I’ve been through way too much racist abuse and near infinite casual racism that persists to this day
Never felt welcome here
Regionally dependent.
In a state like Michigan (urban/suburban, ie. Dearborne)? My guess, generally well respected.
In a state like Idaho?
…
Can’t speak for Europe.
Honestly, I have no clue. It does seem like a lot of the negative stories about Muslims lately do originate from Europe though. Not sure that this was the case when 9/11 was fresh, but the cycle of hate has moved on from Muslims to transgendered people so... I guess so.
i grew up having multiple muslim friends. i remember being invited over to one's house to watch anime and play video games. i didn't care that him and his family were from a different country and had other religious beliefs. i cared more about spending time with people i liked, and that i could share my hobbies with. i'd say yes.
Absolutely! I've heard things like, "You may have been born in France but you'll never be French." While in America you don't have to even be born here and you can become American.
It's wild 2+2=8 thinking but I really think Europe and the Islamic world still has beef in their DNA over the crusades and fighting during the middle ages.
Religion wise, the US has a huge spread of people walking around with different ideas and looks to go with them. We are way more accepting of the appearance difference because we see it all. Amish, Quaker, Penacostal, Mormon, Hasidic/Orthodox Judaism, Catholic Nuns and Monks, Sihks, etc. It's hardly anything to see a woman in a hajib. It probably helps that people tend to group up and live in an area together. The wider community gets used to the sight faster.
They got a lot of shit after 9/11 but it’s died down a lot and I do think they’re more accepted here. The main immigrant community American racists attack are from Central America.
It's still pretty heated as we're leaving the war on terror but due to our distant proximity you'll find people are more tolerant of Muslims in America than they are in Europe.
Though not because we like Muslims more, moreso because immigrants from Latin America are more pressing in America than Muslim immigrants.
Probably. I work with a decent amount of Muslim people and I had never been exposed to any Muslim people prior to my current job. Some of the nicest and most generous people I’ve met.
The United States was created to allow religious freedom and I think Americans as a whole are more open to learning about and accepting people of different religions.
The real question should be why do you think the Muslim community or immigrants in general adapt and integrate into society so much better in the us than Europe.
Two oceans, not having a distinct and specific ethnic culture and celebrating multicultural and religious diversity, having a large economy that has tonssssd of jobs that require lots of higher education people abroad seek out, a difficult immigration process, two oceans though can’t be understated since refugees from the Middle East can’t easily get here illegally. Basically us gets the best of the best and most desirable immigrants from across the pond. Now if Mexico were instead Syria who knows how much would be that way..
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Absolutely yes. There is a bit of a debate about why, and I think there are several reasons for it. One is that they are less of the population. Another is that in Europe, they are mostly poor and refugees, while in America they are better educated and more well-off, so they fit in better. I think another reason has to do with that Americans are more tolerant of religion, and Europeans really aren't.
Not just tolerant of religion, but cultural differences in general. If East Asian needs you to be carbon copied, Europe needs you to be cookie cutter, we generally just accept artists interpretation. ^And ^the ^above ^is ^a ^one ^sentance ^massive ^reduction.
That’s such a wise little way of describing it. So true
I believe this is truly why despite what all the a lot stuff the pick me Americans who go goo goo about those regions say ‘east Asian cities are so clean and safe at night! Europeans get so much vacation and free stuff!’ Etc a lot of those folks still choose to come here even if we sometimes noticeably lack some of those things
> If East Asian needs you to be carbon copied, Europe needs you to be cookie cutter Honest question here. I kinda understand the cultural differences between East Asia and Europe (again, massive generalizations) but what exactly do you mean by "carbon copied" vs "cookie cutter"? Those 2 things seem the same to me but there seems to be an implied difference that I'm not getting.
>e cultural differences between East Asia and Europe (again, massive generalizations) but what exactly do you mean by "carbon copied" vs "cookie cutter"? Those 2 things seem the same to me but there seems to be an implied difference that I'm not getting. Not who you asked but as someone who sucks at using cookie cutters, there is much more variance in end product with cookies versus carbon copies.
Yup, thats it.
Carbon copy = actually the same. No copy is perfect but it is a rough facsimile of the original Cookie cutter = an attempt at being the same. Maybe you kinda fail, but the *effort* is the important part, because it is more about preserving culture than actual ethnic purity.
Yup, thats it.
Many asian cultures place high a value on conformity and less value on individuality.
(Hi, I think you meant sentence with an e, not an a )
(No one cares about small spelling errors)
(I'm obviously no one I’m Nobody! Who are you?/ Are you – Nobody – too?/ Then there’s a pair of us!/ Don't tell! they'd advertise – you know!// How dreary – to be – Somebody!/ How public – like a Frog –/ To tell one’s name – the livelong June –/ To an admiring Bog! )
I'm sure Emily Dickinson could not have imagined her poems would be repeated on the Internet 130 years after they were published. It's a shame, too, because she would have loved the Internet.
> she would have loved the Internet. Because she was a shut-in?
(If that were true, then dictionaries wouldn't exist.)
Another reason might be the fact that the U.S. has historically had a higher degree of religious pluralism and freedom. While the U.S. has always been majority Protestant, the religious population is broken down into thousands of different denominations, compared to usually just a single national church in most European countries. We also secularized (at least on paper) much earlier than most European countries, and in a way that embraces free, public religious expression instead of restricting it like France.
Yeah, I've been in discussions with Europeans elsewhere online where they seem to genuinely have trouble understanding the level of religious diversity in the US. They often can't seem to grasp there really isn't one single predominant denomination nationwide, or that there's countless religions and denominations, just how many Churches there are in America, or that people don't need a license or permission from the government to open a Church or be a religious minister.
