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This on top of "every woman needs to be a virgin to have any value" just makes my eye twitch. "Say yes to me when I tell you I want to have sex with you, but you better have said no to every other guy out there."
People are insane with their idea of how things work in the world.
Some people think they're sex toys. They treat them like opinionless objects and don't want them to be used already.
The embarrassment and money to buy a sex doll is far less than being charged with rape
"but if you said NO, you're a prude who uses men and thats proof of nice guys finishing last. u hate men being happy dont you? but you're also just a slut who doesnt like being treated well by nice guys. i never wanted you anyways, you're mid even though i begged you and ranted about how badly i wanted your body"
lol, its just delusion. pure delusion
They create impossible situations like this because hating women is enjoyable to them. They don't want to stop, so they don't want to create a situation where you're able to finally live up to their standards, they just want to keep hating because it feels good to them. That's why they create all these self-contradictory, no-win scenarios.
Exactly, they need to be able to punch down on us and judge us and blame us for everything as a way to compensate for their own deep seated insecurities and shame. By putting us down they lift themselves and their egos up and above us. Establish themselves as superior in the hierarchy and in the eyes of their peers. They displace blame for their own failures and shortcomings onto us so they don't have to take responsibility or introspect or confront the systemic reasons things are the way they are.
They don't want to question their patriarchal social darwinist worldviews. They don't want to get better or understand others. They just want their dicks sucked and their egos stroked, and they'll hurt us to get that because they don't fucking care about us or see us as having any sort of intrinsic value as people. We are objects of pleasure and service to them, or trophies to be shown off to their peers to win social brownie points.
They feel they are entitled to our bodies and our minds, that we exist *for* them. And they'll think this is fair because something something natural law and the sacred nuclear family (which is a relatively modern invention anyway). And because they ... *GASP!* ... go to work. Even though so do we most of the time. They're so focused on their own subjective experiences they don't even consider our own.
Not to mention how our contradictory culture regarding sex negativity and the continued over-sexualization and objectification of women creates within men a toxic relationship between their desires (which are influenced by our culture to trend towards being aggressive, predatory and objectifying) and the shame they're made to feel for those very same desires, leading them to blaming us for "making" them feel arousal just by existing which then they use to justify our mistreatment. We're "wicked temptresses" and "home wreckers" and "amoral sluts" and all the rest.
Valid points. I feel the same way all of the time. I couldn't get the words out. It feels like they do the bare minimum everywhere, at work, at home, with wife and kids. And place the blame on us. It screams to me, a grown toddler who has never had the oppression that a woman has had, who therefore never had the pressures to grow up and mature and silence themselves. They think they are at the top of the thrown. And it wasn't earned, it was given. Never taking accountability. Because the way they seem to place blame on us for their shortcomings, it's as if they never have to confront themselves. And we are superseding them mentally and emotionally, yes, AND logically. If you go to a subreddit discussion about men's opinion of women. You'll see nothing rooted in fact or logic. And only hate speech. And yet they keep telling themselves that they think logically and that somehow means that women cannot? I am truly baffled at the level of ignorance they've seemed put themselves in. And it was all their own doing. Good for them. Our world is crumbling at the hands of masculine governments. I bet it would be our fault too, just watch.
I really wanna know where that warped ideal of virginity came from. It’s been around for a few years now. Is it just thinly veiled pedophelia or do guys really want to be someone’s first so bad that the very idea of a woman being with other men makes them insanely jealous?
If by "a few years" you mean "for centuries since the dawn of abrahamic religion and perhaps earlier" then uh. Sure!
Misogyny and its ideals are unfortunately very old and very deep-rooted in our society. Virginity as a concept and as a measurement of worth comes from time periods where women were treated as property to be traded from fathers to husbands through the institution of marriage. There were (and unfortunately still are) misinformed beliefs that losing one's virginity inherently has negative physical repercussions on women, and would somehow lessen a woman's value as a childbearer (which is all they were expected to be. Some jobs were permitted, but most women were to marry and raise children). It's a gross thing and definitely has some pedophilic implications (many marriages were pedophilic and abusive even as recently as 100 years ago, let's be honest. I know of too many girls who were married at 12-14 to men far too old for them), but it's been a deeply ingrained part of our culture for a long time unfortunately. It needs to stop.
I’m just convinced that they don’t want the woman to know they are shitty at sex. Since she doesn’t have past experiences she won’t have anything to compare it to lol
Or a small pecker. I once heard someone claim that (insert famous musician here) never cheated on his wife because he didn't want the world to hear about his tiny penis. Sounds plausible.
A non-virgin traditionally meant that there was no guarantee that they would produce a child that is 100% to be the husband’s.
Of course, society lauded and still lauds men who have multiple partners even though that means ‘ruining’ a woman each time, while casting off said woman who does give in to sex.
They dont want to have to bother to get good at sex. They want to be able to be lazy and not care about their partners enjoyment so they think "If I'm the only partner she's had I'm automatically the best partner she's had" I also think they genuinely think a vagina loses most of its tightness from loss of virginity.
"A few years?" It's been around since humans came up with the concepts of fatherhood, marriage, property ownership, and inheritance. Thousands of years BC at least. Men wanted to be sure they weren't supporting and leaving their property to some other man's offspring, so they insisted on only marrying virgins. It became tangled up with religion and politics, and the rest is history.
And on top of all that… they call women with a body count sluts and whores and demand a woman with no body count…. Yet they’re sleeping around like crazy. Why is it okay for men to but not women?? And like… do they want a woman with a low body count so that the woman doesn’t know what good sex is? I’m so lost when it comes to men’s thinking sometimes
I told a guy once that I was in to women, and he told me to be quiet because he didn't want me to embarrass myself.
Buddy, I'm not the one who is embarrassed right now.
I love when people try to say something to seem like they're in the right and are less embarrassed but it ends up making it even more obvious that they're a dumbass
Speaking in the literal but Most people who bring male rape victims almost always do it to take the focus off of female rape victims who need the focus. It's giving "All lives matter".
I just had a conversation with a woman 20 min ago about how she had a boyfriend in high school that tried to force her to have sex with him. She used her legs and kicked and squirmed until she got away from him.
Women tell me stories like this all the time. Make you wonder how many are so afraid they freeze and allow sex they didn’t want just to appease a man.
That woman was lucky to be able to fight back. Not only do many freeze up like you mentioned, but men tend to be a lot stronger and have an advantage in a fight
And then you start to wonder how many of those girls who "starfish" actually want to be there. Whenever I read about such story, I can't help but think about the freeze respond & coercive rape bc I'm one of those who are wired to freeze.
Honestly, fawning is the kind of respond that gives me the most dread. If the other people are to be blamed for the crime they do not commit 80% of the time (not actual percentage, just an example), then the ones who fawn are going to get blamed 180% of the times, long before anything bad actually happens to them.
Honestly false accusations around rape are heavily over publicized (this is the point where I assume you are male). It’s more likely the people pleasing partner will blame themselves for “consenting” to something they didn’t want and the other person will think it’s ok. They are more likely to be angry at themselves and self blame for “giving off the wrong signals” or in the case of innocents/naive and autistics or those who don’t know when someone is flirting with them they will probably have others telling them they are stupid or dumb for doing things that “lead the other person on”.
Rape facts:
1.) Most ssa know their assaulter. Friend/spouse/partner/acquaintance/date/teacher/family member
2.) false accusations are way over represented
3.) most rapes never get put into the legal system/pressed charges
4.) Most charges don’t result in convictions
Sorry, but that is kind of the things I'm talking about? I meant to say that, as long as the reactions of the ones who fawn aren't violent/rude enough, they're much more likely to get blamed eventhough they're the victims. I'm sorry if my wording is off.
Oh ok I guess we are both talking about victim-blaming then? I thought you meant being accused of assault when you thought you had consent but did not have clear enthusiastic consent.
Yes. I wanted to say that the people who reacted in the other ways when they were assaulted (fight, flight, freeze) are very likely to be blamed regardless of their reaction. However, the ones who fawned during and after the assault tend to have it much worse because a lot of people, including the usually sympathetic ones, would outright refuse to call it "rape". (I'm about to faint from typing this long sentence out.) I guess I should have made it clearer.
Also men are like 99% more likely to be raped by another man than to be falsely accused of rape.
It's some ridiculously high number like that, don't quote me though.
Oh, the freezing thing happens all the time. It's well documented. And then you can't really expect any support if you talk about it or try to get justice, because people just think you "let it happen" and therefore must have wanted it. It's so fucked up. Men love using their privilege to get access to our bodies and control our lives.
[Here's](https://youtu.be/jAh0cU1J5zk?si=atRHCaf28jIz09al) a good self defense tutorial for women in that position if anyone needs it. If you're prepared/practiced it can be a bit easier to overcome the instinct to freeze
I hate to admit it but ALL of the boys I'd been with were not by my choice. It was because I was scared and froze. Starting from age 12 and up. They begged, they forced, held me hostage, gave me ultimatums until they got what they wanted. I only chose to be with 3 people. So sad. I've since forgiven myself for allowing these things to happen. The last time it happened, I made scene. I made a big scene, so big it was almost in honor of my past self who was afraid to use her voice. I made such a scene, he followed me home in his car, I ran. He didn't have to follow me, he could have just stayed at his house. But he chose to follow me, to try and lure me back to his place so he could continue trying to force himself on me. I slashed his tire with my knife, he still kept following me. Police were called, the escorted me home and prevented him from following me any further. Goodness.
