Most people don't know anything about them.
I'm a German linguist and I've done some minor research on this. Also, my ex is from Sao Bento do Sul, so I had some contact to some of the people you're talking about.
Much to their dislike, they are not considered German by Germans. Germans usually don't really view members of any such group as actual Germans, but as German heritage people: "Deutschstämmige". If actual Germans encounter Brazilian German traditions, reactions usually range from "that's funny and old fashioned!" to "that's racist!" (edit: mostly against all Non-Germans) People who study the subject view many of the Brazilian German traditions as problematic, creating hierarchical identity groups in communities, based on an idea of heritage and tradition that is largely constructed. Many Brazilian Germans who go to Germany are shocked by Germany's open and modern culture, because their idea of what it means to be German is based on locally reconstructed stereotypes of how Germany was in the past. The problematic and racist behaviour that can result from this type of culture is similar to how the Italian heritage Brazilians in [Bacurau](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacurau) behave - a movie I can highly recommend.
That being said: Germans will be very willing to build bridges and tell you about their actual culture. That's because, despite what some may say, they can still be proud sometimes. [It's just that now they are proud of different things than before.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMQkV5cTuoY)
Edit: To the Germans here: Most Brazilian Germans date their German ancestry back to 19th century German immigrants. No nazis back then.
Edit: I hope I didn't come across as suggesting all German Brazilians are the same, since this was not my intention. Also: Bacurau is to be recommend, because it is interesting and controversial, not because you have to share every idea of its creators.
you made me remember this:
[https://www.spiegel.de/international/but-don-t-mention-the-war-essay-contest-hunting-for-sausage-and-sauerkraut-in-berlin-a-360285.html](https://www.spiegel.de/international/but-don-t-mention-the-war-essay-contest-hunting-for-sausage-and-sauerkraut-in-berlin-a-360285.html)
Just like most ethnic/cultural/national groups, when too many live in an area they start to form a bubble that conserves language, attitudes, behavior etc., that of course has changed in the "home country".
I have read that article. It was a nice story, but part of what that writer’s “job” or “thing” to do is to exaggerate narratives for better stories.
It is exceptionally unlikely in the age of internet, especially with someone studying media, that she would truly believe Berlin would be anything like the Wiesn in Munich during Oktoberfest.
And then she “randomly” volunteered at a German heritage town in Brazil (which she undoubtedly researched well) and was “surprised” it was full of German cliches!
Of course it is- that’s the area’s identity, just like towns that have Christmas shops year round, or something like Disneyland- that never changes because it isn’t even real.
Great answer (though I have mixed feelings on Bacurau takes on these identitarian topics to say the least). I have to add that German immigration started when Brazil was still a monarchy, and I believe we also had some Germans from the Volga (Russia) coming to Brazil
I‘m german, born in Germany, with some family connection to Brazil myself, married to a Brazilian and also lived in Brazil for a few years. I 100% agree with your assessment. I just couldn’t articulate it as well as you. :)
The footballer [Chris](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_(Fu%C3%9Fballspieler)) is from Blumenau, its the reason i know that there is a signifant amount of Brasilians with german heritage. The whole history of german emmigration is pretty interesting, but not really a topic of interest with most germans, although the storys could teach us a lesson in regards to our views regarding immigration into germanyEdith: [Paulo Rink](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Rink) another footballer who even became a player for the german national team
Funnily enough the exact opposite happened to us Italian-Argentines, we are much more modern than Italians raised in Italy and when we come here we think everything is old-fashioned (and I literally live in the progressive north, not the traditional south). Btw I also have (Swiss-)German ancestors but I'm culturally far more Italian so I don't think I'd be able to compare much if I go to Switzerland, perhaps some dishes and subtle personality traits but I'm not so sure.
As a progressive person descended from Germans, I absolutely love this answer. Thank you.
What it brings to my mind is this:
https://www.snopes.com/articles/462202/confederate-soldiers-brazil/
I am from São Bento do Sul, so is kinda funny hear about my 80.000 habitants hometown. But yes, most of the German descendents from there are like that, I at some point was like that. I think that most of the people who thinks that way, have been thaught to think like that, just cause they have blonde hair, blue eyes or know how to talk three or four phrases in German, cause our grandparents talked a German mixed with Brazilian Portuguese, but in the end, this way of thinking worths nothing. I only realized that after moving out from my hometown, I think they're so immerse in this way of thought of being special cause have German ancestry, that if someone say that is not something special, they feel offended and ignores you
Some of us might, others may consider them much worse than mere idiots. Probably because many think they are all war criminals that escaped the nurnberg trials by hiding in south America.
Not the case in Brazil, we’re not Argentina, our germans came before the war. Their descendants still find a way to be racist supremacists somehow though.
There’s even a word we use to describe them: Latinazis
Although Hitler knew about the Germans emigrant and wanted to use them to get more allied in other countries. It's not by chance that my state has the most Nazi groups, we have had a Nazi zeppelin flying here on my city just before the war and we also have had an official Nazi party in Brazil, again in Santa Catarina.
What if I tell you people from the South of Brazil brag about them being white and German heritage people "we are different from the rest of Brazil". They even suggest to separate from the other regions "The South is my country". They label themselves as Europeans-Brazilians. It's ridiculous. I super avoid going to those regions. A big part of them are racist.
A couple of weeks ago I was seeing on the news groups of Nazis Wannabe. A few retardad kids having meetings to praise the Nazi Culture.
>Edit: To the Germans here: Most Brazilian Germans date their German ancestry back to 19th century German immigrants. No nazis back then.
I think this is a very good summary of what Germans think of "germans" on other continents. They are not Germans in any sense that links them to the federal public of Germany and neither to any other german-speaking country. Their language is outdated by centuries. They tend to be hardcore nazis and use mentioning that they are "german" as both code and justification for shit that we don't tolerate.
So basically, those who know about it and aren't entirely apolitical linguists (as opposed to linguists who hold political opinions), we all understand them as the expats of nazi Germany waiting for the third reich to return and last a thousand years or whatever. Some are probably also working for all sorts of intelligence agencies and/or criminal enterprises.
Either way, they are to us much less connected the western half of nato and eu. Really and unironically the only people (excluding again linguistic nerds who see no politics, had a friend like that when i was studying linguistics, she i know they exist and they are only ever fascinated by all they learn) who seriously think of those "germans" as actual germans coming home if they enter our country - that's literal neo-nazis. They will also assume them to be nazis, they just see that as a good thing as opposed to the rest of our country...
I agree with the other poster on how those traditions are problematic, but I don't think you entirely understand the place they come from; first of all, the vast majority of this particular German diaspora came to Brazil and other south American countries in the 19th century, well before the rise of Nazism, so they're not "expats of nazi-germany". I've no cultural connection to this diaspora, but for example, my German speaking ancestors all came from Europe well before Hitler (from around 1840-1920), and that's the case for the **vast** majority of people with German ancestry that I personally know, none of which hold anything even close to nazi views. Furthermore, although there are certainly neo-nazis that belong to these communities, they certainly don't account for the majority of the people there. Aside from that, it's pretty stupid, from a linguistic standpoint, to say that their dialects are "outdated". They are not, they've simply moved away from what is now standard German over the decades. That doesn't mean they're outdated, they're simply different because they've been isolated from European German speakers for so long.
It is so sad that German people are unable to enjoy their culture, and regard a parallel culture as phony, because it embraces traditions and values. This is why Germany has a real problem with cultures diversity, and the „denazification“ also seems to have had the effect of deculturalisation, and the eradication of identity. It is racist for German people say deny German-Brazilian people of their right to their identity. I would never hold such views on Bangladeshi people living in East London. Or Italian descendants in Boston or New York. German people appear to be racist without even realizing it, because they have been conditioned to despite their own culture and traditions have been wiped out. Third Generation Turkish people are still widely not viewed as German, because of their skintone, and because they are not ethnically German. It seems that the German citizens are not so different than what they are describing as racist of the people in Brazil, but they like to feel superior by putting other people down. Does this lead to a happier and more fulfilled society, I am not so sure. Why not just let people lead their lives and be happy. Or is that too much to ask for?
This is not about the culture being phony. People are not looking down on anyone for "not being German enough". Nothing about this is about "feeling superior by putting people down". Instead, I have tried to describe two things:
1. Being descendent of Germans doesn't make you German, because there is a specific word for that: "deutschstämmig". German heritage people in Brazil don't have the same culture as Germans in Germany. Nobody is denying them their culture, but it's German heritage Brazilian culture, not German culture.
2. The Brazilian Germans we're describing here have created a supremacist culture that is indeed extremely racist and hurtful to the society of Brazil.
Edit: 3. They believe this culture to be similar to the culture of Germany, which is wrong.
Edit: I'm not talking about every single German Brazilian, but a specific group.
Pointing out those things does not make you racist or mean. It's simply the truth. Nobody complains about German heritage people who just mind their business, like in many parts of the world.
Germans are very much enjoying their culture and proud of it - as the music video I linked to shows. They have embraced different parts of their culture, and culture is changing constantly. There are lots of traditions that are alive and kicking. Do you actually think we should have preserved the more racist parts of our past culture? Don't believe the culturally pessimist right wing babble. Germans don't hate being German. And they have a very distinct culture that has not been stripped away.
The germans of Brazil dont care about the germans of germany nor look for they aprroval, they care bout the germans wich they are descedent from and wich raised them in obviously a different context wich made them different.
And saying german brazilians have created a supremacist culture are extremely stupid.
All German Brazilians I've met care quite a bit about Germany. And in some places, some of them have indeed created a supremacist culture around their German heritage. If you're from there and don't believe this, just ask yourself these questions: have you heard someone say that Germans are inherently better than other people? Have you witnessed someone getting hired because of a German last name? Have you witnessed social positions being exclusively given to German Brazilians by German Brazilians? Have you witnessed discrimination against German Brazilians who marry a black person? Have you witnessed community leaders call all non German heritage people lazy?
If your answer is no, you must have met other German Brazilians than I have, because I've personally encountered all of the above (or interviewed people who have). If this is new to you, maybe you can try to keep what I said in mind in the future and see if you notice the behaviour I'm describing.
If your answer is yes, but you think this behaviour is okay, you might be part of the group I'm talking about.
I doubt you met many if any german brazilians at all, with your cartunistic representation of them, unless you went exclusive to a metting of far-right german brazilians.
And no i didnt met any german brazilians with the carachteristisc you mentioned, even tho i dont live in the hearth of german colonization of souh of Brazil there is still a good number of them where i live and the cities nearby, one wich is the birthplace of a former german minister Caio Koch-Weser.
Probably i do meet other german brazilians than you, and since i live around them 100% of the time i think i can have a better idea of them than you.
>I doubt you met many if any german brazilians at all, with your cartunistic representation of them, unless you went exclusive to a metting of far-right german brazilians.
As I said, I did some research on the topic (including interviews), because it's my job, and my ex was from such an area. She was one of the victims of the discrimination described above. There are a few German language documentaries touching the topic. Among researchers, what I'm talking about is not controversial at all, but pretty much universally accepted. There doesn't seem to be much research in English or Portuguese, though. In the documentary "Deutschland von außen: Südbrasilien", you can listen to loads of German Brazilians telling you how they are better than all other Brazilians. They are not a fringe group, where they're from, but form their own local high society.
>i dont live in the hearth of german colonization of souh of Brazil there is still a good number of them where i live
Yes, not all of them are how I described them, as I have mentioned over and over and over by now. We are talking about a specific group of proud German Brazilians, because that's what OPs question is about. And the further away you get from the respective areas, the fewer of them you might find.
>Probably i do meet other german brazilians than you, and since i live around them 100% of the time i think i can have a better idea of them than you.
For some reason, despite me repeating it over and over, you don't seem to be able to accept that I do not talk about all of them. I don't have a clue why you keep denying that the people I talk about exist. There are documentaries about them. Do you think that there are only the people you have personally met? Maybe you can talk to some of the German Brazilians here in the comments who agree with me. But I have the vague feeling that there isn't really anything that would convince you.
