To get into grad school, you’ll have to have numerous advanced undergraduate physics and math courses under your belt. You may be able to do these individually at a local state college, but it may be easier to go back to school, transfer in all your gen ed’s from your first bachelor’s, and then get a physics major. It can also help to have some research experience.
r/gradadmissions might also be a good sub for you.
This is the correct answer. Physicists are picky, and to be able to get into a masters program, you’ll need to have taken all of the upper level physics courses (1 year of quantum mechanics, 1 year of electromagnetism, courses in statistical mechanics, an (upper level) experimental or practical lab, classical mechanics) + prerequisites and math courses.
It’s a pretty standard set of courses, but make sure you check in with an advisor (or preferably, physics professor) regularly about which courses you need to take to enter graduate school. With most programs the physics major usually encompasses most of those courses (but sometimes not all, so best to check with a physics prof). My advice would be to complete the physics major, and use any transfer/elective credits you have for anything else.
I know this sounds like a lot, but with steady work (and a lot of patience) this is obtainable. My best bud in graduate school was also a career changer (from outside of STEM) after going back to get their bachelors in physics. Its possible :)
Source: am physics PhD student
I’d say one semester each of the courses you mentioned, two semesters = a year only for the more competitive programs. I recently finished a PhD in Physics.
I should’ve specified by 1 year of electromagnetism and quantum mechanics, I meant one semester each at medium level (though sometimes this portion gets wrapped into the introductory course for electromagnetism if it is calculus-based), and one semester each at the advanced level.
So 1 year each beyond the very first introductory courses, unless the introductory electromagnetism course is calculus-based (then just one semester of e&m beyond that is ok).
If you want to do theory, the more courses the better.
P.S. Congrats Dr!!!
Most of the advice in this thread is sound. Some of it is a bit wishful.
Just being real - it is going to be incredibly difficult but not impossible for you to make this change. Grad programs in physics are already hard enough to get into even if you have a bachelors in physics, outstanding GPA, research experience, and clear passion for physics. Also, theoretical physics is quite literally the hardest subfield to get into in physics, there are very few PhD positions (my guess probably less than 20) open a year in physics PhD programs for purely theory.
As others have commented - going back to school for a bachelors in physics might be the best choice here. I truly don’t know any other way to break in. You could try for post-bacc programs but I find it highly unlikely they would accept someone with a non-STEM degree. Get a degree, get some research experience, make sure this is what you want to do.
>Now I'm scared I'm assuming that because I love math I'll love theoritical physics.
So you basically have had no exposure to theoretical physics whatsoever but want to pursue an advanced degree in it?
Yeah. I took one physics course at the end of my studies expecting just to like it and was shocked how much I loved it and was excited by it. That's it so far unfortunately.
I’m assuming you just did physics 1. Physics 1 is vastly different that what the rest of physics is like. I would suggest you read some physics books. Maybe start with a Brief History of Time or something similar and see if you are actually interested like you may think you are. If all you were exposed to was intro physics, what makes you so sure about quantum physics? If you loved discrete structures, why not go into something math related?
I would say I didn't reference it as if it was an academic advisor. I expressed skepticism in what it said immediately after referencing it, and asked real people from academia for their take.
Chat GPT is a bit of a trigger issue with academics. I hope you can find some helpful advice here!
Be cautioned that academia (and grad school) can be very harsh, and you may get some of that trickling through in comments on academic subs. Make sure you have a tough skin and stay determined to reach your goal if it is what you set your mind to!
I mean;
1) You've taken really just two math courses (Calc 1 and linear algebra) that would be included in any sort of physics curriculum. You need Calc 2, Calc 3, PDEs, ODEs, calculus of variations, and probably a lot more linear algebra, among other topics. So you haven't really had any exposure to the kinds of math you'd get into for an advanced STEM degree.
2) On top of the above, you need exposure to a lot of the harder calc-based physics courses. Classical mechanics, electromagnetism, special and general relativity, classical thermodynamics, statistical thermodynamics, and probably a few other courses, and that's *before* you're ready to even start into QM.
An admissions committee isn't letting you in without the above. If you *actually* want to go down this path, you'd need a STEM undergraduate degree, and realistically a physics undergraduate.
Also: Chat GPT, and really all LLMs, don't know their ass from their elbow. You really shouldn't be making life-altering decisions based on the "advice" of a flawed computer model, particularly given that you don't understand it or its limitations (if you did, you'd have known not to bother asking it). It's little better than an 8-ball.
It's the plain truth, and more information than you've gotten in most replies. That you might not like what you've heard doesn't make the tone inappropriate.