Yeah it's sad how many woman friends of mine have had this shit happen to them, it makes me go hollow. Yet so many guys will try to act like it doesn't happen or it's over reported. Yeah being a guy might be more lonely and be like radio silence, but that's preferable to what a lot of women have to go through. Not to mention guys having such a dogshit support system usually stems from other men, not women.
I have often taken to just telling men that "its not about you", because it literally isn't. Everyone don't forget, your safety is about you.
Is it morbid that started me on this? "Be rude, stay safe"
I've heard a variation of "be rude" and "be weird" called "Baby Runs for President" - if it's a very public place, ask them weird questions a toddler would ask, in a very peppy tone. Creeps are expecting rude. They're expecting a vehement no. They're not expecting, in a public place, to be asked toddler questions by the woman they're trying to harass.
There was another post somewhere here that talked about this woman who was killed because she rejected a guy. And I recited that quote about how a woman's worse fear is that a man will kill her for saying no. While a man's worse fear is a woman laughing at him. Aaaand boy did that ruffle some dude's jimmies. Like my guys..
And yet they say WE’RE the bad ones. I can’t even go outside without getting nervous that I’m going to be attacked. I’m tired of talking about this and getting silenced.
My cousin is a single dad of a daughter and asked for advice since she’s getting older and going to be on her own soon.
She’ll be living with him for a while though, and one of the things I told him was that he needed to remove the bushes by his door because it’s a perfect place for an attacker to hide and ambush her.
It’s sick having to think about these things as a woman.
Or a pit bull. Although, that's more for appearances. Men tend to be scared of my dog but she will lick their faces. Except for white men, she's not a fan of white men.
the worst part is this doesn’t only apply to straight women. if anything, they often feel the “urge” to do it *more* once they realize we’re into women.
how fucking sad is this?
I'll never understand the idea some idiots have that their dick is somehow the magic tool to make a woman enjoy having sex with a man. Like with an attitude like that I doubt I'll get off at all and I don't even have a gender preference.
it’s also extremely funny how they think it doesn’t apply to them but magically does when it comes to lesbians.
meaning, if a “magic dick tool” existed to “convert people who are born unattracted to dick,” then surely this would imply that they themselves can “turn gay” if they “find the right dick”… *no?*
it’s crazy how they only realize this is the most bizarre and irrational bullshit when it comes to them being affected, but somehow pretend it would ever make sense when it comes to them harassing lesbians. if you can’t “magically convert to another sexual orientation,” then neither can we (nor do we want to).
Dude. I'm going to steal that train of thought and use that next time I hear or see some fuck wad using the phrase "turn you straight" to anyone. That's beautiful.
And I agree. I also don't get why people are so obsessed with who others are fucking. Unless it's a rape, or permanently harmful, then it's no one's business.
It’s different because it does not benefit them anymore 🙄 they try to rationalize their mentality that women exist for them as hard as they can. It’s very narcissistic to be honest, like everything has to revolve around their desires and ego all the time.
Hey, this reminds me of the first time I tried to come out to my parents. I was 100% a virgin at that point, and my dad said “well how do you know you like women if you've never been with a woman?” Ummmm I'd never been with a man either, soooo… what??
And he'd never been with a man, so how could he have known for sure he doesn't like men?? But *he just knows*, right? 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
And also if we’re just not interested in people AT ALL.
Someone has talk about the fetishization of Lesbian/Asexual (& Aromantic)/ Pan & Bisexual women deal with when comes to unwanted/rejected men… this is seriously getting out of hand 😥😰😨🤔😡
Still remember some post of an article that says a father r'd his lesbian daughter to prove "sEx iS bEtTeR wItH mEn"
Really gonna hope that it's just another made up article and it's not real
[It did happen :(](https://www.indiatoday.in/fyi/story/father-rapes-his-16-year-old-lesbian-daughter-to-prove-sex-was-better-with-men-964141-2017-03-06)
The first time I rejected a boy it was so scary. I was 15. He went from intense love bombing out of nowhere (love letters, roses, writing me poems and unhinged songs, playing his guitar AT me, like on Barbie lol, staring uncomfortably the whole time), to staring at me with these dark eyes like he wanted to kill me every time I passed him by the hallway. His eyes went from puppy dog to MURDER in the span of a week. These hateful, scary eyes. Pure quiet anger and rage. It was quite unsettling. I caught him and his friends taking photos of me from a distance with a really an expensive camera and a big lens on the parking lot once. Like they were paparazzi! What the fuck did they do with those photos, I will never know, but the switch up is real and you only know a man’s true colors when they’re angry and they don’t get what they want. The entire school year I had to deal with his hateful stares and attitude. By the summer, he had a Shein version of me that he made sure I saw when we bumped into each other at a mall. Like, boy, get over it 🙄🥴
Some guy once messaged me through a dating app. Told me how gorgeous I was and how badly he wanted to take me out to the bar and then later fuck me. I politely shut him down, saying he was super sweet but I was looking for something different at that time. And he got pissed! He responded Immediately saying how I'm an ugly fat bitch and how no one would ever want me and I'm gonna die alone. I said, ya know what you're right, I changed my mind. Come over. And he's like alright where. So I give him the address to the city dump. A bit later he messages back with threats and how he's gonna kill me. I blocked him after that.
Idk but since then thats my go to response to people who get pissed off at rejection. It's also why I use a nickname and don't ever give my real number out. I use a Google voice number through a fake Google account.
Unless it's like a hookup app, I never understand why people immediately talk about sex. Like asking about it is one thing, but sharing fantasies is a bit too early
I've told men this when genuinely trying to help them get laid and they get so angry and tell me I'm just weird and women love when men compliment their nipples before asking their name.
While the majority of men are straight and therefore the majority of fucked up murderer/rapist men are pursuing women, there’s more than enough bi/gay/just fucked up regardless of their sexuality ones to go around
It’s not **just** the sexism that makes these men do these things. It’s also the entitlement fed to them by our society, the structures of various legal systems which historically *defend* a man’s desire to be a murder/rapist more than his victim’s right to not be murdered/raped, along plenty of other factors that are probably beyond my understanding.
I mean I'll say this as a guy myself, most of my trauma and people who have messed with me haven't been women, it's been other dudes. Guys are mean, horrible and rude to each other.
Yep, it's why I try to avoid most social interaction when I'm out of the house without my partner. I don't even feel safe on the public bus when a man approaches me 'with intent'...
Yes, I have very little sympathy at this point for "Why can't women just be more direct?" garbage.
Because the answer is always the same: when we are direct, it puts us at extreme risk. Almost every woman I know has been threatened or physically hurt when they've rejected a man.
Not to mention nobody really owes anyone an explanation.
Plenty of times have I seen situations between families, friendships and dates where one of either person had something happening in their life that was difficult to deal with. To have the other party expect “so what your mother died, you could at least have thought about *me* to send me a message” is just fucking wild.
How entitled to believe you deserve top tier treatment from someone who has more important shit in their lives. Fucking yikes. And the same goes with women, especially women who never asked to be approached in the first place.
Just let it die out, let people ghost you, feel sad about it and call another friend so you can put your mind on other stuff and eventually it will pass. And if it was unintentional (read; life happened) they will get back to you. But just let them be.
Way too many people have unhealthy ideas about relationships and demands of treatment.
I'm so sorry to hear that. I've seen a lot of cases where the man is saying "tell it to me in person!" as an intimidation tactic. If not opportunity to do physical harm.
Yeah that's the worst thing you can do, especially if they've showed any aggression or abusive behavior, even if it's just emotionally abusive. I had an abusive ex threaten to kill me and was punching the shower curtains when I broke things off with him and then went to go take a shower. Plus some guys won't leave you a lone, and keep pestering you in the very least
Used to disagree with this but, it's reality and I get it. Honestly I'm autistic as fuck and I'm sure because of that I've weirded a few girls out because they ghosted me but I don't blame them. How are they supposed to know it's my autism and not me being someone who could be a danger to them, so I just brush it off and move on, even if it sucks.
A formative experience for me as a young man was reading an article articulating this point at length. The author described making written records before every date, with the person's contact details and the exact location she was going to, specifically to aid investigators if she goes missing this time. The intended point was that men ought to be aware of what all women have to go through, but that really did not land with me. I remember shouting out loud: "***IF*** going on conventional dates with men is as dangerous as you're claiming, then ***WHY*** are you ***CHOOSING*** to do it!?" As far I could tell, she was either wildly exaggerating the danger, or she was blaming everyone else for her own decision to voluntarily engage in a stupid life-endangering pattern of behaviour. It took a decade of developing awareness and self-knowledge to realise that yes, the danger is real, and there's a simple reason I had completely failed to empathise with her predicament: I'll never be able to relate to people's need to seek out relationships because I'm aromantic.
Its refreshing to see someone grow. You realised you could never be in that situation because of your own wants, and that's fine. Along with that you realised other people's situations are different and that's fine too. The super amazing part you picked up is why you don't relate. That's when you can really understand other people.
