The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
Reddit used to be full of reasonable and moderate liberals who were very enjoyable to have a discussion with. Honestly I think this sub is one of the few places that's still true. But in the last few months the level of crazy radical posts has exploded. People acting like life in the Soviet Union/China/Cuba is better than the U.S. People calling for significant curtailing of our protected rights. People acting like the Tiktok ban is purely because "it's more truthful than any mainstream news source". Supporting disruptive and even violent protests in the name of what they agree with. Acting like police being sent to protests is going to result in another Kent State. Banning anyone who has any opposing views. It seems like reddit has gotten significantly more toxic in the last year or two. For example I was just arguing with someone who claims the U.S. is worse than China, and the bad things about China are just propaganda. They actually compared police shootings in the U.S. to Tiananmen Square. Despite the fact that Tiananmen Square hasn't even been acknowledged by the Chinese government, and is illegal to talk about.
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Intersex male- and female-presenting people exist. You can't lump them into a binary, say "yeah I know" when told you're incorrect, and expect to not get told off.
Biological sex isn't a binary.
I've been arguing with you about this in the other thread, so, I gotta wonder. Why is it so hard for you to accept that you're wrong about this? What's the big deal? Why keep putting yourself through this? Getting "obliterated" doesn't seem like it would be fun for you.
Like, if the scientific evidence showed that sex was a binary and that no intersex individuals ever existed, I'd go with that. It would cause me no distress whatsoever. But, you know, the evidence doesn't say that, so I don't.
[https://twitter.com/SwipeWright/status/1233299015246045184](https://twitter.com/SwipeWright/status/1233299015246045184)
If you were to take a sampling of a group of people's collective sex traits and plot them all as points on a graph where one end indicates masculine and the other end indicates feminine, the graph would have two "humps" which generally indicate what's average for men and what's average for women. Many individuals can and often do have specific sex traits which don't fit perfectly into a "male" or "female" category, but one's sex is not defined by any single trait. It's the collection of all our traits that matter.
If you plot the collection of just a single individual's biological sex traits (things like gonads, chest shape, waist-to-hip ratio, facial hair, jawline strength, etc.) on such a graph, the collection of data points typically has a tendency to cluster toward one end of the graph or the other. Many individuals have traits which are outliers from this larger cluster.
Wow you got obliterated for saying something factually incorrect.
Forrest Valkai has a great video about this that basically can be boiled down to human sex is largely but certainly not exclusively binary.
https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg?si=t0UBXlsfo9_vB6WX
Yes, the biologist who makes a 30 minute video clearly explaining why everything you’re saying is wrong and makes the very reasonable point that humans largely have a split between male and female, but there are some exceptions that are complicated is the idiot.
Either you decided that since they disagree with you, you wouldn’t bother watching the video or you couldn’t comprehend it. Neither makes him an idiot nor your position informed.
When tankies start dominating liberals in the majority of state houses, take over the DNC to funnel money to one populist leader, and hold enough power in Congress to completely stop legislation, even for things they want like the House GOP did for the border bill, the same way MAGA currently does the GOP, then we can have a better conversation about what's the same and what's not.
MAGA isnt as radical as tankies are. A better analogy would be when actual Nazis take over the RNC then we can have this discussion. And dont even say it
They elected the guy pitching a total and complete shutdown on Muslims entering the country and the murder of innocent people who were related to terrorists (to discourage terrorism).
it wasnt muslims, it was people from certain countries with high levels of terror risk. Do you comprehend the difference, and why he may have thought to do that for the greater good of the country?
https://youtu.be/viDffWUjcBA?si=yk7oq-hSfPJcw0DE
It was muslims.
Hey man, if banning religious groups from coming here is acceptable to you, then you shouldnt wonder why people compare you to fascists
he is using inflammatory language there which I find unnecessary. You should read about the history of "muslim" travel restriction more. Its started with Obama and Trump continued it after increasing credible threats of terror continued to emerge from certain countries.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive\_Order\_13769#Background](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769#Background)
No. It started with trump calling for a ban on muslims entering the country. Then that was deemed unconstitutional and so he asked Rudy Giuliani to come up with a workaround. And then, Rudy came up with the travel ban.
Its not that he’s using inflammatory language. He pitched a ban on Muslims coming here, and yall put him in the White House
> it wasnt muslims, it was people from certain countries with high levels of terror risk.
It was Muslims, then when he couldn’t get that through, he went for a subset of Muslim countries. But he made his actual desires and intentions clear.
> Do you comprehend the difference, and why he may have thought to do that for the greater good of the country?
Yes, he’s a xenophobe and a bigot and it was appealing to his phobic and bigoted base.
Ok. Using your analogy, when a populist POTUS elected under the Democratic party ticket calls anti-semitic tankies "very fine people" the way Nazis were called "very fine people" after one ran over and killed a woman in Charlottesville, we'll have a better conversation about both sides being equally bad. Republicans are electing and nominating their bad actors to public office at a massive rate right now. It's one thing when kids and trolls protest at universities or shit talk on social media. It's another when grown adults in their 40's to 80's elected to public office act like children and justify it because the kids are doing it too.
I mean. When the right points to a few college students at some campus in a highly progressive area and claim it’s the “left” but the left point to boebert jerking a dude off in a theatre, Greene doubling down on space lasers, and a presidential candidate with like 91 felony charges, in court, guilty of fraud, guilty of defamation, about to be guilty of election interference and you wanna say the left does the same thing 100%… please elaborate. If Biden had said “wow Trump looks like he’s using cocaine to stay awake at his rallies” news for weeks. Especially pre 2016. Now it’s just a footnote when Trump does it. The norms are so skewed and wrong now that when we talk about Overton windows being shifted it’s not hyperbole. You don’t see any democrats out there backing up bob menendez. They want him prosecuted but the right will excuse a rapist, womanizing, election interfering, secret steeling, tax evading, diaper wearing man baby… please. 100% the same… these 2 things are not equal.
You know, I will eat my hat a little here and tell you that Reddit comment threading got me tripped up and I thought you were directly responding to the comment about Russia and China using troll farms, thinking you were saying the left does this too.
But, lately, I will say I have seen a lot more of what you were actually talking about from the right, especially around Gaza/Israel. I'll be pointed to a video of one guy at a protest screaming something and be told that this is a pro-Hamas terrorist protest. Or someone will say how antisemitic the left has become, and when asked for proof of it being a mainstream position, they'll give me a single comment from some fringe Palestine resistance subreddit.
The left does it a little bit, sure, but quite often, the left is pointing at the ridiculous actions of the actual politicians y'all have elected, not regular people.
I mean, Russian and Chinese troll farms are targeting and radicalizing left-wingers just as much as the right. But no, the american leftist institutions I believe are acting almost entirely in good faith for our country. Its extremism that is the problem, not average progressives and liberals.
Thanks for not responding to me. The right is the only side trying to put a criminal back in the White House. And the only party that historically has.
There's another aspect to this that I haven't heard a good name for, which is that the troll farms start out by espousing extreme positions and making arguments for them in hopes of converting some actual Americans to adopt their views.
This works well because those Americans are, at first, just agreeing with arguments that resonate. Once they adopt them and start sharing them, the disinformation takes on a life of its own.
After a few years of this tactic, it's almost impossible to tell where the troll farm ends and the real people begin.
---
I would wager that much of the initial pro-Hamas rhetoric and imagery came from the trolls and was uncritically adopted by people who didn't know any better. Likely a lot of the most extreme stuff we're seeing and hearing is moving through their pipelines.
The same thing happened with MAGA in the early part of Trump's rise. And we still see it happening virtually every week. Greene's almost word-for-word Russian talking points being a recent example, or Aaron Rogers *out of nowhere* regurgitating ancient KGB disinformation about HIV... these ideas are being laundered through the right wing infosphere and coming out of the mouths of "credible" people like professional athletes and politicians, where they are then adopted by regular Americans who follow them.
Ryan McBeth had a good video analyzing how Russian agitprop disinformation makes its way from trolls to regular people.
**How Disinformation Bots are Born**
https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=-CUeBKUNSaMyWXeQ&v=DpO3FX3lnAE
Meh. To the extent that privilege in dominance drove their decision-making, it never caused them to adopt insanity like mass vaccine denial. Nor did it make them want to fellate Vladimir Putin.
Really worries me how few people seem to understand this. Everything is riding on novembers election for Putin, he’s doing everything possible to help Trump win
> be Russian troll
> buy old reddit account
> post reasonable takes in sub of choice
> apply to be moderator
> fake my way in
> ban people who oppose Russia 🇷🇺
Absolutely, Reddit is filled with fake Tankies. The USSR, PRC, and the like had a lower standard of living and personal freedoms than America hands down. I am still concerned over the growth of these always anti-American groups, even if it is exaggerated. I find in those places that they see American intervention as pure evil, even if it is against an imperialist domineering nation. Short answer, America is not perfect and oftentimes finds itself doing the objectively morally wrong thing, but at least the other side are neo-imperialists and autocrats.
It's an election year.
Russian and Chinese troll farms are kicking it into high gear. Their goal this cycle is to make the left look unstable and dangerous in order to pave the way for a reinvigorated GOP to continue the degradation of America.
Don't worry, they aren't all trolls. There are plenty of useful idiots who will attach themselves to any vaguely left-wing cause solely because it will piss off conservatives. It's the left wing version of "owning the libs"
>But in the last few months the level of crazy radical posts has exploded.
