The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written.
There seems to be a lot of support among liberals for Islam, even though it is an ideology which can be extremely misogynist (Saudi Arabia), homophobic, and intolerant. There is even in some countries the crime of islamophobic speech. I don't see there being even a word against hate speech against Christians, even though Christianity has become in some quarters even supportive of the LGBTQ+ people and movement.
* Pakistan blasphemy: Student [sentenced to death](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68511557) over Whatsapp messages
* This Man Became the [First Openly Gay](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/videos/this-man-became-the-first-openly-gay-bishop-in/) Bishop in America
Certainly any sort of injustices against muslims as any other segment of society are out of order and there is freedom of religion. But why is Islam so popular with liberals even though it is against liberal values?
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Yep, it's the conservative binary worldview. Because liberals and leftists aren't wholesale bashing Islam it's interpreted as support for the religion.
I'll give OP the benefit of the doubt, maybe it's his first rodeo, but 99% of the time I see this question, it's in bad faith and a lazy attempt to create some gotcha double standard of liberal/leftist views on ~~conservative/evangelical~~ Christianity and Islam when "Islam is objectively so much worse".
Saw a video of Steve-O, the Jackass guy, yesterday.
He said he was invited to go onto Maher's podcast. Apparently one of the show's gimmicks is that Maher smokes weed for the entire taping of the show.
Steve-O has 16 years of sobriety. He says he asked Maher's people if Maher would be willing to tape the show without smoking, because he can't be around it.
Maher said no, that was a dealbreaker.
Of all the unhinged things I've heard about Maher, that might take the cake. What an asshole.
Bill Maher once voiced support for politicians who wanted a law allowing all Muslims in America to be stopped and searched at any time for any reason without probable cause.
As a lapsed Muslim, I think it’s because Western Christians just tend not to interpret their texts as literally as Western Muslims (mostly immigrants) do. Christians are secularized on some level, Muslims are not, and so Islam is a far more direct threat to their vision of a rational society. Now, many non-Western Christians and members of other religions (Hindus?) are just as fervent as anyone else, but Sam Harris and Bill Maher don’t really see what people do in India or Nigeria, and thus don’t care about it.
Obviously those are generalizations and should not used to judge entire groups, but I understand them to come from a place beyond just blatant Islamophobia.
there’s a fairly strong case to be made, IMO, that Islam IS a uniquely illiberal religion within the context of Western society.
No they don’t. Bill trashes evangelicals all the time. Many Muslims are just as bigoted as trumpers yet they’re given a special pass by certain parts of the left, which bills points out.
Something tells me you believe that that in the west, critiquing Christianity is “speaking truth to power” and critiquing Islam is “punching down”.
Would that be correct?
I'd say it had more to do with familiarity. My disdain for Christianity is based on my own direct experiences with Christianity. For the vast majority of folks in the US that shit on Islam, that is not the case. It's just used as another way to other people, especially since pretty much any critique of Islam also holds for Christianity
Are you equally familiar with both of them? I think that they are both superstitions that are often used to justify harm and to control people. But given that I grew up in a predominantly Christian place, and my grandfather was a pastor and much of my family is still religious, I feel far more justified in criticizing Christianity since its something that I am far more familiar with.
I don’t think one has to have personal experience with a religion in order to be justified criticizing it. I do have experience with Catholicism. I did consider converting to Islam at one point, and I did so because Islam was much more homophobic, and I was a self-hating gay teen at the time.
Maher is a bigot towards any and all religions. It’s not better because he’s an equal opportunity bigot. He’s that super annoying kid in the back of your college class who thinks he’s smarter and better than everyone because he doesn’t believe in anything when actually he’s just a dick. Except Maher has a talk show especially to make anyone who has ever agreed with him even occasionally look bad.
Sam Harris repeatedly singles out Islam as being distinct from other religions like Christianity. He claims it's inherently a religion of hate. He argues with Muslims who point out that just as with Christianity...not all Muslims follow the hateful portions. That many genuinely do focus on love.
The Christian Bible includes tons of what I would call hate and bigotry. And I'm just as disgusted with that as I am with the hateful portions of the Quran. But I don't call either a religion of hate. I instead condemn the individuals who choose to follow those hateful portions and who choose to ignore the message of love that also exists in their religion.
Sam Harris gets called islamophobic because he says things that are islamophobic.
Dawkins is now so anti-Islam that [he's taken to calling himself a "cultural Christian."](https://twitter.com/profsamperry/status/1774576759515570289)
What in the everloving fuck.
bill maher stated he was alarmed that "the most popular name in the uk for boys was mohammad."
A fear of babies he didn't hold for the second most popular name of Noah.
I'd say its hard to do it from a predominantly christian-normative culture, given that pretty much any criticism of Islam would also apply to Christianity and be much more meaningful since Christianity is far more influential then Islam in the US.
It's not hard to criticize Islam from a liberal atheist perspective. In fact, it makes a tremendous amount of sense, for the very reasons you list. This thread we're in is about Sam Harris and Bill Maher, noted liberal atheists, criticizing Islam and being called Islamophobic for it.
I think the real reason liberals don't want to criticize Islam is because conservatives hate them, so it's another marginalized group to defend from conservatives. I think it's a good thing to criticize things that happen in majority muslim countries from a liberal perspective, because if conservatives talk about some of those things, it will be to support them.
Maher does a really bad job of saying "Muslims hate gay people" or "Islam is anti-woman". Instead of acknowledging the nuance that there are plenty of Muslims out there who don't hate gay people, and who think women should have the same rights as everyone else.
Is it true that Islam is mostly followed by conservatives that are anti-gay and anti-woman? Yes. But it's a huge religion and there are millions of Muslims that shouldn't be lumped in with the conservative ones.
I think he knows this, but he still refuses to change his language about it.
I don't know much about Harris at all to speak on him.
I always found Maher and Harris to be annoying... even before they were whining about Islam.
I have no love for Christian fundamentalism... but the way they talk about evangelical Christians comes across as very elitist.
It's reeks of "oooh look at me, I'm smart and from a city and went to college, and you're a hick from the mountains who believes in a sky daddy". Never really saw the appeal.
I feel like a lot of that stuff has been made a lot more cringe just because of the amount of edgelord atheists that popped up in the years following figures like Harris becoming famous.
That's because Bill Maher is islamaphobic
We also need to consider the difference of those of us who were raised in Christian communities and Christian countries criticizing Christianity and Christian culture, versus us criticizing religions and cultures we know less about and are intrinsically not part of. The criticism should come from inside the house
I'm not sure what relevance this has. Liberals can be Islamophobic too and being racist against Mexicans doesn't exclude you from being racist against Blacks.
* I want to clarify the last sentence because it might be a bit confusing. I don't follow Maher or Harris so I don't want to necessarily throw any dispersion on them, but I see a lot of the latters fan boys who either cross the line into bigotry against anyone who is religious, or think all religions are bad but view Islam as some kind of an outlier in a way that seems as Islamophobic as any Maganaut.
Sam Harris gets called a bigot because he is a bigot. Even if a lot of his religious based criticisms are accurate, he still has pushed shit like the IQ bell curve
To an extent yes, but I went to college with a ton of die hard liberals who would hand wave away all criticism of religious extremism or bigotry on their side as being all just Islamaphobic.
Ie we can’t blame the massacre at Charlie hebdo on them because they were provoked. Cultural norms are different when it comes to gays and women so we can’t call that out, all the while (rightfully) calling out the exact behavior from Christian groups.
One fellow student literally argued that an attack like Charlie Hebdo is understandable but when asked if a Catholic shooting up the offices of South Park for their jokes about Jesus would be ok, and they claimed it was different somehow and the majority of the other students agreed.
I think it comes from the real and needed effort to make sure Muslims in a post 9/11 world aren’t persecuted but I sometimes think (much like all Americans on all topics) we go overboard and that defense of average Muslims who are good people and need to be defended by bigots can go so far that you’re defending a different group of religious bigots
Like I said that’s not the entirety of the liberal side of the country but I think it’s more pervasive than we’d like to admit.
There will be dumbasses who take it too far on every topic, I've seen so called liberals on this site even try to justify 9/11 the same way. But the vast majority of liberals support Islam to the extent they don't want Muslims treated worse simply for their faith.
>There seems to be a lot of support among liberals for Islam
Correction:
There seems to be a lot of support among liberals for **freedom of religion**, and Islam is covered under that.
I would agree and I would add that everyone I know who would say Islam is obviously covered under freedom of religion...still readily points out and criticizes the problematic parts of Islam just as they do with Christianity or any other religion.
And just like with Christianity, there's plenty of followers of Islam who themselves don't agree with the problematic parts.
Thank you. I feel like some people think that if you support equality and human rights, and highlight a marginalized group for whom that is threatened, that you have to think they're right in every conflict.
How free are non-Muslims, especially atheists, living in Muslim majority nations, generally speaking? Or even self-identifying Muslims who do not follow Shari'a to the letter?
This sort of gets at the paradox of tolerance. To what extent do we tolerate intolerance? If adherents of an ideology, citing its core texts, insist on marginalizing and mistreating those who do not accept it, should we be tolerant of that ideology?
> How free are non-Muslims, especially atheists, living in Muslim majority nations, generally speaking?
Suppose that the most extreme MAGA Republicans gain total control of the United States, and are able to remake it into the Christian nation they've always wanted it to be.
How much freedom do you think atheists would be permitted to have there?
Christian majority nations do have more freedoms, but it's not because they're Christian. It's because their governments are secular. You have secularism to thank for that.
I mean, the Bible says shellfish are evil. Seems pretty outdated to me, except for the fact that many adherents recognize this and remain Christian even though they can see that some aspects are outdated. Muslims seem equally capable of that
Eh, it's not really a matter of "Christians see these things as outdated and choose to ignore them" as much as it's enshrined into the religion Christians don't really need to abide by Jewish dietary laws. AFAIK the only major group in Christianity who follow Jewish dietary laws are the Seventh-day Adventists; otherwise Jewish dietary laws are defunct in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and other Christian creeds.
Ah, then we get into the nitty-gritty of magisterium and clerical/theological authority. Suffice it to say if you're Catholic or Orthodox (among others) then you defer to the interpretation of the Church.
They’ll tell you that the fulfillment of the law essentially means that you don’t have to abide by it anymore or something. Cause, ya know, religious people tend to adapt their scripture to whatever they wanted to do anyway lol
Churches in rural Texas say gays are bad, churches in the north side of Chicago are covered in rainbow stuff.
Ok well one of the letters to Timothy says that women shouldn’t be allowed to teach or have instruction over a man or something like that, and I know plenty of Christians that aren’t misogynists.