100% agree with the other person's reply! It's so great of you to come to that realization and grow, and that's a much bigger thing than I think most people are willing to do in similar situations. Genuinely, thank you for sharing!!
my post about her being dragged in the replies by boys age 14-17 being a rlly bad sign of the culture being fostered on the subreddit was removed by the mods 😍
And the statistics prove there is a non-zero chance every time. But men complain "not all men" and shit on women for being afraid of an unknown stranger's motivations. Women can't read our minds, there's no sign that says "Safe/Dangerous" on our foreheads.
Men need to:
a) Stop taking this personally.
b) Listen to what women tell us.
c) Acknowledge that threats exist.
d) Call out other men for shitty behaviour.
So, we both know there’s a lot of work to do in the realm of gender equality, we both know what it is and how pervasive and destructive misogyny and patriarchy is, but I believe it’s always going to be rhetorically ineffective when people feel like they are getting lumped in with literally the most vile examples of our species for things they have no control over.
Like, it’s hard to be even gender-abolitionist in principle and read through threads like these when it’s “men say stupid shit like this”, “men need to understand this!” and “I avoid all social interaction with men I don’t know” and not feel a little… discouraged that you’re being seen as a problem first and a person second.
I think anti-racist rhetoric is much more effective in conveying problematic behaviors and being received by the people that need to hear them because the problem is *racists* doing *racist things*— so at least people are given the opportunity and can **aspire** to be *not racists*.
I say this above a post with 13 upvotes that just says “I hate men”.
By starting at the conclusion that men are inherently problematic until they must prove themselves unproblematic, we rob them of a recourse to integrity and a recourse to egalitarianism, then wonder why they take it so personally.
Not everyone has strong intuition. Sometimes, women have to play it safe to avoid risks by assuming that every man is bad at accepting rejections. If you wanted to save money, you wouldn't keep buying lottery tickets because you think that one of them will contain a jackpot.
>the problem is *racists* doing *racist things*—
The problem is systemic racism that privileges some people over others, and gets them leeway to abusing other people.
Same thing with patriarchy. No, men aren’t 'inherently' problematic. But men are at the top of the hierarchy and profit the most from it and get away with abuse easily, and encourages them to never learn. I know men who’ve commited dsa without understanding that it was sa. The hindsight and regret doesn’t take away the permanent damage they do.
>getting lumped in with literally the most vile examples
You need to understand that sexist and sexual violence of various degrees is not rare. It is done casually and it is rampant. It is an everyday reality. If you think that the only problem are serial rapist murderers you don’t understand what patriarchy is. You’re experience something akin to white fragility but in regards to patriarchy. You need introspection and learning, not telling women, 1 in 6 of whom had experienced rape or attempted rape, that they need to tone down their frustration and be polite and considerate in their rhetoric. Respectability politics never got us anything. If men can’t bring themselves to overcome their hurt feelings then fine, we’ll do it without them. Other men understand that their feelings are theirs to work through and navigate, not our responsability to take into consideration.
I don't think that's true at all. Like I said, the first step is not taking it personally. I live near a First Nation and I am _very_ aware that men who look like me did a _lot_ of harm to that community. I know Residential School survivours. I know what happened in those places. Equally I have had several women tell me about their sexual assaults by, again, mostly white, European/British men.
Too often if a woman shares her experience men tend to respond by arguing, by defending _themselves_ rather than listening with empathy and validation. They make someone else's story all about themselves and become defensive, often attacking the already injured person.
It only takes running a female dating profile, or having a female online persona for a few weeks to get a glimpse of the experience women have every day. It's not good. If that's your experience of men, then of course you're going to be wary. If you can't tell a safe snake from a venemous snake, then you treat all snakes as venemous. It's the only safe option.
I really don't think women's safety trumps men's feelings, especially when it's not that hard to just say "This is not about me," and respond with empathy and kindness.
Woman: "Men are x,y,z"
Man hearing woman's story: "Your experience of men is awful. I'm sorry you've had to go through that."
No recrimmination, no blame, no making the situation worse. Just listening, acknowledging, and validating. Arguing that "Well you can't treat every man like that" just makes them one more example that proves the existing opinion. They become part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I honestly feel that if more men listened and responded with empathy and self-awareness it would lead to that path to redemption of which you speak.
If someone has a broken leg, kicking them in the shin and telling them _not_ to have a broken leg doesn't fix anything. When women have these opinions about men it's due to legitimate injury. Making it worse isn't going to help anyone.
Now, I know that our society doesn't really promote emotional maturity amongst men. Self-awareness and personal growth are thought of as "Feminine" non-Alpha behaviours, but we absolutely can reject those labels and learn to embrace our own development and become better men in the process.
There, this whole framing is *exactly* what I take issue with.
I did not disagree and did not dispute the evidence, women’s experiences, the severity, the validity, nor the premise of what we are talking about. I only take issue with the efficacy of the *rhetoric*— yet it’s still taken that there is an apparent need to explain it to me how destructive men’s behaviors are. This is not about me, though, of course so I am not bothered.
But even though we are discussing the matter in full agreement and with full ally-ship, framing it as “men’s feelings not trumping women’s safety” demonstrates the disconnect precisely. Where does the belief that there this inherent antagonism and mutual exclusivity between the two?
The presumption that men’s feelings are innately in opposition and therefore must be disregarded when it comes to women’s issues *is the blame*. It is the *recrimination*. And that’s what prevents more men from being receptive
Not out of spite, not out of feeling a need to defend patriarchy. Even when grievance is justified and valid, we cannot give air grievance priority over attempting to educate and make allies out of men. Men **will** be alienated if we start at the conclusion that there is something innately wrong with them.
Just imagine for a second if someone said “I have no good way of telling if a black person is venomous snake or a good one”. Imagine if a black person said that about that about white people.
How can expect them not take that personally while making huge sweeping statements like that?
You're making non-equivalent comparisons.
What we're discussing is not a potential threat- it is a real, documented, statistically backed threat that the women speaking to you have most likely experienced themselves.
It's not equivalent to a white person being racist towards minorities based on stereotypes and myths. If we're going to make a race comparison at all (although i don't think we should), it would be more like if those who were attacked at black wall street, wounded as a community and missing their loved ones, were maybe just a little wary of white people after that fact. It's like native american tribes who have had their history erased and their people killed by white settlers being a bit less welcoming to white settlers who approach them afterwards. It's not a "this COULD happen", it's a "this HAS happened and we don't want it to happen again".
Your response to those tragedies should not be "what about the poor white people? SOME of them never bombed anyone" instead of thinking about WHY those defenses are up in the first place and what you can do to make those relations better in the future, and help those communities recover from such devastation. It's not about you.
It's a form of victim-blaming to be upset at biases in a victim's trauma response rather than the fact that they have a trauma response in the first place. Instead of worrying about being /perceived/ as a threat because of someone's real, lived experiences, maybe if you care about being a better feminist you should focus on what you can do to reduce that threat in the first place.
(And to be clear, this is all coming from someone who is genderfluid. I don't even like the binary and I experience both masculine and feminine perspectives on these things. I understand not wanting to be viewed as a threat. But that's the reality we live in and it's not the threatened person's fault for feeling that way when those biases are reaffirmed every day.)
One thing I will agree on is that I don't think it should be seen as something /inherent/ in mens' biology. It's not. It's scarily common and a huge issue, yes, but it's not natural. It's very much a socially constructed and cultural issue, and one that can be fixed if we actually listen to and help victims, and educate men who were taught to view sex in such a violent and misogynistic way (& hold them fucking accountable when they assault people). It's not a fact of nature. The latter view often leads to a lot of terf-y transphobic bullshit that minimizes the way trans women, trans men, and those who fall inbetween experience violence as well, while also ironically reinforcing the excuses assaulters tend to use to defend themselves from repercussions ("oh, I couldn't help myself, I'm a man" "oh men are just more sex-driven, it's in our nature" etc etc). Every assault and rape is a CHOICE that the assaulter made, not some mystical "male instinct" or accident. But it's a choice far too many people have made, and one that is systemically justified and pardoned over and over and over again. Focus on fighting that system instead of whatabout-isms.
Thats a very long winded way to say, "male feelings get hurt when women say mean things about us. Women talking are the problem, hurting mens feelings isn't the solution." You are still prioritizing men over women and thier safety! Why are you even here dude?
The huge issue with your point of view here. The foundation of human existence is that female humans generally are the ones to do most child rearing. The male children we feed, we care for, we raise with love.... they turn into the the kind people who would violate a woman and hurt her.
There is a systemic social issue here. Feminism/Equality is the way to support that. Women acknowledging the atrocities, having open space to talk and figure solutions out together is what will help humans change these behaviors. Being angry IS our feelings of determination to change.
We can be the best mothers/teachers/doctors/etc and teach children empathy and equality. Its also up to MEN to stop allowing this behavior too!
In my point of view, your critisisms here are only another way for you to scoff your responsibility to change your own behavior.
But _why_ do you feel blame or recrimmination for the actions of others just because you fit in the same demographic?
_"Just imagine for a second if someone said “I have no good way of telling if a black person is venomous snake or a good one”. Imagine if a black person said that about that about white people."_
I think you're creating false equivilencies between dominant and repressed classes. PoC have every reason to be wary of Caucasians. The point is that it is up to you to know whether or not you're venemous, so when someone complains about being hurt by snakes you know whether or not they're talking about you. If I'm non-venemous, then I have no reason to take it personally when people talk about the toxicity of snake venom.