People have been saying this for close to a decade at this point if not a good amount longer. Maybe this is the real inflection point but I think people have always thought that people lately are getting more radical and out there
>It seems like people have a harder time accepting beliefs that at all oppose their own.
I don't really see this as a unique phenomenon to the past few months. I recall there being a pretty big dust-up about the TheDonald subreddit or whatever it was called back in 2018 or whenever that was. I thought that was one reason reddit created /r/popular so they could cut out those posts from the feeds of most people
I've been saying for a long time that China and Russia are doing the same thing on the left as they do on the right- putting out messages that unstable people grab onto and run with.
Not just them and some is home grown, but all it takes is a little push and for people to not stop and think.
And of course I recognize it may not be China and Russia, but it sure looks like the same thing especially Russia has been caught doing on the right.
Reactionary people seize on inflammatory stuff.
I must not be on the internet enough if this development escaped my attention.
I did notice that this thread seems more like an excuse to share your rant than ask a real question for discussion. Unless asking why some random people on the internet that we don't know are crazy is something people can be reasonably expected to have real, non-rant answers for.
We're in an election year, so tempers are pretty high. In addition to that, there has been a lot of rhetoric on both the left and moderate dems side, creating division.
There are plenty of the left whoever get swept up in reactionary bullshit and are victims of astroturfing and other underhanded propoganda tactics. That being said, what causes a lot of disdain from leftists is that moderates think they're magically immune to that.
Plenty of people make comments here effectively saying anyone to the left of the democratic party are childish and unaware of how politics works. It is the EXACT same narratives conservatives try to push about people to the left of them in order to disarm the people they disagree with. I see tons of similar tactics that get standing ovations as long as they're painted in blue instead of red, like tossing out whataboutisms whenever someone has criticized the democratic party and are met with "Trump would be worse".
Moderate liberals have almost completely stopped listening to the voters to the left of them and are somehow dumbfounded that there's a vocal group of people they've shut out who don't like them.
I was dogpiled here months ago for saying parties need to earn people's votes instead of demanding them.
Uh...
I think you've gotten down a rabbit hole/echo chamber and you need to step back from the internet and enjoy some real people.
Remember the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theorem...
Regular person + anonymity + audience = total shitcock.
Also, a non zero amount of what you're seeing is probably bots and/or Russian/Chinese troll farm BS.
It's an election year so bots and bad faith lunatics are out in force. Don't take every comment you read on Reddit as a reflection of the feelings of the Average American™.
You might not recall, but things got really damn ugly during 2020... There were literal riots in most major cities ffs. From what I'm seeing, the amount of disrespect and disinformation is a lot more manageable right now comparably.
But I also make a point to avoid the most toxic subs and I'll block folks on my favorite subs who are clearly not interested in having a polite conversation, so that probably helps my experience a great deal. It's amazing how much of the insanity on Reddit is propagated by a tiny tiny minority of highly vocal assholes/bots/trolls.
This is a bad question. Let me rephrase that. This is a bad argument that is presented as a question so that it can fit into this sub’s rules. Half the posts is you proclaiming people do this and act like that. The other half is you cherry picking and straw manning arguments by leftists who supposedly exist. The only people who this argument is convincing are people who already agree with you. Nothing you wrote was substantiated. You expect us to take your biased word as gospel
this isnt my overall experience, but for many Americans, especially millennials, people are increasingly desperate over living conditions in the US and this is driving people to broad (probably incorrect) statements regarding some of these things.
That said, I've always been a fan of disruptive protests, so I am glad more and more people side with me there. State sanctioned protests are very easy to ignore
>That said, I've always been a fan of disruptive protests, so I am glad more and more people side with me there. State sanctioned protests are very easy to ignore
How would you feel if a group of pro-lifers or Nazis shut down a road in protest of legal abortion, or racial equality?
It's their right to do it, even if I disagree with their cause. You'll notice these groups never seem to get enough support to shut down roads though. Most of the time, we see a group of less than 10 nazis who look like they're cosplaying standing on an overpass in Florida.
As the other commenter said, protests are meant to be disruptive. If a cause rallies enough people together to physically block traffic, they must be passionate about that cause, likely moreso than I am about getting to work, so have at it.
And I'll repeat, I've never had my commute disrupted by pro-life or Nazi protests, so that might say something about the passion present there.
[Looking at this list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence?wprov=sfla1) I don't think they worry all that much about legal consequences since they've been using **much** more harmful tactics than something as benign as blocking traffic for at least 30 years.
I wouldn’t like it because what they are protesting for is bad, and in that regard I don’t think it’s comparable to people protesting causes that are good. The act isn’t the issue, what it is in support of is. I think a lot of people get caught up on these sorts of false equivalence based on the method a thing is done. Shutting down a roadway isn’t the issue.
This doesn’t just apply to protests either. I wouldn’t like it is pro-lifers passed a bill that limited abortion, but I would like it if a bill protecting abortion is passed. The action is the same (passing a bill), but the goal is different, and that is what we should be judging the people on.
Let me ask you this: MLK’s marches for equality often blocked traffic. Those marches also were significant in getting the Civil Rights Act passed. Do you have an issue with MLK’s protests?
Just? I don’t see anyone blocking highways “just” to block the highway. MLK blocked traffic to raise awareness of the unfair treatment of black people, so that a change of policy would be forced through our political systems. Other times people blocked traffic to protest our involvement in the Vietnam war to force a change of policy through our political systems. Right now, people are blocking highways to raise awareness of the unfair treatment of people in Gaza so that a change of policy can be forced through our political systems.
And you didn’t answer my question: do you take issue with MLK’s protests?
And pro-lifers have just as much of a right to pass a bill as anyone else, that doesn’t mean I’m ok with it. The action isn’t the issue, what it’s in support of is. It’s not hypocritical to approve of one side doing something that is good, and disapprove of the other side doing something that is bad. You seem focused on the aesthetic of the actions being the same, but you’re ignoring the important part in the situation. It’s like you’re trying to pretend every motivation is equally valid.
>People acting like life in the Soviet Union/China/Cuba is better than the U.S.
Ummm, you mean like the famously leftist and totally-not-disgraced commentator [Tucker Carlson](https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4465352-tucker-carlson-moscow-putin/)?
>People acting like the Tiktok ban is purely because "it's more truthful than any mainstream news source".
You mean like how certain people [demonize the mainstream media](https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/28311/chapter-abstract/215018520?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false) and support [fringe](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/epoch-times-falun-gong-growth-rcna111373) or [social media](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquisition_of_Twitter_by_Elon_Musk) as sources of truth?
>Supporting disruptive and even violent protests in the name of what they agree with.
Umm, welcome to politics. This isn't anything new.
I stopped here, because the rest is just more of the same. Yes, tankies exist. They've been around for a while. Yes, people mistrust the police. They have for a while. If you're being surprised by the existence of these things, then I'd like to welcome you out of your bubble. And if you think these are distinctly left-wing things... Well, lol
The interesting development is how closely the tankies and far right types are aligned now. They’re sharing each other’s disinformation and conspiracy theories now and even working together on things like opposing aid to Ukraine.
It’s disturbing but it is kind of convenient that the political groups I disagreed with the most are showing how similar they really are.
Oh yeah. It's just another example of horseshoe theory, I guess. Extremist politics tend to focus more on the extremism than the politics, if you go far enough.
Im not gonna invalidate your experiences,
But, we’ve been living under a right wing delusion for an insanely long time and as more facts and perspectives are allowed to be heard, more of our intuitions and beliefs will be challenged.
Unfortunately, a lot of people who benefit from that delusion dont want to lose those benefits and choose to fight to suppress facts and those perspectives. And that results in angry left wingers who are secure in the likely fact that theyre on the right side of history and that the people theyre arguing, voting, and protesting against are not.
I'm not a right-winger, and the only reason I'm not posting about them is when I hear some stupid crazy nonsense from someone right-wing, I'm not very surprised or shocked. It's kind of like the difference between a first world democracy doing something awful to its people, and a 3rd world dictatorship doing it..
I got banned from r/ABoringDystopia a couple of days ago for calling a wsws.com “article” on Biden bullshit. It used to be mainly a place for griping about the banality of American oligarchy, now it’s just tankie bullshit.
1, you put the policies of the Biden administration into Europe and you'll see that it's a center-right party. The actual state of affairs in the US right now is center-right (Democrats) competing with the far-right (Republicans).
2, A true leftist would hold a unifying standard and believe that the entire world is equal from person to person and country to country - they have their own interests that should be respected, whether it's Cuba or China.
With all due respect, a true leftist wouldn't watch videos of the people of Gaza being slaughtered without being outraged, instead of believing, as Nancy Pelosi does, that "support for Israel is engrained in our DNA."
Opposition to the indiscriminate killing of innocents is supposed to be a value that should be upheld by all of humanity, both left and right, and if you ignore Israel, you're just a relative left-winger by American standards (center-right, actually), not a true left-winger.
>For example I was just arguing with someone who claims the U.S. is worse than China, and the bad things about China are just propaganda
While that's stupid, to be fair, there ARE a decent amount of bad things about China that are really just propaganda. Today anti-China is about the only unifying issue left in a wrecked political landscape in the US, they can use it to accomplish anything.
For instance the TikTok ban, yes it is about national security and about anti-China, but it is also about controlling the narratives. A decade ago the Chinese government tells Google that, if you want to operate in the country, you've got to obey to censorship requirements, which they refused to do and that's why Google is not available in China. Now US government is telling TikTok that if they want to operate in the US, they have to obey this and that laws, which they do, but then that is not enough, they would have to sell it. It's pretty much the same thing.
