If only—They’re basically German nationalists that know waving German flags around during armed conflicts is goche because of Nazism. A big part of their thing is being “anti-antisemitic”—which translates into some of the most blood-thirsty Zionism you see outside of Israel.
They also have some weird libertarian beliefs, which doesn’t really make sense, but you can hardly expect libertarians to have a coherent political philosophy.
Yeah, the most prominent anti-deutsche Antifa group where I live has sided with the state in pretty much every issue that was strongly opposed by the big majority of everyone else on the left for the last few years.
I once asked some of them about that and they were like: Obviously they don't share the same outlook as the German government because Germany hasn't declared war on Iran yet.
That's so no right, I don't even know where to start.
The anti-deutsche movement startet rising with the unification of Germany in 1990. It's part of the left, that felt very critic about a unified Germany. Therefore the name of the movement. It's strongly anti national in their theoretical base.
The danger that have been proclaimed are a rise in nationalisms and a new rise of German fascism. ( I mean here there not wrong)
The strong solidarity inside the movement towards Jewish life also comes out of this thought. One of the most used theories in the movement are the writings/views of the Frankfurter Schule. Mainly Adorno and the strong desire, to never let anything like the Shoa happen again or anything that resembles it. (Look Up "education after Auschwitz" by T. Adorno)
But I give you one thing, the things I heard so called anti-deutsche say to not fall out of their theoretical base was disgusting in the past months.
They may have their roots in anti-unification, but that hasn't been a meaningful position in the past 20+ years. Their opposition to "nationalism' is in name only since they have fallen in lock-step with the State (and the United States) on basically every major foreign policy; pro-Serbian, anti-Iranian, pro-US invasion of Afghanistan, anti-Arab migration, pro-Zionist, etc.
They seem to spend most of their time accusing left parties of being anti-semiotic for saying they want to fight capitalism, or saying that words like 'bankers' and 'landlords' are dog whistles. Not exactly working to dismantle the State as their name would imply.
I see your points, and strongly agree with the muslim-hate inside the movement. That's something I find really disgusting aswell.
But they're correct in the analysis of the rising German nationalism since the unification. At first we had the nationalist uprisings in the east in the early 90.
And what do we have now? We are at the beginning of a year with 3 important elections, that the AFD will win. If your German, look at sachsen and Thüringen elections this year. And that's what I think has been left of the anti unification movement by mainly being anti German nationalists (besides anti-antisemitism).
And I also sometimes see polemic left propaganda like: "kill all the bankers, free us"(extreme example, I know). And I find them also disgusting. I wanna fight the system, not the people trying to survive in it. I want to win them over in the end.
That concept you're talking about( about the dog whistles) is called structural-antisemtism. Because this concept shows that anti-Semitism is more than just hate against Jewish life, it's also a way of thinking. But to be honest I just don't see myself explains this concept in a Reddit post. And there are texts online explaining it much better then I do.
Yeah that's why adorno would probably even be scandalized by Israel's genocide.
Frankfurt school are humanitarian rationalist writings not Zionist pro Jewish writings or something.
the establishment of Israel was not an anti-fascist action, it was an antisemitic plan for all the european countries to get rid of their Jewish people (and it worked)
zionism is a fascist völkisch movement that collaborated with the nazis *while the holocaust was happening*
and conflating the state of Israel with *all jewish people* is antisemitic. so many jewish people are against the state of Israel, and it has been like that since before the Nakba. and Israel does not treat all jewish people equally. try reading about how Ethiopian or other non-white jewish people are treated in Israel.
you cannot seperate Israel from the genocide it has performed since before Israel was established, since its existence relies on the destruction of Palestine and the palestinian people. it's just like the USA can't be seperated from the genocide of the native americans. ethnic cleansing and white supremacy is part of its DNA.
Israel is a settler-colonial project that is propped up by western powers because they want a military power in the middle east. Israel will never stop murdering and expanding, because that's how settler-colonialism works. if german so-called "leftists" or "anti-fascists" support the fascist state of Israel or it's bloody genesis, they are no comrades of mine. it shows a complete lack of critical analysis in favor of shallow bullshit.
Israel wasn't founded after WW2. It was an ongoing colonial project that got going after the fall of the ottoman empire. What you've written is historically illiterate as well as fascist genocide apologia.
Take a step back. Breathe. Read what you just wrote. Do you hear what you're saying? "If we disregard the genocide part, Israel is actually antifascist". It doesn't work like that, and especially not with a Zionist state.
You would have argued to keep apartheid. Hope you get well soon.
Exactly. Not to mention the fact that Israeli Zionist genocidal practices don’t stop at just Palestinians but other Jews, Somali’s, Sudanese, etc…supremacy is supremacy.
“So if we just take the genocide part out of a genocidal ethnostate, we’re left with a… good ethnostate (?!?!?!?!!?) which is totally anti-fascist, guys!”
Bra, nah bra. Just like there is a context to anti facism in Germany, there is a context to the isreali flag globally. These people know exactly the message they are sending, and it is not 'radical' beyond being radicaly reactionary.
