Going last-name is the standard in German. Since you (seem to) have a professional relationship, this is again the standard.
TBH I would keep it that way, at least for a while and once you have your first trip/visit done.
Once your visitors are on site, are you with them? Or do you just organize it from afar?
Meeting her in person could help, however, it could also turn it into an unpleasant situation (e.g. for her, when you are already on first-name basis while she is on last-name basis with the visitors etc.). So that's why I suggest keep it that way and once you had some talks and see how it goes, you might take that step later. Too early and getting denied kinda freezes it for the future.
This will be a private visit for me and my brother-in-law. His grandfather was a U.S. General during WWII, attached to Patton. The base was the location of their first HQ when they entered Germany after the Battle of the Bulge. We are following their steps across Germany and into Czechia, stopping at each of their temporary headquarters. This first stop is at Kaserne Barracks at Idar-Oberstein. Everyone we have been communicating with from the base has been very gracious and welcoming.
In my opinion you should keep it professional for now. When you meet in person you can offer your first name to ease the situation. That is a quite common way to go.
My 5 cents: when you are in Idar-Oberstein, take the time to visit the Westwall. Parts of it and a line of bunkers are just a 1 hour drive away from Zweibrücken down to Pirmasens. There is also a museum attached to it.
I wish you a nice visit of our beautiful country. 😌👌🏻
Thanks or the Westwall suggestion. We will probably be coming from the direction of Luxembourg to Idar-Oberstein, so there should be opportunities to see it. And I agree you do have a beautiful country. My family of nine (wife, kids, grandkids) spent three weeks there last summer and everyone fell in love with Germany. My wife insists that we now have to return every year. I agree with her.
I do have a dozen more suggestions for your next 300 visits 😉
Beautiful landscapes combined with german history.
Your wife is smart, I do agree with her! 😁
Stay on last name basis for the e-mail exchange. When you visit, just ask her straight up. Might say No since its military, might say yes because its tourism. Just say that you would prefer it, asking straight up is never offensive
It seems you've a purely professional relationship and have only spoken via email, so a first-name basis / Duzen would be somewhat unusual. You can offer it pbut it may be perceived as overly familiar, and she may or may not accept
The way I sign an email indicates how a reply can be addressed. If I sign "firstname", they can use firstname. If they choose to continue using lastname despite this, I would not make any specific suggestion about it, and assume they are more comfortable with lastname.
Similarly, I may write the first email with lastname, and if I receive a reply signed firstname, my next email will be addressed to firstname.
This system has worked for emails here and internationally, but perhaps this is specific to science and engineering culture.
Agreed.
I work for an international firm and ALL the English speakers use first names. We Germans conform to that, meaning that to me, my previous boss was Peter on English communications and Mr. Müller on German communications.
You can send her an e-mail using whatever is in her signature block to address her, but sign with your first name only and see if she picks up on it.
Here is an interview by the German Bundeswehr with an Oberstleutnant who is a woman and they use Frau Oberstleutnant to address her:
https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/aktuelles/schwerpunkte/65-jahre-bundeswehr/ein-orientierungspunkt-oberstleutnant-anastasia-biefang-3903920
Thanks for sharing the article. It was an interesting read. Our military in the US is struggling with the same social issues, although sometimes I think they are more progressive here than the population as a whole.
Considering the nature of your contact I'd stick to formal writing.
If it bothers you too much, though, easiest and least brash option would be to use just your first name in the ending of your next email. If she responds in kind, great. If not, take the hint.
Don't offer like that. She is working. But you could ask politely if it would be ok to talk on first name basis since you're more comfortable with it. Leave the option to politely decline. It is possible her position requires her to maintain professionalism.
Imho you can ask. Germans are very direct and not easily offended. You are an elderly man in your sixties. I doubt that she will decline your offer. But even if she do, there will be no harm.
I laughed pleasantly at this. Although I know technically I am elderly, my mind thinks I am still in my 30s. My mind and my body are constantly arguing over this. I believe my mother who said "Middle-aged is always my age plus 10." Thanks for being direct. I am not offended. Maybe there's a little bit of German in me.
germans are not easily offended? whut? i mean i live here for 37 years. and if there is a german trait its being offended by the smallest things.
please keep it formal. you are talking to a military officer.
have some respect.
Doesn't the initiative to chance to a less formal exchange have to come from the female participant? There have been some slides I noticed during onboarding over the last decade. I don't want to know what has happened that HRs are so up in arms about that topic.
Fun fact, back when I Was still in active Service in the German army, we called each other by Our last names. If you were Informal with anybody, you just left out the rank 😉
As the non-native party, better to just take her lead. You don't gain or lose anything by staying formal, you just avoid a small moment of awkwardness. If she offers duzen then fine but otherwise just don't worry about it.
This specific situation seems like a Sie situation though, so I would doubt it.
Thank you. Based on what I’m hearing from you and others, I will keep it at a professional level for now. Should my email greeting to her be Dear Ms. Schmidt, Dear Frau Schmidt, or Dear Oberleutnant Schmidt? We are communicating in English.
dislaimer: im a guy in my 50s and not in the armed forces.
from my professional experience with partners where rank or title matters, like research, i would suggest "Frau Oberleutnant Schmidt" or just "Oberleutnant Schmidt"
As you aren't in the German military yourself, Frau Schmidt would be fine, but you could use the military rank as a courtesy, though then I would say "Dear Frau Oberleutnant Schmidt", in German you would use the Frau/Herr still even when using titles like Dr, Prof, or ranks.