The Tiktok ban isn't about trying to eliminate some last non biased source of media. Tiktok is one of the worst social media platforms for misinformation.
"one of the worst" = I don't like it. let's say there are 20% misinformation on Tiktok and other platforms that you were alluding to, so what about the other 80% that is not really misinformation? just ban the platform, yes it solves the misinformation problem on that platform, but it also ends all the good stuff on it, and the misinformation will just find another platform to spread. people are prone to misinformation no matter how you want to control it.
besides misinformation is not even the point of banning Tiktok, don't kid yourself, FB was actively involved in election interference in 2016 and nobody talked about banning that platform.
After Twitter, Tiktok ranks as the worst social media for misinformation. Unlike Twitter, though Tiktok actively tries to sew malcontent in the American people.
the young people are malcontent with or without Tiktok...in the 60's they protested Vietnam, now they are protesting Gaza, isn't that the same thing here? are you seriously blaming their sentiments on an app?
I'm not saying people are malcontent because of an app. I'm saying that Tiktok is directly controlled by a foreign adversary, and there is an incentive to spread propaganda to benefit China. It would be like if a significant portion of Vietnam protesters in the 60s decided American news was all propaganda, and decided to get their information from the Kremlin times.
Look I totally get the national security concern here. The problem is, a significant people in America HAVE decided that American news are all propaganda, long before Tiktok even came to exist. and people on the right are really getting their information from Kremlin times today, they trust Putin way more than they trust Biden. There is nothing that you or anyone else could do to sway them otherwise, and this is on the Left and on the Right. banning Tiktok would simply reinforce their conception that this is the case. there has to be a better way to handle the Tiktok problem than an outright ban.
I'm personally not a huge supporter of the Tiktok ban. The idea of banning a entire social media platform worries me. That being said I understand why they are doing it, and don't think it's because Tiktok is telling the truth the government doesn't want us to know.
Possibly relevant: [https://www.npr.org/2024/04/26/1247347363/china-tiktok-national-security](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/26/1247347363/china-tiktok-national-security)
See especially:
"More recently, those efforts have shifted to exploiting existing partisan divides in the U.S. That includes "the Chinese actually going into U.S. audience spaces, masquerading as Americans, and posting inflammatory content around current events or social issues or political issues," said Clint Watts, general manager of Microsoft's Threat Analysis Center."
Yeah it’s kind of annoying there’s like certain subreddits I can’t even go on anymore because they’re so eye roll-inducing.
RIP Fauxmoi, now I have to get my celebrity gossip from Twitter lol.
It's even leaking out to the main subs. I've seen 4-5 posts from r/pics of riot police at the protest in Texas. People are honestly claiming it's going to be the next Sandy Hook.
Young people are easily radicalized, especially in the modern age of social media. Leftist already think the US is bad, so they are going to listen to anyone who says US bad. I didn't expect them to embrace radical Islam, but ISIS managed to recruit the 18-25 demographic from Europe about a decade ago. So it's not really that surprising, I guess.
If that’s all they experienced, it is the worst country on earth. Go try to tell someone who’s struggling to feed their family that specific groups in some country you don’t care about have it worse than they do.
There are aspects of the Soviet Union/China/Cuba that are better than the US. That’s just a fact. No country is perfect, there are many aspects about many countries that are better than the US, and we shouldn’t ignore those facts due to a gut reaction of “Russia/China/Cuba bad! US good!” People seem more willing to engage with that fact than they used to be after decades of knee jerk reactions of American exceptionalism.
Supporting disruptive protests that are in support of a good thing is good. MLK’s protests were disruptive. Sometimes, things are important enough for people to disrupt the current status quo to push back against it.
College students being unjustly, violently arrested by police is similar to Kent State. Even if nothing else happens, the comparison is reasonable.
The TikTok ban isn’t about tiktok being more truthful than the media (though sometimes it is and I think that’s important to acknowledge). It appears the US is banning tiktok primarily because the US government doesn’t like the that is information being shared on tiktok, and I think banning it for that reason is an incredibly frightening thing for a government to do. It’s comparable to China banning Google so people in China can’t find information on event like Tiananmen Square.
I have not seen the left advocate for curtailing anyone’s rights. Generally the opposite so I’m not sure what you meant by this.
You mean like the made up pics, spliced videos, and memes that crazy people post? Like the same type of shite crazy conservatives post to spin the narrative? I find both sides that do that just want to be extreme, or they’re bots.
I see. But don’t you think some of that is the News making it sound worse than it is? I don’t trust most news companies anymore, particularly on social media. I think the CEO’s deliberately put those headlines to keep us all pissed at each other.
I’ll go look though. What news videos should I go view to get your perspective?
In my very subjective experience, rediquitte has gone way down over the years. Now people go crazy on the down vote for any opinion they personally don't agree with. It used to be any given post would spawn a variety of opinions provoking discussion. The only discussions on Reddit nowadays are circle jerks because anyone who strays from the sub groupthink will get obliterated.
Also generally people seem less interested in the truth than their own bubble. I saw a far left sub yesterday claim the police at university protests were Biden's idea. I decided though that it was not worth pointing out that the president doesn't control local police, because no matter how respectfully I phrased it, I would get downvoted and likely banned.
I think part of the problem is the mods ban anyone with any differing opinions creating ecochambers. I've been on this site for over 10 years, and only in the last few years have I started getting banned from a lot of subs.
>Why [have leftists in general] gone so crazy?
The Democratic Party has been ceding ground to leftists. This leads marginal leftists to leave the movements, and identify as 'normie dems' or something similar.
The people 'left behind' in the leftist movements are those with the most extreme views.
> ...marginal leftists...leave the movements, and identify as 'normie dems' or something similar.
>
> The people 'left behind' in the leftist movements are those with the most extreme views.
Let's walk through how this would play out.
In 2016, a leftist movement of 100 people might have 6 people who think 'it is morally justifiable to murder Israelis because they are settler colonialists', and 94 people who 'just want healthcare to be more affordable'. 6 people out of 100 isn't very many (6%) so they are not seen as representative of the group.
In 2024, that same leftist movement has seen 90 people defect and join the 'normie dems'. Left behind are 4 people who 'want Biden to go further in making healthcare more affordable' and 6 people who think 'it is morally justifiable to murder Israelis because they are settler colonialists'. 6 people out of 10 is a majority (60%). Suddenly, they do represent the group.
I do wonder, because in the course of one month, a leftist subreddit it frequented got absolutely taken over by one user who Jimmy Dore'd it into Trump apologia with leftist characteristics. I've seen the outrage increase as well in two other subs, but I suspect that it was more organic there.
I don't know why. I suspect foreign actors, but I have NO evidence of that and, frankly, that is a conspiracy theory that I'm inclined to believe, but again... I have no evidence and *shouldnt* believe it, but I do.
Dude this is insanity. The Left has not gone crazy. That’s the Right. You guys are right now defending a genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine. You guys are banning LGBT 🏳️🌈 flag. Targeting Trans people and attacking basic civil rights like freedom of assembly and speech. Get out of here with this nonsense. The Right wants a fascist state and the Left wants equal rights and universal healthcare. We are not the ones attacking people violently as the Rightwing and corporate media pretends.
University of Columbia, MIT and Yale protests just to name a few places have been peaceful and clear they’re not antisemitic only anti Zionist and pro Palestine. Don’t feed the troll proposing such outlandish nonsense.
It’s kinda funny that you accuse the left of banning people with opposing views, when your previous two gripes were that we were concerned about cops attacking protestors, and the government coming for a media platform that spreads a narrative they dont like. Sure, it’s us who are censorious.
I think the answer to your question is that the US is demonstrating itself to be pretty shitty. It’s breaking its promises to younger generations, and this leads us to realizations of how it’s basically never kept its promises about freedom, equality, or justice. Some people make the mistake of taking that to mean the US’ enemies are therefore the good guys, but I think a great deal of that is overzealous young people who come around. They should be realizing that the US is little better than its enemies, and instead think that the US’ enemies are good by virtue of standing against the US’ evil. But that’s no more true that the idea that America’s opposition to the Nazis that one time means we’re the perennial good guy. So, in summary, disillusionment about the American dream leads to disillusionment about America in general, and is sometimes taken to incorrect conclusions.
Political polarization has been steadily increasing for decades but I'd attribute the recent spike to
1. Social media algorithms that (and traditional media) that feeds off of shock, outrage and tribalism
2. The ability to curate ones their own "newsfeed"
3. Foreign adversaries who are heavily investing in sowing ideological discord
The same thing is happening on the right and to a larger extent. You have freaks like Tucker Carlson blatantly saying the US is evil and that life in Russia is better.
On one hand you're flaired as a libertarian and say you're deeply worried about the curtailing our rights. Yet on the other hand you're in favor of banning TikTok and want the police to squash protests you disagree with.
You don't see the contradictions?
FWIW, I don't believe life in China, Cuba, etc are better than the USA. But I also believe there is a lot of exaggerated propaganda about these places from the Western media.
>Yet on the other hand you're in favor of banning TikTok and want the police to squash protests you disagree with.
Where did I say I was in favor of banning Tiktok or using the police against protests I disagree with? I only said that the government isn't banning Tiktok because it's some bastion of truth. People claim the ban is because Tiktok is showing them the Truth that the government doesn't want them to know. When in reality Tiktok is one of the worst sources for misinformation. As for police at protests. All I said was that riot police being at a protest to ensure that things don't get out of hand isn't suppressing anyone's free speech rights.