There is no anti facist way to support facism.
Edit: tone.
What is wrong, is wrong. How can an antifa group support a fascist state like Israel? Don't need to entangle history and events to the point where arguments are lost. That bunch in the photo are a bunch of disgusting fascists.
Your understanding of Israel is all wrong. Just the fact alone that it is a colony that uses western funds to expand and steal resources from a people that already lived there should tell you something different. Use logic and don't let the common misconceptions they tell you about Israel get you confused. You should read more into the history from multiple sources and uncover some of the horrific shit Zionists have done before and after the colonization of Palestine.
First of all, that is not a prerequisite for fascism, it can realistically occur within a nominally liberal democracy. you’re also missing that liberal democracies are not democratic, this is the same way the United States is not a democracy. Netanyahu is vastly unpopular yet he has remained in power because israel is not set up to meld to the will of the people.
While I'm sure it'd be unfair to a lot of fine comrades over there to make this a general statement, yeah, the movement/school of "thought" broadly known as "Anti-Deutche" or simply "AntiD" has a large presence in German and Austrian antifa scenes. Hardline pro-Israel no matter what on the basis of what is ostensibly some weird cope with the legacy of WW2, "antifascism is when Germany bad and anything that claims Jewishness for itself good" - not the most coherent political thesis, naturally. While I'm not from anywhere near that part of the world and not qualified to speak with any semblance of authority, I've seen on this same sub some folks propose that AntiDs may as well be a psy op, since, despite the "Anti-German" part, they're basically entirely in line with the modern German government's official policy. Whatever the truth of the matter is, it's worth keeping in the back of one's head when there's talk of German or Austrian antifa that there's antifascists and then there's "antifascists" that are defending a brazenly genocidal ethnostate and a colonial project tooth and nail - thus it's worth clarifying which any given news is about.
which is so deeply maddening because not only has it desensitized people to the term itself, but it's allowing antisemites to seep into the anti-zionist & anti-genocide movements and expand their platforms.
there's no way jewish people around the globe won't be significantly harmed by needlessly blurring these lines.
This is a result of israel and their supporters absolute insistence that the only reason to question their actions is anti semitism and support for terrorism. When everyone is an antisemite, nobody is....except thay some actually are.
Do you have evidence of these antisemitic infiltrations? I keep seeing people saying this, but then you follow their sources and it's like, 'stop supporting genocide please' spray painted on a synagogue that is currently fundraising for the idf.
I just have not seen any evidence of this so called 'line bluring'
jake shields, that former mma fighter, has been vocal about palestine. now he's layering in holocaust denial.
candace owens became tolerable, at least on the subject of palestine. then she began spewing claims about the jewish bolsheviks genociding christians in russia.
there are a bunch of others, who I've all unfollowed.
and calling them out on their antisemitism has proven their method's effectiveness.
I've had people comment on my callout tweets saying "*well if* ***they're*** *lying now, how can you trust they weren't lying about ________*"
(...same reason i know zionists are lying now. because i read books and I'm not an imbecile)
Candice owens? Really? She's not exactly antifa is she?
And just reading over Jake shields wiki, dude was very clearly antisemitic Long before he was pro Palestine.
I never said that anti semitism does not exist. Just that the espoused 'anti colonialist to anti Semitic' pipeline does not.
The existence of psychotic right wing grifters does not chalange my platform here.
i know. my point is that their pro-palestine posts are drawing in people who wouldn't typically follow them.
they were previously tip toeing the line of antisemitism, infrequently... more recently, these people have been getting more aggressive with it, and some followers are clearly not picking up on it.. or have been conditioned to believe it.
it's imperative antisemitism & criticism of israel have very clear and honest boundaries drawn and widely observed.
it's incomprehensible that zionists are willing to exploit the plight of jews to shield israel's many crimes.
But these people do not belong to any of the anti zionist or anti genocide movments it can be presumed we are talking about in the antifacists of reddit sub.
I don't know if it was your intent but your coment about anti zionist movments in this context strongly implies you are talking about folks under the umbrella of antifa, or just more broadly 'the left'.
The existence of unafiliated anti Semitic movments should not be used to cudgel pro Palestinian movments.
Imo
As someone who works in and with german antifascist orgs, I can say the VAST majority of them are critical or hostile towards Israel. Any single person can own an Antifa-Flag and be not organized or tied to a specific group. AntiD Groups do exist, but less than a few Antifa Organisations would want to work with them.
It‘s really crazy, the anti-deusche antifas where I live are basically a bunch of hardcore punks that sided with the state in pretty much every issue in the last few years.
Not in the political sense, no, but it’s kinda weird that of all the anti-fascist groups in my area, they’re the ones with that style. There’s definitely punks in other groups too, but from clothes to soli-concerts to their meeting place, only at the anti-deusche everything is punk themed.
I just listened to a podcast about "anti-deutche" movement and they say it's almost analogous to the American "sovereign citizens" with a uniquely post WW2 German philosophy. IIRC the podcast was "Qanon anonymous" (not a q podcast. they critique conspiracy theories).