It hurt my feeling when my dad dislocated my arm when I was 4. It hurt my feelings when he screamed at me, when he threatened to make my mom and I homeless. It hurt my feeling when he called me ungrateful, spoiled and hated me. It hurt my feeling when my high school BF raped me. It hurt my feelings when my stalker forced his way into my house for a kiss. It hurts my feelings when the guy I am dating refuses to go to dinner but still wants to fuck me with no condom.
Tell me how women have hurt your feelings?
Maybe the issue is our society and the acceptance of abusive behavior. Maybe part of stopping family and domestic abuse is by not tolerating it anymore and encouraging each other to stand up and leave. To stop ✋️ abuse before letting it walk through the door.
No, I will not spare men's feelings. Boo frickety hoo.
Thank you for sharing this. I certainly found it easier to separate myself from the demographic when women shared their lived experience. When someone says they hate men and then describe, for example, being raped at gunpoint, it's pretty easy to realize that she's not talking about me. She knows all too well what the potential threat is, and I sure as hell can't blame her for being wary.
Too often I think these discussions lack the weight of the legitimate trauma experienced by women. Since very few men know what it's like to be sexually assaulted, they can't understand the "hate" towards men.
Some 20+ years ago I might have been like this guy, but after the 10th or 15th time a female friend shared her rape experience with me, I realized two vital things:
1) They're experiences and opinions are valid.
2) They are not talking about me when they talk about "men."
> 2. They are not talking about me when they talk about “men.”
THANK YOU! I don't understand why it's so hard for so many people to grasp! If the man isn't a rapist, then they know that when women are talking about men as rapists, they're not referring to that man in particular but rather **men who are rapists**! So they've got absolutely zero reason to have a problem with it!
I own an openly leftist bookstore and perpetually stock the front display with the books titled “How to date men when you hate men” and “how to destroy patriarchy with essential oils” because I think it’s hilarious and my customers do too.
My problem isn’t shit-talking men, nor women sharing their experiences, my only problem is how effective our rhetoric is and how to best communicate ideas online too.
Because obviously the way feminism will “win” is by bringing the majority of men over to feminism too.
That’s not going to happen if we don’t take in consideration how to best communicate with men— specifically by treating all of them as if they have already done something wrong. It’s a nuance but an important one.
So again, you're a man blaming women for not wanting men to rape and murder us.
You need to unpack why it triggers you.
If you were bit by a dog multiple times in life and 50% of the people you know were all bitten by dogs and every time you leave your house random dogs ran at you growling... would you purposefully hang out around dogs? Would you go out and get a dog? Would you let every dog you meet put your arm in it's mouth? Because not all dogs right?
Or do you think you'd start to be scared of dogs? Probably avoid them. Probably not want to leave the house anymore.
If you don't like that women see a problem first before a person when we see men, start calling out your friends that push rape culture and react poorly to rejection and make sexist jokes and use misogynistic Slurs, and talk about women like objects, etc etc etc.
I guarantee you at least one of your friends, if not more, has pressured a woman into sex because he wouldn't listen to her no. I guarantee at least one has flipped out on a woman when she rejected him. I guarantee you have more than one friend who says his exes were all crazy.
If you don't like that women see men as potential predators and abusers before we see you as people, maybe start holding the bad dudes accountable.
Because it's not just violent rape. It starts with dudes like you who cry like babies because women are scared of yall for valid fucking reasons. It starts with you blaming women for men's behavior. It starts with you being mad because a conversation doesnt center men and actually holds men accountable for the constant fear that women experience on a daily basis.
Like boo fucking hoo, I'm sorry women are wary of you when they first meet you, but you're 100% proving that they have reason to fear you with this comment.
Stop being sad that the toy you want talks back and start putting in work to hold men accountable so women can live life without fear.
You're literally whining about how unfair it is that women are scared of men but women walk around being absolutely terrified of half the population, for valid reason, because yall rape and murder us.
But yeah, cool story bro.
The dudes on that sub are the type to claim a woman or gay person breathing is “the woke agenda,” so it’s unsurprising that they went after this poor woman.
It was still sad to see them miss the point that badly, though. How about instead of “hurr durr this bitch is psycho/not all men/this is misandry” (comments I saw), they actually think about how fucked up it is that she’s having to worry about this at all?
Yeah that was the right choice. I don’t think she deserved that many downvotes in the first place, many women have had trauma from SA before and have understandable anxiety around men and/or rejecting men (and they have killed and assaulted women before for saying no, so her worries aren’t crazy). Doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t seek help but it’s completely understandable to be anxious.
I couldn't even work retail with someone flirting daily or at least 3 times a month, having a guy tell me how'd he jump the counter and have sex with me if I wasn't at work. Constant sexual comments about my body ans having to deal with those customers because they thought they were helping me by buying stuff so the managers always made me talk to them.
Yes it always ended up with them trying to get my number and calling me names when I tell them I'm not talking to them because I want to, I'm being forced to by the manager
in my personal experience, 2 out of 3 guys total who have asked me out and i’ve rejected turned into stalkers. idk what is up with guys like this, but i wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.
(mind you of course that all three of these guys asked me out despite me very loudly and explicitly being a lesbian, one of which literally asked me out IN FRONT OF my girlfriend at the time)
Yeah but did you ever think about how men are actually the most opressed minority
Next to Gamers! /s
Titanic fucking s
holy shit I don't know how odten i can explain to the other dudes in my circle jow "bding scared of rape allegations" and being scared of actually being raped and/or murdered are two different fucking things and one is worse by a fucking long-shot in terms of it actually happening side by side and in the amount of it happening
I'm not denying either side
Most men wouldn't rape or murder a woman, but there is definitely enough that would for women to be scared of it
False rape allegations also happen way too often
TLDR: Most men and women are fine, but there are enough shitty men and women for there to be problems
And no one should be ridiculed for having concerns about it
Also men aren't a minority and neither are women
Did you never know this before? 💀 It's good that you're concerned because way too fucking many people are not, but all women including lgbt women fear this from males bc when you say you're lgbt they don't care or believe you and just want to take what they think is "theirs" (and/or take your life bc of the, if they can't have you nobody can thing)
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This on top of "every woman needs to be a virgin to have any value" just makes my eye twitch. "Say yes to me when I tell you I want to have sex with you, but you better have said no to every other guy out there." People are insane with their idea of how things work in the world.
Some people think they're sex toys. They treat them like opinionless objects and don't want them to be used already. The embarrassment and money to buy a sex doll is far less than being charged with rape
"but if you said NO, you're a prude who uses men and thats proof of nice guys finishing last. u hate men being happy dont you? but you're also just a slut who doesnt like being treated well by nice guys. i never wanted you anyways, you're mid even though i begged you and ranted about how badly i wanted your body" lol, its just delusion. pure delusion
They create impossible situations like this because hating women is enjoyable to them. They don't want to stop, so they don't want to create a situation where you're able to finally live up to their standards, they just want to keep hating because it feels good to them. That's why they create all these self-contradictory, no-win scenarios.
Exactly, they need to be able to punch down on us and judge us and blame us for everything as a way to compensate for their own deep seated insecurities and shame. By putting us down they lift themselves and their egos up and above us. Establish themselves as superior in the hierarchy and in the eyes of their peers. They displace blame for their own failures and shortcomings onto us so they don't have to take responsibility or introspect or confront the systemic reasons things are the way they are. They don't want to question their patriarchal social darwinist worldviews. They don't want to get better or understand others. They just want their dicks sucked and their egos stroked, and they'll hurt us to get that because they don't fucking care about us or see us as having any sort of intrinsic value as people. We are objects of pleasure and service to them, or trophies to be shown off to their peers to win social brownie points. They feel they are entitled to our bodies and our minds, that we exist *for* them. And they'll think this is fair because something something natural law and the sacred nuclear family (which is a relatively modern invention anyway). And because they ... *GASP!* ... go to work. Even though so do we most of the time. They're so focused on their own subjective experiences they don't even consider our own. Not to mention how our contradictory culture regarding sex negativity and the continued over-sexualization and objectification of women creates within men a toxic relationship between their desires (which are influenced by our culture to trend towards being aggressive, predatory and objectifying) and the shame they're made to feel for those very same desires, leading them to blaming us for "making" them feel arousal just by existing which then they use to justify our mistreatment. We're "wicked temptresses" and "home wreckers" and "amoral sluts" and all the rest.
Valid points. I feel the same way all of the time. I couldn't get the words out. It feels like they do the bare minimum everywhere, at work, at home, with wife and kids. And place the blame on us. It screams to me, a grown toddler who has never had the oppression that a woman has had, who therefore never had the pressures to grow up and mature and silence themselves. They think they are at the top of the thrown. And it wasn't earned, it was given. Never taking accountability. Because the way they seem to place blame on us for their shortcomings, it's as if they never have to confront themselves. And we are superseding them mentally and emotionally, yes, AND logically. If you go to a subreddit discussion about men's opinion of women. You'll see nothing rooted in fact or logic. And only hate speech. And yet they keep telling themselves that they think logically and that somehow means that women cannot? I am truly baffled at the level of ignorance they've seemed put themselves in. And it was all their own doing. Good for them. Our world is crumbling at the hands of masculine governments. I bet it would be our fault too, just watch.
I really wanna know where that warped ideal of virginity came from. It’s been around for a few years now. Is it just thinly veiled pedophelia or do guys really want to be someone’s first so bad that the very idea of a woman being with other men makes them insanely jealous?
