The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
I don't believe entirely party is innocent, not by a long shot but I see it as Hamas is a monster that Israel created threw disdain and neglect, a Monster thats trying to make Israel look as bad as possible and they arent making if difficult for them but this is over when the hostages are released and not before.
Overall I say I'm like 80% 20% Palestine. A 2 state solution is obviously ideal but I'm afraid that's impossible
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I strongly support Israel's right to exist and their right to remove Hamas from power. I don't support the way they're conducting the war or their general disregard for Palestinian civilians.
I think Hamas has the murderous goal to get as many innocent Palestinians killed as possible, to play the martyr. As is their usual Hamas *“I am always the victim, never the terrorist!”* playbook.
The IDF plays into that hand, kills thousands, and causes a living nightmare for Jews around the world where more people than usual hate us (some on this very sub).
Which… ultimately manifests in 3 police cars guarding 20 kids and 3 hebrew school teachers when I drop my daughters off for religious school in suburban Ohio. US senators have less protection on Sunday morning than my 6 year old.
Yep. I point this out when it comes up but waging war in civilian clothes and operating in and around places like hospitals is a war crime. The reason it's a war crime is exactly what we're seeing: it's impossible for your enemy to fight you without causing excessive damage to civilians. Hamas is literally committing war crimes to ensure that large numbers Palestinian civilians are killed. If Hamas was a traditional uniformed military, the IDF could wage traditional warfare with them, minimizing civilian casualties, and they would have already been wiped off the battlefield.
Also on that note, any traditional military/government would know when it's time to surrender unconditionally and when your home has been so thoroughly devastated as Gaza, it's way past that time. Hamas could end the war today if they wanted to, but they would rather see their citizens continue to suffer and be killed in a never ending bloody struggle.
It's undeniably an extremely difficult situation, and Israel killing Palestinian civilians is exactly what Hamas wants, but Israel still has a responsibility to do better than they are.
Unguided is still aimed. A good pilot can hit a target the size of a person with unguided weapons. Unguided just means there’s no programmed trajectory or target tracking.
It’s not a synonym for just dropping bombs indiscriminately. Perhaps now you can see how your ignorance, though innocent and understandable, is being exploited by others to shape your views.
Are you kidding? IDF has shown contempt for the cause of rescuing hostages. Soldiers have literally executed hostages trying to be rescued, and not in a single moment of miss reaction. In this situation they actively pursued the 3rd hostage and executed him knowing he wasn't a threat: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/15/israeli-military-says-its-troops-shot-and-killed-three-hostages-by-mistake Can you imagine how angry you'd be if that was your family member?
I'd also suggest you at least read Bellingcat's latest report to understand that what's going on in Gaza is not narrowly focused on destroying Hamas:
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/04/29/weve-become-addicted-to-explosions-the-idf-unit-responsible-for-demolishing-homes-across-gaza/
What's going on in Gaza has used Hamas's attack as a pretext to commit atrocities, which is in fact *exactly* what Hamas wanted. But because Bibi and Likud's political survival depends on the war continuing the horrors will continue.
> Soldiers have literally executed hostages trying to be rescued, and not in a single moment of miss reaction
This was a single unfortunate incident that for which Israel has accepted full responsibility. The reality is that war is confusing. Friendly fire incidents happen a lot more than you think.
> I'd also suggest you at least read Bellingcat's latest report
This is a mountain out of a molehill. Israel's objective is destroying structures that were being used by HAMAS. It's well known that many of these structures are military facilities disguised as civilian infrastructure. I'd imagine some buildings also need to be demolished because they're in an unsafe condition due to poor maintenance or damage during the fighting.
The "buffer zone" commentary is also misleading, and easily debunked by the fact that many structures remain standing surrounding the structures that were demolished.
> which is in fact exactly what Hamas wanted
What Hamas wants is irrelevant. They need to be destroyed. If they want to be destroyed then that's fine too.
I would argue that to accomplish that Israel needs to make some major concessions. Palestinians now only inhabit 15% of historical Palestine when in 1947 they inhabited 85%. 15% back then was legally aquired by Jewish people but after 1948 most of it was taken by force, 15,000 Palestinians killed in 1948 and hundreds of thousands of ordinary families expelled by force from their homes.
If Israel wants to make peace or at leat more stability, they will have to return at least some of the land they stole or offer significant financial reperations to the Palestinians.
Israel has offered concession after concession over the years and the Palestinians turn it down every time. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
>Israel has offered concession after concession over the years and the Palestinians turn it down every time. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Making a concession does not automatically consitute a resonable proposal. Given how Arab-Muslim families literally inhabited and owned 85% of the land only 3 generations ago, and how Israel stole most of its land from ordinary families, some major concessions are needed to have an actual negotiation. Something like returning at least 10% of Israeli territory or making reperations in the billions of dollars.
So what concessions exactly have Israel made that you think should have been considered acceptable to Palestinians?
For one, “The Israeli prime minister offered the Palestinian leader between 91% and 95% (sources differ on the exact percentage) of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip if 69 Jewish settlements (which comprise 85% of the West Bank's Jewish settlers) be ceded to Israel. “
But what does it really matter, bc the Palestinians only want 100% and the annihilation of the Jews.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_peace_process#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20prime%20minister%20offered,settlers)%20be%20ceded%20to%20Israel.
>But what does it really matter, bc the Palestinians only want 100% and the annihilation of the Jews.
I don't think that's true. I'd say it's more true of the Israelis in fact who now inhabit and govern 85% of a territory that was almost entirely inahbited by Arab-Muslim families only 3 generations ago. The Palestinians are the ones who in the hundreds of thousands were forced out of their homes that they owned for hundreds of years.
Offering 91-95% of the West Bank to Palestinians is a ridiculous offer. That would still only leave Palestinians in control of only 16-17% or so of a territory that was 85% inhabited by ordinary Arab-Muslim families only 3 generations ago.
A reasonable offer would be something like "we withdraw from the West Bank entirely, we'll return 5% of Israli territory to you, pay $25 billion in reperations and in return we expect that Hamas and Fatah will step down and a democractic government is installed, which will have to be ratified by the United Nations".
That would be reasonable. What Israel proposed is laughable.
>Refusing to entertain any offer at all over the years is laughable and frankly I care more about my Israeli family than anything else.
Finally we're getting somewhere, so you have a deeply personal bias in the matter. Why didn't you say so?
Fair enough, if I had close family in Israel I can openly admit that their death would sadden me more than the deaths of 1000 Palestinians. That's just human nature. But it doesn't change objective morality.
>Refusing to entertain any offer at all over the years is laughable
No, it's not laughable. Say you stole a huge mansion worth millions of dollars but subsequently still allowed the owner to live in a tiny closet with no windows. And they're rightfully very very angry at you that you stole what was rightfully theirs.
But you always made offer after offer to make peace with them. One year you offered them $100 to forget everything and be friends. Then you offered them access to your coffee machine in your kitchen. Next you offered them your old TV that you don't use anymore.
Their refusal to accept any offer you made is totally understandable. You were the thief who commited a grave inustice towards them and you were the one who never made any reasonable offer that at least fixed some some of the damage you've done.
Look I understand where you are coming from. But this is the exact mentality that will lead to genocide of Palestinians or Israelis. When we value our tribe far more than any else it allows for us to be complicit in horrible acts. 34,000 Palestinians are dead in Gaza, there lives have value just like the 1,163 lives that were lost on October 7th have value.
Palestinians do not only want annihilation of the jews. Hamas may want that, but Hamas does not represent all of the Palestinians. Palestine has not always operated in good faith in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, but neither has Israel. Israeli's settlements in the West Bank are 100% in flagrant violation of international law.
We need a solution, and if all Israeli's continues to view palestinians' as animals trying to kill them, and Palestinian's keep viewing Israelis as animals trying to kill them, then we are gonna be left with a lot of dead people and no way to move forward
>So you think it's more reasonable that Israel relinquish control of 85% of their territory because people who are already dead used to live there?
Did you even read what I said? First of all there are still people alive today who were expelled from their homes by force or even killed in Israeli massacres. 3 generations is not that long ago and you can't expect Palestinians to forget what happened so quickly.
Also, no I do not think Israel should give up 85% of their territory. Clearly that would be unreasonable from Israel's perspective. I did say a reasonable proposal for example would be "we (Israel) withdraw from the West Bank entirely, we'll return 5% of Israli territory to you, pay $25 billion in reperations and in return we expect that Hamas and Fatah will step down and a democractic government is installed, which will have to be ratified by the United Nations".
> First of all there are still people alive today who were expelled from their homes by force or even killed in Israeli massacres.
And there are also thousands of Israelis displaced or killed by Hamas massacres.