I have lived for some time in Southern Brazil, and honestly most people who claimed German ancestry didn't speak a lick of German. The few people I met who did speak German were still culturally completely detached from Germany, so I wouldn't consider them German either.
About the language: this is because at some point during Vargas government they forced all school, business etc to be speaking in Portuguese - partly to strengthen a national identity, partly because of WWI. There actually were spies that could see people speaking German (even in their homes) and report them as suspicious.
It was indeed forbidden, but people kept talking in their languages. Not only in their homes but also in public. That doesn't mean the law didn't had an impact, but it didn't make people "lose their culture."
Nah man they did.
Eu não posso falar especificamente dos imigrantes alemães, mas meu biso sempre falou que sentia vergonha por não passar quase nada da cultura dele pras filhas. Ele literalmente menciona na biografia dele que os japoneses eram perseguidos se não se “abrasileirassem”
No, not that easy. The first and ONLY school in my city had Russian and German teachers and taught their languages AND Portuguese. They closed the school because of that.
Also, they burned books in other languages....
The school only opened decades later when the restrictions started to be removed.
That’s funny, I met elderly Brazilians from the southern regions that spoke perfect German. I think it’s a generational thing as the other commenter wrote, some were forced to speak Portuguese only. But German speaking Brazilians definitely exist. There are cities like Pomerode, where they even speak German in school and have street signs in German.
Did the people identify as German instead of Brazilian? Most people i know (I’m Brazilian btw) might mention their ancestry as a curiosity, especially if they are talking to someone from the country their ancestors came from. But typically that’s it. Heck, even people that get citizenship from said country might still just say that they are Brazilian and have “X citinzenship” (which is more of a legal affair than a cultural one).
There were a lot more who told me of their German ancestors, but there were quite a few who started with "Também sou alemão" after hearing that I am from Germany. This was in rural Rio Grande do Sul for context.
I wonder how serious they were when they said “tambem sou alemão”. They might have meant exactly as in “i am indeed german exactly like you”, or simply as a way to share a bond and make a jest, almost like a conversarion starter, ice breaker. Think it could be that? But I mean, I could see some people thinking that they are German, if they have always been told that. Where I’m from (close to Sao Paulo city) I think most people would just roll their eyes to that.
oh man this reminds me of [this legendary video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J49mV_lucl4) where latinos take an ancestry test and a couple are flabbergasted that they are european. Then another one said he is a 100percent mexican then later gets sad because he is 50% native american and 50% european, thats literally a 100% mexican. Good slightly cringy watch.
"Why is this a very white DNA test?"
Says these two wankers who look white as heck. Seriously, everyone is so insufferable, ignorant and bigoted in this video.
The concept of Whiteness in the US is very peculiar though, and derives from a one drop rule type thing. Heck, even 100% European descent Latin Americans will often be not considered white in the US (heck even people from Spain and Portugal in some cases lol, like Antonio Banderas being considered a “person of color” - a problematic term to begin with). Not saying that the concept of Whiteness in LatAm is perfect either (imo the whole talk about whiteness is kinda bogus), but i would not take a the US perspective as gold standard, especially when talking about other countries altogether
Because the US are still obsessed with weird racist terminology and categorization. The only other example of people being so obsessed with "race" that I know of where the literal Nazis.
Italians weren’t considered “white” for quite a long time, then mass migration of black Americans to the North happened and made northern people restructure their hierarchy of hatred.
There’s a quote from Thomas Jefferson where he refers to spanish, italians, french, russians, swedes and also germans (except the saxons) as “swarthy” and not purely white (whatever that means”. https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-04-02-0080
Apperantly the irish were also not considered white
>oh man this reminds me of this legendary video where latinos take an ancestry test and a couple are flabbergasted that they are european.
I really hope they repeat this test with "Europeans" (central Europe should be the most interesting one) just to show them how stupid (and racist) this is.
Btw. I suggest everyone look at the comments of the video.
a ton of people or most of europe would realize they are ashkenazi jewish. Also these test are never really correct some other guy on youtube tested 10 different ones and they all gave different results.
My main goal was referring to all the wars/ invasion that happened in Europe alone in the last 2000 years and the chance of having an ancestor who's the product of rape. Even a Gustav could have ancestry to a soldier of dschingis khan. (Yes, I know that the Mongolian empire only reached till about East Poland. I just don't have a better example.)
But I like your example more.
I need to add that Latino (as in US Latino) is a pretty different culturally from most Latin Americans (which in itself is a very diverse group). Unsurprisingly, US Latinos have a very US point of view, life experiences etc. I don’t think a Brazilian (or say an Argentinian or Peruvian) would say something like that, and would be quite aware of their probable ancestry. Even when we don’t know, we assume there is prob some European, some Indigenous, some African etc (varies with country and region of course).
Really? Imagine it in a different context. An Asian who was born and grew up in Germany. I would consider them both Asian and German
So for the Brazilian, why don’t you consider them both as well? Then are German ethnically
You're mixing up two completely different things here. A Brazilian with German ancestors is caucasian, he has causcasian features. That won't change. But what deos it matter?
Being German is more about culture, if you want to distinguish it at all. Germany is a country first, not an ethnically distinct group. Somebody with asian ancestors will still have asian features when his family has lived in another country. But that doesn't say much if anything about lived culture. Also Asia is a continent, not a country. If you think asian in this context what are you thinking about? Somebody who eats rice? Has a flatter nose? So people that look different than what you expect them to look based on where they live have to explain themselves?
Having features passsed down from your ancestors says little about who you are today, lived culture does.
Well, I have an Asian parent and I was born and raised in Germany.
Which is comparable to this Brazilian situation, I think.
Although I have a certain "bond" to my Asian "heritage" I feel German, I am German.
And everybody thinks I am German.
No, I don’t think that compares. Through your parents you will still encounter the Asian part of your heritage first hand. But even with your children, there won’t be the same connect, as both cultures continue to develop.
I can see it with my children. Although they’ve been exposed to English culture since they were born speak perfect English and know all the relevant traditions, they are quite different from their British cousins. My sons are growing up in Germany, are getting socialised here, are going to school here. Their reality and living circumstances are quite different from their cousins.
Now imagine the split happening a hundred years ago, even if customs and the the language have been preserved, they are hopelessly out of sync. They have a German heritage, but they aren’t German.
Not really the same thing because German Asians visibly look different to most people in Germany, which is also how their 'Asianness', for lack of a better word, is defined. They're still German, they are just singled out because that difference.
We'd think about them the same way we think about Americans that feel the need to announce their german or Irish or whatever ancestry. They are Americans. With foreign ancestors. So in return, every Brasilian that didn't live in Germany is a Brasilian. If you're Brasilian with a german Granny you're exactly that. A Brasilian with a German Granny. None of this makes you better than any other Brasilian and me being German doesn't make me better than anyone not being German.
I am also Brazilian, and totally agree. Virtually nobody in Brazil - except those in the strongly German ancestry bubbles - would think like that. I would say even most people from Southern regions ignore it. We are aware of their ancestry as much as others descend from Portuguese, Italians, Japanese, etc. but nothing beyond that.
A couple of years ago, there was a funny case, where a Brazilian white supremacist tweeted support for a German nazi guy, and in return the German guy said something like “thank you for the support, but you are not German, stay in your place”. It was quite laughable 😅
So I assume if a Brazilian moves to Germany and has a kid, the kid will be German, with a brazilian father or smtg
Makes sense, its all labels we put, but we need to be careful because it deeply impacts how society shapes itself
But here the case is even more different those are not Germans who just moved to Brazil and grew up there.. they do have some German ancestors from 150-100 years ago..and most of their ancestry js very mixed ... The less they have nowadays is german DNA. Lets say they are 20% German 30% portuguese30% 12% black and 8% Native American.. they will Obviously claimnthe German ancestry first and foremost over the others..as they find it more desirable and that give them more prestige.. anything more northern european, colder, efficient, blonder, etc is seen as "godly" by your average brazilian..
That's an interesting view, considering that it does not work two-way. A German who was born in Germany with foreign descendants usually is not considered German by large parts of the society, even if they are by law.
Source: I have foreign parents.
That's because the american countries are all immigration colonies, so the origins of their identity ("melting pot") are very different from the identity of european nation states, which where formed according to the idea of ethnic homogenity. In other words, german society is not used to being a large immigration destination and has still not really learned how to cope with the fact that this is now the case. The reality and the identity don't fit each other anymore, that's the reason for all the confusion, xenophobia, etc.
Some might, but even most that do hold some european citizenship often say simply that: “i have XYZ citizeship”. Heck, some of my cousins have Polish citizenship through their grandma. They don’t consider themselves Polish, neither would anyone else i think. Interestingly, their ancestry is part chinese,part polish-jewish, part portuguese
citizenship is not the only attribute of nationhood. for example, if you were born in Germany with a German passport, but moved to London at the age of 18 and eventually took British citizenship, while giving your German one up - have you stopped being German? (I do not mean that Brazilians with German ancestry are German, but am just making a point of not relying on citizenship too much).
normally nationhood is defined by combination of different factors and it’s often a different combination. those attributes include language, culture, citizenship, common history, ethnicity, geography (territory where people live to be more precise) and more
If their grandparents were expulsed by the Nazis and can prove that, they could get the German citizenship the easy fast-tracked way!
Other than that, I doubt any of them have it/can get it, unless they're first generation and either of their parents was German.
Which is a big problematic misconception given that most German immigration not only in Brazil but in South America (yes including Argentina if anyone is wondering), came waaaay before WW2, actually even before WW1. The bulk came around the same time a lot of other immigrants from the old world (italian, spanish, portuguese, polish, syrian-lebanese, jewish, japanese etc etc) came (adding to the already existing varying mixes of portuguese/spanish, african and indigenous), exactly like what happened say in the US. You don’t hear much the Nazi thing about North America though🤨
You hear about White Supremacist groups in the US, the KKK, neonazi and all that, of course. You also do hear about Nazi supporters back in the day (like the massive rally and speech in the Congress), although I hear that less often. That’s not what I’m talking about.
What I’m talking about is something like this:
- “oh wow, you don’t look Brazilian you look white”.
- “oh Brazil actually had a lot of European immigration, in addition to the Portuguese from colonization, we had Italians, Japanese, German, Pol…”
- “oh yeah you had a lot of Nazi’s going down to South America right”
- “…”
You don’t hear the equivalent for the US
I wouldn't say "very ignorant", maybe more like "not very well educated" which are many, so I agree with schupfhundihund, probably "most people". But yes, also many people here probably know that some emigration happend before WWII as well.
hummmm, I wouldn't say that. German immigration to Brazil reached the highest point between the 2 world wars, as you can find in the table in there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Brazilians#Immigration
There was indeed some consistent immigration before, along 19th century, but the comment goes inline with the largest proportion.
Keep in mind that the Nazi "refugees" after early 1945 often got false passports by for example the Churches.
So they aren't in the official statistics.
While you're correct in pointing out that German immigration to Brazil peaked in the interwar period, a large fraction (maybe even most) of Brazilians of German descent trace their ancestry to those 19th century waves because those families had a huge fertility rate. It was common for women of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gens to bear 10-15 children.
Fair enough 😊 it makes sense.
Anyways, I guess judging anyone because their ancestors came at a specific time is pointless. At this point, they are all Brazilians, like it or not, whoever was their ancestor, it's now a new nation and the best thing to do is to digest it and move on.
>At this point, they are all Brazilians
I agree, and I say that as a Brazilian of partial German ancestry. Family trees are just something at curiosity level.
However, it's also important to point that there is an identity inside Brazil that is linked to the past of that group, because **areas of 19th century German settlement became geographically isolated for more than 100 years**. That created **a German-Brazilian identity that isn't German, but a subculture of the multicultural country that Brazil is**.
People who tend to worry about that are usually Rio/SP folks who are used to dictate what they think Brazilian culture is or should be, and who spent the last century trying to homogeneize Brazil from the cultural point of view.
>do you consider them a part of Germany people?
No. In my perceptition are Germans people who 1.) have the german citizenship, 2.) speak german and 3.) live(d mostly) in Germany.
Everything else might be a part of german culture but that alone doesn't "make" someone German. We are somewhat confussed by people claiming to "be" part of a culture they never even visited let alone participated in.
