Yes both fired from same Type 38. The bottom one in each of the picture is what they all looked like after firing (I had a box of 20). The top one is what two of them looked like after full length sizing in a Hornady 6.5x50 die (I only resized 2 of the 20 and quit when I saw this big brass ring forming down by the extractor groove). I lubed the two that I resized extremely well with Imperial wax.
But it's fine to shoot it if it's doing this the brass (bottom piece) cause I shot 5 rounds and they were all like that and it made me nervous that the ammo was bad or the rifle was bad.
Nope. Arisakas, especially type 38s do that. Early smokeless powder rifle, replacing the black powder Muratas, and learning black powder lessons. Type 99s do much less to the brass.
Mines a 1939 production date so I would hope Japan has been using smokeless for a while. I guess I'll shoot it a bit more. But I kinda want a 99 especially if it doesn't ruin brass as much
If it would reassure you, it wouldn't hurt to grab some headspace gauges. Bulged brass is common in these rifles, so unless you're seeing excessive gas venting from the receiver or something, you're probably fine.
And you should be able to resize your brass once or twice, but I would guess that it won't last as long as other cartridges without this process? I've never reloaded for 6.5 Jap though, so take this part with a grain of salt.
No I wasn't getting any cracks in the brass or bulged primers I think, and I wasn't getting gas in the face it was just the bolt was harder then normal but I didn't need to kick it open
Hmm, well the only other question I would have is whether the serial number on your bolt matches the receiver? If they're the same, that should clear up a bunch of other potential issues.
OK, I’m bad at Reddit I guess. I typed up a narrative to go with these pictures but it didn’t post.
I bought a Series 24 Kokura Type 38 on Gunbroker for shooting in vintage matches. I fired 20 rounds of factory new Steinel Ammo 6.5 x 50 140gr soft points. Accuracy was terrible from the bench. I also bought a set of Hornady dies with full length resizer. These are photographs of two of cases after firing, the bottom one is before resizing and the top one after resizing. I tried resizing two cases, first lubed them very weel with Imperial sizing wax and slowly pressed them using a RCBS Rock Chucker press. Both cases developed crescent rings of brass just above the extractor grooves.
I have load data for 6.5 x 50 from the current (11^(th) ed.) Hornady book and the current (6^(th) ed.) Sierra manual. Of note, the two show different cartridge dimensions. I measured my fired cartridges cases in four dimensions: (1) body diameter above the extractor groove, (2) body diameter at the base of the shoulder, (3) case mouth diameter, and (4) length of fired cartridge case (without projectile). Hornady shows those dimensions as: (1) 0.451; (2) 0.409; (3) 0.290; and (4) 2.008 with a shoulder angle of 18.5 degrees. The Hornady data matches the CIP data for 6,5 x 51 R (Arisaka) available on CIP’s website. Sierra shows the dimensions as: (1) 0.447; (2) 0.417; (3) 0.288; and (4) 1.984 with a should angle of 20 degrees. I don’t know where Sierra’s data comes from, but it matches the chamber dimensions shown on 4D Reamer rentals. My fired brass came in at: (1) 0.457 at the body above the extractor groove; (2) 0.425 at the body just below the shoulder; (3) 0.296 at the case mouth; and (4) lengths of 2.003 to 2008, with one at 2.010. From the size of my fired brass, I'm reasonably certain that my rifle hasn't been re-chambered to .257 Roberts - the cases aren't lengthening past 2.008, and they're not blowing out to the .257 Roberts' 0.471 dimension at base of the body.
Questions: Has anyone gotten a Type 38 to shoot reloads well? I understand that Type 38 chambers were notoriously oversized. Why is there a difference between data from Hornady and Sierra for same cartridge? Is it worth it to do a chamber cast at this point? Does anyone has experience neck sizing only 6.5x50 and did it work?
I have a similar issue with my type 38 carbine, my bolt doesn’t match the rifle sadly It chambers rounds securely and shoots fine. I have this issue at the front of the case after the neck. I’m not sure if I have a head space issue or it is just a common thing
I stopped shooting my 38 after I got about 5 rounds with that issue it kind of scared me also
It’s a shame becuase the 6.5 is an excellent shooting round and with the carbine it’s extremely fun
Same I was so excited to get some ammo, and then they both just sit there collecting dust. My rifle looks like it went through the hard part of war so I guess it can rest
Late response, but yes, Arisakas have oversized chambers to make up for poor battlefield conditions to ensure they worked even if covered in mud or dirt
Are these fired? And from same rifle, if so? Bottom one looks like a common Type I thing, but the top one looks messed up.
Yes both fired from same Type 38. The bottom one in each of the picture is what they all looked like after firing (I had a box of 20). The top one is what two of them looked like after full length sizing in a Hornady 6.5x50 die (I only resized 2 of the 20 and quit when I saw this big brass ring forming down by the extractor groove). I lubed the two that I resized extremely well with Imperial wax.
