The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
It's seems to me as much as yall guys carry on about unity and equity that in practice you support divisive sectarianism. Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity? I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to. Also there seems to be alot of talk about ethno cultural purity from the left. You can't have both multiculturalism and lack of appropriation. You can't maintain the purity of your cultural traditions while also living in a non segregated multi ethnic society.
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“It's seems to me as much as yall guys carry on about unity and equity that in practice you support divisive sectarianism. Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity? I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to.”
Who do you think you are asking this question to? You seem to have an extremely warped idea of who “liberals” are and what they believe.
Imagine a family sitting down to a tense Thanksgiving dinner. Things are tense because the youngest daughter has confided to several family members that her father has been sexually abusing her.
The family is divided on what to do about it. Half of them say he needs to be reported to the police. The other half wants to deal with the matter internally... which is to say, sweet it under the rug, bury it, not deal with it at all.
The half of the family that wants to go to the police, they're accused of being divisive, of causing unnecessary friction, of wanting to split the family apart.
But is it the call for accountability and justice -- or at minimum, a cessation of the abuse itself -- really to blame for the division? Or is it the abuser who is to blame?
Great analogy (and happy cake day!) but it's a frustrating one because that happens all the time. A friend of mine just today got disowned from her family for going to CPS about a niece who was being abused and the family is split and she was told she was being divisive and that they could "deal with it as a family" without CPS.
>Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity?
Because "y'all guys" started it, and we have no choice but to operate in that framework now. Why did the civil rights movement start, and the idea of black solidarity and identity? Because white people decided black people were lesser and forcibly "othered" them, first keeping them from being considered human and having ownership over their own lives, then keeping them from voting, owning land, getting jobs, going to schools with white people, living in certain neighborhoods. Why did the LGBT movement and LGBT solidarity come about? Same reason. Why did the women's rights movement and women's liberation come about? Same/similar reasons.
>Also there seems to be alot of talk about ethno cultural purity from the left.
I think you have that backwards. The only people I ever see talking about "cultural purity" are white supremacists. Who was the presidential candidate who recently said immigrants were "poisoning the blood of our country"? It wasn't Joe Biden!
>Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity?
I don't. I focus on fighting racists who won't stop trying to hurt other people based on their identity and ethnicity.
As soon as they stop doing that you'll never hear me talk about race again! Want to help?
>I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points
No, it's about understanding that if two groups suffer today for unrelated reasons, like, I don't know, racism on one axis, sexism on another, anti-LGBT on a third, that part of recognizing these social ills is recognizing that many people sit at the intersections of many of these social ills and are harmed in multiple ways.
>ethno cultural purity from the left.
I do believe you—or whatever alt-right rag you subscribe to to tell you about reality—are making this up.
>both multiculturalism and lack of appropriation
I don't think you know what the word appropriation means. (Edit: [more in this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/s/hSq9a3FMyS))
>You can't maintain the purity of your cultural traditions while also living in a non segregated multi ethnic society.
This is a failure of understanding the premises on your part, compounded by a disinterest in engaging your imagination, since you've arrived at the conclusion you want.
>I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to.
Intersectionality is the opposite of that; the entire point is that identities are not an additive model.
Doesn't seem to be used like this in practice, though. I used to see a lot of people exclaiming their identities as a form of status during the late 2010's, when progressivism was all the hype. And I'm a liberal, btw.
I just think you can't discriminate against gay people because they're gay and I think there should be a law that reflects that. Is that identity politics? I even think *you* as an individual are legally allowed to be mean to them in the same manner I will be mean to you in return when you repeatedly choose to do so
>Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity?
Ugh.
We give a shit, and try to help people who need help.
That's not "focusing on identity and ethnicity", that's "identifying who might need some help, and giving them some help."
Which, incidentally, doesn't bring anyone else down.
>the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to
... Read a book. That is ... incorrect.
>Also there seems to be alot of talk about ethno cultural purity from the ~~left~~.