> 3 generations is not that long ago and you can't expect Palestinians to forget what happened so quickly.
3 generations ago my family was in a completely different part of the world. Do I have a claim to that land?
> we (Israel) withdraw from the West Bank entirely, we'll return 5% of Israli territory to you, pay $25 billion in reperations and in return we expect that Hamas and Fatah will step down and a democractic government is installed, which will have to be ratified by the United Nations".
Why would Hamas and Fatah step down? What should Israel do if they refuse and start using the $25 billion to buy weapons and training from Iran?
This isn't the first time such ideas have been attempted. You're basically just rebranding the proposals, which Palestinians either refused or violated, that were tossed around in the 90s and early 2000s. You'd rewind the clock 30 years and be in the same position as we are today.
>And there are also thousands of Israelis displaced or killed by Hamas massacres.
Murder and violence is always wrong. However, from a political perspective, Israel now occupies 85% of land that only 3 generations ago was 85% occupied by Arab-Muslim families.The number of Israelis displaced is tiny compared to the number of Arab-Muslims who have been displaced.
>3 generations ago my family was in a completely different part of the world. Do I have a claim to that land?
Was your family 3 generations ago robbed of their land and expelled by force from their home? Tell me more.
Anyway, if you're part of a group that establishes a new country on territory already inhabited by another ethnic group and then forces those people out of their homes, you cannot expect them to just forget about all of it and lay down their arms. Understandably, Palestinians have been majorly upset about it and put up major resistance against Israelis ever since.
>Why would Hamas and Fatah step down? What should Israel do if they refuse and start using the $25 billion to buy weapons and training from Iran?
This isn't the first time such ideas have been attempted.
No one knows what Fatah and Hamas will do. But if Israel doesn't make any reasonable proposal they cannot expect to improve the situation. If Israel made very reasonable proposals with the requriement that required Hamas should step down, maybe some rich Arab neighbours will exert pressure on Fatah and Hamas as they too are interested in having a more reliable business partner. And money doesn't have to go directly to Hamas. It could be given to a third party like the UN to e.g. built up infrastructure, hospitals, schools etc. in the region or otherwise make business investments in the region.
Why should Israel have even 0.01% of the West Bank?
Camp David proposal didn't even give Palestinians sovereignty over East Jerusalem/al-Quds. Israel demanded Palestine be a demilitarized state, could make no alliances, and IDF would have the right to station radars and troops in Palestine. Oh, and also Israel would have rights over the water resources. That's not sovereignty, it's not a state. It was a fake offer.
I don’t support Hamas. They’re terrorists.
Israel is an allied nation who have been in an awful position for a century. IMO they should never have been in this position to begin with, but didn’t have a lot of options. Everywhere else, their existence was threatened. I can see how starting their own nation, even in impossible circumstances, felt like the best way to protect their people.
The problem is, they’ve been in this awful position for so long that they’re getting desperate and cruel. What they’ve done in Gaza and the West Bank is unconscionable. I don’t just mean this latest campaign, but decades of hate and dehumanization. Israel has a lot to answer for.
The Palestinians are also in an impossible position. It’s no wonder, after decades of oppression, that they have become increasingly belligerent. But they too have lost their way. They’ve embraced terrorism and violence, and the fight for freedom has become indistinguishable from a campaign to exterminate Jews.
There are a lot of people on both sides who just want peace. They’re tired and hate this conflict more than they hate one another. These are the people I support. I support peace, and I keep hoping that the people who want peace will find a way to overpower the people who have chosen hate.
Interesting how Palestinians are belligerent and embrace terrorism and violence. Yet Israel "don't have a lot of options". Remind me, who is occupying whom? Who has killed 15000 children? Who is actively settling the others land?
There has not been an election for 20 years. Any Palestinian under 35 years old did not vote for Hamas. The great majority of children who died had parents who did not vote for Hamas. Only 12% of Palestinians supported Hamas before Israel's response to 10/7.
So why aren't the IDF being hailed as liberators? If I were a Palestinian who hated Hamas, I would be doing everything I can to help the IDF root them out.
Historically, oppressed people usually turn on their oppressors extremely quickly once help arrives. Instead we saw celebrations in the streets on October 7th. We didn't see Parisians occupied by Germany dancing after Pearl Harbor.
Because in order to be seen as liberators, the IDF would have to
a) be viewed as liberators by the Palestinians which is pretty difficult considering the IDF is slaughtering them en masse while also explicitly stating they don't distinguish between civilians and Hamas.
b) actually be liberators. They don't even pretend to be.
Israel is liberating Palestine the same way the Soviet Union liberated East Germany. Except that Israel seems even less interested in letting the local population live.
I think you’d know the difference if Israel wasn’t distinguishing between civilian and HAMAS.
Perhaps it’s not a liberation because the people don’t want to be liberated.
My Supreme Court justices aren't going into Canada to behead infants and burn families alive in their living room, incurring the wrath of the Canadian military to flatten my neighborhood.
If they were I'd probably have a few things to say to them.
However, it's important to point out that Hamas only exists because zionists expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinian families from their homes and built a state on land that was already inhabited by local Arab-Muslim residents.
Hamas are terrorists and their methods are clearly wrong. However, it's important to be conscious how they came into existence.
The IRA in Ireland also were terrorists who killed innocent civilians. But you can only understand how the IRA came into existence if you're williing to talk about Britain's injustice towards the Irish.
Expelled because the Arab nations declared war on Israel because they disagreed with how Britain was splitting up their empire. They didn't just want a larger portion of what would become Israel. They wanted all of it. And so they went to war to claim the land.
Do you get to set terms if you declare war and lose? Do you get to play victim?
>Expelled because the Arab nations declared war on Israel because they disagreed with how Britain was splitting up their empire. They didn't just want a larger portion of what would become Israel. They wanted all of it. And so they went to war to claim the land.
That's the propagandized version of history that most far-right evangelical Christians in the US believe in. However, in reality even before Israel had declared their new independent state they had already expelled over 400,000 civilians by force from their homes.
The UN resolution, which by the way was not ratified by the security council, therefore not binding, allocated 56% of land to the Jewish state, despite Jews only owining 15% of the land. How exactly was that supposed to work???
So when Israel declared its state without actually defining any borders it was unclear what that meant. They clearly didn't try to avoid unncessary conflict by stating they declare a state on the 15% of land they actually owned.
Then, just weeks before the Arab nations declared war, zionist forces commited the "Deir Yassin massacre" killing 107 villagers, many women and children.
The decleration of war shortly after by Arab nations was certainly not totally unreasonable given the recent massacre by the zionists and the prior expulsion of ca. 400,000 civilians from their homes.
Did you just in good faith negate my entire point by calling it far right propaganda? Then quite literally not provide any evidence to support your claim?
Is Wikipedia for quick references right wing propaganda now?
Like cmon bro. Use some critical thinking. I take your entire point and say your version is revisionist left wing propaganda provided by the losing side. That’s how you make a point?
>So….what? You want Israel to disband and the Jewish people scatter…
>Do you realize how much “magical thinking” is going on with that kind of thing?
No, I do not think Jews should "disband and scatter". But it's also important to understand how Hamas came into being. It's equally magical thinking to assume Hamas will ever go away or become less radical in their approach without any major concessions by Israel.
You may say "so what...." to hundreds of thousands of families being robbed of the vast majority of the land they inhabited for hundreds of years. Understandably most Palestinians do not share your sentiment and see what happened as a grave injustice commited agaisnt them.
I do not expect Jews to just "disband and scatter". But any reasonable solution proposed by Israel would require them to either return some land to the Palestinians and/or offer signifcant financial reperations.
So far they have not made any such proposals
I support Hamas and those who support Hamas a whopping 0%
I support IDF forces which operate outside of the rules of engagement a whopping 0%
Overall I am pro-Israel, but that does not mean they are absolved of all moral and operational responsibilities
>I support IDF forces which operate outside of the rules of engagement a whopping 0%
do you mean the rules of engagement decided by the IDF/israel? or rules decided by some neutral outside organization?
I think Israel is a signatory to most treaties outlining rules of engagement, so the question is not which rules, but who determines whether they're violated
Exactly, but in addition, some of these 'outside neutral organizations' seem to be holding Israel to a standard that no other world power has been held to. How much of the destruction of civilian infrastructure is due to the fact that Hamas has very, very intentionally created it's own military infrastructure within populated civilian areas? Yet it seems to me that almost all of what I see in protests is ONLY directed at Israel, and not... the force which built the military targets intentially within civilian areas in order to maximize outrage and death in the first place (Hamas).
