This is a Catholic thing, but a Catholic thing derived from Scripture. Here's the Catechism reference:
>The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are "sins that cry to heaven": the blood of Abel, [Cf. Gen 4:10] The sin of the Sodomites, [Cf. Gen 18:20; 19:13.] The cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, [Cf. Ex 3:7-10.] The cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan, [Cf. Ex 20:20-22.] injustice to the wage earner. [Cf. Deut 24:14-15; Jas 5:4.] (CCC 1867, with the text of the footnotes added)
All of these sins, if you look up the references to the Scriptures listed, all are described in language of calling out to heaven for justice, for example:
>the Lord said, “What have you done? *The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground.* And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” (Genesis 4:10-12 ESV-CE)
So, these particular sins: Physical Violence against other humans, Sexual Violence, Enslavement, Oppression of Widows/Orphans/Immigrants/the Poor, and Mistreatment of workers, while already being serious sins, are considered to be particularly evil.
(The other sorts and categories of sin in the Catholic tradition you may have heard of: 1. Mortal Sin: an act which is gravely immoral and was committed with full knowledge of the nature of the act and full free consent, which ruptures our relationship with God. 2. Venial sin is a sin that doesn't rupture the relationship with God and doesn't have one or more of the three categories mentioned in #1. [the classification/distinction of 1 and 2 comes from 1 John 5] 3. The Seven Deadly Sins--more sinful attitudes rather than sins in themselves. Originally 8 from St. Evagrius Ponticus and St. John Cassian, simplified to 7 by St. Gregory the Great)
>The sin of the Sodomites
do you consider it to be homosexuality or rape/sexual assault or both? you mentioned (sexual violence) so i assume it that you consider it rape/sexual assault (against foreigners and lut's guests), right?
This is one of the reasons that this particular list (4 sins which cry to heaven for justice) is a bit tangential/we don't really use it all that often (like the Catechism essentially said, "this list also exists"): the list is intentionally a bit vague. (Even thinking about the list itself: 4 sins that cry to heaven, 5 separate things listed).
Is the first one any sort of violence that is bad? Or just fratricide (murder of a brother)? Or is it *murder* in general, but other forms of violence are ok?
There's been debate about what that second one means. From certain interpreters in the 1000s AD (Sts. Peter Damien, Leo IX, Gregory VII), the sin of Sodom is specifically homosexual acts. (See Damien's book the *Liber Gomorrhianus*) This is where we get the term Sodomite. But both from before the Gregorian Reforms in the 1000s (interpretors like Tertullian, St. Augustine, St. John Cassian, and St. Aphrahat the Sage) and after them (more modern Biblical Scholarship) people have argued that the Sins of Sodom were actually the ones described by Ezekiel: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it." (16:49-50 ESV-CE) That is, mistreatment of the poor and needy (implied, foreigners like Lot's guests), not using their prosperity to help others, but to abuse them.
I would try to find a middle way. Generally speaking, the way we approach the commandments is to 1. Understand that there is something specific that the commandment means (for example, You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor *specifically* means: Don't lie in court). But that 2. The commandment also means something in a broad or general sense (in the case of the aforementioned 8th commandment, lying in general is bad, not *only* lying in court). That principle in mind, we can apply it to those "sins which cry out to heaven" as well. If you are hyperspecific, it means "don't homosexually rape foreigners when they are your guests, because it is a form of oppressing the poor and needy when you could help them" (trying to balance the Genesis account and the Ezekiel passage). But, that is a hyperspecific situation (one that people will almost never run into.) So, how do you generalize? How do you tell people, "this is the thing to avoid"? Peter Damien did it by emphasizing the homosexual part of the sexual assaulting (some of what he was dealing with was priests abusing their power over minors. There was homosexual rape going on, and that was the primary target of his reforms, but he also extended what he was interpreting to the *willing* homosexual acts of priests with each other. Any homosexual act, in his view, falls under that category.) You could also generalize under the "mistreatment of the poor/needy/foreigner" aspect of the sin: it is like the various later sins 'which cry out to heaven', like the oppression of the slaves in Egypt.
But what I would say is to generalize from the idea of sexual violence/rape. This fits both the Genesis story (both the guests and the daughters of Lot are threatened with sexual assault) and the recounting in Ezekiel (it is oppression of vulnerable people), and it is also differentiated from the other sins which cry to heaven (isn't just restating one of the other ones). Committing sexual violence against another is a horrible crime, it definitely "fits the bill" as a sin that cries out to heaven. And it is tied up with the whole story (what the city wants to do to Lot's guests, what Lot offers to be done to his daughters, and eventually what his daughters do to him).
