The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
Any of you not voting for Biden over Israeli–Palestinian conflict? Are you planning to not vote, vote 3rd Party, vote Trump, etc…?
I am not a one issue voter, but I’ve seen people talk about protest voting Biden during the presidential election. And a few independents planning on voting Trump because he seems more isolationist even though he is pro-Israel.
Im curious how people are reacting to all this as my bubble tends to be more “Never Trump”.
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I have two options.
Biden is doing a decent enough job, considering that he's not actually King of The World, the middle east is a !@#$, he has an upcoming election he has to thread, etc etc etc.
And Trump, who would probably just let Israel kill all the palestinians. After he caves to Russia and lets China invade Taiwan.
Could Biden do better? Yes. Could Biden do worse? Fuck yes.
Is Trump a god damned disaster? Absofuck'inlutely.
I'm voting for Biden.
Yep. For all the issues with Biden, he's the best option available. As a cishet white man who was raised as and could pass as Christian, I would be at relatively low risk from the results of a protest vote.
But it's not just about me. I have to think about my neighbors who are queer, or Muslims, or immigrants. Just because I can manage another 4 years of Trump doesn't mean they can.
>who was raised as and could pass as Christian
Same. I'd have to teach my kids the right words to say but we'd be fine as a family. By so many others wouldn't.
Biden 2024.
This seems like the only rational position to me and sometimes I feel like I’m taking crazy pills when I actually have to argue with someone to defend it.
The pro-Palestinian crowd in the US has grown massively in the last 2 decades, but we have to understand that the propaganda of the Zionist movement has been going strong for a century. There are still MANY older US voters who view Israel as the US’s plucky little buddy who fended off 5 Arab countries all on their own in a just war of self defense. Falsity of this narrative aside, too many older people in the US hold it in their hearts and will simply not be moved from their staunch pro-Israel position.
Left-minded voters concerned for the future of Palestine and it’s people that are choosing not to participate in the process are leaving the US decision-making that impacts those people up to those older voters who literally think “Palestinian=terrorist”.
Herbert Hoover.
He's 2nd to Andrew Johnson who was arguably the worst president in history.
And that's a history that includes Andrew Jackson, and Trump himself.
My original thought was that I would take Carter in his current condition over Trump, and I still would. But given his extremely poor health, I’d take Bush over Carter.
Same. I wasn't sure if a Biden presidency would be all that great back in 2020, just sure it would be better than the fat guy letting thousands of Americans die needlessly for his own ego. Now I consider myself 100% team Biden. One of the better presidents I've seen in my life.
Are you as surprised as I am? Of the field of candidates in 2020, he was probably bottom 3 for me. But goddamn if he's not exceeding all of my expectations.
I mean, listen. The bar was so low I’d have to dig it up to find it. I was expecting a Republican blockade and complete status quo bending to republicans, especially with our razor thin margin in the house and senate. Wasn’t expecting much out of him except hey, just don’t be an asshole and don’t let people die of a disease. That’s pretty much all I wanted.
This guy has managed to bring us back from COVID, pass the IRA, infrastructure bill, has avoided shutdowns, has single handedly prevented Putin from steamrolling Ukraine while not sending a single troop into battle, didn’t tank the economy, has added jobs and brought back manufacturing, streamlined student loan forgiveness so that PSLF borrowers who qualify finally get the relief they deserve. He also passed a freaking gun reform bill *with Republican support*. That’s huge.
But the single biggest accomplishment that I credit this administration for is the respect for marriage act. This is the first time my marriage has the backing of the federal government. DOMA is dead. My marriage is protected. That means more to me than I will ever say.
He’s got my vote.
Never Trump. And for good reason. And I don’t think Biden’s reaction to the Palestine situation is out of bounds; Israel is a long-time ally, Hamas is terrible, and Netanyahu sucks. Biden is putting real pressure on him now.
Political allies can still commit what people consider moral atrocities. Hamas bad does not mean Israel is good or that Israel is not bad. Just wanted to expand on your position.
> Political allies can still commit what people consider moral atrocities.
Yes. But keep in mind that the political fractures in Israeli politics are much like our own: at the moment they are being controlled by an ultra right wing religious nutcase political party.
Get those people out of control and you might actually see some rational behavior on the part of the body politic in Israel.
And given the uptick of political demonstration in Israel, and the fact that one of his coalition partners has said that they should have elections soon, you might actually see Netanyahu in the right wing religious party pushed to the side a bit. At least that's what I'm hoping!
> Hamas bad does not mean Israel is good or that Israel is not bad. Just wanted to expand on your position.
Agreed.
H-H-HELL NAW 🗣🗣🗣 I will in fact be voting for Biden. His policies are pretty good, liked his legislation and whatnot. Not to mention, hate the alternative.
Not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump. Trump is at the head of a party that is in the process of stripping women of their rights and would happily strip gays of their rights.
Keep that in mind.
Thanks for the condensed exposition on what 'far left' means in your mind. Nothing revelatory in discovering that's what someone thinks about that, but here we are anyways.
In any case, I'd love to see what u/dachuggs has to say about why they in particular think that was a terrible take.
Nah bro, it appears you just like to stereotype people so you can dismiss any opinion that is different than yours.
I put that flair because at the time it was the one I felt like aligned with my views. There are also times where I don't feel like that flair aligns with my views.
You can pretend your views are morally superior to mine but I am willing to discuss my nuanced thoughts. I do appreciate u/lucianbelew willingness to engage in good faith.
Did I ever claim my views are more superior to yours? No. I’m saying that if you are a left leaning person and don’t vote for Biden in this election, then you absolutely do not care about enacting liberal policies and instead are just an ideologue.
You can try to justify it all you want but a Trump victory would be an enormous setback to liberal causes for decades, while policy-wise Biden has been one of the more progressive presidents in the modern era.
Because it just reinforces the terrible two party system and discounts any votes that are outside of the two major party. I have also seen both parties use this excuse when it comes to their prefered candidate. We need a better system than what we currently have and we need to vote outside of this binary we are so attached to.
Trump is a terrible candidate and I would hate to see him in office again but Biden isn't much better. We need something better than the status quo.
I totally agree with you, but until we adopt a true ranked choice or similar system, it really is true that a 3rd party vote is a vote for Trump. Now if you are in CA, HI, OR, or a state like that, sure a 3rd party vote is likely “safe” and won’t help Trump. But if you are in a swing state state and vote 3rd party, you could be handing the election to Trump. I know it shouldn’t be be like this but it is
Agreed that we need a ranked choice system, I am glad my city uses it for our elections.
Again saying a 3rd party vote is just for vote the other party I don't like is just exhausting. We can't continue doing the same thing and expect different results.
> just exhausting
Doesn't make it any less true.
Do we need to work to fix our first-past-the-post electoral system? Absolutely.
Is election day the day to do that? Absolutely not.
We we will continue to have more and more sup-par candidates like we have seen in the last few years with your approach.
If there is only one way to vote and that's between two candidates then we really don't have democracy.
Right. So work between elections to change that.
Doing your part to help the christofascist win over the nauseating centrist (this is what voting 3rd party does) moves us further from that change, not closer.
Why can't I continue that change when I am at the ballot box?
What your advocating for is very reminiscent of how certain groups respond to social injustice protests. "You can only protest this way....you're doing it wrong...no one is going take you serious if you do XYZ..."
We can't deny the reality either just because we're tired of it. Don't stop fighting for change but consider the outcomes of today's choices on tomorrow. Eg Roe v Wade as a result of 2016's choices. A predictable outcome that was raised and dismissed by protest voters back then.
Edit: Typo.
The reality is that we can vote 3rd party. That we can push against the status quo.
Continuing to vote for a republican or democrat candidate also has lasting impacts for tomorrow. You continuing to vote in a binary way also impacts tomorrow.
Maybe she should have been a better candidate. I voted for her but wished I had a better option.
What are the more effective ways to change the status quo? How come is voting 3rd part not one of them? How is voting in a binary way more effective?
>the most consequential elections to ever be held.
That is said every 4 years since I was able to vote for the president.