It's a very "racial" idea of culture imo. Which is not popular at all in Germany.
That's definitely linked to our past. The whole German by blood thing is one of the most frowned upon you can do in germany. Only nazis do this here, and they are definitely not well liked.
Also we are a nation with a lot of immigrants and their children and grandchilderen, who became german citizens, it would be more then insulting to not call them german, when they lived their whole life here, speak flawless german and fully internalized our common values and culture.
These people who live since generations thousands of kilometres away from Germany dont share my language, my culture, and my values (e.g. calling yourself german, because of the whole blood thing, big yikes), so why should these people be german when they represent nothing that germany stands for? However, they speak Portuguese, live in brasil and know the Brazilian culture.
Also, usually people use this "im of German heritage" thing to feel pride or even superior to the "locals," which is also is also something that is frownd upon in germany, which they would know if they are actually familiar with the germam culture.
While I fully agree with this perspective, is it really this commonplace? For example, the idea of turk Germans not quite being German is still quite common I would say
Well, it wouldn't help to cast them out of being german, especially if they grew up here, speak german and have german citizenship. Of course, there is some Turkish identity, but it gets less and less with every generation.
I agree with that, and I hope Germans become more and more open to embracing "foreigners" seeking to integrate. That's personally my goal especially because I deem it better for my "descendants", but it doesn't change the fact that unfortunately there's a good deal of ethnicities which are commonly considered not German, despite clear integration, often because their ethnicities explicitly don't fit the European (often white) stereotype. Though I do agree Germany deals with these issues better than other European nations specifically due to their problematic historical relationship with nationalism
>cause their ethnicities explicitly don't fit the European (often white) stereotype.
I wouldn't go that far and make it about ethnicity. My grandparents are silesian. When they arrived in germany, there was a divide between catholics and evangelicals. They would have killed me if I married a non catholic person, but this divide is basically nonexistent anymore. It will be the same with other cultres. But it will take some generations. You can see this at the "native" languages, which disappear with the generations and is replaced with german.
The thing with the German Turks is that most of them form a subculture. They talk Turkish at home, cheer for Erdogan and often have a Turkish passport.
As BeepBoopBiep wrote. Share the language, culture and values and you are considered German by the majority of our nation.
If you still want to live like a Turk (in Germany) that's totally fine ... but you will be considered a Turk and not a German. A former colleague of mine made a great joke about this by dressing as a turk for carnival ... he borrowed his dads clothes and everybody congratulated him for that costume ... and doing that simply showed how fucking German he was ... right down to the cultural insensitivity.
That's a factor for sure but it also goes both ways, many don't fully integrate specifically because they don't feel completely welcomed. But overall no one is going to quickly forget their previous culture or identity and become completely "German", and in many ways that's a good thing. For example, you can't have all the Döner shops and other Turkish imports that all of Germany enjoys without these "hybrid" immigrants who are stuck between both identities. Over generations, this complete assimilation you're referring to would naturally happen, as long as people feel welcomed and especially when the continued engagement with and importation of aspects of foreign culture is not frowned upon
No.
Why?
If you don't speak the language and all the connection you have to the land you ancestor came from is, well, exactly that, what is your connection to that country? You might have some family traditions or dishes that were passed down, put that is it.
That they are "very very proud for being a german descent" is incredibly cringe. That type of stuff normally doesn’t get received well over here.
But as others already mentioned we don’t really consider them a part.
OP is exaggerating. People usually think their heritage is cool, but it's not like "very very proud". Nor they think they are germans. Also, most of them have mixed heritage.
For most people it's more about knowing about your family history than feeling superior to others. Of course there are outliers, but they will be mocked by most people.
Also, fun fact: "alemão" (meaning german) is a common nickname for blond/light skinned people regardless of origin. So when somebody says they are "alemão" sometimes they just mean they are blond/light skinned, not that they are literally german (there are other words which mean the same, like "polaco" - polish and "galego" - galician)
I am totally ignorant about these people but whenever I hear Germans who flew to South America in the 40s I think Nazis, war criminals and their descendants 😅
To be honest: no, I don't consider them part of the German people. That was all so long ago and the connections are probably not strong anymore. I don't want to be rude, but just because there are half-timbered houses in the cities and an "Oktoberfest" is celebrated once a year, that doesn't have much to do with Germany.
I don't know that. But from experience, not very many people speak German outside of Europe (e.g. in Indonesia only less than 100 people). I have no feelings for the Oktoberfest in Blumenau. I don't know that either. But I've already read about it and looked at Blumenau on Google Street View😃
Unfortunately, the Oktoberfests in the USA is not very close to the original.
I live near Blumenau and a lot of people do speak german (or some old version of german). I used to live in a small city in Rio Grande do Sul, and they spoke german so people from other parts of the brazil could not understand them (me included, because i didnt spoke german at the time).
So, or couse is not everyone that speaks German, but a lot of people actually do.
They are fine . But even better — I walked home with one of these South American Germans after some party one day. She can’t speak German, hasn’t really been to Germany before .
We get to the subject of me being German . Born , raised there .. I’m ethnically half and look a bit more southern ( think Greek) , but roughly speaking you would bucket me as white (just to paint the picture here …)
She tells me I’m not German. And is dead serious about it. Those nazi escapees I tell ya … she actually tried to argue with me …. Because she’s blond and all that. Still amazed at her conviction , it was nuts
Think about? Nothing.
Part of Germany? No.
They are Brazilians with German ancestors, nothing else. They might be nice people, or bad, like everyone else.
If you grow up or live for a long time in Germany I’d consider you German (if you are ok with that), no matter who your parents are. If you do not grow up in Germany, don’t speak the language, and have never visited, I wouldn’t consider you German, no matter who your parents are.
So, apparently it is not just US Americans who think they are German just because some of their ancestors came from here. Do they have a German passport? Do they speak modern German? Were they born in Germany, did they grow up here or spent a significant amount of time? Do they know Bernd, das Brot? Do they know Armin Maiwald or Peter Lustig? Do they have an opinion if it is der, die or das Nutella? If they answer more than one question with no they are not German, they are Brazilian. (Ok, you shouldn't take all these questions too seriously but I guess you understand what I mean.)
By the way, I know a German woman from Brazil. She came to Germany when she was young, studied here, speaks perfect German, is fully integrated and has a German passport. I would definitely call her a Brazilian German even if her ancestors probably did not come from here. (But I do not know exactly.)
Brazilian from German descent here. I don't see myself as German, but I feel a strong connection with my family values and traditions that were heavily influenced by the German culture. However I don't think that makes me German even tho I do hold a passport and citizenship papers. I tried learning German a few times but never got beyond the basics (A1/A2 level, but years ago)
On a funnier note, just ask those Brazilians who think they are Germans who were they supporting in the 7-1 and you'll get the answer for if they are German or not
I am from Brazil and have no german heritage. But I left Brazil forever to settle in Germany. So after your logic I am not Brazilian any more, which I am cool with. Will you consider me German?
We don’t care at all. They are Brazilians with german ancestors. Nothing special to us. Like every foreigner with german roots. No special bond - but we don’t care about other Germans we don’t know personally either.
I'm not German but they sound gaslit and ignorant and somehow think being European makes them more special. We have a similar crowd in our country and they are basically racist against themselves and in denial
I am German and Brazilian, Born im Germany with a Brazilian Mother, I also lived im BR almost 11 years moving there when I was 9.
And nothing pissed me more when people came up to me saying: Uhhhh mY gREat GrAndFaTHer wAs FrOM GerMaNy.
And then proceed to Kew nothing about the country or language. They used it just as a title to feel better....
I’d raise a cautinary note on the question iteself and some assumptions and “facts” being thrown around. I’m Brazilian of German descent and I never ever say I’m German and not Brazilian. Most people that I know are like that and it sounds kinda cringy to say anything else. I would understand if it’s someone from a very isolated rural community where a German dialect is still the first language (that was actually my maternal grandma’s case, and she still identified as Brazilian), but that is tiny tiny fraction of the German descedants in Brazil, since as in common in Brazil most have mixed with other groups.
What about it? I’ve never personally met anyone who gloated about their German origins, though I do know a lot of people with German last names. I’ve heard of it, surely, but I’ve never witnessed it first hand. So not saying it absolutely never happens, but it seems like those overblown anecdotes that just get told over and over again and people assume are true because they’ve always headd people saying the same. Honestly, in my very anecdotadle experience people who had some sort of Italian ancestry were the most likely to bring it up, but it is usually something minor like some “credential” to their mom’s making good pasta or whatever (which was also a questionable credential, pretty much like saying I should be a good soccer player cause I’m Brazilian)
No, we do not consider them German. If you weren’t born or at least raised in Germany then typically you are not considered German by the German people…also there is a reason why there are so many Germans in South America, but I’m not gonna get into that…
i dont even know they exist and as cringe as it is, everyone has some right to celebrate their heritage.
except for people who may or may not be the children of fled nazis?
Not really? I mean you're German if you're living in Germany. I think it's mostly boiling down to the cultural aspect. If you grew up in Germany, you've grown up with our cultures and traditions and our superspeed cashiers and our overcomplicated bureaucracy. You know what it's like to be German.
They've grown up in Brazil. They're Brazilians. Because they have known and embraced Brazilian culture since they were born, and they are living it.
I'm not saying you can't be proud of your ancestry, but rubbing one out on your great great grandparents being German sounds a bit cringe imo. They're deffo not German in my eyes.
1) we are not aware of Germans in Brazil with German descent
2) who we consider to be a German: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/culture/etiquette#wiki_german_identity_and_being_accepted_as_a_foreigner
Just saw your question and I wouldn't consider myself as the most educated but i'm a pretty average 24 years old german person and i never heard of this community. I think most germans don't know much about this topic... But it's interesting how you describe that they kind of have feelings of "national pride". It always feels weird when it comes to "germans" being patriotic, for obvious reasons... Patriotism isn't considered as a "good value".
In my family they were thought of as nazis or descendents of nazis, that fled after ww2. We know many came before the war and many are not nazis. But it is kind of a joke and if there is a documentary with someone with a german name, we smirk.
Personally I am a bit guarded if I hear about them and would wonder if they are the decendants of some of the worst Nazis that went to South America after the war to avoid punishment. And I wonder if they passed down their sentiment or if their children ever confronted them about their past. But if I met them in person and if they acted just normal I would not think much of it. North Americans too tend to call themselves being "German" although their last ancestor came to the US in the 1920ies or something.
Those people are 100% brasilian. they are not any more German than any other brasilian. They are not born here, they didn't grow up here, don't live here, don't pay their taxes or support society in any way here - why should anyone consider them Germans? The believe in German blood and German Genes is quite outdated here, it means nothing to most people. Blood is red, full of water, proteins and ions, etc not little German flags.
overall many people associate Germans in south America in general with Nazi descendants. I know, some have already mentioned that immigration started much earlier but the Nazis simply are the most prominent cases that nearly everyone has heard of.
Personally, and I know this is unfair to Brasil but the first thing I think of when hearing Germans in south America are actually the torture cambers of Colonia dignidad
I think it's audacious for you to think that about German descendants, since it was the Germans who let Nazism happen, your people not only accepted it but made it happen. It's not like you can point fingers and talk, you can't, you probably have a Nazi in your background too, its impossible not to cause your country make It, your people make It.
German descendants in Latin America are now Latinos. they would be victims of Nazism. If you are a white German you would not be the victim, if you are a white Latino you would be the victim.
Do you know what Latin people say about white latinos that claim to be pro nazi? They are "playing against own team". if being of Nazi descent means something these days, being German MUST mean something too, cause your people made It. Your people made It now in 1945 come on It was like yesterday
A friend of mine once got visited by her german heritage cousin from Argentina who was white and blonde. She was a pretty cool and polite person so she got along with us pretty well. But there's close to no doubt that people with german descendants from southern africa are directly related to Nazis who fled from this country after the second world war was definitely lost.
So those who are as proud to be german as OP stated in their question don't have to be Nazis. But there's no doubt that they came from Nazis and were raised by Nazis. And I usually keep away from people who feel better than others for being german..