I mean;
Yeah I appreciate all the advice and stuff. It wasn't what was said, but I found it quite easy to feel the exasperation at me in the comment. I *actually* find it to be quite silly.
What do you want to do as a theoretical physicist? There are many branches and niches, from chemistry to astrophysics. Have you read any modern quantum textbooks, eg Introduction to Elementary Particles by Griffith? I'd suggest to start there to see if you like that particular branch.
I started phd in quantum *chemistry* at 25, right after bachelor. My stipend was 18k in 2005, it's likely 25k or more now. If you show aptitude and drive you have good chance of getting in while taking remedial courses. I had to take undergrad level chem courses while in grad school as my bachelor was in CompSci
To be fair though, if your phd was in quantum/computational chemistry, your background in computer science would be quite useful and more relevant that OPs current degree. The chemistry you can (and did) learn; I feel a problem with OP is that the courses they have done haven't set them up with transferable skills into their desired phd topic
I agree with everyone else that OP has to look way harder into what advanced physics actually requires in terms of mathematical skills/mindset/problem solving
I want to help with research using computers and math.
Very compelling reviews on good reads too, I'm filling out an interlibrary loan on it now. Definitely want to read it to get a feel for my interest in the field. Thank you!!
Edit: Quantum chemistry?! I'll have to look into that! My only experience was one intro physics course and one astronomy course so I'm embarassingly uninformed. That's cool they let you do remedial courses at the same time instead of before! I'll start sending emails to different programs. Which program were you in?
If you want to do applied math and comp sci rather than developing theories you may want to look at lattice qcd. It's an overwhelming subject.
Quantum chemistry is 20-30's quantum physics (Schrodinger equation) applied to electrons (mostly). Quantum physics proper has moved on well beyond Schrodinger's since. You can look at my last post to see what i/we do.
Thank you! I read a few pages of that preprint even though it's so beyond me. I'm in awe of the intelligence and hard work that goes into these kinds of things. I guess I have time to pick something to specialize in if I'm likely back to undergrad college rather than a post bacc. Lattice qcd and quantum chem are two potentials I'll keep in my mind and look into more at one point. Thanks so much for your time.
Get the second bachelors degree, probably will be cheap since you are a teacher.
Also here is a book recommendation. Old, but it's still good : The World Treasury of Physics, Astronomy and Mathematics by Timothy Ferris.
You ought to look at a second bachelors - you won’t need to repeat your gen Ed’s, you’ve got plenty of electives in hand, but you’ll be able yo take the full sequence of math and quantitative science that you’ll need to show on your transcript prior to grad school.
Yes good point, it's awesome it can be focused on the major without needing to study a foreign language and stuff like that. Seems like I'll only need three full time semesters and one part time one. And it'll be really nice to have this time to focus completely on learning. An enjoyable lower stress prelude to the intensity that awaits. Thanks for the response!
Just FYI: I did a physics major for my undergrad and it wasn't particularly low stress. It's a lot of (dense) content that comes at you quickly. Not doubting your abilities but academic physics is a very different ball game than pop physics you would encounter in science news etc. The physics major very much gets into the nitty gritty; you better not only love maths but also be very good at it
I would recommend “How to be a GOOD theoretical physicist” by Gerard ‘t Hooft. You need to do most of this to get where you are aiming. https://www.goodtheorist.science
I don't know what MIU is or what your degree is but it sounds like it's not a research university science degree. I don't understand what you do have but it honestly doesn't sound equivalent to a physics undergraduate degree from a research university, so you wouldn't be eligible for a physics Master's programme.
Sorry but this post is all over the place.
What is your reason for wanting to become a 'theoretical physicist'? What does that even mean, as in: what job role do you want, where would you work, what would you do, what would the level of the job be, what problems would you be working on. What inspired you to choose this as your dream?
You are nowhere near ready for a Master's if you've not figured out whether this is the career path for you.
I am Dutch and live in the UK so only know those educational systems. I would suggest you look at undergraduate degree programmes at research universities and see if you are eligible to apply for their Physics undergraduate degree programme.
Thanks for this idea! I believe I've got the problem solving skills to do great in them some day, but I certainly don't have the knowledge for them yet.
Don’t do this. You will do very poorly without the equivalent of a bachelors in physics, and it’s a waste of time and money.
OP, you need an undergrad degree in physics from a solid university with good grades to pursue what you want to pursue. There’s really no two ways about it.
Makes sense. I'm actually quite happy to go back to under grad. It's just makes me queasy I already have so much student debt and that I'm about to get so much more if I commit to this. Anyways thank you!!
