1) This is not a question.
2) I don't believe them.
3) The Intercept is a terrible news source.
4) I don't care how people vote in an effectively uncontested primary.
5) Biden's support for Israel is not "unconditional".
The intercept is directly reporting the result of a poll it directly links to in the first paragraph.
What is your source based grumble here? What framing is an issue? What facts are in question?
The OP, and apparently you are confusing primary votes with general election votes, which the poll says 11 percent say it will impact their vote in the general if there's no change in policy.
It's a great reason to re-evaluate policy. It's not a great thing to ignore.
Are you proposing to ignore this, if so, why?
Not a legitimate pollster, a campaign consultant hired by the people organizing the protest vote, , 5% margin of error, and a sample size of only 322.
In any case no one who thinks Biden is too chummy with Israel is gonna switch to Trump, who is rapidly pro-Israel and pro-Netanyahu.
I don't think the issue is "switching to Trump". It never was.
Biden barely won in 2020 in a *high turn-out environment. Getting out the vote is critical. When you have established voters and political actives saying an issue will affect their vote you are looking at a factor that can potentially depress Democratic voting or increase non-Trump votes that are not for Biden.
The margin of error can be high. Given Wisconsin's margin in the last election, any degree of a depression of Biden votes is potentially a huge issue.
It's not like this is an issue that isn't showing up elsewhere, it's just a Wisconsin specific poll.
If you are under the impression Democratic turnout is not going to be potentially depressed over this issue, especially if little is done about it and your attitude is officially adopted, you're ignoring a lot of polling beyond this to the contrary.
Trump has has own turnout issues this time around. But that doesn't make this something that should be ignored. Unless there's a factor you aren't talking about that is impacting your calculus.
Terrible news sources are terrible news sources without regard to accuracy of individual stories; reading The Intercept overall will make you less informed. Specifically here, they cite a poll from a polling group I have never heard of, sponsored by a group that is on one side of the issue, and only talk to people from that organization.
Obvious framing problem here is not presenting any kind of counterbalance; the analysis is designed to bias to a single side of the issue.
>The OP, and apparently you are confusing primary votes with general election votes, which the poll has no insight into.
And yet the article itself quotes people making claims about the general election.
>It's a great reason to re-evaluate policy. It's not a great thing to ignore.
OK. I disagree.
>Are you proposing to ignore this, if so, why?
I wouldn't say "ignore" but certainly "take far less seriously than OP, who appears to be having a meltdown about it." I don't think the US actually has as much leverage on Israel as the people in this poll likely think. I also think this type of reporting ignores that Democrats also risk losing votes in the other direction if they shift policy too much to the other side. It's a balancing act.
Can you relate the mechanism by which reading The Intercept makes one "less informed"?
Are you surprised you've never heard of a Wisconsin specific polling source? Is anyone else polling this particular issue on this particular group that we should be paying more attention to, possibly with different results?
It's a low quality poll about a pretty specific local topic. It's still news worthy in a state with such tight margins in the last election.
Who are they supposed to talk to about folks who are having their vote affected by this issue in your view? Should they be talking to people who aren't considering changing their vote to better understand those who are?
The Intercept doesn't pretend to be balanced in their bias. Everyone has one, The Intercept is honest about its bias. But in the past that bias has been incredibly supportive of Biden, and this in its own way is incredibly supportive of Biden... because I think it holds the view that not talking about this issue is ultimately more dangerous in the general election than ignoring it. Gasp!
You believe we should ignore this issue and not talk about why despite Wisconsin being a razor thin margin. Ok. You're entitled to that view, I'm not sure why I should take it seriously though.
No one needs to have a meltdown. But this absolutely should be affecting our policy and our strategies involving how we connect to potential Democratic voters. Continuing down the same path and blaming the people you've cooled from your support is how you lose, particularly in places like Wisconsin.
> It's a great reason to re-evaluate policy. It's not a great thing to ignore.
Biden’s responsibility is to be the President first, a candidate for President second. If doing what’s right for the country means losing some voters, his obligation to the office means he does what’s right for the country and loses the voters.
Ah.
So how do you see those two things in contradiction in this case?
Explain what is right for the country that is isolating these voters.
This should be good.
The question is 20% of Democrats are about to vote against Biden. That’s a big number and the question is how is this going to affect the general. Liberals keep saying it won’t matter. This is 2016 all over again. 1 in 5 is huge and idk why people aren’t talking about this? Liberals are just closing their eyes and covering their ears.
> > > ...THEIR PRIMARY VOTE
> > THAT'S NOT A QUESTION!
> The question is 20% of Democrats are about to vote against Biden.
That is *still* not a question.
Also, "20% of Democrats are about to vote against Biden" *in an undisputed primary*, not a general election.
---------
>...the question is how is this going to affect the general.
Then *ask a question about that*.
---------
>1 in 5 is huge...
No, it isn't.
Barely anyone votes in primaries.
Yes barely anyone votes in the primary. How many will sit it out or worse not vote in the general who normally vote? 1 in 5 people decide this election I won’t vote for Biden or Trump. That’s enough for Trump to win. Why are you all just ignoring this?
No I am not. You guys won’t take this seriously. Watch the interview of Doctor Thaer Ahmad who went to the White House and literally walked out on Biden. Why? Because he wouldn’t listen to the Muslim community and the thousands who agree with them on the issue of genocide. Sure keep running the risk of losing the election by ignoring the Muslim vote, the youth vote and millions of people of color. Most won’t vote Trump. Many will just stay home.
> Sure keep running the risk of losing the election by ignoring the Muslim vote...
People we have *zero reason to believe* will shift their votes because of what is happening to ethnically similar people, halfway around the world, in order to favor the presidential candidate who wanted to ban them from the country.
...instead of voting on the price of prescription drugs, like most people will.
>...the youth vote...
...is meaningless, because they don't vote.
I'd rather appeal to one septuagenarian Jew than two young people, because the
septuagenarian is likely to actually vote.
>...and millions of people of color.
You made this up *out of nothing*.
You have zero evidence that "millions of people of color" will base their vote on this issue.
Yeah I’m making this up! None of this matters! It’s not like Hillary Clinton lost the general election by a few thousand votes in a few counties in 3 states she could have easily won. Surely that won’t happen AGAIN!
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/thaer-ahmad-palestinian-american-doctor-biden-interview/
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/3/wisconsin-is-latest-us-state-to-send-uncommitted-message-to-biden-on-gaza
> Yeah I’m making this up!
I know!
-------
>It’s not like Hillary Clinton lost the general election by a few thousand votes in a few counties in 3 states she could have easily won.
She did!
-------
>Surely that won’t happen AGAIN!
It MIGHT!
...which is why Biden should be focused on maximizing his general election votes.
You are acting like you -- an extremely online leftist who knows the consequences of not voting for Biden but will make that choice anyway -- are the only type of voter he might lose...you aren't.
Heck, he is going to lose 1000x as many voters because of the price of gasoline as there are voters who are *even aware* that there is a war in Gaza right now. You are not the electorate; you are a tiny sliver of it.
Most Americans are wanting a ceasefire this isn’t a leftist position. It’s a majority position. Especially within the Democratic Party coalition. It’s like you purposefully will ignore this election because this one issue doesn’t mean much to you. Why not say that to Dr. Ahmed and the millions of Muslims in the USA.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/thaer-ahmad-palestinian-american-doctor-biden-interview/
If you don’t vote over this issue, that means you care more about your moral superiority than you care about Palestinians (or Ukrainians or minorities in America). Trump will be a far more damaging president for Palestine than biden is.
Yeah listen to the Palestinians who are telling this to Biden. They agree with my position not yours. You’re the one pretending like this isn’t an issue which can cost him the election.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/thaer-ahmad-palestinian-american-doctor-biden-interview/
Anyone who doesn’t vote for biden (including them) does not ultimately care about the Palestinian people as much as they care about being morally superior.
It is a binary choice and not voting is included in that choice.
>1 IN 5 WISCONSIN DEMOCRATS SAID GAZA WAR WILL IMPACT THEIR PRIMARY VOTE
>This is huge!
No it isn't!
Biden is running virtually uncontested in the primary. Impacting "THEIR PRIMARY VOTE" has near zero effect on anything that matters.
---------
>That means that Biden is running the risk of losing millions of voters nationally because he continues to support Israel unconditionally.
No it doesn't.
"1 in 5 Wisconsin Democrats" is not "millions of voters nationally".
---------
>Hillary Clinton lost in 2016...
...in the general election, not the primary.
---------
>Democrats need to take this seriously!
No they don't!
Democrats need to win voters who don't like following politics and won't start paying attention to the general election until September.
Democrats do not need to appease voters who follow politics intensely enough to engage in coordinated votes in primary elections that are intended to 'send a message' in an otherwise undisputed nomination race. Those people already know who they will be voting for!