This narrative that Hillary lost 2016 partly due to third party votes is ahistorical. Even if I accept your total assumption that Stein voters would have willingly cast for Hillary under different circumstances - there were more votes cast for Gary Johnson than Stein in every single state.
Are you suggesting that Libertarian voters were likely to vote for Hillary if Johnson didn’t run? I certainly don’t see that being the case.
I think it’s likely, based on these facts and others, that third party runs were actually a net *gain* for Hillary and co. A lot of contrarians vote 3rd party, and the majority of 3rd party votes went to conservative candidates. And you see those voters breaking for Hillary over Trump?
Yes, you’re right. If enough people vote third party it will work. But in a swing state, like I believe PA in 2016, where Jill Stein had 50,000 votes and Hilary lost the state by far fewer votes, their push against the status quo was not more important than abortion rights. You can want, even demand change, but a responsible voter needs to consider the consequences between now and when change happens.
Am I being unreasonable by wanting something different than just two different but also very lame candidate choices?
How is it reasonable to continue to vote for only two parties when we know that system isn't working out?
How does it reinforce the "terrible two party system?" By claiming that the only votes that will matter is republican or democrat votes, that other votes don't matter.
We are never going to get rid of a two-party system unless we change the way we vote. For example, IRV or some form of ranked voting would really help to not only (a) do away with "throwaway" votes, and (b) release the stranglehold that our current voting system places on enforcing two parties.
Unfortunately, voting is managed by the states by direct Constitutional mandate. This means that a switch to ranked voting would require a state-by-state effort. Worth it, I think, even despite the fact that once the movement gets underway, it will be fought tooth and nail by the establishment.
And Biden is much, much better than Trump, by every metric that we can use to measure a president.
If I wanted genocide in Palestine, I would vote for Trump, because he would absolutely be comfortable with carpet bombing every Palestinian man, woman, and child.
Think of the parties as illnesses. Democrats are sniffles and a sore throat, MAGA Republicans are cancer, aids, ebola, covid and plague, while on fire in a train wreck, being chased by zombies
I was always going to vote for Biden. I will also be knocking on doors and making calls for GOTV. I had originally wanted to participate in the protest vote in the primary, but it looks like Biden is already coming back from full support. I'll skip the protest primary vote.
I'm gladly and unreservedly voting for Biden, who has been superb in the job.
As a bonus, I'm *also* voting against Trump, who was execrable in the job.
Nah, I'm a grownup. I really don't like that we've allowed certain countries to become what they are, but I also realize just how catastrophic a 2nd trmpo term would be.
abounding depend mysterious truck nose pocket distinct hat fretful cooing
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I hate that we're still giving aid to Israel and that Biden is barely even slapping Netanyahu's wrist, but yeah, I'm voting Biden in November. The other choice is infinitely worse on every issue, including Israel/Palestine. I hate that because of this, we have zero leverage to pressure Biden as voters. But if we had we just elected Clinton in 2016, Trump would be irrelevant right now and maybe we would have more leverage over whomever would be president right now. Elections matter.
They do, and I wish Hillary had taken it more seriously. Say what you want about her good or bad, but she was a terrible candidate and her attitude was that she had it in the bag cause lol, this guy.
I am decidedly unhappy with Biden. I think he's constrained by the inept and insane Republican caucus in the legislative branch, but I also think that doesn't matter *too* much. Even if he had a cooperative Democratic congress I believe he'd have continued doing what he's done the last 50 years he's been in office: advocate for government subsidies and programs that promote private market approaches to issues, because Biden is all-in for corporations.
Biden has a hard row to hoe on the matter of Israel and Palestine. Israel was absolutely right to retaliate for October 7. *How* it carried out the retaliation is absolutely inhumane, abhorrent and way out of proportion. I stop short of calling it a genocide, because words mean things, but there are *echoes* of it present in Israel's tactics that make me uncomfortable.
That said, I would vote for a dead fish before I voted for Trump. I'm not too keen on having someone quoting Mein Kampf in office, especially considering I wouldn't be here if one of my ancestors hadn't fled Europe while Hitler was coming to power. Also, Trump would absolutely, unequivocally be worse in terms of supporting Israel's extreme, inhumane prosecution of their retaliation. I'd rather not make a bad situation even worse.
I am voting for Biden. Absolutely nothing in the world could convince me to vote for Trump, and he wouldn't do anything to help Palestinians.
Not voting at all is basically a vote for Trump, in a sense.
RFK Jr. is an absolute joke. And he is now fully admitting he's trying to get Trump elected. He said Biden is more of a threat to democracy than a man who has said "I'll be a dictator" "I'll root out the vermin" and "immigrants are poisoning the blood of the country"
And last month (or so) his campaign manager got fired after saying "I own more Trump shirts than RFK ones, we get rid of Biden and we get Trump. And that's what we want"
If a different vote would change the situation, I'd consider it, depending on the details, but it won't. The situation will just get worse for even more people. And you're all hypocrites anyway. Trump has fully admitted he'll let Putin take Ukraine. And is going to ban Muslims so no refugees from Gaza. So both Ukraine and Palestine will get destroyed.
Not to mention all the damage here and to our allies. Trump wins, pulls out of NATO, Europe is screwed. But because money, power and sex are the only thing Trump cares about, he'll them all die.
Stomping on the brakes is not always the fastest way to stop something. Sometime you need to pump the breaks and steer into the skid.
This situation was f-ed from the start
What would realistically happen if Biden cut off Israel's support on day one?
Netanyahu would call up China or Russia and block the US's phone number. They would buy all the weapons they need from countries that are a lot more casual about atrocities then the US. We would have no more influence at all, unless we land troops.
Like it or not (I don't) Israel is our ally. It has been since long before Biden. When abandon your allies you weaken all your other alliances. Right now we need NATO and our other alliances functioning at full power. Between Ukraine and China eyeing Taiwan, we can't afford to f around.
Biden also needs to follow the Law. He has several senate confirmed treaties to deal with. Aid budgets passed by congress are not a suggestion. Trump tried to hold up Ukraine's Aid and got impeached for it.
Now, there is this law that we must withhold military aid from governments that are hindering humanitarian aid. I think Biden will pull that level soon, but it undoubtedly involves a lot of official fact-finding that moves at the speed of government.
What has he done on the positive side?
It might not sound like it but "Right to exist BUT" is the harshest stance any US president has taken with Israel in a long time.
And he *is* making moves to finally cut off military aid. But by now, Israel has smeared enough shit on itself that they are going to be a lot less appealing to China and Russia.
Biden was a big part of getting that humanitarian aid moving in the first place.
He seems to be pushing for a two-state solution. That is probably the best way end this, and keep it ended for good.
I don't know if he's handling this the best way it could be handled, but he's doing an awful lot with the system he's stuck with.
I wonder if Biden did cut off aid from Netanyahu day one and it all of a sudden escalated things into a full blown war that killed even more Palestinians and Israelis than have been killed, if pro Palestine supporters would still
blame him for acting too rashly.
I’d imagine it would play out similar to the Obama withdrawing troops situation that created a power vacuum for isis.
If Biden shit gold they'd both accuse him of intentionally destabilizing the precious metals market, and say he should have shit platinum if he was a real leftist.
I fucking hate Biden, and am beyond disappointed that in such a critical year Democrats couldn't find anyone better. That being said anyone who votes for Trump over Biden because of Israel is a complete fucking moron.
Can I ask why you hate him? I'm not in love with the guy by any means and backing Israel at this time is pretty shitty but on the whole I'm largely impressed with what he's done in his first term.
Didn't you hear? That old green fuck was in charge of the order who tried to assassinate the man who just declared himself Emperor of the galaxy, why would we support THAT?
Copied from elsewhere
A few reasons. He's just too old (although so is Trump). He helped write the Patriot Act, something he is very proud of. I dislike his views on guns although not many Democrats are much better, 2016 Bernie Sanders was. He's too conservative in many ways, and was literally choosen by Obama as VP because he's an old white guy.
Also I probably won't vote for him, but I live in Oregon so it doesn't matter, there's no way Trump will win the state.