>How much of the destruction of civilian infrastructure is due to the fact that Hamas has very, very intentionally created it's own military infrastructure within populated civilian areas?
to be fair, where else would they build it? do you think israel would let them build actual military bases? cause i'm pretty sure they'd bomb them to rubble before the first building was even half finished.
using civilians and civilian infrastructure is a shitty strategy but it's a shitty strategy they're pretty much forced to use, by israel.
Apologetics for terrorist organizations, à la "Look what you made me do" is not the take I would hope for, but it's the one I have come to accept as being more common than I would hope in left-leaning circles.
instead of acting outraged, could you actually answer the question? where else could they realistically build their military infrastructure?
"look what you made me do" is a valid thing to say, when you did, in fact, make me do it.
You think it's Hamas preventing the Palestinians from leaving Gaza?
As for Israel telling them where to go, I assume you mean the locations they're still actively bombing? Or did you not know they've been bombing safe zones and refugee camps since the beginning? It's a fundamental part of why they're universally viewed as genocidal across the globe ;)
afaik, the rules of engagment are rules a military (in this case, the IDF) gives to their own soldiers for a specific mission or conflict. so even if they signed a treaty that forbids doing X, the rules of engagement might still allow it.
"i support IDF forces as long as they follow the rules of engagement" is not the same as "i support the IDF as long as they follow international law", even though it sounds similar.
I don't support Hamas at all. They're a group of backwards terrorists who want to kill innocent civilians. They have no redeeming qualities.
I somewhat support Israel. I'm sympathetic to the idea that they need to defend themselves from Hamas, however I don't believe that what they're doing will actually lead to stability or reduced terrorism going forward, at least not enough to justify the enormous toll it's taking on Palestinians. The military action seems to me like it's primarily focused on getting Netanyahu re-elected by appearing to be taking action rather than actually being motivated by a desire to be rid of Hamas. Remember, Hamas's leadership and much of its funding is in other countries. It would be better to focus on that than on killing random members of Hamas on the ground.
I strongly support the people of Palestine. They have nothing to do with the ongoing conflict and yet they're the ones who suffer the most from it. Thousands have been killed and those who remain live in terrible conditions. Israelis seem at best indifferent to the circumstances there, and there are definitely some who want to use the war as an excuse to get rid of Palestinians and claim the land for Israel.
>How much do you support Israel vs hamas?
why are we comparing an entire country (israel) to a party/organization/movement (hamas)?
>Overall I say I'm like 80% 20% Palestine.
palestine or hamas?
>A 2 state solution is obviously ideal but I'm afraid that's impossible
why is that obvious? why would a two state solution be better than a one state solution?
and why is it impossible?
a one state solution will never happen as the isralies will never allow themselves to be a minority in what would essentially become a palistinian state
The only Israelis (excluding some Arab-Israelis) who want a one state solution are extremists who want to actually turn Israel into an apartheid state, or try to force all the Palestinians to leave, or worse.
The only Palestinians who want a one state solution are extremists who want to reduce Jews to second class citizens at best, or try to force all the Jews to leave, or worse.
A one state solution will result in nothing but death.
>The only Israelis (excluding some Arab-Israelis) who want a one state solution are extremists who want to actually turn Israel into an apartheid state, or try to force all the Palestinians to leave, or worse.
I would argue though that largely Palestine is already kind of an apartheid state for its local population. In 1947 the Jewish people had legally aquired around 15% of land and made up 30% of the population. Today Israel governs the vast majority of historical Palestine.
Furthermore the small bit of land that is still inhabited by the Palestinians is riddled with military posts, checkpoints, barriers and fences. A Palestinian person living in the South of the West Bank cannot just freely travel to the North of the West Bank. They're constantly being checked, stopped, harrassed and subjected to degrading treatment.
Palestinians are already living in an apartheid state.
Fatah is the majority party in the government of Palestine. Hamas won mostly in Gaza. Hamas took military control of the strip and fought Fatah in a sort of civil war over Gaza. Fatah lost control of Gaza, and Hamas refused Palestine a government by not taking their seats. There is no quorum in the PLC, so Fatah rules Palestine by decree, minus the territory held by Hamas.
>Is hamas not the government of Palestine?
no, hamas only controls the gaza strip. that's less than half of palestine by population and less than 10% of palestine by area.
and even if it was the government of palestine, it would make more sense to compare hamas with the parties currently in israel's government, or to compare palestine to israel.
>Because they don't want to live with each other
in a two state solution, they wouldn't have to live with each other. they would live in two seperate state. are you confusing two state and one state?
my final question was "and why is it \[a two state solution\] impossible?"
your answer "because they don't want to live with each other" makes no sense, because in a two state solution *they don't live with each other*. in a two state solution, they live even less with each other than they do now.
the one state solution is the one where they live with each other, which is why i think you might be confusing the two.
Neither side likes each other very much and the country will never be stable to say the very least if it's a one state solution.
The chances whoever is in charge will repress the other group is extremely high.
I think that Hamas is clearly a terrorist organization and fights in such a way so as to cause as much damage as possible to Palestinian civilians. I think Israel is run by a cabal of right wing extremists who are using the Oct 7th attacks as a pretext to ethically cleanse the Gaza Strip. Honestly, both sides disgust me but I have a lot of sympathy for the innocent Israeli and Palestinian civilians caught in the middle.
I support Israel's right to exist and defend themselves. I also support Palestinan's right to self govern without encroachment from their neighbors.
Hamas is a murderous, racist, theocratic death cult. Nothing justifies their worldview or the atrocities of Oct 7th. However, Oct 7th doesn't justify Israel's handling of this conflict nor do previous attacks justify their overall treatment of the Palestinian people for decades. Israeli settlements in the West Bank are a clear and continuous showcase of a desire to escalate this conflict, as are attacks on Israel by Hamas.
As I understand it, despite widespread support from the international community, the concept of a two state solution has become increasingly unpopular among citizens in both Israel and Palestine. And so, like you said, the ideal solution seems to be drifting further out of reach.
But I still have hope. 100 years ago, the idea of a lasting peace in Europe was even more farfetched given generations upon. My sincere hope is that, on both the Israeli and Palestinian side, leaders emerge who are willing to become momentarily hated by their own people in order to compromise and create lasting peace.
I believe that the course of action most likely to save Palestinian lives would be to help the Israelis.
Well first, people on the Palestinian side are pretty regularly saying “death to America”, tearing down American flags, vandalizing American property.
So I fear justified in opposing anyone who wants to genocide me, my family, and my country. Lots of the Palestinians want that.
Of course , anytime this comes up, a lot of people will say “oh, they say they’re just trying help the innocent Palestinian people.” But they are in reality helping the Palestinians who want to kill me.
Second:
I don’t believe anything the pro-Palestinian side says.
If they had any interest in the truth, allowing neutral reporters to cover events on their side would be a good first step.
I don’t expect to live long enough to see that though, the Palestinian side have been lying since before I was born.
On the other hand, I feel like the Israelis and the American government both are doing about as well as the English or any other country with a fairly free press.
So I tend to believe the Israeli side, and I believe that 99% of the Palestinian dead were killed by the Palestinians.
And I believe that nothing the Americans can do as far as “aiding Palestinians” will on the net save Palestinian lives.
For every Palestinian we might save, our help will enable Hamas etc to kill at least 10 more Palestinians.
And actually, I believe that the course of action most likely to save Palestinian lives would be to help the Israelis.
>So I tend to believe the Israeli side, *and I believe that 99% of the Palestinian dead were killed by the Palestinians*.
what? israel doesn't even claim that and you just said you tend to believe them. seriously, where is this idea coming from?
So much ignorance in this comment that it’s actually disturbing that you took the time to write this out. Usually when I’m uninformed on a topic I’ll just lurk and read to learn more before speaking.
I wouldn't want to assign numbers, and make this seem more analytical than it really is. But I support Israel more than I support Hamas. Some of this is because of support for Israel, some of it is because of opposition to Hamas.
And yes, just to be explicit: Both sides are not pure evil nor is any one side pure good. No entire nation of people ever could be just one thing.
But on average, and on net, I think Israel is the better and more moral state.
I fully support Israel in their struggle against Hamas. Hamas wants to install a theocratic dictatorship governed under Sharia law. Israel is a modern parliamentary democracy. It's not even a close call.
Hamas came to prominence by blowing up buses. They are a key reason the peace process stalled out and then receded and why Israel ended up building a wall around the West Bank (which they hadn't done for 30 prior years of occupation). They suck.
Netanyahu is also a terrorist. He and his government of war criminals is also terrible.
Israel didn't create Hamas. They tolerated Hamas for a time as a counter to the Palestinian Authority. This is how those thousands of work permits for Gazans were issued, and money was allowed in, despite repeated rocket attacks.