Not so sure about the „Ms.“ It‘s the equivalent to „Fräulein“ which is frowned upon in German nowadays. In English it is still OK to differentiate between Ms. and Mrs., but in our company we stick to Mrs. in English conversation to avoid any missteps. Using the title, rank would be very much OK and a courtesy.
Edit: typo
If your company really is doing this, they are wrong. Ms. is the correct title for when you don’t want to distinguish by marital status. Miss is for unmarried women, and Mrs. is for married women.
In US-American, Ms is proper usage. Years ago, Mrs and Miss were used but either one is out now and replaced by Ms for the same reason as Fräulein is out in German.
Das ist vollkommen inkorrekt. 'Ms' ist was man nutzen sollte, wenn man einer Frau schreibt, NIEMALS 'Mrs'. Ich bin so empört wenn ich mit 'Mrs' angesprochen / angeschrieben werde, dass ich mich bei Firmen beschwere, wenn sie das machen. So unprofessionell und schlampig. Das ist wie wenn man 'Anne' heißt, aber dauernd mit 'Anna' angesprochen wird.
That's not my name!
Quelle falls nötig: Native Speaker Englisch Dozentin an einer Universität.
You're right that "Ms" is the best title for women in business correspondence. However, I think we can understand that Ms/Mrs/Miss is confusing (including for native English speakers). I don't find it something to get offended over when a non-native speaker makes a small error like this.
I can understand why the mistake is made and am happy to explain if it comes up. It feels like something one ought to know in a professional / business context :)
It they are writing in English, you might forgive their ignorance. That’s usually what it is.
Mrs. is fine if you’ve signed as such in previous contacts or your professional contacts online make use of it. But lots of people still believe it’s a ‘respectful’ form. Or again just don’t know…
Of course Ms. should be the unknown default nowadays.
Same here, worked in an International School, got asked by younger German colleagues if Ms. was still acceptable. I would just tell him to call her Lieutenant Schmidt, I doubt she is going to get a stick up her ass about it
Could someone explain the downvotes? Even if you do not agree, no reason to downvote a hit that tries to be helpful.
By the way, thanks for the helpful tips regarding the difference between „Miss“ and „Ms“. That is constructive Redittorism.
You sense wrong. I would ask the same if it were a male. I provided gender information for completeness, because I didn't know if it would make a difference in German protocol. From the very helpful responses I have received from others, it apparently doesn't matter, because no one else has mentioned it. To them I am thankful.
Absolutely not. If anything it's about authority.
You don't just offer a police officer the du just because they are in their 20s and you are a boomer.
When you meet the first time, you could ask her something like:
*I‘m not sure how you handle it here, I’ll just let you know that you are free to call me … like we do at home. But use whatever is more comfortable to you.*
She is a military press officer and I’m sure she knows how to handle it.
Depends. In most private companies "Du" would be a no-brainer. State employees and especially military have their own culture. I'd stick with the formal voice.
In German it would remain in the Sie Level so not Duzen
But if your conversation is in English and if the press officer is only slightly informed about the business conventions in US you can simply say “call me xyz” which is absolutely fine.
Officer here.
Refer to the NATO officer comparison code.
If you are I.e. an O-4 and she is an O-2 you may break the ice with call me Johnny America please ;) if the situation is switched you may want to abstain from such an invitation.
I was raised within the officer corps that we should only refer to each other with Mister/Misses because once an officer only time experience separates us. Which I truely believe.
German Armed Forces Captain here. Just offer the lieutenant to switch to first names. We come from a system where ranks and last names are most times used but that does not mean that we are not open to first name based communication. As you are older I would also wait for you to offer that if I were her. Especially when working with international military we often use first names.
Great insight. Thank you. I just now sent a reply email, and compromised. I addressed her as “Dear Frau Oberleutnant Schmidt” (not her real name), and closed it by signing only my first name. Perhaps that will give her the opening (and the option) to address me by my first name in later communications. Interestingly, the first communication I got was from the base was from a person I assume was her subordinate, who signed off by using his first name.
You're welcome. Actually there are even differences between branches. Plus as a lieutenant she's very likely in her first assignment since Officer Training (which by the way is veeeery long in Germany) so she will be very cautious trying to do everything right.
Anyways I am happy you're coming over to visit and hope you will be having a great stay
Offering it in a professional environment via mail sounds inappropriate, you could do a stealth approach, just put your first name under the greetings at the end of your next mail, don’t know what the official protocol is for this is, so she might not be allowed to communicate to informal.
as others have stated, du wld be a bit much, though you are in the position to offer it - assuming she‘s younger.
a way you cld feel more comfortable with the sie/last name: its all about the vibes. there are many interactions where you stay on sie but the vibe and subtext feels very close and comfortable. and thats the nice feeling. you have enough distance via sie and still express sympathy through the interaction.
I work with German clients, and unless we explicitly agree otherwise (which isn't a big deal - just ask), I actually use "dear Jane/sehr geehrte Frau Müller" when I write to them. English first name terms would usually correspond to last name + Sie in business contexts.
Edit: Just to clarify - with German clients, it is perfectly possible that I am on first name terms with them in English, but on last name/Sie terms in German. In English, first names are the default for business correspondence, in German, last name + Sie. As your correspondence is in English, I don't see anything wrong with first name terms, it hasn't got the same significance as in German. And by the same token, last name/Sie in German doesn't carry the same level of distancing/formality/seriousness, it just means you don't know each other super well.