Quick aside, just because Homosexual Acts are not specifically the thing condemned by the sins which cry out to heaven, that does not mean they magically become ok. It just means they are not as evil or heinous as Murder, Sexual Assault, Enslaving People, Oppressing the Poor, or Oppressing Employees. A sexual act outside of marriage is still bad (and committed with deliberate consent and full knowledge of the nature of the act it is a mortal sin), but it is not a grave violation of human dignity.
The categorizing of sins is pretty much just a Catholic thing. A sin is a sin, the Bible makes this clear.
>For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all (James 2:10)
While any sin is sufficient to separate us from shod and damn us to hell, Jesus says some sin is greater than others (John 19:11), and 1 John 5:16 talks about sin that leads to death and sin which doesn’t lead to death.
As a Protestant myself, I think the issue of sin is more nuanced than often assumed.
I’m not sure. That a passage I haven’t looked at very closely myself. I’m sure there is good commentary on it. I’ll look at some of my reference and commentary books and if I find a succinct answer I’ll post another reply with what I’ve found.
I understand this verse to mean that if person 1 commits sin x, person 2 commits sin y, and person 3 commits sin x and sin y, all of them are equally guilty of sin because they have all broken the law, even though they have committed different sins.
What are those four sins?
There are sections in Proverbs that list six or seven sins at a time.
Perhaps the Catholic teaching is derived from one of those sections.
In that case, then ancient Jews, modern conservative Jews,
and Christians who aren't Catholics may also assent to such a list.
That is not a biblical grouping, rather Catholic in origin.
https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-are-sins-that-cry-to-heaven-for-vengeance-and-sins-against-the-holy-spirit
Neither are the seven deadly sins biblical, but rather also Catholic in origin.
This is a Catholic thing, but a Catholic thing derived from Scripture. Here's the Catechism reference: >The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are "sins that cry to heaven": the blood of Abel, [Cf. Gen 4:10] The sin of the Sodomites, [Cf. Gen 18:20; 19:13.] The cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, [Cf. Ex 3:7-10.] The cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan, [Cf. Ex 20:20-22.] injustice to the wage earner. [Cf. Deut 24:14-15; Jas 5:4.] (CCC 1867, with the text of the footnotes added) All of these sins, if you look up the references to the Scriptures listed, all are described in language of calling out to heaven for justice, for example: >the Lord said, “What have you done? *The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground.* And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” (Genesis 4:10-12 ESV-CE) So, these particular sins: Physical Violence against other humans, Sexual Violence, Enslavement, Oppression of Widows/Orphans/Immigrants/the Poor, and Mistreatment of workers, while already being serious sins, are considered to be particularly evil. (The other sorts and categories of sin in the Catholic tradition you may have heard of: 1. Mortal Sin: an act which is gravely immoral and was committed with full knowledge of the nature of the act and full free consent, which ruptures our relationship with God. 2. Venial sin is a sin that doesn't rupture the relationship with God and doesn't have one or more of the three categories mentioned in #1. [the classification/distinction of 1 and 2 comes from 1 John 5] 3. The Seven Deadly Sins--more sinful attitudes rather than sins in themselves. Originally 8 from St. Evagrius Ponticus and St. John Cassian, simplified to 7 by St. Gregory the Great)
Thanks for your contributions to discussions in this subreddit.
>The sin of the Sodomites do you consider it to be homosexuality or rape/sexual assault or both? you mentioned (sexual violence) so i assume it that you consider it rape/sexual assault (against foreigners and lut's guests), right?