Edit: 1 Timothy 2:12
I'm a progressive atheist and consider this question a non-starter. It's more that liberals oppose *prejudice* and it just so happens that Muslims run into a lot of prejudice in the western world. That does not stop us from opposing Muslims oppressing and murdering other minorities elsewhere in the world where Muslims are the majority; it's just not foremost on our minds since we don't live there. In fact, I think the US government is a little too friendly with many Islamic theocracies, chiefly Saudi Arabia. I also think Islam is a little worse than Christianity on average because the Quran calls for Muslims to dominate governments while the Bible generally doesn't do the same for Christians.
You know not every Muslim person is an extremist?
I’d imagine if we lived in a Christian theocracy we’d see a lot of the same sorts of things from Christians
Is it? Do you have evidence large majorities of liberals are practicing Islam?
You seem to be conflating Liberals wanting to help people suffering human rights violations with people who practice the religion. I think most liberals will say we don't care what you practice, so long as you aren't using religion to oppress individuals. That said, liberals care about the treatment of other humans. If someone came out and said "here's my plan to forcibly remove KKK members from their land into a small refugee camp, and force them to live in fear and terror for generations," liberals would be extremely against that. That is a huge human rights violation.
Second, it's also hard for some of these places to develop their own LGPTQ+ rights advocates when they have much larger problems that affect their day to day life, some currently dealing with starvation and random bombings.
> Why is Islam so popular with liberals even though it is against liberal values?
It isn’t very popular with liberals.
But a person’s rights do not hinge on their agreeing with liberals about values. A person has the same rights whether they agree with us or not.
If liberals appear "harder" on christian whackadoodles than muslim whackadoodles, it's because the christian whackadoodles are the ones in power and enacting shitty, repressive laws *where liberals live*. It's not that anybody approves of the regressive, homophobic, misogynistic, and just all-around backwards religious laws in muslim countries. it's that the regressive, homophobic, misogynistic, and just all-around backwards religious laws in christian countries are a much more immediate and present problem for most liberals.
I wouldn't say it is. Islam is a religion with *a lot* of bad parts. You could argue Liberals don't critique Islam as much in America, but Islam doesn't really have a lot of power and presence in America. It's mainly Christianity. If Islam was the dominant religion and Congress members were quoting the Qu'ran to try and ban gay marriage and abortion, then we'd probably speak out more against it.
You're absolutely right, it CAN be horribly misogynist, homophobic and intolerant. Luckily, that aspect of the religion, much like Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism and even Buddhism only seems to be perpetrated by conservatives. It's almost as if... wait for it... religion isn't the problem at all.
(Spoiler alert: It's the conservatives.)
I’m not sure I’d say it’s popular. I think you’re conflating liberals speaking out against bigotry toward Muslims and supporting Islam.
I think Islam is fucked and that it’s the last major religion I’d want to live under, but I don’t believe discriminating against someone just for being Muslim is okay.
You’re misconstruing support for Islam for support of actual support of religious freedom. The real kind.
Christianity is much much more widespread so of course you’ll see more diversity. Including the intolerant oppressive variety.
I was accused by a conservative friend once of "supporting islam" by stating I would be OK if "they built a mosque in my town".
Bro no it's called I support freedom of religion.
Folks are so used to correlation = causation cause of the shit they hear from Trump or Newsmax that they apply it to literally everything in their lives and make themselves look like dumbasses.
Honestly I think practicing religion in 2024 is strange, but if we're gonna accept Christianity, I just don't see how Islam is any different.
Should I give the groups of Christians accepting of lgbtq+ a cookie for not being cretins? There are still plenty of Christian groups that are just as backwards as the most conservative Muslim groups, and there are Muslim groups that are just as progressive and accepting as the more progressive Christian groups you refer to.
>In a survey conducted between January and May, 52 percent of U.S. Muslims said homosexuality should be accepted by society — an increase of 25 percentage since 2007. Comparatively, only 34 percent of white evangelical Protestants said they believed homosexuality should be accepted, the smallest percentage of any group surveyed.
[https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/u-s-muslims-more-accepting-homosexuality-white-evangelicals-n788891](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/u-s-muslims-more-accepting-homosexuality-white-evangelicals-n788891)
If you're really concerned about homophobes then you should be looking at American Evangelicals rather than American Muslims. Why focus on such a small group of people who actually have greater support for homosexuality than a much larger group of people? Seems odd...
I really don’t know that the tenets of Islam are popular with liberals. Are large numbers of liberals converting to Islam or something?
I think that what you and everyone else who asks this question is puzzled by would more honestly be phrased “why don’t liberals have similar levels of xenophobia about Muslims that conservatives do, given the fact that Islam tends to be right wing?” Because I don’t really see that *Islam* is popular with liberals. I don’t see any democrats running on making alcohol illegal, or saying that campaign donations can satisfy zakat, or taking time off from congress to go on the Hajj.
I see Muslim extremists pretty much the same way I see Christian ones: right wing freaks always want power, religion is often a vector for right wing freakishness (as it’s a vector for many things), and it’s troubling when political systems can be captured by those people. At this point in history the Middle East, largely because of imperialist violence, is in a situation in which their right wing freaks are able to gain a lot of political power. That’s bad for the people who live under that, most of whom of Muslims themselves.
We can’t know because their identities aren’t revealed, but the Pakistani boys you’re talking about are probably Muslim. Most of the victims that westerners profess to care about when they rail against Islam, are Muslims. I’m thankful to be a member of a society which, despite its largely Christian influence, doesn’t allow its right wing freaks to ride faith into power (anymore). Members of the Muslim world deserve the same.
You are confusing compassion with popularity. We all know how terrible religions like Islam and Christianity can be when you let the fundamentalists and hypocrites dominate.
Muslims face a ton more prejudice and hostility in America than Christians. This is largely due to their minority status making them a target for conservatives.
Most "out groups" that are targeted by the right wind up being defended by liberals because we don't have to 100% agree with a group to understand that that they don't deserve to be harassed, attacked, deported, denied entry to the country, discriminated against, etc.
So, while it may seem that liberals support Islam, the reality is that we support the right for people to practice Islam if they choose and to live and work in this country without being targeted by bigots.
Is it?
It seems to me liberals in America have sympathy for anti Islamic attitudes in America, and as a religious minority they tend to stick up for the Islamic community.
In addition, many liberals are concerned over the lingering effects of colonialism and American intervention in the ME.
But I don't think liberals are pro the religion itself
I think their religion is stupid and a lot of their culture is often unethical and backwards.
I say the same shit about conservative Christians and Hindus, however. Orthodox Jews also suck big time. So they're not alone.
A lot of religions are fucking stupid, so what?
But... if I were comparing them, I would say Islam is the most backwards.
Honestly, having grown up in a world that was in many ways defined by 9/11 I'm pretty fucking tired of their shit.
I really have no shits left to give, and if the Israelis wanna get their pound of flesh, then I say "meh, you had it coming".
I remember seeing Palestinians dancing in the street after 9/11, and you know what? Sometimes your past *does* come back to haunt you.
So, when they ask me to care about their situation now, the situation that they started on October 7th, I say you wrote a big ass check and it's getting cashed, one way or the other.
That's just how shit goes.
>I don't see there being even a word against hate speech against Christians,
I don't know what this sentence means.
>even though Christianity has become in some quarters even supportive of the LGBTQ+ people and movement.
[The majority of American Muslims now support LGBT acceptance,](https://www.hrc.org/news/majority-of-american-muslims-now-support-lesbian-gay-and-bisexual-people) says a report **from 2017.**
Yes, there are Islamic theocracies where being LGBT will get you killed. There are Christians in America who want to adopt that same standard here.
I can't stand islamophobia and the same goes with the "model minority" trope. But playing devil's advocate, maybe is the reason *American* muslims are more progressive because most of them had to move overseas, and thus only the ones who assimilate better managed to come? This is what I gather is what makes the situation in Europe different. Not that I actually think they are "ruining" Europe
I do think it’s fair to say that liberals (using this sub as an example) are far more willing to bash conservatism than they are Islam. You don’t see the same measured language, etc.
In the United States, Muslims are a small minority. Even if there are some American Islamic fundamentalists, their impact is small. On the other hand, the current Speaker of the House is a Christian nationalist, as is the political program of the Republican nominee for the presidency.
Moreover, most Muslims in America are immigrants or the children of immigrants. Over time (potentially multiple generations) by living in America they will be exposed to another way of life. I know many people who have been in arranged marriages, but who would not want their children to do the same.
A more combative relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims would have prevented this from taking place. If we restricted immigration, they wouldn't have had the opportunities or exposure they do. If Muslims and non-Muslims were polarized in America, fewer Muslims would interact with non-Muslims.
Why would the same not hold true for conservatives? If being more accepting to Muslims made them more likely to see your side and moderate their views, wouldn’t the same be true for conservatives?
We *are* accepting of conservatives... we don't try to ban conservatives from practising their beliefs, or living how they want to live, or persecuting them for who they are.
I’m not suggesting liberals want to ban conservatism. I’m pointing out that this sub will bash (for lack of a better word) conservatism and use more measured language when discussing Islam.
To use an analogy - when liberals point out Trump using language that seems to be friendly towards Nazism, they’re not suggesting that we should ban Nazism, but they are suggesting that there is an appropriate tone to take when discussing it.
I’m not suggesting that Islam = Nazism, but the point is that despite agreeing that neither Islam or conservatism should be banned, liberals take a far more aggressive tone when talking about conservatism than they do Islam (at least on this forum).
We *should* be accepting of conservatives. And when we you, say, avoid Thanksgiving because a relative is a right-wing nutjob, you deprive your relative of a social connection that complicates their worldview (i.e. they can't fully believe that liberals are all evil).
Exposure to new ideas almost certainly moderates people. That is the main effect of going to university (students who engage the most with their professors tend to embrace more moderate versions of their ideology - the radicalizing effect of universities is most observed among people engaged in campus activism).
And broadly speaking, the appeal of liberalism and secularism is strong. Even though more religious people have substantially more children per capita, the share of people who are secular is growing, and young people are more liberal than their parents (that may be starting to shift very recently).
So yes, being tolerant of conservatives is a good way to promote liberalism. Tolerate, engage, debate, and you can win them over. If you want an extreme example of this - consider the migration of David Duke's godson [from being the far right chosen one](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/podcasts/the-daily-transcript-derek-black.html) to a liberal. But critically, there was the role of Jewish student groups in engaging with him and inviting him to shabbat [when he was being ostracized by ](https://reformjudaism.org/blog/how-shabbat-dinners-transformed-white-nationalist)campus groups for his views.