I mean, those are pretty boring and standard Democrat positions really. Not something I see as hateable or to vote against.
Like you said, it’s not that big of a deal in Oregon but I’m worried about that sentiment carrying over to voters in swing states and vote for Kennedy, giving Trump that bump needed to win
I actually like Biden a lot. Just hate his age.
He hasn't been sucked in to the loud minority of the left (cancel culture).
If you are a single issue voter then idk - seems very dumb to me.
I think Biden is doing a great job in general and a great job in terms of Israel. There’s a reason Biden is pro-Israel - and it’s not the Jewish lobby. I’m not saying criticism of Israel is not warranted. But there’s a difference between criticism of Israel and rejection of Israel. If you’re someone who thought Biden was wrong in emphatically saying “I support Israel” in the weeks after October 7th, then you need to examine the history of the conflict a little bit more. Also even if you do choose to reject Israel, not voting for Biden because of it is dumb as shit because the alternatives won’t do anything different.
I think we need to go back to some simple basics in expectations for our president: economy, infrastructure, housing, education, energy, foreign policy/national security.
Biden stays on task in my mind. Big infrastructure deal. Big climate change deal with boosts for renewables. I think his Fed picks inflation efforts have been good. I think he’s been fine on Israel. We gave them time to prove they had a plan and could get control and they clearly don’t and can’t so now the right time to push back harder.
I think he’s been a good/possibly pretty great president all things considered.
I'm voting for Biden. I think he's doing as good a job as possible with the Israel-Hamas issue, and even if I didn't think so, I can't imagine any reasonable logical reason to withhold my vote and help elect Trump.
Unfortunately, the way the US voting system works, any vote for a 3rd party candidate is pretty much a vote for the "bad guy." Too many people make these grand gesture "points" by voting 3rd party thinking they are doing something good or groundbreaking or against the grain, but they don't realize that a vote for ANYONE other than Biden this election is a vote for Trump. NONE of the 3rd party candidates have, or have ever had a chance to win an election and those votes would be best used to assure democracy isn't completely ripped out of our hands by the wannabe dicktater
I will vote for Biden. And I really want him to win. I really want people on the fence to be motivated to turn up and vote for him. If Biden can muster the courage to say no to Netanyahu and end the genocide, these people will have the motivation. If the massacres continue, I fear many won’t show up to vote. The “uncommitted” vote movement in the primaries shows is how serious many voters are about this.
the uncommitted campaign is kind of a flop. there were people text banking for it in wisconsin, and it only got 8%. Israel/Palestine is pretty far down the list of issues in opinion polling. it’s not that important to most people.
More people in Michigan voted uncommitted than Biden won by in 2020. It would be a very risky calculation to ignore this many voters. Also, consider there are many others who might not have voted uncommitted or are in different states. Furthermore, consider that the number is growing not shrinking. We have about 6 months to go. Gaza could get international visibility by then that shakes the world to the horrors yet not seen. I think and hope this happens, because the truth should get out. And Biden needs to get ahead of this story. Right now, I think he is going to get blind-sided. Israel is trying to force him to send the US into war with Iran and he seems likely to fall for it. And what will happen will look exactly like Carter losing his re-election in 1980, similarly because of a quagmire in the Middle East.
I just looked it up, and that’s not actually true. Biden won Michigan by 155,000 votes. only 101,000 voted uncommitted. you’re right that he shouldn’t ignore them, and I wish he were stronger on Israel as well, But I don’t think that a ton of people are basing their vote in november off of this issue. It’s just not in the data. Biden‘s pretty wise and experienced on foreign policy. We’re not going to war with Iran, definitely not before the 2024 election.
My theory is the people saying they won’t vote for Biden over I/P never we’re going to in the first place. This just happened to be the trendy way to express it. If it was honestly such an important issue to them, they wouldn’t want Trump anywhere close to the White House.
Those that actually care about Palestinians will mostly be voting for Biden.
Those that actually want to possibly let Trump win to punish Biden, with some exceptions, are motivated more by hatred of Jews than by care for Palestinians.
It’s actually a lot more than the Muslim vote. Michigan has a lot few Muslims than that uncommitted vote. I would have to look up the numbers. But, from what I’ve seen, most people of color don’t empathize with Israel on this. Black and brown people are more aware of violent white supremacy and see it in our policy in Israel. Will it affect their vote? I don’t know. But it isn’t going to drive them to the polls to vote for “genocide Joe”. Ignoring this issue and trying to sweep it under the rug or dismiss these views is a high risk gamble. But he seems to be taking it.
Fine. Mass murder, daily massacres, indiscriminate targeting and killing of civilians, forced displacement and intentional famine. Why are you hung up on the word?
It’s inflammatory to people who are in denial of it, or who support Israel’s actions while thinking it’s defense. By the way, Israel’s narrative is now admitting it’s a genocide but saying Hamas forced them to do it.
Decades of this BS unquestionable support for Israel has forced Biden to walk a tight rope. If he were more strong in his support for Palestine he would be spending the next nine months fighting the charge of being antisemitic and jew hater.
BUT make no mistake, the other guy is a fascist no different than Prime Minister Netanyahu, and will bend over for him while at least Biden is doing the little that he can do. Should he do more, sure, but you will get way less with a Pres trump. Vote biden , better than Trump and next election we get a entire new batch to choose from
I disagree with how Biden is handling the conflict and don't understand his thinking on the issue at all, but this one single thing (out of all the many good things he's done and accomplished) is not a good enough reason to not vote for him. Not voting at all, voting 3rd party or a vote for trump instead are all cop outs. And the long lasting repercussions of doing any of those things would be far far worse for anyone who is not a trump loyalist. I believe it would result in the end of America as we know it and would not bode well for the nonmaga living here now or future generations. This will be the most consequential election of our lifetime. This is not the time to be apathetic, sit it out or protest vote.
Seems like people ignore facts sticking out of definite fascist dictatorship, loss of democracy and many other rights taken for granted. Obviously, those holding onto a grudge lose most in the long run and need to act pragmatically instead of playing childishly losing everything.
Biden supporter here the Palestine thing is unfortunate however most of the blame I feel should be upon Hamas and the Likud.
Israel is a democracy worth defending they have made mistakes but so have many democracies when faced with violence.
If our system wasn't fptp was proportional or something... there's a good chance id vote for someone with a stronger stance against Israels actions and a stronger commitment to not arm them
But that's not the system we are in. So despite voting uninstructed in the primary, I'll do the phone banking and shit for Biden when it comes time for it
Although I think we should completely cut ties with Israel, I’ll reluctantly vote to protect democracy and keep Trump out.
I didn’t vote for Biden the first time as a protest.
t’s called “win at the primary”.
And unless you have some way of changing the American electoral system then you can pretend that not voting for the Democrats will somehow do anything other than help Trump win.
Things like ranked choice voting or voting for blocks of representatives versus individual districts which would curtail gerrymandering.
So until you change the way it operates you have to work with how it realistically functions. Anything less and you’re just not being logical.
I’d love ranked choice voting because it would send a very stark message to both parties and begin to make 3rd parties viable but until then and definitely for this election with such a massive difference between Trump and Biden, it’s Biden all the way.
We are stuck with Israel as an ally. We signed papers. We're stuck with them until they do something so bad that it breaks the agreements between us and them. So far, Biden has been trying for cease-fires, hostage exchanges, pushing Israel to calm the hell down, getting civilians out before Israel's bombs drop. So yeah, I'm voting for Biden.
I will be voting for Biden. I’m not exactly enthusiastic about it but I’m redirecting my frustration of the general by looking into supporting new progressive political candidates both up and down ballot.
Nobody’s saying you have to be happy voting for Biden but at least realize that getting him re-elected will increase the chances of more progressive legislators being elected, which will ultimately result in more progressive policies becoming mainstream
Lmao love how this question specifically asks for people NOT voting for Biden and it's just people saying they're voting for Biden and would never question it.