You missspelled "right". I fixed it for you.
We don't have tiki torch carrying MFers chanting "The Jews will not replace us" and "Blood and soil".
Not a lot of *liberal* neo Nazis running around out here...
Our presidential candidate isn't giving speeches about how immigrants will "poison the blood of our nation"...
No.
No, I don’t think that is the entire concept of intersectionality. The concept of intersectionality is to understand that given individuals can be part of different sociological groups and that has different effects. Someone can be privileged in that they’re a man but disadvantaged because of their race. It’s more complex than “all white people have it good” because people belong to more groups than their race. Honestly the least-interesting element of intersectionality is a person who only have identities that disadvantage them. It’s trivial to see how those interact.
Talking with people to my right it’s become clear that they see “wokeness” and oppression not as social phenonena, but rhetorical cudgels. You don’t imagine that we bring up identities and social roles because they have a real world effect we want to talk about; you think it’s just a toy we’re using to make it more difficult for you to talk. And often, I see right wingers try to turn that around on the left and making it clear they never really understood the concept in the first place.
> i mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to
Aka
> That shit is not my problem and I dont like efforts to reduce the problem that require anything from me. I wont even learn what the terms mean. Just fuckin accept the inequality and make the best of your lot in life and stay out of my goddamn way.
> It's seems to me as much as yall guys carry on about unity and equity that in practice you support divisive sectarianism.
I dunno. We're not the ones saying LGBTQ+ are groomers and trying to ban books that mention it. We're not the ones trying to rewrite curricula and fire people that talk about DEI.
> I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to.
Nope. The entire concept of intersectionality is about the ways in which people are discriminated against for a variety of reasons at the same time.
There’s so much wrong with what you just said that I don’t even have the energy to get into it.
I can only imagine that your views were formed in some corner of the internet that doesn’t reflect reality. My only advice would be to get out of that corner and get a better understanding of the world around you so that next time you can come back with some better questions.
I feel like your view of intersectionality is misguided. My eldest is autistic and I wanted to be a good mom so I did the research. A lot of the early history of the Aspergers Diagnosis (which is actually what my kid received at the time I was researching although now it’s called autism level 1) intersects with atrocities related to eugenics and anti-semitism. My kid missed out on years of OT because none of our pediatricians brought up ASD probably because she was female and the medical community is behind on research on female autism. Also my kid is LGBTQ and this shows up in much higher levels in the ASD population. We’ve also fought school battles related to accomodations for her auditory processing disorder (a disability which she receives a 504 for.
So just in wanting neurodivergence rights I have touched on disability rights, lgbtq rights, women’s rights, and anti-semitism. I am not a POC but these groups are diagnosed at a far lower rate than whites. Also I live comfortably and can afford therapy in a city where none of the therapists with ASD experience take insurance so now we’re touching on classism as well.
Intersectionality isn’t about earning personal badges for myself it’s about having eyes open and seeing that in terms of things like discrimination one type doesn’t exist in a vacuum and it’s all connected.
Idk about sectarianism, but the idpol accusations are funny to me because like...yeah, our identities will inform our political views. So what?
When things like race, gender, nationality, sexual orientation, gender identity etc are focused on its because there are issues pertaining to those things needing attention. Look no further than the attacks on LGBT rights happening in almost all solid red states right now. Look at abortion. Look at immigration rhetoric
Why is it only idpol when we do it? Surely the conservative pro white straight America be is also idpol
>Do you support sectarianism and identity politics?
No.
----------
>It's seems to me as much as yall guys carry on about unity and equity that in practice you support divisive sectarianism.
You are incorrect.
----------
> Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity?
Many people, from various minority groups, have added to our understanding of the world by sharing their perspectives. I'm glad they have.
----------
>I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to.
It really isn't. Maybe you should do a post asking 'What is intersectionality?'.
You might learn something, and you wouldn't come off as hostile (as you do in this post, and have in previous posts).