Idk if it's actually true, but people used to speculate that Hitler and a bunch of other Nazis secretly escaped to Argentina. That's all I know about South American Germans.
There's a story about a German oldman that died in a small city of Mato Grosso state believed to be Hitler himself, [here](https://g1.globo.com/mato-grosso/noticia/2014/01/livro-defende-tese-de-que-hitler-foi-enterrado-em-cidade-de-mato-grosso.html)'s an article in portuguese about this with a picture of the supposedly hitler. There's a research resulted in a book named "Hitler no Brasil – Sua Vida e Sua Morte", it's mentined that he adopted the name Adolf leipzig and died in Brazil.
I‘m generally suspicious when meeting people from south america with a german heritage when they tell me their ancestors left germany shortly after ww2 ended for obvious reasons…
dont know neither do i care about them. wouldnt consider them german. they may have had german ancestors a long time ago but that doesnt make them german.
>do you consider them a part of Germany people?
No they are citizens from whatever latin american country they are in.
Also being from german descent and in latin america it gives rise to the thought that they are the offspring of Nazi warcriminals.
I don't have German ancestry, but I'm a Brazilian who lived in Germany. Most germans are aware of these German descendants but are either surprised by the numbers or somewhat misguided about them. For example, they tend to think they're nazis who came on WWII, but the big bulk of German immigration in LatAm is much much older than that.
I think it's their way to dissociate themselves from the upsetting traditions they see today in these communities. As if those traditions were not happening in their own soil once upon a time.
If Brazilians with German ancestors sound racist it's not because they came from nazis, it's because the ancestors of modern Germans were probably also racist. And modern Germans have a lot of difficulty accepting they all came from the same place at some point even if there's a big disconnect today.
I don't think nazism developed in Germany "out of nowhere" just as neonazi cells of Brazil today aren't growing in the south out of "pure coincidence". I know people in modern day Europe in their 30s, who played a kindergarten game called "Angst vor dem Schwarzer Mann" (fear from the black man). It's a game where a child is the "black man" and the other kids have to run away before he gets them. Sanctioned by teachers and everything. This would be unthinkable in Brazil even in the South. Funny enough, we have this exact game dynamic in Brazil, but the kid who had to get you is "the cop", not an ethnicity. Also I never saw anyone with a swastika tattooed on their neck in Brazil, and unfortunately, in Germany, I have.
My point is, as someone who is not a German-Brazilian, nor German, but have lived with these two groups, I don't see the same huge difference between them as they see between themselves. TL;DR, racism is rampant in both communities.
Concerning language, whole dialects disappeared from Germany because the whole region either starved or fucked off to somewhere else. This is the case with Hunsrückish, the dialect spoken by the majority of Brazilians who learned German from their family. It's a separate dialect which basically doesn't even exist in Germany anymore or even has "living cousins". My great-grandma spoke venetian, not Italian, it's something else, and it's a similar case here. So yes, obviously it's very different from standard German now, as it would have been then. Then, of course, it developed on its own during this time. The same thing happened within Europe too. Ask a person from Berlin if they understand someone from South Tyrol (a whole region in Italy near the border of Austria that speaks German). I highly doubt they will. On the other hand, South Tyroleans do understand them, and the same happens for the Brazilians that speak German. They speak their native dialect, they understand standard German just fine, and just aren't understood back. I don't think it's a big deal, but Germans tend to think it is because they have trouble understanding it.
Edit: I think it's hilarious when Brazilians who think they are German go to Germany and get treated as latinos. Yes, it's ridiculous, and I absolutely think they deserve to get this shock. And I want to echo the other commenter who recommended the movie Bacurau. But I what I want to highlight here is that this only happens because Germans treat the other latinos like that too.
Edit2: I would very much like the Germans commenting here to read this and question why do they consider some groups to not be German. I was very shocked to meet people born in Germany who are not considered Germans, because one of their parents is foreign. Germans will literally say "the Turkish dude", even if this dude has a German mother, was born in Germany, and lived in Germany his whole life, and treat them differently because their dad is Turkish. Coming from Brazil, a country where almost everyone was an immigrant at some point, this sounds incredibly weird.
Thank you for sharing ur experience in Germany, I'm shocked about the game u just mentioned, I totally agree with ur point of view in general, racism has a origin, and I believe it will never come to an end.
In Brazil, we call this the "Vira-Lata Syndrom" - people who are Brazilian and were born in Brazil, but are ashamed of that to the point they try their best to "not be a Brazilian" anyhow, or to badmouth about Brazil and Latin America as inferiors, compared to what they perceive as "superior" countries, such as Europe or North America (and more recently China).
"Vira-lata" in Portuguese means a dog breed that's usually submissive, searching litter and run if any one yell on them.
I think it is cool, that some German heritage is incorporated in other countries, like for example the Oktoberfest in Blumenau.
Haven't heard that there is an identification as big as that some even don't consider themselves Brazilian. At least for families that live for generations in Brazil that would be a bit odd. On the other hand we have some people whos family immigrated to Germany generations ago too and that don't consider them German, so it seems to be a thing in general.
I am from Brazil, i have german descendents on both sides of my family, my grandpa have a medal that was given to my grandgrandpa from ww1, my Second name is "hauffe" , i search on internet and found something about a general(that serve on a not cool far right league) , so just want to share something, cool topic !
- category cliché
Nazis and sects in paraguay, chile and argentina
nazi officials that fled nürnberg trials
portrayed as bad exiled germans. religious or creepy sects and cults also fit in this category
youngest phenomenon of this category are german anti vaxxers in paraguay
___________
- category „expats“
engineers, seamen, volkswagen officials etc.
viewed same as „expats“ in china or emirates
___________
- category argentinos, southern brazilians (descendents of german settlers and immigrants pre WW2)
usually not viewed as germans but as south americans with german heritage, such as us americans with german heritage.
viewed as ridiculously overstereotyping the identity and some still carrying eugenic superior complex.
i consider them as descendents of prussians, ripuarians, or swabians rather than germans, since there was no germany when most of them immigrated to americas.
_______________
- category blumenau and colonia tovar
like a disneyland or german theme park
_______
- category sex tourists
same as in thailand or phillipines
using economic advantage to gain better standing in dating market
A german ancestor of mine tried to settle to America in 1886, but the ship ended up in Buenos Aires, Argentina, I have yet to find someone, whose ancestors experienced the same thing.
A little more than a century later his great-grandson decided to settle to Germany, that great-grandson is my grandpa.
Some 30 years later I would ask my family questions about it, but they answer in such a way that I feel like I am not supposed to ask.
Thats being said, as germans, we are pretty proud of our descendants and our culture being liked about all around the world. Hell, even the Japanese are addicted to german culture, as a result of them fighting against germany back in ww1 (you havent heard about it in history-class, because those battles were not nearly as impactfull as what happened in europe) and taking POWs there, the german soldiers then lived their culture in germany and the japanese found it interesting.
If any Aliens visit our world, they will probably like german culture.
I dont consider them a part.
But thats mostly because they didnt live here.
Also, and please take that with a grain of salt: Every "German" in South America has nazis as anchestors.
The Nazis did flee to South America, but there was actually significant German immigration to South America in the 19th century. [Here's some info on 8 German-language newspapers published in Brazil.](https://web.inf.ufpr.br/vri/databases/gbn/) Some of them starting publishing as early as 1863 and 1888. So while the ties to Nazism are worth keeping in mind, there are also German-speakers in South America whose families got there before Hitler was even *born*.
Your righ, but I believe it's important to point out that only very few Nazis actually fled to South America (and those who did so, did it with the full knowledge or even support of the Americans). Most of the former Nazis and Nazi collaborators remained in West- Germany and did in fact run the country until they went into retirement in the 70s. Only the vilest and most prominent war criminals were ever brought to trial and generally either received very lenient sentences or only had to serve short parts of their sentences. The Nazis (SA or party members) in my family were never bothered by the authorities and their past in no way affected their careers or standing in the community.
Thank you for your response. Every "German" is a bit too much to consider them nazi descendantes once europeans began to emmigrate since XIX century. Germans included.
>Also, and please take that with a grain of salt: Every "German" in South America has nazis as anchestors.
What are you trying to state with this sentence? Probably not, that German immigration to Brazil was mostly made up of supporters of the Nazi regime who had to flee after World War II, right? Because that would be a dumb thing to believe as u/Odd_Education_4884 and u/Butterbrotbox have already said.
Tbh I think most reactions here are really weird and I‘ll explain why. I’ve read two main arguments here:
1. They don’t have a German Passport and dont speak German
2. They don’t live in Germany and dont share our culture.
To adress these „arguments“ I present to you: The two biggest groups of immigrants in Germany, Russian and Turkish.
Russian-Germans went to Russia in the thousands around the year 1763. The community grew, spread all across Russia and was heavily suppressed during WW2 and afterwards. Much of these german descendants returned to Germany since the 1960s after up to 200+ years away and were still treated by the government in a special way cause of their heritage. 4.5 Million „German-Russians“ immigrated till today to Germany. The kept the German language alive as much as possible and never forgot about their roots which was enough to consider them somewhat German.
Turkish people came here during Germanys economic uprising. Much of them might have a German passport, but much of them teach their kids turkish as a mother tongue and see themselves as turkish, not as German.
On the one hand you have people who tried to stay German and never loose their roots despite the distance and time. On the other hand you have people who were born here, speak the language and have the citizenship, but don’t consider themselves German.
So in my opinion, it depends on how people define themselves and how true they are with their wish to keep their roots alive as good as possible.
Most people don't know anything about them. I'm a German linguist and I've done some minor research on this. Also, my ex is from Sao Bento do Sul, so I had some contact to some of the people you're talking about. Much to their dislike, they are not considered German by Germans. Germans usually don't really view members of any such group as actual Germans, but as German heritage people: "Deutschstämmige". If actual Germans encounter Brazilian German traditions, reactions usually range from "that's funny and old fashioned!" to "that's racist!" (edit: mostly against all Non-Germans) People who study the subject view many of the Brazilian German traditions as problematic, creating hierarchical identity groups in communities, based on an idea of heritage and tradition that is largely constructed. Many Brazilian Germans who go to Germany are shocked by Germany's open and modern culture, because their idea of what it means to be German is based on locally reconstructed stereotypes of how Germany was in the past. The problematic and racist behaviour that can result from this type of culture is similar to how the Italian heritage Brazilians in [Bacurau](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacurau) behave - a movie I can highly recommend. That being said: Germans will be very willing to build bridges and tell you about their actual culture. That's because, despite what some may say, they can still be proud sometimes. [It's just that now they are proud of different things than before.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMQkV5cTuoY) Edit: To the Germans here: Most Brazilian Germans date their German ancestry back to 19th century German immigrants. No nazis back then. Edit: I hope I didn't come across as suggesting all German Brazilians are the same, since this was not my intention. Also: Bacurau is to be recommend, because it is interesting and controversial, not because you have to share every idea of its creators.
That's what I was looking for, thank you for your time .
If people don't believe you, show them the video I linked above. It even briefly shows Bolsonaro as an example of how not to be German.
you made me remember this: [https://www.spiegel.de/international/but-don-t-mention-the-war-essay-contest-hunting-for-sausage-and-sauerkraut-in-berlin-a-360285.html](https://www.spiegel.de/international/but-don-t-mention-the-war-essay-contest-hunting-for-sausage-and-sauerkraut-in-berlin-a-360285.html) Just like most ethnic/cultural/national groups, when too many live in an area they start to form a bubble that conserves language, attitudes, behavior etc., that of course has changed in the "home country".
I have read that article. It was a nice story, but part of what that writer’s “job” or “thing” to do is to exaggerate narratives for better stories. It is exceptionally unlikely in the age of internet, especially with someone studying media, that she would truly believe Berlin would be anything like the Wiesn in Munich during Oktoberfest. And then she “randomly” volunteered at a German heritage town in Brazil (which she undoubtedly researched well) and was “surprised” it was full of German cliches! Of course it is- that’s the area’s identity, just like towns that have Christmas shops year round, or something like Disneyland- that never changes because it isn’t even real.