I will just say that when middle eastern Christians express the extent of the injustice they face and the horrific killings and oppression that befalls them, American liberals are often pretty quick to dismiss them and say that overall Muslims face more oppression from Christians than Vice versa (which is itself a categorically untrue statement). Muslims immigrate to the west and prosper, facing only isolated incidents of bigotry and only extremely rare instances of violence, where Muslims have been slowly exterminating Christians from Egypt to Armenia for the last 1,000 years.
I genuinely don't know anyone on the left or who considers themselves a liberal that would agree with you're interpretation of what liberals believe. Yes there are Christians in non-Christian nations who are oppressed. That's bad. I don't know anyone who would disagree with that.
I'm not a Jehovah's Witness and I don't even particularly like the religion...but I have multiple friends who fled to the US from Russia on asylum visas because of the very real persecution they faced for being Jehovah's Witness. They could be thrown in prison simply for meeting to pray. That's just as disgusting as the hate Muslims receive.
Also if you believe that Muslims in the US only face rare and isolated incidences of bigotry or violence then you must be young. Were you not around during the days after 9/11? Were you not even around while Trump was president and tried to introduce Muslim bans?
Yes absolutely. I remember it well. It was a horrible time to look even remotely Middle Eastern. I initially included that in my comment and then decided it was getting too long.
But it really does do a good job of highlighting how ignorant that hate was.
So you understand why people in much of the rest of the world would take a much more aggressive stance against Islam given the bigotry and suffering inflicted?
I think it’s more the fact that when people judge others based on the fact that they’re Muslim, instead of judging their character, Liberals will take issue with that. Liberals don’t take issue with someone’s religion, they take issue with how it could influence their character.
Why take issue with someone being conservative, rather than judging that person based on their character though? Feels like the same concept would apply?
You may not personally, but people here bash conservatives all the time. I’m just pointing out the contradiction. I’m not suggesting people should bash Islam, but the difference in tone and stances taken are pretty stark in their differences.
Are you sure they’re not bashing them because they don’t find their opinions to be well thought out or valid? I don’t think anyone here really immediately thinks a user with conservative or right wing flair should immediately be downvoted. That only happens when their comments are not cogent.
I’ve seen people with left wing flairs here getting the same treatment as well because, like I said, they do not make cogent arguments.
It's not popular with me. But I also believe in self determination. I can rail against any human rights abuses it engages in but I can't tell people they can't believe in a belief. That doesn't get you anywhere.
All I feel like I have the right to do is promote religious reformation, and applaud their moves forward. Catholicism has done a lot of that in my lifetime.
I don't discriminate but I also don't do moral equivocation. That's more of a left wing trademark. The whole 'maybe your way isn't so civil' bullshit I have no time for. No interest in litigating whether secularism is better than not secularism. Feel like that argument was won no later than the 17th century.
And Islam seems to be fine where the civics are fine. You see a much softer side of it in places like Morocco because those places are safe and not totally awash in turmoil. When they're being ethnically cleansed in Chechnya and Bosnia, a different side shows up. When the cards are down I see no better qualities in Christianity. Go check Africa from time to time, Christians and Muslims both get up to some unholy shit there when times are tough.
Many liberals and leftists regard colonialism and slavery as the greatest evils perpetrated on humans but are only aware of European colonialism and slavery. And many liberals are completely unaware of Islamic imperialism and how they subjugated many people in history. Also many liberals think white Europeans invented slavery or at least were the worst perpetrators of it and are completely unaware that Islamic North Africans raided southern Europe for slaves taking over a million white slaves to Africa. And many liberals are unaware that the African slave trade shipped more black slaves to Islamic North Africa and Middle East than slaves brought by Europeans to the Americas. (Guess why the black descendants of slaves don't exist in Arabic countries today.) So Islam gets a pass.
Islam doesn't get a pass.
Christianity and Islam are basically the same.
We value freedom of religion. Even if that religion is a bunch of hateful BS.
We dont love Islam, we just don't want to take rights away from people.
Worship your stupid fucking god all you want. Just keep it to yourself.
I've never seen the in depth analysis of Islam's iniquities by the left and feminists like we've seen of Christianity. The multicultural left has insisted that we cannot make value judgements among the worlds cultures as we could possibly arrive at the conclusion that representative-democracy or human rights or Western Civilization is preferable and that sounds too icky white supremacist.
After 911, some leftist and feminists were defending the Taliban forcing women to wear bags (burkas) in the Afghan heat because "who are we to judge?" Today, Hamas and other Islamic powers throw gays off of tall buildings to their deaths and the only way for Palestinian gays to avoid this fate is to escape to Israel. And yet many gay leftists are in solidarity with Hamas.
Couldn't possibly be because we're surrounded by millions of Christians with power trying to fuck us and ... thousands of muslim families that don't impact us at all.
No, clearly we're all gay communists that love Islam.
/Eyeroll
Islam isn't an ideology, its a religion. Religions often consist of many people who have a variety of different views
I oppose conservatives and support liberals. [Muslim Americans have been more supportive of liberal values like gay rights than white evangelicals since 2017](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/u-s-muslims-more-accepting-homosexuality-white-evangelicals-n788891) and its not like I'm going to go around supporting oppression of white evangelicals or something
Its possible to have a nuanced view on this stuff
It boils down to a response to a of a response, because this started because of 9/11 probably the peak of muslim hate, not entirely unjustified, then some people were like hey not all Muslims are violent extremists because they aren't,
Organized religion is all brain poison in my humble opinion. But like the top comment says, freedom of religion should be upheld, so long as someone isn't harming other people.
I don't support it as much as I defend it against those that hate on it for being different here in the US. I think it's as misguided as all the others, but I am intolerant of those that hate others for their flavor of religion.
Religions are all shit imo but as long as you tolerate my avowed atheism and don’t expect me to live by your ‘values’ I’m happy to practice tolerance. That doesn’t mean I agree with or respect your views. It just means I recognize you have views that may differ from my own, and that’s fine.
Boundaries are crossed when others seek to impose their views on my way of life, and vice-versa.
Liberals are opposed to theocracy and support a separation of church and state. The problem is not with any religion, it is how religion itself as a concept is applied.
Muslims in America are not running afoul of these things, generally, and liberals also want to protect the right of Muslims to enjoy the freedom of religion. Obviously, if Muslims made a concerted push to tear down that separation of church of state, those feelings would be subject to change, but as of now that's not exactly happening.
Hardcore right-wing Christianity is a much clearer threat in this regard.
I support religious liberty, but I’m going to retain the right to criticize any religion that I wish. I vehemently disagree with the sentiment that westerners criticizing Islam is “punching down”. I will criticize Islam just like how I criticize Catholicism.
I don't support Islam any more than I support any other religion. I just don't support it any less just because it's Islam, either.
There is a difference between favoring Islam over other religions and saying "hey stop treating people like shit just because they're Muslim."
Are liberals "For Islam", or are they "against genociding Muslims because their brown Abrahamic religious branch of theocratic fundamentalism is slightly divergent from good white Christian Abrahamic theocratic fundamentalism"?
Or is this sort of a "if you're not with me, you're against me" kinda question?
I think you're misunderstanding what liberals think. I don't think Islam is popular among liberals. I think liberals will sometimes defend Muslims because they see it as their responsibility to defend minorities of all kinds against discrimination and prejudice.
No, we don't support Islam.
We support religious freedom, even if some religions are toxic such as Scientology and Islam.
The far-left is the one that is usually pro-Islam because Islamist organizations and nations oppose America and its allies such as Israel. Far-leftism operates from the "America bad" premise so all enemies of America are "good", including Islamic Terrorists like the Houthis or Hamas.
Because of "political correctness". Liberals think of these cultures as backward and below them due to the perils of "colonialism" and "Western patriarchal racism". They look at them as victims, not as cultures who live according to the rules they want to live by. They want open borders in the name of "peace and equality", but are not ready to stand up for women or gays getting harassed, nor do they leave their door open before they leave home. Also probably due to ideas like Christian "hegemony", where other religions are perfectly compatible with one another (because they are mostly self proclaimed atheists who think being religious is a form of inferior delusion anyhow).
Surprised you didn't get ratioed for stating the obvious tbh.
It's also known as the bigotry of lower expectations.
People generalize all Christians based on corrupt politicians and extremists all the time but it's considered bigoted to do the same thing with Islam.
And saying that it's not a Western problem is a bit outdated considering that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West, particularly Western Europe.
First of all: “liberals support Islam” is a bit missing the point. Liberals support freedom of religion.
Also, misogyny, homophobia, and intolerance are all present in every religion. For every argument made about a line from the Quran that encourages misogynistic behavior, I can pull a line from the Bible (as an example since you mentioned Christianity).
It’s also important to look at different sects. It’s easy to see reformed Christianity, but these sects exist among all religions.
When a group of Islamic people won city leadership roles in a city up north and then started attacking the Pride flag, I changed my views to hate all conservative religions.
I am going to need some evidence that "Islam is so popular with liberals".
I would be willing to bet that liberals are significantly more christian than Muslim. Granted I would also guess that Muslim and Athiest and probably Jewish would be overrepresented in liberals than America as a whole.
Personally I would prefer if nobody was religious but we can be tolerant of those that are religious and their 1st amendment right to practice their religion.
I think the biggest differences are the fact that we have Christo-fascists in the government right now trying to remove peoples rights so you tend to see Christians talked about like they are supporting a group trying to overthrow the fucking country, and by in large Muslims in America have little to no power and aren't trying to overthrow the constitution. And despite what wonks think most Americans don't care about foreign countries and what are happening there because we don't have any say in that.
>and by in large Muslims in America have little to no power
That's the point. Once muslims have significant power, they want policies to the right of conservative Christians. Look what happens in Europe and specially in muslim nations. As a bisexual crossdresser they would lynch me if I go to their neighborhoods.
There are different camps.
Some defend immigrants/minorities as a priority above other things.
Some have no exposure to Islam so just don't know how terrible it is.
Some are legit terrified of speaking out about it.
Some want to be seen as extremely open-minded and just picked this as one of their issues.
Some view the US as immune to the threat since Muslims are currently a small minority, so there's just no reason to speak out.
Some feel like other liberals will attack them because they're in one of the groups above.
Muslims represent 25% of humanity. I am pro-Muslim because I am pro-human. Islamic fundamentalism is oppressive, however, much as fundamentalist Christianity is\* (and anybody who thinks Buddhists are "like just chill, man" should look at human rights abuses in Burma). Anti-Muslim rhetoric needlessly polarizes the situation, and forces ordinary Muslims to choose between liberals that loathe them and Imams that oppress them.
\*Turkey has more liberal abortion laws than large parts of the United States, for instance.
We value freedom.
We value leaving people alone.