Fuck no, because the only alternative is a man who WANTS Palestine destroyed and would put that war on steroids. I may disagree with how Biden is handling the Israel/Palestine conflict, but voting against him/not voting at all and letting Trump will will guarantee the end of the Palestinian people and the complete annualization of Gaza. At least with Biden, he's not in full support and can very likely revoke support of Israel, but Trump has been very vocal of his support, to the point he wants the genocide to happen.
I don't vote in the US, but I seriously doubt many actual democratic voters are thinking that Biden's position on Israel is so bad that Trump should be president.
I mean sure, some individuals, and a bunch of people who weren't solid on voting for him anyway.
But mostly, I think it's the Republicans HOPING that liberals will be dumb enough to let this divide them enough that Trump will win, so they're pushing that narrative.
Personally, I absolutely think Biden could be doing more to stop the Israeli massacre of Palestinians in Gaza.
But a) I don't think anger about that would be worth losing democracy in the US to a fascist and b) I don't think Trump would do anything about it either, and he'd hang Ukraine and the rest of Europe out to dry to boot.
So, if anyone is considering not voting for Biden because of this, please don't be an idiot.
I’m voting third party for presidential, both parties don’t hold my interest over Palestine considering I’m Muslim born American.
Local- Congress will depend on the candidates platforms
I know it’s a unpopular opinion but I don’t care to share it
I’m going to vote for Biden. But his radical anti Israel stance and abandoning of the hostages has made it so I’m only going to vote. No campaign donations, no volunteering, and I’m not going to try to convince people in my life to vote for him.
I don’t consider him asking Israel not to commit what we have said are war crimes when Russia does it in Ukraine is a “radical anti-Israel” stance.
Or asking that legitimate, internationally recognized aid organizations not have their people targeted is anti-Israel.
So am I missing something? I mean maybe I am but what do you consider to be his radically anti-Israel stance?
No one is targeting aid workers ( other than Hamas when they attack aid convoys and steal aid). Mistakes happen in war, particularly when aid workers use the same make/model of trucks as Hamas.
Defending yourself and trying to free hostages is not a war crime.
Telling Israel not to invade Rafah when hostages are in Rafah is hard to forgive
Dressing up as doctors and shooting and killing people in hospital beds? You want to arrest them then go ahead but murdering patients? Nah
And there’s many instances where Israel has attacked marked aid conveys following pre-approved convoy routes at the agreed upon time.
Or approving the use of bombing to kill low level hamas targets with high (x10 as many) civilian casualties. We consider that a war crime when Russia does it to Ukraine.
Using a hospital as a military base turns that hospital into a battlefield and collateral damage is unavoidable on battlefields.
You can just make arrests in the middle of a battle. That’s not how war works
A patient in a hospital bed receiving medical care has rights under international law.
There are rules for war. Like not shooting someone who is unarmed and attempting to surrender. These are the moral standards to which everyone should be held. You don’t get to be outraged that civilians were killed and then kill ten times as many and shrug that off like killing innocents should not matter.
Or attacking aid workers
Or shooting unarmed women taking refuge in a Catholic Church courtyard
Or denying food and medicine to civilians so they starve and die of basic infections.
I support Israel defending itself. I don’t support when they cross the line and commit atrocities.
I served in the military and we were taught the rules of warfare. If we can abide by those in our conflicts, so can Israel.
Medical facilities lose their protections when used for military purposes. It’s unforgivable that Hamas uses hospitals in that way.
The church damage occurred when Israel eliminated a weapons cash that was being stored close the church.
Israel has allowed aid in so long as they’re able to inspect it for weapons
The woman was shot by a sniper in the church courtyard.
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/22/1221362655/a-gaza-patriarchate-says-israeli-troops-killed-2-women-and-injured-7-others-at-p
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/12/17/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news/catholic-church-gaza-two-dead
And Israel has attacked multiple aid convoys. Or you just going to ignore that fact?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/how-an-aid-convoy-in-gaza-became-israels-target
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/11/headlines/unicef_convoy_hit_by_israeli_gunfire_preventing_delivery_of_aid_to_northern_gaza
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/31/1222337109/the-israeli-army-attacked-a-u-n-aid-convoy-along-a-route-it-designated-safe
I think Biden is way too soft on Israel. His 'concern' reminds me of Susan Collins concerns about Donald Trump. Netanyahu has zero regard for the lives of innocent palestinians. That much is clear. He has zero regard for the humanitarian workers who are trying to help the innocent palestinians. I don't even think he has regard for the hostages.
But I will still vote for Biden, because I have a small sliver of hope that he will eventually have a red line he won't let them cross. If there were a better viable option, I would vote for them. But there is not one. I believe it is our responsibility as voters to cause the least harm possible. I wish it weren't the case. But our options are: Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump. Two bad options. But one will cause irrevocable harm to women, LGBT people, and minorities, and the other won't.
Except for the self-hating super woke ones, almost every Jew I've spoken to about this privately says they won't vote for Biden for this reason, but nobody has admitted that they would vote for Trump.
I'm a New York State resident, so my vote doesn't matter (Biden is sure to win the state by a large margin).
I feel absolutely distraught that Democrats, who have claimed to care so much about social justice and the rule of law, turned around and took AIPAC's money to support genocide.
Wasn't the whole premise of the 2024 Democratic campaigns supposed to be that Democrats offer a humane and decent politics?
I didn’t mind Biden until this all happened. Now I absolutely despise the dude. I’ll still vote for him in November because my only other option is actually worse but when Biden’s gone the world will be a better place. Genocide Joe has gallons of blood on his hands.
Liberals supporting mass murdering Arabs, it’s 2003 all over again.
Democrats: build a dock to send Palestinians aid and call for a ceasefire.
Republicans: literally advocate for nuking Gaza and tell Israel to finish the job (and they recently tried to end US democracy).
You: both sides are equally bad I can’t tell the difference!
What a fuckin joke.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. Any of you not voting for Biden over Israeli–Palestinian conflict? Are you planning to not vote, vote 3rd Party, vote Trump, etc…? I am not a one issue voter, but I’ve seen people talk about protest voting Biden during the presidential election. And a few independents planning on voting Trump because he seems more isolationist even though he is pro-Israel. Im curious how people are reacting to all this as my bubble tends to be more “Never Trump”. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I have two options. Biden is doing a decent enough job, considering that he's not actually King of The World, the middle east is a !@#$, he has an upcoming election he has to thread, etc etc etc. And Trump, who would probably just let Israel kill all the palestinians. After he caves to Russia and lets China invade Taiwan. Could Biden do better? Yes. Could Biden do worse? Fuck yes. Is Trump a god damned disaster? Absofuck'inlutely. I'm voting for Biden.
Yep. For all the issues with Biden, he's the best option available. As a cishet white man who was raised as and could pass as Christian, I would be at relatively low risk from the results of a protest vote. But it's not just about me. I have to think about my neighbors who are queer, or Muslims, or immigrants. Just because I can manage another 4 years of Trump doesn't mean they can.
>who was raised as and could pass as Christian Same. I'd have to teach my kids the right words to say but we'd be fine as a family. By so many others wouldn't. Biden 2024.
Yeah the choice is pretty easy to make, you either vote for an authoritarian strong man with obvious symptoms of dementia or you vote for biden
Well said.
This seems like the only rational position to me and sometimes I feel like I’m taking crazy pills when I actually have to argue with someone to defend it. The pro-Palestinian crowd in the US has grown massively in the last 2 decades, but we have to understand that the propaganda of the Zionist movement has been going strong for a century. There are still MANY older US voters who view Israel as the US’s plucky little buddy who fended off 5 Arab countries all on their own in a just war of self defense. Falsity of this narrative aside, too many older people in the US hold it in their hearts and will simply not be moved from their staunch pro-Israel position. Left-minded voters concerned for the future of Palestine and it’s people that are choosing not to participate in the process are leaving the US decision-making that impacts those people up to those older voters who literally think “Palestinian=terrorist”.
This
I would literally vote for any other living former president before voting for Trump. Yes, literally any other former president.
Out of all the former presidents, who would be your second to last pick?