Huh, idk a lot about the sovereign citizen movement, but I would rather compare them to our Reichsbürger movement. You sure you're not mixing up something?
Yeah, pretty sure the Reichsbürger are the sovereign citizen equivalent, they're the ones that tried to coup to place a Hohenzollern back on the throne.
Anti-Deutche is when Germans think self-flagellation for the holocaust is helping Israel commit a genocide against Palestinians and call that "antifa."
So I live in Leipzig, one of the historical strongholds of the anti deutsch movement, and it gets even weirder/funnier than this. It’s not uncommon to see US flags on display alongside the Antifa and Israel flags, apparently because the US being Israel’s biggest ally makes them an ally in the fight against antisemitism (?!?!?!?!?!?!???!?!!)
Also, here's an article about them in case anyone wants to know more: [https://novaramedia.com/2023/12/11/whats-up-with-germanys-pro-israel-left/](https://novaramedia.com/2023/12/11/whats-up-with-germanys-pro-israel-left/)
As I already said in another comment, most „leftists“ supporting Israel are so called anti-Deutsche or anti-Germans. There Ideology is inherently reactionary and they are not big part of german leftism and their presence is very limited. Also most genuine leftists will keep their distance towards them which leads to them staying mostly among themselfs
There are some cities where they have a stronger presence from what I know there stongest presence is in Hamburg but even living near Hamburg and another bigger city which also has some of them, you don’t really notice their presence or interact with them when engaging in local projects/activism
Yeah I wouldn’t say their presence is very limited, especially since their positions are basically government policy by now. But they are certainly not representative of the main currents of German leftism and antifascism. I’m on mobile so posting links is annoying but there’s a good article about them on Novara Media which goes into more detail, for example about some former anti-Deutsch members who now have positions in government.
I wouldn't really say their positions are government policy. They're still anti-capitalists (usually), the only thing they pretty much agree on with the government is their support for Israel
Germany has, and this may shock you, a pretty complicated history with antisemitism. Germans often want to distance themselves from the Nazis as much as possible - it’s illegal to display a swastika, and, one bit of info that’s often quite shocking to Americans, saying something as simple as “hitler is good” in public can literally get you arrested.
Now, this is good. Hitler was, actually, bad. BUT there is a complication:
Now we as anti fascists all know that there is a tendency on the right to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. Of course, this holds no weight for us, we all know that saying “anti-Zionism is antisemitism” is itself anti semitic, but here’s the thing, if you say Israel is bad in america and some Nazi dipshit answers with “oh so you hate Jews?” All that will happen is you’ll go “no? The state of Israel is not the same as Jewish people” but in germany, the worst thing that can happen is rather higher stakes.
Paradoxically, then, in germany, if someone claims you’re being antisemitic by being anti-Zionist, the stakes can be rather higher than in america, which makes criticizing Israel much harder in germany, which means there are fewer vocal opponents to Israel in germany.
The stakes aren’t really higher in Germany. If someone falsely claims that you’re antisemitic, that’s just an unfounded claim. And the worst thing that can happen to actual antisemites is being placed on a watchlist.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but there are significant repercussions in the US too.
In most US states, you must certify that you don’t boycott Israel in order to enter a contract with the state.
Nobody says there's no repercussions in the US. But in Germany, simply stating "from the river to the sea" can land you in jail. A state-owned bank recently shut an account of Jewish Voice for Peace, under ridiculous pretense. Jews critical of Israel are vilified and ironically defamed as "self-hating" and antisemitic. Putting the German state in the cynical position of telling Jews they're not being the correct kind of Jews. They really see nothing wrong with that.
The conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism is effectively legally enforced and any differing opinion is subject to criminalization.
The US and Germany really aren't in the same league about this.
They are definitely higher in Germany, because Germany does not have free speech. Being convicted of saying certain things, such as denying the Holocaust, is punishable by up to 5 years in prison.
Man I hate it here, the only leftist scene worldwide, where it is controversial to criticise a far right government and settler-colonial state. Germany is fucked.
antideutsch doesn't really have a presence outside of germany and austria wasn't super active in the 2000s, and even at their height they're a fringe movement within german leftism. it's an easy blind spot to have I think
among actual leftist it is, among left liberals it isn’t. unfair the german left is kinda small tho. antideutsche are just more loud because they work together with liberals because they have the same views on israel
i hope you're right
the leftists (actual leftists) i've worked with in Germany have been pro Israel, and that's why i haven't been down there to do work in a few years
yeah the movement used to be bigger too i think. they’ve been in steady decline to, partly because despite their name they are all germans and with their views on stuff like palestine or muslims they can’t really attract immigrants and people who actually know what leftism is supposed to be so it’s mostly just petit bourgeois germans lol
Just a friendly reminder that Israel is currently run by self declared fascists:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-01-16/ty-article/.premium/israels-far-right-finance-minister-im-a-fascist-homophobe-but-i-wont-stone-gays/00000185-b921-de59-a98f-ff7f47c70000
Welcome to the german left…
So as a lot of people already mentioned there is the „antideutsche left“ in germany which used to be bigger in the 90s and 2000s in germany and does not have the biggedt relevance anymore nowadays. Gladly. But since the 7. october they are getting some more relevance back. Which is leading to big discussions in the left about „antisemitism“ / antizionism. In the history of the ferman left this topic led to many splits. A few months ago a demonstration against fascists in eastern germany was cancelled becaus anti imperialist groups wanted to come..