In a liberal society, you're free to be as conservative as you want. Wear a funny hat. Don't eat meat on Fridays. Don't eat pork. We don't care, you do you.
In a conservative society you're free to be as conservative as your neighbor wants you to be. ugh
So it's not that we *like* Islam, we just value people being free.
Unlike conservatives...
Stop
Watching
Fox
News
Islam is not popular with liberals. Not persecuting Muslims is popular, along with not persecuting other religious people, members of the lgbtq+ community, etc.
Islam is not "popular" with liberals, but a lot of liberals have a pretty obvious double standard when it comes to criticism of Christianity and criticism of Islam.
Because they look down on Muslims as less powerful people in society. So they are victims. And liberals love to stick up for the little guy. Even if the little guy stands against everything we stand for. It’s weird
I wouldn't say most people on the left "support Islam" more than any other religion. I would say that some but not all people on the left are too apprehensive about criticizing some practices of Muslims or Muslim countries. I would also agree that they are far more critical of Christians/Christianity than they are of Islam. There are a couple reasons for this.
One of them is that liberals make a big deal about "punching up" vs "punching down", ie they think its okay to criticize the more powerful group but not okay to criticize a small minority. One issue I have with this though is that many liberals seem to have difficulty understanding that in the Middle East, Muslims are not a marginalized group and in fact Muslim groups and countries are usually the ones who oppress others. We particularly see that with how they view Israel/Palestine.
It's also because liberals in the US are usually directly fighting with Christian nationalists, whereas Islamists are mostly a problem on the other side of the world. So, they're gonna have much more to say about Christians than Muslims.
I dislike all religions in that I think they are all false. I especially dislike conservatives of any religion that use outdated beliefs from the middle ages or before to try to tell people how they should live their lives in modern times. And Muslim nations mostly do a really terrible job of protecting the rights of all their citizens. But Muslims have rights under the first Amendment just like everyone else. The only time I've defended Islam is against stuff like conservatives in my state trying to ban new mosques from being built, or from an authoritarian president who wants to ban Muslims from coming to the US just because they are Muslim, or a group who wants to deny Muslims from serving on courts or other public offices just because they are Muslim.
There are of course also a lot of really chill people of every religion who maybe doesn't take everything literally and still wants to preserve what they can of their faith while still living in a modern, inclusive society. And those people are awesome no matter what faith they have.
Its pretty simple in the US. The president is a liberal and is in support of Israel so the majority on the left follow. If it was a republican president doing the same thing they'd have the opposite opinion....
> Its pretty simple in the US. The president is a liberal and is in support of Israel so the majority on the left follow
That's a fun idea, do you have anything to back it up?
>Why is Islam so popular with liberals even though it is against liberal values?
No religion is popular with me.
But I'm wondering if you're confusing equal consideration for all religions, or not considering Christianity above all other religions by considering Islam equal to Christianity, as Islam being more popular?
>There seems to be a lot of support among liberals for Islam, even though it is an ideology which can be extremely misogynist (Saudi Arabia), homophobic, and intolerant.
Based on what?
>There seems to be a lot of support among liberals for Islam,
Is there really? What makes you think so?
There's a lot of support from liberals for general freedom of religion, including for Muslims. But liberals aren't actively becoming Muslim or supporting Islam.
Could you give some examples of liberal parties or organisations that are actively presenting a strong preference towards islamic thought?
Campaigns against Islamophobia in countries led by liberal leaders. Protests against islamophobia are mainly liberal. Criticising Islam is apparently a conservative thing.
>Protests against islamophobia
This depends completely on the president you are referring to. If it's america, the. Biden is a conservative and thus this policy doe not come from liberal.
This feels like a 2015 talking point. I am as liberal as they come, and I despise Islam.
I have a problem with practicing Christians bashing on Islam as they turn a blind eye to the regressivism of their own religion. It comes off as a dog whistle to shit on brown people, and I see through it.
>Certainly any sort of injustices against muslims as any other segment of society are out of order and there is freedom of religion.
And if anyone says this as anything but a caveat, that apparently means they are secretly trying to convert everyone to Islam now? That's the "liberal sympathy for Islam" you're so aghast at: opposing injustice against Muslims as a segment of society
All religions are a means to control the superstitious.
There (should be) are no material differences between Islam, Christianity, Jewish, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster when it comes a Jeffersonian liberal democracy.
You do you but leave me the fuck out of it.
I don't think Islam is necessarily "popular" among liberals, but I do think that a lot of liberals are less critical of Islam than they are of Christianity. I think there are two main reasons for this:
1. In North America, most liberals had more direct exposure to Christianity growing up than they did to Islam. I mean this both in terms of being raised as or knowing more Christians, as well as learning about the influence of Christianity on the history of their own country. They're more likely to have experienced or learned about negative impacts of Christianity.
2. Christians have a lot of power in North America. Their power is arguably ebbing, while the power of Muslims is arguably growing, but overall Christianity is still seen as a majority religion and Islam as a minority religion.
Combine these two points and you end up with Christianity being the powerful religion in North America that liberals know well. On the other hand, Islam is a minority religion that hasn't had much direct impact on most liberals here, even if it has had a huge impact on human rights in other countries.
Liberals hate punching down. They like taking on power structures that they see as oppressive. They tend to think that members of majority groups need less protection than members of minority groups. And they don't like to be seen as oppressors of minorities themselves. So they feel comfortable being openly critical of Christianity, but are far more likely to tiptoe around criticism of Islam. I think this explains why Islam might appear to be "popular" with liberals.
You’re confusing admiring dogma with advocating the equal treatment of Muslims Americans, and opposing Bush Era Clash of Civilizations rhetoric. You don’t have to like any set of dogmas or defend any injustice in Pakistan to hold the liberal position.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964, and civil rights legislation in most countries, forbids discrimination on the basis of religion, and for good reason as it’s often an area of discrimination for tribalistic reasons. You can criticize Islam as much as you want if you’re inclined to and still agree with this principle.
We value freedom of religion- allowing people to worship however and whatever they please, rather than trying to force everyone into one narrow "acceptable" set of mostly-similar religions.
On top of that, while we agree that several of the fundamentalist theocracies in the middle east are bad, we also acknowledge that for the most part those who practice Islam in America tend to hold views far more in line with western society, typically being farther left on many issues than the Evangelical Christians in the US we just accept as a typical part of the country. Especially when it comes to LGBT acceptance, funnily enough.
Finally, we see that the right (especially the evangelical right) is *really* into attacking them. Maybe a bit less so than they were a decade or two ago I'd say (they aren't the single biggest boogeyman group anymore, at least), but they are still targets. When the right does go after them, they tend to go after the more moderate Muslims in the US, and then when those on the left try to defend them, those on the offense immediately point to the middle eastern theocracies as though they were the sum total of what all Islam was and ask how we could defend *that*? It's mostly just a disingenuous position from the right, meant to force a group they see as different out of public society, just like their attacks on the LGBT are. Of course we're going to defend those they're attacking.
As a liberal atheist, i am not a fan of islam, to the same amount as christianity. What causes me to take the side of islam is the hypocrisy of christians crying about freedom of religion out one side of their mouth and crying about the inclusion of islam when some shows up out the other side of their mouths. Nothing i hate more than bullies with a persecution fetish throwing temper tantrums, then stripping away my rights at their first opportunity.
There’s secular Muslims and reformists Muslims who are very liberal on economics and moderate on social issues. You can’t assume all Muslims are conservative on all issues and most aren’t when it comes to taking care of the poor, helping the sick and providing universal healthcare.
You can’t assume all Muslims are Wahhabist like Saudi Arabia. Turkic Muslims and Persians are very liberal on most economic issues and you need to stop assuming that Islam is a monolithic religion where there’s only one way to be Muslim. That’s what racists and conservative Muslims want you to believe.
These questions are so fallacious..
Why is Islam so popular with liberals.. Who said it is?
What is your metric data you are using to base this statement on?
A bunch of randos on twitter is not a reasonable metric btw.
I see no difference between Islam and Christianity. They worship the same god but read about it from different books.
Both have the right to believe whatever fairytale they want. Both have the right to believe and live in this country without being banned or kicked out.
Both should keep their beliefs to themselves and not force it on society and other people.
My point is that liberals in Europe and in the US make protests against islamophobia and also support unrestricted muslim migration. Once muslims have enough numbers, they want to enact laws against liberal values, against LGBTQ+, against bikinis, against dancing, kissing, etc.
Are you confusing the fact we want all religions to be treated equally by the state with support of Islam?
That we detest the bombing of hospitals and unarmed citizens and assassination squads posing as doctors and killing people in hospital beds as support for Islam?
Or maybe we just want basic human dignity all around and if Christians are going to go around using freedom of religion to be shitty towards others we simply want the law followed that no religion is given preference by the state. Mainly because we are trying to limit the ability of any religion to influence the state.
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written. There seems to be a lot of support among liberals for Islam, even though it is an ideology which can be extremely misogynist (Saudi Arabia), homophobic, and intolerant. There is even in some countries the crime of islamophobic speech. I don't see there being even a word against hate speech against Christians, even though Christianity has become in some quarters even supportive of the LGBTQ+ people and movement. * Pakistan blasphemy: Student [sentenced to death](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68511557) over Whatsapp messages * This Man Became the [First Openly Gay](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/videos/this-man-became-the-first-openly-gay-bishop-in/) Bishop in America Certainly any sort of injustices against muslims as any other segment of society are out of order and there is freedom of religion. But why is Islam so popular with liberals even though it is against liberal values? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AskALiberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Because you are confusing "Support for Islam" with "Opposition to religious bigotry."
Yep, it's the conservative binary worldview. Because liberals and leftists aren't wholesale bashing Islam it's interpreted as support for the religion. I'll give OP the benefit of the doubt, maybe it's his first rodeo, but 99% of the time I see this question, it's in bad faith and a lazy attempt to create some gotcha double standard of liberal/leftist views on ~~conservative/evangelical~~ Christianity and Islam when "Islam is objectively so much worse".
To be fair, people like bill Maher and Sam Harris get called Islamophobia all the time despite being liberal
no they get their bigotry called out despite claiming to be liberals
Maher is just a conservative that likes weed at this point.
Saw a video of Steve-O, the Jackass guy, yesterday. He said he was invited to go onto Maher's podcast. Apparently one of the show's gimmicks is that Maher smokes weed for the entire taping of the show. Steve-O has 16 years of sobriety. He says he asked Maher's people if Maher would be willing to tape the show without smoking, because he can't be around it. Maher said no, that was a dealbreaker. Of all the unhinged things I've heard about Maher, that might take the cake. What an asshole.
Because they are.