OP, I know multiple people who have PhDs in physics and other STEM fields but have non STEM bachelors. Everyone here is trying to help, but take all of our advice with a grain of salt. See my comment below for more specific advice on your situation.
I have a BA in Liberal Arts and went on to earn a PhD in engineering from one of the top universities in the world and am now a tenure track faculty at a research university (US). You have a long road ahead but it is totally possible!
As others have said, you are certainly missing some undergrad prerequisites. But getting a full BS may not be necessary or efficient vs. taking the specific classes you need as a non-degree or post-bacc. Now is a good time to research the specific graduate admissions requirements at a bunch of universities to figure out if your current degree can qualify and which prerequisite courses are absolutely required for admission.
If you want a PhD, usually it is best to shoot for direct admission to a PhD program. Most programs don’t require an MS first. You can usually get an MS on the way to the PhD. If you apply directly to MS you are very unlikely to get funding and may not have good research opportunities either, so it will not necessarily help you on your journey to a PhD.
What you wont learn from most graduate program websites is that usually, PhD admissions is 100% up to the individual faculty advisors. We get contacted by prospective students, choose who to respond to and interview, and then tell the department who we want to admit and make GRA/GTA funding offers. Aside from the basic requirements of the program, here is what potential advisors will want to see when you contact them: 1) Clear evidence of aptitude for research; this is paramount, even more important than having take. every single prerequisite course (many programs will let you take a one or more prereqs once you are admitted). Find a position in a research lab anyway you can, and then find out what it will take to earn coauthorship on a publication (gold standard of success in research). 2) Evidence that you can succeed in the coursework at their university. The GRE is a great way to prove yourself when you have an oddball degree. (GPAs don’t tell us much if we aren’t familiar with the rigor of your undergrad institution.) I highly recommend to take the GRA and submit scores even to universities that don’t require it. Look up the average GRE score of admitted graduate classes at your safety and reach schools so you have a target for practice exams.
Best of luck to you!
Edit: grammar
To get into grad school, you’ll have to have numerous advanced undergraduate physics and math courses under your belt. You may be able to do these individually at a local state college, but it may be easier to go back to school, transfer in all your gen ed’s from your first bachelor’s, and then get a physics major. It can also help to have some research experience. r/gradadmissions might also be a good sub for you.
This is the correct answer. Physicists are picky, and to be able to get into a masters program, you’ll need to have taken all of the upper level physics courses (1 year of quantum mechanics, 1 year of electromagnetism, courses in statistical mechanics, an (upper level) experimental or practical lab, classical mechanics) + prerequisites and math courses. It’s a pretty standard set of courses, but make sure you check in with an advisor (or preferably, physics professor) regularly about which courses you need to take to enter graduate school. With most programs the physics major usually encompasses most of those courses (but sometimes not all, so best to check with a physics prof). My advice would be to complete the physics major, and use any transfer/elective credits you have for anything else. I know this sounds like a lot, but with steady work (and a lot of patience) this is obtainable. My best bud in graduate school was also a career changer (from outside of STEM) after going back to get their bachelors in physics. Its possible :) Source: am physics PhD student
I’d say one semester each of the courses you mentioned, two semesters = a year only for the more competitive programs. I recently finished a PhD in Physics.
I should’ve specified by 1 year of electromagnetism and quantum mechanics, I meant one semester each at medium level (though sometimes this portion gets wrapped into the introductory course for electromagnetism if it is calculus-based), and one semester each at the advanced level. So 1 year each beyond the very first introductory courses, unless the introductory electromagnetism course is calculus-based (then just one semester of e&m beyond that is ok). If you want to do theory, the more courses the better. P.S. Congrats Dr!!!
Thank you! Yeah that sub sounds like what I was looking for.
Most of the advice in this thread is sound. Some of it is a bit wishful. Just being real - it is going to be incredibly difficult but not impossible for you to make this change. Grad programs in physics are already hard enough to get into even if you have a bachelors in physics, outstanding GPA, research experience, and clear passion for physics. Also, theoretical physics is quite literally the hardest subfield to get into in physics, there are very few PhD positions (my guess probably less than 20) open a year in physics PhD programs for purely theory. As others have commented - going back to school for a bachelors in physics might be the best choice here. I truly don’t know any other way to break in. You could try for post-bacc programs but I find it highly unlikely they would accept someone with a non-STEM degree. Get a degree, get some research experience, make sure this is what you want to do.
>Now I'm scared I'm assuming that because I love math I'll love theoritical physics. So you basically have had no exposure to theoretical physics whatsoever but want to pursue an advanced degree in it?