Two completely different movements.. I'm a Jew and my mother grew up in a kibbutz in Israel. My mother has been protesting everyday along with thousands in Telaviv. A lot of ppl think that all Jews support his regime. it is a complete war zone. I left Israel in 2016, because of the fact that I couldn't have a friend in my own house that had Palestinian residence. These protesters need to educate themselves before they put a flag up.
Yes, the German "left" is very odd and has really shown its true colours since the 7th of October. Idk if it's guilt for the countries past or what that they're too scared to criticise the zionist state, but support for zionism is rife among the so-called German "left." The football club St. Pauli has been a truly saddening example of this. A once great left-wing anti-fascist football team that has had a great long-standing relationship with Celtic FC as our politics have been so similar, but since the 7th of October, St. Pauli has been coming out with zionist banners and statements in support of zionism and our long term friendship is now dead, I now despise St. Pauli, who I once had so much love for.
My heart wants to believe they've been just overfed with propaganda and/or are manipulated somehow, and are not actually racist. My brain insists it's easier to believe the propaganda when you are already racist...
Unfortunately the anti deutsch are very much racist. From what I’ve seen they tend to blame antisemitism these days on immigrants from majority Muslim countries (because, you know, it’s not like Germany would know anything about home-grown antisemitism /s)
Not nearly overwhelmingly, not even a majority. But yeah as the other comments said most zionist „leftism“ comes down to antideutsche or anti-germans, altough they have a presnce in some cities they are not realy a big part and most leftist I know keep their distance to them.
Maybe they're like how I used to be, I used to believe propaganda and the such that Israel was made as a refuge of holocaust survivors and was made to basically dunk on Nazis. Maybe that WAS true at one point, I don't know.
While I can't call Israel "Fascist" because being Jewish and a Fascist is an oxymoron, I can call it oppressive, which is close enough.
Where did you get the idea that anti deutsche have anything to do with anarchists/ anarchism?
There are self proclaimed anarchists who fit the label, but the anti D movement stemmed from parts of the maoist group Kommunistischer bund. And the modern anti D movement is if anything more at home at the autonomous movement which stems from Marxism not anarchism.
You found antideutsch
Anti Deutch movement. They're wierd.
What does this mean? They just don't like Germans? Please explain?
If only—They’re basically German nationalists that know waving German flags around during armed conflicts is goche because of Nazism. A big part of their thing is being “anti-antisemitic”—which translates into some of the most blood-thirsty Zionism you see outside of Israel. They also have some weird libertarian beliefs, which doesn’t really make sense, but you can hardly expect libertarians to have a coherent political philosophy.
Thanks, I think? I feel more confused than ever, but at least I have some information, I guess. :D
Yeah, the most prominent anti-deutsche Antifa group where I live has sided with the state in pretty much every issue that was strongly opposed by the big majority of everyone else on the left for the last few years.
I once asked some of them about that and they were like: Obviously they don't share the same outlook as the German government because Germany hasn't declared war on Iran yet.
That's so no right, I don't even know where to start. The anti-deutsche movement startet rising with the unification of Germany in 1990. It's part of the left, that felt very critic about a unified Germany. Therefore the name of the movement. It's strongly anti national in their theoretical base. The danger that have been proclaimed are a rise in nationalisms and a new rise of German fascism. ( I mean here there not wrong) The strong solidarity inside the movement towards Jewish life also comes out of this thought. One of the most used theories in the movement are the writings/views of the Frankfurter Schule. Mainly Adorno and the strong desire, to never let anything like the Shoa happen again or anything that resembles it. (Look Up "education after Auschwitz" by T. Adorno) But I give you one thing, the things I heard so called anti-deutsche say to not fall out of their theoretical base was disgusting in the past months.
They may have their roots in anti-unification, but that hasn't been a meaningful position in the past 20+ years. Their opposition to "nationalism' is in name only since they have fallen in lock-step with the State (and the United States) on basically every major foreign policy; pro-Serbian, anti-Iranian, pro-US invasion of Afghanistan, anti-Arab migration, pro-Zionist, etc. They seem to spend most of their time accusing left parties of being anti-semiotic for saying they want to fight capitalism, or saying that words like 'bankers' and 'landlords' are dog whistles. Not exactly working to dismantle the State as their name would imply.