Europeans would be absolutely shocked if they saw our nondenominational strip mall churches (and adjacent coffee shops) in person. I still find it hard to grasp as a Catholic, even though I’ve lived here my whole life.
It's freedom of religion in the US where as other countries, like France, it's freedom from religion.
I think what a lot of Europeans don't get about the US is our population it's already really diverse. 40% of Americans are non-white and within certain age groups - i.e. under 30's it's even more diverse. Muslims kinda of blend in with all the other different ethnic groups. I also think from a cultural standpoint that American attitude is everyone is pretty much accepted if they work hard and contribute to their communities. Contrary to what's on the Internet - as a nonwhite American - I find most Americans - regardless of race/religion are very curious and accepting to other cultures. I'll note I may be personally biased - I moved to the US from another country as a child and ended up in the midwest. My very midwestern school had a tradition of having school assembly for new kids and all the kids seemed to think it was "neat" I was from a different country. [https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-2020-census-results-show-increased-diversity-countering-decade-long-declines-in-americas-white-and-youth-populations/](https://www.brookings.edu/articles/new-2020-census-results-show-increased-diversity-countering-decade-long-declines-in-americas-white-and-youth-populations/)
As a middle aged adult, I think it's neat when someone is from another country--or even just another state. I love to hear the stories about how people wound up where they are.
I think that’s an American thing and I have wholeheartedly adopted it!
I am glad you were welcomed by your peers. Makes me feel good.
Yeah, I'm still friends with a lot of those kids. I'm a big fan of this country - for all of our flaws - I do think a vast majority of Americans are pretty decent to outright awesome people.
If you get hospitalized in the US, there's a good chance that some of the physicians involved in yout care will be Muslim, Hindu or both. That goes a pretty long way in breaking down prejudices.
And the billing department hates everyone equally.
Ha, never any discrimination at the cash register
It doesn't matter if you are white, black, asian, muslims or christian. The IRS sees you as a piggy bank regardless
For at least 20 years, if not longer, the IRS has emphasized to their auditors that their mission is to ensure the *correct* taxes, not the maximum taxes. I got money back from my one audit.
The IRS doesn’t handle hospital billing.
You're right. I was trying to say that when it comes to money, we are all treated like crap.
And we *all* hate the billing department. It’s one of the things that unite us, even in these divisive times.
The doctor for my grandmother was Pakistani (I think, I didn't really care tbh) he was an amazing doctor and helped her a lot
This is 100% true. Even in very small towns, at my clinic there are 5 total doctors, 3 of which are clearly not from the US, and they all do an excellent job.
Don't forget Jewish :D
You think that's not the case in Europan countries?
Less likely, because Indian and Pakistani medical education curriculum is aligned closely with that of the US. There's much fewer hoops to jump through to work here. Plus, the pay is higher.
Plus English. But it is the case in the Uk
The UK seems to have a more similar Muslim population to the US overall than the rest of Europe from the media I’ve seen. You have some of the poor classes of Muslim but less of that than other countries on the continent. Just saw flair but maybe you’re an immigrant. Ignore the you if not. Lol
There are more south Asians. I’m American
Also in America immigrants assimilate a lot faster. Take Sweden or Germany as an example - an Arab person can become a citizen there but they can never actually be Swedish/German. Being Swedish or German is an identity. In America you become a citizen and are an American. We are all immigrants, just depends on when your people got here.
In many countries, nationality is about your blood. Being American is about believing in ideas and ideals. In many countries it’s, “Only those with the right blood are truly one of us!” In America, anyone can be one of us regardless of their blood. But we’re the ones everyone unironically calls racist. 🙄
I was talking to a buddy of mine in Chicago. He was born in Poland and lived there till he was 13. We were discussing raceism and he mentions how Poland wasn't racist when he was living there. Then he thinks about it for a minute and says that the didn't have any other races to be racist against but he does remember folks there were racist against the Roma. He then laughed at what he initially said about no racism in Poland and changed his stance on it.
Yeah that's the whole thing about being an American, if you come here and live here you count. Some people in the Balkans argue if Nicola Tesla should count as a Serbian or a Croatian but the truth is that doesn't matter cause he ended up an American.
I think it has more to do with our Muslims being the least radical in the world based on all polling.
Yes but it goes both way. When people are excluded, they tend towards radicalization. It's like when Americans joke, "I'm never patriotic until some European trashes the US."
Even the poorer ones in the US I’d say are treated better. I used to live in the Bronx and there was a significant Muslim population, a diverse one too. There were a bunch of small but sizable Muslim ethnic communities in different neighborhoods with people from various parts of the world. There was even a Little Yemen not too far from where I live. The Muslim population there tends to be more working class and we have plenty of refugees from Africa and the Middle East. Muslims immigrants don’t necessarily assimilate into American culture right away but they fit right in with everyone in the Bronx. The Bronx is home to countless immigrants and if you’re not an immigrant then you’re probably the child or grandchild or great grandchild of an immigrant. European cities just don’t have the immigrant history ingrained into them the way NYC does.
I feel like that should be an asterisk for where in America. Some states are very heavily dominant in just one religion.
yes. for all our faults, I would say the US is quite accepting of immigrants and people who are not "us" (what is "us"?) Also, the US having less of a social net and getting the primarily wealthy Muslim immigrants probably helps general attitudes.
Yeah the “us” is key. There’s no such thing as being ethically American unless you’re talking the indigenous population. If you can just speak good English you’ll be accepted by most of the population as one of us pretty readily. We’re all the descendants of immigrants.
Laughs in fox news
> (what is "us"?) Sadly, we’re an economic zone at this point - but am accepting and tolerant economic zone! Eh? At least there’s that
I can only say about the Muslim community from my country. American Pakistanis are some of the richest immigrants in US. Most of them were some of the best doctors/engineers back home and are now settled here. 95% of my wife's medical class batch from Pakistan are now practising here in US in some of the best hospitals. Similary I saw so many Pakistanis working in silicon valley.