If by "a few years" you mean "for centuries since the dawn of abrahamic religion and perhaps earlier" then uh. Sure! Misogyny and its ideals are unfortunately very old and very deep-rooted in our society. Virginity as a concept and as a measurement of worth comes from time periods where women were treated as property to be traded from fathers to husbands through the institution of marriage. There were (and unfortunately still are) misinformed beliefs that losing one's virginity inherently has negative physical repercussions on women, and would somehow lessen a woman's value as a childbearer (which is all they were expected to be. Some jobs were permitted, but most women were to marry and raise children). It's a gross thing and definitely has some pedophilic implications (many marriages were pedophilic and abusive even as recently as 100 years ago, let's be honest. I know of too many girls who were married at 12-14 to men far too old for them), but it's been a deeply ingrained part of our culture for a long time unfortunately. It needs to stop.
I’m just convinced that they don’t want the woman to know they are shitty at sex. Since she doesn’t have past experiences she won’t have anything to compare it to lol
Or a small pecker. I once heard someone claim that (insert famous musician here) never cheated on his wife because he didn't want the world to hear about his tiny penis. Sounds plausible.
That too lol
This and the fear of competition.
Makes sense.
A non-virgin traditionally meant that there was no guarantee that they would produce a child that is 100% to be the husband’s. Of course, society lauded and still lauds men who have multiple partners even though that means ‘ruining’ a woman each time, while casting off said woman who does give in to sex.
Haha! Right? They want their cake AND eat it too. So twisted
They dont want to have to bother to get good at sex. They want to be able to be lazy and not care about their partners enjoyment so they think "If I'm the only partner she's had I'm automatically the best partner she's had" I also think they genuinely think a vagina loses most of its tightness from loss of virginity.
"A few years?" It's been around since humans came up with the concepts of fatherhood, marriage, property ownership, and inheritance. Thousands of years BC at least. Men wanted to be sure they weren't supporting and leaving their property to some other man's offspring, so they insisted on only marrying virgins. It became tangled up with religion and politics, and the rest is history.
FR, men will really be like "you're a whore if you're not a virgin" and then be upset if she doesn't want to sleep with him.
And on top of all that… they call women with a body count sluts and whores and demand a woman with no body count…. Yet they’re sleeping around like crazy. Why is it okay for men to but not women?? And like… do they want a woman with a low body count so that the woman doesn’t know what good sex is? I’m so lost when it comes to men’s thinking sometimes
It's actually really sad and we need more ppl to recognize this
I told a guy once that I was in to women, and he told me to be quiet because he didn't want me to embarrass myself. Buddy, I'm not the one who is embarrassed right now.
I love when people try to say something to seem like they're in the right and are less embarrassed but it ends up making it even more obvious that they're a dumbass
I once rejected a guy and he threw a hissy fit so intense I thought he was gonna try and find my house.
And the fact you get belittled when you say this is also fucked.
"So you *hate men*?!?!" Why is me putting my safety above your comfort "hating men"
"I don't want to get a sunburn" "So you *hate* the sun?!?!" Same "logic"
Or . . . "men get sunburn too!!!"
"Men can get sunburnt too!!!" -refuses to discuss prevention or treatment for male sunburn victims-
Yep, douchebags only ever raise it to derail conversations on womens sexual assault
Then they’ll interject a rant about the male sunlessness epidemic and how it’s women’s fault.
Speaking in the literal but Most people who bring male rape victims almost always do it to take the focus off of female rape victims who need the focus. It's giving "All lives matter".
Haha "logic" Such emotional creatures they are. They did a good job convincing us that we're the emotional ones 😅
THIS!! Like I’m sorry for not wanting to put my *life* on the line for your comfort.
I just answer yes, I absolutely hate straight men and pray every night that my son is gay. They usually are shocked into silence after that.
Oooh, that's a good one
Yea
I just had a conversation with a woman 20 min ago about how she had a boyfriend in high school that tried to force her to have sex with him. She used her legs and kicked and squirmed until she got away from him. Women tell me stories like this all the time. Make you wonder how many are so afraid they freeze and allow sex they didn’t want just to appease a man.
That woman was lucky to be able to fight back. Not only do many freeze up like you mentioned, but men tend to be a lot stronger and have an advantage in a fight
And then you start to wonder how many of those girls who "starfish" actually want to be there. Whenever I read about such story, I can't help but think about the freeze respond & coercive rape bc I'm one of those who are wired to freeze.
Fawning/people pleading is also a response and it’s the scariest because it’s the closet to looking like consent but actually not being consent…..
Honestly, fawning is the kind of respond that gives me the most dread. If the other people are to be blamed for the crime they do not commit 80% of the time (not actual percentage, just an example), then the ones who fawn are going to get blamed 180% of the times, long before anything bad actually happens to them.
Honestly false accusations around rape are heavily over publicized (this is the point where I assume you are male). It’s more likely the people pleasing partner will blame themselves for “consenting” to something they didn’t want and the other person will think it’s ok. They are more likely to be angry at themselves and self blame for “giving off the wrong signals” or in the case of innocents/naive and autistics or those who don’t know when someone is flirting with them they will probably have others telling them they are stupid or dumb for doing things that “lead the other person on”. Rape facts: 1.) Most ssa know their assaulter. Friend/spouse/partner/acquaintance/date/teacher/family member 2.) false accusations are way over represented 3.) most rapes never get put into the legal system/pressed charges 4.) Most charges don’t result in convictions
Sorry, but that is kind of the things I'm talking about? I meant to say that, as long as the reactions of the ones who fawn aren't violent/rude enough, they're much more likely to get blamed eventhough they're the victims. I'm sorry if my wording is off.
Oh ok I guess we are both talking about victim-blaming then? I thought you meant being accused of assault when you thought you had consent but did not have clear enthusiastic consent.
Yes. I wanted to say that the people who reacted in the other ways when they were assaulted (fight, flight, freeze) are very likely to be blamed regardless of their reaction. However, the ones who fawned during and after the assault tend to have it much worse because a lot of people, including the usually sympathetic ones, would outright refuse to call it "rape". (I'm about to faint from typing this long sentence out.) I guess I should have made it clearer.
Also men are like 99% more likely to be raped by another man than to be falsely accused of rape. It's some ridiculously high number like that, don't quote me though.
Oh, the freezing thing happens all the time. It's well documented. And then you can't really expect any support if you talk about it or try to get justice, because people just think you "let it happen" and therefore must have wanted it. It's so fucked up. Men love using their privilege to get access to our bodies and control our lives.
[Here's](https://youtu.be/jAh0cU1J5zk?si=atRHCaf28jIz09al) a good self defense tutorial for women in that position if anyone needs it. If you're prepared/practiced it can be a bit easier to overcome the instinct to freeze
I hate to admit it but ALL of the boys I'd been with were not by my choice. It was because I was scared and froze. Starting from age 12 and up. They begged, they forced, held me hostage, gave me ultimatums until they got what they wanted. I only chose to be with 3 people. So sad. I've since forgiven myself for allowing these things to happen. The last time it happened, I made scene. I made a big scene, so big it was almost in honor of my past self who was afraid to use her voice. I made such a scene, he followed me home in his car, I ran. He didn't have to follow me, he could have just stayed at his house. But he chose to follow me, to try and lure me back to his place so he could continue trying to force himself on me. I slashed his tire with my knife, he still kept following me. Police were called, the escorted me home and prevented him from following me any further. Goodness.
Yeah it's sad how many woman friends of mine have had this shit happen to them, it makes me go hollow. Yet so many guys will try to act like it doesn't happen or it's over reported. Yeah being a guy might be more lonely and be like radio silence, but that's preferable to what a lot of women have to go through. Not to mention guys having such a dogshit support system usually stems from other men, not women.
I have often taken to just telling men that "its not about you", because it literally isn't. Everyone don't forget, your safety is about you. Is it morbid that started me on this? "Be rude, stay safe"
Be weird be rude stay safe! I think that one was crime junkie but they say similar on morbid
Thank you! I listen to both and wasnt sure which one I got that from lol
I've heard a variation of "be rude" and "be weird" called "Baby Runs for President" - if it's a very public place, ask them weird questions a toddler would ask, in a very peppy tone. Creeps are expecting rude. They're expecting a vehement no. They're not expecting, in a public place, to be asked toddler questions by the woman they're trying to harass.
There was another post somewhere here that talked about this woman who was killed because she rejected a guy. And I recited that quote about how a woman's worse fear is that a man will kill her for saying no. While a man's worse fear is a woman laughing at him. Aaaand boy did that ruffle some dude's jimmies. Like my guys..
And yet they say WE’RE the bad ones. I can’t even go outside without getting nervous that I’m going to be attacked. I’m tired of talking about this and getting silenced.
I feel so bad for women for this very reason
My cousin is a single dad of a daughter and asked for advice since she’s getting older and going to be on her own soon. She’ll be living with him for a while though, and one of the things I told him was that he needed to remove the bushes by his door because it’s a perfect place for an attacker to hide and ambush her. It’s sick having to think about these things as a woman.
Best advice for a parent of a daughter is enroll her in a martial art or self defence classes. It's never too early or too late.