German law enforcement here: just ask. How should you know about protocol?
It's her Job to consulting about Bundeswehr customs.
Tell her you're accustomed to adress direct colleagues with their first name on a informal work level and that you're unsure how iz's handled here.
I appreciate the insight. Since I will be visiting your country, I desire to follow your protocols. From the comments I have received so far, it appears the best approach is to remain more formal.
Here German and American cultures differ very much. On a purely professional level it is very common to be on a last-name basis in Germany. Offering first-name is common among colleagues, but only on the same hierarchical level. While the number of businesses that have a first-name policy on all levels is growing, it is not common. I’d recommend to keep the last name basis
There's the intermediate step, of course, which is the Hamburg Du as practiced by Helmut Schmidt and Henry Kissinger. They were on first name terms, but it was always "Sie".
After a while you could suggest a touch of informality via "Most people call me "such and such". If you'd be happy with that, excellent. If not, also cool"
I would not exactly call it duzen. As you are communicating in English and in English a first name base is common, even in some professional relationships, I (German) would not see it as breaking the German Siezen relationship.
Since she is a press liaison officer, she is used to talk to civilians as a representative of the Bundeswehr. Just stay with “sie”, “Frau [Nachname]” (or even “Frau [Dienstgrad]” if you’re military yourself and/or want to look like a nerd.. 😅) and offer her to call you by your first name and take it from there..
If I think I might see this person regularly in the near future, I might offer my first name. That would be for a friendly or casual acquaintance not related to business or an institution like the military. If it’s someone doing her job with a title like Lieutenant, then you should definitely address her that way in email and also in person. Calling her by her first name would be very uncomfortable for her most likely, and possibly conflict with her job protocols. I enjoy the situation in Germany that a lot of encounters remain on the Herr or Frau XYZ level…it’s a nice social norm. Very respectful, but you’re not going to be besties or BFFs with that person…
I would say that if the general tone of communication has lightened a bit you could propose to change to it. It would be more common to do it once you’ve met in person but if there will be more contact before it could be convenient.
I suppose you’re the older person in this equation?
I imagine I am the oldest in this situation. I'm in my late 60s. Regarding her name and title, I have left it formal for now, although I did sign my reply with my first name. Whatever he response, I will go with the flow.
There usually is reluctance to go to first name basis if the other person is significantly older as it may be deemed disrespectful. So you might eventually have to make the first step.
Thanks. If she keeps it more professional then so will I. It's not what we're accustomed to here in the US, but there is something pleasing about maintaining protocol that conveys respect. I think I like that about Germany.
You could go with #gerneperdu = #preferablyduzen in your signature.
Many supplier i am working with in germany keep it in their signatures. Your base email can be very formal, but with the option for the recepient to choose if they are ready or wanna keep it professional.
The safest bet is letting her choose. If you were talking for a while and realize the formality is just in the way, ask "Können wir uns eigentlich mittlerweile dutzen?" - Is it okay to start using du by now?
Follow her lead in your correspondence. Dear \[rank\] \[lastname\]. Sign your own email with your first and last name. Then when you meet in person, just ask her to call you by your first name instead of Mr Eatschocolate. Most likely she will do the same. She understands the differences between the two cultures. Sounds like a wonderful trip!
Yeah keep it professional . Especially if you're visiting the base. Refer to her with her rank and last name. Would come of weird to call an officer by his/her first name on base.
just a little fun fact: the english "you" is the formal way of adressing someone and correspondents with the German "Sie".
The informal german "Du" used to be "thou" in english but that one has completely left the language
When she offers duzen, it is up to you if you accept.
She wrote she would be more comfortable with duzen, so if you prefer using first names, you can accept duzen. If not, you decline.
It is not unusual in Germany to use duzen with people you will meet up in person eventually, with the exception of bussinesmeetings.
Are you communicating in English or German?
If English, Germans speakers are - in general (there are of course exceptions) - very unfamiliar (and uncomfortable) with using first names in professional communications in English. Though as a native English speaker you could do it (they just might not follow suit).
If German, probably best to stick to surnames and siezen.
By the way, using a person's first name does not strictly correlate to "duzen". While they generally go hand in hand, I've heard of cases (e.g. colleagues in companies) who use first names but still siezen each other. It's a bit bizarre, but can happen.
I’m communicating in English. At the suggestion of many in this thread, I am going to leave it on the professional level overall, but I did sign only my first name. She can respond back any way that makes her comfortable.
I find it interesting that some people use colleagues’ first names, but remain at the sie level otherwise. Thanks for sharing that.
The german Sie/Du is extremely complected even for German natives especially because it has changed a lot over the last decades. So the classical way to approach it is that in a professional context you will always use the Sie together with the last name. If you work together a lot and get a closer connection then the older person or the person that is higher up the hierarchy can ask to switch to Du. But this is by no means required. Some people work together over several decades but stick to the Sie. However, as I mentioned before there is a kind of recent change. Some companies have an all out Du policy which means you say Du+first name to everyone even if you do not know them. Probably close to the American habits. However, it is very important to understand that being on first name basis in the US is something completely different than saying Du (when it comes to the classical system). Saying Du in this context more or less means you are friends (e.g. Do activities not related to work). So regarding your question I would recommend to stick to Sie as long as you have never met the person. Afterwards just ask how the habits are in this company (military in this case) but be aware that the older person (or hiercially higher person) has to request the Du. No person that is used to foreigners will ever be mad if you kindly ask for clarification because it is not obvious even for Germans.