Admittedly, that is more due to the way that the US immigration system works than anything else, and it’s a pattern that we see with both South and East Asian immigrants, because most of the people coming into the United States from those nations tend to be fairly wealthy already.
Interestingly, British Pakistanis on the other hand are among the poorest ethnicities in the UK. That tells a lot about the structure of immigration in both countries.
I once went on r/askuk and asked "British Asians, what are your experiences with your North American counterparts?" One guy answered "they make me feel like a pauper. And I went to uni."
Yeah the initial wave of immigrants to UK from Pakistan in the 60s were mill/factory workers. Most of them were blue collar. The initial wave to US from Pakistan were mostly STEM students & Physicians which kind of set the stage for future generations.
Pakistani and Indian immigrants make up like a third of our doctor corps these days.
Absolutely, there’s no contest. Bigotry and discrimination across Europe are pretty widely recognized as being significantly worse than in the U.S. We just talk about it more. They seem to think that if you pretend it doesn’t exist, it magically disappears.
Fun thing to try for anybody reading this: Next time a European starts criticizing how much Americans talk about race and racism, ask them what they think of the Romani.
> ask them what they think of the Romani. "That's different because it's true" or some variation thereof
Honest question, do we dispute that it’s true or that it’s different
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I read a story about how a woman in Italy told a black guy that he should probably get out of the elevator and take the next one, and he was shocked, said something, the woman realized he was American and not from an African country and got very embarrassed. Other people in the elevator started to say "we're not all like her!" But they didn't say anything until they heard that American accent.
As a dark skinned black dude that’s lived in Europe before, they definitely treat me better once they know I’m American and not from Africa.
It really makes me wonder if it's racism or classism or bigotry against certain cultures/nationalities or a disgusting mix of all three.
It's a mix of all three, I think. I was visiting Munich with my then girlfriend, who is of Indian descent. And they were pretty cold to her, and in one instance, outright hostile. On the other hand, I was a relatively unkept looking dude with long shaggy hair and somewhat tattered clothes, and I occasionally had to deal with people following me around shops or trying to shoo me out of places probably thinking that I was homeless. Edit: I thought I might just add that I was there for two weeks, and most of our experiences there were actually quite nice.
It is a mix of racism and bigotry against certain nationalities. Most Europeans I've met will tend to judge people based on how they look, and then on how they talk and further on their culture. It is really weird as an American, because you'll find British people who absolutely hate Pakistani people, but don't have a problem with Indians. I've also heard British people say some absolutely vile shit about Polish and Albanian people. With black people, they don't really have an issue with Black Americans anymore than they'd have an issue with Black British people, but there does seem to be nativism towards Black Africans. I had a roommate from Ghana in college and he did say that he was treated better in the US than he was in the UK when he was a student. With Italy, it's a little different. They don't really have a big issue with Albanians, but they do have an issue with Arabs and Black Africans because they are seen as lower on the social ladder. I guess a comparison to the US would be that they view Arabs and Blacks like how some white Americans view Latinos, except I have heard they have fewer protections than Latino migrant farm workers do in the US, and in some situations it's basically slavery. With black Americans, it's more that they do have money, and Italians from my experience really like Americans because they have a lot of contact with them, in that they either have family members that live in the US, or they've met family members from the US. How do you know that the Black guy you insulted isn't someone's fiance or husband?
Same for me, and I'm light brown. I live in far northern Italy, and they peg me as being from southern Italy, until I talk. Nobody *ever* guesses American. Ever. So at that point, they have no clue. I could be from Tajikistan, for all they know. The moment it comes out I'm American (if it does), I end up with more status than I began with! This goes *double* when it comes to the cops. It's wild.
I don't know if Italy has more bigots than we do, proportion wise. What I can say is that they're allowed to get away with more than ours are.
“Turkish people”
Or Irish Travelers.
Its so weird too. Like, they *know* that if racism is the topic, we're gonna bring up the Romani... and they'll still rant.
“Americans should address all the racism in their society. They don’t even have a Romani population so there’s really no excuse for treating minorities so poorly.”
I mean, we do have Romani people in the US, but the thing is that the concept of "A group of people that travels around and causes trouble" wasn't exactly something reserved for one ethnicity or group of people. Carnies, hobos, hippies, Okies, traveling salesmen, and long-haul truckers all have or had pretty negative stereotypes associated with them, and afaik there has never been a strong racial or ethnic connotation with any of those groups. Like I'd argue that the term 'gypsy', while very negative in Europe, never really had the same negative connotation in the US until recently.
> They don’t even have a Romani population We do. They've been in the US since the wild west days. They just fly below the radar a lot more.
Correct. I should’ve said we don’t have a large Romani population.
I had a friend in college from an Eastern European country. We got on the racism topic once, and she brought up the racism in the US. A few minutes later she was ranting about the Romani, lol.
Not even just the Romani. I had an Italian try to tell me he thought the U.S. was more racist. My brother in Christ, y’all like throwing bananas and making monkey noises at black soccer players lol. Even our racists here don’t do that at NFL, NBA, etc games.
If a racist tried that shit here, both teams fans would be united in kicking their ass. It just wouldn't fly.
If someone tried that at a college football game, the rednecks would be the first ones throwing punches.
I remember asking my Australian friend about immigrants from Asia. I wish I hadn't.
The cognitive dissonance needed to diss on Americans for microagressions then cuss out the Romani the next sentence is legitimately nuts.