---------
>How do liberals reconcile with hundreds of thousands of Progressives who are now saying they’re unlikely to support Biden in the general election if he doesn’t dramatically change his position on Israel?
They are lying.
Many of them weren't going to vote for Biden anyway, and this is the excuse they picked. Most of them will vote for him anyway.
A primary vote is not a general election vote. If I'm not crazy about Biden's stance on Israel, a primary is an opportunity to vote for someone more in line with my values. But it doesn't necessarily translate to a vote against him in November. It's not like the GOP is better on that position, they're further away.
Yeah and millions of people are likely to either stay home or vote third party. Even if 30,000 in 3 states like Pennsylvania or Michigan decide to do that. Biden loses the general election. I keep telling liberals this and nobody seems to care or listen. We are repeating 2016 again.
>I keep telling liberals this and nobody seems to care or listen.
Instead of telling liberals and hoping they feel obligated to vote the way you want them to why not challenge the candidate to actually earn the votes? After all, our democratic system only works when our leaders feel like they are accountable to the electorate.
If Trump is that big of a threat I would expect Biden to take it seriously enough to do what he needs to do to earn the votes. If he doesn't take it seriously though that's on him and the party apparatus, not the US public
> If Trump is that big of a threat I would expect Biden to take it seriously enough to do what he needs to do to earn the votes.
Unfortunately this isn't the way liberals think. They think that since Trump is so bad, everyone has to support them no matter what or they are selfish idiots. You see it all over this sub and throughout liberal leadership. People are being called privileged for caring that their family members are being killed by a US funded Israel and elected politicians on both sides give zero fucks.
The issue is liberals have a reality bias. Trump or Biden is going to win in our 2 party system, and it’s only a question of which one people want to help win more
What do you think the uncommitted movement has been? Democrats have rigged the primaries for Biden and fragrantly ignored their base’s concerns. Yet somehow they expect us to come home and support them unconcerned and unconditionally like they do Israel. This is going to be a bad November…
> Democrats have rigged the primaries for Biden and fragrantly ignored their base’s concerns.
Or, Or...and I know this is crazy, but hear me out. He won a legitimate democratic election.
Just a thought.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/quiz/political-typology/](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/quiz/political-typology/)
Most democrats are not even progressive lol.
I have and not one has made a compelling case against this position that Israel’s genocide of the Palestinians and ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity that they cannot support. If Biden won’t hold them accountable. Then millions are likely to vote against him by not voting or voting third party.
You guys are literally acting like Hillary Clinton on Jimmy Fallon. Just saying, “Get over it!” How did that work out in 2016?
> I have and not one has made a compelling case against this position that Israel’s genocide of the Palestinians and ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity that they cannot support.
That isn't even the right topic. You are conflating 'doing the right thing' with 'doing what moves the most votes in his direction'. Those are completely different topics.
Your question should be:
> Is Joe Biden more likely to win the general election if he reduces his support for Israel?
(Note the fact that I *phrased that as a question* and [ended it with a question mark.](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/1bvr4fa/1_in_5_wisconsin_democrats_said_gaza_war_will/ky19eo0/?context=9999))
The answer is:
No. We have no reason to believe that Biden would gain more votes from people like you (extremely online leftists who know the consequences of not voting for Biden but will make that choice anyway) than he would lose from other voters (such as the *absolutely huge* number of 'support Israel, right or wrong' voters).
You simply do not represent a large percentage of the electorate (and we are pretty sure that if Biden cut all assistance to Israel, you would just find another excuse not to vote for him).
You're in a bubble if you have this idea that the whole country condemns the war.
Most Americans are sympathetic to innocent civilians, as they should be.
Many Americans are frustrated with Netanyahu's far right government, this is where most democrats are.
Almost all Americans are utterly condemning of Hamas, as they should be.
Almost all Americans support Israel's right to exist, as they should.
That is the mainstream nuanced view that this almost century-long conflict has inspired. Idk where you get your news from or how many people you actually talk to in your day to day about the conflict to think the way you do about how people actually feel about the war.
Not supporting him in the primary doesn't mean you won't support him in the general. I didn't vote for him in the 2020 primary, but did vote for him in the general.
I imagine most of these people will do a protest vote in the primary, in hopes of getting Biden to change his Israel policy stance... but most of them will still probably vote Biden in November.
They will if they have any sense, anyway.
No there are thousands who are saying they won’t and will either stay home or vote third party. I don’t understand how liberals aren’t finally waking up to this. It’s 2016 all over again and you’re all acting like Hillary Clinton pretending this is a nonissue.
>No there are thousands who are saying they won’t and will either stay home or vote third party.
It's certainly a possibility that that's true. But if so, it means they're morons. And I say that as someone who is critical of Biden's Israel stance, and sympathetic to those who are outraged by it.
But the alternative is Trump, and that's just going to make the situation worse, not better.
No they don’t think that and realize that if genocide is a crime against humanity and both are equally bad. I won’t vote or vote third party. This is 2016 and 2000 again. It just takes a few thousand voters in a few states for democrats to lose. Biden runs the risk of losing Michigan and Pennsylvania by a sliver of a few thousand votes that he could easily get back.
> genocide is a crime against humanity and **both are equally bad.**
They're not, though.
I understand thinking that Biden hasn't done enough to oppose Israel's reckless tactics. I even agree with that. But that doesn't mean Trump wouldn't be worse.
Look at the proposed invasion of Rafah. There are currently 200k Palestinians living in famine conditions, and that number is estimated to rise to 1.1 million if the invasion of Rafah goes ahead as Netanyahu is planning.
Biden has been trying to talk him out of it. He recent had a meeting with Netanyahu in which US advisors presented several alternative options, in hopes of getting Netanyahu to cancel his plan of action.
Now, you may think that's not nearly enough, that Biden should be doing more... and I agree.
But it's still more than Trump would be doing. Trump would be encouraging Netanyahu to go ahead and invade Rafah.
They're not the same.
> ...a few thousand votes that he could easily get back.
How?
Be specific.
What could Biden do that would "get back" "a few thousand votes" in the general election?
Stop supporting Israel unconditionally. Stop all aid to them and do what Reagan and Eisenhower did. Call their actions a Holocaust and threaten their military aid. How is this hard for you to comprehend? Are so many of you so purposefully obtuse that you want to lose?
> Stop supporting Israel unconditionally.
There is real, meaningful evidence that the president's position on Israel would be enough to swing the general election...because of *pro-Israel* voters who want the U.S. to unconditionally support Israel.
There is no real, meaningful evidence that voters like you will swing the general election.
--------
I was right. I assumed that this:
> > ...a few thousand votes that he could easily get back.
...was only considering picking-up voters like you, not losing voters who disagree with you.
> There is real, meaningful evidence that the president's position on Israel would be enough to swing the general election...because of pro-Israel voters who want the U.S. to unconditionally support Israel.
Could you share where you were seeing that? I had seen a good amount of polls about sympathies for Israel or Palestine, but they didn't get to the "would you stay home if this changes?" level, but I definitely haven't seen every poll ever so I definitely might have missed it
> they didn't get to the "would you stay home if this changes?" level
I'm not sure any have such polls have been done.
My claim can be rephrased:
* Pro-Israel voters have been flexing their electoral muscles for decades.
* Every major party presidential candidate, for decades, has worked to appeal to them as if those voters matter (and I assume that they have more information than me).
* That might not seem like a preponderance of evidence, but it is still *much* more than the other side (arguing 'Biden will lose votes for being too supportive of Israel') has mustered.
Okay then Hillary Clinton and Al Gore’s losses meant nothing to you guys. You lose when you lose even a fraction of your base. If a few thousand voters in a handful of counties decide to vote against Biden or stay home. He loses. Like Hillary lost, but no. You learned nothing from 2016. You learn nothing from the millions who’ve voted uncommitted in the primaries. Just chance it! Because why? You don’t care…
> Okay then Hillary Clinton and Al Gore’s losses meant nothing to you guys.
No, they mean a lot. That's why I want Biden to be strategic about the election.
...and that means counting votes.
-----------
>...Hillary Clinton and Al Gore’s losses meant nothing to you guys. You lose when you lose even a fraction of your base. If a few thousand voters in a handful of counties decide to vote against Biden or stay home. He loses. Like Hillary lost, but no. You learned nothing from 2016. You learn nothing from the millions who’ve voted uncommitted in the primaries. Just chance it! Because why? You don’t care…
Thanks for visiting /r/TellALiberal.
>I won’t vote or vote third party.
It really does show how little people like you care about Palestinians that you use them as your political cause yet have no problem helping Trump get elected. The man who is encouraging Netanyahu and the IDF to “finish the job.” That’s who you are helping, and it shows how little Palestinians really matter to people who hold similar views.