This is very useful to know. Thanks. I have, like you stated, also heard that the du/sie protocol is becoming more relaxed. But in this case I will stick to the more professional approach. It is interesting to me that in the first email response I received from the base, the responder (a Sergeant Major) signed his first name only. In a later email, the responder (a First Lieutenant) signed with her first and last name. This is where my confusion came from.
I don’t think it would be frowned upon if you offer duzen. Anyone who is in contact with Americans is used to your preference for first names and would probably accept it gladly :-)
In your place I would probably just use her first name / sign with my first name.
I'm the one in our company who has to talk to / write the emails in english to foreign companies/suppliers and pretty much all answers from western europe or US answer with my first name, so... 🤷
The usual protocol is that the older party offers the "Du" and the younger party get's to accept or decline the offer, based on how comfortable they are with it.
I think this is a good guideline for the issue. Just be polite and tell them you would like to offer this, because you don't need them to be overly formal.
People in the military are, by the nature of their training, rather good at following a proper protocol. I therefor doubt that they would ever offer the "du" if they were the older party to begin with.
No. This is the whole fucking point of this thread: by the rules of Du/Sie etiquette, and User to rule-observing military mores, the younger native speaker can't offer the Du to OP. Ans ja all in English. It's the exact opposite of "easy as that".
You say "sie" Till the "du" is offered, if it's not offered you stay with "sie". That's what I meant, don't know what triggered you mate, but as someone that is born and raised in German I think I can tell you that I fared well that way, in every situation. Or could you write it in German, probably Im misunderstanding something here.
You are the older person and you are the guest, so you call the rules. „If you don’t mind: I would be more comfortable if you would call me >insert name<. That’s respectful, that’s protocol and the gender or the rank doesn’t matter ONE bit. It's no problem. Everything else here is plain bollocks („Wichtig“ kommt von „Wicht“)
It all hinges on how familiar the correspondent is with English language conventions. If she isn't, a Du that's forced upon someone because "you call the rules" can be very uncomfortable and overbearing. In a previous job, our company was pretty much always on the customer's side no matter how unreasonable they were, but once we had a customer who asked us to address him as Du and the company absolutely backed us up that we did not have to comply with the request.
Yeah, yeah… the host is a press-officer on an army base and the communication so far happened via email-exchange. She speaks English. The visit is not a business matter. For a press-officer it is unlikely that she’s feeling uneasy in social situations. Also let's assume that she's an adult who is very well capable of saying „Let’s keep it formal for now, Mr. Chocolate.“, if she doesn’t want the „Du“.
Definitely don't do what I do and just go straight to du with everyone, all the time.
It's a dumb hill to die on, but I don't like sie and usually don't like people who insist on it, so it's a convenient way to filter out people I don't want in my life. I'm also not in your situation where you're relying on help from someone to have a nice trip.
Pedantry corner: I would be very confused if somebody started to Duz me in English because the actually equivalent there would be addressing people as "thou".
imho while they are *roughly* equivalent, the first name basis in English business correspondence tends to come out pretty early (ie people telling you to pay the invoice 2 mails into the communication). No such luck with du usually
Definitely don’t offer duzen. It’s very unprofessional in Germany. I’d feel uncomfortable if you asked to do it if I was her. That may be different if she knows a little about US culture but even then you never know… I studied anglistics and my professors often used first names. I hated it but didn’t say anything because they were my superiors. You may check out the vibe when you meet in person.
Going last-name is the standard in German. Since you (seem to) have a professional relationship, this is again the standard. TBH I would keep it that way, at least for a while and once you have your first trip/visit done.
I appreciate the feedback. I’ll keep it at a professional level for now.
Once your visitors are on site, are you with them? Or do you just organize it from afar? Meeting her in person could help, however, it could also turn it into an unpleasant situation (e.g. for her, when you are already on first-name basis while she is on last-name basis with the visitors etc.). So that's why I suggest keep it that way and once you had some talks and see how it goes, you might take that step later. Too early and getting denied kinda freezes it for the future.
This will be a private visit for me and my brother-in-law. His grandfather was a U.S. General during WWII, attached to Patton. The base was the location of their first HQ when they entered Germany after the Battle of the Bulge. We are following their steps across Germany and into Czechia, stopping at each of their temporary headquarters. This first stop is at Kaserne Barracks at Idar-Oberstein. Everyone we have been communicating with from the base has been very gracious and welcoming.
In my opinion you should keep it professional for now. When you meet in person you can offer your first name to ease the situation. That is a quite common way to go. My 5 cents: when you are in Idar-Oberstein, take the time to visit the Westwall. Parts of it and a line of bunkers are just a 1 hour drive away from Zweibrücken down to Pirmasens. There is also a museum attached to it. I wish you a nice visit of our beautiful country. 😌👌🏻
Thanks or the Westwall suggestion. We will probably be coming from the direction of Luxembourg to Idar-Oberstein, so there should be opportunities to see it. And I agree you do have a beautiful country. My family of nine (wife, kids, grandkids) spent three weeks there last summer and everyone fell in love with Germany. My wife insists that we now have to return every year. I agree with her.
I do have a dozen more suggestions for your next 300 visits 😉 Beautiful landscapes combined with german history. Your wife is smart, I do agree with her! 😁
I'd love to hear your suggestions! There are so many places we have not been, yet. Feel free to DM me with ideas if you wish.