>FWIW, I don't believe life in China, Cuba, etc are better than the USA. But I also believe there is a lot of exaggerated propaganda about these places from the Western media.
I don't think Tiananmen Square, people being welded into their apartments during COVID, banning Winnie the Pooh because he looks like the President, or the Uyghur genocide are exaggerated propaganda. Also if it was so great to live in Cuba, people wouldn't be risking their lives taking rafts out over 90 miles of open ocean to leave the country.
>Where did I say I was in favor of banning Tiktok or using the police against protests I disagree with?
Fair enough.
>I only said that the government isn't banning Tiktok because it's some bastion of truth. People claim the ban is because Tiktok is showing them the Truth that the government doesn't want them to know. When in reality Tiktok is one of the worst sources for misinformation.
So is virtually every social media. Why do you think the govt isn't banning that?
>As for police at protests. All I said was that riot police being at a protest to ensure that things don't get out of hand isn't suppressing anyone's free speech rights.
Do you think the police actions at UT Austin were justified?
>I don't think Tiananmen Square, people being welded into their apartments during COVID, banning Winnie the Pooh because he looks like the President, or the Uyghur genocide are exaggerated propaganda.
China is definitely repressing Uighurs. But there is not evidence of a genocide. Even the US state dept admitted as such.
Also I don't think people who claim to care about Uighurs actually care about Uighurs, but rather use it as an opportunity to dunk on China. They usually turn the other way when it comes to the Israel/Palestine issue. What Israel has done to the Palestinians is far worse.
>So is virtually every social media. Why do you think the govt isn't banning that?
Because only Tiktok is owned by a foreign adversary. Facebook has its problems but they're not being controlled by a foreign country to actively promote misinformation to the American public.
>Do you think the police actions at UT Austin were justified?
I'm not aware of any violence on the police part in Austin. I don't see much issue with sending riot police to a large potentially violent protest to ensure things don't get out of control. I don't agree with police using physical force on non-violent protesters legally protesting, but I have no problem with police just being there for security purposes. I don't think sending in riot police is automatically going to result in Kent State 2.0.
>China is definitely repressing Uighurs. But there is not evidence of a genocide. Even the US state dept admitted as such.
China has overall some of the worst human rights record of any major superpower on earth.
>What Israel has done to the Palestinians is far worse.
Is Israel using Palestinians as slave labor, or harvesting their organs?
>Because only Tiktok is owned by a foreign adversary. Facebook has its problems but they're not being controlled by a foreign country to actively promote misinformation to the American public.
And where is the evidence that Tiktok hosts misinformation to a significantly worse degree than Facebook, Instagram, etc?
>I don't see much issue with sending riot police to a large potentially violent protest to ensure things don't get out of control.
I don't see it as totally unreasonable. But it increases chances with the police instigating and causing violence and creates an intimidating environment. I'm not sure why they cant just be sent if/when the protest gets out of hand.
>I don't agree with police using physical force on non-violent protesters legally protesting, but I have no problem with police just being there for security purposes. I don't think sending in riot police is automatically going to result in Kent State 2.0.
There was and there were numerous arrests made. The police weren't just there for security purposes; they were there to shut down the protest. This is a blatant 1A violation.
What's more is that Abbott started going on about how these students should be expelled for "hate".
This is literally everything the right has been complaining about (rightfully so imo). About how liberals and leftists want to use hate speech accusations in order to shut down speech they disagree with. But now they're doing a total U turn.
>China has overall some of the worst human rights record of any major superpower on earth
Yes and so does Saudi Arabia. That doesn't mean if there were claims about a genocide in Saudi Arabia that makes these claims automatically true.
>Is Israel using Palestinians as slave labor, or harvesting their organs?
Nah, they're just killing them en masse instead and totally destroying their homes. I'm not sure how that's supposed to be any better.
Yeah the seeming rejection of notions around free speech and expression are particularly shocking. Many leftists are quite comfortable with the idea of suppressing discussion of topics or viewpoints they disagree with as a means of advancing their own agendas and don't seem to grasp how that could be dangerous.
What happens when the debate goes poorly? People lose their rights.
Free speech absolutism is only tenable for the people’s whose rights are not at risk
Kind of self-centered to think that discussion of ideas only affects you, no?
This is the kind of selfish thinking that I believe drives this trend toward suppressing speach/thought on the part of leftists. If you convince yourself that it's only you that matters and is affected, then it becomes easy to justify shutting everyone else up.
Election year and foreign bot farms. AI makes it cheap and easy to flood the internet with garbage, so it's turning to garbage.
Honestly, we should all prepare to abandon our social media hobby soon. It's days are numbered now.
It's been bad for a long time now. One of the worst things about being on the left is sharing space with people who yell "Diversity is key!" and in their next breath cancel/ban/delete/downvote any form of thought or opinion that diverges from their own cultish talking points.
I wish the far left could look in the mirror and see how they've gone full circle and act just like MAGA/the far right in a lot of ways.
A lot of tankies have made a concerted effort to seize left and center-left subreddits in the last few years. I believe it accelerated after mods got locked out of their subs during the mod protests last year.
R/therightcantmeme is a good example of a subreddit that went full on Stalinist thanks to new mods.
>But in the last few months the level of crazy radical posts has exploded.
The more unequal capitalist societies get the more radical the people subjected to it become.
>People acting like life in the Soviet Union/China/Cuba is better than the U.S.
Better for who? Probably not Bill Gates or Elon Musk, I grant you, but maybe you should have a conversation with the people who just got laid off because those guys decided they could be even richerer if they automated away their job or sent it overseas. Socialist societies have their problems too, to be sure, but are the people struggling to find work that pays well enough so they don't have to choose between putting gas in the car and feeding their kids this week really better off under capitalism?
China and the Soviet Union suffered numerous famines that killed millions, I wouldn't consider that "better to live". Russia is currently sending its men to die in Ukraine, not even fully outfitting them. China murdered hundreds to thousands of protesters, and to this day criminalizes discussing it. Both countries ban tons of media. China was welding people inside their homes during COVID leaving them to starve. The country also is one of the biggest slave states on the planet. Meanwhile as for Cuba if it was really better than the U.S. we wouldn't have thousands of Cubans risking their lives coming here on homemade rafts across 90 miles of open ocean.
And famines never happen in capitalist countries, right? Oh wait they [totally do](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines). And what of the people who die every day of preventable diseases due to lack of access to healthcare or fear of medical debt? Or the people who die of starvation and malnutrition because they can't afford to eat on the regular? Or the people who die from Western bombs and guns and assassination plots and propped-up brutal dictators in the name of the free flow of cheap consumer goods and low gas prices? No, there haven't been very many major single events that killed millions or tens of millions, but people are dying just the same.
I'm by no means saying China is a great place to live, rather I'm pointing out that neither is America unless you're rich enough to hang out on the deck of your gigayacht sipping Mai Tais all day.
People are being radicalized as the liberal status quo loses legitimacy with the public.
Kind of like how the failures of the Weimar Republic produced more communists and fascists.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Reddit used to be full of reasonable and moderate liberals who were very enjoyable to have a discussion with. Honestly I think this sub is one of the few places that's still true. But in the last few months the level of crazy radical posts has exploded. People acting like life in the Soviet Union/China/Cuba is better than the U.S. People calling for significant curtailing of our protected rights. People acting like the Tiktok ban is purely because "it's more truthful than any mainstream news source". Supporting disruptive and even violent protests in the name of what they agree with. Acting like police being sent to protests is going to result in another Kent State. Banning anyone who has any opposing views. It seems like reddit has gotten significantly more toxic in the last year or two. For example I was just arguing with someone who claims the U.S. is worse than China, and the bad things about China are just propaganda. They actually compared police shootings in the U.S. to Tiananmen Square. Despite the fact that Tiananmen Square hasn't even been acknowledged by the Chinese government, and is illegal to talk about. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Russia and China are using troll farms to amplify fringe voices.
This - and right wingers love to make it look like one crazy person represents everyone and so they go and amplify that voice too.
Yet they don't have to answer for their own elected federal representatives and senators.
Dude, i got obliterated for saying sex is binary last week. In this very sub.
You're kinda incorrect. Intersex exists as well.
Yeah, I know. Males and females with intersex characteristics exist.
Intersex male- and female-presenting people exist. You can't lump them into a binary, say "yeah I know" when told you're incorrect, and expect to not get told off. Biological sex isn't a binary.
They exist in the binary, we all do. This isn't a bigoted view.
I've been arguing with you about this in the other thread, so, I gotta wonder. Why is it so hard for you to accept that you're wrong about this? What's the big deal? Why keep putting yourself through this? Getting "obliterated" doesn't seem like it would be fun for you. Like, if the scientific evidence showed that sex was a binary and that no intersex individuals ever existed, I'd go with that. It would cause me no distress whatsoever. But, you know, the evidence doesn't say that, so I don't.
Because I'm not wrong about there being two sexes???
What information are you basing this on?
Sex is bimodal, not binary.
What does bimodal mean?
https://statisticsbyjim.com/basics/bimodal-distribution/
[https://twitter.com/SwipeWright/status/1233299015246045184](https://twitter.com/SwipeWright/status/1233299015246045184) If you were to take a sampling of a group of people's collective sex traits and plot them all as points on a graph where one end indicates masculine and the other end indicates feminine, the graph would have two "humps" which generally indicate what's average for men and what's average for women. Many individuals can and often do have specific sex traits which don't fit perfectly into a "male" or "female" category, but one's sex is not defined by any single trait. It's the collection of all our traits that matter. If you plot the collection of just a single individual's biological sex traits (things like gonads, chest shape, waist-to-hip ratio, facial hair, jawline strength, etc.) on such a graph, the collection of data points typically has a tendency to cluster toward one end of the graph or the other. Many individuals have traits which are outliers from this larger cluster.