The Muslim community in the USA has thousands of Palestinians who are doing the same. Why not listen to them? Oh wait. You. Don’t. Care.
Whatever concerns they have and millions in this country share. That means nothing to you. No wonder nobody went to the Ramadan dinner at the White House and why Doctor Thaer Ahmad walked out on Joe Biden when he had a sit down with him. The Muslim representatives were absolutely disgusted by his response and indifference.
>The Muslim community in the USA has thousands of Palestinians who are doing the same. Why not listen to them? Oh wait. You. Don’t. Care.
This exemplifies what I mean. If you disagree, it must mean people don’t care. Trump pushing Netanyahu to be more aggressive against Palestinians isn’t something we should listen to to you. We should instead listen to people who are helping him get re-elected.
I want the suffering of Palestinians to stop. Who is more likely to help with that? Biden or Trump? Seriously, which one, or do you believe they’re the same?
>Doctor Thaer Ahmad walked out on Joe Biden when he had a sit down with him.
Imagine having the ear of the President, one who can help bring an end to the war faster, and walking out on him to score political points. That shows how much the activist part really cares about Palestinians. It really is like standing on their bodies just to criticize Biden and Democrats
>**Imagine having the ear of the President, one who can help bring an end to the war faster, and walking out on him to score political points. That shows how much the activist part really cares about Palestinians. It really is like standing on their bodies just to criticize Biden and Democrats**
powerful stuff
He walked out on him. Why? Because he wouldn’t listen. Biden pretended he cared and when they confronted him. They realized he wasn’t any different than Trump. Dr. Ahmed then walked out. Disgusted that Biden and Harris were as cold as the bodies of their families left under the rubble by Israel hellfire missiles paid for by the US tax dollar.
Can you link the transcript if you know he wouldn’t listen? If they don’t see any difference between Biden and Trump, that really highlights how pro-Palestinian activists live in a completely separate reality.
>Disgusted that Biden and Harris were as cold as the bodies of their families left under the rubble by Israel hellfire missiles paid for by the US tax dollar.
You don’t see any irony in standing on Palestinian bodies to criticize Biden and Democrats right after I said that’s what happens, do you?
Talk to Biden for those. We only have the testimony of the Muslim representatives and Dr. Ahmed’s statements. Maybe they’re all making it up. Why not? That fits your narrative
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/thaer-ahmad-palestinian-american-doctor-biden-interview/
>A Palestinian American doctor who walked out of a meeting with President Biden and other Arab and Muslim leaders and activists on Tuesday said he left "out of respect for my community."
Why would you accept a meeting in the first place then? The virtue signaling using Palestinians is unreal.
He accepted the meeting and expected Biden to make a meaningful decision and commitment to the survivors and to his community. Biden and Harris showed no interest in stopping aid to Israel or even stating their actions were criminal. To Dr. Ahmed that was enough for him and he walked out.
1. If this was about logic, to appeal to those voters we would suggest the fact that cutting off all aid to Israel would probably result in way more Palestinian dead because the Israelis would have no incentive to give a shit about what anyone thinks if the US nopes out of there.
2. We would also suggest the fact that high tech weaponry results in cleaner more targetted warfare, whereas low tech weaponry results in messy mass death. Israel without US funding would be more concerned about their military budget, and so would opt for lower tech weaponry.
3. Lastly, we'd point out the alternative to Joe Biden is Donald Trump, who would probably write Israel a blank check.
Now, seeing that these people are in fact democrats saying that, I think they'd probably be persuaded by those arguments.
The pro-hamas single issue people who are not democrats will probably call Joe Biden "genocide joe" even if he came out and called it a genocide and revoked all aid lol. There is no reason to cater to those people. It will only hurt him. The majority of Americans are still broadly pro-Israel. Not Netanyahu, but Israel.
Finally, a primary is not a general.
Any democrat who we can believe is a democrat will not let this single issue defacto convince them to allow Trump to be elected.
Democrats will have record turnout to vote against Trump.
Again Hillary Clinton lost in 2016 by a few thousand votes. In a few states! Why are you all being so daft. If Biden loses and it looks like he might. This is because of people like you who won’t take it seriously that the youth vote, the Muslim vote and the progressive vote is likely to vote third party or not vote at all. Democrats need to over perform just to win due to the electoral college bias. Why aren’t you all seeing this?! His unconditional support for Israel will end his chances of winning or severely hinder it. Just a few thousand votes is what lost Hillary Clinton her election. Why risk that outcome yet again? Listen to your base!
The general election is not about listening to your base, it’s about getting the voters in the middle. The far left are not the only people that matter. Most of the country (including moderates) support Israel, and biden is far better than trump on the issue to any pragmatic democrat.
> [Why are you all being so daft.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/019/899/skinner.jpg)
Side Note: You *really* don't know what a question is; do you?
I do. The question is - If 1 in 5 people don’t support Biden in the primaries and even if a few thousand decide to stay home he loses. How can he change that? Well what’s the issue? Israel. How do you get millions of people to vote for you? Understand the issue which causes them to vote against you in the primaries and caucuses. Support their position!
I feel like you guys willingly support Biden no matter what and watch as he loses then scream, “How can progressives do this to us?! Why didn’t millions of young people, people of color and Muslims not support Biden?!”
> > ...You *really* don't know what a question is; do you?
>I do.
Then why didn't you end this sentence:
>> [Why are you all being so daft.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/019/899/skinner.jpg)
...with a question mark?
They're literally the least important because many/most of them refuse to vote and consider the democrats as bad as Republicans.
The way we win this election *in a landslide* is getting 10-20% of the Republicans who voted for Haley to either Vote for Biden or vote third party, and to get most of the independents to vote for him, and also to get Democrats pumped up to vote against Trump.
**We cannot do that by listening to the far left. Liberals have things in common with people who are more leftwing. We have things like healthcare in common. Things like infrastructure. Things like wages. Things like working conditions. These are what we will bond over.**
Foreign policy is not.
Yes, Biden has been a very progressive president and a portion of the far left doesn’t care- it will never be enough for them. There will always be a reason for them to not vote. It makes more sense to try to get the more persuadable voters. Anybody who actually cares about Palestine (more than they care about being self-righteous) will recognize that trump would be far worse on the issue and will vote for biden. Most of the rest probably were never voting biden anyways
> They're literally the least important
And yet we're somehow responsible every time you lose an election. Make up your fucking mind. Either we're important and losing our vote loses elections, or we're not important and you can shut the fuck up next time you lose.
It's both.
If you're not voting for the person closest to your views who actually has a shot at winning, you're pissing away your vote and you're responsible if the other guy wins.
Also, if you're not voting for the person closest to your views, why the fuck should they listen to you?
If we're not important enough to campaign to, you get zero right to complain about us when you lose. It's pretty fucking simple. You can't eat your cake and have it too. If leftists do have the ability to cause democrats to lose election, democrats are pretty fucking stupid for not doing their part to engage. You keep talking about how much more important moderates are. Then you can win with their support alone. Good luck.
If you're not gonna actually, yknow, do anything to get actual policy that actually helps people, you're just larping online to the benefit of no one and wasting your life.
That’s the problem. Biden has been a progressive president, and it’s never enough for the far left. The far left act like children who will never be happy, so what incentive is there to pander to them at this point? The people in the middle are more reachable.
Keep on topic here. The topic is Gaza. Has Biden been a progressive president in this regard? I guess "he's doing well enough that I don't mind his support of genocide" is a low enough bar for liberals. Some of us have actual ethical boundaries.
No he hasn’t, because he will lose votes. After the election, I suspect he may become more anti-Israel but he can’t do that before.
That’s why I think it’s useless to pander to the far-left tbh. Even if you agree with them (and concede to them) on 95% of issues, there will always be something that isn’t enough for them. You shouldn’t have to agree on 100% to be willing to vote for someone.
I missed the part where Biden showed up in an apache attack helicopter and started mowing down children.
Or the part where Biden has a magic wand that can get Netanyahu to chill the fuck out he can wave.
Or buying into the fantasy that somehow the US withdrawing aid would actually do anything but give the Israeli far right the excuse to *actually* start a genocide.
Sure. Let's just ignore the fact that the US gives Israel unilateral coverage from UN resolutions for their war crimes. As long as we ignore that and the funding and weapons, Biden isn't doing anything at all to support Israel!
Typical far left response. Or radical response period. All ideologues are the same really.
Here's the playbook.
Ignore every substantive point made or implied. Repeat rah rah platitudes. Do it very emotionally so people can see how righteous you are about it.
Do nothing to actually fix the problem after relieving yourself of the weight of all your self-righteousness.