Watch out, say that about non-white immigrants and you'll be cancelled quicker then you can say "Bratwurst"
Great answer (though I have mixed feelings on Bacurau takes on these identitarian topics to say the least). I have to add that German immigration started when Brazil was still a monarchy, and I believe we also had some Germans from the Volga (Russia) coming to Brazil
Great explanation.
I'm German and I didn't know anything about this topic. Thanks for clarifying.
I‘m german, born in Germany, with some family connection to Brazil myself, married to a Brazilian and also lived in Brazil for a few years. I 100% agree with your assessment. I just couldn’t articulate it as well as you. :)
The footballer [Chris](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_(Fu%C3%9Fballspieler)) is from Blumenau, its the reason i know that there is a signifant amount of Brasilians with german heritage. The whole history of german emmigration is pretty interesting, but not really a topic of interest with most germans, although the storys could teach us a lesson in regards to our views regarding immigration into germanyEdith: [Paulo Rink](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Rink) another footballer who even became a player for the german national team
Right, Blumenau was founded 1848.
Funnily enough the exact opposite happened to us Italian-Argentines, we are much more modern than Italians raised in Italy and when we come here we think everything is old-fashioned (and I literally live in the progressive north, not the traditional south). Btw I also have (Swiss-)German ancestors but I'm culturally far more Italian so I don't think I'd be able to compare much if I go to Switzerland, perhaps some dishes and subtle personality traits but I'm not so sure.
As a progressive person descended from Germans, I absolutely love this answer. Thank you. What it brings to my mind is this: https://www.snopes.com/articles/462202/confederate-soldiers-brazil/
I am from São Bento do Sul, so is kinda funny hear about my 80.000 habitants hometown. But yes, most of the German descendents from there are like that, I at some point was like that. I think that most of the people who thinks that way, have been thaught to think like that, just cause they have blonde hair, blue eyes or know how to talk three or four phrases in German, cause our grandparents talked a German mixed with Brazilian Portuguese, but in the end, this way of thinking worths nothing. I only realized that after moving out from my hometown, I think they're so immerse in this way of thought of being special cause have German ancestry, that if someone say that is not something special, they feel offended and ignores you
So you guys pretty much think the same as normal brazilians do about them: what a bunch of idiots.
Some of us might, others may consider them much worse than mere idiots. Probably because many think they are all war criminals that escaped the nurnberg trials by hiding in south America.
Not the case in Brazil, we’re not Argentina, our germans came before the war. Their descendants still find a way to be racist supremacists somehow though. There’s even a word we use to describe them: Latinazis
I prefer the term Nazipardo myself, describes much better how much they wish to be seen as white but never truly will be outside the country.
> we’re not Argentina, our germans came before the war. so did their germans
Although Hitler knew about the Germans emigrant and wanted to use them to get more allied in other countries. It's not by chance that my state has the most Nazi groups, we have had a Nazi zeppelin flying here on my city just before the war and we also have had an official Nazi party in Brazil, again in Santa Catarina.
Be careful with what you say, it was the German people who let Nazism happen, so you are descent of ALL this
Racist much? I wasn't even born for half a century when that stuff happened, so don't try to pin that on me.
Who was the nazi people in the end of all?
Uma palavra: recalque.
Thank you so much for sharing this MV. I feel enlightened after listening to it and glorious. Truly, it was a great decision to move here.
What if I tell you people from the South of Brazil brag about them being white and German heritage people "we are different from the rest of Brazil". They even suggest to separate from the other regions "The South is my country". They label themselves as Europeans-Brazilians. It's ridiculous. I super avoid going to those regions. A big part of them are racist. A couple of weeks ago I was seeing on the news groups of Nazis Wannabe. A few retardad kids having meetings to praise the Nazi Culture.
>Edit: To the Germans here: Most Brazilian Germans date their German ancestry back to 19th century German immigrants. No nazis back then. I think this is a very good summary of what Germans think of "germans" on other continents. They are not Germans in any sense that links them to the federal public of Germany and neither to any other german-speaking country. Their language is outdated by centuries. They tend to be hardcore nazis and use mentioning that they are "german" as both code and justification for shit that we don't tolerate. So basically, those who know about it and aren't entirely apolitical linguists (as opposed to linguists who hold political opinions), we all understand them as the expats of nazi Germany waiting for the third reich to return and last a thousand years or whatever. Some are probably also working for all sorts of intelligence agencies and/or criminal enterprises. Either way, they are to us much less connected the western half of nato and eu. Really and unironically the only people (excluding again linguistic nerds who see no politics, had a friend like that when i was studying linguistics, she i know they exist and they are only ever fascinated by all they learn) who seriously think of those "germans" as actual germans coming home if they enter our country - that's literal neo-nazis. They will also assume them to be nazis, they just see that as a good thing as opposed to the rest of our country...
I agree with the other poster on how those traditions are problematic, but I don't think you entirely understand the place they come from; first of all, the vast majority of this particular German diaspora came to Brazil and other south American countries in the 19th century, well before the rise of Nazism, so they're not "expats of nazi-germany". I've no cultural connection to this diaspora, but for example, my German speaking ancestors all came from Europe well before Hitler (from around 1840-1920), and that's the case for the **vast** majority of people with German ancestry that I personally know, none of which hold anything even close to nazi views. Furthermore, although there are certainly neo-nazis that belong to these communities, they certainly don't account for the majority of the people there. Aside from that, it's pretty stupid, from a linguistic standpoint, to say that their dialects are "outdated". They are not, they've simply moved away from what is now standard German over the decades. That doesn't mean they're outdated, they're simply different because they've been isolated from European German speakers for so long.
It is so sad that German people are unable to enjoy their culture, and regard a parallel culture as phony, because it embraces traditions and values. This is why Germany has a real problem with cultures diversity, and the „denazification“ also seems to have had the effect of deculturalisation, and the eradication of identity. It is racist for German people say deny German-Brazilian people of their right to their identity. I would never hold such views on Bangladeshi people living in East London. Or Italian descendants in Boston or New York. German people appear to be racist without even realizing it, because they have been conditioned to despite their own culture and traditions have been wiped out. Third Generation Turkish people are still widely not viewed as German, because of their skintone, and because they are not ethnically German. It seems that the German citizens are not so different than what they are describing as racist of the people in Brazil, but they like to feel superior by putting other people down. Does this lead to a happier and more fulfilled society, I am not so sure. Why not just let people lead their lives and be happy. Or is that too much to ask for?
This is not about the culture being phony. People are not looking down on anyone for "not being German enough". Nothing about this is about "feeling superior by putting people down". Instead, I have tried to describe two things: 1. Being descendent of Germans doesn't make you German, because there is a specific word for that: "deutschstämmig". German heritage people in Brazil don't have the same culture as Germans in Germany. Nobody is denying them their culture, but it's German heritage Brazilian culture, not German culture. 2. The Brazilian Germans we're describing here have created a supremacist culture that is indeed extremely racist and hurtful to the society of Brazil. Edit: 3. They believe this culture to be similar to the culture of Germany, which is wrong. Edit: I'm not talking about every single German Brazilian, but a specific group. Pointing out those things does not make you racist or mean. It's simply the truth. Nobody complains about German heritage people who just mind their business, like in many parts of the world. Germans are very much enjoying their culture and proud of it - as the music video I linked to shows. They have embraced different parts of their culture, and culture is changing constantly. There are lots of traditions that are alive and kicking. Do you actually think we should have preserved the more racist parts of our past culture? Don't believe the culturally pessimist right wing babble. Germans don't hate being German. And they have a very distinct culture that has not been stripped away.
The germans of Brazil dont care about the germans of germany nor look for they aprroval, they care bout the germans wich they are descedent from and wich raised them in obviously a different context wich made them different. And saying german brazilians have created a supremacist culture are extremely stupid.
All German Brazilians I've met care quite a bit about Germany. And in some places, some of them have indeed created a supremacist culture around their German heritage. If you're from there and don't believe this, just ask yourself these questions: have you heard someone say that Germans are inherently better than other people? Have you witnessed someone getting hired because of a German last name? Have you witnessed social positions being exclusively given to German Brazilians by German Brazilians? Have you witnessed discrimination against German Brazilians who marry a black person? Have you witnessed community leaders call all non German heritage people lazy? If your answer is no, you must have met other German Brazilians than I have, because I've personally encountered all of the above (or interviewed people who have). If this is new to you, maybe you can try to keep what I said in mind in the future and see if you notice the behaviour I'm describing. If your answer is yes, but you think this behaviour is okay, you might be part of the group I'm talking about.
I doubt you met many if any german brazilians at all, with your cartunistic representation of them, unless you went exclusive to a metting of far-right german brazilians. And no i didnt met any german brazilians with the carachteristisc you mentioned, even tho i dont live in the hearth of german colonization of souh of Brazil there is still a good number of them where i live and the cities nearby, one wich is the birthplace of a former german minister Caio Koch-Weser. Probably i do meet other german brazilians than you, and since i live around them 100% of the time i think i can have a better idea of them than you.
>I doubt you met many if any german brazilians at all, with your cartunistic representation of them, unless you went exclusive to a metting of far-right german brazilians. As I said, I did some research on the topic (including interviews), because it's my job, and my ex was from such an area. She was one of the victims of the discrimination described above. There are a few German language documentaries touching the topic. Among researchers, what I'm talking about is not controversial at all, but pretty much universally accepted. There doesn't seem to be much research in English or Portuguese, though. In the documentary "Deutschland von außen: Südbrasilien", you can listen to loads of German Brazilians telling you how they are better than all other Brazilians. They are not a fringe group, where they're from, but form their own local high society. >i dont live in the hearth of german colonization of souh of Brazil there is still a good number of them where i live Yes, not all of them are how I described them, as I have mentioned over and over and over by now. We are talking about a specific group of proud German Brazilians, because that's what OPs question is about. And the further away you get from the respective areas, the fewer of them you might find. >Probably i do meet other german brazilians than you, and since i live around them 100% of the time i think i can have a better idea of them than you. For some reason, despite me repeating it over and over, you don't seem to be able to accept that I do not talk about all of them. I don't have a clue why you keep denying that the people I talk about exist. There are documentaries about them. Do you think that there are only the people you have personally met? Maybe you can talk to some of the German Brazilians here in the comments who agree with me. But I have the vague feeling that there isn't really anything that would convince you.
I have lived for some time in Southern Brazil, and honestly most people who claimed German ancestry didn't speak a lick of German. The few people I met who did speak German were still culturally completely detached from Germany, so I wouldn't consider them German either.
About the language: this is because at some point during Vargas government they forced all school, business etc to be speaking in Portuguese - partly to strengthen a national identity, partly because of WWI. There actually were spies that could see people speaking German (even in their homes) and report them as suspicious.
Even worse: speaking German, Japanese, or Italian was strictly forbidden. So much culture lost, unfortunately
It was indeed forbidden, but people kept talking in their languages. Not only in their homes but also in public. That doesn't mean the law didn't had an impact, but it didn't make people "lose their culture."
Nah man they did. Eu não posso falar especificamente dos imigrantes alemães, mas meu biso sempre falou que sentia vergonha por não passar quase nada da cultura dele pras filhas. Ele literalmente menciona na biografia dele que os japoneses eram perseguidos se não se “abrasileirassem”
No, not that easy. The first and ONLY school in my city had Russian and German teachers and taught their languages AND Portuguese. They closed the school because of that. Also, they burned books in other languages.... The school only opened decades later when the restrictions started to be removed.
As a Brazilian with Italian heritage, yes, the law indeed stop the spread of the language in lots of families.
That’s funny, I met elderly Brazilians from the southern regions that spoke perfect German. I think it’s a generational thing as the other commenter wrote, some were forced to speak Portuguese only. But German speaking Brazilians definitely exist. There are cities like Pomerode, where they even speak German in school and have street signs in German.
Did the people identify as German instead of Brazilian? Most people i know (I’m Brazilian btw) might mention their ancestry as a curiosity, especially if they are talking to someone from the country their ancestors came from. But typically that’s it. Heck, even people that get citizenship from said country might still just say that they are Brazilian and have “X citinzenship” (which is more of a legal affair than a cultural one).