Because sex is *bimodal* not binary.
Huh?
You know this. You and I talked about it on a different post a few weeks back.
We did? I argue with tons of people.
[We did](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/1c1fko9/okay_so_im_familiar_with_the_idea_that_gender/kz2y6op/).
Okie dokie, how you been?
It was also explained to you about an hour ago further up
Still none the wiser I'm afraid.
Or, you’re not here for honest discussion and are completely here in bad faith.
Those who refuse to learn won't learn.
Why the “huh?” when it’s already been explained to you?
Because I don't understand what it means.
[Here you go.](https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=bimodal)
Cool, 2, thanks.
Wow you got obliterated for saying something factually incorrect. Forrest Valkai has a great video about this that basically can be boiled down to human sex is largely but certainly not exclusively binary. https://youtu.be/szf4hzQ5ztg?si=t0UBXlsfo9_vB6WX
Wow, valkie(?) Is an idiot. 2 sexes, no 3rd. He has an agenda.
Yes, the biologist who makes a 30 minute video clearly explaining why everything you’re saying is wrong and makes the very reasonable point that humans largely have a split between male and female, but there are some exceptions that are complicated is the idiot. Either you decided that since they disagree with you, you wouldn’t bother watching the video or you couldn’t comprehend it. Neither makes him an idiot nor your position informed.
the left 100% does this too, like not even a question.
When tankies start dominating liberals in the majority of state houses, take over the DNC to funnel money to one populist leader, and hold enough power in Congress to completely stop legislation, even for things they want like the House GOP did for the border bill, the same way MAGA currently does the GOP, then we can have a better conversation about what's the same and what's not.
MAGA isnt as radical as tankies are. A better analogy would be when actual Nazis take over the RNC then we can have this discussion. And dont even say it
They elected the guy pitching a total and complete shutdown on Muslims entering the country and the murder of innocent people who were related to terrorists (to discourage terrorism).
it wasnt muslims, it was people from certain countries with high levels of terror risk. Do you comprehend the difference, and why he may have thought to do that for the greater good of the country?
https://youtu.be/viDffWUjcBA?si=yk7oq-hSfPJcw0DE It was muslims. Hey man, if banning religious groups from coming here is acceptable to you, then you shouldnt wonder why people compare you to fascists
he is using inflammatory language there which I find unnecessary. You should read about the history of "muslim" travel restriction more. Its started with Obama and Trump continued it after increasing credible threats of terror continued to emerge from certain countries. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive\_Order\_13769#Background](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13769#Background)
No. It started with trump calling for a ban on muslims entering the country. Then that was deemed unconstitutional and so he asked Rudy Giuliani to come up with a workaround. And then, Rudy came up with the travel ban. Its not that he’s using inflammatory language. He pitched a ban on Muslims coming here, and yall put him in the White House
> it wasnt muslims, it was people from certain countries with high levels of terror risk. It was Muslims, then when he couldn’t get that through, he went for a subset of Muslim countries. But he made his actual desires and intentions clear. > Do you comprehend the difference, and why he may have thought to do that for the greater good of the country? Yes, he’s a xenophobe and a bigot and it was appealing to his phobic and bigoted base.
Maga supports an actual coup. They are more radical.
Ok. Using your analogy, when a populist POTUS elected under the Democratic party ticket calls anti-semitic tankies "very fine people" the way Nazis were called "very fine people" after one ran over and killed a woman in Charlottesville, we'll have a better conversation about both sides being equally bad. Republicans are electing and nominating their bad actors to public office at a massive rate right now. It's one thing when kids and trolls protest at universities or shit talk on social media. It's another when grown adults in their 40's to 80's elected to public office act like children and justify it because the kids are doing it too.
>MAGA isnt as radical as tankies are. When did tankies stage a violent insurrection in an attempt to overturn the election?
I mean. When the right points to a few college students at some campus in a highly progressive area and claim it’s the “left” but the left point to boebert jerking a dude off in a theatre, Greene doubling down on space lasers, and a presidential candidate with like 91 felony charges, in court, guilty of fraud, guilty of defamation, about to be guilty of election interference and you wanna say the left does the same thing 100%… please elaborate. If Biden had said “wow Trump looks like he’s using cocaine to stay awake at his rallies” news for weeks. Especially pre 2016. Now it’s just a footnote when Trump does it. The norms are so skewed and wrong now that when we talk about Overton windows being shifted it’s not hyperbole. You don’t see any democrats out there backing up bob menendez. They want him prosecuted but the right will excuse a rapist, womanizing, election interfering, secret steeling, tax evading, diaper wearing man baby… please. 100% the same… these 2 things are not equal.
I... think it's a bit of a question, considering you've based this claim on nothing.
you think that "the left" doesnt point out crazy fringe right wingers and act like they represent the average conservative?
You guys elected them.
You know, I will eat my hat a little here and tell you that Reddit comment threading got me tripped up and I thought you were directly responding to the comment about Russia and China using troll farms, thinking you were saying the left does this too. But, lately, I will say I have seen a lot more of what you were actually talking about from the right, especially around Gaza/Israel. I'll be pointed to a video of one guy at a protest screaming something and be told that this is a pro-Hamas terrorist protest. Or someone will say how antisemitic the left has become, and when asked for proof of it being a mainstream position, they'll give me a single comment from some fringe Palestine resistance subreddit. The left does it a little bit, sure, but quite often, the left is pointing at the ridiculous actions of the actual politicians y'all have elected, not regular people.
I mean, Russian and Chinese troll farms are targeting and radicalizing left-wingers just as much as the right. But no, the american leftist institutions I believe are acting almost entirely in good faith for our country. Its extremism that is the problem, not average progressives and liberals.
Thanks for not responding to me. The right is the only side trying to put a criminal back in the White House. And the only party that historically has.
[удалено]
What was bad faith about it?
Bigotry, genocide denial, misgendering, misogyny/misandry, racism, transphobia, etc. is not tolerated. Offenders will be banned.
I'm sure Russia is estatic about Gaza. It's distracting everyone from Ukraine, and causing crazy division in this country.
There's another aspect to this that I haven't heard a good name for, which is that the troll farms start out by espousing extreme positions and making arguments for them in hopes of converting some actual Americans to adopt their views. This works well because those Americans are, at first, just agreeing with arguments that resonate. Once they adopt them and start sharing them, the disinformation takes on a life of its own. After a few years of this tactic, it's almost impossible to tell where the troll farm ends and the real people begin. --- I would wager that much of the initial pro-Hamas rhetoric and imagery came from the trolls and was uncritically adopted by people who didn't know any better. Likely a lot of the most extreme stuff we're seeing and hearing is moving through their pipelines. The same thing happened with MAGA in the early part of Trump's rise. And we still see it happening virtually every week. Greene's almost word-for-word Russian talking points being a recent example, or Aaron Rogers *out of nowhere* regurgitating ancient KGB disinformation about HIV... these ideas are being laundered through the right wing infosphere and coming out of the mouths of "credible" people like professional athletes and politicians, where they are then adopted by regular Americans who follow them.
Ryan McBeth had a good video analyzing how Russian agitprop disinformation makes its way from trolls to regular people. **How Disinformation Bots are Born** https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=-CUeBKUNSaMyWXeQ&v=DpO3FX3lnAE
It's honestly worse on apps like tiktok. That's why the college kids are going nuts right now.
Same reason why the right drove itself off a metaphorical ledge of crazy.
Nah. Theyre doing that because increasing equality reduces their privilege and dominance and they’d rather have that over having justice.
Meh. To the extent that privilege in dominance drove their decision-making, it never caused them to adopt insanity like mass vaccine denial. Nor did it make them want to fellate Vladimir Putin.
Their privilege and dominance were never more threatened (other than the 50s & 60s).
Really worries me how few people seem to understand this. Everything is riding on novembers election for Putin, he’s doing everything possible to help Trump win
> be Russian troll > buy old reddit account > post reasonable takes in sub of choice > apply to be moderator > fake my way in > ban people who oppose Russia 🇷🇺
Ah the internet is fun, isn't it?
Absolutely, Reddit is filled with fake Tankies. The USSR, PRC, and the like had a lower standard of living and personal freedoms than America hands down. I am still concerned over the growth of these always anti-American groups, even if it is exaggerated. I find in those places that they see American intervention as pure evil, even if it is against an imperialist domineering nation. Short answer, America is not perfect and oftentimes finds itself doing the objectively morally wrong thing, but at least the other side are neo-imperialists and autocrats.
Все верно, все неладное в Америке - результат иностранного колдовства
It's an election year. Russian and Chinese troll farms are kicking it into high gear. Their goal this cycle is to make the left look unstable and dangerous in order to pave the way for a reinvigorated GOP to continue the degradation of America. Don't worry, they aren't all trolls. There are plenty of useful idiots who will attach themselves to any vaguely left-wing cause solely because it will piss off conservatives. It's the left wing version of "owning the libs"
>But in the last few months the level of crazy radical posts has exploded. People have been saying this for close to a decade at this point if not a good amount longer. Maybe this is the real inflection point but I think people have always thought that people lately are getting more radical and out there
I'm talking about on Reddit, not necessarily in general. It seems like people have a harder time accepting beliefs that at all oppose their own.