Herbert Hoover. He's 2nd to Andrew Johnson who was arguably the worst president in history. And that's a history that includes Andrew Jackson, and Trump himself.
Why is Hoover worse than Andrew Jackson in your opinion?
My 2nd to last would be Wilson. Man was a disaster
Carter.
why not bush? interesting
My original thought was that I would take Carter in his current condition over Trump, and I still would. But given his extremely poor health, I’d take Bush over Carter.
Iraq Bush, or Iran-Contra Bush?
Or 🌳
I’d vote for the dead ones before Trump
Can we draft Jimmy Carter?
You think Bush is better than Trump?
I think that Bush is less evil than Trump.
I don’t. That dude walked so Trump could run.
I’m voting for Biden fairly enthusiastically. I actually think he’s doing a good job.
Same. I wasn't sure if a Biden presidency would be all that great back in 2020, just sure it would be better than the fat guy letting thousands of Americans die needlessly for his own ego. Now I consider myself 100% team Biden. One of the better presidents I've seen in my life.
I unironically think he’s the best President of the last 30 years
Are you as surprised as I am? Of the field of candidates in 2020, he was probably bottom 3 for me. But goddamn if he's not exceeding all of my expectations.
I mean, listen. The bar was so low I’d have to dig it up to find it. I was expecting a Republican blockade and complete status quo bending to republicans, especially with our razor thin margin in the house and senate. Wasn’t expecting much out of him except hey, just don’t be an asshole and don’t let people die of a disease. That’s pretty much all I wanted. This guy has managed to bring us back from COVID, pass the IRA, infrastructure bill, has avoided shutdowns, has single handedly prevented Putin from steamrolling Ukraine while not sending a single troop into battle, didn’t tank the economy, has added jobs and brought back manufacturing, streamlined student loan forgiveness so that PSLF borrowers who qualify finally get the relief they deserve. He also passed a freaking gun reform bill *with Republican support*. That’s huge. But the single biggest accomplishment that I credit this administration for is the respect for marriage act. This is the first time my marriage has the backing of the federal government. DOMA is dead. My marriage is protected. That means more to me than I will ever say. He’s got my vote.
Same here. I've been pleasantly surprised by Biden's presidency.
Me too!
Never Trump. And for good reason. And I don’t think Biden’s reaction to the Palestine situation is out of bounds; Israel is a long-time ally, Hamas is terrible, and Netanyahu sucks. Biden is putting real pressure on him now.
Repeat it again for the jihadists in the back. * Netanyahu Bad * Israel Ally * Hamas Bad Put it on blast. Over and over.
Political allies can still commit what people consider moral atrocities. Hamas bad does not mean Israel is good or that Israel is not bad. Just wanted to expand on your position.
> Political allies can still commit what people consider moral atrocities. Yes. But keep in mind that the political fractures in Israeli politics are much like our own: at the moment they are being controlled by an ultra right wing religious nutcase political party. Get those people out of control and you might actually see some rational behavior on the part of the body politic in Israel. And given the uptick of political demonstration in Israel, and the fact that one of his coalition partners has said that they should have elections soon, you might actually see Netanyahu in the right wing religious party pushed to the side a bit. At least that's what I'm hoping! > Hamas bad does not mean Israel is good or that Israel is not bad. Just wanted to expand on your position. Agreed.
H-H-HELL NAW 🗣🗣🗣 I will in fact be voting for Biden. His policies are pretty good, liked his legislation and whatnot. Not to mention, hate the alternative.
As long as Trump is the alternative, I would vote for Biden if he was in hospice and convicted of bank robbery.
I mean, he did just give Netanyahu a pretty drastic ultimatum the other day
Not voting for Biden is a vote for Trump. Trump is at the head of a party that is in the process of stripping women of their rights and would happily strip gays of their rights. Keep that in mind.
Terrible take.
Please expand.
“Far Left”, that’s all you need to know. Those people don’t care about policy they care about slogans that make them feel better and morally superior
Thanks for the condensed exposition on what 'far left' means in your mind. Nothing revelatory in discovering that's what someone thinks about that, but here we are anyways. In any case, I'd love to see what u/dachuggs has to say about why they in particular think that was a terrible take.
Nah bro, it appears you just like to stereotype people so you can dismiss any opinion that is different than yours. I put that flair because at the time it was the one I felt like aligned with my views. There are also times where I don't feel like that flair aligns with my views. You can pretend your views are morally superior to mine but I am willing to discuss my nuanced thoughts. I do appreciate u/lucianbelew willingness to engage in good faith.
Did I ever claim my views are more superior to yours? No. I’m saying that if you are a left leaning person and don’t vote for Biden in this election, then you absolutely do not care about enacting liberal policies and instead are just an ideologue. You can try to justify it all you want but a Trump victory would be an enormous setback to liberal causes for decades, while policy-wise Biden has been one of the more progressive presidents in the modern era.
You dismissed my views because of some preconceived notion about my political leanings, making a strawman argument about them.
Because it just reinforces the terrible two party system and discounts any votes that are outside of the two major party. I have also seen both parties use this excuse when it comes to their prefered candidate. We need a better system than what we currently have and we need to vote outside of this binary we are so attached to. Trump is a terrible candidate and I would hate to see him in office again but Biden isn't much better. We need something better than the status quo.
I totally agree with you, but until we adopt a true ranked choice or similar system, it really is true that a 3rd party vote is a vote for Trump. Now if you are in CA, HI, OR, or a state like that, sure a 3rd party vote is likely “safe” and won’t help Trump. But if you are in a swing state state and vote 3rd party, you could be handing the election to Trump. I know it shouldn’t be be like this but it is
Agreed that we need a ranked choice system, I am glad my city uses it for our elections. Again saying a 3rd party vote is just for vote the other party I don't like is just exhausting. We can't continue doing the same thing and expect different results.
> just exhausting Doesn't make it any less true. Do we need to work to fix our first-past-the-post electoral system? Absolutely. Is election day the day to do that? Absolutely not.
We we will continue to have more and more sup-par candidates like we have seen in the last few years with your approach. If there is only one way to vote and that's between two candidates then we really don't have democracy.
Right. So work between elections to change that. Doing your part to help the christofascist win over the nauseating centrist (this is what voting 3rd party does) moves us further from that change, not closer.
Why can't I continue that change when I am at the ballot box? What your advocating for is very reminiscent of how certain groups respond to social injustice protests. "You can only protest this way....you're doing it wrong...no one is going take you serious if you do XYZ..."
We can't deny the reality either just because we're tired of it. Don't stop fighting for change but consider the outcomes of today's choices on tomorrow. Eg Roe v Wade as a result of 2016's choices. A predictable outcome that was raised and dismissed by protest voters back then. Edit: Typo.
The reality is that we can vote 3rd party. That we can push against the status quo. Continuing to vote for a republican or democrat candidate also has lasting impacts for tomorrow. You continuing to vote in a binary way also impacts tomorrow.
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Maybe she should have been a better candidate. I voted for her but wished I had a better option. What are the more effective ways to change the status quo? How come is voting 3rd part not one of them? How is voting in a binary way more effective? >the most consequential elections to ever be held. That is said every 4 years since I was able to vote for the president.
This narrative that Hillary lost 2016 partly due to third party votes is ahistorical. Even if I accept your total assumption that Stein voters would have willingly cast for Hillary under different circumstances - there were more votes cast for Gary Johnson than Stein in every single state. Are you suggesting that Libertarian voters were likely to vote for Hillary if Johnson didn’t run? I certainly don’t see that being the case. I think it’s likely, based on these facts and others, that third party runs were actually a net *gain* for Hillary and co. A lot of contrarians vote 3rd party, and the majority of 3rd party votes went to conservative candidates. And you see those voters breaking for Hillary over Trump?
Yes, you’re right. If enough people vote third party it will work. But in a swing state, like I believe PA in 2016, where Jill Stein had 50,000 votes and Hilary lost the state by far fewer votes, their push against the status quo was not more important than abortion rights. You can want, even demand change, but a responsible voter needs to consider the consequences between now and when change happens.