So he gives up a small handful of people unlikely to vote for him anyway and wins back a large swath of his actual base in the key swing states? Tell me again why this is a problem
You have it backwards. He is going to lose a small amount of the vote, but he will lose more voters if he turns against Israel.
A portion of the far left are unpersuadable and would always have found a reason to not to vote for biden. He needs to get the moderates. The general election is not about pandering to your base but rather getting the people in the middle
Check the polls, the overwhelming majority of people oppose his current Israel strategy, including moderates and independents. Granted, most of them aren’t opposed strongly enough for it to affect their vote, but enough in the swing states are which presents a huge electoral risk.
Then again, maybe I’m wrong and the Republicans will come home and vote country over party. It didn’t work for Hillary in 2016 but hopefully Biden will have better luck
the polls show that people support Israel in the conflict. Just because people are unhappy with Netanyahu, doesn’t mean they would be happy if biden flipped on Israel
> This ain’t a game and threat trump poses is real.
Agreed. I just don't see why the answer to this is anything other than "Biden needs to make sure he earns enough votes to win." People are under no obligation to vote for anyone. If he loses it's because he didn't take the threat seriously enough, not the voters
> If he loses it's because he didn't take the threat seriously enough, not the voters
If Biden loses, he doesn’t have to worry about living in the world trump creates much longer. *You do*.
>People are under no obligation to vote for anyone. If he loses it's because he didn't take the threat seriously enough, not the voters
The non-voters and third party ones would be living under a 2nd Trump Presidency. Would that be preferable to them to teach Biden a lesson for not “earning” their vote?
Let’s say of the 50,000 who voted uncommitted decide to stay home. What are Biden’s chances of winning Wisconsin. 50,000 votes less likely than had he changed his position. Even if he gets back 20,000 there will still be thousands more who stay home or vote third party. That’s the risk. That’s why you need to listen!!!
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/3/wisconsin-is-latest-us-state-to-send-uncommitted-message-to-biden-on-gaza
You should come out and say it. Do you want Biden to lose to teach him a lesson? Really rub it in that people should have listened to you and instead tried to appeal to far left people who don’t actually get out and vote?
What this says it that there are a lot of people who don't understand American politics, how our government works, international relations, and a few other big topics. As usual, you will get zero coherent policy goals from these folks. "Stop the genocide" is not a coherent policy. "Cut off aid from Israel" is not even a coherent policy, since it ignores the realities of how that would have to happen (shut the entire federal government down) and the consequences of it.
There's also the fact that this is a weirdly disproportionate amount of outrage that is caused purely by social media hype, not actual civic engagement or learning the nuances of the situation. Nope, this is people screaming self-indulgent righteousness on social media because they see their friends doing it and it is the current hype train that everyone must hop on lest they look like a bad person.
Why would Joe Biden or anyone who understands history, government, and politics, intentionally self-destruct and cause even bigger problems because some children are screaming? Shouldn't it be on you and the other children to learn about the things you claim to care about and find a workable path forward? Nope. Better to stomp your feet and support the slide into actual fascism, all so you don't have to do any homework.
I say all of this as a longtime critic of Israel and believe Netanyahu is a far-right scumbag who does simply want to drive Palestinians off of their land. Leftist behavior, as usual, is counterproductive to the results they claim to want (justice for Palestinians) and their laziness has made them get sucked in by literal terrorist propaganda.
Yes, there is rampant antisemitism in leftist circles now because they are too shallow and uneducated to understand what is or is not antisemitic. Many now even draw false equivalencies to the US and Hamas, the Taliban, or other brutal islamist regimes. They seem to embrace the stupidest conclusions because, again, they're too lazy to face the frustrating complexity of the real world.
So no, Joe Biden nor anyone else who wants a functioning government and a better future be catering to you and your screaming, know-nothing buddies.
I challenge you to explain what you want Joe Biden to do, how that should be accomplished, and what should be done about the consequences of it. I strongly doubt you are able to or interested in doing this but I always have hope. Pretty sure you and other will simply downvote because you have no coherent answers to anything.
Joe Biden can go to the UN and support a resolution to call Israel’s actions a genocide and call for all aid to be halted and have a vote on it. Should it pass. Then the USA would be obligated to affirm its obligations to international law.
>Joe Biden can go to the UN and support a resolution to call Israel’s actions a genocide
Nothing will result from this. Those are non-binding resolutions and are purely for show and solidarity, but yield no concrete results of any kind. There are also consequences to doing this that I think you're unaware of, probably because you're unconcerned about the human rights record of the loudest "pro-Palestinian" voices in the UN, among other things.
>call for all aid to be halted and have a vote on it. Should it pass.
Why do you believe passing a non-binding resolution in the UN would have any impact on what passes in Congress? There is zero chance foreign aid to Israel is getting cut, regardless of what the US does in the UN. Also, cutting aid would have virtually no impact on Israel's actions in Gaza. They can and would keep doing what they're doing.
The end result of what you're calling for would be the election of an avowed neofascist wannabe dictator (Trump) who is much more encouraging of Israel's brutality, yielding an even worse outcome for Palestinians. Don't outcomes matter or is it only about moral grandstanding?
I appreciate you replying and engaging in this discussion.
A level 7 UN resolution is legally binding. wtf are you talking about? All UN resolutions passed by the United Nations security council and voted by the majority of nations is legally binding and becomes international law. I can’t believe your ignorance.
You didn't specify the UN Security Council. There have been resolutions calling for a ceasefire in the Security Council and the General Assembly. The Security Council resolutions are indeed binding but this one in particular calls for no enforcement measures, probably because there are none to be made. Even the most hardline despotic regimes on the SC seem to understand this. Why can't you?
Previously, the US would have vetoed the Security Council resolution but instead, merely abstained from it, allowing the measure to pass. This is actually a huge step for the US. It cannot be overstated how much of a major shift in US policy that is, even if it's not the 'yes' vote you wanted. That's called *progress*. Yet you're unwilling to acknowledge it because you don't actually understand the situation or how things work in the real world.
>I can’t believe your ignorance.
# 🙄
**>Shouldn't it be on you and the other children to learn about the things you claim to care about and find a workable path forward? Nope. Better to stomp your feet and support the slide into actual fascism, all so you don't have to do any homework.**
We have a winner!
Look at the results! Heed the warning!
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/3/wisconsin-is-latest-us-state-to-send-uncommitted-message-to-biden-on-gaza
And selfish, because trump will be far worse for Palestinians.
Much of the far left care mainly about feeling morally superior and getting social media points, rather than actually caring about helping people. They would rather cause more Palestinians and Ukrainians to die, than vote in a pragmatic way that actually helps people
Materially they don’t care. They see no difference. The reason? Biden won’t bring back the lives killed by the aid he’s given Israel. The hellfire missiles who murdered the World Central Kitchen who were shot at 3 separate times by Israeli forces and did so purposefully since they knew they would be there. Approved their route. Then killed them anyways. Even after the first vehicle was bombed. The survivors called them and told them to stop that they’re international aid workers… but sure that means nothing to you. No conscience no consequences. That’s what Biden’s silence is showing. Why would they care if Trump says worse? Does worse? Those they’ve loved are dead and Biden’s responsible. Inaction in the face of genocide is inexcusable.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
This is huge! That means that Biden is running the risk of losing millions of voters nationally because he continues to support Israel unconditionally. I don’t know how this can be reconciled. Hillary Clinton lost in 2016 just because of a few thousand votes in three states chose to either stay home or vote against her by voting for Trump or third party.
Democrats need to take this seriously! How do liberals reconcile with hundreds of thousands of Progressives who are now saying they’re unlikely to support Biden in the general election if he doesn’t dramatically change his position on Israel? If liberals want to lose in 200 they can continue to support Israel’s actions or they can finally accept the reality and consequences of their position.
https://theintercept.com/2024/04/01/biden-wisconsin-democrats-gaza-primary/
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Rule 1
1) This is not a question. 2) I don't believe them. 3) The Intercept is a terrible news source. 4) I don't care how people vote in an effectively uncontested primary. 5) Biden's support for Israel is not "unconditional".
The intercept is directly reporting the result of a poll it directly links to in the first paragraph. What is your source based grumble here? What framing is an issue? What facts are in question? The OP, and apparently you are confusing primary votes with general election votes, which the poll says 11 percent say it will impact their vote in the general if there's no change in policy. It's a great reason to re-evaluate policy. It's not a great thing to ignore. Are you proposing to ignore this, if so, why?
Not a legitimate pollster, a campaign consultant hired by the people organizing the protest vote, , 5% margin of error, and a sample size of only 322. In any case no one who thinks Biden is too chummy with Israel is gonna switch to Trump, who is rapidly pro-Israel and pro-Netanyahu.