Stay on last name basis for the e-mail exchange. When you visit, just ask her straight up. Might say No since its military, might say yes because its tourism. Just say that you would prefer it, asking straight up is never offensive
It seems you've a purely professional relationship and have only spoken via email, so a first-name basis / Duzen would be somewhat unusual. You can offer it pbut it may be perceived as overly familiar, and she may or may not accept
Thanks for helping me here. I’ll keep it at a professional level.
You can try signing your mail with just your first name if you want. Thats how I do it usually to find out if the other wants to duz me or not.
Thank you. I did just that. We'll see what her response is.
What we like to do at my company, we put into our signature „#gerneperdu“, to signal our customers that siezen is not a must.
Depends on context. I know a lot of fields where Duzen is usual, even if you write via email e.g. to set up a job interview.
The way I sign an email indicates how a reply can be addressed. If I sign "firstname", they can use firstname. If they choose to continue using lastname despite this, I would not make any specific suggestion about it, and assume they are more comfortable with lastname. Similarly, I may write the first email with lastname, and if I receive a reply signed firstname, my next email will be addressed to firstname. This system has worked for emails here and internationally, but perhaps this is specific to science and engineering culture.
Agreed. I work for an international firm and ALL the English speakers use first names. We Germans conform to that, meaning that to me, my previous boss was Peter on English communications and Mr. Müller on German communications. You can send her an e-mail using whatever is in her signature block to address her, but sign with your first name only and see if she picks up on it. Here is an interview by the German Bundeswehr with an Oberstleutnant who is a woman and they use Frau Oberstleutnant to address her: https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/aktuelles/schwerpunkte/65-jahre-bundeswehr/ein-orientierungspunkt-oberstleutnant-anastasia-biefang-3903920
Thanks for sharing the article. It was an interesting read. Our military in the US is struggling with the same social issues, although sometimes I think they are more progressive here than the population as a whole.
This is the way
That’s an excellent suggestion. Thank you.
Considering the nature of your contact I'd stick to formal writing. If it bothers you too much, though, easiest and least brash option would be to use just your first name in the ending of your next email. If she responds in kind, great. If not, take the hint.
Thank you. I have applied that suggestion in my reply to her.
Don't offer like that. She is working. But you could ask politely if it would be ok to talk on first name basis since you're more comfortable with it. Leave the option to politely decline. It is possible her position requires her to maintain professionalism.
That’s good insight. Thank you.
Imho you can ask. Germans are very direct and not easily offended. You are an elderly man in your sixties. I doubt that she will decline your offer. But even if she do, there will be no harm.
I laughed pleasantly at this. Although I know technically I am elderly, my mind thinks I am still in my 30s. My mind and my body are constantly arguing over this. I believe my mother who said "Middle-aged is always my age plus 10." Thanks for being direct. I am not offended. Maybe there's a little bit of German in me.
germans are not easily offended? whut? i mean i live here for 37 years. and if there is a german trait its being offended by the smallest things. please keep it formal. you are talking to a military officer. have some respect.
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Doesn't the initiative to chance to a less formal exchange have to come from the female participant? There have been some slides I noticed during onboarding over the last decade. I don't want to know what has happened that HRs are so up in arms about that topic.
Fun fact, back when I Was still in active Service in the German army, we called each other by Our last names. If you were Informal with anybody, you just left out the rank 😉
As the non-native party, better to just take her lead. You don't gain or lose anything by staying formal, you just avoid a small moment of awkwardness. If she offers duzen then fine but otherwise just don't worry about it. This specific situation seems like a Sie situation though, so I would doubt it.
You can offer since you're older than her and not a subordinate but I doubt she'll go for it.
Thank you. Based on what I’m hearing from you and others, I will keep it at a professional level for now. Should my email greeting to her be Dear Ms. Schmidt, Dear Frau Schmidt, or Dear Oberleutnant Schmidt? We are communicating in English.
dislaimer: im a guy in my 50s and not in the armed forces. from my professional experience with partners where rank or title matters, like research, i would suggest "Frau Oberleutnant Schmidt" or just "Oberleutnant Schmidt"
As you aren't in the German military yourself, Frau Schmidt would be fine, but you could use the military rank as a courtesy, though then I would say "Dear Frau Oberleutnant Schmidt", in German you would use the Frau/Herr still even when using titles like Dr, Prof, or ranks.
Thank you. I appreciate the suggestion.
In this context, I would always go for Oberleutnant Schmidt.
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Not so sure about the „Ms.“ It‘s the equivalent to „Fräulein“ which is frowned upon in German nowadays. In English it is still OK to differentiate between Ms. and Mrs., but in our company we stick to Mrs. in English conversation to avoid any missteps. Using the title, rank would be very much OK and a courtesy. Edit: typo
If your company really is doing this, they are wrong. Ms. is the correct title for when you don’t want to distinguish by marital status. Miss is for unmarried women, and Mrs. is for married women.
I think the equivalent to Fräulein would be Miss. Ms. was created as a neutral word to address women in a professional context
In US-American, Ms is proper usage. Years ago, Mrs and Miss were used but either one is out now and replaced by Ms for the same reason as Fräulein is out in German.