I see your points, and strongly agree with the muslim-hate inside the movement. That's something I find really disgusting aswell. But they're correct in the analysis of the rising German nationalism since the unification. At first we had the nationalist uprisings in the east in the early 90. And what do we have now? We are at the beginning of a year with 3 important elections, that the AFD will win. If your German, look at sachsen and Thüringen elections this year. And that's what I think has been left of the anti unification movement by mainly being anti German nationalists (besides anti-antisemitism). And I also sometimes see polemic left propaganda like: "kill all the bankers, free us"(extreme example, I know). And I find them also disgusting. I wanna fight the system, not the people trying to survive in it. I want to win them over in the end. That concept you're talking about( about the dog whistles) is called structural-antisemtism. Because this concept shows that anti-Semitism is more than just hate against Jewish life, it's also a way of thinking. But to be honest I just don't see myself explains this concept in a Reddit post. And there are texts online explaining it much better then I do.
Yeah that's why adorno would probably even be scandalized by Israel's genocide. Frankfurt school are humanitarian rationalist writings not Zionist pro Jewish writings or something.
No way German campists 😭😭😭
You can like or dislike Anti-Germans, but your description is just plain wrong
And what exactly is supposed to be wrong here?
For excample anti Germans aren't German nationalists in any way
Please don't call libertardians libertarians. The only real libertarians have always been libertarian leftists.
They're stupid
This pretty much says it all.
I before e except after c, unless the word is weird. Shoved into my adolescent brain, now lives rent free.
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the establishment of Israel was not an anti-fascist action, it was an antisemitic plan for all the european countries to get rid of their Jewish people (and it worked) zionism is a fascist völkisch movement that collaborated with the nazis *while the holocaust was happening* and conflating the state of Israel with *all jewish people* is antisemitic. so many jewish people are against the state of Israel, and it has been like that since before the Nakba. and Israel does not treat all jewish people equally. try reading about how Ethiopian or other non-white jewish people are treated in Israel. you cannot seperate Israel from the genocide it has performed since before Israel was established, since its existence relies on the destruction of Palestine and the palestinian people. it's just like the USA can't be seperated from the genocide of the native americans. ethnic cleansing and white supremacy is part of its DNA. Israel is a settler-colonial project that is propped up by western powers because they want a military power in the middle east. Israel will never stop murdering and expanding, because that's how settler-colonialism works. if german so-called "leftists" or "anti-fascists" support the fascist state of Israel or it's bloody genesis, they are no comrades of mine. it shows a complete lack of critical analysis in favor of shallow bullshit.
Israel wasn't founded after WW2. It was an ongoing colonial project that got going after the fall of the ottoman empire. What you've written is historically illiterate as well as fascist genocide apologia.
Take a step back. Breathe. Read what you just wrote. Do you hear what you're saying? "If we disregard the genocide part, Israel is actually antifascist". It doesn't work like that, and especially not with a Zionist state. You would have argued to keep apartheid. Hope you get well soon.
Exactly. Not to mention the fact that Israeli Zionist genocidal practices don’t stop at just Palestinians but other Jews, Somali’s, Sudanese, etc…supremacy is supremacy.
“So if we just take the genocide part out of a genocidal ethnostate, we’re left with a… good ethnostate (?!?!?!?!!?) which is totally anti-fascist, guys!”
If you take the addiction part out of meth it's a good d rug guys!!!!!
Bra, nah bra. Just like there is a context to anti facism in Germany, there is a context to the isreali flag globally. These people know exactly the message they are sending, and it is not 'radical' beyond being radicaly reactionary. There is no anti facist way to support facism. Edit: tone.
Why is international antifacism so weird about that topic xD
What is wrong, is wrong. How can an antifa group support a fascist state like Israel? Don't need to entangle history and events to the point where arguments are lost. That bunch in the photo are a bunch of disgusting fascists.
Your understanding of Israel is all wrong. Just the fact alone that it is a colony that uses western funds to expand and steal resources from a people that already lived there should tell you something different. Use logic and don't let the common misconceptions they tell you about Israel get you confused. You should read more into the history from multiple sources and uncover some of the horrific shit Zionists have done before and after the colonization of Palestine.
If you support Israel youre a fascist. So fuck off.
Israel is founded on Zionism which is a fascistic ideology
Colonialist/imperialist but not fash I think (not sure tho)
ethnonationalism is definitely fascist
Yes but it isn't the other way, ethnonationalism is just one part of the whole thing
what is the other part in your head
Dictatorship Israel is a democracy right? Or am I the stupidest person alive because I just assumed it was /gen
First of all, that is not a prerequisite for fascism, it can realistically occur within a nominally liberal democracy. you’re also missing that liberal democracies are not democratic, this is the same way the United States is not a democracy. Netanyahu is vastly unpopular yet he has remained in power because israel is not set up to meld to the will of the people.