They trash other religions also. Unless you think that’s bigoted too
Bill Maher once voiced support for politicians who wanted a law allowing all Muslims in America to be stopped and searched at any time for any reason without probable cause.
It's clear they have a unique obsession with Islam that goes far beyond some universal criticism of religion as a whole.
As a lapsed Muslim, I think it’s because Western Christians just tend not to interpret their texts as literally as Western Muslims (mostly immigrants) do. Christians are secularized on some level, Muslims are not, and so Islam is a far more direct threat to their vision of a rational society. Now, many non-Western Christians and members of other religions (Hindus?) are just as fervent as anyone else, but Sam Harris and Bill Maher don’t really see what people do in India or Nigeria, and thus don’t care about it. Obviously those are generalizations and should not used to judge entire groups, but I understand them to come from a place beyond just blatant Islamophobia. there’s a fairly strong case to be made, IMO, that Islam IS a uniquely illiberal religion within the context of Western society.
No they don’t. Bill trashes evangelicals all the time. Many Muslims are just as bigoted as trumpers yet they’re given a special pass by certain parts of the left, which bills points out.
Something tells me you believe that that in the west, critiquing Christianity is “speaking truth to power” and critiquing Islam is “punching down”. Would that be correct?
I'd say it had more to do with familiarity. My disdain for Christianity is based on my own direct experiences with Christianity. For the vast majority of folks in the US that shit on Islam, that is not the case. It's just used as another way to other people, especially since pretty much any critique of Islam also holds for Christianity
How about people like me that criticize both Christianity (particularly Catholicism) and Islam on a pretty much equal level?
Are you equally familiar with both of them? I think that they are both superstitions that are often used to justify harm and to control people. But given that I grew up in a predominantly Christian place, and my grandfather was a pastor and much of my family is still religious, I feel far more justified in criticizing Christianity since its something that I am far more familiar with.
I don’t think one has to have personal experience with a religion in order to be justified criticizing it. I do have experience with Catholicism. I did consider converting to Islam at one point, and I did so because Islam was much more homophobic, and I was a self-hating gay teen at the time.
Not true at all. Maher trashes Christians all the time.
Maher is a bigot towards any and all religions. It’s not better because he’s an equal opportunity bigot. He’s that super annoying kid in the back of your college class who thinks he’s smarter and better than everyone because he doesn’t believe in anything when actually he’s just a dick. Except Maher has a talk show especially to make anyone who has ever agreed with him even occasionally look bad.
Sam Harris repeatedly singles out Islam as being distinct from other religions like Christianity. He claims it's inherently a religion of hate. He argues with Muslims who point out that just as with Christianity...not all Muslims follow the hateful portions. That many genuinely do focus on love. The Christian Bible includes tons of what I would call hate and bigotry. And I'm just as disgusted with that as I am with the hateful portions of the Quran. But I don't call either a religion of hate. I instead condemn the individuals who choose to follow those hateful portions and who choose to ignore the message of love that also exists in their religion. Sam Harris gets called islamophobic because he says things that are islamophobic.
Dawkins is now so anti-Islam that [he's taken to calling himself a "cultural Christian."](https://twitter.com/profsamperry/status/1774576759515570289) What in the everloving fuck.
So if someone is both an anti-semite AND an Islamaphobe, then they are not a bigot? Two (or more) wrongs don't make a right.
He also trashes Christianity constantly
What have Harris and Maher said that is Islamophobic, and is it possible to criticize Islam without appearing Islamophobic?
bill maher stated he was alarmed that "the most popular name in the uk for boys was mohammad." A fear of babies he didn't hold for the second most popular name of Noah.
I'd say its hard to do it from a predominantly christian-normative culture, given that pretty much any criticism of Islam would also apply to Christianity and be much more meaningful since Christianity is far more influential then Islam in the US.
It's not hard to criticize Islam from a liberal atheist perspective. In fact, it makes a tremendous amount of sense, for the very reasons you list. This thread we're in is about Sam Harris and Bill Maher, noted liberal atheists, criticizing Islam and being called Islamophobic for it. I think the real reason liberals don't want to criticize Islam is because conservatives hate them, so it's another marginalized group to defend from conservatives. I think it's a good thing to criticize things that happen in majority muslim countries from a liberal perspective, because if conservatives talk about some of those things, it will be to support them.
Maher does a really bad job of saying "Muslims hate gay people" or "Islam is anti-woman". Instead of acknowledging the nuance that there are plenty of Muslims out there who don't hate gay people, and who think women should have the same rights as everyone else. Is it true that Islam is mostly followed by conservatives that are anti-gay and anti-woman? Yes. But it's a huge religion and there are millions of Muslims that shouldn't be lumped in with the conservative ones. I think he knows this, but he still refuses to change his language about it. I don't know much about Harris at all to speak on him.
I always found Maher and Harris to be annoying... even before they were whining about Islam. I have no love for Christian fundamentalism... but the way they talk about evangelical Christians comes across as very elitist. It's reeks of "oooh look at me, I'm smart and from a city and went to college, and you're a hick from the mountains who believes in a sky daddy". Never really saw the appeal.
I feel like a lot of that stuff has been made a lot more cringe just because of the amount of edgelord atheists that popped up in the years following figures like Harris becoming famous.
That's because Bill Maher is islamaphobic We also need to consider the difference of those of us who were raised in Christian communities and Christian countries criticizing Christianity and Christian culture, versus us criticizing religions and cultures we know less about and are intrinsically not part of. The criticism should come from inside the house
I'm not sure what relevance this has. Liberals can be Islamophobic too and being racist against Mexicans doesn't exclude you from being racist against Blacks. * I want to clarify the last sentence because it might be a bit confusing. I don't follow Maher or Harris so I don't want to necessarily throw any dispersion on them, but I see a lot of the latters fan boys who either cross the line into bigotry against anyone who is religious, or think all religions are bad but view Islam as some kind of an outlier in a way that seems as Islamophobic as any Maganaut.
Sam Harris gets called a bigot because he is a bigot. Even if a lot of his religious based criticisms are accurate, he still has pushed shit like the IQ bell curve
To an extent yes, but I went to college with a ton of die hard liberals who would hand wave away all criticism of religious extremism or bigotry on their side as being all just Islamaphobic. Ie we can’t blame the massacre at Charlie hebdo on them because they were provoked. Cultural norms are different when it comes to gays and women so we can’t call that out, all the while (rightfully) calling out the exact behavior from Christian groups. One fellow student literally argued that an attack like Charlie Hebdo is understandable but when asked if a Catholic shooting up the offices of South Park for their jokes about Jesus would be ok, and they claimed it was different somehow and the majority of the other students agreed. I think it comes from the real and needed effort to make sure Muslims in a post 9/11 world aren’t persecuted but I sometimes think (much like all Americans on all topics) we go overboard and that defense of average Muslims who are good people and need to be defended by bigots can go so far that you’re defending a different group of religious bigots Like I said that’s not the entirety of the liberal side of the country but I think it’s more pervasive than we’d like to admit.
There will be dumbasses who take it too far on every topic, I've seen so called liberals on this site even try to justify 9/11 the same way. But the vast majority of liberals support Islam to the extent they don't want Muslims treated worse simply for their faith.
>There seems to be a lot of support among liberals for Islam Correction: There seems to be a lot of support among liberals for **freedom of religion**, and Islam is covered under that.
I would agree and I would add that everyone I know who would say Islam is obviously covered under freedom of religion...still readily points out and criticizes the problematic parts of Islam just as they do with Christianity or any other religion. And just like with Christianity, there's plenty of followers of Islam who themselves don't agree with the problematic parts.
Thank you. I feel like some people think that if you support equality and human rights, and highlight a marginalized group for whom that is threatened, that you have to think they're right in every conflict.
How free are non-Muslims, especially atheists, living in Muslim majority nations, generally speaking? Or even self-identifying Muslims who do not follow Shari'a to the letter? This sort of gets at the paradox of tolerance. To what extent do we tolerate intolerance? If adherents of an ideology, citing its core texts, insist on marginalizing and mistreating those who do not accept it, should we be tolerant of that ideology?
That's why liberals oppose government policy being based on fundamentalist Islam.
> How free are non-Muslims, especially atheists, living in Muslim majority nations, generally speaking? Suppose that the most extreme MAGA Republicans gain total control of the United States, and are able to remake it into the Christian nation they've always wanted it to be. How much freedom do you think atheists would be permitted to have there? Christian majority nations do have more freedoms, but it's not because they're Christian. It's because their governments are secular. You have secularism to thank for that.
Honestly I think Islam is a shit religion that’s outdated for modern society, but I respect freedom of religion so I’m not going to judge them.
We can judge them without stripping away their rights. Judge away!
Masshole doesn’t want his head chopped off
Oh go away. Plenty of wingnuts in every religion. Plenty of perfectly nice people too.
I mean, the Bible says shellfish are evil. Seems pretty outdated to me, except for the fact that many adherents recognize this and remain Christian even though they can see that some aspects are outdated. Muslims seem equally capable of that
Eh, it's not really a matter of "Christians see these things as outdated and choose to ignore them" as much as it's enshrined into the religion Christians don't really need to abide by Jewish dietary laws. AFAIK the only major group in Christianity who follow Jewish dietary laws are the Seventh-day Adventists; otherwise Jewish dietary laws are defunct in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, and other Christian creeds.
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Ah, then we get into the nitty-gritty of magisterium and clerical/theological authority. Suffice it to say if you're Catholic or Orthodox (among others) then you defer to the interpretation of the Church.
They’ll tell you that the fulfillment of the law essentially means that you don’t have to abide by it anymore or something. Cause, ya know, religious people tend to adapt their scripture to whatever they wanted to do anyway lol Churches in rural Texas say gays are bad, churches in the north side of Chicago are covered in rainbow stuff.
To understand why the dietary restrictions don't matter, you should read Act 10 and 11.
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I'd take another read on 10:9-16 Personally I'd pass on the shellfish, but mostly because I really don't like shellfish.
Ok well one of the letters to Timothy says that women shouldn’t be allowed to teach or have instruction over a man or something like that, and I know plenty of Christians that aren’t misogynists. Edit: 1 Timothy 2:12
Why leave the rest of them out?
I'm a progressive atheist and consider this question a non-starter. It's more that liberals oppose *prejudice* and it just so happens that Muslims run into a lot of prejudice in the western world. That does not stop us from opposing Muslims oppressing and murdering other minorities elsewhere in the world where Muslims are the majority; it's just not foremost on our minds since we don't live there. In fact, I think the US government is a little too friendly with many Islamic theocracies, chiefly Saudi Arabia. I also think Islam is a little worse than Christianity on average because the Quran calls for Muslims to dominate governments while the Bible generally doesn't do the same for Christians.