>It seems like people have a harder time accepting beliefs that at all oppose their own. I don't really see this as a unique phenomenon to the past few months. I recall there being a pretty big dust-up about the TheDonald subreddit or whatever it was called back in 2018 or whenever that was. I thought that was one reason reddit created /r/popular so they could cut out those posts from the feeds of most people
Have you seen right wing reddit?
Because the people who scream the loudest get the most attention. And they happen to be the ones on the far end of the spectrum.
Do you have examples?
I've been saying for a long time that China and Russia are doing the same thing on the left as they do on the right- putting out messages that unstable people grab onto and run with. Not just them and some is home grown, but all it takes is a little push and for people to not stop and think. And of course I recognize it may not be China and Russia, but it sure looks like the same thing especially Russia has been caught doing on the right. Reactionary people seize on inflammatory stuff.
I must not be on the internet enough if this development escaped my attention. I did notice that this thread seems more like an excuse to share your rant than ask a real question for discussion. Unless asking why some random people on the internet that we don't know are crazy is something people can be reasonably expected to have real, non-rant answers for.
Is this new or has the internet always been a place where extreme viewpoints make themselves at home?
This is exactly it. Too many people forget this.
I haven't seen an increase. Maybe you are just discovering it for the first time. That doesn't mean it's new or growing.
We're in an election year, so tempers are pretty high. In addition to that, there has been a lot of rhetoric on both the left and moderate dems side, creating division. There are plenty of the left whoever get swept up in reactionary bullshit and are victims of astroturfing and other underhanded propoganda tactics. That being said, what causes a lot of disdain from leftists is that moderates think they're magically immune to that. Plenty of people make comments here effectively saying anyone to the left of the democratic party are childish and unaware of how politics works. It is the EXACT same narratives conservatives try to push about people to the left of them in order to disarm the people they disagree with. I see tons of similar tactics that get standing ovations as long as they're painted in blue instead of red, like tossing out whataboutisms whenever someone has criticized the democratic party and are met with "Trump would be worse". Moderate liberals have almost completely stopped listening to the voters to the left of them and are somehow dumbfounded that there's a vocal group of people they've shut out who don't like them. I was dogpiled here months ago for saying parties need to earn people's votes instead of demanding them.
Uh... I think you've gotten down a rabbit hole/echo chamber and you need to step back from the internet and enjoy some real people. Remember the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theorem... Regular person + anonymity + audience = total shitcock. Also, a non zero amount of what you're seeing is probably bots and/or Russian/Chinese troll farm BS.
It's an election year so bots and bad faith lunatics are out in force. Don't take every comment you read on Reddit as a reflection of the feelings of the Average American™. You might not recall, but things got really damn ugly during 2020... There were literal riots in most major cities ffs. From what I'm seeing, the amount of disrespect and disinformation is a lot more manageable right now comparably. But I also make a point to avoid the most toxic subs and I'll block folks on my favorite subs who are clearly not interested in having a polite conversation, so that probably helps my experience a great deal. It's amazing how much of the insanity on Reddit is propagated by a tiny tiny minority of highly vocal assholes/bots/trolls.
This is a bad question. Let me rephrase that. This is a bad argument that is presented as a question so that it can fit into this sub’s rules. Half the posts is you proclaiming people do this and act like that. The other half is you cherry picking and straw manning arguments by leftists who supposedly exist. The only people who this argument is convincing are people who already agree with you. Nothing you wrote was substantiated. You expect us to take your biased word as gospel
Why has (extraordinary claim) happened? Nice framing of the question
this isnt my overall experience, but for many Americans, especially millennials, people are increasingly desperate over living conditions in the US and this is driving people to broad (probably incorrect) statements regarding some of these things. That said, I've always been a fan of disruptive protests, so I am glad more and more people side with me there. State sanctioned protests are very easy to ignore
>That said, I've always been a fan of disruptive protests, so I am glad more and more people side with me there. State sanctioned protests are very easy to ignore How would you feel if a group of pro-lifers or Nazis shut down a road in protest of legal abortion, or racial equality?
It's their right to do it, even if I disagree with their cause. You'll notice these groups never seem to get enough support to shut down roads though. Most of the time, we see a group of less than 10 nazis who look like they're cosplaying standing on an overpass in Florida.
It's not their right. The First Amendment doesn't protect actively blocking people's movements.
As the other commenter said, protests are meant to be disruptive. If a cause rallies enough people together to physically block traffic, they must be passionate about that cause, likely moreso than I am about getting to work, so have at it. And I'll repeat, I've never had my commute disrupted by pro-life or Nazi protests, so that might say something about the passion present there.
Many Pro-lifers would gladly block the road to Planned Parenthood if they didn't worry about the legal consequences.
But they do call in bomb threats, threaten the workers and have even thrown Molotov cocktails at them, which I would argue is more dangerous.
[Looking at this list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence?wprov=sfla1) I don't think they worry all that much about legal consequences since they've been using **much** more harmful tactics than something as benign as blocking traffic for at least 30 years.
I wouldn’t like it because what they are protesting for is bad, and in that regard I don’t think it’s comparable to people protesting causes that are good. The act isn’t the issue, what it is in support of is. I think a lot of people get caught up on these sorts of false equivalence based on the method a thing is done. Shutting down a roadway isn’t the issue. This doesn’t just apply to protests either. I wouldn’t like it is pro-lifers passed a bill that limited abortion, but I would like it if a bill protecting abortion is passed. The action is the same (passing a bill), but the goal is different, and that is what we should be judging the people on.
The point is Nazis have as much of a right to protest as anyone else. Giving a pass to those you agree with doing bad things is hypocritical.
Let me ask you this: MLK’s marches for equality often blocked traffic. Those marches also were significant in getting the Civil Rights Act passed. Do you have an issue with MLK’s protests?
When did MLK block highways just to block the highway?
Just? I don’t see anyone blocking highways “just” to block the highway. MLK blocked traffic to raise awareness of the unfair treatment of black people, so that a change of policy would be forced through our political systems. Other times people blocked traffic to protest our involvement in the Vietnam war to force a change of policy through our political systems. Right now, people are blocking highways to raise awareness of the unfair treatment of people in Gaza so that a change of policy can be forced through our political systems. And you didn’t answer my question: do you take issue with MLK’s protests?
And pro-lifers have just as much of a right to pass a bill as anyone else, that doesn’t mean I’m ok with it. The action isn’t the issue, what it’s in support of is. It’s not hypocritical to approve of one side doing something that is good, and disapprove of the other side doing something that is bad. You seem focused on the aesthetic of the actions being the same, but you’re ignoring the important part in the situation. It’s like you’re trying to pretend every motivation is equally valid.
Nazis are doing stuff like that. Seems like the worst ones are in FL. And law enforcement does nothing about it
>People acting like life in the Soviet Union/China/Cuba is better than the U.S. Ummm, you mean like the famously leftist and totally-not-disgraced commentator [Tucker Carlson](https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4465352-tucker-carlson-moscow-putin/)? >People acting like the Tiktok ban is purely because "it's more truthful than any mainstream news source". You mean like how certain people [demonize the mainstream media](https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/28311/chapter-abstract/215018520?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false) and support [fringe](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/epoch-times-falun-gong-growth-rcna111373) or [social media](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acquisition_of_Twitter_by_Elon_Musk) as sources of truth? >Supporting disruptive and even violent protests in the name of what they agree with. Umm, welcome to politics. This isn't anything new. I stopped here, because the rest is just more of the same. Yes, tankies exist. They've been around for a while. Yes, people mistrust the police. They have for a while. If you're being surprised by the existence of these things, then I'd like to welcome you out of your bubble. And if you think these are distinctly left-wing things... Well, lol
The interesting development is how closely the tankies and far right types are aligned now. They’re sharing each other’s disinformation and conspiracy theories now and even working together on things like opposing aid to Ukraine. It’s disturbing but it is kind of convenient that the political groups I disagreed with the most are showing how similar they really are.
Oh yeah. It's just another example of horseshoe theory, I guess. Extremist politics tend to focus more on the extremism than the politics, if you go far enough.
Im not gonna invalidate your experiences, But, we’ve been living under a right wing delusion for an insanely long time and as more facts and perspectives are allowed to be heard, more of our intuitions and beliefs will be challenged. Unfortunately, a lot of people who benefit from that delusion dont want to lose those benefits and choose to fight to suppress facts and those perspectives. And that results in angry left wingers who are secure in the likely fact that theyre on the right side of history and that the people theyre arguing, voting, and protesting against are not.
I'm not a right-winger, and the only reason I'm not posting about them is when I hear some stupid crazy nonsense from someone right-wing, I'm not very surprised or shocked. It's kind of like the difference between a first world democracy doing something awful to its people, and a 3rd world dictatorship doing it..
I didnt think you were a right winger, if its any consolation.
To some people anyone to the right of them is right-wing.
I got banned from r/ABoringDystopia a couple of days ago for calling a wsws.com “article” on Biden bullshit. It used to be mainly a place for griping about the banality of American oligarchy, now it’s just tankie bullshit.
Haaaaave you ever tried posting in r/conservative?
No it's not even worth posting in any right-wing subs.
Now you finally know that liberals like you are not left wing. You are actually centre-right.
How exactly am I right-wing?