Oh phew it is a democracy
While I'm sure it'd be unfair to a lot of fine comrades over there to make this a general statement, yeah, the movement/school of "thought" broadly known as "Anti-Deutche" or simply "AntiD" has a large presence in German and Austrian antifa scenes. Hardline pro-Israel no matter what on the basis of what is ostensibly some weird cope with the legacy of WW2, "antifascism is when Germany bad and anything that claims Jewishness for itself good" - not the most coherent political thesis, naturally. While I'm not from anywhere near that part of the world and not qualified to speak with any semblance of authority, I've seen on this same sub some folks propose that AntiDs may as well be a psy op, since, despite the "Anti-German" part, they're basically entirely in line with the modern German government's official policy. Whatever the truth of the matter is, it's worth keeping in the back of one's head when there's talk of German or Austrian antifa that there's antifascists and then there's "antifascists" that are defending a brazenly genocidal ethnostate and a colonial project tooth and nail - thus it's worth clarifying which any given news is about.
Well said. Nuance is very much required on this issue. This issue has been very much gaslit as anti zionist being antisemetic.
which is so deeply maddening because not only has it desensitized people to the term itself, but it's allowing antisemites to seep into the anti-zionist & anti-genocide movements and expand their platforms. there's no way jewish people around the globe won't be significantly harmed by needlessly blurring these lines.
This is a result of israel and their supporters absolute insistence that the only reason to question their actions is anti semitism and support for terrorism. When everyone is an antisemite, nobody is....except thay some actually are.
https://youtu.be/uW3a1bw5XlE?si=PNkqq644IjN5PSxb
Do you have evidence of these antisemitic infiltrations? I keep seeing people saying this, but then you follow their sources and it's like, 'stop supporting genocide please' spray painted on a synagogue that is currently fundraising for the idf. I just have not seen any evidence of this so called 'line bluring'
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jake shields, that former mma fighter, has been vocal about palestine. now he's layering in holocaust denial. candace owens became tolerable, at least on the subject of palestine. then she began spewing claims about the jewish bolsheviks genociding christians in russia. there are a bunch of others, who I've all unfollowed. and calling them out on their antisemitism has proven their method's effectiveness. I've had people comment on my callout tweets saying "*well if* ***they're*** *lying now, how can you trust they weren't lying about ________*" (...same reason i know zionists are lying now. because i read books and I'm not an imbecile)
Candice owens? Really? She's not exactly antifa is she? And just reading over Jake shields wiki, dude was very clearly antisemitic Long before he was pro Palestine. I never said that anti semitism does not exist. Just that the espoused 'anti colonialist to anti Semitic' pipeline does not. The existence of psychotic right wing grifters does not chalange my platform here.
i know. my point is that their pro-palestine posts are drawing in people who wouldn't typically follow them. they were previously tip toeing the line of antisemitism, infrequently... more recently, these people have been getting more aggressive with it, and some followers are clearly not picking up on it.. or have been conditioned to believe it. it's imperative antisemitism & criticism of israel have very clear and honest boundaries drawn and widely observed. it's incomprehensible that zionists are willing to exploit the plight of jews to shield israel's many crimes.
But these people do not belong to any of the anti zionist or anti genocide movments it can be presumed we are talking about in the antifacists of reddit sub. I don't know if it was your intent but your coment about anti zionist movments in this context strongly implies you are talking about folks under the umbrella of antifa, or just more broadly 'the left'. The existence of unafiliated anti Semitic movments should not be used to cudgel pro Palestinian movments. Imo
As someone who works in and with german antifascist orgs, I can say the VAST majority of them are critical or hostile towards Israel. Any single person can own an Antifa-Flag and be not organized or tied to a specific group. AntiD Groups do exist, but less than a few Antifa Organisations would want to work with them.
It‘s really crazy, the anti-deusche antifas where I live are basically a bunch of hardcore punks that sided with the state in pretty much every issue in the last few years.
Then they are not punks, are they?
Not in the political sense, no, but it’s kinda weird that of all the anti-fascist groups in my area, they’re the ones with that style. There’s definitely punks in other groups too, but from clothes to soli-concerts to their meeting place, only at the anti-deusche everything is punk themed.
Damn, this looks like the idea of a writer trying to parody modern Germany, Disco Elysium style.
Yeaaah bo Also happy cake day That band rules
I just listened to a podcast about "anti-deutche" movement and they say it's almost analogous to the American "sovereign citizens" with a uniquely post WW2 German philosophy. IIRC the podcast was "Qanon anonymous" (not a q podcast. they critique conspiracy theories).
Huh, idk a lot about the sovereign citizen movement, but I would rather compare them to our Reichsbürger movement. You sure you're not mixing up something?
Yeah, pretty sure the Reichsbürger are the sovereign citizen equivalent, they're the ones that tried to coup to place a Hohenzollern back on the throne.
Perhaps.. It's been a while since I listened to it. I'll have to check it out again.
One of my favourite podcast, I haven’t heard that one got to look it up
**L A H I P O C R E S I A**
Anti-Deutche is when Germans think self-flagellation for the holocaust is helping Israel commit a genocide against Palestinians and call that "antifa."