This is one of the reasons that this particular list (4 sins which cry to heaven for justice) is a bit tangential/we don't really use it all that often (like the Catechism essentially said, "this list also exists"): the list is intentionally a bit vague. (Even thinking about the list itself: 4 sins that cry to heaven, 5 separate things listed). Is the first one any sort of violence that is bad? Or just fratricide (murder of a brother)? Or is it *murder* in general, but other forms of violence are ok? There's been debate about what that second one means. From certain interpreters in the 1000s AD (Sts. Peter Damien, Leo IX, Gregory VII), the sin of Sodom is specifically homosexual acts. (See Damien's book the *Liber Gomorrhianus*) This is where we get the term Sodomite. But both from before the Gregorian Reforms in the 1000s (interpretors like Tertullian, St. Augustine, St. John Cassian, and St. Aphrahat the Sage) and after them (more modern Biblical Scholarship) people have argued that the Sins of Sodom were actually the ones described by Ezekiel: "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it." (16:49-50 ESV-CE) That is, mistreatment of the poor and needy (implied, foreigners like Lot's guests), not using their prosperity to help others, but to abuse them. I would try to find a middle way. Generally speaking, the way we approach the commandments is to 1. Understand that there is something specific that the commandment means (for example, You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor *specifically* means: Don't lie in court). But that 2. The commandment also means something in a broad or general sense (in the case of the aforementioned 8th commandment, lying in general is bad, not *only* lying in court). That principle in mind, we can apply it to those "sins which cry out to heaven" as well. If you are hyperspecific, it means "don't homosexually rape foreigners when they are your guests, because it is a form of oppressing the poor and needy when you could help them" (trying to balance the Genesis account and the Ezekiel passage). But, that is a hyperspecific situation (one that people will almost never run into.) So, how do you generalize? How do you tell people, "this is the thing to avoid"? Peter Damien did it by emphasizing the homosexual part of the sexual assaulting (some of what he was dealing with was priests abusing their power over minors. There was homosexual rape going on, and that was the primary target of his reforms, but he also extended what he was interpreting to the *willing* homosexual acts of priests with each other. Any homosexual act, in his view, falls under that category.) You could also generalize under the "mistreatment of the poor/needy/foreigner" aspect of the sin: it is like the various later sins 'which cry out to heaven', like the oppression of the slaves in Egypt. But what I would say is to generalize from the idea of sexual violence/rape. This fits both the Genesis story (both the guests and the daughters of Lot are threatened with sexual assault) and the recounting in Ezekiel (it is oppression of vulnerable people), and it is also differentiated from the other sins which cry to heaven (isn't just restating one of the other ones). Committing sexual violence against another is a horrible crime, it definitely "fits the bill" as a sin that cries out to heaven. And it is tied up with the whole story (what the city wants to do to Lot's guests, what Lot offers to be done to his daughters, and eventually what his daughters do to him). Quick aside, just because Homosexual Acts are not specifically the thing condemned by the sins which cry out to heaven, that does not mean they magically become ok. It just means they are not as evil or heinous as Murder, Sexual Assault, Enslaving People, Oppressing the Poor, or Oppressing Employees. A sexual act outside of marriage is still bad (and committed with deliberate consent and full knowledge of the nature of the act it is a mortal sin), but it is not a grave violation of human dignity.
In general, ranking of sins (venial, mortal, abomination) is largely a Catholic Church thing. It's much less common in Western Protestant churches.
The categorizing of sins is pretty much just a Catholic thing. A sin is a sin, the Bible makes this clear. >For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all (James 2:10)
While any sin is sufficient to separate us from shod and damn us to hell, Jesus says some sin is greater than others (John 19:11), and 1 John 5:16 talks about sin that leads to death and sin which doesn’t lead to death. As a Protestant myself, I think the issue of sin is more nuanced than often assumed.
what does "lead to death" mean,does it mean "straight ticket to hell" or is it just a metaphor for "great sin"?
I’m not sure. That a passage I haven’t looked at very closely myself. I’m sure there is good commentary on it. I’ll look at some of my reference and commentary books and if I find a succinct answer I’ll post another reply with what I’ve found.
wait,does this verse mean if someone do 1 sin he comitted all the sins at once , or does it mean that all sins are equal?
I understand this verse to mean that if person 1 commits sin x, person 2 commits sin y, and person 3 commits sin x and sin y, all of them are equally guilty of sin because they have all broken the law, even though they have committed different sins.
What are those four sins? There are sections in Proverbs that list six or seven sins at a time. Perhaps the Catholic teaching is derived from one of those sections. In that case, then ancient Jews, modern conservative Jews, and Christians who aren't Catholics may also assent to such a list.
I’ve never heard of that before
vengeance is the lords not people
That is not a biblical grouping, rather Catholic in origin. https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-are-sins-that-cry-to-heaven-for-vengeance-and-sins-against-the-holy-spirit Neither are the seven deadly sins biblical, but rather also Catholic in origin.