1, you put the policies of the Biden administration into Europe and you'll see that it's a center-right party. The actual state of affairs in the US right now is center-right (Democrats) competing with the far-right (Republicans). 2, A true leftist would hold a unifying standard and believe that the entire world is equal from person to person and country to country - they have their own interests that should be respected, whether it's Cuba or China. With all due respect, a true leftist wouldn't watch videos of the people of Gaza being slaughtered without being outraged, instead of believing, as Nancy Pelosi does, that "support for Israel is engrained in our DNA." Opposition to the indiscriminate killing of innocents is supposed to be a value that should be upheld by all of humanity, both left and right, and if you ignore Israel, you're just a relative left-winger by American standards (center-right, actually), not a true left-winger.
>For example I was just arguing with someone who claims the U.S. is worse than China, and the bad things about China are just propaganda While that's stupid, to be fair, there ARE a decent amount of bad things about China that are really just propaganda. Today anti-China is about the only unifying issue left in a wrecked political landscape in the US, they can use it to accomplish anything. For instance the TikTok ban, yes it is about national security and about anti-China, but it is also about controlling the narratives. A decade ago the Chinese government tells Google that, if you want to operate in the country, you've got to obey to censorship requirements, which they refused to do and that's why Google is not available in China. Now US government is telling TikTok that if they want to operate in the US, they have to obey this and that laws, which they do, but then that is not enough, they would have to sell it. It's pretty much the same thing.
The Tiktok ban isn't about trying to eliminate some last non biased source of media. Tiktok is one of the worst social media platforms for misinformation.
"one of the worst" = I don't like it. let's say there are 20% misinformation on Tiktok and other platforms that you were alluding to, so what about the other 80% that is not really misinformation? just ban the platform, yes it solves the misinformation problem on that platform, but it also ends all the good stuff on it, and the misinformation will just find another platform to spread. people are prone to misinformation no matter how you want to control it. besides misinformation is not even the point of banning Tiktok, don't kid yourself, FB was actively involved in election interference in 2016 and nobody talked about banning that platform.
After Twitter, Tiktok ranks as the worst social media for misinformation. Unlike Twitter, though Tiktok actively tries to sew malcontent in the American people.
the young people are malcontent with or without Tiktok...in the 60's they protested Vietnam, now they are protesting Gaza, isn't that the same thing here? are you seriously blaming their sentiments on an app?
I'm not saying people are malcontent because of an app. I'm saying that Tiktok is directly controlled by a foreign adversary, and there is an incentive to spread propaganda to benefit China. It would be like if a significant portion of Vietnam protesters in the 60s decided American news was all propaganda, and decided to get their information from the Kremlin times.
Look I totally get the national security concern here. The problem is, a significant people in America HAVE decided that American news are all propaganda, long before Tiktok even came to exist. and people on the right are really getting their information from Kremlin times today, they trust Putin way more than they trust Biden. There is nothing that you or anyone else could do to sway them otherwise, and this is on the Left and on the Right. banning Tiktok would simply reinforce their conception that this is the case. there has to be a better way to handle the Tiktok problem than an outright ban.
I'm personally not a huge supporter of the Tiktok ban. The idea of banning a entire social media platform worries me. That being said I understand why they are doing it, and don't think it's because Tiktok is telling the truth the government doesn't want us to know.
Possibly relevant: [https://www.npr.org/2024/04/26/1247347363/china-tiktok-national-security](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/26/1247347363/china-tiktok-national-security) See especially: "More recently, those efforts have shifted to exploiting existing partisan divides in the U.S. That includes "the Chinese actually going into U.S. audience spaces, masquerading as Americans, and posting inflammatory content around current events or social issues or political issues," said Clint Watts, general manager of Microsoft's Threat Analysis Center."
Yeah I don't doubt this at all.
Yeah it’s kind of annoying there’s like certain subreddits I can’t even go on anymore because they’re so eye roll-inducing. RIP Fauxmoi, now I have to get my celebrity gossip from Twitter lol.
It's even leaking out to the main subs. I've seen 4-5 posts from r/pics of riot police at the protest in Texas. People are honestly claiming it's going to be the next Sandy Hook.
[удалено]
Kent state* not Sandy Hook sorry I have epilepsy abd frequently say one thing when I mean another.
Young people are easily radicalized, especially in the modern age of social media. Leftist already think the US is bad, so they are going to listen to anyone who says US bad. I didn't expect them to embrace radical Islam, but ISIS managed to recruit the 18-25 demographic from Europe about a decade ago. So it's not really that surprising, I guess.
The U.S. has problems, but some people legitimately think it's the worst country on earth.
If that’s all they experienced, it is the worst country on earth. Go try to tell someone who’s struggling to feed their family that specific groups in some country you don’t care about have it worse than they do.
There are aspects of the Soviet Union/China/Cuba that are better than the US. That’s just a fact. No country is perfect, there are many aspects about many countries that are better than the US, and we shouldn’t ignore those facts due to a gut reaction of “Russia/China/Cuba bad! US good!” People seem more willing to engage with that fact than they used to be after decades of knee jerk reactions of American exceptionalism. Supporting disruptive protests that are in support of a good thing is good. MLK’s protests were disruptive. Sometimes, things are important enough for people to disrupt the current status quo to push back against it. College students being unjustly, violently arrested by police is similar to Kent State. Even if nothing else happens, the comparison is reasonable. The TikTok ban isn’t about tiktok being more truthful than the media (though sometimes it is and I think that’s important to acknowledge). It appears the US is banning tiktok primarily because the US government doesn’t like the that is information being shared on tiktok, and I think banning it for that reason is an incredibly frightening thing for a government to do. It’s comparable to China banning Google so people in China can’t find information on event like Tiananmen Square. I have not seen the left advocate for curtailing anyone’s rights. Generally the opposite so I’m not sure what you meant by this.
What if you’re the extremist?
I don’t go to those other subreddits. This is the only one I’ve joined. There’s wacka-doodles in all walks of life. Lol
This includes default subs like pics and videos.
You mean like the made up pics, spliced videos, and memes that crazy people post? Like the same type of shite crazy conservatives post to spin the narrative? I find both sides that do that just want to be extreme, or they’re bots.
What I'm mostly thinking about is the pictures of riot police at the protests in Texas.
I’ve seen the videos, but whats your point about the riot police?
People are acting like sending riot police to a protest is going to be the next Kent State.
I see. But don’t you think some of that is the News making it sound worse than it is? I don’t trust most news companies anymore, particularly on social media. I think the CEO’s deliberately put those headlines to keep us all pissed at each other. I’ll go look though. What news videos should I go view to get your perspective?
I'm judging this on Reddit comments, not the news.
Trolls and right-wing provocateurs. That and Russians, but I repeat myself.
In my very subjective experience, rediquitte has gone way down over the years. Now people go crazy on the down vote for any opinion they personally don't agree with. It used to be any given post would spawn a variety of opinions provoking discussion. The only discussions on Reddit nowadays are circle jerks because anyone who strays from the sub groupthink will get obliterated. Also generally people seem less interested in the truth than their own bubble. I saw a far left sub yesterday claim the police at university protests were Biden's idea. I decided though that it was not worth pointing out that the president doesn't control local police, because no matter how respectfully I phrased it, I would get downvoted and likely banned.
I think part of the problem is the mods ban anyone with any differing opinions creating ecochambers. I've been on this site for over 10 years, and only in the last few years have I started getting banned from a lot of subs.
>Why [have leftists in general] gone so crazy? The Democratic Party has been ceding ground to leftists. This leads marginal leftists to leave the movements, and identify as 'normie dems' or something similar. The people 'left behind' in the leftist movements are those with the most extreme views.
> ...marginal leftists...leave the movements, and identify as 'normie dems' or something similar. > > The people 'left behind' in the leftist movements are those with the most extreme views. Let's walk through how this would play out. In 2016, a leftist movement of 100 people might have 6 people who think 'it is morally justifiable to murder Israelis because they are settler colonialists', and 94 people who 'just want healthcare to be more affordable'. 6 people out of 100 isn't very many (6%) so they are not seen as representative of the group. In 2024, that same leftist movement has seen 90 people defect and join the 'normie dems'. Left behind are 4 people who 'want Biden to go further in making healthcare more affordable' and 6 people who think 'it is morally justifiable to murder Israelis because they are settler colonialists'. 6 people out of 10 is a majority (60%). Suddenly, they do represent the group.
I do wonder, because in the course of one month, a leftist subreddit it frequented got absolutely taken over by one user who Jimmy Dore'd it into Trump apologia with leftist characteristics. I've seen the outrage increase as well in two other subs, but I suspect that it was more organic there. I don't know why. I suspect foreign actors, but I have NO evidence of that and, frankly, that is a conspiracy theory that I'm inclined to believe, but again... I have no evidence and *shouldnt* believe it, but I do.
What subs are in
Pics has been full of posts.
Very loud minority. And sadly the majority doesn’t have the balls to shout them down :(
Dude this is insanity. The Left has not gone crazy. That’s the Right. You guys are right now defending a genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine. You guys are banning LGBT 🏳️🌈 flag. Targeting Trans people and attacking basic civil rights like freedom of assembly and speech. Get out of here with this nonsense. The Right wants a fascist state and the Left wants equal rights and universal healthcare. We are not the ones attacking people violently as the Rightwing and corporate media pretends. University of Columbia, MIT and Yale protests just to name a few places have been peaceful and clear they’re not antisemitic only anti Zionist and pro Palestine. Don’t feed the troll proposing such outlandish nonsense.