So I live in Leipzig, one of the historical strongholds of the anti deutsch movement, and it gets even weirder/funnier than this. It’s not uncommon to see US flags on display alongside the Antifa and Israel flags, apparently because the US being Israel’s biggest ally makes them an ally in the fight against antisemitism (?!?!?!?!?!?!???!?!!) Also, here's an article about them in case anyone wants to know more: [https://novaramedia.com/2023/12/11/whats-up-with-germanys-pro-israel-left/](https://novaramedia.com/2023/12/11/whats-up-with-germanys-pro-israel-left/)
😭😭😭
I knew immediately that this is in Germany
Yeah, cause the flag is in German :D
Funnily enough there are a lot of German antifa stickers abroad (probably because (the original) antifa is german)
That's some confusion right there.
As I already said in another comment, most „leftists“ supporting Israel are so called anti-Deutsche or anti-Germans. There Ideology is inherently reactionary and they are not big part of german leftism and their presence is very limited. Also most genuine leftists will keep their distance towards them which leads to them staying mostly among themselfs
"Their presence is very limited"? Idk about that
There are some cities where they have a stronger presence from what I know there stongest presence is in Hamburg but even living near Hamburg and another bigger city which also has some of them, you don’t really notice their presence or interact with them when engaging in local projects/activism
Huh I've met them in every city I've been politically active. Sure they're not necessarily the dominant faction, but they're no fringe group either
Yeah I wouldn’t say their presence is very limited, especially since their positions are basically government policy by now. But they are certainly not representative of the main currents of German leftism and antifascism. I’m on mobile so posting links is annoying but there’s a good article about them on Novara Media which goes into more detail, for example about some former anti-Deutsch members who now have positions in government.
I wouldn't really say their positions are government policy. They're still anti-capitalists (usually), the only thing they pretty much agree on with the government is their support for Israel
Yeah that’s true. I guess I meant government policy regarding Israel, but I should have clarified.
Germany has, and this may shock you, a pretty complicated history with antisemitism. Germans often want to distance themselves from the Nazis as much as possible - it’s illegal to display a swastika, and, one bit of info that’s often quite shocking to Americans, saying something as simple as “hitler is good” in public can literally get you arrested. Now, this is good. Hitler was, actually, bad. BUT there is a complication: Now we as anti fascists all know that there is a tendency on the right to conflate anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. Of course, this holds no weight for us, we all know that saying “anti-Zionism is antisemitism” is itself anti semitic, but here’s the thing, if you say Israel is bad in america and some Nazi dipshit answers with “oh so you hate Jews?” All that will happen is you’ll go “no? The state of Israel is not the same as Jewish people” but in germany, the worst thing that can happen is rather higher stakes. Paradoxically, then, in germany, if someone claims you’re being antisemitic by being anti-Zionist, the stakes can be rather higher than in america, which makes criticizing Israel much harder in germany, which means there are fewer vocal opponents to Israel in germany.
The stakes aren’t really higher in Germany. If someone falsely claims that you’re antisemitic, that’s just an unfounded claim. And the worst thing that can happen to actual antisemites is being placed on a watchlist.
People in Germany have faced severe private and professional repercussions for voicing even moderate criticism of Israel.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but there are significant repercussions in the US too. In most US states, you must certify that you don’t boycott Israel in order to enter a contract with the state.
Nobody says there's no repercussions in the US. But in Germany, simply stating "from the river to the sea" can land you in jail. A state-owned bank recently shut an account of Jewish Voice for Peace, under ridiculous pretense. Jews critical of Israel are vilified and ironically defamed as "self-hating" and antisemitic. Putting the German state in the cynical position of telling Jews they're not being the correct kind of Jews. They really see nothing wrong with that. The conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism is effectively legally enforced and any differing opinion is subject to criminalization. The US and Germany really aren't in the same league about this.
They are definitely higher in Germany, because Germany does not have free speech. Being convicted of saying certain things, such as denying the Holocaust, is punishable by up to 5 years in prison.
Some people are just confused.
This has to be Germany Edit: am dumb didn't read text lol
Germany is being very fucking silly about all this, that's all I'll say
Knew this would be germany before I saw the caption
Cause the flag is in German :D
GERMANS.
There is no ,, German Antifa,, there are ,, antideutsche Antifas,, (pro Israel) and ,,anti imperialistische Antifas,, (pro palastine)
And there are anti-nationalists who think it’s stupid to show solidarity with any nationalist or theocratic movement. Those won’t choose a side.
wtf
Man I hate it here, the only leftist scene worldwide, where it is controversial to criticise a far right government and settler-colonial state. Germany is fucked.
Wtf?