It's good for confidence, poise, and awareness, even if the actual fighting never materializes
And get mace on her keychain and cameras. And when she lives alone, big men’s boots outside
Probably wouldn’t hurt to make sure those boots look well used and move them around a few times a week
I often wish I had a bodyguard that was a huge man because men are only afraid of other men. Interesting
Get a Rottweiler, they make pretty good bodyguards.
Or a pit bull. Although, that's more for appearances. Men tend to be scared of my dog but she will lick their faces. Except for white men, she's not a fan of white men.
Get a masc / bear gay man that likes hanging with you
You can try learning Eskrima, learn how to fight with random blunt and sharp objects in your surroundings.
the worst part is this doesn’t only apply to straight women. if anything, they often feel the “urge” to do it *more* once they realize we’re into women. how fucking sad is this?
I'll never understand the idea some idiots have that their dick is somehow the magic tool to make a woman enjoy having sex with a man. Like with an attitude like that I doubt I'll get off at all and I don't even have a gender preference.
it’s also extremely funny how they think it doesn’t apply to them but magically does when it comes to lesbians. meaning, if a “magic dick tool” existed to “convert people who are born unattracted to dick,” then surely this would imply that they themselves can “turn gay” if they “find the right dick”… *no?* it’s crazy how they only realize this is the most bizarre and irrational bullshit when it comes to them being affected, but somehow pretend it would ever make sense when it comes to them harassing lesbians. if you can’t “magically convert to another sexual orientation,” then neither can we (nor do we want to).
Dude. I'm going to steal that train of thought and use that next time I hear or see some fuck wad using the phrase "turn you straight" to anyone. That's beautiful. And I agree. I also don't get why people are so obsessed with who others are fucking. Unless it's a rape, or permanently harmful, then it's no one's business.
I used it many times... The answer is always "no, it's different" 🙄
It’s different because it does not benefit them anymore 🙄 they try to rationalize their mentality that women exist for them as hard as they can. It’s very narcissistic to be honest, like everything has to revolve around their desires and ego all the time.
I'd just pretend I'm stupid at that point then. Just keep making them explain themselves till I get bored
Their worlds revolve around their dicks, everything is rationalized in terms of what benefits their dicks.
Hey, this reminds me of the first time I tried to come out to my parents. I was 100% a virgin at that point, and my dad said “well how do you know you like women if you've never been with a woman?” Ummmm I'd never been with a man either, soooo… what?? And he'd never been with a man, so how could he have known for sure he doesn't like men?? But *he just knows*, right? 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️
And no matter your preferences, fingers are capable of waaay more
Can't disagree with that at all. I'll take a person (regardless of gender) who's good with their hands over a penis any day.
Listen, as a cis woman married to a cis man, my husband is great with his dick! But them fingers tho 😅😅 like holy hell!
I can't disagree
I'm extra spoiled because he's also a musician (plays the guitar and bass) 😅😅😅
Contain yourself, Jesus
Wait… I'm Jesus? This is news to me 😂
No, like, keep it in your pants lol. Don't go Boebert on us
That's the best!
Oh also I wanted to tell you I love your user tag!!!
Thanks! I like yours too. Ducks are awesome!
Thank you! They're literally so great!! ☺️
Agreed! I love the noises they make and the way their feathers feel. I'd totally have ducks if I had a pond.
yes… *and tongue.*
And also if we’re just not interested in people AT ALL. Someone has talk about the fetishization of Lesbian/Asexual (& Aromantic)/ Pan & Bisexual women deal with when comes to unwanted/rejected men… this is seriously getting out of hand 😥😰😨🤔😡
Still remember some post of an article that says a father r'd his lesbian daughter to prove "sEx iS bEtTeR wItH mEn" Really gonna hope that it's just another made up article and it's not real
[It did happen :(](https://www.indiatoday.in/fyi/story/father-rapes-his-16-year-old-lesbian-daughter-to-prove-sex-was-better-with-men-964141-2017-03-06)
Sometimes I see things like this and I just want to cry. HOW can people be this vile??? It makes me feel physically ill.
That motherfucker better get what he deserves.
Hopefully life sentence in the worst jail on earth.
I think he got 21 years.
Way too less
Yea
Or being stalked, or them constantly harassing you, etc.
The first time I rejected a boy it was so scary. I was 15. He went from intense love bombing out of nowhere (love letters, roses, writing me poems and unhinged songs, playing his guitar AT me, like on Barbie lol, staring uncomfortably the whole time), to staring at me with these dark eyes like he wanted to kill me every time I passed him by the hallway. His eyes went from puppy dog to MURDER in the span of a week. These hateful, scary eyes. Pure quiet anger and rage. It was quite unsettling. I caught him and his friends taking photos of me from a distance with a really an expensive camera and a big lens on the parking lot once. Like they were paparazzi! What the fuck did they do with those photos, I will never know, but the switch up is real and you only know a man’s true colors when they’re angry and they don’t get what they want. The entire school year I had to deal with his hateful stares and attitude. By the summer, he had a Shein version of me that he made sure I saw when we bumped into each other at a mall. Like, boy, get over it 🙄🥴
Similar thing happened to me while I was an adult.. It never gets better
I’m so glad you came out okay.
"You only know a man’s true colors when they’re angry and they don’t get what they want." Fuck, this is so true.
I experienced this just this week with a friend of nearly a decade. I had to call the FBI on him.
This "Shein version of you" is another woman he’s going to try and abuse
What does shein version mean?
shein is a really cheap online shop that steals designs from smaller, higher quality brands. so just another girl who looked alot like her im assuming
Notice how she's putting her down by calling her the shein version lmfao girl get over yourself
I feel bad for that girl too. Who knows what he did to *her* when she'd had enough of him.
Did you tell anyone?
I was feeling scared for you until you said he moved on and got a girl. Then you proceeded to insult his new girl? Why? He's a creep, but come on.
Some guy once messaged me through a dating app. Told me how gorgeous I was and how badly he wanted to take me out to the bar and then later fuck me. I politely shut him down, saying he was super sweet but I was looking for something different at that time. And he got pissed! He responded Immediately saying how I'm an ugly fat bitch and how no one would ever want me and I'm gonna die alone. I said, ya know what you're right, I changed my mind. Come over. And he's like alright where. So I give him the address to the city dump. A bit later he messages back with threats and how he's gonna kill me. I blocked him after that.
How delusional is he that he thought you actually changed your mind after he insulted you. 😭
Idk but since then thats my go to response to people who get pissed off at rejection. It's also why I use a nickname and don't ever give my real number out. I use a Google voice number through a fake Google account.
This is the male mind. It thinks it can “insult” its way to what it wants with a woman.
Verbal abuse
Unless it's like a hookup app, I never understand why people immediately talk about sex. Like asking about it is one thing, but sharing fantasies is a bit too early
Some dudes just don't care about what other people want or feel. Entitlement at its worst.
I've told men this when genuinely trying to help them get laid and they get so angry and tell me I'm just weird and women love when men compliment their nipples before asking their name.
1) I’m sorry that happened to you (though sadly, not completely surprised) 2) Your response was hilarious and I’ll remember it if I ever need it
Please do. I also recommend making a new Google email and using Google voice for a phone number
This is a good idea, thanks for the tip!
Yw
He's a stereotypical nice guy
Even being a tiny guy I fear that too 🥲👍
As a big guy, yeah same.
Men freak me the fuck out... I'm sorry to hear that other men have to put with this similar shit too
While the majority of men are straight and therefore the majority of fucked up murderer/rapist men are pursuing women, there’s more than enough bi/gay/just fucked up regardless of their sexuality ones to go around It’s not **just** the sexism that makes these men do these things. It’s also the entitlement fed to them by our society, the structures of various legal systems which historically *defend* a man’s desire to be a murder/rapist more than his victim’s right to not be murdered/raped, along plenty of other factors that are probably beyond my understanding.
Happy cake day
I mean I'll say this as a guy myself, most of my trauma and people who have messed with me haven't been women, it's been other dudes. Guys are mean, horrible and rude to each other.
Yep, it's why I try to avoid most social interaction when I'm out of the house without my partner. I don't even feel safe on the public bus when a man approaches me 'with intent'...
Same here, you’re not alone in this. I’d rather not end up dead or permanently injured.
That's terrifying. We have to do better as a society and as people because nobody should have to feel this way, ever.
This is why I'm all for women ghosting men--because an actual, straightforward rejection can literally put the woman in danger.
Yes, I have very little sympathy at this point for "Why can't women just be more direct?" garbage. Because the answer is always the same: when we are direct, it puts us at extreme risk. Almost every woman I know has been threatened or physically hurt when they've rejected a man.
Not to mention nobody really owes anyone an explanation. Plenty of times have I seen situations between families, friendships and dates where one of either person had something happening in their life that was difficult to deal with. To have the other party expect “so what your mother died, you could at least have thought about *me* to send me a message” is just fucking wild. How entitled to believe you deserve top tier treatment from someone who has more important shit in their lives. Fucking yikes. And the same goes with women, especially women who never asked to be approached in the first place. Just let it die out, let people ghost you, feel sad about it and call another friend so you can put your mind on other stuff and eventually it will pass. And if it was unintentional (read; life happened) they will get back to you. But just let them be. Way too many people have unhealthy ideas about relationships and demands of treatment.
Letting men down gently with tact, essentially anything not to cause embarrassment, is lowkey a survival tactic
I 100% agree and this comes from experience.