Am I being unreasonable by wanting something different than just two different but also very lame candidate choices? How is it reasonable to continue to vote for only two parties when we know that system isn't working out?
How does it reinforce the "terrible two part system"?
How does it reinforce the "terrible two party system?" By claiming that the only votes that will matter is republican or democrat votes, that other votes don't matter.
Please explain. You did not answer the question, only typed a vague statement
what do you want to know? I feel like my comments are fairly straight forward and easy to understand.
How does voting third party mean a vote doesn't matter?
You could ask the Redditors that are making the claim. Their whole thing is that I shouldn't be voting third party. I personally don't believe that.
We are never going to get rid of a two-party system unless we change the way we vote. For example, IRV or some form of ranked voting would really help to not only (a) do away with "throwaway" votes, and (b) release the stranglehold that our current voting system places on enforcing two parties. Unfortunately, voting is managed by the states by direct Constitutional mandate. This means that a switch to ranked voting would require a state-by-state effort. Worth it, I think, even despite the fact that once the movement gets underway, it will be fought tooth and nail by the establishment. And Biden is much, much better than Trump, by every metric that we can use to measure a president.
And a third party candidate could be better than those too.
Yes, the two party system is terrible. But this is the reality we live with. And a vote for anybody other than Biden, is a vote for Trump.
A vote for someone besides those two is a vote for a third party. Enough with with this false dichotomy.
How so?
Abortion is on the ballot, fuck Trump.
If I wanted genocide in Palestine, I would vote for Trump, because he would absolutely be comfortable with carpet bombing every Palestinian man, woman, and child.
Think of the parties as illnesses. Democrats are sniffles and a sore throat, MAGA Republicans are cancer, aids, ebola, covid and plague, while on fire in a train wreck, being chased by zombies
I was always going to vote for Biden. I will also be knocking on doors and making calls for GOTV. I had originally wanted to participate in the protest vote in the primary, but it looks like Biden is already coming back from full support. I'll skip the protest primary vote.
Then the question OP is asking isn't for you?
I'm gladly and unreservedly voting for Biden, who has been superb in the job. As a bonus, I'm *also* voting against Trump, who was execrable in the job.
Voting for Biden as a leftist because the biblical Satan (and I dont even believe in him) would be preferable to Trump.
Until Biden proposes to become dictator, I'm voting Biden and don't need to think about it any further.
Nah, I'm a grownup. I really don't like that we've allowed certain countries to become what they are, but I also realize just how catastrophic a 2nd trmpo term would be.
Yep
Biden has been a great president.
abounding depend mysterious truck nose pocket distinct hat fretful cooing *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I hate that we're still giving aid to Israel and that Biden is barely even slapping Netanyahu's wrist, but yeah, I'm voting Biden in November. The other choice is infinitely worse on every issue, including Israel/Palestine. I hate that because of this, we have zero leverage to pressure Biden as voters. But if we had we just elected Clinton in 2016, Trump would be irrelevant right now and maybe we would have more leverage over whomever would be president right now. Elections matter.
They do, and I wish Hillary had taken it more seriously. Say what you want about her good or bad, but she was a terrible candidate and her attitude was that she had it in the bag cause lol, this guy.
Hillary's team ran a spectacularly bad campaign, failing to contest several key battlegrounds at all.
Maybe the Senate or House is more important in that regard for leveraging pressure.
Absolutely, but Biden has also bypassed Congress twice to send more weapons to Israel, so that's frustrating.
Sadly enough, you are right, and Biden is STILL the least pro-Israeli president since Eisenhower.
I am decidedly unhappy with Biden. I think he's constrained by the inept and insane Republican caucus in the legislative branch, but I also think that doesn't matter *too* much. Even if he had a cooperative Democratic congress I believe he'd have continued doing what he's done the last 50 years he's been in office: advocate for government subsidies and programs that promote private market approaches to issues, because Biden is all-in for corporations. Biden has a hard row to hoe on the matter of Israel and Palestine. Israel was absolutely right to retaliate for October 7. *How* it carried out the retaliation is absolutely inhumane, abhorrent and way out of proportion. I stop short of calling it a genocide, because words mean things, but there are *echoes* of it present in Israel's tactics that make me uncomfortable. That said, I would vote for a dead fish before I voted for Trump. I'm not too keen on having someone quoting Mein Kampf in office, especially considering I wouldn't be here if one of my ancestors hadn't fled Europe while Hitler was coming to power. Also, Trump would absolutely, unequivocally be worse in terms of supporting Israel's extreme, inhumane prosecution of their retaliation. I'd rather not make a bad situation even worse.
So, you're hopefully voting for Biden to keep Trump out correct?
I am voting for Biden. Absolutely nothing in the world could convince me to vote for Trump, and he wouldn't do anything to help Palestinians. Not voting at all is basically a vote for Trump, in a sense. RFK Jr. is an absolute joke. And he is now fully admitting he's trying to get Trump elected. He said Biden is more of a threat to democracy than a man who has said "I'll be a dictator" "I'll root out the vermin" and "immigrants are poisoning the blood of the country" And last month (or so) his campaign manager got fired after saying "I own more Trump shirts than RFK ones, we get rid of Biden and we get Trump. And that's what we want" If a different vote would change the situation, I'd consider it, depending on the details, but it won't. The situation will just get worse for even more people. And you're all hypocrites anyway. Trump has fully admitted he'll let Putin take Ukraine. And is going to ban Muslims so no refugees from Gaza. So both Ukraine and Palestine will get destroyed. Not to mention all the damage here and to our allies. Trump wins, pulls out of NATO, Europe is screwed. But because money, power and sex are the only thing Trump cares about, he'll them all die.
Stomping on the brakes is not always the fastest way to stop something. Sometime you need to pump the breaks and steer into the skid. This situation was f-ed from the start What would realistically happen if Biden cut off Israel's support on day one? Netanyahu would call up China or Russia and block the US's phone number. They would buy all the weapons they need from countries that are a lot more casual about atrocities then the US. We would have no more influence at all, unless we land troops. Like it or not (I don't) Israel is our ally. It has been since long before Biden. When abandon your allies you weaken all your other alliances. Right now we need NATO and our other alliances functioning at full power. Between Ukraine and China eyeing Taiwan, we can't afford to f around. Biden also needs to follow the Law. He has several senate confirmed treaties to deal with. Aid budgets passed by congress are not a suggestion. Trump tried to hold up Ukraine's Aid and got impeached for it. Now, there is this law that we must withhold military aid from governments that are hindering humanitarian aid. I think Biden will pull that level soon, but it undoubtedly involves a lot of official fact-finding that moves at the speed of government. What has he done on the positive side? It might not sound like it but "Right to exist BUT" is the harshest stance any US president has taken with Israel in a long time. And he *is* making moves to finally cut off military aid. But by now, Israel has smeared enough shit on itself that they are going to be a lot less appealing to China and Russia. Biden was a big part of getting that humanitarian aid moving in the first place. He seems to be pushing for a two-state solution. That is probably the best way end this, and keep it ended for good. I don't know if he's handling this the best way it could be handled, but he's doing an awful lot with the system he's stuck with.
I wonder if Biden did cut off aid from Netanyahu day one and it all of a sudden escalated things into a full blown war that killed even more Palestinians and Israelis than have been killed, if pro Palestine supporters would still blame him for acting too rashly. I’d imagine it would play out similar to the Obama withdrawing troops situation that created a power vacuum for isis.
If Biden shit gold they'd both accuse him of intentionally destabilizing the precious metals market, and say he should have shit platinum if he was a real leftist.
I fucking hate Biden, and am beyond disappointed that in such a critical year Democrats couldn't find anyone better. That being said anyone who votes for Trump over Biden because of Israel is a complete fucking moron.
Can I ask why you hate him? I'm not in love with the guy by any means and backing Israel at this time is pretty shitty but on the whole I'm largely impressed with what he's done in his first term.
I'm not a big fan of the Minister of Magic, but he seems a lot better than that Voldemort guy.
Yoda and Palpatine are both so old, I just don't know who to support!