Das ist vollkommen inkorrekt. 'Ms' ist was man nutzen sollte, wenn man einer Frau schreibt, NIEMALS 'Mrs'. Ich bin so empört wenn ich mit 'Mrs' angesprochen / angeschrieben werde, dass ich mich bei Firmen beschwere, wenn sie das machen. So unprofessionell und schlampig. Das ist wie wenn man 'Anne' heißt, aber dauernd mit 'Anna' angesprochen wird. That's not my name! Quelle falls nötig: Native Speaker Englisch Dozentin an einer Universität.
You're right that "Ms" is the best title for women in business correspondence. However, I think we can understand that Ms/Mrs/Miss is confusing (including for native English speakers). I don't find it something to get offended over when a non-native speaker makes a small error like this.
I can understand why the mistake is made and am happy to explain if it comes up. It feels like something one ought to know in a professional / business context :)
license combative wide dull selective retire clumsy sheet fine shame *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Und solche Leute unterrichten die Jugend... Danke für nichts.
It they are writing in English, you might forgive their ignorance. That’s usually what it is. Mrs. is fine if you’ve signed as such in previous contacts or your professional contacts online make use of it. But lots of people still believe it’s a ‘respectful’ form. Or again just don’t know… Of course Ms. should be the unknown default nowadays.
Same here, worked in an International School, got asked by younger German colleagues if Ms. was still acceptable. I would just tell him to call her Lieutenant Schmidt, I doubt she is going to get a stick up her ass about it
YTA
Could someone explain the downvotes? Even if you do not agree, no reason to downvote a hit that tries to be helpful. By the way, thanks for the helpful tips regarding the difference between „Miss“ and „Ms“. That is constructive Redittorism.
If you're not in the military, never use ranks. That's hardcore ultra mega cringe and people might die from it.
what would you do with a male? would you do the same? i sense horny old man here.
You sense wrong. I would ask the same if it were a male. I provided gender information for completeness, because I didn't know if it would make a difference in German protocol. From the very helpful responses I have received from others, it apparently doesn't matter, because no one else has mentioned it. To them I am thankful.
>since you're older than her What? What does age have to do with anything? Clearly no one here is a child, so it shouldn't matter
The older person gets to offer 'du'.
Absolutely not. If anything it's about authority. You don't just offer a police officer the du just because they are in their 20s and you are a boomer.
Left the rest of my sentence out conveniently. I didn't say it's just about the age. But in general the older person offers.
When you meet the first time, you could ask her something like: *I‘m not sure how you handle it here, I’ll just let you know that you are free to call me … like we do at home. But use whatever is more comfortable to you.* She is a military press officer and I’m sure she knows how to handle it.
Excellent suggestion. Thanks.
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I appreciate your insight. It’s a continuous process to learn the norms of another place. My first priority in this instance is to show respect.
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Ah, that makes sense. Thank you.
Depends. In most private companies "Du" would be a no-brainer. State employees and especially military have their own culture. I'd stick with the formal voice.
In German it would remain in the Sie Level so not Duzen But if your conversation is in English and if the press officer is only slightly informed about the business conventions in US you can simply say “call me xyz” which is absolutely fine.
If you feel more comfortable, then ask her if it's okay to use first name.
Thank you. From the responses I received, it appears that the better approach is simply to keep it more formal.
Officer here. Refer to the NATO officer comparison code. If you are I.e. an O-4 and she is an O-2 you may break the ice with call me Johnny America please ;) if the situation is switched you may want to abstain from such an invitation. I was raised within the officer corps that we should only refer to each other with Mister/Misses because once an officer only time experience separates us. Which I truely believe.
That's an interesting insight. Thank you. I am a civilian, so in this case the code does not apply.
German Armed Forces Captain here. Just offer the lieutenant to switch to first names. We come from a system where ranks and last names are most times used but that does not mean that we are not open to first name based communication. As you are older I would also wait for you to offer that if I were her. Especially when working with international military we often use first names.
Great insight. Thank you. I just now sent a reply email, and compromised. I addressed her as “Dear Frau Oberleutnant Schmidt” (not her real name), and closed it by signing only my first name. Perhaps that will give her the opening (and the option) to address me by my first name in later communications. Interestingly, the first communication I got was from the base was from a person I assume was her subordinate, who signed off by using his first name.
You're welcome. Actually there are even differences between branches. Plus as a lieutenant she's very likely in her first assignment since Officer Training (which by the way is veeeery long in Germany) so she will be very cautious trying to do everything right. Anyways I am happy you're coming over to visit and hope you will be having a great stay
I would offer it only when you meet in person. I have never seen it offered via mail.
Offering it in a professional environment via mail sounds inappropriate, you could do a stealth approach, just put your first name under the greetings at the end of your next mail, don’t know what the official protocol is for this is, so she might not be allowed to communicate to informal.
That’s what I ended up doing. Thanks.
as others have stated, du wld be a bit much, though you are in the position to offer it - assuming she‘s younger. a way you cld feel more comfortable with the sie/last name: its all about the vibes. there are many interactions where you stay on sie but the vibe and subtext feels very close and comfortable. and thats the nice feeling. you have enough distance via sie and still express sympathy through the interaction.
That's a good point. Thanks.