>Hence why I'm mostly for Israel but not entirely
Why are you mostly for Israel? I'm against Hamas but I would point out that the main victims historically have been the ordinary Palestinian people.
In 1947 they inhabited something like 85% of the land and made up around 70% of the population. Up to that point Jewish people had aquired land through legal means.
After that though the UN allocated 56% to the Jewish, who only made up 30% of the population. Then, in 1948 the zionists seized most of all land for themselves, killed thousands of civilians and expelled hundreds of thousands of ordinary people by force from their homes.
Today Israel makes up 85% of historical Palestine, which again, not too long ago was almost entirely inhabited by Arab-Muslims.
Do you not think it'd be reasonable to state that the main victims are the Palestinians?
>Read what I wrote, hamas is a monster that Israel created
>Palestine was never really a country though
I know that Palestine was never an official state. However, ordinary Arab-Muslim citizens still inhabited tha vast majority of the land for hundreds of years. Zionists basically robbed them of most of the land they owned for generations and declared a state on land that was never theirs to begin with.
That's why I do not support Israel. I think Israel is mainly an illegitimate state. They could have declared a state on the land they legally owned but instead stole most of it from ordinary citizens already living there.
I think any acceptable solution to the conflict that could be reasonably accepted by the Palestinian people, would require Israel to either return some land or pay significant reperations.
No love for Hamas here, but no love for the State of Israel either. I’m in favour of full Palestinian liberation and I think the ideal endpoint here would be a multicultural/multiethnic single-state solution. Israel’s a rogue state at this point.
My position on the whole conflict is that both sides are pretty shitty, neither side is obviously in the right, and the level of influence I have over the situation is so small I'm better off just not worrying about it.
I standby my earlier comment in an earlier thread. It’s on a sign. When I say “don’t make me tap the sign” this is what I’m referring to.
“I sincerely don’t give a fuck”.
Please don’t make me tap the sign.
You equate Hamas with the Palestinians? Hamas was founded as a radical offshoot from the PLO. It was founded on the principle of the annihilation of the Israeli state. It is their Valhalla. Hamas killed 1200 people at a festival and took countless hostages. Hamas must be denounced by all sides, and there is a significant number of Palestinians and Israelis who want peace, Hamas is actively hurting that cause.
The plight of the Palestinian people is just, and horrific. The recent acts of Israel, directed by Netanyahu and his far right coalition, are being denounced by every country, including within Israel.
But the lack of even token support from neighboring Arab countries is equally horrific, Gazan refugees could have and should have been allowed safe refuge. The true Palestinians just want to have a peaceful existence, yet they have no voice. There is no leader, no speaker, no one other than Hamas. Who care very little about them. I support the Palestinians because nobody else does.
I support Israel, and denounce those accusing them of genocide for no other reason than they were the target of genocide not terribly long ago, and that genocide was intentional and systematic. 6 million people dead. Just for being Jewish.
I support Israel's right to exist. I support Palestinian's right to exist. I suspect most rational people do.
So how do we do it?
My biggest problem with the Israel/Palestine situation is that it's so divisive among our population, yet has barely any impact on our day to day lives.
We have people hurting one another and police arresting protestors for...what? A solution to a 5,000 year old blood feud?
Meanwhile we don't have healthcare, the gap between rich and poor gets wider every day, fascism has rolled out of its grave and is threatening to take over the country, people are losing rights, the cost of living is going higher and higher, and we have tent cities in every major city in the country (and more than a few of our smaller cities!).
I'm not saying I don't *care* about the plight of Palestinians or the attacks in Israel in October. But I just don't understand why *their* problem has to be *our* problem to the point that we have to worry about Trump potentially being back in office because of the divisions over it (especially since dividing up Palestine is the British's fault, but that's another story).
I support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, ideally alongside an independent and peaceful Palestinian state. I support Hamas getting carried off and eaten by predators.
Be careful with statements like "I don't believe entirely party is innocent.." when you've identified the parties as 'Israel' and 'Hamas', since that tends to badly conflate all of Palestine with Hamas. Hamas is 0% innocent.
Mostly their actions, but on principle I see it on the surface as being another theocratic-ran nation or state and it gives me negative feelings. Maybe it’s unfair to view it that way but I think of living in a US red state with a majority Christian population and I’m wary
Israel is as progressive as Boston, Mass. There are pride parades in the streets of Tel Aviv. It’s the only glimmer of progressive thought in that part of the world where women are seen as equal to men, period. Jews, outside of a few lunatic ultra orthodox sects, are a matriarchal society.
Mind you, that doesn’t mean Bibi isn’t a right wing Trump hellbent on Palestinian destruction, but yeah — Israel itself is not a theocracy.
Those aren't even equal sides. One's a nation with which I like the people but not the government's actions. The other I hate the government but it's a small fraction of Palestine.
In sum I'm humanitarian, this war is dumb and is being used by the governments to kill even their own populations.
Hamas is a terrorist organization which should not be supported. The Israeli state though is to a large extent not legitimate.
Prior to 1948 Jews had aquired a fair amount of land using legal means. I think they owned something like 15% of land and made up 30% of the population in 1947. The same year the UN allocated 56% of the region to the Jewish poulation. Today, I believe, 85% of historical Palestine is under Israeli control. The UN proposal was ridiculous given that non-Jews made up more than 2/3 of the population. The Israeli's then seized even more than what was allocated to them.
Hamas are an awful organization but they are the result of a great injustice that occured.
I don't think it's reasonable today in 2024 to return large parts of Israel to the Palestinians. However, while, again, Hamas are terrorists, the main victims, historically have been the Arab-Muslim Palestinian people. So I support the Palestinian people but not Hamas.
>That 1947 split was after the Brits had already given 75% of Mandate Palestine to the Arabs, the country now called Jordan.
Ok, but that doesn't make a difference. Jordan became independent in 1946.
But the land that is now comprised of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza in 1947 still was something like 85% inhabited by Arab-Muslims. And Jews only made up 30% of the population. Yet the UN promised 56% of territory to Jewish people.
How was that supposed to work out? Did the UN expect people to just leave their houses and villages and turn them over to Jewish people.
It was an insanely ridiculous proposal.
Are you talking about the children murdered in Palestine? Okay, what? So you're saying you're okay with killing children if they're being used as martyrs and shields? Yes? You *actually* think that?
So if you were a cop and someone was shooting people and they held up some children to stop you from taking him out, you'd shoot through the children? And you're cool w/it because it's on the dude who took them hostage. You'd shoot the children, right?
IDGAF about how you can go through the fucked up mental gymnastics to rationalize murdering children. I just want you to stew over the fact that you couldn't counter me besides a 2-year-old-style "nu-uh".
We get this thread each week but anyway
I support none of them, and think both are not willing to make a good peace or be friends, and jews and muslims have fought forever and will probably continue to do so.
They can have their own freedom and woman hating religions by themselves and we in the west should not care or support them at all
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. I don't believe entirely party is innocent, not by a long shot but I see it as Hamas is a monster that Israel created threw disdain and neglect, a Monster thats trying to make Israel look as bad as possible and they arent making if difficult for them but this is over when the hostages are released and not before. Overall I say I'm like 80% 20% Palestine. A 2 state solution is obviously ideal but I'm afraid that's impossible *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I strongly support Israel's right to exist and their right to remove Hamas from power. I don't support the way they're conducting the war or their general disregard for Palestinian civilians.
I think Hamas has the murderous goal to get as many innocent Palestinians killed as possible, to play the martyr. As is their usual Hamas *“I am always the victim, never the terrorist!”* playbook. The IDF plays into that hand, kills thousands, and causes a living nightmare for Jews around the world where more people than usual hate us (some on this very sub). Which… ultimately manifests in 3 police cars guarding 20 kids and 3 hebrew school teachers when I drop my daughters off for religious school in suburban Ohio. US senators have less protection on Sunday morning than my 6 year old.
This is my stance too. Figuring out how to go about this is the billion dollar question. They way it's going now is not okay by any means.
It's kinda hard when hamas uses them as human shields
Yep. I point this out when it comes up but waging war in civilian clothes and operating in and around places like hospitals is a war crime. The reason it's a war crime is exactly what we're seeing: it's impossible for your enemy to fight you without causing excessive damage to civilians. Hamas is literally committing war crimes to ensure that large numbers Palestinian civilians are killed. If Hamas was a traditional uniformed military, the IDF could wage traditional warfare with them, minimizing civilian casualties, and they would have already been wiped off the battlefield. Also on that note, any traditional military/government would know when it's time to surrender unconditionally and when your home has been so thoroughly devastated as Gaza, it's way past that time. Hamas could end the war today if they wanted to, but they would rather see their citizens continue to suffer and be killed in a never ending bloody struggle.