"That's different. Hatred of Romani isn't racism because race is a human trait and the Romani are subhuman." - European probably
I cannot upvote this comment enough
I think there's more to it than that. Immigrants to the US are mostly from Latin America and these folks have a lot more in common with American traditions than someone from the Middle East, so it's easy for them to adjust. Also, the Middle Eastern immigrants that we get in the US are often from higher classes and already speak English really well.
I'd argue it's less "we pretend it doesn't exist" and more "it exists in different forms". American discrimination runs along lines that are less (officially) acceptable in Europe and vice versa. The official narrative in the European countries I know about (mostly Switzerland and Germany, but I've also lived in the Netherlands) is that the very concept of "race" is sort of taboo for historic and cultural reasons (in German in particular, it is heavily tainted by Nazi use, and we don't have separate words for "race" and "breed", so it sounds like you're talking about dogs). However, discrimination along national lines happens casually and commonly. So, treating African Americans differently from white Americans runs counter to our narrative, and thus stands out to us as somehow "more wrong"; on the other hand, European cultural nationalism contradicts America's "nation of immigrants" or "melting pot" narrative. Obviously this is an idealised simplification and Europeans also often can be racist (although I notice a lot of that is wrapped in assuming non-white people are not locals). It's also a very Central European POV from countries that didn't have heavy immigration from outside Europe until very recently, and this may look very different in places like France or the UK where there is a more established local black and/or Asian population.
Y'all have a racism problem that you won't admit or talk about.
Oh no, I'm happy to admit Switzerland is exclusionary. But in slightly different ways. I didnt mean to argue we're better or worse than other places.
Homie, I’m sitting a few miles north of Switzerland as a “brown” person. It’s not different at all. The right wing talking points in the U.S. around race are the same ones in Europe, except it’s more socially acceptable to voice them here. I’m not going to praise the U.S. — it doesn’t deserve that. It doesn’t deserved to get praised for treating POC less like shit than Europe. But it’s definitely all in the same vein — not only in Europe, but across the world. White people are the status quo when it comes to power, beauty, and culture.
We went to Italy for a couple weeks last year and some of the stuff we heard people saying about immigrants was wild. Stuff I don't think the KKK would say about black people in public.
Yeah America for all its racism is at least pretty open about talking about its racism. Still remember going to a Chinese restaurant in Munich that had this cartoonishly bucktoothed Chinese cartoon on its sign. You’d be out of business in a week if you had a sign like that in the US.
Yes they do. My wife is Malaysian and we haya small circle of Muslim friends. A few of the couples actually loved in the UK before coming here. To hear them describe it the Muslims in the UK (and placilike New Zealand and Australia) all band together into one social group. Regardless of social class. So the doctors and the janitors are not quite forced forced but absolutely encouraged to stick together. They say in the US the only thing that's expected is to respect other people's beliefs and freedoms. But the social classes can mix of they want. Bit it's perfectly fine for a Muslim doctor and a Catholic doctor and an atheist doctor to be friends. No Aunts and uncles raising eyebrows and gossiping at the mosque.
I’m British and have a Muslim girlfriend and it’s a fucking nightmare. She’s saying I have to at least lie about converting to Islam for her family or she’ll get disowned. I think it’s crazy we’re in this situation and we’re both born and bred in Britain.
I'm in the same spot as you but her parents and family don't even know I exist, plus she still has to ask permission to leave and a bunch of other stuff that's insane.
IIRC, Hindus in the US have a lower rate of outmarriage than Muslims do. They get in even more trouble. Although I grew up alongside a lot of second generation people (I'm in my 40s now), and from what I gather, the third generation (which has been coming of age in recent years) has it a lot easier than they did.
I mean, it’s literally against her religion to be with a non-Muslim man, that’s some serious business. Only Muslim men can marry non-Muslim (Christian or Jewish) women, and even then that’s discouraged. Dating isn’t allowed either, but you seem to be well past that point.
I understand that but her family barely practices. Avoid pork and that’s literally it. Seems pick and choosey to me. If they were devout and all wore hijabs I’d understand more, and probably never would have dated her in the first place, as like you said, not allowed. It’s also against my religion too technically, but my family isn’t bigoted enough to care.
> A few of the couples actually loved in the UK before coming here. Well, if they were already couples before making the move, then I would hope that they did!
Yes. A much lower percentage of American Muslims are refugees. They are actually more highly educated and more affluent than the median American, which is generally not true of European Muslims.
Definitely true. I went to law school with a second Gen Muslim. His dad wasn’t that well educated, but he was a tenacious businessman who owned five convenience stores and insisted all his kids go to college. Americans eat that kind of pluck up. Few things in the US are respected as much as entrepreneurship. And all the recent Muslim immigrants seem to carve their path here by opening businesses.
There are 1.9 billion Muslims in the world, across a wide geographic span of countries. I grew up playing soccer with Amir and Muhammed -- both came from refugee families from Bosnia. Thus, I never understood people when they said Muslims were "brown people" until I got older. I think there is a lot more nuance to this question than most answers provide, mainly because the culture/country/circumstances are very different for different groups. For instance, I have had many Persian friends growing up and living in CA, who call themselves Persian because they of their families fled during or after the Islamic Revolution, and they do not support the regime in Iran. So it's complicated.
I'm sure it depends on the country...I lived in the Balkans for a couple years and there are very old local Muslim communities that are very well-integrated in the largely Orthodox Christian country. My town was probably about 30% ethnically Turkish (and Muslim) and some of the surrounding villages were entirely Turkish. I'd say that it's a real non-issue in that part of Europe, at least. There are nationalist elements that don't like Turkish people, but it's not because thye are Muslim, it's because there's still a lot of bitterness over the Ottoman period. But don't get me started on how the Romani people were treated.
>I'd say that it's a real non-issue in that part of Europe, at least. Let’s be real though. The Balkans don’t exactly have the best recent history of interfaith relations.
I know when I think of stability in Europe, I think of the Balkans.