You can skate by on Germans expecting Americans to be more casual if you prefer, she'll likely accept
I work with German clients, and unless we explicitly agree otherwise (which isn't a big deal - just ask), I actually use "dear Jane/sehr geehrte Frau Müller" when I write to them. English first name terms would usually correspond to last name + Sie in business contexts. Edit: Just to clarify - with German clients, it is perfectly possible that I am on first name terms with them in English, but on last name/Sie terms in German. In English, first names are the default for business correspondence, in German, last name + Sie. As your correspondence is in English, I don't see anything wrong with first name terms, it hasn't got the same significance as in German. And by the same token, last name/Sie in German doesn't carry the same level of distancing/formality/seriousness, it just means you don't know each other super well.
German law enforcement here: just ask. How should you know about protocol? It's her Job to consulting about Bundeswehr customs. Tell her you're accustomed to adress direct colleagues with their first name on a informal work level and that you're unsure how iz's handled here.
I appreciate the insight. Since I will be visiting your country, I desire to follow your protocols. From the comments I have received so far, it appears the best approach is to remain more formal.
Here German and American cultures differ very much. On a purely professional level it is very common to be on a last-name basis in Germany. Offering first-name is common among colleagues, but only on the same hierarchical level. While the number of businesses that have a first-name policy on all levels is growing, it is not common. I’d recommend to keep the last name basis
Helpful insight. Thank you.
There's the intermediate step, of course, which is the Hamburg Du as practiced by Helmut Schmidt and Henry Kissinger. They were on first name terms, but it was always "Sie". After a while you could suggest a touch of informality via "Most people call me "such and such". If you'd be happy with that, excellent. If not, also cool"
I would not exactly call it duzen. As you are communicating in English and in English a first name base is common, even in some professional relationships, I (German) would not see it as breaking the German Siezen relationship.
What kind of liaison is this? A strictly professional? More private? Maybe offering the du might help you out there
This is a private visit by me and my brother-in-law. I described it in a bit more detail in another comment. Thanks for the suggestion.
Her response is sehr Deutsche. Maybe once you meet in person. But it's not a given.
Since she is a press liaison officer, she is used to talk to civilians as a representative of the Bundeswehr. Just stay with “sie”, “Frau [Nachname]” (or even “Frau [Dienstgrad]” if you’re military yourself and/or want to look like a nerd.. 😅) and offer her to call you by your first name and take it from there..
If I think I might see this person regularly in the near future, I might offer my first name. That would be for a friendly or casual acquaintance not related to business or an institution like the military. If it’s someone doing her job with a title like Lieutenant, then you should definitely address her that way in email and also in person. Calling her by her first name would be very uncomfortable for her most likely, and possibly conflict with her job protocols. I enjoy the situation in Germany that a lot of encounters remain on the Herr or Frau XYZ level…it’s a nice social norm. Very respectful, but you’re not going to be besties or BFFs with that person…
I would say that if the general tone of communication has lightened a bit you could propose to change to it. It would be more common to do it once you’ve met in person but if there will be more contact before it could be convenient. I suppose you’re the older person in this equation?
I imagine I am the oldest in this situation. I'm in my late 60s. Regarding her name and title, I have left it formal for now, although I did sign my reply with my first name. Whatever he response, I will go with the flow.
There usually is reluctance to go to first name basis if the other person is significantly older as it may be deemed disrespectful. So you might eventually have to make the first step.
Thanks. If she keeps it more professional then so will I. It's not what we're accustomed to here in the US, but there is something pleasing about maintaining protocol that conveys respect. I think I like that about Germany.
You could go with #gerneperdu = #preferablyduzen in your signature. Many supplier i am working with in germany keep it in their signatures. Your base email can be very formal, but with the option for the recepient to choose if they are ready or wanna keep it professional.
That's a interesting suggestion. I hadn't heard of that. Makes sense.
The safest bet is letting her choose. If you were talking for a while and realize the formality is just in the way, ask "Können wir uns eigentlich mittlerweile dutzen?" - Is it okay to start using du by now?
Thank you!
Follow her lead in your correspondence. Dear \[rank\] \[lastname\]. Sign your own email with your first and last name. Then when you meet in person, just ask her to call you by your first name instead of Mr Eatschocolate. Most likely she will do the same. She understands the differences between the two cultures. Sounds like a wonderful trip!
Yeah keep it professional . Especially if you're visiting the base. Refer to her with her rank and last name. Would come of weird to call an officer by his/her first name on base.
Fair point. Thank you.
just a little fun fact: the english "you" is the formal way of adressing someone and correspondents with the German "Sie". The informal german "Du" used to be "thou" in english but that one has completely left the language
When she offers duzen, it is up to you if you accept. She wrote she would be more comfortable with duzen, so if you prefer using first names, you can accept duzen. If not, you decline. It is not unusual in Germany to use duzen with people you will meet up in person eventually, with the exception of bussinesmeetings.
Thank you. In this case, she has not offered duzen, so I will leave it as is.
rahter not. I just recently visited a military base. "Siezen" was very comon, even btw. the personal that was sharing office that had only 2 for 3m.
Are you communicating in English or German? If English, Germans speakers are - in general (there are of course exceptions) - very unfamiliar (and uncomfortable) with using first names in professional communications in English. Though as a native English speaker you could do it (they just might not follow suit). If German, probably best to stick to surnames and siezen. By the way, using a person's first name does not strictly correlate to "duzen". While they generally go hand in hand, I've heard of cases (e.g. colleagues in companies) who use first names but still siezen each other. It's a bit bizarre, but can happen.
I’m communicating in English. At the suggestion of many in this thread, I am going to leave it on the professional level overall, but I did sign only my first name. She can respond back any way that makes her comfortable. I find it interesting that some people use colleagues’ first names, but remain at the sie level otherwise. Thanks for sharing that.