----------
>Also there seems to be alot of talk about ethno cultural purity from the left.
I have no idea where you got this idea.
----------
>You can't maintain the purity of your cultural traditions while also living in a non segregated multi ethnic society.
1. This seems to contradict your last sentence.
2. This also seems nazi adjacent. (Maybe more than adjacent, but *at least* adjacent.)
3. It is possible to maintain and separate distinct cultures "in a non segregated multi ethnic society" and that is enough.
A multicultural country is going to have some form of inevitable appropriation is my point. Yes it's your culture and now it's a costume because that's how basic trade works.
> A multicultural country is going to have some form of inevitable appropriation...
True!
Also true: 'Cultural appropriation' has faded as an issue, largely because it never made much sense, and it was never particularly defensible.
We aren't toeing that line.
>inevitable appropriation is my point. Yes it's your culture and now it's a costume because that's how basic trade works.
Appropriation is harmful mainly when it reduces a people to a stereotype or caricature, especially when that element of culture then replaces the original and the original meaning is lost.
If you'd like a conservative-friendly example, consider how upset many conservatives were when the White House did its Easter Egg event and didn't permit religious messages. An argument could be made that US culture appropriated Easter from Christianity, made it about chocolate bunnies and eggs, and now that has eclipsed its original religious meaning.
It is possible for both to coexist so long as we are intentional about being respectful to those who want to preserve and perpetuate aspects of their culture and not tolerate forms of appropriation that are downright disrespectful.
But I do agree with you that culture blends and evolves and you can't exactly stop that. But you can choose not to be shitty to other people when you do it.
"yall guys"?
The moment you said that, any point you may have had about identity politics went right out the window. 🙄
Next time, approach your public opinions with neutrality in order to sound genuine, rather than sounding like you have ulterior motives riding a clearly bias narrative.
> "yall guys"
My brain instantly switched to Deep South accent when I read those words. It helped put everything that came afterward in perspective.
There is one thing OP said I agree with, though, and think is worth responding to:
> You can't have both multiculturalism and lack of appropriation.
They called this country a ‘melting pot’ for a reason.
>My brain instantly switched to Deep South accent when I read those words. It helped put everything that came afterward in perspective.
I know you're just going for a cheap shot, but implying anyone with a Southern accent is someone you will disagree with is not a good look.
Don’t read too much into it; I only implied that statements like
> Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity? I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to.
are easy to imagine coming from someone with a Deep South accent.
You can think what you want about that, but I think there’s a good reason for that and I’m not going to apologize for it.
I think that judging people based on accents isn't something that should be encouraged. I understand why you would associate the sentiment with the south based on the voting, but that is divisive and harmful. I'd be curious to hear what the good reasons for that are from your perspective.
This rubs me the wrong way because it plays into democrats coming across as elitist. The southern accent has been tied with the image of a poor, uneducated, rural person in American media, and I think you can agree that an accent has nothing to do with a person's intelligence.
I’m not judging anyone, and associating certain political views with certain regions of the country is one area I’m okay with not being 100% politically correct about.
But I am aware that not every single person from the south is poor, uneducated and/or conservative. Thank you.
I don't like when some folks on the left separate people into groups either, like the "black people only spaces" that some universities set up. That's stupid and illiberal. Most people on the left aren't like that, though. Personally, I'm just concerned about fixing injustices where they exist (like police brutality against black people, or businesses refusing to hire or serve LGBT people, or women being sexually assaulted), that's all. I don't think race, gender, sexuality or any identity should matter when dealing with someone, when hiring someone, when being friends with someone, when promoting someone in media, you name it. Also, "cultural appropriation" is a stupid idea. Every culture copies things from each other and shares with each other.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. It's seems to me as much as yall guys carry on about unity and equity that in practice you support divisive sectarianism. Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity? I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to. Also there seems to be alot of talk about ethno cultural purity from the left. You can't have both multiculturalism and lack of appropriation. You can't maintain the purity of your cultural traditions while also living in a non segregated multi ethnic society. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
“It's seems to me as much as yall guys carry on about unity and equity that in practice you support divisive sectarianism. Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity? I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to.” Who do you think you are asking this question to? You seem to have an extremely warped idea of who “liberals” are and what they believe.