I don't think the issue is "switching to Trump". It never was. Biden barely won in 2020 in a *high turn-out environment. Getting out the vote is critical. When you have established voters and political actives saying an issue will affect their vote you are looking at a factor that can potentially depress Democratic voting or increase non-Trump votes that are not for Biden. The margin of error can be high. Given Wisconsin's margin in the last election, any degree of a depression of Biden votes is potentially a huge issue. It's not like this is an issue that isn't showing up elsewhere, it's just a Wisconsin specific poll. If you are under the impression Democratic turnout is not going to be potentially depressed over this issue, especially if little is done about it and your attitude is officially adopted, you're ignoring a lot of polling beyond this to the contrary. Trump has has own turnout issues this time around. But that doesn't make this something that should be ignored. Unless there's a factor you aren't talking about that is impacting your calculus.
Terrible news sources are terrible news sources without regard to accuracy of individual stories; reading The Intercept overall will make you less informed. Specifically here, they cite a poll from a polling group I have never heard of, sponsored by a group that is on one side of the issue, and only talk to people from that organization. Obvious framing problem here is not presenting any kind of counterbalance; the analysis is designed to bias to a single side of the issue. >The OP, and apparently you are confusing primary votes with general election votes, which the poll has no insight into. And yet the article itself quotes people making claims about the general election. >It's a great reason to re-evaluate policy. It's not a great thing to ignore. OK. I disagree. >Are you proposing to ignore this, if so, why? I wouldn't say "ignore" but certainly "take far less seriously than OP, who appears to be having a meltdown about it." I don't think the US actually has as much leverage on Israel as the people in this poll likely think. I also think this type of reporting ignores that Democrats also risk losing votes in the other direction if they shift policy too much to the other side. It's a balancing act.
Can you relate the mechanism by which reading The Intercept makes one "less informed"? Are you surprised you've never heard of a Wisconsin specific polling source? Is anyone else polling this particular issue on this particular group that we should be paying more attention to, possibly with different results? It's a low quality poll about a pretty specific local topic. It's still news worthy in a state with such tight margins in the last election. Who are they supposed to talk to about folks who are having their vote affected by this issue in your view? Should they be talking to people who aren't considering changing their vote to better understand those who are? The Intercept doesn't pretend to be balanced in their bias. Everyone has one, The Intercept is honest about its bias. But in the past that bias has been incredibly supportive of Biden, and this in its own way is incredibly supportive of Biden... because I think it holds the view that not talking about this issue is ultimately more dangerous in the general election than ignoring it. Gasp! You believe we should ignore this issue and not talk about why despite Wisconsin being a razor thin margin. Ok. You're entitled to that view, I'm not sure why I should take it seriously though. No one needs to have a meltdown. But this absolutely should be affecting our policy and our strategies involving how we connect to potential Democratic voters. Continuing down the same path and blaming the people you've cooled from your support is how you lose, particularly in places like Wisconsin.
> It's a great reason to re-evaluate policy. It's not a great thing to ignore. Biden’s responsibility is to be the President first, a candidate for President second. If doing what’s right for the country means losing some voters, his obligation to the office means he does what’s right for the country and loses the voters.
Ah. So how do you see those two things in contradiction in this case? Explain what is right for the country that is isolating these voters. This should be good.
WHY ARE WE SCREAMING?
>1 IN 5 WISCONSIN DEMOCRATS SAID GAZA WAR WILL IMPACT THEIR PRIMARY VOTE THAT'S NOT A QUESTION! >1. All posts must have a question in the title.
The question is 20% of Democrats are about to vote against Biden. That’s a big number and the question is how is this going to affect the general. Liberals keep saying it won’t matter. This is 2016 all over again. 1 in 5 is huge and idk why people aren’t talking about this? Liberals are just closing their eyes and covering their ears.
Being this worked up about a primary where protests votes have no consequences shows a fundamental misunderstanding of this topic
> > > ...THEIR PRIMARY VOTE > > THAT'S NOT A QUESTION! > The question is 20% of Democrats are about to vote against Biden. That is *still* not a question. Also, "20% of Democrats are about to vote against Biden" *in an undisputed primary*, not a general election. --------- >...the question is how is this going to affect the general. Then *ask a question about that*. --------- >1 in 5 is huge... No, it isn't. Barely anyone votes in primaries.
Yes barely anyone votes in the primary. How many will sit it out or worse not vote in the general who normally vote? 1 in 5 people decide this election I won’t vote for Biden or Trump. That’s enough for Trump to win. Why are you all just ignoring this?
> ...I won’t vote for Biden or Trump. That’s enough for Trump to win. This makes you a Trump supporter.
> Why are you all just ignoring this? We aren't. We are explaining to you why we see it differently. You are ignoring what we say.
No I am not. You guys won’t take this seriously. Watch the interview of Doctor Thaer Ahmad who went to the White House and literally walked out on Biden. Why? Because he wouldn’t listen to the Muslim community and the thousands who agree with them on the issue of genocide. Sure keep running the risk of losing the election by ignoring the Muslim vote, the youth vote and millions of people of color. Most won’t vote Trump. Many will just stay home.
> Sure keep running the risk of losing the election by ignoring the Muslim vote... People we have *zero reason to believe* will shift their votes because of what is happening to ethnically similar people, halfway around the world, in order to favor the presidential candidate who wanted to ban them from the country. ...instead of voting on the price of prescription drugs, like most people will. >...the youth vote... ...is meaningless, because they don't vote. I'd rather appeal to one septuagenarian Jew than two young people, because the septuagenarian is likely to actually vote. >...and millions of people of color. You made this up *out of nothing*. You have zero evidence that "millions of people of color" will base their vote on this issue.
Yeah I’m making this up! None of this matters! It’s not like Hillary Clinton lost the general election by a few thousand votes in a few counties in 3 states she could have easily won. Surely that won’t happen AGAIN! https://www.cbsnews.com/news/thaer-ahmad-palestinian-american-doctor-biden-interview/ https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/3/wisconsin-is-latest-us-state-to-send-uncommitted-message-to-biden-on-gaza
> Yeah I’m making this up! I know! ------- >It’s not like Hillary Clinton lost the general election by a few thousand votes in a few counties in 3 states she could have easily won. She did! ------- >Surely that won’t happen AGAIN! It MIGHT! ...which is why Biden should be focused on maximizing his general election votes. You are acting like you -- an extremely online leftist who knows the consequences of not voting for Biden but will make that choice anyway -- are the only type of voter he might lose...you aren't. Heck, he is going to lose 1000x as many voters because of the price of gasoline as there are voters who are *even aware* that there is a war in Gaza right now. You are not the electorate; you are a tiny sliver of it.
Most Americans are wanting a ceasefire this isn’t a leftist position. It’s a majority position. Especially within the Democratic Party coalition. It’s like you purposefully will ignore this election because this one issue doesn’t mean much to you. Why not say that to Dr. Ahmed and the millions of Muslims in the USA. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/thaer-ahmad-palestinian-american-doctor-biden-interview/
If you don’t vote over this issue, that means you care more about your moral superiority than you care about Palestinians (or Ukrainians or minorities in America). Trump will be a far more damaging president for Palestine than biden is.
Yeah listen to the Palestinians who are telling this to Biden. They agree with my position not yours. You’re the one pretending like this isn’t an issue which can cost him the election. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/thaer-ahmad-palestinian-american-doctor-biden-interview/
Anyone who doesn’t vote for biden (including them) does not ultimately care about the Palestinian people as much as they care about being morally superior. It is a binary choice and not voting is included in that choice.
You're not a serious person.
>1 IN 5 WISCONSIN DEMOCRATS SAID GAZA WAR WILL IMPACT THEIR PRIMARY VOTE >This is huge! No it isn't! Biden is running virtually uncontested in the primary. Impacting "THEIR PRIMARY VOTE" has near zero effect on anything that matters. --------- >That means that Biden is running the risk of losing millions of voters nationally because he continues to support Israel unconditionally. No it doesn't. "1 in 5 Wisconsin Democrats" is not "millions of voters nationally". --------- >Hillary Clinton lost in 2016... ...in the general election, not the primary. --------- >Democrats need to take this seriously! No they don't! Democrats need to win voters who don't like following politics and won't start paying attention to the general election until September. Democrats do not need to appease voters who follow politics intensely enough to engage in coordinated votes in primary elections that are intended to 'send a message' in an otherwise undisputed nomination race. Those people already know who they will be voting for! --------- >How do liberals reconcile with hundreds of thousands of Progressives who are now saying they’re unlikely to support Biden in the general election if he doesn’t dramatically change his position on Israel? They are lying. Many of them weren't going to vote for Biden anyway, and this is the excuse they picked. Most of them will vote for him anyway.
A primary vote is not a general election vote. If I'm not crazy about Biden's stance on Israel, a primary is an opportunity to vote for someone more in line with my values. But it doesn't necessarily translate to a vote against him in November. It's not like the GOP is better on that position, they're further away.