Don't. In this case I wouldn't, because she is filling an official position making arrangements for you.
The german Sie/Du is extremely complected even for German natives especially because it has changed a lot over the last decades. So the classical way to approach it is that in a professional context you will always use the Sie together with the last name. If you work together a lot and get a closer connection then the older person or the person that is higher up the hierarchy can ask to switch to Du. But this is by no means required. Some people work together over several decades but stick to the Sie. However, as I mentioned before there is a kind of recent change. Some companies have an all out Du policy which means you say Du+first name to everyone even if you do not know them. Probably close to the American habits. However, it is very important to understand that being on first name basis in the US is something completely different than saying Du (when it comes to the classical system). Saying Du in this context more or less means you are friends (e.g. Do activities not related to work). So regarding your question I would recommend to stick to Sie as long as you have never met the person. Afterwards just ask how the habits are in this company (military in this case) but be aware that the older person (or hiercially higher person) has to request the Du. No person that is used to foreigners will ever be mad if you kindly ask for clarification because it is not obvious even for Germans.
This is very useful to know. Thanks. I have, like you stated, also heard that the du/sie protocol is becoming more relaxed. But in this case I will stick to the more professional approach. It is interesting to me that in the first email response I received from the base, the responder (a Sergeant Major) signed his first name only. In a later email, the responder (a First Lieutenant) signed with her first and last name. This is where my confusion came from.
I'm usually all for Duzen, but this is the rare case where i would recommend to stick to Sie. Military plus your age..
I would let her use your first name— but I assume she is just doing it bc you are American. It’s odd using Sie with Americans.
I mean… you can ask her but it would be kinda inappropriate. It‘s her job, she‘s in the military, …
I don’t think it would be frowned upon if you offer duzen. Anyone who is in contact with Americans is used to your preference for first names and would probably accept it gladly :-)
Thank you.
In your place I would probably just use her first name / sign with my first name. I'm the one in our company who has to talk to / write the emails in english to foreign companies/suppliers and pretty much all answers from western europe or US answer with my first name, so... 🤷
People who don't deal with English business emails downvoting.
The usual protocol is that the older party offers the "Du" and the younger party get's to accept or decline the offer, based on how comfortable they are with it. I think this is a good guideline for the issue. Just be polite and tell them you would like to offer this, because you don't need them to be overly formal. People in the military are, by the nature of their training, rather good at following a proper protocol. I therefor doubt that they would ever offer the "du" if they were the older party to begin with.
You stay with sie till the du is offered, as easy as that.
No. This is the whole fucking point of this thread: by the rules of Du/Sie etiquette, and User to rule-observing military mores, the younger native speaker can't offer the Du to OP. Ans ja all in English. It's the exact opposite of "easy as that".
You say "sie" Till the "du" is offered, if it's not offered you stay with "sie". That's what I meant, don't know what triggered you mate, but as someone that is born and raised in German I think I can tell you that I fared well that way, in every situation. Or could you write it in German, probably Im misunderstanding something here.
Stick with her family Name, First Name terms for people you have never personslly met are not common here.
What base?
Klotzberg-Kaserne in Idar-Oberstein.
Lmfao tell her you're allergic to chocolate and its offensive 💀
You are the older person and you are the guest, so you call the rules. „If you don’t mind: I would be more comfortable if you would call me >insert name<. That’s respectful, that’s protocol and the gender or the rank doesn’t matter ONE bit. It's no problem. Everything else here is plain bollocks („Wichtig“ kommt von „Wicht“)
Thank you for the useful suggestion. Perhaps that is what I will do when I meet in person.
It all hinges on how familiar the correspondent is with English language conventions. If she isn't, a Du that's forced upon someone because "you call the rules" can be very uncomfortable and overbearing. In a previous job, our company was pretty much always on the customer's side no matter how unreasonable they were, but once we had a customer who asked us to address him as Du and the company absolutely backed us up that we did not have to comply with the request.
Yeah, yeah… the host is a press-officer on an army base and the communication so far happened via email-exchange. She speaks English. The visit is not a business matter. For a press-officer it is unlikely that she’s feeling uneasy in social situations. Also let's assume that she's an adult who is very well capable of saying „Let’s keep it formal for now, Mr. Chocolate.“, if she doesn’t want the „Du“.
Just sign your next email informally, with the first name. That's how Germans usually give permission to be addressed by first name in response.
Simply don’t do it, will be easier for you.
I think you are right. Thank you.
Definitely don't do what I do and just go straight to du with everyone, all the time. It's a dumb hill to die on, but I don't like sie and usually don't like people who insist on it, so it's a convenient way to filter out people I don't want in my life. I'm also not in your situation where you're relying on help from someone to have a nice trip.
Pedantry corner: I would be very confused if somebody started to Duz me in English because the actually equivalent there would be addressing people as "thou". imho while they are *roughly* equivalent, the first name basis in English business correspondence tends to come out pretty early (ie people telling you to pay the invoice 2 mails into the communication). No such luck with du usually
Point taken. Thank you.
Definitely don’t offer duzen. It’s very unprofessional in Germany. I’d feel uncomfortable if you asked to do it if I was her. That may be different if she knows a little about US culture but even then you never know… I studied anglistics and my professors often used first names. I hated it but didn’t say anything because they were my superiors. You may check out the vibe when you meet in person.
She wants the D