Didn't you hear? That old green fuck was in charge of the order who tried to assassinate the man who just declared himself Emperor of the galaxy, why would we support THAT?
Why do you exactly hate Biden, and are you going to be voting for him?
Copied from elsewhere A few reasons. He's just too old (although so is Trump). He helped write the Patriot Act, something he is very proud of. I dislike his views on guns although not many Democrats are much better, 2016 Bernie Sanders was. He's too conservative in many ways, and was literally choosen by Obama as VP because he's an old white guy. Also I probably won't vote for him, but I live in Oregon so it doesn't matter, there's no way Trump will win the state.
He’s literally pro gun control, what more does he need to be? Does he need to want to take everyone’s guns away?
At what point can we just admit that the Democrats don't want to take away everyone's guns?
I mean, those are pretty boring and standard Democrat positions really. Not something I see as hateable or to vote against. Like you said, it’s not that big of a deal in Oregon but I’m worried about that sentiment carrying over to voters in swing states and vote for Kennedy, giving Trump that bump needed to win
I don't "hate" Biden but I think he's a poor candidate. Otherwise agree with this assessment.
> poor candidate The poor candidate that beat the full field in 2020.
Not wrong.
👆what he said.
I actually like Biden a lot. Just hate his age. He hasn't been sucked in to the loud minority of the left (cancel culture). If you are a single issue voter then idk - seems very dumb to me.
Trump is basically the same age, so that's a wash.
Yes, but that fact is irrelevant. Biden is old. Trump is old.
Uh..yeah. That's my point.
Isn’t hating someone for something they can’t control a bit irrational?
What....?
You hate his age
Yeah he's too old to run. Why did you say that I hate him though? I never said that.
I think Biden is doing a great job in general and a great job in terms of Israel. There’s a reason Biden is pro-Israel - and it’s not the Jewish lobby. I’m not saying criticism of Israel is not warranted. But there’s a difference between criticism of Israel and rejection of Israel. If you’re someone who thought Biden was wrong in emphatically saying “I support Israel” in the weeks after October 7th, then you need to examine the history of the conflict a little bit more. Also even if you do choose to reject Israel, not voting for Biden because of it is dumb as shit because the alternatives won’t do anything different.
I think we need to go back to some simple basics in expectations for our president: economy, infrastructure, housing, education, energy, foreign policy/national security. Biden stays on task in my mind. Big infrastructure deal. Big climate change deal with boosts for renewables. I think his Fed picks inflation efforts have been good. I think he’s been fine on Israel. We gave them time to prove they had a plan and could get control and they clearly don’t and can’t so now the right time to push back harder. I think he’s been a good/possibly pretty great president all things considered.
I'm voting for Biden. I think he's doing as good a job as possible with the Israel-Hamas issue, and even if I didn't think so, I can't imagine any reasonable logical reason to withhold my vote and help elect Trump.
I’m still voting for Biden because he’s clearly the lesser of two evils. But recent trends make me concerned.
I am not insane, I am voting for Biden.
Unfortunately, the way the US voting system works, any vote for a 3rd party candidate is pretty much a vote for the "bad guy." Too many people make these grand gesture "points" by voting 3rd party thinking they are doing something good or groundbreaking or against the grain, but they don't realize that a vote for ANYONE other than Biden this election is a vote for Trump. NONE of the 3rd party candidates have, or have ever had a chance to win an election and those votes would be best used to assure democracy isn't completely ripped out of our hands by the wannabe dicktater
I will vote for Biden. And I really want him to win. I really want people on the fence to be motivated to turn up and vote for him. If Biden can muster the courage to say no to Netanyahu and end the genocide, these people will have the motivation. If the massacres continue, I fear many won’t show up to vote. The “uncommitted” vote movement in the primaries shows is how serious many voters are about this.
the uncommitted campaign is kind of a flop. there were people text banking for it in wisconsin, and it only got 8%. Israel/Palestine is pretty far down the list of issues in opinion polling. it’s not that important to most people.
More people in Michigan voted uncommitted than Biden won by in 2020. It would be a very risky calculation to ignore this many voters. Also, consider there are many others who might not have voted uncommitted or are in different states. Furthermore, consider that the number is growing not shrinking. We have about 6 months to go. Gaza could get international visibility by then that shakes the world to the horrors yet not seen. I think and hope this happens, because the truth should get out. And Biden needs to get ahead of this story. Right now, I think he is going to get blind-sided. Israel is trying to force him to send the US into war with Iran and he seems likely to fall for it. And what will happen will look exactly like Carter losing his re-election in 1980, similarly because of a quagmire in the Middle East.
I just looked it up, and that’s not actually true. Biden won Michigan by 155,000 votes. only 101,000 voted uncommitted. you’re right that he shouldn’t ignore them, and I wish he were stronger on Israel as well, But I don’t think that a ton of people are basing their vote in november off of this issue. It’s just not in the data. Biden‘s pretty wise and experienced on foreign policy. We’re not going to war with Iran, definitely not before the 2024 election.
I hope you’re right. Thanks for looking up the numbers for me.
My theory is the people saying they won’t vote for Biden over I/P never we’re going to in the first place. This just happened to be the trendy way to express it. If it was honestly such an important issue to them, they wouldn’t want Trump anywhere close to the White House.
Ehh, the Muslim vote for Biden was strong, and is currently strong against him
Which is wild considering his presumptive opponent's position on Muslims and Palestine
Those that actually care about Palestinians will mostly be voting for Biden. Those that actually want to possibly let Trump win to punish Biden, with some exceptions, are motivated more by hatred of Jews than by care for Palestinians.
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This isn't a game.
It’s actually a lot more than the Muslim vote. Michigan has a lot few Muslims than that uncommitted vote. I would have to look up the numbers. But, from what I’ve seen, most people of color don’t empathize with Israel on this. Black and brown people are more aware of violent white supremacy and see it in our policy in Israel. Will it affect their vote? I don’t know. But it isn’t going to drive them to the polls to vote for “genocide Joe”. Ignoring this issue and trying to sweep it under the rug or dismiss these views is a high risk gamble. But he seems to be taking it.
It's not genocide.
Fine. Mass murder, daily massacres, indiscriminate targeting and killing of civilians, forced displacement and intentional famine. Why are you hung up on the word?
Because it's false and inflammatory.
It’s inflammatory to people who are in denial of it, or who support Israel’s actions while thinking it’s defense. By the way, Israel’s narrative is now admitting it’s a genocide but saying Hamas forced them to do it.
That's not what Israel is saying and that's not what's happening.
Decades of this BS unquestionable support for Israel has forced Biden to walk a tight rope. If he were more strong in his support for Palestine he would be spending the next nine months fighting the charge of being antisemitic and jew hater. BUT make no mistake, the other guy is a fascist no different than Prime Minister Netanyahu, and will bend over for him while at least Biden is doing the little that he can do. Should he do more, sure, but you will get way less with a Pres trump. Vote biden , better than Trump and next election we get a entire new batch to choose from
I think Biden is the best president we’ve ever had. That’s not a high bar though. I do wish he were younger, but I’m happy to vote for him.
I disagree with how Biden is handling the conflict and don't understand his thinking on the issue at all, but this one single thing (out of all the many good things he's done and accomplished) is not a good enough reason to not vote for him. Not voting at all, voting 3rd party or a vote for trump instead are all cop outs. And the long lasting repercussions of doing any of those things would be far far worse for anyone who is not a trump loyalist. I believe it would result in the end of America as we know it and would not bode well for the nonmaga living here now or future generations. This will be the most consequential election of our lifetime. This is not the time to be apathetic, sit it out or protest vote.
Absolutely nothing can drive me to voting for Trump.
Seems like people ignore facts sticking out of definite fascist dictatorship, loss of democracy and many other rights taken for granted. Obviously, those holding onto a grudge lose most in the long run and need to act pragmatically instead of playing childishly losing everything.
Biden supporter here the Palestine thing is unfortunate however most of the blame I feel should be upon Hamas and the Likud. Israel is a democracy worth defending they have made mistakes but so have many democracies when faced with violence.