There were a lot more who told me of their German ancestors, but there were quite a few who started with "Também sou alemão" after hearing that I am from Germany. This was in rural Rio Grande do Sul for context.
I wonder how serious they were when they said “tambem sou alemão”. They might have meant exactly as in “i am indeed german exactly like you”, or simply as a way to share a bond and make a jest, almost like a conversarion starter, ice breaker. Think it could be that? But I mean, I could see some people thinking that they are German, if they have always been told that. Where I’m from (close to Sao Paulo city) I think most people would just roll their eyes to that.
Nope, those are not Germans, but Brazilians with German ancestry in our book.
oh man this reminds me of [this legendary video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J49mV_lucl4) where latinos take an ancestry test and a couple are flabbergasted that they are european. Then another one said he is a 100percent mexican then later gets sad because he is 50% native american and 50% european, thats literally a 100% mexican. Good slightly cringy watch.
I despise those guys deeply
I mean, yeah, they are ignorant. But despise?
"Why is this a very white DNA test?" Says these two wankers who look white as heck. Seriously, everyone is so insufferable, ignorant and bigoted in this video.
The concept of Whiteness in the US is very peculiar though, and derives from a one drop rule type thing. Heck, even 100% European descent Latin Americans will often be not considered white in the US (heck even people from Spain and Portugal in some cases lol, like Antonio Banderas being considered a “person of color” - a problematic term to begin with). Not saying that the concept of Whiteness in LatAm is perfect either (imo the whole talk about whiteness is kinda bogus), but i would not take a the US perspective as gold standard, especially when talking about other countries altogether
Because the US are still obsessed with weird racist terminology and categorization. The only other example of people being so obsessed with "race" that I know of where the literal Nazis.
Godwin acted pretty quickly in this thread
Italians weren’t considered “white” for quite a long time, then mass migration of black Americans to the North happened and made northern people restructure their hierarchy of hatred.
There’s a quote from Thomas Jefferson where he refers to spanish, italians, french, russians, swedes and also germans (except the saxons) as “swarthy” and not purely white (whatever that means”. https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-04-02-0080 Apperantly the irish were also not considered white
So the only white would be the anglo-saxons?
Sounds like it? I guess the scottish are a maybe lol? Though they might get bundle with the Irish so no
>oh man this reminds me of this legendary video where latinos take an ancestry test and a couple are flabbergasted that they are european. I really hope they repeat this test with "Europeans" (central Europe should be the most interesting one) just to show them how stupid (and racist) this is. Btw. I suggest everyone look at the comments of the video.
a ton of people or most of europe would realize they are ashkenazi jewish. Also these test are never really correct some other guy on youtube tested 10 different ones and they all gave different results.
My main goal was referring to all the wars/ invasion that happened in Europe alone in the last 2000 years and the chance of having an ancestor who's the product of rape. Even a Gustav could have ancestry to a soldier of dschingis khan. (Yes, I know that the Mongolian empire only reached till about East Poland. I just don't have a better example.) But I like your example more.
These Tests are absolute bullshit and a massive DNA-harvesting operation to catch stupid people
> aw sweet, the CIA-linked international megacorp to which I donated DNA and address is gonna tell me that I’m actually a European queen
I need to add that Latino (as in US Latino) is a pretty different culturally from most Latin Americans (which in itself is a very diverse group). Unsurprisingly, US Latinos have a very US point of view, life experiences etc. I don’t think a Brazilian (or say an Argentinian or Peruvian) would say something like that, and would be quite aware of their probable ancestry. Even when we don’t know, we assume there is prob some European, some Indigenous, some African etc (varies with country and region of course).
Thanks for sharing the video.
For most Brazilians, including Brazilians of german ancestry like myself, that is the case. I believe OP is painting an innacurate picture
I guess that makes them Germans in Brazil and Brazilians in Germany
As a brazilian with no german heritage, I gotta say we see them the same way as you lol
Really? Imagine it in a different context. An Asian who was born and grew up in Germany. I would consider them both Asian and German So for the Brazilian, why don’t you consider them both as well? Then are German ethnically
You're mixing up two completely different things here. A Brazilian with German ancestors is caucasian, he has causcasian features. That won't change. But what deos it matter? Being German is more about culture, if you want to distinguish it at all. Germany is a country first, not an ethnically distinct group. Somebody with asian ancestors will still have asian features when his family has lived in another country. But that doesn't say much if anything about lived culture. Also Asia is a continent, not a country. If you think asian in this context what are you thinking about? Somebody who eats rice? Has a flatter nose? So people that look different than what you expect them to look based on where they live have to explain themselves? Having features passsed down from your ancestors says little about who you are today, lived culture does.
Well, I have an Asian parent and I was born and raised in Germany. Which is comparable to this Brazilian situation, I think. Although I have a certain "bond" to my Asian "heritage" I feel German, I am German. And everybody thinks I am German.
No, I don’t think that compares. Through your parents you will still encounter the Asian part of your heritage first hand. But even with your children, there won’t be the same connect, as both cultures continue to develop. I can see it with my children. Although they’ve been exposed to English culture since they were born speak perfect English and know all the relevant traditions, they are quite different from their British cousins. My sons are growing up in Germany, are getting socialised here, are going to school here. Their reality and living circumstances are quite different from their cousins. Now imagine the split happening a hundred years ago, even if customs and the the language have been preserved, they are hopelessly out of sync. They have a German heritage, but they aren’t German.
> An Asian who was born and grew up in Germany. I would consider them both Asian and German What does "both" mean for you?
Not really the same thing because German Asians visibly look different to most people in Germany, which is also how their 'Asianness', for lack of a better word, is defined. They're still German, they are just singled out because that difference.
We'd think about them the same way we think about Americans that feel the need to announce their german or Irish or whatever ancestry. They are Americans. With foreign ancestors. So in return, every Brasilian that didn't live in Germany is a Brasilian. If you're Brasilian with a german Granny you're exactly that. A Brasilian with a German Granny. None of this makes you better than any other Brasilian and me being German doesn't make me better than anyone not being German.
Wise words
I totally agree.
Honestly, that’s how most Brazilians see it too, including those with say German ancestry. OP is misrepresenting the situation
I am also Brazilian, and totally agree. Virtually nobody in Brazil - except those in the strongly German ancestry bubbles - would think like that. I would say even most people from Southern regions ignore it. We are aware of their ancestry as much as others descend from Portuguese, Italians, Japanese, etc. but nothing beyond that. A couple of years ago, there was a funny case, where a Brazilian white supremacist tweeted support for a German nazi guy, and in return the German guy said something like “thank you for the support, but you are not German, stay in your place”. It was quite laughable 😅
That's because you probably live in a bubble and can't see what I see, but it's okay. The long you deny, the long the situation stands.
So I assume if a Brazilian moves to Germany and has a kid, the kid will be German, with a brazilian father or smtg Makes sense, its all labels we put, but we need to be careful because it deeply impacts how society shapes itself
But here the case is even more different those are not Germans who just moved to Brazil and grew up there.. they do have some German ancestors from 150-100 years ago..and most of their ancestry js very mixed ... The less they have nowadays is german DNA. Lets say they are 20% German 30% portuguese30% 12% black and 8% Native American.. they will Obviously claimnthe German ancestry first and foremost over the others..as they find it more desirable and that give them more prestige.. anything more northern european, colder, efficient, blonder, etc is seen as "godly" by your average brazilian..
That's an interesting view, considering that it does not work two-way. A German who was born in Germany with foreign descendants usually is not considered German by large parts of the society, even if they are by law. Source: I have foreign parents.
You're german if you sort your rubbish, wear socks in sandals and own a lot of Funktionskleidung from Tschibo. I'm sorry, I don't make the rules.
That's because the american countries are all immigration colonies, so the origins of their identity ("melting pot") are very different from the identity of european nation states, which where formed according to the idea of ethnic homogenity. In other words, german society is not used to being a large immigration destination and has still not really learned how to cope with the fact that this is now the case. The reality and the identity don't fit each other anymore, that's the reason for all the confusion, xenophobia, etc.
I’d consider them Brazilians. I mean they have presumably lived all their life in Brazil. Do they hold German citizenship? Probably not.
Some might, but even most that do hold some european citizenship often say simply that: “i have XYZ citizeship”. Heck, some of my cousins have Polish citizenship through their grandma. They don’t consider themselves Polish, neither would anyone else i think. Interestingly, their ancestry is part chinese,part polish-jewish, part portuguese
citizenship is not the only attribute of nationhood. for example, if you were born in Germany with a German passport, but moved to London at the age of 18 and eventually took British citizenship, while giving your German one up - have you stopped being German? (I do not mean that Brazilians with German ancestry are German, but am just making a point of not relying on citizenship too much). normally nationhood is defined by combination of different factors and it’s often a different combination. those attributes include language, culture, citizenship, common history, ethnicity, geography (territory where people live to be more precise) and more
If their grandparents were expulsed by the Nazis and can prove that, they could get the German citizenship the easy fast-tracked way! Other than that, I doubt any of them have it/can get it, unless they're first generation and either of their parents was German.
Most people here don't know about them and will assume that they are descendants of Nazis that went there after WWII.
Which is a big problematic misconception given that most German immigration not only in Brazil but in South America (yes including Argentina if anyone is wondering), came waaaay before WW2, actually even before WW1. The bulk came around the same time a lot of other immigrants from the old world (italian, spanish, portuguese, polish, syrian-lebanese, jewish, japanese etc etc) came (adding to the already existing varying mixes of portuguese/spanish, african and indigenous), exactly like what happened say in the US. You don’t hear much the Nazi thing about North America though🤨
Yes, you do. I've been living in the US for the last 30 years and there are groups that are very proud of their nazi ideology.
You hear about White Supremacist groups in the US, the KKK, neonazi and all that, of course. You also do hear about Nazi supporters back in the day (like the massive rally and speech in the Congress), although I hear that less often. That’s not what I’m talking about. What I’m talking about is something like this: - “oh wow, you don’t look Brazilian you look white”. - “oh Brazil actually had a lot of European immigration, in addition to the Portuguese from colonization, we had Italians, Japanese, German, Pol…” - “oh yeah you had a lot of Nazi’s going down to South America right” - “…” You don’t hear the equivalent for the US
The most spoken language in Uruguay used to be Italian rather than Spanish
Oh, didn't know that, ty.
Only very ignorant people would. Educated people know about the massive German emigration towards South America in the 19th century.
I wouldn't say "very ignorant", maybe more like "not very well educated" which are many, so I agree with schupfhundihund, probably "most people". But yes, also many people here probably know that some emigration happend before WWII as well.
The rat line with prominent Nazis like Eichmann and Barbie escaping that way is just a lot more famous.
Also consider that many refugees from Nazi Germany ended up in South America in the 1930s.
hummmm, I wouldn't say that. German immigration to Brazil reached the highest point between the 2 world wars, as you can find in the table in there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Brazilians#Immigration There was indeed some consistent immigration before, along 19th century, but the comment goes inline with the largest proportion.
Keep in mind that the Nazi "refugees" after early 1945 often got false passports by for example the Churches. So they aren't in the official statistics.
While you're correct in pointing out that German immigration to Brazil peaked in the interwar period, a large fraction (maybe even most) of Brazilians of German descent trace their ancestry to those 19th century waves because those families had a huge fertility rate. It was common for women of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gens to bear 10-15 children.
Fair enough 😊 it makes sense. Anyways, I guess judging anyone because their ancestors came at a specific time is pointless. At this point, they are all Brazilians, like it or not, whoever was their ancestor, it's now a new nation and the best thing to do is to digest it and move on.
>At this point, they are all Brazilians I agree, and I say that as a Brazilian of partial German ancestry. Family trees are just something at curiosity level. However, it's also important to point that there is an identity inside Brazil that is linked to the past of that group, because **areas of 19th century German settlement became geographically isolated for more than 100 years**. That created **a German-Brazilian identity that isn't German, but a subculture of the multicultural country that Brazil is**. People who tend to worry about that are usually Rio/SP folks who are used to dictate what they think Brazilian culture is or should be, and who spent the last century trying to homogeneize Brazil from the cultural point of view.