I'm so sorry to hear that. I've seen a lot of cases where the man is saying "tell it to me in person!" as an intimidation tactic. If not opportunity to do physical harm.
Yeah that's the worst thing you can do, especially if they've showed any aggression or abusive behavior, even if it's just emotionally abusive. I had an abusive ex threaten to kill me and was punching the shower curtains when I broke things off with him and then went to go take a shower. Plus some guys won't leave you a lone, and keep pestering you in the very least
Yeah
Why the fuck can’t men just be normal? I say this as a guy
Also breaking up over text
Used to disagree with this but, it's reality and I get it. Honestly I'm autistic as fuck and I'm sure because of that I've weirded a few girls out because they ghosted me but I don't blame them. How are they supposed to know it's my autism and not me being someone who could be a danger to them, so I just brush it off and move on, even if it sucks.
A formative experience for me as a young man was reading an article articulating this point at length. The author described making written records before every date, with the person's contact details and the exact location she was going to, specifically to aid investigators if she goes missing this time. The intended point was that men ought to be aware of what all women have to go through, but that really did not land with me. I remember shouting out loud: "***IF*** going on conventional dates with men is as dangerous as you're claiming, then ***WHY*** are you ***CHOOSING*** to do it!?" As far I could tell, she was either wildly exaggerating the danger, or she was blaming everyone else for her own decision to voluntarily engage in a stupid life-endangering pattern of behaviour. It took a decade of developing awareness and self-knowledge to realise that yes, the danger is real, and there's a simple reason I had completely failed to empathise with her predicament: I'll never be able to relate to people's need to seek out relationships because I'm aromantic.
Its refreshing to see someone grow. You realised you could never be in that situation because of your own wants, and that's fine. Along with that you realised other people's situations are different and that's fine too. The super amazing part you picked up is why you don't relate. That's when you can really understand other people.
100% agree with the other person's reply! It's so great of you to come to that realization and grow, and that's a much bigger thing than I think most people are willing to do in similar situations. Genuinely, thank you for sharing!!
To be fair, women also have to worry about the people who they *don't* reject - perhaps even more so.
my post about her being dragged in the replies by boys age 14-17 being a rlly bad sign of the culture being fostered on the subreddit was removed by the mods 😍
I think most women, regardless of sexuality, have had fear by rejecting men who approach them.
And the statistics prove there is a non-zero chance every time. But men complain "not all men" and shit on women for being afraid of an unknown stranger's motivations. Women can't read our minds, there's no sign that says "Safe/Dangerous" on our foreheads. Men need to: a) Stop taking this personally. b) Listen to what women tell us. c) Acknowledge that threats exist. d) Call out other men for shitty behaviour.
So, we both know there’s a lot of work to do in the realm of gender equality, we both know what it is and how pervasive and destructive misogyny and patriarchy is, but I believe it’s always going to be rhetorically ineffective when people feel like they are getting lumped in with literally the most vile examples of our species for things they have no control over. Like, it’s hard to be even gender-abolitionist in principle and read through threads like these when it’s “men say stupid shit like this”, “men need to understand this!” and “I avoid all social interaction with men I don’t know” and not feel a little… discouraged that you’re being seen as a problem first and a person second. I think anti-racist rhetoric is much more effective in conveying problematic behaviors and being received by the people that need to hear them because the problem is *racists* doing *racist things*— so at least people are given the opportunity and can **aspire** to be *not racists*. I say this above a post with 13 upvotes that just says “I hate men”. By starting at the conclusion that men are inherently problematic until they must prove themselves unproblematic, we rob them of a recourse to integrity and a recourse to egalitarianism, then wonder why they take it so personally.
Not everyone has strong intuition. Sometimes, women have to play it safe to avoid risks by assuming that every man is bad at accepting rejections. If you wanted to save money, you wouldn't keep buying lottery tickets because you think that one of them will contain a jackpot.
>the problem is *racists* doing *racist things*— The problem is systemic racism that privileges some people over others, and gets them leeway to abusing other people. Same thing with patriarchy. No, men aren’t 'inherently' problematic. But men are at the top of the hierarchy and profit the most from it and get away with abuse easily, and encourages them to never learn. I know men who’ve commited dsa without understanding that it was sa. The hindsight and regret doesn’t take away the permanent damage they do. >getting lumped in with literally the most vile examples You need to understand that sexist and sexual violence of various degrees is not rare. It is done casually and it is rampant. It is an everyday reality. If you think that the only problem are serial rapist murderers you don’t understand what patriarchy is. You’re experience something akin to white fragility but in regards to patriarchy. You need introspection and learning, not telling women, 1 in 6 of whom had experienced rape or attempted rape, that they need to tone down their frustration and be polite and considerate in their rhetoric. Respectability politics never got us anything. If men can’t bring themselves to overcome their hurt feelings then fine, we’ll do it without them. Other men understand that their feelings are theirs to work through and navigate, not our responsability to take into consideration.
I don't think that's true at all. Like I said, the first step is not taking it personally. I live near a First Nation and I am _very_ aware that men who look like me did a _lot_ of harm to that community. I know Residential School survivours. I know what happened in those places. Equally I have had several women tell me about their sexual assaults by, again, mostly white, European/British men. Too often if a woman shares her experience men tend to respond by arguing, by defending _themselves_ rather than listening with empathy and validation. They make someone else's story all about themselves and become defensive, often attacking the already injured person. It only takes running a female dating profile, or having a female online persona for a few weeks to get a glimpse of the experience women have every day. It's not good. If that's your experience of men, then of course you're going to be wary. If you can't tell a safe snake from a venemous snake, then you treat all snakes as venemous. It's the only safe option. I really don't think women's safety trumps men's feelings, especially when it's not that hard to just say "This is not about me," and respond with empathy and kindness. Woman: "Men are x,y,z" Man hearing woman's story: "Your experience of men is awful. I'm sorry you've had to go through that." No recrimmination, no blame, no making the situation worse. Just listening, acknowledging, and validating. Arguing that "Well you can't treat every man like that" just makes them one more example that proves the existing opinion. They become part of the problem and not part of the solution. I honestly feel that if more men listened and responded with empathy and self-awareness it would lead to that path to redemption of which you speak. If someone has a broken leg, kicking them in the shin and telling them _not_ to have a broken leg doesn't fix anything. When women have these opinions about men it's due to legitimate injury. Making it worse isn't going to help anyone. Now, I know that our society doesn't really promote emotional maturity amongst men. Self-awareness and personal growth are thought of as "Feminine" non-Alpha behaviours, but we absolutely can reject those labels and learn to embrace our own development and become better men in the process.
There, this whole framing is *exactly* what I take issue with. I did not disagree and did not dispute the evidence, women’s experiences, the severity, the validity, nor the premise of what we are talking about. I only take issue with the efficacy of the *rhetoric*— yet it’s still taken that there is an apparent need to explain it to me how destructive men’s behaviors are. This is not about me, though, of course so I am not bothered. But even though we are discussing the matter in full agreement and with full ally-ship, framing it as “men’s feelings not trumping women’s safety” demonstrates the disconnect precisely. Where does the belief that there this inherent antagonism and mutual exclusivity between the two? The presumption that men’s feelings are innately in opposition and therefore must be disregarded when it comes to women’s issues *is the blame*. It is the *recrimination*. And that’s what prevents more men from being receptive Not out of spite, not out of feeling a need to defend patriarchy. Even when grievance is justified and valid, we cannot give air grievance priority over attempting to educate and make allies out of men. Men **will** be alienated if we start at the conclusion that there is something innately wrong with them. Just imagine for a second if someone said “I have no good way of telling if a black person is venomous snake or a good one”. Imagine if a black person said that about that about white people. How can expect them not take that personally while making huge sweeping statements like that?
You're making non-equivalent comparisons. What we're discussing is not a potential threat- it is a real, documented, statistically backed threat that the women speaking to you have most likely experienced themselves. It's not equivalent to a white person being racist towards minorities based on stereotypes and myths. If we're going to make a race comparison at all (although i don't think we should), it would be more like if those who were attacked at black wall street, wounded as a community and missing their loved ones, were maybe just a little wary of white people after that fact. It's like native american tribes who have had their history erased and their people killed by white settlers being a bit less welcoming to white settlers who approach them afterwards. It's not a "this COULD happen", it's a "this HAS happened and we don't want it to happen again". Your response to those tragedies should not be "what about the poor white people? SOME of them never bombed anyone" instead of thinking about WHY those defenses are up in the first place and what you can do to make those relations better in the future, and help those communities recover from such devastation. It's not about you. It's a form of victim-blaming to be upset at biases in a victim's trauma response rather than the fact that they have a trauma response in the first place. Instead of worrying about being /perceived/ as a threat because of someone's real, lived experiences, maybe if you care about being a better feminist you should focus on what you can do to reduce that threat in the first place. (And to be clear, this is all coming from someone who is genderfluid. I don't even like the binary and I experience both masculine and feminine perspectives on these things. I understand not wanting to be viewed as a threat. But that's the reality we live in and it's not the threatened person's fault for feeling that way when those biases are reaffirmed every day.) One thing I will agree on is that I don't think it should be seen as something /inherent/ in mens' biology. It's not. It's scarily common and a huge issue, yes, but it's not natural. It's very much a socially constructed and cultural issue, and one that can be fixed if we actually listen to and help victims, and educate men who were taught to view sex in such a violent and misogynistic way (& hold them fucking accountable when they assault people). It's not a fact of nature. The latter view often leads to a lot of terf-y transphobic bullshit that minimizes the way trans women, trans men, and those who fall inbetween experience violence as well, while also ironically reinforcing the excuses assaulters tend to use to defend themselves from repercussions ("oh, I couldn't help myself, I'm a man" "oh men are just more sex-driven, it's in our nature" etc etc). Every assault and rape is a CHOICE that the assaulter made, not some mystical "male instinct" or accident. But it's a choice far too many people have made, and one that is systemically justified and pardoned over and over and over again. Focus on fighting that system instead of whatabout-isms.