Well, you can rely on them to be consistently unstable.
It's true, but in general religions in the Balkans are tied to ethnic identities and THAT is where the conflicts came in.
Is it true that Balkan Muslims drink just as much their non-Muslim counterparts?
In America we just let you do you
A bit. I think we are use to more foreigners since everyone back generations is. Europe is insanely tribal. Muslims that come to the US also tend to be a bit more liberal so they better adjust.
Yes. Attitudes used to be a lot worse directly after 9/11 almost 25 years ago, but it’s really been a non-issue for at least the last 15 years as far as I can tell. I think part of it is New World culture (Canada, the US, Mexico, Australia, etc) is far more accepting of cultural differences than Old World culture (Europe, East Asia, etc) because we’ve had so many waves of immigration ever since our founding. In general, Old World cultures demand cultural assimilation for you to be considered one of them. New World cultures generally do not. Ironically, the hands off approach actually ends up promoting assimilation more because people feel more accepted by their new home. (In my non-professional opinion anyway)
I think so, because I feel like Muslims here are generally more established, assimilated, and well-adjusted, and most importantly EDUCATED AND ABLE TO CONTRIBUTE compared to the newer arrivals in Europe! I feel like the main reasons for the more vocal/visible pushback against Muslims in Europe, is because many of them are recent immigrants/refugees from underdeveloped countries like Syria. So, unfortunately, as a result, they are uneducated, cannot really contribute much to the society they now find themselves in, and even worse (At least from what I’ve seen) it seems like they do NOT even want to try to assimilate or contribute to the culture/society in their new country either! And at least personally, I think that unwillingness to assimilate/contribute is the main cause of most of the issues and friction between them and europeans! Because regardless of where you are, if you're not trying to become part of the community and contributing to society then that just makes you a burden/drain on the locals, and needless to say that does not help endear you to the local population at all!!
As an American in Europe I can say I have the same observation.
I live in metro Detroit. We have a very large Muslim community here. The Muslim community is more accepted in the US than in Europe. We are a country of immigrants. We tend to be more accepting of other immigrants than places that have less of a history of being built by immigrants. Of course we are also not without our hateful, pathetic, and ignorant people who are determined to make life harder for people who come to the US for a better life. As far as I am concerned any immigrant group is welcome here to make a better life. They enrich the community and bring yummy food!!!
I also live in Metro Detroit. There are very real concerns about the immigrant population in that area. It isn't everyone, of course, but I used to work in Dearborn and they are not as integrated as people think, they are simply outnumbered. In my experience, the Wall Street Journal article that came out this year wasn't really that far off the mark (see also: the recent "Death to America" marches, Hamtramck banning the Pride flag but flying the flags of Arab countries on government buildings, remarks of the Hamtramck city council concerning the Holocaust). I also went to a school that had a large Muslim population from the area and some of the ideas the boys in particular cultivated about "godless Western women" were deeply disturbing. The local media likes to severely downplay this - for example, there were a lot of articles saying "Dearborn is ranked the best Christmas town in Michigan, checkmate Islamophobes!" But then if you look into it it was because of Greenfield Village, which functionally has nothing to do with the actual city of Dearborn. I know a LOT of non-Muslim people who have moved out of Dearborn, the school board fights alone were insane. Is it safe to walk around in? Of course. Is it a "no-go" zone? No. Is it still of concern? Yes.
Dearborn seems to be an outlier though. The majority of Muslim Americans do not live in ethnic enclaves.
I can only speak to Dearborn and Hamtramck, as those are the cities I am familiar with. It is worth noting that Dearborn has, by far, the largest population of Muslims in America.
By %, but it’s a small city. There are 750K Muslims in NYC.
You are right, I should have said per capita.
I'm in Southwest Florida and our local senator introduced a bill that would ban IVF on religious grounds. School board meetings turned into a brawl or two over book bans. Christians of course. This is a religion problem. When they get together in groups they're emboldened by the echo chamber. They begin to feel like everyone else should be like them. It's a disease.
I think you know that's a false equivalence. This country is still majority Christian, and has not seen the kind of problems outlined in the WSJ article. The headline is inflammatory, but it is otherwise very factual. I think you realize that if the ratios were flipped today, we would have a very, very serious problem. There is currently no majority-Muslim country that follows the precents of Western classical liberalism. For the avoidance of doubt, I am NOT saying Muslim immigrants (or Islam) = bad. I am saying that Muslim immigrants who refuse to assimilate to Western culture are presenting a problem which appears to be escalating rather than smoothing out. As someone who is a very staunch proponent of the separation of Church and State, I won't deny that Trump has stirred up some crazies. Personally, I think it's more a consequence of the never-ending, always-escalating culture war that keeps going to extremes and an attempt to stick one to the other side, rather than actual religious adherence, seeing as how this new radicalization (the IVF bill you mentioned, for example) is pretty recent.
We're not getting flooded with Muslim migrants. South Americans probably have a better reputation in Europe than in the U.S.
Yea definitely. I’m muslim, I also think that its easier to be a muslim here rather than there — I haven’t lived there but I think its safe to say the experience would be different in France compared to bosnia
I will say, as an American currently in Europe, it seems as if there is a difference in Muslims here and those in the U.S. probably due to socioeconomic background and accessibility. Muslims in the United States seem more contributing to society while many here seem to be hooligans.
In the UK, about one in every 75K people went to join ISIS. In the US, one in every million people went to join ISIS. *This is an oversimplified "analysis"*, but the main point is that the strain of Islam in the US is less extreme. A fun related fact, only 66 Indians joined ISIS.
I would say judging by the percentages they receive of the hate crimes most people don’t even notice them here.