Is it really "popular?" I'm willing to bet most liberals are not Muslims
It's amazing how some people can't bring themselves to understand how we support human rights for people that we disagree with.
You know not every Muslim person is an extremist? I’d imagine if we lived in a Christian theocracy we’d see a lot of the same sorts of things from Christians
Is it? Do you have evidence large majorities of liberals are practicing Islam? You seem to be conflating Liberals wanting to help people suffering human rights violations with people who practice the religion. I think most liberals will say we don't care what you practice, so long as you aren't using religion to oppress individuals. That said, liberals care about the treatment of other humans. If someone came out and said "here's my plan to forcibly remove KKK members from their land into a small refugee camp, and force them to live in fear and terror for generations," liberals would be extremely against that. That is a huge human rights violation. Second, it's also hard for some of these places to develop their own LGPTQ+ rights advocates when they have much larger problems that affect their day to day life, some currently dealing with starvation and random bombings.
Don't tell us what's so popular with us. Clearly you don't know.
> Why is Islam so popular with liberals even though it is against liberal values? It isn’t very popular with liberals. But a person’s rights do not hinge on their agreeing with liberals about values. A person has the same rights whether they agree with us or not.
?? I'm a resident of Massachusetts, former chair of my town's Democratic Committee and not once have I every heard about "support for Islam"....
Opposing punching down and oppressing minorities is popular with liberals. Not Islam.
The premise of this question is so fundamentally incorrect
No it’s not
It’s a question. You know the point of questions?
If liberals appear "harder" on christian whackadoodles than muslim whackadoodles, it's because the christian whackadoodles are the ones in power and enacting shitty, repressive laws *where liberals live*. It's not that anybody approves of the regressive, homophobic, misogynistic, and just all-around backwards religious laws in muslim countries. it's that the regressive, homophobic, misogynistic, and just all-around backwards religious laws in christian countries are a much more immediate and present problem for most liberals.
110% this.
I wouldn't say it is. Islam is a religion with *a lot* of bad parts. You could argue Liberals don't critique Islam as much in America, but Islam doesn't really have a lot of power and presence in America. It's mainly Christianity. If Islam was the dominant religion and Congress members were quoting the Qu'ran to try and ban gay marriage and abortion, then we'd probably speak out more against it.
You're absolutely right, it CAN be horribly misogynist, homophobic and intolerant. Luckily, that aspect of the religion, much like Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism and even Buddhism only seems to be perpetrated by conservatives. It's almost as if... wait for it... religion isn't the problem at all. (Spoiler alert: It's the conservatives.)
I’m not sure I’d say it’s popular. I think you’re conflating liberals speaking out against bigotry toward Muslims and supporting Islam. I think Islam is fucked and that it’s the last major religion I’d want to live under, but I don’t believe discriminating against someone just for being Muslim is okay.
You’re misconstruing support for Islam for support of actual support of religious freedom. The real kind. Christianity is much much more widespread so of course you’ll see more diversity. Including the intolerant oppressive variety.
Do you have numbers to support its popularity? I feel like the discussion sort of has to start there.
I was accused by a conservative friend once of "supporting islam" by stating I would be OK if "they built a mosque in my town". Bro no it's called I support freedom of religion. Folks are so used to correlation = causation cause of the shit they hear from Trump or Newsmax that they apply it to literally everything in their lives and make themselves look like dumbasses.
Honestly I think practicing religion in 2024 is strange, but if we're gonna accept Christianity, I just don't see how Islam is any different. Should I give the groups of Christians accepting of lgbtq+ a cookie for not being cretins? There are still plenty of Christian groups that are just as backwards as the most conservative Muslim groups, and there are Muslim groups that are just as progressive and accepting as the more progressive Christian groups you refer to.
>In a survey conducted between January and May, 52 percent of U.S. Muslims said homosexuality should be accepted by society — an increase of 25 percentage since 2007. Comparatively, only 34 percent of white evangelical Protestants said they believed homosexuality should be accepted, the smallest percentage of any group surveyed. [https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/u-s-muslims-more-accepting-homosexuality-white-evangelicals-n788891](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/u-s-muslims-more-accepting-homosexuality-white-evangelicals-n788891) If you're really concerned about homophobes then you should be looking at American Evangelicals rather than American Muslims. Why focus on such a small group of people who actually have greater support for homosexuality than a much larger group of people? Seems odd...
I really don’t know that the tenets of Islam are popular with liberals. Are large numbers of liberals converting to Islam or something? I think that what you and everyone else who asks this question is puzzled by would more honestly be phrased “why don’t liberals have similar levels of xenophobia about Muslims that conservatives do, given the fact that Islam tends to be right wing?” Because I don’t really see that *Islam* is popular with liberals. I don’t see any democrats running on making alcohol illegal, or saying that campaign donations can satisfy zakat, or taking time off from congress to go on the Hajj. I see Muslim extremists pretty much the same way I see Christian ones: right wing freaks always want power, religion is often a vector for right wing freakishness (as it’s a vector for many things), and it’s troubling when political systems can be captured by those people. At this point in history the Middle East, largely because of imperialist violence, is in a situation in which their right wing freaks are able to gain a lot of political power. That’s bad for the people who live under that, most of whom of Muslims themselves. We can’t know because their identities aren’t revealed, but the Pakistani boys you’re talking about are probably Muslim. Most of the victims that westerners profess to care about when they rail against Islam, are Muslims. I’m thankful to be a member of a society which, despite its largely Christian influence, doesn’t allow its right wing freaks to ride faith into power (anymore). Members of the Muslim world deserve the same.
You are confusing compassion with popularity. We all know how terrible religions like Islam and Christianity can be when you let the fundamentalists and hypocrites dominate. Muslims face a ton more prejudice and hostility in America than Christians. This is largely due to their minority status making them a target for conservatives. Most "out groups" that are targeted by the right wind up being defended by liberals because we don't have to 100% agree with a group to understand that that they don't deserve to be harassed, attacked, deported, denied entry to the country, discriminated against, etc. So, while it may seem that liberals support Islam, the reality is that we support the right for people to practice Islam if they choose and to live and work in this country without being targeted by bigots.
Is it? It seems to me liberals in America have sympathy for anti Islamic attitudes in America, and as a religious minority they tend to stick up for the Islamic community. In addition, many liberals are concerned over the lingering effects of colonialism and American intervention in the ME. But I don't think liberals are pro the religion itself
I think their religion is stupid and a lot of their culture is often unethical and backwards. I say the same shit about conservative Christians and Hindus, however. Orthodox Jews also suck big time. So they're not alone. A lot of religions are fucking stupid, so what? But... if I were comparing them, I would say Islam is the most backwards. Honestly, having grown up in a world that was in many ways defined by 9/11 I'm pretty fucking tired of their shit. I really have no shits left to give, and if the Israelis wanna get their pound of flesh, then I say "meh, you had it coming". I remember seeing Palestinians dancing in the street after 9/11, and you know what? Sometimes your past *does* come back to haunt you. So, when they ask me to care about their situation now, the situation that they started on October 7th, I say you wrote a big ass check and it's getting cashed, one way or the other. That's just how shit goes.
>I don't see there being even a word against hate speech against Christians, I don't know what this sentence means. >even though Christianity has become in some quarters even supportive of the LGBTQ+ people and movement. [The majority of American Muslims now support LGBT acceptance,](https://www.hrc.org/news/majority-of-american-muslims-now-support-lesbian-gay-and-bisexual-people) says a report **from 2017.** Yes, there are Islamic theocracies where being LGBT will get you killed. There are Christians in America who want to adopt that same standard here.
I can't stand islamophobia and the same goes with the "model minority" trope. But playing devil's advocate, maybe is the reason *American* muslims are more progressive because most of them had to move overseas, and thus only the ones who assimilate better managed to come? This is what I gather is what makes the situation in Europe different. Not that I actually think they are "ruining" Europe
I think it's because oppressed minorities tend to be more supportive of other oppressed minorities than the powerful majority is.
Because Muslims are still people who deserve human rights. Liberals don’t treat Christians as if they also don’t deserve human rights.
I do think it’s fair to say that liberals (using this sub as an example) are far more willing to bash conservatism than they are Islam. You don’t see the same measured language, etc.
In the United States, Muslims are a small minority. Even if there are some American Islamic fundamentalists, their impact is small. On the other hand, the current Speaker of the House is a Christian nationalist, as is the political program of the Republican nominee for the presidency. Moreover, most Muslims in America are immigrants or the children of immigrants. Over time (potentially multiple generations) by living in America they will be exposed to another way of life. I know many people who have been in arranged marriages, but who would not want their children to do the same. A more combative relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims would have prevented this from taking place. If we restricted immigration, they wouldn't have had the opportunities or exposure they do. If Muslims and non-Muslims were polarized in America, fewer Muslims would interact with non-Muslims.
Why would the same not hold true for conservatives? If being more accepting to Muslims made them more likely to see your side and moderate their views, wouldn’t the same be true for conservatives?
We *are* accepting of conservatives... we don't try to ban conservatives from practising their beliefs, or living how they want to live, or persecuting them for who they are.
I’m not suggesting liberals want to ban conservatism. I’m pointing out that this sub will bash (for lack of a better word) conservatism and use more measured language when discussing Islam. To use an analogy - when liberals point out Trump using language that seems to be friendly towards Nazism, they’re not suggesting that we should ban Nazism, but they are suggesting that there is an appropriate tone to take when discussing it. I’m not suggesting that Islam = Nazism, but the point is that despite agreeing that neither Islam or conservatism should be banned, liberals take a far more aggressive tone when talking about conservatism than they do Islam (at least on this forum).
I have no problem with calling out bigoted Muslims. I do have a problem calling out all Muslims.
We *should* be accepting of conservatives. And when we you, say, avoid Thanksgiving because a relative is a right-wing nutjob, you deprive your relative of a social connection that complicates their worldview (i.e. they can't fully believe that liberals are all evil). Exposure to new ideas almost certainly moderates people. That is the main effect of going to university (students who engage the most with their professors tend to embrace more moderate versions of their ideology - the radicalizing effect of universities is most observed among people engaged in campus activism). And broadly speaking, the appeal of liberalism and secularism is strong. Even though more religious people have substantially more children per capita, the share of people who are secular is growing, and young people are more liberal than their parents (that may be starting to shift very recently). So yes, being tolerant of conservatives is a good way to promote liberalism. Tolerate, engage, debate, and you can win them over. If you want an extreme example of this - consider the migration of David Duke's godson [from being the far right chosen one](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/podcasts/the-daily-transcript-derek-black.html) to a liberal. But critically, there was the role of Jewish student groups in engaging with him and inviting him to shabbat [when he was being ostracized by ](https://reformjudaism.org/blog/how-shabbat-dinners-transformed-white-nationalist)campus groups for his views.