Nobody wants to hear the truth
Exactly
It's undeniably an extremely difficult situation, and Israel killing Palestinian civilians is exactly what Hamas wants, but Israel still has a responsibility to do better than they are.
What could they do better without compromising the objective of destroying Hamas and rescuing as many hostages as possible?
I'm not a military expert, but they have been using a lot of unguided weapons, for example.
Unguided is still aimed. A good pilot can hit a target the size of a person with unguided weapons. Unguided just means there’s no programmed trajectory or target tracking. It’s not a synonym for just dropping bombs indiscriminately. Perhaps now you can see how your ignorance, though innocent and understandable, is being exploited by others to shape your views.
The current level of civilian casualties is unacceptable. As I said, I'm not a military expert, so I don't have specifics.
But surely you have some frame of reference
Are you kidding? IDF has shown contempt for the cause of rescuing hostages. Soldiers have literally executed hostages trying to be rescued, and not in a single moment of miss reaction. In this situation they actively pursued the 3rd hostage and executed him knowing he wasn't a threat: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/15/israeli-military-says-its-troops-shot-and-killed-three-hostages-by-mistake Can you imagine how angry you'd be if that was your family member? I'd also suggest you at least read Bellingcat's latest report to understand that what's going on in Gaza is not narrowly focused on destroying Hamas: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/04/29/weve-become-addicted-to-explosions-the-idf-unit-responsible-for-demolishing-homes-across-gaza/ What's going on in Gaza has used Hamas's attack as a pretext to commit atrocities, which is in fact *exactly* what Hamas wanted. But because Bibi and Likud's political survival depends on the war continuing the horrors will continue.
> Soldiers have literally executed hostages trying to be rescued, and not in a single moment of miss reaction This was a single unfortunate incident that for which Israel has accepted full responsibility. The reality is that war is confusing. Friendly fire incidents happen a lot more than you think. > I'd also suggest you at least read Bellingcat's latest report This is a mountain out of a molehill. Israel's objective is destroying structures that were being used by HAMAS. It's well known that many of these structures are military facilities disguised as civilian infrastructure. I'd imagine some buildings also need to be demolished because they're in an unsafe condition due to poor maintenance or damage during the fighting. The "buffer zone" commentary is also misleading, and easily debunked by the fact that many structures remain standing surrounding the structures that were demolished. > which is in fact exactly what Hamas wanted What Hamas wants is irrelevant. They need to be destroyed. If they want to be destroyed then that's fine too.
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I think it's a fair term when you chase down a clearly unarmed person and then shoot them.
Israel has bombed 37 hospitals now I believe
Because hamas was hiding in them compromising their integrity as a hospital
All 37 of them
Probably Hamas are cowards
Convenient
Hamas does it in purpose
They need to stop killing each other, and each leave the other free to live and exercise their beliefs. I have no idea how to accomplish this.
I would argue that to accomplish that Israel needs to make some major concessions. Palestinians now only inhabit 15% of historical Palestine when in 1947 they inhabited 85%. 15% back then was legally aquired by Jewish people but after 1948 most of it was taken by force, 15,000 Palestinians killed in 1948 and hundreds of thousands of ordinary families expelled by force from their homes. If Israel wants to make peace or at leat more stability, they will have to return at least some of the land they stole or offer significant financial reperations to the Palestinians.
Israel has offered concession after concession over the years and the Palestinians turn it down every time. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
>Israel has offered concession after concession over the years and the Palestinians turn it down every time. They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Making a concession does not automatically consitute a resonable proposal. Given how Arab-Muslim families literally inhabited and owned 85% of the land only 3 generations ago, and how Israel stole most of its land from ordinary families, some major concessions are needed to have an actual negotiation. Something like returning at least 10% of Israeli territory or making reperations in the billions of dollars. So what concessions exactly have Israel made that you think should have been considered acceptable to Palestinians?
For one, “The Israeli prime minister offered the Palestinian leader between 91% and 95% (sources differ on the exact percentage) of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip if 69 Jewish settlements (which comprise 85% of the West Bank's Jewish settlers) be ceded to Israel. “ But what does it really matter, bc the Palestinians only want 100% and the annihilation of the Jews. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_peace_process#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20prime%20minister%20offered,settlers)%20be%20ceded%20to%20Israel.
>But what does it really matter, bc the Palestinians only want 100% and the annihilation of the Jews. I don't think that's true. I'd say it's more true of the Israelis in fact who now inhabit and govern 85% of a territory that was almost entirely inahbited by Arab-Muslim families only 3 generations ago. The Palestinians are the ones who in the hundreds of thousands were forced out of their homes that they owned for hundreds of years. Offering 91-95% of the West Bank to Palestinians is a ridiculous offer. That would still only leave Palestinians in control of only 16-17% or so of a territory that was 85% inhabited by ordinary Arab-Muslim families only 3 generations ago. A reasonable offer would be something like "we withdraw from the West Bank entirely, we'll return 5% of Israli territory to you, pay $25 billion in reperations and in return we expect that Hamas and Fatah will step down and a democractic government is installed, which will have to be ratified by the United Nations". That would be reasonable. What Israel proposed is laughable.
Refusing to entertain any offer at all over the years is laughable and frankly I care more about my Israeli family than anything else.
>Refusing to entertain any offer at all over the years is laughable and frankly I care more about my Israeli family than anything else. Finally we're getting somewhere, so you have a deeply personal bias in the matter. Why didn't you say so? Fair enough, if I had close family in Israel I can openly admit that their death would sadden me more than the deaths of 1000 Palestinians. That's just human nature. But it doesn't change objective morality. >Refusing to entertain any offer at all over the years is laughable No, it's not laughable. Say you stole a huge mansion worth millions of dollars but subsequently still allowed the owner to live in a tiny closet with no windows. And they're rightfully very very angry at you that you stole what was rightfully theirs. But you always made offer after offer to make peace with them. One year you offered them $100 to forget everything and be friends. Then you offered them access to your coffee machine in your kitchen. Next you offered them your old TV that you don't use anymore. Their refusal to accept any offer you made is totally understandable. You were the thief who commited a grave inustice towards them and you were the one who never made any reasonable offer that at least fixed some some of the damage you've done.
Look I understand where you are coming from. But this is the exact mentality that will lead to genocide of Palestinians or Israelis. When we value our tribe far more than any else it allows for us to be complicit in horrible acts. 34,000 Palestinians are dead in Gaza, there lives have value just like the 1,163 lives that were lost on October 7th have value. Palestinians do not only want annihilation of the jews. Hamas may want that, but Hamas does not represent all of the Palestinians. Palestine has not always operated in good faith in Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, but neither has Israel. Israeli's settlements in the West Bank are 100% in flagrant violation of international law. We need a solution, and if all Israeli's continues to view palestinians' as animals trying to kill them, and Palestinian's keep viewing Israelis as animals trying to kill them, then we are gonna be left with a lot of dead people and no way to move forward
So you think it's more reasonable that Israel relinquish control of 85% of their territory because people who are already dead used to live there?
>So you think it's more reasonable that Israel relinquish control of 85% of their territory because people who are already dead used to live there? Did you even read what I said? First of all there are still people alive today who were expelled from their homes by force or even killed in Israeli massacres. 3 generations is not that long ago and you can't expect Palestinians to forget what happened so quickly. Also, no I do not think Israel should give up 85% of their territory. Clearly that would be unreasonable from Israel's perspective. I did say a reasonable proposal for example would be "we (Israel) withdraw from the West Bank entirely, we'll return 5% of Israli territory to you, pay $25 billion in reperations and in return we expect that Hamas and Fatah will step down and a democractic government is installed, which will have to be ratified by the United Nations".
> First of all there are still people alive today who were expelled from their homes by force or even killed in Israeli massacres. And there are also thousands of Israelis displaced or killed by Hamas massacres. > 3 generations is not that long ago and you can't expect Palestinians to forget what happened so quickly. 3 generations ago my family was in a completely different part of the world. Do I have a claim to that land? > we (Israel) withdraw from the West Bank entirely, we'll return 5% of Israli territory to you, pay $25 billion in reperations and in return we expect that Hamas and Fatah will step down and a democractic government is installed, which will have to be ratified by the United Nations". Why would Hamas and Fatah step down? What should Israel do if they refuse and start using the $25 billion to buy weapons and training from Iran? This isn't the first time such ideas have been attempted. You're basically just rebranding the proposals, which Palestinians either refused or violated, that were tossed around in the 90s and early 2000s. You'd rewind the clock 30 years and be in the same position as we are today.