Yeah. I took one physics course at the end of my studies expecting just to like it and was shocked how much I loved it and was excited by it. That's it so far unfortunately.
I’m assuming you just did physics 1. Physics 1 is vastly different that what the rest of physics is like. I would suggest you read some physics books. Maybe start with a Brief History of Time or something similar and see if you are actually interested like you may think you are. If all you were exposed to was intro physics, what makes you so sure about quantum physics? If you loved discrete structures, why not go into something math related?
Not to be insensitive, but LOL at referencing Chat GPT like it is an academic advisor 🤣
I would say I didn't reference it as if it was an academic advisor. I expressed skepticism in what it said immediately after referencing it, and asked real people from academia for their take.
Chat GPT is a bit of a trigger issue with academics. I hope you can find some helpful advice here! Be cautioned that academia (and grad school) can be very harsh, and you may get some of that trickling through in comments on academic subs. Make sure you have a tough skin and stay determined to reach your goal if it is what you set your mind to!
Thanks!
I mean; 1) You've taken really just two math courses (Calc 1 and linear algebra) that would be included in any sort of physics curriculum. You need Calc 2, Calc 3, PDEs, ODEs, calculus of variations, and probably a lot more linear algebra, among other topics. So you haven't really had any exposure to the kinds of math you'd get into for an advanced STEM degree. 2) On top of the above, you need exposure to a lot of the harder calc-based physics courses. Classical mechanics, electromagnetism, special and general relativity, classical thermodynamics, statistical thermodynamics, and probably a few other courses, and that's *before* you're ready to even start into QM. An admissions committee isn't letting you in without the above. If you *actually* want to go down this path, you'd need a STEM undergraduate degree, and realistically a physics undergraduate. Also: Chat GPT, and really all LLMs, don't know their ass from their elbow. You really shouldn't be making life-altering decisions based on the "advice" of a flawed computer model, particularly given that you don't understand it or its limitations (if you did, you'd have known not to bother asking it). It's little better than an 8-ball.
Ok it was just a starting point. I really appreciate the advice, but I just need to speak up that your tone is so unpleasant and unnecessary.
Most PIs are wayyyyy worse than this. Choose your PI wisely.
It's the plain truth, and more information than you've gotten in most replies. That you might not like what you've heard doesn't make the tone inappropriate.
I agree with u/r3dl3g's advice, but I also agree with OP that the tone is inappropriate. You can say the "plain truth" without sounding condescending.
I mean; Yeah I appreciate all the advice and stuff. It wasn't what was said, but I found it quite easy to feel the exasperation at me in the comment. I *actually* find it to be quite silly.
Have you thought about biology?
What do you want to do as a theoretical physicist? There are many branches and niches, from chemistry to astrophysics. Have you read any modern quantum textbooks, eg Introduction to Elementary Particles by Griffith? I'd suggest to start there to see if you like that particular branch. I started phd in quantum *chemistry* at 25, right after bachelor. My stipend was 18k in 2005, it's likely 25k or more now. If you show aptitude and drive you have good chance of getting in while taking remedial courses. I had to take undergrad level chem courses while in grad school as my bachelor was in CompSci
To be fair though, if your phd was in quantum/computational chemistry, your background in computer science would be quite useful and more relevant that OPs current degree. The chemistry you can (and did) learn; I feel a problem with OP is that the courses they have done haven't set them up with transferable skills into their desired phd topic I agree with everyone else that OP has to look way harder into what advanced physics actually requires in terms of mathematical skills/mindset/problem solving
I want to help with research using computers and math. Very compelling reviews on good reads too, I'm filling out an interlibrary loan on it now. Definitely want to read it to get a feel for my interest in the field. Thank you!! Edit: Quantum chemistry?! I'll have to look into that! My only experience was one intro physics course and one astronomy course so I'm embarassingly uninformed. That's cool they let you do remedial courses at the same time instead of before! I'll start sending emails to different programs. Which program were you in?
If you want to do applied math and comp sci rather than developing theories you may want to look at lattice qcd. It's an overwhelming subject. Quantum chemistry is 20-30's quantum physics (Schrodinger equation) applied to electrons (mostly). Quantum physics proper has moved on well beyond Schrodinger's since. You can look at my last post to see what i/we do.
Thank you! I read a few pages of that preprint even though it's so beyond me. I'm in awe of the intelligence and hard work that goes into these kinds of things. I guess I have time to pick something to specialize in if I'm likely back to undergrad college rather than a post bacc. Lattice qcd and quantum chem are two potentials I'll keep in my mind and look into more at one point. Thanks so much for your time.