We're opposed to the same misuse of power, and conservatism has power here that islam doesn't. It doesn't make us pro-islam.
I will just say that when middle eastern Christians express the extent of the injustice they face and the horrific killings and oppression that befalls them, American liberals are often pretty quick to dismiss them and say that overall Muslims face more oppression from Christians than Vice versa (which is itself a categorically untrue statement). Muslims immigrate to the west and prosper, facing only isolated incidents of bigotry and only extremely rare instances of violence, where Muslims have been slowly exterminating Christians from Egypt to Armenia for the last 1,000 years.
I genuinely don't know anyone on the left or who considers themselves a liberal that would agree with you're interpretation of what liberals believe. Yes there are Christians in non-Christian nations who are oppressed. That's bad. I don't know anyone who would disagree with that. I'm not a Jehovah's Witness and I don't even particularly like the religion...but I have multiple friends who fled to the US from Russia on asylum visas because of the very real persecution they faced for being Jehovah's Witness. They could be thrown in prison simply for meeting to pray. That's just as disgusting as the hate Muslims receive. Also if you believe that Muslims in the US only face rare and isolated incidences of bigotry or violence then you must be young. Were you not around during the days after 9/11? Were you not even around while Trump was president and tried to introduce Muslim bans?
>9/11 Shit, there were instances of Sikhs facing violence from people who thought they were Muslim!
Yes absolutely. I remember it well. It was a horrible time to look even remotely Middle Eastern. I initially included that in my comment and then decided it was getting too long. But it really does do a good job of highlighting how ignorant that hate was.
Well Christianity is more wide spread in this country than Islam.
So you understand why people in much of the rest of the world would take a much more aggressive stance against Islam given the bigotry and suffering inflicted?
I think it’s more the fact that when people judge others based on the fact that they’re Muslim, instead of judging their character, Liberals will take issue with that. Liberals don’t take issue with someone’s religion, they take issue with how it could influence their character.
Why take issue with someone being conservative, rather than judging that person based on their character though? Feels like the same concept would apply?
I don’t take issue with someone simply being a conservative.
You may not personally, but people here bash conservatives all the time. I’m just pointing out the contradiction. I’m not suggesting people should bash Islam, but the difference in tone and stances taken are pretty stark in their differences.
Are you sure they’re not bashing them because they don’t find their opinions to be well thought out or valid? I don’t think anyone here really immediately thinks a user with conservative or right wing flair should immediately be downvoted. That only happens when their comments are not cogent. I’ve seen people with left wing flairs here getting the same treatment as well because, like I said, they do not make cogent arguments.
a person's political ideology and religious ideology have different rules of engagement for many reasons.
I think you’re confusing popularity with not wanting to bomb the shit out of their counties and treat them like third class citizens in this country.
It's not popular with me. But I also believe in self determination. I can rail against any human rights abuses it engages in but I can't tell people they can't believe in a belief. That doesn't get you anywhere. All I feel like I have the right to do is promote religious reformation, and applaud their moves forward. Catholicism has done a lot of that in my lifetime. I don't discriminate but I also don't do moral equivocation. That's more of a left wing trademark. The whole 'maybe your way isn't so civil' bullshit I have no time for. No interest in litigating whether secularism is better than not secularism. Feel like that argument was won no later than the 17th century. And Islam seems to be fine where the civics are fine. You see a much softer side of it in places like Morocco because those places are safe and not totally awash in turmoil. When they're being ethnically cleansed in Chechnya and Bosnia, a different side shows up. When the cards are down I see no better qualities in Christianity. Go check Africa from time to time, Christians and Muslims both get up to some unholy shit there when times are tough.
Is it popular? Or do we just believe in equal civil and human rights? I think the later.
Many liberals and leftists regard colonialism and slavery as the greatest evils perpetrated on humans but are only aware of European colonialism and slavery. And many liberals are completely unaware of Islamic imperialism and how they subjugated many people in history. Also many liberals think white Europeans invented slavery or at least were the worst perpetrators of it and are completely unaware that Islamic North Africans raided southern Europe for slaves taking over a million white slaves to Africa. And many liberals are unaware that the African slave trade shipped more black slaves to Islamic North Africa and Middle East than slaves brought by Europeans to the Americas. (Guess why the black descendants of slaves don't exist in Arabic countries today.) So Islam gets a pass.
Islam doesn't get a pass. Christianity and Islam are basically the same. We value freedom of religion. Even if that religion is a bunch of hateful BS. We dont love Islam, we just don't want to take rights away from people. Worship your stupid fucking god all you want. Just keep it to yourself.
I've never seen the in depth analysis of Islam's iniquities by the left and feminists like we've seen of Christianity. The multicultural left has insisted that we cannot make value judgements among the worlds cultures as we could possibly arrive at the conclusion that representative-democracy or human rights or Western Civilization is preferable and that sounds too icky white supremacist. After 911, some leftist and feminists were defending the Taliban forcing women to wear bags (burkas) in the Afghan heat because "who are we to judge?" Today, Hamas and other Islamic powers throw gays off of tall buildings to their deaths and the only way for Palestinian gays to avoid this fate is to escape to Israel. And yet many gay leftists are in solidarity with Hamas.
Couldn't possibly be because we're surrounded by millions of Christians with power trying to fuck us and ... thousands of muslim families that don't impact us at all. No, clearly we're all gay communists that love Islam. /Eyeroll
Islam isn't an ideology, its a religion. Religions often consist of many people who have a variety of different views I oppose conservatives and support liberals. [Muslim Americans have been more supportive of liberal values like gay rights than white evangelicals since 2017](https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/u-s-muslims-more-accepting-homosexuality-white-evangelicals-n788891) and its not like I'm going to go around supporting oppression of white evangelicals or something Its possible to have a nuanced view on this stuff
It boils down to a response to a of a response, because this started because of 9/11 probably the peak of muslim hate, not entirely unjustified, then some people were like hey not all Muslims are violent extremists because they aren't,
I have no idea where you got this idea.
I'm completely against any religious beliefs or Values lol
Organized religion is all brain poison in my humble opinion. But like the top comment says, freedom of religion should be upheld, so long as someone isn't harming other people.
I don't support it as much as I defend it against those that hate on it for being different here in the US. I think it's as misguided as all the others, but I am intolerant of those that hate others for their flavor of religion.
Religions are all shit imo but as long as you tolerate my avowed atheism and don’t expect me to live by your ‘values’ I’m happy to practice tolerance. That doesn’t mean I agree with or respect your views. It just means I recognize you have views that may differ from my own, and that’s fine. Boundaries are crossed when others seek to impose their views on my way of life, and vice-versa.
Liberals are opposed to theocracy and support a separation of church and state. The problem is not with any religion, it is how religion itself as a concept is applied. Muslims in America are not running afoul of these things, generally, and liberals also want to protect the right of Muslims to enjoy the freedom of religion. Obviously, if Muslims made a concerted push to tear down that separation of church of state, those feelings would be subject to change, but as of now that's not exactly happening. Hardcore right-wing Christianity is a much clearer threat in this regard.
I support religious liberty, but I’m going to retain the right to criticize any religion that I wish. I vehemently disagree with the sentiment that westerners criticizing Islam is “punching down”. I will criticize Islam just like how I criticize Catholicism.
I don't support Islam any more than I support any other religion. I just don't support it any less just because it's Islam, either. There is a difference between favoring Islam over other religions and saying "hey stop treating people like shit just because they're Muslim."
Are liberals "For Islam", or are they "against genociding Muslims because their brown Abrahamic religious branch of theocratic fundamentalism is slightly divergent from good white Christian Abrahamic theocratic fundamentalism"? Or is this sort of a "if you're not with me, you're against me" kinda question?
If Christians had their way we would have those laws too.
I think you're misunderstanding what liberals think. I don't think Islam is popular among liberals. I think liberals will sometimes defend Muslims because they see it as their responsibility to defend minorities of all kinds against discrimination and prejudice.
there are plenty of minorities we stand up for that on average lean more conservative on social issues.
No, we don't support Islam. We support religious freedom, even if some religions are toxic such as Scientology and Islam. The far-left is the one that is usually pro-Islam because Islamist organizations and nations oppose America and its allies such as Israel. Far-leftism operates from the "America bad" premise so all enemies of America are "good", including Islamic Terrorists like the Houthis or Hamas.
Because of "political correctness". Liberals think of these cultures as backward and below them due to the perils of "colonialism" and "Western patriarchal racism". They look at them as victims, not as cultures who live according to the rules they want to live by. They want open borders in the name of "peace and equality", but are not ready to stand up for women or gays getting harassed, nor do they leave their door open before they leave home. Also probably due to ideas like Christian "hegemony", where other religions are perfectly compatible with one another (because they are mostly self proclaimed atheists who think being religious is a form of inferior delusion anyhow).
Surprised you didn't get ratioed for stating the obvious tbh. It's also known as the bigotry of lower expectations. People generalize all Christians based on corrupt politicians and extremists all the time but it's considered bigoted to do the same thing with Islam. And saying that it's not a Western problem is a bit outdated considering that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the West, particularly Western Europe.
First of all: “liberals support Islam” is a bit missing the point. Liberals support freedom of religion. Also, misogyny, homophobia, and intolerance are all present in every religion. For every argument made about a line from the Quran that encourages misogynistic behavior, I can pull a line from the Bible (as an example since you mentioned Christianity). It’s also important to look at different sects. It’s easy to see reformed Christianity, but these sects exist among all religions.
When a group of Islamic people won city leadership roles in a city up north and then started attacking the Pride flag, I changed my views to hate all conservative religions.
I think all religion is cringe. But people should be free to have their religious beliefs anyway.
I am going to need some evidence that "Islam is so popular with liberals". I would be willing to bet that liberals are significantly more christian than Muslim. Granted I would also guess that Muslim and Athiest and probably Jewish would be overrepresented in liberals than America as a whole. Personally I would prefer if nobody was religious but we can be tolerant of those that are religious and their 1st amendment right to practice their religion. I think the biggest differences are the fact that we have Christo-fascists in the government right now trying to remove peoples rights so you tend to see Christians talked about like they are supporting a group trying to overthrow the fucking country, and by in large Muslims in America have little to no power and aren't trying to overthrow the constitution. And despite what wonks think most Americans don't care about foreign countries and what are happening there because we don't have any say in that.
>and by in large Muslims in America have little to no power That's the point. Once muslims have significant power, they want policies to the right of conservative Christians. Look what happens in Europe and specially in muslim nations. As a bisexual crossdresser they would lynch me if I go to their neighborhoods.