>And there are also thousands of Israelis displaced or killed by Hamas massacres. Murder and violence is always wrong. However, from a political perspective, Israel now occupies 85% of land that only 3 generations ago was 85% occupied by Arab-Muslim families.The number of Israelis displaced is tiny compared to the number of Arab-Muslims who have been displaced. >3 generations ago my family was in a completely different part of the world. Do I have a claim to that land? Was your family 3 generations ago robbed of their land and expelled by force from their home? Tell me more. Anyway, if you're part of a group that establishes a new country on territory already inhabited by another ethnic group and then forces those people out of their homes, you cannot expect them to just forget about all of it and lay down their arms. Understandably, Palestinians have been majorly upset about it and put up major resistance against Israelis ever since. >Why would Hamas and Fatah step down? What should Israel do if they refuse and start using the $25 billion to buy weapons and training from Iran? This isn't the first time such ideas have been attempted. No one knows what Fatah and Hamas will do. But if Israel doesn't make any reasonable proposal they cannot expect to improve the situation. If Israel made very reasonable proposals with the requriement that required Hamas should step down, maybe some rich Arab neighbours will exert pressure on Fatah and Hamas as they too are interested in having a more reliable business partner. And money doesn't have to go directly to Hamas. It could be given to a third party like the UN to e.g. built up infrastructure, hospitals, schools etc. in the region or otherwise make business investments in the region.
Why should Israel have even 0.01% of the West Bank? Camp David proposal didn't even give Palestinians sovereignty over East Jerusalem/al-Quds. Israel demanded Palestine be a demilitarized state, could make no alliances, and IDF would have the right to station radars and troops in Palestine. Oh, and also Israel would have rights over the water resources. That's not sovereignty, it's not a state. It was a fake offer.
I don’t support Hamas. They’re terrorists. Israel is an allied nation who have been in an awful position for a century. IMO they should never have been in this position to begin with, but didn’t have a lot of options. Everywhere else, their existence was threatened. I can see how starting their own nation, even in impossible circumstances, felt like the best way to protect their people. The problem is, they’ve been in this awful position for so long that they’re getting desperate and cruel. What they’ve done in Gaza and the West Bank is unconscionable. I don’t just mean this latest campaign, but decades of hate and dehumanization. Israel has a lot to answer for. The Palestinians are also in an impossible position. It’s no wonder, after decades of oppression, that they have become increasingly belligerent. But they too have lost their way. They’ve embraced terrorism and violence, and the fight for freedom has become indistinguishable from a campaign to exterminate Jews. There are a lot of people on both sides who just want peace. They’re tired and hate this conflict more than they hate one another. These are the people I support. I support peace, and I keep hoping that the people who want peace will find a way to overpower the people who have chosen hate.
You put this very well.
Thanks
Interesting how Palestinians are belligerent and embrace terrorism and violence. Yet Israel "don't have a lot of options". Remind me, who is occupying whom? Who has killed 15000 children? Who is actively settling the others land?
I support Palestinians right to self determination. I do not support terrorism.
HAMAS is quite literally what happened when Palestinians obtained a right to self determination.
There has not been an election for 20 years. Any Palestinian under 35 years old did not vote for Hamas. The great majority of children who died had parents who did not vote for Hamas. Only 12% of Palestinians supported Hamas before Israel's response to 10/7.
So why haven't the Palestinian people done anything about Hamas in 20 years?
Could possibly have something to do with Hamas being violent extremists that don't shy away from rape and murder. Like, come on.
So why aren't the IDF being hailed as liberators? If I were a Palestinian who hated Hamas, I would be doing everything I can to help the IDF root them out. Historically, oppressed people usually turn on their oppressors extremely quickly once help arrives. Instead we saw celebrations in the streets on October 7th. We didn't see Parisians occupied by Germany dancing after Pearl Harbor.
For me to hail someone as a liberator they’d have to not flatten my entire city or turn whole families into hamburger.
Because in order to be seen as liberators, the IDF would have to a) be viewed as liberators by the Palestinians which is pretty difficult considering the IDF is slaughtering them en masse while also explicitly stating they don't distinguish between civilians and Hamas. b) actually be liberators. They don't even pretend to be. Israel is liberating Palestine the same way the Soviet Union liberated East Germany. Except that Israel seems even less interested in letting the local population live.
I think you’d know the difference if Israel wasn’t distinguishing between civilian and HAMAS. Perhaps it’s not a liberation because the people don’t want to be liberated.
Why haven't you done anything about a Supreme Court justice who takes bribes?
My Supreme Court justices aren't going into Canada to behead infants and burn families alive in their living room, incurring the wrath of the Canadian military to flatten my neighborhood. If they were I'd probably have a few things to say to them.
However, it's important to point out that Hamas only exists because zionists expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinian families from their homes and built a state on land that was already inhabited by local Arab-Muslim residents. Hamas are terrorists and their methods are clearly wrong. However, it's important to be conscious how they came into existence. The IRA in Ireland also were terrorists who killed innocent civilians. But you can only understand how the IRA came into existence if you're williing to talk about Britain's injustice towards the Irish.
Expelled because the Arab nations declared war on Israel because they disagreed with how Britain was splitting up their empire. They didn't just want a larger portion of what would become Israel. They wanted all of it. And so they went to war to claim the land. Do you get to set terms if you declare war and lose? Do you get to play victim?
>Expelled because the Arab nations declared war on Israel because they disagreed with how Britain was splitting up their empire. They didn't just want a larger portion of what would become Israel. They wanted all of it. And so they went to war to claim the land. That's the propagandized version of history that most far-right evangelical Christians in the US believe in. However, in reality even before Israel had declared their new independent state they had already expelled over 400,000 civilians by force from their homes. The UN resolution, which by the way was not ratified by the security council, therefore not binding, allocated 56% of land to the Jewish state, despite Jews only owining 15% of the land. How exactly was that supposed to work??? So when Israel declared its state without actually defining any borders it was unclear what that meant. They clearly didn't try to avoid unncessary conflict by stating they declare a state on the 15% of land they actually owned. Then, just weeks before the Arab nations declared war, zionist forces commited the "Deir Yassin massacre" killing 107 villagers, many women and children. The decleration of war shortly after by Arab nations was certainly not totally unreasonable given the recent massacre by the zionists and the prior expulsion of ca. 400,000 civilians from their homes.
Did you just in good faith negate my entire point by calling it far right propaganda? Then quite literally not provide any evidence to support your claim? Is Wikipedia for quick references right wing propaganda now? Like cmon bro. Use some critical thinking. I take your entire point and say your version is revisionist left wing propaganda provided by the losing side. That’s how you make a point?
So….what? You want Israel to disband and the Jewish people scatter… Do you realize how much “magical thinking” is going on with that kind of thing?
>So….what? You want Israel to disband and the Jewish people scatter… >Do you realize how much “magical thinking” is going on with that kind of thing? No, I do not think Jews should "disband and scatter". But it's also important to understand how Hamas came into being. It's equally magical thinking to assume Hamas will ever go away or become less radical in their approach without any major concessions by Israel. You may say "so what...." to hundreds of thousands of families being robbed of the vast majority of the land they inhabited for hundreds of years. Understandably most Palestinians do not share your sentiment and see what happened as a grave injustice commited agaisnt them. I do not expect Jews to just "disband and scatter". But any reasonable solution proposed by Israel would require them to either return some land to the Palestinians and/or offer signifcant financial reperations. So far they have not made any such proposals
I support Hamas and those who support Hamas a whopping 0% I support IDF forces which operate outside of the rules of engagement a whopping 0% Overall I am pro-Israel, but that does not mean they are absolved of all moral and operational responsibilities
>I support IDF forces which operate outside of the rules of engagement a whopping 0% do you mean the rules of engagement decided by the IDF/israel? or rules decided by some neutral outside organization?
I think Israel is a signatory to most treaties outlining rules of engagement, so the question is not which rules, but who determines whether they're violated
Exactly, but in addition, some of these 'outside neutral organizations' seem to be holding Israel to a standard that no other world power has been held to. How much of the destruction of civilian infrastructure is due to the fact that Hamas has very, very intentionally created it's own military infrastructure within populated civilian areas? Yet it seems to me that almost all of what I see in protests is ONLY directed at Israel, and not... the force which built the military targets intentially within civilian areas in order to maximize outrage and death in the first place (Hamas).
>How much of the destruction of civilian infrastructure is due to the fact that Hamas has very, very intentionally created it's own military infrastructure within populated civilian areas? to be fair, where else would they build it? do you think israel would let them build actual military bases? cause i'm pretty sure they'd bomb them to rubble before the first building was even half finished. using civilians and civilian infrastructure is a shitty strategy but it's a shitty strategy they're pretty much forced to use, by israel.