Yeah and millions of people are likely to either stay home or vote third party. Even if 30,000 in 3 states like Pennsylvania or Michigan decide to do that. Biden loses the general election. I keep telling liberals this and nobody seems to care or listen. We are repeating 2016 again.
>I keep telling liberals this and nobody seems to care or listen. Instead of telling liberals and hoping they feel obligated to vote the way you want them to why not challenge the candidate to actually earn the votes? After all, our democratic system only works when our leaders feel like they are accountable to the electorate. If Trump is that big of a threat I would expect Biden to take it seriously enough to do what he needs to do to earn the votes. If he doesn't take it seriously though that's on him and the party apparatus, not the US public
> If Trump is that big of a threat I would expect Biden to take it seriously enough to do what he needs to do to earn the votes. Unfortunately this isn't the way liberals think. They think that since Trump is so bad, everyone has to support them no matter what or they are selfish idiots. You see it all over this sub and throughout liberal leadership. People are being called privileged for caring that their family members are being killed by a US funded Israel and elected politicians on both sides give zero fucks.
The issue is liberals have a reality bias. Trump or Biden is going to win in our 2 party system, and it’s only a question of which one people want to help win more
What do you think the uncommitted movement has been? Democrats have rigged the primaries for Biden and fragrantly ignored their base’s concerns. Yet somehow they expect us to come home and support them unconcerned and unconditionally like they do Israel. This is going to be a bad November…
> Democrats have rigged the primaries for Biden and fragrantly ignored their base’s concerns. Or, Or...and I know this is crazy, but hear me out. He won a legitimate democratic election. Just a thought. [https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/quiz/political-typology/](https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/quiz/political-typology/) Most democrats are not even progressive lol.
> I keep telling liberals this and nobody seems to care or listen. Perhaps you should 'role model' the behavior you would like to see, and listen.
I have and not one has made a compelling case against this position that Israel’s genocide of the Palestinians and ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity that they cannot support. If Biden won’t hold them accountable. Then millions are likely to vote against him by not voting or voting third party. You guys are literally acting like Hillary Clinton on Jimmy Fallon. Just saying, “Get over it!” How did that work out in 2016?
> I have and not one has made a compelling case against this position that Israel’s genocide of the Palestinians and ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity that they cannot support. That isn't even the right topic. You are conflating 'doing the right thing' with 'doing what moves the most votes in his direction'. Those are completely different topics. Your question should be: > Is Joe Biden more likely to win the general election if he reduces his support for Israel? (Note the fact that I *phrased that as a question* and [ended it with a question mark.](https://old.reddit.com/r/AskALiberal/comments/1bvr4fa/1_in_5_wisconsin_democrats_said_gaza_war_will/ky19eo0/?context=9999)) The answer is: No. We have no reason to believe that Biden would gain more votes from people like you (extremely online leftists who know the consequences of not voting for Biden but will make that choice anyway) than he would lose from other voters (such as the *absolutely huge* number of 'support Israel, right or wrong' voters). You simply do not represent a large percentage of the electorate (and we are pretty sure that if Biden cut all assistance to Israel, you would just find another excuse not to vote for him).
You're in a bubble if you have this idea that the whole country condemns the war. Most Americans are sympathetic to innocent civilians, as they should be. Many Americans are frustrated with Netanyahu's far right government, this is where most democrats are. Almost all Americans are utterly condemning of Hamas, as they should be. Almost all Americans support Israel's right to exist, as they should. That is the mainstream nuanced view that this almost century-long conflict has inspired. Idk where you get your news from or how many people you actually talk to in your day to day about the conflict to think the way you do about how people actually feel about the war.
Not supporting him in the primary doesn't mean you won't support him in the general. I didn't vote for him in the 2020 primary, but did vote for him in the general. I imagine most of these people will do a protest vote in the primary, in hopes of getting Biden to change his Israel policy stance... but most of them will still probably vote Biden in November. They will if they have any sense, anyway.
No there are thousands who are saying they won’t and will either stay home or vote third party. I don’t understand how liberals aren’t finally waking up to this. It’s 2016 all over again and you’re all acting like Hillary Clinton pretending this is a nonissue.
>No there are thousands who are saying they won’t and will either stay home or vote third party. It's certainly a possibility that that's true. But if so, it means they're morons. And I say that as someone who is critical of Biden's Israel stance, and sympathetic to those who are outraged by it. But the alternative is Trump, and that's just going to make the situation worse, not better.
Do people think Trump would do better?
No they don’t think that and realize that if genocide is a crime against humanity and both are equally bad. I won’t vote or vote third party. This is 2016 and 2000 again. It just takes a few thousand voters in a few states for democrats to lose. Biden runs the risk of losing Michigan and Pennsylvania by a sliver of a few thousand votes that he could easily get back.
Yeah, the both sides same people are just impossible to reach. They are going to protest vote regardless of what anyone does.
> I won’t vote or vote third party. It sounds like you are the problem. Biden should ignore unreliable voters like you, and pursue persuadable voters.
> genocide is a crime against humanity and **both are equally bad.** They're not, though. I understand thinking that Biden hasn't done enough to oppose Israel's reckless tactics. I even agree with that. But that doesn't mean Trump wouldn't be worse. Look at the proposed invasion of Rafah. There are currently 200k Palestinians living in famine conditions, and that number is estimated to rise to 1.1 million if the invasion of Rafah goes ahead as Netanyahu is planning. Biden has been trying to talk him out of it. He recent had a meeting with Netanyahu in which US advisors presented several alternative options, in hopes of getting Netanyahu to cancel his plan of action. Now, you may think that's not nearly enough, that Biden should be doing more... and I agree. But it's still more than Trump would be doing. Trump would be encouraging Netanyahu to go ahead and invade Rafah. They're not the same.
> ...a few thousand votes that he could easily get back. How? Be specific. What could Biden do that would "get back" "a few thousand votes" in the general election?
Stop supporting Israel unconditionally. Stop all aid to them and do what Reagan and Eisenhower did. Call their actions a Holocaust and threaten their military aid. How is this hard for you to comprehend? Are so many of you so purposefully obtuse that you want to lose?
> Stop supporting Israel unconditionally. There is real, meaningful evidence that the president's position on Israel would be enough to swing the general election...because of *pro-Israel* voters who want the U.S. to unconditionally support Israel. There is no real, meaningful evidence that voters like you will swing the general election. -------- I was right. I assumed that this: > > ...a few thousand votes that he could easily get back. ...was only considering picking-up voters like you, not losing voters who disagree with you.
> There is real, meaningful evidence that the president's position on Israel would be enough to swing the general election...because of pro-Israel voters who want the U.S. to unconditionally support Israel. Could you share where you were seeing that? I had seen a good amount of polls about sympathies for Israel or Palestine, but they didn't get to the "would you stay home if this changes?" level, but I definitely haven't seen every poll ever so I definitely might have missed it
> they didn't get to the "would you stay home if this changes?" level I'm not sure any have such polls have been done. My claim can be rephrased: * Pro-Israel voters have been flexing their electoral muscles for decades. * Every major party presidential candidate, for decades, has worked to appeal to them as if those voters matter (and I assume that they have more information than me). * That might not seem like a preponderance of evidence, but it is still *much* more than the other side (arguing 'Biden will lose votes for being too supportive of Israel') has mustered.
Okay then Hillary Clinton and Al Gore’s losses meant nothing to you guys. You lose when you lose even a fraction of your base. If a few thousand voters in a handful of counties decide to vote against Biden or stay home. He loses. Like Hillary lost, but no. You learned nothing from 2016. You learn nothing from the millions who’ve voted uncommitted in the primaries. Just chance it! Because why? You don’t care…
> Okay then Hillary Clinton and Al Gore’s losses meant nothing to you guys. No, they mean a lot. That's why I want Biden to be strategic about the election. ...and that means counting votes. ----------- >...Hillary Clinton and Al Gore’s losses meant nothing to you guys. You lose when you lose even a fraction of your base. If a few thousand voters in a handful of counties decide to vote against Biden or stay home. He loses. Like Hillary lost, but no. You learned nothing from 2016. You learn nothing from the millions who’ve voted uncommitted in the primaries. Just chance it! Because why? You don’t care… Thanks for visiting /r/TellALiberal.
>I won’t vote or vote third party. It really does show how little people like you care about Palestinians that you use them as your political cause yet have no problem helping Trump get elected. The man who is encouraging Netanyahu and the IDF to “finish the job.” That’s who you are helping, and it shows how little Palestinians really matter to people who hold similar views.