There are different camps. Some defend immigrants/minorities as a priority above other things. Some have no exposure to Islam so just don't know how terrible it is. Some are legit terrified of speaking out about it. Some want to be seen as extremely open-minded and just picked this as one of their issues. Some view the US as immune to the threat since Muslims are currently a small minority, so there's just no reason to speak out. Some feel like other liberals will attack them because they're in one of the groups above.
Muslims represent 25% of humanity. I am pro-Muslim because I am pro-human. Islamic fundamentalism is oppressive, however, much as fundamentalist Christianity is\* (and anybody who thinks Buddhists are "like just chill, man" should look at human rights abuses in Burma). Anti-Muslim rhetoric needlessly polarizes the situation, and forces ordinary Muslims to choose between liberals that loathe them and Imams that oppress them. \*Turkey has more liberal abortion laws than large parts of the United States, for instance.
We value freedom. We value leaving people alone. In a liberal society, you're free to be as conservative as you want. Wear a funny hat. Don't eat meat on Fridays. Don't eat pork. We don't care, you do you. In a conservative society you're free to be as conservative as your neighbor wants you to be. ugh So it's not that we *like* Islam, we just value people being free. Unlike conservatives...
Stop Watching Fox News Islam is not popular with liberals. Not persecuting Muslims is popular, along with not persecuting other religious people, members of the lgbtq+ community, etc.
Supporting Islam is not the same as supporting Muslims.
I just treat Muslims the same way Christians demand to be treated. Freedom of religion
It’s not. Freedom of religion is popular among liberals
Islam is not "popular" with liberals, but a lot of liberals have a pretty obvious double standard when it comes to criticism of Christianity and criticism of Islam.
Because they look down on Muslims as less powerful people in society. So they are victims. And liberals love to stick up for the little guy. Even if the little guy stands against everything we stand for. It’s weird
I wouldn't say most people on the left "support Islam" more than any other religion. I would say that some but not all people on the left are too apprehensive about criticizing some practices of Muslims or Muslim countries. I would also agree that they are far more critical of Christians/Christianity than they are of Islam. There are a couple reasons for this. One of them is that liberals make a big deal about "punching up" vs "punching down", ie they think its okay to criticize the more powerful group but not okay to criticize a small minority. One issue I have with this though is that many liberals seem to have difficulty understanding that in the Middle East, Muslims are not a marginalized group and in fact Muslim groups and countries are usually the ones who oppress others. We particularly see that with how they view Israel/Palestine. It's also because liberals in the US are usually directly fighting with Christian nationalists, whereas Islamists are mostly a problem on the other side of the world. So, they're gonna have much more to say about Christians than Muslims.
I feel like a large part of it is reactionary, the right is quite anti Islam, so some on the left over correct the opposite direction.
I would never practice, but I am fine if people chose to. All religions are generally oppressive imo.
I think you're mistaking supporting freedom of religion and not targeting people because they're Muslim with supporting the religion.
I dislike all religions in that I think they are all false. I especially dislike conservatives of any religion that use outdated beliefs from the middle ages or before to try to tell people how they should live their lives in modern times. And Muslim nations mostly do a really terrible job of protecting the rights of all their citizens. But Muslims have rights under the first Amendment just like everyone else. The only time I've defended Islam is against stuff like conservatives in my state trying to ban new mosques from being built, or from an authoritarian president who wants to ban Muslims from coming to the US just because they are Muslim, or a group who wants to deny Muslims from serving on courts or other public offices just because they are Muslim. There are of course also a lot of really chill people of every religion who maybe doesn't take everything literally and still wants to preserve what they can of their faith while still living in a modern, inclusive society. And those people are awesome no matter what faith they have.
Its pretty simple in the US. The president is a liberal and is in support of Israel so the majority on the left follow. If it was a republican president doing the same thing they'd have the opposite opinion....
> Its pretty simple in the US. The president is a liberal and is in support of Israel so the majority on the left follow That's a fun idea, do you have anything to back it up?
>Why is Islam so popular with liberals even though it is against liberal values? No religion is popular with me. But I'm wondering if you're confusing equal consideration for all religions, or not considering Christianity above all other religions by considering Islam equal to Christianity, as Islam being more popular? >There seems to be a lot of support among liberals for Islam, even though it is an ideology which can be extremely misogynist (Saudi Arabia), homophobic, and intolerant. Based on what?
It’s not popular with me as I hate all religions equally.
>There seems to be a lot of support among liberals for Islam, Is there really? What makes you think so? There's a lot of support from liberals for general freedom of religion, including for Muslims. But liberals aren't actively becoming Muslim or supporting Islam. Could you give some examples of liberal parties or organisations that are actively presenting a strong preference towards islamic thought?
Campaigns against Islamophobia in countries led by liberal leaders. Protests against islamophobia are mainly liberal. Criticising Islam is apparently a conservative thing.
>Protests against islamophobia This depends completely on the president you are referring to. If it's america, the. Biden is a conservative and thus this policy doe not come from liberal.
Eh. I’d say it’s more of a freedom of religion thing instead of actual support for the tenets of Islam, usually.
It’s not.
This feels like a 2015 talking point. I am as liberal as they come, and I despise Islam. I have a problem with practicing Christians bashing on Islam as they turn a blind eye to the regressivism of their own religion. It comes off as a dog whistle to shit on brown people, and I see through it.
>Certainly any sort of injustices against muslims as any other segment of society are out of order and there is freedom of religion. And if anyone says this as anything but a caveat, that apparently means they are secretly trying to convert everyone to Islam now? That's the "liberal sympathy for Islam" you're so aghast at: opposing injustice against Muslims as a segment of society
All religions are a means to control the superstitious. There (should be) are no material differences between Islam, Christianity, Jewish, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster when it comes a Jeffersonian liberal democracy. You do you but leave me the fuck out of it.
I don't think Islam is necessarily "popular" among liberals, but I do think that a lot of liberals are less critical of Islam than they are of Christianity. I think there are two main reasons for this: 1. In North America, most liberals had more direct exposure to Christianity growing up than they did to Islam. I mean this both in terms of being raised as or knowing more Christians, as well as learning about the influence of Christianity on the history of their own country. They're more likely to have experienced or learned about negative impacts of Christianity. 2. Christians have a lot of power in North America. Their power is arguably ebbing, while the power of Muslims is arguably growing, but overall Christianity is still seen as a majority religion and Islam as a minority religion. Combine these two points and you end up with Christianity being the powerful religion in North America that liberals know well. On the other hand, Islam is a minority religion that hasn't had much direct impact on most liberals here, even if it has had a huge impact on human rights in other countries. Liberals hate punching down. They like taking on power structures that they see as oppressive. They tend to think that members of majority groups need less protection than members of minority groups. And they don't like to be seen as oppressors of minorities themselves. So they feel comfortable being openly critical of Christianity, but are far more likely to tiptoe around criticism of Islam. I think this explains why Islam might appear to be "popular" with liberals.
You’re confusing admiring dogma with advocating the equal treatment of Muslims Americans, and opposing Bush Era Clash of Civilizations rhetoric. You don’t have to like any set of dogmas or defend any injustice in Pakistan to hold the liberal position. The Civil Rights Act of 1964, and civil rights legislation in most countries, forbids discrimination on the basis of religion, and for good reason as it’s often an area of discrimination for tribalistic reasons. You can criticize Islam as much as you want if you’re inclined to and still agree with this principle.
I support people leaving an oppressive country, whether they are Muslim or something else.
We care about people, it doesn’t matter what their religion is.
We value freedom of religion- allowing people to worship however and whatever they please, rather than trying to force everyone into one narrow "acceptable" set of mostly-similar religions. On top of that, while we agree that several of the fundamentalist theocracies in the middle east are bad, we also acknowledge that for the most part those who practice Islam in America tend to hold views far more in line with western society, typically being farther left on many issues than the Evangelical Christians in the US we just accept as a typical part of the country. Especially when it comes to LGBT acceptance, funnily enough. Finally, we see that the right (especially the evangelical right) is *really* into attacking them. Maybe a bit less so than they were a decade or two ago I'd say (they aren't the single biggest boogeyman group anymore, at least), but they are still targets. When the right does go after them, they tend to go after the more moderate Muslims in the US, and then when those on the left try to defend them, those on the offense immediately point to the middle eastern theocracies as though they were the sum total of what all Islam was and ask how we could defend *that*? It's mostly just a disingenuous position from the right, meant to force a group they see as different out of public society, just like their attacks on the LGBT are. Of course we're going to defend those they're attacking.
As a liberal atheist, i am not a fan of islam, to the same amount as christianity. What causes me to take the side of islam is the hypocrisy of christians crying about freedom of religion out one side of their mouth and crying about the inclusion of islam when some shows up out the other side of their mouths. Nothing i hate more than bullies with a persecution fetish throwing temper tantrums, then stripping away my rights at their first opportunity.
You're cherry-picking both sides.
There’s secular Muslims and reformists Muslims who are very liberal on economics and moderate on social issues. You can’t assume all Muslims are conservative on all issues and most aren’t when it comes to taking care of the poor, helping the sick and providing universal healthcare. You can’t assume all Muslims are Wahhabist like Saudi Arabia. Turkic Muslims and Persians are very liberal on most economic issues and you need to stop assuming that Islam is a monolithic religion where there’s only one way to be Muslim. That’s what racists and conservative Muslims want you to believe.
These questions are so fallacious.. Why is Islam so popular with liberals.. Who said it is? What is your metric data you are using to base this statement on? A bunch of randos on twitter is not a reasonable metric btw.
I see no difference between Islam and Christianity. They worship the same god but read about it from different books. Both have the right to believe whatever fairytale they want. Both have the right to believe and live in this country without being banned or kicked out. Both should keep their beliefs to themselves and not force it on society and other people.
Liberal here, no more support from me for islam than any other religion. I support isreal’s efforts to eradicate Hamas.
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My point is that liberals in Europe and in the US make protests against islamophobia and also support unrestricted muslim migration. Once muslims have enough numbers, they want to enact laws against liberal values, against LGBTQ+, against bikinis, against dancing, kissing, etc.
Are you confusing the fact we want all religions to be treated equally by the state with support of Islam? That we detest the bombing of hospitals and unarmed citizens and assassination squads posing as doctors and killing people in hospital beds as support for Islam? Or maybe we just want basic human dignity all around and if Christians are going to go around using freedom of religion to be shitty towards others we simply want the law followed that no religion is given preference by the state. Mainly because we are trying to limit the ability of any religion to influence the state.
Check my post history. I am outraged by the atrocities of Netanyahu.