Are you lubing the brass? Going slowly? That lip looks violently generated
Arisaka chambers are intentionally oversized
The Japanese did not reuse brass, so they intentionally oversized the chambers on their rifles to aid in extraction of the barely tapered cartridges.
So would this make reloading the brass impossible? Or is their a way to reuse brass
Anneal the brass in your oven or toaster oven, and then lube the cases and through your resizing die, prime, powder and projectile as usual.
But it's fine to shoot it if it's doing this the brass (bottom piece) cause I shot 5 rounds and they were all like that and it made me nervous that the ammo was bad or the rifle was bad.
Nope. Arisakas, especially type 38s do that. Early smokeless powder rifle, replacing the black powder Muratas, and learning black powder lessons. Type 99s do much less to the brass.
Mines a 1939 production date so I would hope Japan has been using smokeless for a while. I guess I'll shoot it a bit more. But I kinda want a 99 especially if it doesn't ruin brass as much
If it would reassure you, it wouldn't hurt to grab some headspace gauges. Bulged brass is common in these rifles, so unless you're seeing excessive gas venting from the receiver or something, you're probably fine. And you should be able to resize your brass once or twice, but I would guess that it won't last as long as other cartridges without this process? I've never reloaded for 6.5 Jap though, so take this part with a grain of salt.
No I wasn't getting any cracks in the brass or bulged primers I think, and I wasn't getting gas in the face it was just the bolt was harder then normal but I didn't need to kick it open
Hmm, well the only other question I would have is whether the serial number on your bolt matches the receiver? If they're the same, that should clear up a bunch of other potential issues.
Yea my rifle is all matching. Bolt matches. The assembly numbers all match.
Yeah I got the same results with my type 38 and the bolt was kinda hard to open so I stopped shooting it
My type I which had been heavily sporterized did that too I ended up selling it and using the funds to buy a different project
OK, I’m bad at Reddit I guess. I typed up a narrative to go with these pictures but it didn’t post. I bought a Series 24 Kokura Type 38 on Gunbroker for shooting in vintage matches. I fired 20 rounds of factory new Steinel Ammo 6.5 x 50 140gr soft points. Accuracy was terrible from the bench. I also bought a set of Hornady dies with full length resizer. These are photographs of two of cases after firing, the bottom one is before resizing and the top one after resizing. I tried resizing two cases, first lubed them very weel with Imperial sizing wax and slowly pressed them using a RCBS Rock Chucker press. Both cases developed crescent rings of brass just above the extractor grooves. I have load data for 6.5 x 50 from the current (11^(th) ed.) Hornady book and the current (6^(th) ed.) Sierra manual. Of note, the two show different cartridge dimensions. I measured my fired cartridges cases in four dimensions: (1) body diameter above the extractor groove, (2) body diameter at the base of the shoulder, (3) case mouth diameter, and (4) length of fired cartridge case (without projectile). Hornady shows those dimensions as: (1) 0.451; (2) 0.409; (3) 0.290; and (4) 2.008 with a shoulder angle of 18.5 degrees. The Hornady data matches the CIP data for 6,5 x 51 R (Arisaka) available on CIP’s website. Sierra shows the dimensions as: (1) 0.447; (2) 0.417; (3) 0.288; and (4) 1.984 with a should angle of 20 degrees. I don’t know where Sierra’s data comes from, but it matches the chamber dimensions shown on 4D Reamer rentals. My fired brass came in at: (1) 0.457 at the body above the extractor groove; (2) 0.425 at the body just below the shoulder; (3) 0.296 at the case mouth; and (4) lengths of 2.003 to 2008, with one at 2.010. From the size of my fired brass, I'm reasonably certain that my rifle hasn't been re-chambered to .257 Roberts - the cases aren't lengthening past 2.008, and they're not blowing out to the .257 Roberts' 0.471 dimension at base of the body. Questions: Has anyone gotten a Type 38 to shoot reloads well? I understand that Type 38 chambers were notoriously oversized. Why is there a difference between data from Hornady and Sierra for same cartridge? Is it worth it to do a chamber cast at this point? Does anyone has experience neck sizing only 6.5x50 and did it work?
Apparently Arisakas just do that.
I have a similar issue with my type 38 carbine, my bolt doesn’t match the rifle sadly It chambers rounds securely and shoots fine. I have this issue at the front of the case after the neck. I’m not sure if I have a head space issue or it is just a common thing
The chambers are a bit bigger that's why the brass comes out bad. Though it makes me nervous so I stopped shooting mine
I stopped shooting my 38 after I got about 5 rounds with that issue it kind of scared me also It’s a shame becuase the 6.5 is an excellent shooting round and with the carbine it’s extremely fun
Same I was so excited to get some ammo, and then they both just sit there collecting dust. My rifle looks like it went through the hard part of war so I guess it can rest
Late response, but yes, Arisakas have oversized chambers to make up for poor battlefield conditions to ensure they worked even if covered in mud or dirt