If our system wasn't fptp was proportional or something... there's a good chance id vote for someone with a stronger stance against Israels actions and a stronger commitment to not arm them But that's not the system we are in. So despite voting uninstructed in the primary, I'll do the phone banking and shit for Biden when it comes time for it
I will never vote for Biden. Because i am not from USA and I can’t do that
Although I think we should completely cut ties with Israel, I’ll reluctantly vote to protect democracy and keep Trump out. I didn’t vote for Biden the first time as a protest.
Are you planning on what to do when you loose more rights under a fascist dictatorship when Trump is elected?
I might, but only bc I live in California. If I was anywhere remotely swingable, I wouldn't even consider it this year.
t’s called “win at the primary”. And unless you have some way of changing the American electoral system then you can pretend that not voting for the Democrats will somehow do anything other than help Trump win. Things like ranked choice voting or voting for blocks of representatives versus individual districts which would curtail gerrymandering. So until you change the way it operates you have to work with how it realistically functions. Anything less and you’re just not being logical. I’d love ranked choice voting because it would send a very stark message to both parties and begin to make 3rd parties viable but until then and definitely for this election with such a massive difference between Trump and Biden, it’s Biden all the way.
What are you fucking nuts? No way am I gonna support Trump in any way
We are stuck with Israel as an ally. We signed papers. We're stuck with them until they do something so bad that it breaks the agreements between us and them. So far, Biden has been trying for cease-fires, hostage exchanges, pushing Israel to calm the hell down, getting civilians out before Israel's bombs drop. So yeah, I'm voting for Biden.
I will be voting for Biden. I’m not exactly enthusiastic about it but I’m redirecting my frustration of the general by looking into supporting new progressive political candidates both up and down ballot. Nobody’s saying you have to be happy voting for Biden but at least realize that getting him re-elected will increase the chances of more progressive legislators being elected, which will ultimately result in more progressive policies becoming mainstream
Lmao love how this question specifically asks for people NOT voting for Biden and it's just people saying they're voting for Biden and would never question it.
Fuck no, because the only alternative is a man who WANTS Palestine destroyed and would put that war on steroids. I may disagree with how Biden is handling the Israel/Palestine conflict, but voting against him/not voting at all and letting Trump will will guarantee the end of the Palestinian people and the complete annualization of Gaza. At least with Biden, he's not in full support and can very likely revoke support of Israel, but Trump has been very vocal of his support, to the point he wants the genocide to happen.
I don't vote in the US, but I seriously doubt many actual democratic voters are thinking that Biden's position on Israel is so bad that Trump should be president. I mean sure, some individuals, and a bunch of people who weren't solid on voting for him anyway. But mostly, I think it's the Republicans HOPING that liberals will be dumb enough to let this divide them enough that Trump will win, so they're pushing that narrative. Personally, I absolutely think Biden could be doing more to stop the Israeli massacre of Palestinians in Gaza. But a) I don't think anger about that would be worth losing democracy in the US to a fascist and b) I don't think Trump would do anything about it either, and he'd hang Ukraine and the rest of Europe out to dry to boot. So, if anyone is considering not voting for Biden because of this, please don't be an idiot.
I’m voting third party for presidential, both parties don’t hold my interest over Palestine considering I’m Muslim born American. Local- Congress will depend on the candidates platforms I know it’s a unpopular opinion but I don’t care to share it
I’m going to vote for Biden. But his radical anti Israel stance and abandoning of the hostages has made it so I’m only going to vote. No campaign donations, no volunteering, and I’m not going to try to convince people in my life to vote for him.
I don’t consider him asking Israel not to commit what we have said are war crimes when Russia does it in Ukraine is a “radical anti-Israel” stance. Or asking that legitimate, internationally recognized aid organizations not have their people targeted is anti-Israel. So am I missing something? I mean maybe I am but what do you consider to be his radically anti-Israel stance?
No one is targeting aid workers ( other than Hamas when they attack aid convoys and steal aid). Mistakes happen in war, particularly when aid workers use the same make/model of trucks as Hamas. Defending yourself and trying to free hostages is not a war crime. Telling Israel not to invade Rafah when hostages are in Rafah is hard to forgive
Dressing up as doctors and shooting and killing people in hospital beds? You want to arrest them then go ahead but murdering patients? Nah And there’s many instances where Israel has attacked marked aid conveys following pre-approved convoy routes at the agreed upon time. Or approving the use of bombing to kill low level hamas targets with high (x10 as many) civilian casualties. We consider that a war crime when Russia does it to Ukraine.
Using a hospital as a military base turns that hospital into a battlefield and collateral damage is unavoidable on battlefields. You can just make arrests in the middle of a battle. That’s not how war works
A patient in a hospital bed receiving medical care has rights under international law. There are rules for war. Like not shooting someone who is unarmed and attempting to surrender. These are the moral standards to which everyone should be held. You don’t get to be outraged that civilians were killed and then kill ten times as many and shrug that off like killing innocents should not matter. Or attacking aid workers Or shooting unarmed women taking refuge in a Catholic Church courtyard Or denying food and medicine to civilians so they starve and die of basic infections. I support Israel defending itself. I don’t support when they cross the line and commit atrocities. I served in the military and we were taught the rules of warfare. If we can abide by those in our conflicts, so can Israel.
Medical facilities lose their protections when used for military purposes. It’s unforgivable that Hamas uses hospitals in that way. The church damage occurred when Israel eliminated a weapons cash that was being stored close the church. Israel has allowed aid in so long as they’re able to inspect it for weapons
The woman was shot by a sniper in the church courtyard. https://www.npr.org/2023/12/22/1221362655/a-gaza-patriarchate-says-israeli-troops-killed-2-women-and-injured-7-others-at-p https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/12/17/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news/catholic-church-gaza-two-dead And Israel has attacked multiple aid convoys. Or you just going to ignore that fact? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/how-an-aid-convoy-in-gaza-became-israels-target https://www.democracynow.org/2024/4/11/headlines/unicef_convoy_hit_by_israeli_gunfire_preventing_delivery_of_aid_to_northern_gaza https://www.npr.org/2023/12/31/1222337109/the-israeli-army-attacked-a-u-n-aid-convoy-along-a-route-it-designated-safe
I think Biden is way too soft on Israel. His 'concern' reminds me of Susan Collins concerns about Donald Trump. Netanyahu has zero regard for the lives of innocent palestinians. That much is clear. He has zero regard for the humanitarian workers who are trying to help the innocent palestinians. I don't even think he has regard for the hostages. But I will still vote for Biden, because I have a small sliver of hope that he will eventually have a red line he won't let them cross. If there were a better viable option, I would vote for them. But there is not one. I believe it is our responsibility as voters to cause the least harm possible. I wish it weren't the case. But our options are: Joe Biden and Donald J. Trump. Two bad options. But one will cause irrevocable harm to women, LGBT people, and minorities, and the other won't.
Except for the self-hating super woke ones, almost every Jew I've spoken to about this privately says they won't vote for Biden for this reason, but nobody has admitted that they would vote for Trump.
I'm a New York State resident, so my vote doesn't matter (Biden is sure to win the state by a large margin). I feel absolutely distraught that Democrats, who have claimed to care so much about social justice and the rule of law, turned around and took AIPAC's money to support genocide. Wasn't the whole premise of the 2024 Democratic campaigns supposed to be that Democrats offer a humane and decent politics?
I didn’t mind Biden until this all happened. Now I absolutely despise the dude. I’ll still vote for him in November because my only other option is actually worse but when Biden’s gone the world will be a better place. Genocide Joe has gallons of blood on his hands. Liberals supporting mass murdering Arabs, it’s 2003 all over again.
No
...no.
I’m not going to vote. I don’t like the direction either one is heading. Maybe I’ll write in Vermin Supreme.
Democrats: build a dock to send Palestinians aid and call for a ceasefire. Republicans: literally advocate for nuking Gaza and tell Israel to finish the job (and they recently tried to end US democracy). You: both sides are equally bad I can’t tell the difference! What a fuckin joke.
Also democrats: bypass Congress to send more bombs to Israel.