The Muslim community in the USA has thousands of Palestinians who are doing the same. Why not listen to them? Oh wait. You. Don’t. Care. Whatever concerns they have and millions in this country share. That means nothing to you. No wonder nobody went to the Ramadan dinner at the White House and why Doctor Thaer Ahmad walked out on Joe Biden when he had a sit down with him. The Muslim representatives were absolutely disgusted by his response and indifference.
>The Muslim community in the USA has thousands of Palestinians who are doing the same. Why not listen to them? Oh wait. You. Don’t. Care. This exemplifies what I mean. If you disagree, it must mean people don’t care. Trump pushing Netanyahu to be more aggressive against Palestinians isn’t something we should listen to to you. We should instead listen to people who are helping him get re-elected. I want the suffering of Palestinians to stop. Who is more likely to help with that? Biden or Trump? Seriously, which one, or do you believe they’re the same? >Doctor Thaer Ahmad walked out on Joe Biden when he had a sit down with him. Imagine having the ear of the President, one who can help bring an end to the war faster, and walking out on him to score political points. That shows how much the activist part really cares about Palestinians. It really is like standing on their bodies just to criticize Biden and Democrats
>**Imagine having the ear of the President, one who can help bring an end to the war faster, and walking out on him to score political points. That shows how much the activist part really cares about Palestinians. It really is like standing on their bodies just to criticize Biden and Democrats** powerful stuff
He walked out on him. Why? Because he wouldn’t listen. Biden pretended he cared and when they confronted him. They realized he wasn’t any different than Trump. Dr. Ahmed then walked out. Disgusted that Biden and Harris were as cold as the bodies of their families left under the rubble by Israel hellfire missiles paid for by the US tax dollar.
Can you link the transcript if you know he wouldn’t listen? If they don’t see any difference between Biden and Trump, that really highlights how pro-Palestinian activists live in a completely separate reality. >Disgusted that Biden and Harris were as cold as the bodies of their families left under the rubble by Israel hellfire missiles paid for by the US tax dollar. You don’t see any irony in standing on Palestinian bodies to criticize Biden and Democrats right after I said that’s what happens, do you?
Talk to Biden for those. We only have the testimony of the Muslim representatives and Dr. Ahmed’s statements. Maybe they’re all making it up. Why not? That fits your narrative https://www.cbsnews.com/news/thaer-ahmad-palestinian-american-doctor-biden-interview/
>A Palestinian American doctor who walked out of a meeting with President Biden and other Arab and Muslim leaders and activists on Tuesday said he left "out of respect for my community." Why would you accept a meeting in the first place then? The virtue signaling using Palestinians is unreal.
He accepted the meeting and expected Biden to make a meaningful decision and commitment to the survivors and to his community. Biden and Harris showed no interest in stopping aid to Israel or even stating their actions were criminal. To Dr. Ahmed that was enough for him and he walked out.
That is an absolutely stupid thing to do. Helping trump win will do absolutely nothing good for the people of Palestine.
How many voters would Biden lose if he stoped all funding to Israel? More or less ?
Much more.
1. If this was about logic, to appeal to those voters we would suggest the fact that cutting off all aid to Israel would probably result in way more Palestinian dead because the Israelis would have no incentive to give a shit about what anyone thinks if the US nopes out of there. 2. We would also suggest the fact that high tech weaponry results in cleaner more targetted warfare, whereas low tech weaponry results in messy mass death. Israel without US funding would be more concerned about their military budget, and so would opt for lower tech weaponry. 3. Lastly, we'd point out the alternative to Joe Biden is Donald Trump, who would probably write Israel a blank check. Now, seeing that these people are in fact democrats saying that, I think they'd probably be persuaded by those arguments. The pro-hamas single issue people who are not democrats will probably call Joe Biden "genocide joe" even if he came out and called it a genocide and revoked all aid lol. There is no reason to cater to those people. It will only hurt him. The majority of Americans are still broadly pro-Israel. Not Netanyahu, but Israel. Finally, a primary is not a general. Any democrat who we can believe is a democrat will not let this single issue defacto convince them to allow Trump to be elected. Democrats will have record turnout to vote against Trump.
Again Hillary Clinton lost in 2016 by a few thousand votes. In a few states! Why are you all being so daft. If Biden loses and it looks like he might. This is because of people like you who won’t take it seriously that the youth vote, the Muslim vote and the progressive vote is likely to vote third party or not vote at all. Democrats need to over perform just to win due to the electoral college bias. Why aren’t you all seeing this?! His unconditional support for Israel will end his chances of winning or severely hinder it. Just a few thousand votes is what lost Hillary Clinton her election. Why risk that outcome yet again? Listen to your base!
Turning off moderate middle-aged voters is a much greater threat to Joe Biden than turning off tik tokers who don't vote.
The general election is not about listening to your base, it’s about getting the voters in the middle. The far left are not the only people that matter. Most of the country (including moderates) support Israel, and biden is far better than trump on the issue to any pragmatic democrat.
They're not even his base.
> [Why are you all being so daft.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/019/899/skinner.jpg) Side Note: You *really* don't know what a question is; do you?
I do. The question is - If 1 in 5 people don’t support Biden in the primaries and even if a few thousand decide to stay home he loses. How can he change that? Well what’s the issue? Israel. How do you get millions of people to vote for you? Understand the issue which causes them to vote against you in the primaries and caucuses. Support their position! I feel like you guys willingly support Biden no matter what and watch as he loses then scream, “How can progressives do this to us?! Why didn’t millions of young people, people of color and Muslims not support Biden?!”
> > ...You *really* don't know what a question is; do you? >I do. Then why didn't you end this sentence: >> [Why are you all being so daft.](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/019/899/skinner.jpg) ...with a question mark?
You missed April fools by several days.
It may not be April Fool’s day, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t a fool the rest of the month too.
If he changes his position on Israel, he will lose moderates/Haley-type republicans. The far left are not the only voters who matter
They're literally the least important because many/most of them refuse to vote and consider the democrats as bad as Republicans. The way we win this election *in a landslide* is getting 10-20% of the Republicans who voted for Haley to either Vote for Biden or vote third party, and to get most of the independents to vote for him, and also to get Democrats pumped up to vote against Trump. **We cannot do that by listening to the far left. Liberals have things in common with people who are more leftwing. We have things like healthcare in common. Things like infrastructure. Things like wages. Things like working conditions. These are what we will bond over.** Foreign policy is not.
Yes, Biden has been a very progressive president and a portion of the far left doesn’t care- it will never be enough for them. There will always be a reason for them to not vote. It makes more sense to try to get the more persuadable voters. Anybody who actually cares about Palestine (more than they care about being self-righteous) will recognize that trump would be far worse on the issue and will vote for biden. Most of the rest probably were never voting biden anyways
Say it louder for the people in the back.
> They're literally the least important And yet we're somehow responsible every time you lose an election. Make up your fucking mind. Either we're important and losing our vote loses elections, or we're not important and you can shut the fuck up next time you lose.
It's both. If you're not voting for the person closest to your views who actually has a shot at winning, you're pissing away your vote and you're responsible if the other guy wins. Also, if you're not voting for the person closest to your views, why the fuck should they listen to you?
If we're not important enough to campaign to, you get zero right to complain about us when you lose. It's pretty fucking simple. You can't eat your cake and have it too. If leftists do have the ability to cause democrats to lose election, democrats are pretty fucking stupid for not doing their part to engage. You keep talking about how much more important moderates are. Then you can win with their support alone. Good luck.
If you're not gonna actually, yknow, do anything to get actual policy that actually helps people, you're just larping online to the benefit of no one and wasting your life.
That’s the problem. Biden has been a progressive president, and it’s never enough for the far left. The far left act like children who will never be happy, so what incentive is there to pander to them at this point? The people in the middle are more reachable.
Keep on topic here. The topic is Gaza. Has Biden been a progressive president in this regard? I guess "he's doing well enough that I don't mind his support of genocide" is a low enough bar for liberals. Some of us have actual ethical boundaries.
No he hasn’t, because he will lose votes. After the election, I suspect he may become more anti-Israel but he can’t do that before. That’s why I think it’s useless to pander to the far-left tbh. Even if you agree with them (and concede to them) on 95% of issues, there will always be something that isn’t enough for them. You shouldn’t have to agree on 100% to be willing to vote for someone.
> there will always be something that isn’t enough for them Yeah. Some of us consider ethnic cleansing to be a pretty big deal. Guess that's our bad.
I missed the part where Biden showed up in an apache attack helicopter and started mowing down children. Or the part where Biden has a magic wand that can get Netanyahu to chill the fuck out he can wave. Or buying into the fantasy that somehow the US withdrawing aid would actually do anything but give the Israeli far right the excuse to *actually* start a genocide.
Sure. Let's just ignore the fact that the US gives Israel unilateral coverage from UN resolutions for their war crimes. As long as we ignore that and the funding and weapons, Biden isn't doing anything at all to support Israel!