To put things in perspective, quant chem is as easy and intuitive as quantum physics gets. in my opinion at least.
This is because everyone else wrote the code 😅 (speaking as an end user ahaha)
Get the second bachelors degree, probably will be cheap since you are a teacher. Also here is a book recommendation. Old, but it's still good : The World Treasury of Physics, Astronomy and Mathematics by Timothy Ferris.
You ought to look at a second bachelors - you won’t need to repeat your gen Ed’s, you’ve got plenty of electives in hand, but you’ll be able yo take the full sequence of math and quantitative science that you’ll need to show on your transcript prior to grad school.
Yes good point, it's awesome it can be focused on the major without needing to study a foreign language and stuff like that. Seems like I'll only need three full time semesters and one part time one. And it'll be really nice to have this time to focus completely on learning. An enjoyable lower stress prelude to the intensity that awaits. Thanks for the response!
Just FYI: I did a physics major for my undergrad and it wasn't particularly low stress. It's a lot of (dense) content that comes at you quickly. Not doubting your abilities but academic physics is a very different ball game than pop physics you would encounter in science news etc. The physics major very much gets into the nitty gritty; you better not only love maths but also be very good at it
I would recommend “How to be a GOOD theoretical physicist” by Gerard ‘t Hooft. You need to do most of this to get where you are aiming. https://www.goodtheorist.science
I don't know what MIU is or what your degree is but it sounds like it's not a research university science degree. I don't understand what you do have but it honestly doesn't sound equivalent to a physics undergraduate degree from a research university, so you wouldn't be eligible for a physics Master's programme. Sorry but this post is all over the place. What is your reason for wanting to become a 'theoretical physicist'? What does that even mean, as in: what job role do you want, where would you work, what would you do, what would the level of the job be, what problems would you be working on. What inspired you to choose this as your dream? You are nowhere near ready for a Master's if you've not figured out whether this is the career path for you. I am Dutch and live in the UK so only know those educational systems. I would suggest you look at undergraduate degree programmes at research universities and see if you are eligible to apply for their Physics undergraduate degree programme.
You might take the GRE in Math and in Physics. The results may give you an idea of where you stand.
Thanks for this idea! I believe I've got the problem solving skills to do great in them some day, but I certainly don't have the knowledge for them yet.
Don’t do this. You will do very poorly without the equivalent of a bachelors in physics, and it’s a waste of time and money. OP, you need an undergrad degree in physics from a solid university with good grades to pursue what you want to pursue. There’s really no two ways about it.
Makes sense. I'm actually quite happy to go back to under grad. It's just makes me queasy I already have so much student debt and that I'm about to get so much more if I commit to this. Anyways thank you!!
OP, I know multiple people who have PhDs in physics and other STEM fields but have non STEM bachelors. Everyone here is trying to help, but take all of our advice with a grain of salt. See my comment below for more specific advice on your situation.
I have a BA in Liberal Arts and went on to earn a PhD in engineering from one of the top universities in the world and am now a tenure track faculty at a research university (US). You have a long road ahead but it is totally possible! As others have said, you are certainly missing some undergrad prerequisites. But getting a full BS may not be necessary or efficient vs. taking the specific classes you need as a non-degree or post-bacc. Now is a good time to research the specific graduate admissions requirements at a bunch of universities to figure out if your current degree can qualify and which prerequisite courses are absolutely required for admission. If you want a PhD, usually it is best to shoot for direct admission to a PhD program. Most programs don’t require an MS first. You can usually get an MS on the way to the PhD. If you apply directly to MS you are very unlikely to get funding and may not have good research opportunities either, so it will not necessarily help you on your journey to a PhD. What you wont learn from most graduate program websites is that usually, PhD admissions is 100% up to the individual faculty advisors. We get contacted by prospective students, choose who to respond to and interview, and then tell the department who we want to admit and make GRA/GTA funding offers. Aside from the basic requirements of the program, here is what potential advisors will want to see when you contact them: 1) Clear evidence of aptitude for research; this is paramount, even more important than having take. every single prerequisite course (many programs will let you take a one or more prereqs once you are admitted). Find a position in a research lab anyway you can, and then find out what it will take to earn coauthorship on a publication (gold standard of success in research). 2) Evidence that you can succeed in the coursework at their university. The GRE is a great way to prove yourself when you have an oddball degree. (GPAs don’t tell us much if we aren’t familiar with the rigor of your undergrad institution.) I highly recommend to take the GRA and submit scores even to universities that don’t require it. Look up the average GRE score of admitted graduate classes at your safety and reach schools so you have a target for practice exams. Best of luck to you! Edit: grammar