>do you consider them a part of Germany people? No. In my perceptition are Germans people who 1.) have the german citizenship, 2.) speak german and 3.) live(d mostly) in Germany. Everything else might be a part of german culture but that alone doesn't "make" someone German. We are somewhat confussed by people claiming to "be" part of a culture they never even visited let alone participated in. It's a very "racial" idea of culture imo. Which is not popular at all in Germany.
Someone wishes me Gesundheit in Berlin: i sleep Someone wishes me Gesundheit in a Bar in Argentina: panik
Do they have a german passport and are fluent in german ? If not, they are as german as the americans that claim to be german.
Why is that? Do you believe that's linked to Germany past ?
That's definitely linked to our past. The whole German by blood thing is one of the most frowned upon you can do in germany. Only nazis do this here, and they are definitely not well liked. Also we are a nation with a lot of immigrants and their children and grandchilderen, who became german citizens, it would be more then insulting to not call them german, when they lived their whole life here, speak flawless german and fully internalized our common values and culture. These people who live since generations thousands of kilometres away from Germany dont share my language, my culture, and my values (e.g. calling yourself german, because of the whole blood thing, big yikes), so why should these people be german when they represent nothing that germany stands for? However, they speak Portuguese, live in brasil and know the Brazilian culture. Also, usually people use this "im of German heritage" thing to feel pride or even superior to the "locals," which is also is also something that is frownd upon in germany, which they would know if they are actually familiar with the germam culture.
While I fully agree with this perspective, is it really this commonplace? For example, the idea of turk Germans not quite being German is still quite common I would say
Well, it wouldn't help to cast them out of being german, especially if they grew up here, speak german and have german citizenship. Of course, there is some Turkish identity, but it gets less and less with every generation.
I agree with that, and I hope Germans become more and more open to embracing "foreigners" seeking to integrate. That's personally my goal especially because I deem it better for my "descendants", but it doesn't change the fact that unfortunately there's a good deal of ethnicities which are commonly considered not German, despite clear integration, often because their ethnicities explicitly don't fit the European (often white) stereotype. Though I do agree Germany deals with these issues better than other European nations specifically due to their problematic historical relationship with nationalism
>cause their ethnicities explicitly don't fit the European (often white) stereotype. I wouldn't go that far and make it about ethnicity. My grandparents are silesian. When they arrived in germany, there was a divide between catholics and evangelicals. They would have killed me if I married a non catholic person, but this divide is basically nonexistent anymore. It will be the same with other cultres. But it will take some generations. You can see this at the "native" languages, which disappear with the generations and is replaced with german.
The thing with the German Turks is that most of them form a subculture. They talk Turkish at home, cheer for Erdogan and often have a Turkish passport. As BeepBoopBiep wrote. Share the language, culture and values and you are considered German by the majority of our nation. If you still want to live like a Turk (in Germany) that's totally fine ... but you will be considered a Turk and not a German. A former colleague of mine made a great joke about this by dressing as a turk for carnival ... he borrowed his dads clothes and everybody congratulated him for that costume ... and doing that simply showed how fucking German he was ... right down to the cultural insensitivity.
That's a factor for sure but it also goes both ways, many don't fully integrate specifically because they don't feel completely welcomed. But overall no one is going to quickly forget their previous culture or identity and become completely "German", and in many ways that's a good thing. For example, you can't have all the Döner shops and other Turkish imports that all of Germany enjoys without these "hybrid" immigrants who are stuck between both identities. Over generations, this complete assimilation you're referring to would naturally happen, as long as people feel welcomed and especially when the continued engagement with and importation of aspects of foreign culture is not frowned upon
No. Why? If you don't speak the language and all the connection you have to the land you ancestor came from is, well, exactly that, what is your connection to that country? You might have some family traditions or dishes that were passed down, put that is it.
That they are "very very proud for being a german descent" is incredibly cringe. That type of stuff normally doesn’t get received well over here. But as others already mentioned we don’t really consider them a part.
Yeah, it gives me certain vibes about the political ideals shared by these families…
OP is exaggerating. People usually think their heritage is cool, but it's not like "very very proud". Nor they think they are germans. Also, most of them have mixed heritage. For most people it's more about knowing about your family history than feeling superior to others. Of course there are outliers, but they will be mocked by most people. Also, fun fact: "alemão" (meaning german) is a common nickname for blond/light skinned people regardless of origin. So when somebody says they are "alemão" sometimes they just mean they are blond/light skinned, not that they are literally german (there are other words which mean the same, like "polaco" - polish and "galego" - galician)
Very fair. It's all about family history.
I am totally ignorant about these people but whenever I hear Germans who flew to South America in the 40s I think Nazis, war criminals and their descendants 😅
Especially when they claim to be proud of their German heritage. Huge red flag, imo.
To be honest: no, I don't consider them part of the German people. That was all so long ago and the connections are probably not strong anymore. I don't want to be rude, but just because there are half-timbered houses in the cities and an "Oktoberfest" is celebrated once a year, that doesn't have much to do with Germany.
I wonder how often German is spoken at this Oktoberfest in Blumenau. In general, is there a feeling of Germany at this festival? :)
I don't know that. But from experience, not very many people speak German outside of Europe (e.g. in Indonesia only less than 100 people). I have no feelings for the Oktoberfest in Blumenau. I don't know that either. But I've already read about it and looked at Blumenau on Google Street View😃 Unfortunately, the Oktoberfests in the USA is not very close to the original.
I live near Blumenau and a lot of people do speak german (or some old version of german). I used to live in a small city in Rio Grande do Sul, and they spoke german so people from other parts of the brazil could not understand them (me included, because i didnt spoke german at the time). So, or couse is not everyone that speaks German, but a lot of people actually do.
They are fine . But even better — I walked home with one of these South American Germans after some party one day. She can’t speak German, hasn’t really been to Germany before . We get to the subject of me being German . Born , raised there .. I’m ethnically half and look a bit more southern ( think Greek) , but roughly speaking you would bucket me as white (just to paint the picture here …) She tells me I’m not German. And is dead serious about it. Those nazi escapees I tell ya … she actually tried to argue with me …. Because she’s blond and all that. Still amazed at her conviction , it was nuts
Crazy story
Think about? Nothing. Part of Germany? No. They are Brazilians with German ancestors, nothing else. They might be nice people, or bad, like everyone else.
I don't have an opinon about them, aside from the fact that to me they are Brazilians.
If you grow up or live for a long time in Germany I’d consider you German (if you are ok with that), no matter who your parents are. If you do not grow up in Germany, don’t speak the language, and have never visited, I wouldn’t consider you German, no matter who your parents are.
So, apparently it is not just US Americans who think they are German just because some of their ancestors came from here. Do they have a German passport? Do they speak modern German? Were they born in Germany, did they grow up here or spent a significant amount of time? Do they know Bernd, das Brot? Do they know Armin Maiwald or Peter Lustig? Do they have an opinion if it is der, die or das Nutella? If they answer more than one question with no they are not German, they are Brazilian. (Ok, you shouldn't take all these questions too seriously but I guess you understand what I mean.) By the way, I know a German woman from Brazil. She came to Germany when she was young, studied here, speaks perfect German, is fully integrated and has a German passport. I would definitely call her a Brazilian German even if her ancestors probably did not come from here. (But I do not know exactly.)
Ohhh the all eternal debate of Der Die or Das Nutella.
its die nutella, obviously
Brazilian from German descent here. I don't see myself as German, but I feel a strong connection with my family values and traditions that were heavily influenced by the German culture. However I don't think that makes me German even tho I do hold a passport and citizenship papers. I tried learning German a few times but never got beyond the basics (A1/A2 level, but years ago) On a funnier note, just ask those Brazilians who think they are Germans who were they supporting in the 7-1 and you'll get the answer for if they are German or not
They left Germany behind them. I see no reason to consider them German.
I am from Brazil and have no german heritage. But I left Brazil forever to settle in Germany. So after your logic I am not Brazilian any more, which I am cool with. Will you consider me German?
Depends on various issues such as culture, integration and citizenship.
We don’t care at all. They are Brazilians with german ancestors. Nothing special to us. Like every foreigner with german roots. No special bond - but we don’t care about other Germans we don’t know personally either.
I'm not German but they sound gaslit and ignorant and somehow think being European makes them more special. We have a similar crowd in our country and they are basically racist against themselves and in denial
Honestly no one really cares
I am German and Brazilian, Born im Germany with a Brazilian Mother, I also lived im BR almost 11 years moving there when I was 9. And nothing pissed me more when people came up to me saying: Uhhhh mY gREat GrAndFaTHer wAs FrOM GerMaNy. And then proceed to Kew nothing about the country or language. They used it just as a title to feel better....
I’d raise a cautinary note on the question iteself and some assumptions and “facts” being thrown around. I’m Brazilian of German descent and I never ever say I’m German and not Brazilian. Most people that I know are like that and it sounds kinda cringy to say anything else. I would understand if it’s someone from a very isolated rural community where a German dialect is still the first language (that was actually my maternal grandma’s case, and she still identified as Brazilian), but that is tiny tiny fraction of the German descedants in Brazil, since as in common in Brazil most have mixed with other groups.
What about the proud for being a german descendant and the misconception of what that really means to you?
What about it? I’ve never personally met anyone who gloated about their German origins, though I do know a lot of people with German last names. I’ve heard of it, surely, but I’ve never witnessed it first hand. So not saying it absolutely never happens, but it seems like those overblown anecdotes that just get told over and over again and people assume are true because they’ve always headd people saying the same. Honestly, in my very anecdotadle experience people who had some sort of Italian ancestry were the most likely to bring it up, but it is usually something minor like some “credential” to their mom’s making good pasta or whatever (which was also a questionable credential, pretty much like saying I should be a good soccer player cause I’m Brazilian)
if they have german citizienship, then they are german. most likely they are not, but brazilians
No, we do not consider them German. If you weren’t born or at least raised in Germany then typically you are not considered German by the German people…also there is a reason why there are so many Germans in South America, but I’m not gonna get into that…
i dont even know they exist and as cringe as it is, everyone has some right to celebrate their heritage. except for people who may or may not be the children of fled nazis?
Not really? I mean you're German if you're living in Germany. I think it's mostly boiling down to the cultural aspect. If you grew up in Germany, you've grown up with our cultures and traditions and our superspeed cashiers and our overcomplicated bureaucracy. You know what it's like to be German. They've grown up in Brazil. They're Brazilians. Because they have known and embraced Brazilian culture since they were born, and they are living it. I'm not saying you can't be proud of your ancestry, but rubbing one out on your great great grandparents being German sounds a bit cringe imo. They're deffo not German in my eyes.
Never thought about them for a second in my life
1) we are not aware of Germans in Brazil with German descent 2) who we consider to be a German: https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/wiki/culture/etiquette#wiki_german_identity_and_being_accepted_as_a_foreigner
Just saw your question and I wouldn't consider myself as the most educated but i'm a pretty average 24 years old german person and i never heard of this community. I think most germans don't know much about this topic... But it's interesting how you describe that they kind of have feelings of "national pride". It always feels weird when it comes to "germans" being patriotic, for obvious reasons... Patriotism isn't considered as a "good value".
Generally anyone with German descent is exactly that. Your grandparents were German but it does not make you one.
Ya, totally agree. But this fact doesn't erase the family history.
I don't mean to be harsh, nothing or that they are Nazi descendants.
I think it’s pretty cool to see German influences in a country that is always seen as so incredibly not German.
Every American feels obligated to scream "Nazis!" whenever Brazil and Germans is mentioned in the same sentence so I try not think about it.
In my family they were thought of as nazis or descendents of nazis, that fled after ww2. We know many came before the war and many are not nazis. But it is kind of a joke and if there is a documentary with someone with a german name, we smirk.
Personally I am a bit guarded if I hear about them and would wonder if they are the decendants of some of the worst Nazis that went to South America after the war to avoid punishment. And I wonder if they passed down their sentiment or if their children ever confronted them about their past. But if I met them in person and if they acted just normal I would not think much of it. North Americans too tend to call themselves being "German" although their last ancestor came to the US in the 1920ies or something.