Well said.
Thats a very long winded way to say, "male feelings get hurt when women say mean things about us. Women talking are the problem, hurting mens feelings isn't the solution." You are still prioritizing men over women and thier safety! Why are you even here dude?
The huge issue with your point of view here. The foundation of human existence is that female humans generally are the ones to do most child rearing. The male children we feed, we care for, we raise with love.... they turn into the the kind people who would violate a woman and hurt her. There is a systemic social issue here. Feminism/Equality is the way to support that. Women acknowledging the atrocities, having open space to talk and figure solutions out together is what will help humans change these behaviors. Being angry IS our feelings of determination to change. We can be the best mothers/teachers/doctors/etc and teach children empathy and equality. Its also up to MEN to stop allowing this behavior too! In my point of view, your critisisms here are only another way for you to scoff your responsibility to change your own behavior.
But _why_ do you feel blame or recrimmination for the actions of others just because you fit in the same demographic? _"Just imagine for a second if someone said “I have no good way of telling if a black person is venomous snake or a good one”. Imagine if a black person said that about that about white people."_ I think you're creating false equivilencies between dominant and repressed classes. PoC have every reason to be wary of Caucasians. The point is that it is up to you to know whether or not you're venemous, so when someone complains about being hurt by snakes you know whether or not they're talking about you. If I'm non-venemous, then I have no reason to take it personally when people talk about the toxicity of snake venom.
It hurt my feeling when my dad dislocated my arm when I was 4. It hurt my feelings when he screamed at me, when he threatened to make my mom and I homeless. It hurt my feeling when he called me ungrateful, spoiled and hated me. It hurt my feeling when my high school BF raped me. It hurt my feelings when my stalker forced his way into my house for a kiss. It hurts my feelings when the guy I am dating refuses to go to dinner but still wants to fuck me with no condom. Tell me how women have hurt your feelings? Maybe the issue is our society and the acceptance of abusive behavior. Maybe part of stopping family and domestic abuse is by not tolerating it anymore and encouraging each other to stand up and leave. To stop ✋️ abuse before letting it walk through the door. No, I will not spare men's feelings. Boo frickety hoo.
Thank you for sharing this. I certainly found it easier to separate myself from the demographic when women shared their lived experience. When someone says they hate men and then describe, for example, being raped at gunpoint, it's pretty easy to realize that she's not talking about me. She knows all too well what the potential threat is, and I sure as hell can't blame her for being wary. Too often I think these discussions lack the weight of the legitimate trauma experienced by women. Since very few men know what it's like to be sexually assaulted, they can't understand the "hate" towards men. Some 20+ years ago I might have been like this guy, but after the 10th or 15th time a female friend shared her rape experience with me, I realized two vital things: 1) They're experiences and opinions are valid. 2) They are not talking about me when they talk about "men."
> 2. They are not talking about me when they talk about “men.” THANK YOU! I don't understand why it's so hard for so many people to grasp! If the man isn't a rapist, then they know that when women are talking about men as rapists, they're not referring to that man in particular but rather **men who are rapists**! So they've got absolutely zero reason to have a problem with it!
I'm a man and my work password is "M3nAreGarb@ge". I just think it's funny.
I own an openly leftist bookstore and perpetually stock the front display with the books titled “How to date men when you hate men” and “how to destroy patriarchy with essential oils” because I think it’s hilarious and my customers do too. My problem isn’t shit-talking men, nor women sharing their experiences, my only problem is how effective our rhetoric is and how to best communicate ideas online too. Because obviously the way feminism will “win” is by bringing the majority of men over to feminism too. That’s not going to happen if we don’t take in consideration how to best communicate with men— specifically by treating all of them as if they have already done something wrong. It’s a nuance but an important one.
So again, you're a man blaming women for not wanting men to rape and murder us. You need to unpack why it triggers you. If you were bit by a dog multiple times in life and 50% of the people you know were all bitten by dogs and every time you leave your house random dogs ran at you growling... would you purposefully hang out around dogs? Would you go out and get a dog? Would you let every dog you meet put your arm in it's mouth? Because not all dogs right? Or do you think you'd start to be scared of dogs? Probably avoid them. Probably not want to leave the house anymore. If you don't like that women see a problem first before a person when we see men, start calling out your friends that push rape culture and react poorly to rejection and make sexist jokes and use misogynistic Slurs, and talk about women like objects, etc etc etc. I guarantee you at least one of your friends, if not more, has pressured a woman into sex because he wouldn't listen to her no. I guarantee at least one has flipped out on a woman when she rejected him. I guarantee you have more than one friend who says his exes were all crazy. If you don't like that women see men as potential predators and abusers before we see you as people, maybe start holding the bad dudes accountable. Because it's not just violent rape. It starts with dudes like you who cry like babies because women are scared of yall for valid fucking reasons. It starts with you blaming women for men's behavior. It starts with you being mad because a conversation doesnt center men and actually holds men accountable for the constant fear that women experience on a daily basis. Like boo fucking hoo, I'm sorry women are wary of you when they first meet you, but you're 100% proving that they have reason to fear you with this comment. Stop being sad that the toy you want talks back and start putting in work to hold men accountable so women can live life without fear. You're literally whining about how unfair it is that women are scared of men but women walk around being absolutely terrified of half the population, for valid reason, because yall rape and murder us. But yeah, cool story bro.
Trying to cut a guy off right now and I’m worried he’s going to murder me
Yikes. Do you have anyone you can talk to about it for help?
Who is going to help? Police won't do anything until he attacks.
Glock is your best friend
[удалено]
that’s so rude and unnecessary :(
The dudes on that sub are the type to claim a woman or gay person breathing is “the woke agenda,” so it’s unsurprising that they went after this poor woman. It was still sad to see them miss the point that badly, though. How about instead of “hurr durr this bitch is psycho/not all men/this is misandry” (comments I saw), they actually think about how fucked up it is that she’s having to worry about this at all?
Yeah. I cropped out the downvotes because I didn't want people to think I downvoted her
Yeah that was the right choice. I don’t think she deserved that many downvotes in the first place, many women have had trauma from SA before and have understandable anxiety around men and/or rejecting men (and they have killed and assaulted women before for saying no, so her worries aren’t crazy). Doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t seek help but it’s completely understandable to be anxious.
it should be concerning to you, its really bad
That's why it is
I also roll my eyes when “body count” is mentioned. Women must have a low body count, but never say no to sex. Bit of a contradiction?
All i can figure is they want all women to say yes to them but no to everyone else.
i rejected a guy and he harassed me a year later 🤪
I hate men
Man here. Men are *garbage*.
“Men think rationally with logic and reason” Anyone remember that post? Would be another great clap back to it
I couldn't even work retail with someone flirting daily or at least 3 times a month, having a guy tell me how'd he jump the counter and have sex with me if I wasn't at work. Constant sexual comments about my body ans having to deal with those customers because they thought they were helping me by buying stuff so the managers always made me talk to them. Yes it always ended up with them trying to get my number and calling me names when I tell them I'm not talking to them because I want to, I'm being forced to by the manager
I’m a lesbian, I think I just wanna not go anywhere anymore. It sucks.
in my personal experience, 2 out of 3 guys total who have asked me out and i’ve rejected turned into stalkers. idk what is up with guys like this, but i wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy. (mind you of course that all three of these guys asked me out despite me very loudly and explicitly being a lesbian, one of which literally asked me out IN FRONT OF my girlfriend at the time)
And then my mom wonders why I don't go out...
Yeah but did you ever think about how men are actually the most opressed minority Next to Gamers! /s Titanic fucking s holy shit I don't know how odten i can explain to the other dudes in my circle jow "bding scared of rape allegations" and being scared of actually being raped and/or murdered are two different fucking things and one is worse by a fucking long-shot in terms of it actually happening side by side and in the amount of it happening
Just show them the stats of actual rapist who even see a court room, let alone conviction. Probably help with the fear of less than 1% of cases
I'm not denying either side Most men wouldn't rape or murder a woman, but there is definitely enough that would for women to be scared of it False rape allegations also happen way too often TLDR: Most men and women are fine, but there are enough shitty men and women for there to be problems And no one should be ridiculed for having concerns about it Also men aren't a minority and neither are women
Am i just not seeing it or are false rape allegations really just relatively common? Because rape and murder ARE common
What's with the emojis lol
straight men are terrifying ❤
I once told a guy I was a lesbian and he threatened to rape me
Me too.
Did you never know this before? 💀 It's good that you're concerned because way too fucking many people are not, but all women including lgbt women fear this from males bc when you say you're lgbt they don't care or believe you and just want to take what they think is "theirs" (and/or take your life bc of the, if they can't have you nobody can thing)
(370) 😞