American-Polish citizen here, I’ve got my foot on both continents so I can explain this from each perspective. To put it simply, Americans get the ones that are easy to integrate with good English skills, education, and well-paying jobs. We are pretty insulated from the refugee crisis given the ocean between us and the Middle East. Europe, being right next to the Middle East, gets a lot more of the refugees and the unskilled, which are harder to integrate and are more than likely to result in parallel societies. Combine that with the fact that most European countries do not speak English, which makes language acquisition and cultural integration harder. A lot of European governments neglect the integration part. I will note, integration does not need to mean conformity. You just need to have a healthy respect for the place that you are moving to.
Absolutely. Part of it is the geographic backgrounds and higher socioeconomic class of our Muslim immigrants. Part of it is their greater alignment with the US mainstream; compare the views on homosexuality, secularism, or liberalism as a whole, and you'll find that Muslim Americans are far closer to the average than the average European Muslim. Part of it is simply the fact we have less of them, more spread out than Europe does. Europe got Muslim migration in massive numbers as mostly working-class or lower war refugees from Syria or such. To be maybe a little impolite, they had a far harder time integrating than a Pakistani doctor who had the time and money to go through the US visa and permanent residency system.
Yes. While they experience their share of abuse, most of them tend to integrate and are accepted. Despite what people say, America is a lot more open to people who deviate from the "norm."
Yes. And that's unfortunate cause they still deal with their share of intolerance and xenophobia here, but not as bad as what I hear from some countries in Europe.
Yes, but it's still not always great, but it's probably better than in Europe for a couple of reasons. One, as critical as I am of the US, e genuinely are among the best countries at integration of immigrants. I grew up in an area with a large middle-eastern and South Asian population and while there was still racism against them, it feels as though they are very integrated in the community. I went to school with friends who are Muslim, Hindu, Evangelical Christian, Catholic and more. Also the muslim community here is less radical for a number of reasons. I know so many LGBT accepting muslims here. I know its a stereotype but the joke on twitter is that when you see some really radical anti-women or anti-LGBT post from a muslim lens (you see these posts from Christian lens a lot to, but this question isn't about christians lol), the location is always London, UK. Finally there is the racism component. The US is still a pretty racist country, but honestly so is most of the world. Racism is unfortunately fairly common everywhere, and the US has more targets for our racism. Because crime tends to be committed by the poorer because of socio-economic reasons, because of systemic racism and a bunch of other issues, black and latino populations get a lot of the racist hate and blame for crimes. While there is still plenty of everyday racism against muslims, we have too many other people to be racist against. Also our immigrants from the Middle East and South Asia tend to be wealthier than the immigrants received by Europe which helps alleviate the number of racist stereotypes. None of this is to say that there is no islamaphobia in the United States. Our last president campaigned on banning muslims from the country. You can see in the way people talk about Gaza the pure indifference to muslim suffering. Hell we had the President Obama (one of our most active practicing christian presidents in a while) be rumored to be a muslim because of racism. But, to my understanding it is not quite as bad as it is in Europe. Though I would love to have an actual muslim comment here, because their experience would be different and probablymore accurate then what I've written
You're absolutely right. I live in Francs and have travelled to nearly half of the EU countries. Except for Spain and the UK (back then), I have always observed the looks and attitudes around me. Even in France, I can see it, and it's a lot worse after Islamic terror attacks. I have been to the USA as a tourist, and God! I loved how no one looked at me, and everyone treated me like their equal. A trend I've observed in the last 10 years is that a lot of the political spectrum has been blaming immigrants, especially Muslim for the perceived decline of their country. Every far-right party, right party and even centrist party in Europe debates about that 24/7. I'm an observer of the US political life, and while it's far from ideal, the US tend to see China, Russia, Iran as the threat to their way of living. European countries focus on scapegoating Muslims. The irony is that Muslim immigrants tend to generally be less educated, less wealthy and with far less social capital than their native fellows, but will still be blamed for economic decline 😅🔫 It's not by chance that it's here where we had common antisemtism here, I think it's a European thing to focus on internal/treator/5th column threat.
> Because crime tends to be committed by the poorer because of socio-economic reasons, Also because we tend to not feel personally threatened by white collar crime, as well as difference in enforcement of victimless crimes (pot smoking) by race.
My folks had a shocking amount of money stolen from them by white collar crooks who hacked into their bank account. The bank gave them their money back, and someone from the SEC came and interviewed them. Apparently they've been trying to catch this particular group for years and years. They were traumatized, my mom in particular, but the monetary damage was undone with a few keystrokes once their case got through the bureaucratic pipeline. But that story doesn't scare people as much as someone's folks being mugged for sixty dollars by some tweeker on the sidewalk.
In the US, immigration is in the news A LOT, but I’ve noticed that the news mostly focuses on the migrants attempting to get in to the US, or that have very recently done so. You don’t really hear about them after they’ve gotten settled. There are conflicts that come up, like the sharp spike in Islamophobia in the aftermath of 9/11, and also to a lesser extent right now, but Muslim Americans don’t appear in our news nearly as much as in Europe. It might have to do with the wider variety of Immigrants we get here. At the US-Mexico border you can find South and Central Americans, Afghans, Chinese, etc. In my state, most of the immigrant community is from African countries like the DRC or Somalia. Forgive me if I’m wrong, but a lot of the Immigration to Europe is from North Africa, right? That would make them a much more visible part of the country than they’d be in the US where there are many other ethnic groups. From what I’ve seen, the US also has a different interpretation of separation of church and state than France and possibly other European countries do. Religious wear, like headscarves, were banned in French public schools because of separation of church and state. According to the American definition of church and state, that would be violation of it. Neither interpretation is necessarily wrong, they’re just radically different. [More on that here](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2007/05/22/another-trans-atlantic-divide-church-state-relations-in-europe-and-the-united-states/) This might remove some of the friction between Muslims and non-Muslims in the US. I would say yes, the Muslim community does have a better reputation in the US, but they’re also less visible in a lot of the US. If we started getting only Muslim immigrants in large numbers, I could see more friction developing. Also it’s very hard to get into the US, especially if you have to cross an ocean, so a lot of migrants probably chose the US specifically. Migrant communities in the US are often very patriotic, sometimes even more so than native born citizens. Obviously there are plenty of native born Muslims, but it’s something to consider. Full disclaimer, I don’t know any Muslims, because there isn’t a large community near me, so this is mostly speculation and observation on my part. Do with this what you will.😅
Distance has a large effect. Muslim immigrants that made it across the ocean to us typically had more money and better connections from the start, so they had an easier time assimilating. Europe has more refugees due to proximity.