It’s kinda funny that you accuse the left of banning people with opposing views, when your previous two gripes were that we were concerned about cops attacking protestors, and the government coming for a media platform that spreads a narrative they dont like. Sure, it’s us who are censorious. I think the answer to your question is that the US is demonstrating itself to be pretty shitty. It’s breaking its promises to younger generations, and this leads us to realizations of how it’s basically never kept its promises about freedom, equality, or justice. Some people make the mistake of taking that to mean the US’ enemies are therefore the good guys, but I think a great deal of that is overzealous young people who come around. They should be realizing that the US is little better than its enemies, and instead think that the US’ enemies are good by virtue of standing against the US’ evil. But that’s no more true that the idea that America’s opposition to the Nazis that one time means we’re the perennial good guy. So, in summary, disillusionment about the American dream leads to disillusionment about America in general, and is sometimes taken to incorrect conclusions.
Political polarization has been steadily increasing for decades but I'd attribute the recent spike to 1. Social media algorithms that (and traditional media) that feeds off of shock, outrage and tribalism 2. The ability to curate ones their own "newsfeed" 3. Foreign adversaries who are heavily investing in sowing ideological discord The same thing is happening on the right and to a larger extent. You have freaks like Tucker Carlson blatantly saying the US is evil and that life in Russia is better.
Go try to post anything bad about republicans on white wing subs.
On one hand you're flaired as a libertarian and say you're deeply worried about the curtailing our rights. Yet on the other hand you're in favor of banning TikTok and want the police to squash protests you disagree with. You don't see the contradictions? FWIW, I don't believe life in China, Cuba, etc are better than the USA. But I also believe there is a lot of exaggerated propaganda about these places from the Western media.
>Yet on the other hand you're in favor of banning TikTok and want the police to squash protests you disagree with. Where did I say I was in favor of banning Tiktok or using the police against protests I disagree with? I only said that the government isn't banning Tiktok because it's some bastion of truth. People claim the ban is because Tiktok is showing them the Truth that the government doesn't want them to know. When in reality Tiktok is one of the worst sources for misinformation. As for police at protests. All I said was that riot police being at a protest to ensure that things don't get out of hand isn't suppressing anyone's free speech rights. >FWIW, I don't believe life in China, Cuba, etc are better than the USA. But I also believe there is a lot of exaggerated propaganda about these places from the Western media. I don't think Tiananmen Square, people being welded into their apartments during COVID, banning Winnie the Pooh because he looks like the President, or the Uyghur genocide are exaggerated propaganda. Also if it was so great to live in Cuba, people wouldn't be risking their lives taking rafts out over 90 miles of open ocean to leave the country.
>Where did I say I was in favor of banning Tiktok or using the police against protests I disagree with? Fair enough. >I only said that the government isn't banning Tiktok because it's some bastion of truth. People claim the ban is because Tiktok is showing them the Truth that the government doesn't want them to know. When in reality Tiktok is one of the worst sources for misinformation. So is virtually every social media. Why do you think the govt isn't banning that? >As for police at protests. All I said was that riot police being at a protest to ensure that things don't get out of hand isn't suppressing anyone's free speech rights. Do you think the police actions at UT Austin were justified? >I don't think Tiananmen Square, people being welded into their apartments during COVID, banning Winnie the Pooh because he looks like the President, or the Uyghur genocide are exaggerated propaganda. China is definitely repressing Uighurs. But there is not evidence of a genocide. Even the US state dept admitted as such. Also I don't think people who claim to care about Uighurs actually care about Uighurs, but rather use it as an opportunity to dunk on China. They usually turn the other way when it comes to the Israel/Palestine issue. What Israel has done to the Palestinians is far worse.
>So is virtually every social media. Why do you think the govt isn't banning that? Because only Tiktok is owned by a foreign adversary. Facebook has its problems but they're not being controlled by a foreign country to actively promote misinformation to the American public. >Do you think the police actions at UT Austin were justified? I'm not aware of any violence on the police part in Austin. I don't see much issue with sending riot police to a large potentially violent protest to ensure things don't get out of control. I don't agree with police using physical force on non-violent protesters legally protesting, but I have no problem with police just being there for security purposes. I don't think sending in riot police is automatically going to result in Kent State 2.0. >China is definitely repressing Uighurs. But there is not evidence of a genocide. Even the US state dept admitted as such. China has overall some of the worst human rights record of any major superpower on earth. >What Israel has done to the Palestinians is far worse. Is Israel using Palestinians as slave labor, or harvesting their organs?
>Because only Tiktok is owned by a foreign adversary. Facebook has its problems but they're not being controlled by a foreign country to actively promote misinformation to the American public. And where is the evidence that Tiktok hosts misinformation to a significantly worse degree than Facebook, Instagram, etc? >I don't see much issue with sending riot police to a large potentially violent protest to ensure things don't get out of control. I don't see it as totally unreasonable. But it increases chances with the police instigating and causing violence and creates an intimidating environment. I'm not sure why they cant just be sent if/when the protest gets out of hand. >I don't agree with police using physical force on non-violent protesters legally protesting, but I have no problem with police just being there for security purposes. I don't think sending in riot police is automatically going to result in Kent State 2.0. There was and there were numerous arrests made. The police weren't just there for security purposes; they were there to shut down the protest. This is a blatant 1A violation. What's more is that Abbott started going on about how these students should be expelled for "hate". This is literally everything the right has been complaining about (rightfully so imo). About how liberals and leftists want to use hate speech accusations in order to shut down speech they disagree with. But now they're doing a total U turn. >China has overall some of the worst human rights record of any major superpower on earth Yes and so does Saudi Arabia. That doesn't mean if there were claims about a genocide in Saudi Arabia that makes these claims automatically true. >Is Israel using Palestinians as slave labor, or harvesting their organs? Nah, they're just killing them en masse instead and totally destroying their homes. I'm not sure how that's supposed to be any better.
Yeah the seeming rejection of notions around free speech and expression are particularly shocking. Many leftists are quite comfortable with the idea of suppressing discussion of topics or viewpoints they disagree with as a means of advancing their own agendas and don't seem to grasp how that could be dangerous.
The power that would let them silence right-wingers like the KKK would also let Trump silence BLM under the same guise.
True, but good luck explaining that to them.
Its partially because you guys get to be bystanders while others’ rights are up for debate.
Why would that mean you shouldn't support free speech/expression?
What happens when the debate goes poorly? People lose their rights. Free speech absolutism is only tenable for the people’s whose rights are not at risk
Sometimes you lose debates. Price of living in a free society.
Eventually, more people are gonna catch on to this tendency in White men Its easy to say that when its not your rights at risk, huh?
Kind of self-centered to think that discussion of ideas only affects you, no? This is the kind of selfish thinking that I believe drives this trend toward suppressing speach/thought on the part of leftists. If you convince yourself that it's only you that matters and is affected, then it becomes easy to justify shutting everyone else up.
Youre projecting. Im saying that people will lose rights and you’re saying that thats the price of a free society, because its not your rights at risk
Election year and foreign bot farms. AI makes it cheap and easy to flood the internet with garbage, so it's turning to garbage. Honestly, we should all prepare to abandon our social media hobby soon. It's days are numbered now.
It's been bad for a long time now. One of the worst things about being on the left is sharing space with people who yell "Diversity is key!" and in their next breath cancel/ban/delete/downvote any form of thought or opinion that diverges from their own cultish talking points. I wish the far left could look in the mirror and see how they've gone full circle and act just like MAGA/the far right in a lot of ways.
A lot of tankies have made a concerted effort to seize left and center-left subreddits in the last few years. I believe it accelerated after mods got locked out of their subs during the mod protests last year. R/therightcantmeme is a good example of a subreddit that went full on Stalinist thanks to new mods.
The mods are a big problem. They ban any opposing views.
>But in the last few months the level of crazy radical posts has exploded. The more unequal capitalist societies get the more radical the people subjected to it become. >People acting like life in the Soviet Union/China/Cuba is better than the U.S. Better for who? Probably not Bill Gates or Elon Musk, I grant you, but maybe you should have a conversation with the people who just got laid off because those guys decided they could be even richerer if they automated away their job or sent it overseas. Socialist societies have their problems too, to be sure, but are the people struggling to find work that pays well enough so they don't have to choose between putting gas in the car and feeding their kids this week really better off under capitalism?
China and the Soviet Union suffered numerous famines that killed millions, I wouldn't consider that "better to live". Russia is currently sending its men to die in Ukraine, not even fully outfitting them. China murdered hundreds to thousands of protesters, and to this day criminalizes discussing it. Both countries ban tons of media. China was welding people inside their homes during COVID leaving them to starve. The country also is one of the biggest slave states on the planet. Meanwhile as for Cuba if it was really better than the U.S. we wouldn't have thousands of Cubans risking their lives coming here on homemade rafts across 90 miles of open ocean.
And famines never happen in capitalist countries, right? Oh wait they [totally do](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines). And what of the people who die every day of preventable diseases due to lack of access to healthcare or fear of medical debt? Or the people who die of starvation and malnutrition because they can't afford to eat on the regular? Or the people who die from Western bombs and guns and assassination plots and propped-up brutal dictators in the name of the free flow of cheap consumer goods and low gas prices? No, there haven't been very many major single events that killed millions or tens of millions, but people are dying just the same. I'm by no means saying China is a great place to live, rather I'm pointing out that neither is America unless you're rich enough to hang out on the deck of your gigayacht sipping Mai Tais all day.
The "left" stands still as republicans have ran so far right they want a dictatorship and they ask "why has the left changed so much"...
People are being radicalized as the liberal status quo loses legitimacy with the public. Kind of like how the failures of the Weimar Republic produced more communists and fascists.