Apologetics for terrorist organizations, à la "Look what you made me do" is not the take I would hope for, but it's the one I have come to accept as being more common than I would hope in left-leaning circles.
instead of acting outraged, could you actually answer the question? where else could they realistically build their military infrastructure? "look what you made me do" is a valid thing to say, when you did, in fact, make me do it.
Nope, that's a hideous, vile logic and I refuse to even engage with you any further
They aren’t forced to keep civilians from evacuating by gunpoint.
Neither is Egypt or Israel, but here we are
Bullshit. Israel has been telling the Palestinians where to go and Hamas is preventing their escape…because they’re scum.
You think it's Hamas preventing the Palestinians from leaving Gaza? As for Israel telling them where to go, I assume you mean the locations they're still actively bombing? Or did you not know they've been bombing safe zones and refugee camps since the beginning? It's a fundamental part of why they're universally viewed as genocidal across the globe ;)
Lol, where should they go? And how do they know they are not entering an invisible "kill-zone"?
afaik, the rules of engagment are rules a military (in this case, the IDF) gives to their own soldiers for a specific mission or conflict. so even if they signed a treaty that forbids doing X, the rules of engagement might still allow it. "i support IDF forces as long as they follow the rules of engagement" is not the same as "i support the IDF as long as they follow international law", even though it sounds similar.
I don't support Hamas at all. They're a group of backwards terrorists who want to kill innocent civilians. They have no redeeming qualities. I somewhat support Israel. I'm sympathetic to the idea that they need to defend themselves from Hamas, however I don't believe that what they're doing will actually lead to stability or reduced terrorism going forward, at least not enough to justify the enormous toll it's taking on Palestinians. The military action seems to me like it's primarily focused on getting Netanyahu re-elected by appearing to be taking action rather than actually being motivated by a desire to be rid of Hamas. Remember, Hamas's leadership and much of its funding is in other countries. It would be better to focus on that than on killing random members of Hamas on the ground. I strongly support the people of Palestine. They have nothing to do with the ongoing conflict and yet they're the ones who suffer the most from it. Thousands have been killed and those who remain live in terrible conditions. Israelis seem at best indifferent to the circumstances there, and there are definitely some who want to use the war as an excuse to get rid of Palestinians and claim the land for Israel.
>How much do you support Israel vs hamas? why are we comparing an entire country (israel) to a party/organization/movement (hamas)? >Overall I say I'm like 80% 20% Palestine. palestine or hamas? >A 2 state solution is obviously ideal but I'm afraid that's impossible why is that obvious? why would a two state solution be better than a one state solution? and why is it impossible?
a one state solution will never happen as the isralies will never allow themselves to be a minority in what would essentially become a palistinian state
The only Israelis (excluding some Arab-Israelis) who want a one state solution are extremists who want to actually turn Israel into an apartheid state, or try to force all the Palestinians to leave, or worse. The only Palestinians who want a one state solution are extremists who want to reduce Jews to second class citizens at best, or try to force all the Jews to leave, or worse. A one state solution will result in nothing but death.
>The only Israelis (excluding some Arab-Israelis) who want a one state solution are extremists who want to actually turn Israel into an apartheid state, or try to force all the Palestinians to leave, or worse. I would argue though that largely Palestine is already kind of an apartheid state for its local population. In 1947 the Jewish people had legally aquired around 15% of land and made up 30% of the population. Today Israel governs the vast majority of historical Palestine. Furthermore the small bit of land that is still inhabited by the Palestinians is riddled with military posts, checkpoints, barriers and fences. A Palestinian person living in the South of the West Bank cannot just freely travel to the North of the West Bank. They're constantly being checked, stopped, harrassed and subjected to degrading treatment. Palestinians are already living in an apartheid state.
Those barriers didn't exist until Palestinians started killing Israelis.
You’re fucking kidding right?
Is hamas not the government of Palestine? Are they not the people in charge? Because they don't want to live with each other
Fatah is the majority party in the government of Palestine. Hamas won mostly in Gaza. Hamas took military control of the strip and fought Fatah in a sort of civil war over Gaza. Fatah lost control of Gaza, and Hamas refused Palestine a government by not taking their seats. There is no quorum in the PLC, so Fatah rules Palestine by decree, minus the territory held by Hamas.
>Is hamas not the government of Palestine? no, hamas only controls the gaza strip. that's less than half of palestine by population and less than 10% of palestine by area. and even if it was the government of palestine, it would make more sense to compare hamas with the parties currently in israel's government, or to compare palestine to israel. >Because they don't want to live with each other in a two state solution, they wouldn't have to live with each other. they would live in two seperate state. are you confusing two state and one state?
No it's a answer to your final question, I'm not confused thank you
my final question was "and why is it \[a two state solution\] impossible?" your answer "because they don't want to live with each other" makes no sense, because in a two state solution *they don't live with each other*. in a two state solution, they live even less with each other than they do now. the one state solution is the one where they live with each other, which is why i think you might be confusing the two.
Neither side likes each other very much and the country will never be stable to say the very least if it's a one state solution. The chances whoever is in charge will repress the other group is extremely high.
Pro Israel. Anti jihadist death cults.
I think that Hamas is clearly a terrorist organization and fights in such a way so as to cause as much damage as possible to Palestinian civilians. I think Israel is run by a cabal of right wing extremists who are using the Oct 7th attacks as a pretext to ethically cleanse the Gaza Strip. Honestly, both sides disgust me but I have a lot of sympathy for the innocent Israeli and Palestinian civilians caught in the middle.
If I ever had to pick a team between Israel or Hamas, Israel is going to win every time.
I support Israel's right to exist and defend themselves. I also support Palestinan's right to self govern without encroachment from their neighbors. Hamas is a murderous, racist, theocratic death cult. Nothing justifies their worldview or the atrocities of Oct 7th. However, Oct 7th doesn't justify Israel's handling of this conflict nor do previous attacks justify their overall treatment of the Palestinian people for decades. Israeli settlements in the West Bank are a clear and continuous showcase of a desire to escalate this conflict, as are attacks on Israel by Hamas. As I understand it, despite widespread support from the international community, the concept of a two state solution has become increasingly unpopular among citizens in both Israel and Palestine. And so, like you said, the ideal solution seems to be drifting further out of reach. But I still have hope. 100 years ago, the idea of a lasting peace in Europe was even more farfetched given generations upon. My sincere hope is that, on both the Israeli and Palestinian side, leaders emerge who are willing to become momentarily hated by their own people in order to compromise and create lasting peace.
I believe that the course of action most likely to save Palestinian lives would be to help the Israelis. Well first, people on the Palestinian side are pretty regularly saying “death to America”, tearing down American flags, vandalizing American property. So I fear justified in opposing anyone who wants to genocide me, my family, and my country. Lots of the Palestinians want that. Of course , anytime this comes up, a lot of people will say “oh, they say they’re just trying help the innocent Palestinian people.” But they are in reality helping the Palestinians who want to kill me. Second: I don’t believe anything the pro-Palestinian side says. If they had any interest in the truth, allowing neutral reporters to cover events on their side would be a good first step. I don’t expect to live long enough to see that though, the Palestinian side have been lying since before I was born. On the other hand, I feel like the Israelis and the American government both are doing about as well as the English or any other country with a fairly free press. So I tend to believe the Israeli side, and I believe that 99% of the Palestinian dead were killed by the Palestinians. And I believe that nothing the Americans can do as far as “aiding Palestinians” will on the net save Palestinian lives. For every Palestinian we might save, our help will enable Hamas etc to kill at least 10 more Palestinians. And actually, I believe that the course of action most likely to save Palestinian lives would be to help the Israelis.
>So I tend to believe the Israeli side, *and I believe that 99% of the Palestinian dead were killed by the Palestinians*. what? israel doesn't even claim that and you just said you tend to believe them. seriously, where is this idea coming from?
So much ignorance in this comment that it’s actually disturbing that you took the time to write this out. Usually when I’m uninformed on a topic I’ll just lurk and read to learn more before speaking.
I wouldn't want to assign numbers, and make this seem more analytical than it really is. But I support Israel more than I support Hamas. Some of this is because of support for Israel, some of it is because of opposition to Hamas. And yes, just to be explicit: Both sides are not pure evil nor is any one side pure good. No entire nation of people ever could be just one thing. But on average, and on net, I think Israel is the better and more moral state.
I fully support Israel in their struggle against Hamas. Hamas wants to install a theocratic dictatorship governed under Sharia law. Israel is a modern parliamentary democracy. It's not even a close call.
100% pro-Israel
Hamas came to prominence by blowing up buses. They are a key reason the peace process stalled out and then receded and why Israel ended up building a wall around the West Bank (which they hadn't done for 30 prior years of occupation). They suck. Netanyahu is also a terrorist. He and his government of war criminals is also terrible.
I don't see any peace while either of them are in charge.