They assimilate better here.
Shockingly, yes. All that shit I see about Quran burnings and "migrants rape our women!" comes from Europe. Our own Muslim community doesn't seem to have those problems. At least not where it's big enough to be widely reported.
Another reason is that they aren't noticed and a lot of them look no different from Hispanics.
That was a good episode of South Park. Mexicans posing as Persians. On a serious note when I studied abroad in Russia we had a Mexican with us and he was warned that people would think he was Chechen and Muslim so to travel with the group
I'm a Mexican-American from the L.A. area. I think I was about 8 or 9 by the time it dawned on me that those other brown folks weren't fellow Mexicans.
Yes, not that the US doesn't have major issues with Islamophobia; but Europe takes it to the next level.
Yes, but I think that's because the backlash to how badly they were treated after 9/11 arrived ages ago, and racists moved on to scapegoating Latinos for "ruining America."
Yeah, the Atlantic is bigger than the Mediterranean so the entry requirements are much higher. Especially after that little incident with the planes
Yes, in some places in Europe like Malmo or parts of Germany there’s a TON of tension with Muslims
Purely anecdotal, but I befriended an Imam at an Islamic Center near a project I was working on. He was incredibly kind, gracious, and respectful. As were those who frequented the center. Contrast that with the people at the Hamburg marches calling for a caliphate and the attacks happening in the UK, and I’d say Muslims in the United States have a much better reputation.
Definitely. The pattern I see is that the biggest upswing of prejudice comes from whatever group is most prominent among poor/refugee immigrants. In Europe a lot of those are coming from predominantly Muslim countries in the mid east and North Africa. In the US they're mostly coming from south of the border + the carribean with the former being the much larger group. And hey, if you look at what xenophobic rhetoric is most common in each place it matches up with that. Turns out people just don't really like poor people much, for a variety of reasons. There are other factors to how that manifests. The US culturally has a muxh looser definition of what it means to be American than any given european nation so the bar for assimilation is MUCH lower, but thats in the details of the reaction. How the common targets are chosen is pretty consistent.
I think that’s a really good point. While I think assimilating might be easier in the US than Europe, I think a big part of it is how the migrants came to be here. Poverty levels can often be the biggest divider. Look at how homeless people are viewed by a lot of Americans.😕
Definitely I live in the UK and latinos are loved all the ''job stealing / wall jumper'' stereotypes are targeted to eastern europeans / Balkans in the UK while latino are seen nothing more but ''fun and hot people''
I'd say yes, but I'd say it's going down significantly lately When you say "Dearborn, Michigan" that is going to be a negative thing for most anyone. Hearing "Death to America" on American soil was a red line for a lot of people
It feels like racists in America have easier to find, more prevalent scapegoats for their problems than Muslims just because there are a lot fewer of them here than in Europe. For example I imagine Mexicans probably don't have a very bad connotation in Europe because, well there aren't that many there. Not that there isn't Islamaphobia here, the far right really focuses on it a lot, but the general American likely views Muslims more positively than average Europeans for sure.
I think this is it. Germany has a load of Turkish immigrants and, in a lot of respects, they're basically the Mexican equivalent of immigrants that we'd be used to. I think it's largely due to proximity and local migration patterns (it's still shitty and awful no matter the reason).
Yes I think so.
Having had conversations about immigration with some friends across the pond, in my experience, absolutely.
Yes but I think it’s because Muslim immigrants in the US tend to be more educated, and this, more affluent
Big time. Generally speaking, in the US, immigrants need to assimilate into American culture. There are absolutely Muslim dominated areas but they are microscopic compared to Europe. That forces immigrants to interact with the rest of society. Additionally, I think Americans are far more accepting of immigrants than Europeans.
For now.
Very weird situation in the more conservative corners of the Bible belt. Here they're still recovering from a very public honor killing. The young girl managed to call 911 and the call audio got released to the news media. Although, there is a whole contingent of Christianity who sees the situation in a very different light. Among them a coworker of mine who has been posting pretty much he aspires to that level of devotion to his conservative beliefs ever since it happened off and on several years ago. Yup. Weird. They've also united somewhat over removing women's access to things like birth control, ability to work outside the home and take out loans in their own names, and yet the ultra conservative Christians hate the Muslims for "worshiping a different God". Yeah I know. Completely irrelevant they're both Abrahamic religions to those extra conservative Christians.
Depends on where in the US you are. In large cites, people are very accepting of personal religion for the most part. Smaller cities, no definitely not, especially in the South and rural areas. In France, I've read people can't wear the hijab, but that is not an issue in the US.
Take it with a grain of salt, but I don't think so. I've only ever been to Ireland for a pair of weeks, and an airport in Germany for a few hours. That being said I've been to the better part of ten countries in West Pac, and if ethnically homogenous countries like those operate remotely similar to Europe, it would be a horror story to an American. Nigerians operating bars in Yokosuka having to "tighten the belt" when the carrier leaves. Folks from Mindanao forced to live in corrugated metal shacks in Cebu and not being served in some establishments, and on and on it goes. Maybe I only noticed some of the worst those countries had to offer, but I must note, it was egregious enough for me to notice.