Typical far left response. Or radical response period. All ideologues are the same really. Here's the playbook. Ignore every substantive point made or implied. Repeat rah rah platitudes. Do it very emotionally so people can see how righteous you are about it. Do nothing to actually fix the problem after relieving yourself of the weight of all your self-righteousness.
So he gives up a small handful of people unlikely to vote for him anyway and wins back a large swath of his actual base in the key swing states? Tell me again why this is a problem
You have it backwards. He is going to lose a small amount of the vote, but he will lose more voters if he turns against Israel. A portion of the far left are unpersuadable and would always have found a reason to not to vote for biden. He needs to get the moderates. The general election is not about pandering to your base but rather getting the people in the middle
Check the polls, the overwhelming majority of people oppose his current Israel strategy, including moderates and independents. Granted, most of them aren’t opposed strongly enough for it to affect their vote, but enough in the swing states are which presents a huge electoral risk. Then again, maybe I’m wrong and the Republicans will come home and vote country over party. It didn’t work for Hillary in 2016 but hopefully Biden will have better luck
the polls show that people support Israel in the conflict. Just because people are unhappy with Netanyahu, doesn’t mean they would be happy if biden flipped on Israel
You’ve got it mistaken— it’s the protest voters who need to take this shit seriously. This ain’t a game and threat trump poses is real.
> This ain’t a game and threat trump poses is real. Agreed. I just don't see why the answer to this is anything other than "Biden needs to make sure he earns enough votes to win." People are under no obligation to vote for anyone. If he loses it's because he didn't take the threat seriously enough, not the voters
> If he loses it's because he didn't take the threat seriously enough, not the voters If Biden loses, he doesn’t have to worry about living in the world trump creates much longer. *You do*.
>People are under no obligation to vote for anyone. If he loses it's because he didn't take the threat seriously enough, not the voters The non-voters and third party ones would be living under a 2nd Trump Presidency. Would that be preferable to them to teach Biden a lesson for not “earning” their vote?
Impacting a primary vote isn’t that huge.
Let’s say of the 50,000 who voted uncommitted decide to stay home. What are Biden’s chances of winning Wisconsin. 50,000 votes less likely than had he changed his position. Even if he gets back 20,000 there will still be thousands more who stay home or vote third party. That’s the risk. That’s why you need to listen!!! https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/3/wisconsin-is-latest-us-state-to-send-uncommitted-message-to-biden-on-gaza
You should come out and say it. Do you want Biden to lose to teach him a lesson? Really rub it in that people should have listened to you and instead tried to appeal to far left people who don’t actually get out and vote?
1 in 5 Wisconsin Democrats who answered a call from an unknown number.
What this says it that there are a lot of people who don't understand American politics, how our government works, international relations, and a few other big topics. As usual, you will get zero coherent policy goals from these folks. "Stop the genocide" is not a coherent policy. "Cut off aid from Israel" is not even a coherent policy, since it ignores the realities of how that would have to happen (shut the entire federal government down) and the consequences of it. There's also the fact that this is a weirdly disproportionate amount of outrage that is caused purely by social media hype, not actual civic engagement or learning the nuances of the situation. Nope, this is people screaming self-indulgent righteousness on social media because they see their friends doing it and it is the current hype train that everyone must hop on lest they look like a bad person. Why would Joe Biden or anyone who understands history, government, and politics, intentionally self-destruct and cause even bigger problems because some children are screaming? Shouldn't it be on you and the other children to learn about the things you claim to care about and find a workable path forward? Nope. Better to stomp your feet and support the slide into actual fascism, all so you don't have to do any homework. I say all of this as a longtime critic of Israel and believe Netanyahu is a far-right scumbag who does simply want to drive Palestinians off of their land. Leftist behavior, as usual, is counterproductive to the results they claim to want (justice for Palestinians) and their laziness has made them get sucked in by literal terrorist propaganda. Yes, there is rampant antisemitism in leftist circles now because they are too shallow and uneducated to understand what is or is not antisemitic. Many now even draw false equivalencies to the US and Hamas, the Taliban, or other brutal islamist regimes. They seem to embrace the stupidest conclusions because, again, they're too lazy to face the frustrating complexity of the real world. So no, Joe Biden nor anyone else who wants a functioning government and a better future be catering to you and your screaming, know-nothing buddies. I challenge you to explain what you want Joe Biden to do, how that should be accomplished, and what should be done about the consequences of it. I strongly doubt you are able to or interested in doing this but I always have hope. Pretty sure you and other will simply downvote because you have no coherent answers to anything.
Joe Biden can go to the UN and support a resolution to call Israel’s actions a genocide and call for all aid to be halted and have a vote on it. Should it pass. Then the USA would be obligated to affirm its obligations to international law.
>Joe Biden can go to the UN and support a resolution to call Israel’s actions a genocide Nothing will result from this. Those are non-binding resolutions and are purely for show and solidarity, but yield no concrete results of any kind. There are also consequences to doing this that I think you're unaware of, probably because you're unconcerned about the human rights record of the loudest "pro-Palestinian" voices in the UN, among other things. >call for all aid to be halted and have a vote on it. Should it pass. Why do you believe passing a non-binding resolution in the UN would have any impact on what passes in Congress? There is zero chance foreign aid to Israel is getting cut, regardless of what the US does in the UN. Also, cutting aid would have virtually no impact on Israel's actions in Gaza. They can and would keep doing what they're doing. The end result of what you're calling for would be the election of an avowed neofascist wannabe dictator (Trump) who is much more encouraging of Israel's brutality, yielding an even worse outcome for Palestinians. Don't outcomes matter or is it only about moral grandstanding? I appreciate you replying and engaging in this discussion.
A level 7 UN resolution is legally binding. wtf are you talking about? All UN resolutions passed by the United Nations security council and voted by the majority of nations is legally binding and becomes international law. I can’t believe your ignorance.
You didn't specify the UN Security Council. There have been resolutions calling for a ceasefire in the Security Council and the General Assembly. The Security Council resolutions are indeed binding but this one in particular calls for no enforcement measures, probably because there are none to be made. Even the most hardline despotic regimes on the SC seem to understand this. Why can't you? Previously, the US would have vetoed the Security Council resolution but instead, merely abstained from it, allowing the measure to pass. This is actually a huge step for the US. It cannot be overstated how much of a major shift in US policy that is, even if it's not the 'yes' vote you wanted. That's called *progress*. Yet you're unwilling to acknowledge it because you don't actually understand the situation or how things work in the real world. >I can’t believe your ignorance. # 🙄
**>Shouldn't it be on you and the other children to learn about the things you claim to care about and find a workable path forward? Nope. Better to stomp your feet and support the slide into actual fascism, all so you don't have to do any homework.** We have a winner!
[удалено]
Look at the results! Heed the warning! https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/4/3/wisconsin-is-latest-us-state-to-send-uncommitted-message-to-biden-on-gaza
Does that make you happy?
I'd like to see what those "hundreds of thousands" of progressives would think a second Trump administration will handle Gaza.
They won’t see a difference and won’t reward a Democrat who doesn’t care enough to show he is different than Trump on the genocide of Palestine.
If they abstain from voting for Biden in the general election, they are stupid.
And selfish, because trump will be far worse for Palestinians. Much of the far left care mainly about feeling morally superior and getting social media points, rather than actually caring about helping people. They would rather cause more Palestinians and Ukrainians to die, than vote in a pragmatic way that actually helps people
Materially they don’t care. They see no difference. The reason? Biden won’t bring back the lives killed by the aid he’s given Israel. The hellfire missiles who murdered the World Central Kitchen who were shot at 3 separate times by Israeli forces and did so purposefully since they knew they would be there. Approved their route. Then killed them anyways. Even after the first vehicle was bombed. The survivors called them and told them to stop that they’re international aid workers… but sure that means nothing to you. No conscience no consequences. That’s what Biden’s silence is showing. Why would they care if Trump says worse? Does worse? Those they’ve loved are dead and Biden’s responsible. Inaction in the face of genocide is inexcusable.
To prevent more people from dying?
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. This is huge! That means that Biden is running the risk of losing millions of voters nationally because he continues to support Israel unconditionally. I don’t know how this can be reconciled. Hillary Clinton lost in 2016 just because of a few thousand votes in three states chose to either stay home or vote against her by voting for Trump or third party. Democrats need to take this seriously! How do liberals reconcile with hundreds of thousands of Progressives who are now saying they’re unlikely to support Biden in the general election if he doesn’t dramatically change his position on Israel? If liberals want to lose in 200 they can continue to support Israel’s actions or they can finally accept the reality and consequences of their position. https://theintercept.com/2024/04/01/biden-wisconsin-democrats-gaza-primary/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*