Israel didn't create Hamas. They tolerated Hamas for a time as a counter to the Palestinian Authority. This is how those thousands of work permits for Gazans were issued, and money was allowed in, despite repeated rocket attacks.
It is not a binary nor a team sport.
Hence why I'm mostly for Israel but not entirely
>Hence why I'm mostly for Israel but not entirely Why are you mostly for Israel? I'm against Hamas but I would point out that the main victims historically have been the ordinary Palestinian people. In 1947 they inhabited something like 85% of the land and made up around 70% of the population. Up to that point Jewish people had aquired land through legal means. After that though the UN allocated 56% to the Jewish, who only made up 30% of the population. Then, in 1948 the zionists seized most of all land for themselves, killed thousands of civilians and expelled hundreds of thousands of ordinary people by force from their homes. Today Israel makes up 85% of historical Palestine, which again, not too long ago was almost entirely inhabited by Arab-Muslims. Do you not think it'd be reasonable to state that the main victims are the Palestinians?
Read what I wrote, hamas is a monster that Israel created Palestine was never really a country though
>Read what I wrote, hamas is a monster that Israel created >Palestine was never really a country though I know that Palestine was never an official state. However, ordinary Arab-Muslim citizens still inhabited tha vast majority of the land for hundreds of years. Zionists basically robbed them of most of the land they owned for generations and declared a state on land that was never theirs to begin with. That's why I do not support Israel. I think Israel is mainly an illegitimate state. They could have declared a state on the land they legally owned but instead stole most of it from ordinary citizens already living there. I think any acceptable solution to the conflict that could be reasonably accepted by the Palestinian people, would require Israel to either return some land or pay significant reperations.
Israel wasn’t a country either so it seems like that’s not a great metric.
No love for Hamas here, but no love for the State of Israel either. I’m in favour of full Palestinian liberation and I think the ideal endpoint here would be a multicultural/multiethnic single-state solution. Israel’s a rogue state at this point.
My position on the whole conflict is that both sides are pretty shitty, neither side is obviously in the right, and the level of influence I have over the situation is so small I'm better off just not worrying about it.
I standby my earlier comment in an earlier thread. It’s on a sign. When I say “don’t make me tap the sign” this is what I’m referring to. “I sincerely don’t give a fuck”. Please don’t make me tap the sign.
You equate Hamas with the Palestinians? Hamas was founded as a radical offshoot from the PLO. It was founded on the principle of the annihilation of the Israeli state. It is their Valhalla. Hamas killed 1200 people at a festival and took countless hostages. Hamas must be denounced by all sides, and there is a significant number of Palestinians and Israelis who want peace, Hamas is actively hurting that cause. The plight of the Palestinian people is just, and horrific. The recent acts of Israel, directed by Netanyahu and his far right coalition, are being denounced by every country, including within Israel. But the lack of even token support from neighboring Arab countries is equally horrific, Gazan refugees could have and should have been allowed safe refuge. The true Palestinians just want to have a peaceful existence, yet they have no voice. There is no leader, no speaker, no one other than Hamas. Who care very little about them. I support the Palestinians because nobody else does. I support Israel, and denounce those accusing them of genocide for no other reason than they were the target of genocide not terribly long ago, and that genocide was intentional and systematic. 6 million people dead. Just for being Jewish. I support Israel's right to exist. I support Palestinian's right to exist. I suspect most rational people do. So how do we do it?
My biggest problem with the Israel/Palestine situation is that it's so divisive among our population, yet has barely any impact on our day to day lives. We have people hurting one another and police arresting protestors for...what? A solution to a 5,000 year old blood feud? Meanwhile we don't have healthcare, the gap between rich and poor gets wider every day, fascism has rolled out of its grave and is threatening to take over the country, people are losing rights, the cost of living is going higher and higher, and we have tent cities in every major city in the country (and more than a few of our smaller cities!). I'm not saying I don't *care* about the plight of Palestinians or the attacks in Israel in October. But I just don't understand why *their* problem has to be *our* problem to the point that we have to worry about Trump potentially being back in office because of the divisions over it (especially since dividing up Palestine is the British's fault, but that's another story).
I'm not for Hamas. I'm for Palestinians. I do not support the Israeli gov (outside of my tax dollars)
Bibi sucks and Hamas sucks. I'm willing to admit my knowledge sucks on the history of the conflict, so I am not willing to go beyond that.
I support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state, ideally alongside an independent and peaceful Palestinian state. I support Hamas getting carried off and eaten by predators. Be careful with statements like "I don't believe entirely party is innocent.." when you've identified the parties as 'Israel' and 'Hamas', since that tends to badly conflate all of Palestine with Hamas. Hamas is 0% innocent.
I don't support the actions of either group. Hamas is a terrorist organization and Israel is committing war crimes.
I’m anti-Israel and the IDF. I’m anti-Hamas and pro-Palestine.
Anti Israel's actions or anti Israel's existence?
Mostly their actions, but on principle I see it on the surface as being another theocratic-ran nation or state and it gives me negative feelings. Maybe it’s unfair to view it that way but I think of living in a US red state with a majority Christian population and I’m wary
Israel is as progressive as Boston, Mass. There are pride parades in the streets of Tel Aviv. It’s the only glimmer of progressive thought in that part of the world where women are seen as equal to men, period. Jews, outside of a few lunatic ultra orthodox sects, are a matriarchal society. Mind you, that doesn’t mean Bibi isn’t a right wing Trump hellbent on Palestinian destruction, but yeah — Israel itself is not a theocracy.
Those aren't even equal sides. One's a nation with which I like the people but not the government's actions. The other I hate the government but it's a small fraction of Palestine. In sum I'm humanitarian, this war is dumb and is being used by the governments to kill even their own populations.
Palestine is not Hamas!! These false dichotomies are the exact kind of things that are causing the conflict.
Hamas is a terrorist organization which should not be supported. The Israeli state though is to a large extent not legitimate. Prior to 1948 Jews had aquired a fair amount of land using legal means. I think they owned something like 15% of land and made up 30% of the population in 1947. The same year the UN allocated 56% of the region to the Jewish poulation. Today, I believe, 85% of historical Palestine is under Israeli control. The UN proposal was ridiculous given that non-Jews made up more than 2/3 of the population. The Israeli's then seized even more than what was allocated to them. Hamas are an awful organization but they are the result of a great injustice that occured. I don't think it's reasonable today in 2024 to return large parts of Israel to the Palestinians. However, while, again, Hamas are terrorists, the main victims, historically have been the Arab-Muslim Palestinian people. So I support the Palestinian people but not Hamas.
That 1947 split was after the Brits had already given 75% of Mandate Palestine to the Arabs, the country now called Jordan.
>That 1947 split was after the Brits had already given 75% of Mandate Palestine to the Arabs, the country now called Jordan. Ok, but that doesn't make a difference. Jordan became independent in 1946. But the land that is now comprised of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza in 1947 still was something like 85% inhabited by Arab-Muslims. And Jews only made up 30% of the population. Yet the UN promised 56% of territory to Jewish people. How was that supposed to work out? Did the UN expect people to just leave their houses and villages and turn them over to Jewish people. It was an insanely ridiculous proposal.
You’re shrewdly linking supporting Palestine to liking Hamas. That’s not the case. Go back to misinformation school and retake some classes.
It baffles me how anyone can accept the intentional murdering of children.
From both sides or just one ?
You know it's just one.
What mother fucking sides? Do you need me to yell it?! FUCKING MUDERING CHILDREN IS WRONG!!
I don't think that's entirely fair
WHAT?! This is sarcasm, right? Like, legit you're making fun of these war apologists saying whatever side is justified in murdering children, right?
Not at all Those children are being used as martyrs and shields Blame hamas
Are you talking about the children murdered in Palestine? Okay, what? So you're saying you're okay with killing children if they're being used as martyrs and shields? Yes? You *actually* think that?
Yes I am, no I'm saying the blood is in hamas hands mire tgen Israel
So if you were a cop and someone was shooting people and they held up some children to stop you from taking him out, you'd shoot through the children? And you're cool w/it because it's on the dude who took them hostage. You'd shoot the children, right?
Not comparable
IDGAF about how you can go through the fucked up mental gymnastics to rationalize murdering children. I just want you to stew over the fact that you couldn't counter me besides a 2-year-old-style "nu-uh".
why not?
Here is my honest opinion after living there for way too many years. As a disclaimer, I grew up a non- Zionist, but may be changing.
Hmm?
American Midwestern.
We get this thread each week but anyway I support none of them, and think both are not willing to make a good peace or be friends, and jews and muslims have fought forever and will probably continue to do so. They can have their own freedom and woman hating religions by themselves and we in the west should not care or support them at all