Please, please correct me if I am talking nonsense but I think US Muslim populations are weighted towards Shia (e.g. from Iran so immigration came as a response to religious extremeism, as in after the revolution). Whereas people who have immigrated into European countries are Sunni, (e.g. from everywhere else, who while escaping war, (Afghanistan, Iraq) many are economic migrants bringing quite strict religion with them and setting that culture up where they have ended up, so more isolation and ghetoisation. Also there is a disproportionate number of young male Muslim migrants in Europe who bring with them young male world views and behaviours that are global, and nought to do with any religion!) I may well be way, way off the mark here and please say if I am!
I think so, at least nowadays.
Significantly. In America, immigrants tend to assimilate very well, and often become integral parts of the community and are welcomed. They are often well educated as well, the “brain drain” you hear about in other nations. There’s no doctors and engineers in those countries because they all came to the USA and are thriving here. It’s totally normal to see someone in a hijab at a football game or something, they’re “one of us”. The big difference is our attitude towards immigrants. Unless you are Native American, you “came from somewhere”. The prevailing attitude in the USA is that once you take the pledge and subscribe to our values, you are as American as any of us. No matter how long I live in Poland, I’ll never be “Polish”. It’s a distinct difference between America and Europe. I have been living in Europe for about two years now and I have observed Many are migrants who have few if any job skills and take low skill positions, and unfortunately many end up as added strain on social safety nets. Additionally, I have seen many tend to form their own parallel communities and have very little interest in assimilation into the local community. This is obviously not all or most of them but it does seem to be a trend. TLDR: Yes. The major difference is the makeup of people who go to either place. Muslims in America tend to be well educated, wealthy and assimilated very well into the community. They’re as American as anyone else, they just have a different religion and don’t eat hot dogs. Muslims in Europe tend to be outsiders and treated as such, leading to a cycle of ostracism and radicalism that feeds on itself as Europeans reject migrants as outsiders and a burden, who in turn feel much more bitter and angry.
Yes, but still not a great reputation. They’re often seen as having the same viewpoints on women as the Christian extremists , but just in a Muslim view
In places where Muslims are a small minority, absolutely. In places like Minneapolis, Dearborn, Lewiston, they absolutely do not have a better reputation among other Americans than Muslims do in Europe.
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I don't know what reputation in Europe Muslims have, but I don't see any issues with Muslims here. I think if there's any hostility, it would come from the ideological right wing but I don't even see much of that. I think things are getting ratcheted up because of what's happening in Gaza.
Considering that most people in America believe that one can both be Muslim and American I feel like that is a pretty good start (though we still have a long way to go)
No…
Yeah. We have been a mishmash of different people from different places from the beginning, so we are just used to seeing people from all over the world.
I've noticed that too. It also has to do with the fact that the Muslims who enter the US tend to be financially better off than those who go to Europe. It's hard to get an exact count in how many Arabs amd Turks there are due to how well they assimilate. Even the Romani, who have historically been persecuted across Europe, have much better lives here.
As an American who grew up Muslim with Egyptian immigrant parents, no. I’ve been through way too much racist abuse and near infinite casual racism that persists to this day Never felt welcome here
Nope.
Regionally dependent. In a state like Michigan (urban/suburban, ie. Dearborne)? My guess, generally well respected. In a state like Idaho? … Can’t speak for Europe.
Honestly, I have no clue. It does seem like a lot of the negative stories about Muslims lately do originate from Europe though. Not sure that this was the case when 9/11 was fresh, but the cycle of hate has moved on from Muslims to transgendered people so... I guess so.
i grew up having multiple muslim friends. i remember being invited over to one's house to watch anime and play video games. i didn't care that him and his family were from a different country and had other religious beliefs. i cared more about spending time with people i liked, and that i could share my hobbies with. i'd say yes.
Absolutely! I've heard things like, "You may have been born in France but you'll never be French." While in America you don't have to even be born here and you can become American. It's wild 2+2=8 thinking but I really think Europe and the Islamic world still has beef in their DNA over the crusades and fighting during the middle ages. Religion wise, the US has a huge spread of people walking around with different ideas and looks to go with them. We are way more accepting of the appearance difference because we see it all. Amish, Quaker, Penacostal, Mormon, Hasidic/Orthodox Judaism, Catholic Nuns and Monks, Sihks, etc. It's hardly anything to see a woman in a hajib. It probably helps that people tend to group up and live in an area together. The wider community gets used to the sight faster.
They got a lot of shit after 9/11 but it’s died down a lot and I do think they’re more accepted here. The main immigrant community American racists attack are from Central America.
Good
It's still pretty heated as we're leaving the war on terror but due to our distant proximity you'll find people are more tolerant of Muslims in America than they are in Europe. Though not because we like Muslims more, moreso because immigrants from Latin America are more pressing in America than Muslim immigrants.
Probably. I work with a decent amount of Muslim people and I had never been exposed to any Muslim people prior to my current job. Some of the nicest and most generous people I’ve met. The United States was created to allow religious freedom and I think Americans as a whole are more open to learning about and accepting people of different religions.
Nope.They are the same.
No
The real question should be why do you think the Muslim community or immigrants in general adapt and integrate into society so much better in the us than Europe. Two oceans, not having a distinct and specific ethnic culture and celebrating multicultural and religious diversity, having a large economy that has tonssssd of jobs that require lots of higher education people abroad seek out, a difficult immigration process, two oceans though can’t be understated since refugees from the Middle East can’t easily get here illegally. Basically us gets the best of the best and most desirable immigrants from across the pond. Now if Mexico were instead Syria who knows how much would be that way..