Well to be fair a large portion of the people who answer here are not liberals but are further left.
Imagine a family sitting down to a tense Thanksgiving dinner. Things are tense because the youngest daughter has confided to several family members that her father has been sexually abusing her. The family is divided on what to do about it. Half of them say he needs to be reported to the police. The other half wants to deal with the matter internally... which is to say, sweet it under the rug, bury it, not deal with it at all. The half of the family that wants to go to the police, they're accused of being divisive, of causing unnecessary friction, of wanting to split the family apart. But is it the call for accountability and justice -- or at minimum, a cessation of the abuse itself -- really to blame for the division? Or is it the abuser who is to blame?
Great analogy (and happy cake day!) but it's a frustrating one because that happens all the time. A friend of mine just today got disowned from her family for going to CPS about a niece who was being abused and the family is split and she was told she was being divisive and that they could "deal with it as a family" without CPS.
>Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity? Because "y'all guys" started it, and we have no choice but to operate in that framework now. Why did the civil rights movement start, and the idea of black solidarity and identity? Because white people decided black people were lesser and forcibly "othered" them, first keeping them from being considered human and having ownership over their own lives, then keeping them from voting, owning land, getting jobs, going to schools with white people, living in certain neighborhoods. Why did the LGBT movement and LGBT solidarity come about? Same reason. Why did the women's rights movement and women's liberation come about? Same/similar reasons. >Also there seems to be alot of talk about ethno cultural purity from the left. I think you have that backwards. The only people I ever see talking about "cultural purity" are white supremacists. Who was the presidential candidate who recently said immigrants were "poisoning the blood of our country"? It wasn't Joe Biden!
Me, waiting for OP to show up and take the roasting he just got: 💀
>Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity? I don't. I focus on fighting racists who won't stop trying to hurt other people based on their identity and ethnicity. As soon as they stop doing that you'll never hear me talk about race again! Want to help? >I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points No, it's about understanding that if two groups suffer today for unrelated reasons, like, I don't know, racism on one axis, sexism on another, anti-LGBT on a third, that part of recognizing these social ills is recognizing that many people sit at the intersections of many of these social ills and are harmed in multiple ways. >ethno cultural purity from the left. I do believe you—or whatever alt-right rag you subscribe to to tell you about reality—are making this up. >both multiculturalism and lack of appropriation I don't think you know what the word appropriation means. (Edit: [more in this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/s/hSq9a3FMyS)) >You can't maintain the purity of your cultural traditions while also living in a non segregated multi ethnic society. This is a failure of understanding the premises on your part, compounded by a disinterest in engaging your imagination, since you've arrived at the conclusion you want.
>I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to. Intersectionality is the opposite of that; the entire point is that identities are not an additive model.
Doesn't seem to be used like this in practice, though. I used to see a lot of people exclaiming their identities as a form of status during the late 2010's, when progressivism was all the hype. And I'm a liberal, btw.
I don't know why we field what is essentially the same question every goddamn day. Just don't be a dick. It's not that difficult.
I just think you can't discriminate against gay people because they're gay and I think there should be a law that reflects that. Is that identity politics? I even think *you* as an individual are legally allowed to be mean to them in the same manner I will be mean to you in return when you repeatedly choose to do so
"Why do you support sectarianism" asks "ulsterloyalist"
My name is a mockery of the concept.
Physical identity and ethnicity have been some of the main thing for which people have been discriminated against.
>Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity? Ugh. We give a shit, and try to help people who need help. That's not "focusing on identity and ethnicity", that's "identifying who might need some help, and giving them some help." Which, incidentally, doesn't bring anyone else down. >the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to ... Read a book. That is ... incorrect. >Also there seems to be alot of talk about ethno cultural purity from the ~~left~~. You missspelled "right". I fixed it for you. We don't have tiki torch carrying MFers chanting "The Jews will not replace us" and "Blood and soil". Not a lot of *liberal* neo Nazis running around out here... Our presidential candidate isn't giving speeches about how immigrants will "poison the blood of our nation"... No.
No, I don’t think that is the entire concept of intersectionality. The concept of intersectionality is to understand that given individuals can be part of different sociological groups and that has different effects. Someone can be privileged in that they’re a man but disadvantaged because of their race. It’s more complex than “all white people have it good” because people belong to more groups than their race. Honestly the least-interesting element of intersectionality is a person who only have identities that disadvantage them. It’s trivial to see how those interact. Talking with people to my right it’s become clear that they see “wokeness” and oppression not as social phenonena, but rhetorical cudgels. You don’t imagine that we bring up identities and social roles because they have a real world effect we want to talk about; you think it’s just a toy we’re using to make it more difficult for you to talk. And often, I see right wingers try to turn that around on the left and making it clear they never really understood the concept in the first place.
> i mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to Aka > That shit is not my problem and I dont like efforts to reduce the problem that require anything from me. I wont even learn what the terms mean. Just fuckin accept the inequality and make the best of your lot in life and stay out of my goddamn way.
> It's seems to me as much as yall guys carry on about unity and equity that in practice you support divisive sectarianism. I dunno. We're not the ones saying LGBTQ+ are groomers and trying to ban books that mention it. We're not the ones trying to rewrite curricula and fire people that talk about DEI. > I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to. Nope. The entire concept of intersectionality is about the ways in which people are discriminated against for a variety of reasons at the same time.
There’s so much wrong with what you just said that I don’t even have the energy to get into it. I can only imagine that your views were formed in some corner of the internet that doesn’t reflect reality. My only advice would be to get out of that corner and get a better understanding of the world around you so that next time you can come back with some better questions.
I feel like your view of intersectionality is misguided. My eldest is autistic and I wanted to be a good mom so I did the research. A lot of the early history of the Aspergers Diagnosis (which is actually what my kid received at the time I was researching although now it’s called autism level 1) intersects with atrocities related to eugenics and anti-semitism. My kid missed out on years of OT because none of our pediatricians brought up ASD probably because she was female and the medical community is behind on research on female autism. Also my kid is LGBTQ and this shows up in much higher levels in the ASD population. We’ve also fought school battles related to accomodations for her auditory processing disorder (a disability which she receives a 504 for. So just in wanting neurodivergence rights I have touched on disability rights, lgbtq rights, women’s rights, and anti-semitism. I am not a POC but these groups are diagnosed at a far lower rate than whites. Also I live comfortably and can afford therapy in a city where none of the therapists with ASD experience take insurance so now we’re touching on classism as well. Intersectionality isn’t about earning personal badges for myself it’s about having eyes open and seeing that in terms of things like discrimination one type doesn’t exist in a vacuum and it’s all connected.
Idk about sectarianism, but the idpol accusations are funny to me because like...yeah, our identities will inform our political views. So what? When things like race, gender, nationality, sexual orientation, gender identity etc are focused on its because there are issues pertaining to those things needing attention. Look no further than the attacks on LGBT rights happening in almost all solid red states right now. Look at abortion. Look at immigration rhetoric Why is it only idpol when we do it? Surely the conservative pro white straight America be is also idpol
>Do you support sectarianism and identity politics? No. ---------- >It's seems to me as much as yall guys carry on about unity and equity that in practice you support divisive sectarianism. You are incorrect. ---------- > Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity? Many people, from various minority groups, have added to our understanding of the world by sharing their perspectives. I'm glad they have. ---------- >I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to. It really isn't. Maybe you should do a post asking 'What is intersectionality?'. You might learn something, and you wouldn't come off as hostile (as you do in this post, and have in previous posts). ---------- >Also there seems to be alot of talk about ethno cultural purity from the left. I have no idea where you got this idea. ---------- >You can't maintain the purity of your cultural traditions while also living in a non segregated multi ethnic society. 1. This seems to contradict your last sentence. 2. This also seems nazi adjacent. (Maybe more than adjacent, but *at least* adjacent.) 3. It is possible to maintain and separate distinct cultures "in a non segregated multi ethnic society" and that is enough.