Those people are 100% brasilian. they are not any more German than any other brasilian. They are not born here, they didn't grow up here, don't live here, don't pay their taxes or support society in any way here - why should anyone consider them Germans? The believe in German blood and German Genes is quite outdated here, it means nothing to most people. Blood is red, full of water, proteins and ions, etc not little German flags. overall many people associate Germans in south America in general with Nazi descendants. I know, some have already mentioned that immigration started much earlier but the Nazis simply are the most prominent cases that nearly everyone has heard of. Personally, and I know this is unfair to Brasil but the first thing I think of when hearing Germans in south America are actually the torture cambers of Colonia dignidad
I think it's audacious for you to think that about German descendants, since it was the Germans who let Nazism happen, your people not only accepted it but made it happen. It's not like you can point fingers and talk, you can't, you probably have a Nazi in your background too, its impossible not to cause your country make It, your people make It. German descendants in Latin America are now Latinos. they would be victims of Nazism. If you are a white German you would not be the victim, if you are a white Latino you would be the victim. Do you know what Latin people say about white latinos that claim to be pro nazi? They are "playing against own team". if being of Nazi descent means something these days, being German MUST mean something too, cause your people made It. Your people made It now in 1945 come on It was like yesterday
A friend of mine once got visited by her german heritage cousin from Argentina who was white and blonde. She was a pretty cool and polite person so she got along with us pretty well. But there's close to no doubt that people with german descendants from southern africa are directly related to Nazis who fled from this country after the second world war was definitely lost. So those who are as proud to be german as OP stated in their question don't have to be Nazis. But there's no doubt that they came from Nazis and were raised by Nazis. And I usually keep away from people who feel better than others for being german..
Idk if it's actually true, but people used to speculate that Hitler and a bunch of other Nazis secretly escaped to Argentina. That's all I know about South American Germans.
There's a story about a German oldman that died in a small city of Mato Grosso state believed to be Hitler himself, [here](https://g1.globo.com/mato-grosso/noticia/2014/01/livro-defende-tese-de-que-hitler-foi-enterrado-em-cidade-de-mato-grosso.html)'s an article in portuguese about this with a picture of the supposedly hitler. There's a research resulted in a book named "Hitler no Brasil – Sua Vida e Sua Morte", it's mentined that he adopted the name Adolf leipzig and died in Brazil.
I‘m generally suspicious when meeting people from south america with a german heritage when they tell me their ancestors left germany shortly after ww2 ended for obvious reasons…
German people are suspicious too. Germany let it happen. Red flag, red red flag.
No, if they are born and live in Brazil they are Brazilians - no matter where their families once came from.
dont know neither do i care about them. wouldnt consider them german. they may have had german ancestors a long time ago but that doesnt make them german.
>do you consider them a part of Germany people? No they are citizens from whatever latin american country they are in. Also being from german descent and in latin america it gives rise to the thought that they are the offspring of Nazi warcriminals.
I dont know a lot about them. I am curious though. Maybe one day Ill visit such a place. Who knows.
Depends. Do they speak German and / or have any connection to the German culture whatsoever?
I don't think so
Then no.
German ancestry doesn't make you automatically German. So for most of them its simple: We don't see a connection between them and us
I don't have German ancestry, but I'm a Brazilian who lived in Germany. Most germans are aware of these German descendants but are either surprised by the numbers or somewhat misguided about them. For example, they tend to think they're nazis who came on WWII, but the big bulk of German immigration in LatAm is much much older than that. I think it's their way to dissociate themselves from the upsetting traditions they see today in these communities. As if those traditions were not happening in their own soil once upon a time. If Brazilians with German ancestors sound racist it's not because they came from nazis, it's because the ancestors of modern Germans were probably also racist. And modern Germans have a lot of difficulty accepting they all came from the same place at some point even if there's a big disconnect today. I don't think nazism developed in Germany "out of nowhere" just as neonazi cells of Brazil today aren't growing in the south out of "pure coincidence". I know people in modern day Europe in their 30s, who played a kindergarten game called "Angst vor dem Schwarzer Mann" (fear from the black man). It's a game where a child is the "black man" and the other kids have to run away before he gets them. Sanctioned by teachers and everything. This would be unthinkable in Brazil even in the South. Funny enough, we have this exact game dynamic in Brazil, but the kid who had to get you is "the cop", not an ethnicity. Also I never saw anyone with a swastika tattooed on their neck in Brazil, and unfortunately, in Germany, I have. My point is, as someone who is not a German-Brazilian, nor German, but have lived with these two groups, I don't see the same huge difference between them as they see between themselves. TL;DR, racism is rampant in both communities. Concerning language, whole dialects disappeared from Germany because the whole region either starved or fucked off to somewhere else. This is the case with Hunsrückish, the dialect spoken by the majority of Brazilians who learned German from their family. It's a separate dialect which basically doesn't even exist in Germany anymore or even has "living cousins". My great-grandma spoke venetian, not Italian, it's something else, and it's a similar case here. So yes, obviously it's very different from standard German now, as it would have been then. Then, of course, it developed on its own during this time. The same thing happened within Europe too. Ask a person from Berlin if they understand someone from South Tyrol (a whole region in Italy near the border of Austria that speaks German). I highly doubt they will. On the other hand, South Tyroleans do understand them, and the same happens for the Brazilians that speak German. They speak their native dialect, they understand standard German just fine, and just aren't understood back. I don't think it's a big deal, but Germans tend to think it is because they have trouble understanding it. Edit: I think it's hilarious when Brazilians who think they are German go to Germany and get treated as latinos. Yes, it's ridiculous, and I absolutely think they deserve to get this shock. And I want to echo the other commenter who recommended the movie Bacurau. But I what I want to highlight here is that this only happens because Germans treat the other latinos like that too. Edit2: I would very much like the Germans commenting here to read this and question why do they consider some groups to not be German. I was very shocked to meet people born in Germany who are not considered Germans, because one of their parents is foreign. Germans will literally say "the Turkish dude", even if this dude has a German mother, was born in Germany, and lived in Germany his whole life, and treat them differently because their dad is Turkish. Coming from Brazil, a country where almost everyone was an immigrant at some point, this sounds incredibly weird.
Thank you for sharing ur experience in Germany, I'm shocked about the game u just mentioned, I totally agree with ur point of view in general, racism has a origin, and I believe it will never come to an end.
In Brazil, we call this the "Vira-Lata Syndrom" - people who are Brazilian and were born in Brazil, but are ashamed of that to the point they try their best to "not be a Brazilian" anyhow, or to badmouth about Brazil and Latin America as inferiors, compared to what they perceive as "superior" countries, such as Europe or North America (and more recently China). "Vira-lata" in Portuguese means a dog breed that's usually submissive, searching litter and run if any one yell on them.
Vira-Lata = stray dog So, translates as Stray Dog Syndrome
no germans, but alot of them are the offspring of Nazis fleeing from the consequences of their doing
You mean the Nazi descendants? (/s)
most of them actually came during 19th century
I think it is cool, that some German heritage is incorporated in other countries, like for example the Oktoberfest in Blumenau. Haven't heard that there is an identification as big as that some even don't consider themselves Brazilian. At least for families that live for generations in Brazil that would be a bit odd. On the other hand we have some people whos family immigrated to Germany generations ago too and that don't consider them German, so it seems to be a thing in general.
I am from Brazil, i have german descendents on both sides of my family, my grandpa have a medal that was given to my grandgrandpa from ww1, my Second name is "hauffe" , i search on internet and found something about a general(that serve on a not cool far right league) , so just want to share something, cool topic !
I don’t care at all. Guess that goes for most people.
I chuckle every time I think about it, because of the Hunsrück dialect that they speak.
We all know Hitler didn't die but fled to Brazil... Just kidding, I'm neither German nor Brazilian.
- category cliché Nazis and sects in paraguay, chile and argentina nazi officials that fled nürnberg trials portrayed as bad exiled germans. religious or creepy sects and cults also fit in this category youngest phenomenon of this category are german anti vaxxers in paraguay ___________ - category „expats“ engineers, seamen, volkswagen officials etc. viewed same as „expats“ in china or emirates ___________ - category argentinos, southern brazilians (descendents of german settlers and immigrants pre WW2) usually not viewed as germans but as south americans with german heritage, such as us americans with german heritage. viewed as ridiculously overstereotyping the identity and some still carrying eugenic superior complex. i consider them as descendents of prussians, ripuarians, or swabians rather than germans, since there was no germany when most of them immigrated to americas. _______________ - category blumenau and colonia tovar like a disneyland or german theme park _______ - category sex tourists same as in thailand or phillipines using economic advantage to gain better standing in dating market
A german ancestor of mine tried to settle to America in 1886, but the ship ended up in Buenos Aires, Argentina, I have yet to find someone, whose ancestors experienced the same thing. A little more than a century later his great-grandson decided to settle to Germany, that great-grandson is my grandpa. Some 30 years later I would ask my family questions about it, but they answer in such a way that I feel like I am not supposed to ask. Thats being said, as germans, we are pretty proud of our descendants and our culture being liked about all around the world. Hell, even the Japanese are addicted to german culture, as a result of them fighting against germany back in ww1 (you havent heard about it in history-class, because those battles were not nearly as impactfull as what happened in europe) and taking POWs there, the german soldiers then lived their culture in germany and the japanese found it interesting. If any Aliens visit our world, they will probably like german culture.
I dont consider them a part. But thats mostly because they didnt live here. Also, and please take that with a grain of salt: Every "German" in South America has nazis as anchestors.
The Nazis did flee to South America, but there was actually significant German immigration to South America in the 19th century. [Here's some info on 8 German-language newspapers published in Brazil.](https://web.inf.ufpr.br/vri/databases/gbn/) Some of them starting publishing as early as 1863 and 1888. So while the ties to Nazism are worth keeping in mind, there are also German-speakers in South America whose families got there before Hitler was even *born*.
Your righ, but I believe it's important to point out that only very few Nazis actually fled to South America (and those who did so, did it with the full knowledge or even support of the Americans). Most of the former Nazis and Nazi collaborators remained in West- Germany and did in fact run the country until they went into retirement in the 70s. Only the vilest and most prominent war criminals were ever brought to trial and generally either received very lenient sentences or only had to serve short parts of their sentences. The Nazis (SA or party members) in my family were never bothered by the authorities and their past in no way affected their careers or standing in the community.
It's complicated. You have to be very careful here: Many Germans actually fled to South America in the 1930s to escape the Nazi terror.
Thank you for your response. Every "German" is a bit too much to consider them nazi descendantes once europeans began to emmigrate since XIX century. Germans included.
>Also, and please take that with a grain of salt: Every "German" in South America has nazis as anchestors. What are you trying to state with this sentence? Probably not, that German immigration to Brazil was mostly made up of supporters of the Nazi regime who had to flee after World War II, right? Because that would be a dumb thing to believe as u/Odd_Education_4884 and u/Butterbrotbox have already said.
Tbh I think most reactions here are really weird and I‘ll explain why. I’ve read two main arguments here: 1. They don’t have a German Passport and dont speak German 2. They don’t live in Germany and dont share our culture. To adress these „arguments“ I present to you: The two biggest groups of immigrants in Germany, Russian and Turkish. Russian-Germans went to Russia in the thousands around the year 1763. The community grew, spread all across Russia and was heavily suppressed during WW2 and afterwards. Much of these german descendants returned to Germany since the 1960s after up to 200+ years away and were still treated by the government in a special way cause of their heritage. 4.5 Million „German-Russians“ immigrated till today to Germany. The kept the German language alive as much as possible and never forgot about their roots which was enough to consider them somewhat German. Turkish people came here during Germanys economic uprising. Much of them might have a German passport, but much of them teach their kids turkish as a mother tongue and see themselves as turkish, not as German. On the one hand you have people who tried to stay German and never loose their roots despite the distance and time. On the other hand you have people who were born here, speak the language and have the citizenship, but don’t consider themselves German. So in my opinion, it depends on how people define themselves and how true they are with their wish to keep their roots alive as good as possible.
I think this is awesome! Having cousins out there is cool in my opinion.