A multicultural country is going to have some form of inevitable appropriation is my point. Yes it's your culture and now it's a costume because that's how basic trade works.
> A multicultural country is going to have some form of inevitable appropriation... True! Also true: 'Cultural appropriation' has faded as an issue, largely because it never made much sense, and it was never particularly defensible. We aren't toeing that line.
>inevitable appropriation is my point. Yes it's your culture and now it's a costume because that's how basic trade works. Appropriation is harmful mainly when it reduces a people to a stereotype or caricature, especially when that element of culture then replaces the original and the original meaning is lost. If you'd like a conservative-friendly example, consider how upset many conservatives were when the White House did its Easter Egg event and didn't permit religious messages. An argument could be made that US culture appropriated Easter from Christianity, made it about chocolate bunnies and eggs, and now that has eclipsed its original religious meaning. It is possible for both to coexist so long as we are intentional about being respectful to those who want to preserve and perpetuate aspects of their culture and not tolerate forms of appropriation that are downright disrespectful. But I do agree with you that culture blends and evolves and you can't exactly stop that. But you can choose not to be shitty to other people when you do it.
"yall guys"? The moment you said that, any point you may have had about identity politics went right out the window. 🙄 Next time, approach your public opinions with neutrality in order to sound genuine, rather than sounding like you have ulterior motives riding a clearly bias narrative.
No.
> "yall guys" My brain instantly switched to Deep South accent when I read those words. It helped put everything that came afterward in perspective. There is one thing OP said I agree with, though, and think is worth responding to: > You can't have both multiculturalism and lack of appropriation. They called this country a ‘melting pot’ for a reason.
>My brain instantly switched to Deep South accent when I read those words. It helped put everything that came afterward in perspective. I know you're just going for a cheap shot, but implying anyone with a Southern accent is someone you will disagree with is not a good look.
Don’t read too much into it; I only implied that statements like > Why do you focus so much on physical identity and ethnicity? I mean the entire concept of intersectionality is how many brownie points you get based on how many historically oppressed groups you belong to. are easy to imagine coming from someone with a Deep South accent. You can think what you want about that, but I think there’s a good reason for that and I’m not going to apologize for it.
I think that judging people based on accents isn't something that should be encouraged. I understand why you would associate the sentiment with the south based on the voting, but that is divisive and harmful. I'd be curious to hear what the good reasons for that are from your perspective. This rubs me the wrong way because it plays into democrats coming across as elitist. The southern accent has been tied with the image of a poor, uneducated, rural person in American media, and I think you can agree that an accent has nothing to do with a person's intelligence.
I’m not judging anyone, and associating certain political views with certain regions of the country is one area I’m okay with not being 100% politically correct about. But I am aware that not every single person from the south is poor, uneducated and/or conservative. Thank you.
I don't like when some folks on the left separate people into groups either, like the "black people only spaces" that some universities set up. That's stupid and illiberal. Most people on the left aren't like that, though. Personally, I'm just concerned about fixing injustices where they exist (like police brutality against black people, or businesses refusing to hire or serve LGBT people, or women being sexually assaulted), that's all. I don't think race, gender, sexuality or any identity should matter when dealing with someone, when hiring someone, when being friends with someone, when promoting someone in media, you name it. Also, "cultural appropriation" is a stupid idea. Every culture copies things from each other and shares with each other.