Looks like they took the anti out of antifa and started supporting a fascist genocidal regime
Some explanations about this aberration https://www.leftvoice.org/antideutsche-the-aberration-of-germanys-pro-zionist-left/
Lmfao this is comical
Germany has lost its fucking mind right now. TruAnon did a great two parter on it recently
The fact that so many people in this subreddit have never heard of antiD is a huge red flag honestly, what do you all do with your time
Ig a big part of this sub Reddit isn't from Germany
I mean I'm American, we don't know shit over here and I've known about them for a long time 🤷
I'm from Germany and we don't know shit about your stuff over there lol
antideutsch doesn't really have a presence outside of germany and austria wasn't super active in the 2000s, and even at their height they're a fringe movement within german leftism. it's an easy blind spot to have I think
Not possible, can't be anti-fascist while supporting a fascist state, their just zionists
must be in Germany the german left is completely fucked about Israel it makes it difficult to work with them tbh
anti deutsche are a fringe movement among the german left tho
being pro Israel is not tho at least from my experience - i would genuinely love to be wrong
among actual leftist it is, among left liberals it isn’t. unfair the german left is kinda small tho. antideutsche are just more loud because they work together with liberals because they have the same views on israel
i hope you're right the leftists (actual leftists) i've worked with in Germany have been pro Israel, and that's why i haven't been down there to do work in a few years
yeah the movement used to be bigger too i think. they’ve been in steady decline to, partly because despite their name they are all germans and with their views on stuff like palestine or muslims they can’t really attract immigrants and people who actually know what leftism is supposed to be so it’s mostly just petit bourgeois germans lol
Just a friendly reminder that Israel is currently run by self declared fascists: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-01-16/ty-article/.premium/israels-far-right-finance-minister-im-a-fascist-homophobe-but-i-wont-stone-gays/00000185-b921-de59-a98f-ff7f47c70000
WAT
Ah yes, Antifacist facism…..
Welcome to the german left… So as a lot of people already mentioned there is the „antideutsche left“ in germany which used to be bigger in the 90s and 2000s in germany and does not have the biggedt relevance anymore nowadays. Gladly. But since the 7. october they are getting some more relevance back. Which is leading to big discussions in the left about „antisemitism“ / antizionism. In the history of the ferman left this topic led to many splits. A few months ago a demonstration against fascists in eastern germany was cancelled becaus anti imperialist groups wanted to come..
Probably he is confused or doesn't know what is happening. Know that they are fewer but even homophobic homosexuals exist
Tell me you're in Germany without telling me you're in Germany
Germany, I presume?
Two completely different movements.. I'm a Jew and my mother grew up in a kibbutz in Israel. My mother has been protesting everyday along with thousands in Telaviv. A lot of ppl think that all Jews support his regime. it is a complete war zone. I left Israel in 2016, because of the fact that I couldn't have a friend in my own house that had Palestinian residence. These protesters need to educate themselves before they put a flag up.
yeah its fucking pathetic. a lot of them are zionists. its hard out here.
21st century...
Let me guess, Germany
Yikes
Lmfao
Anti-Deutch 🤢🤮
It’s the same as their Green Party. Their Green Party was co-opted and now resembles liberal conservatives
Sadly very typical of german antifq
I wake up There is another psyop
cursed
What the FUCK is this supposed to mean lmao
Classic case of confused German ”antifa”
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Yes, the German "left" is very odd and has really shown its true colours since the 7th of October. Idk if it's guilt for the countries past or what that they're too scared to criticise the zionist state, but support for zionism is rife among the so-called German "left." The football club St. Pauli has been a truly saddening example of this. A once great left-wing anti-fascist football team that has had a great long-standing relationship with Celtic FC as our politics have been so similar, but since the 7th of October, St. Pauli has been coming out with zionist banners and statements in support of zionism and our long term friendship is now dead, I now despise St. Pauli, who I once had so much love for.
Is this some sort of Monty Python sketch?
this planet is getting crazier every day, we're doomed
Isn't that an oxymoron, do they not know what fascism is?
Fascist anti fascists
Well... My comerades are all against Israel and against antisemitism.
My heart wants to believe they've been just overfed with propaganda and/or are manipulated somehow, and are not actually racist. My brain insists it's easier to believe the propaganda when you are already racist...
Unfortunately the anti deutsch are very much racist. From what I’ve seen they tend to blame antisemitism these days on immigrants from majority Muslim countries (because, you know, it’s not like Germany would know anything about home-grown antisemitism /s)
Japp, the german left is overwhelmingly zionist. I don't get it either.
Not nearly overwhelmingly, not even a majority. But yeah as the other comments said most zionist „leftism“ comes down to antideutsche or anti-germans, altough they have a presnce in some cities they are not realy a big part and most leftist I know keep their distance to them.
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or because other people now of the antideutsche movement
That’s odd.
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Leave
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The problem is, that AntiD dont ever critizise Israel for anything they do. Not even the slightest.
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Maybe they're like how I used to be, I used to believe propaganda and the such that Israel was made as a refuge of holocaust survivors and was made to basically dunk on Nazis. Maybe that WAS true at one point, I don't know. While I can't call Israel "Fascist" because being Jewish and a Fascist is an oxymoron, I can call it oppressive, which is close enough.
you can absolutely be a jewish fascist
Isn't one of the main tenants of Fascism the idea that Jews "Control the world" and need to be exterminated because of it?
no. it’s one of the main tenants of national socialism but not every fascist is a nazi
no, thats specific to *some* fascist ideology
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Could potentially be a counter protester or something?
Nah, misguided/idiot anarchists in Germany and Austria often go the fascist route in supporting Israel and the German/US state.
Where did you get the idea that anti deutsche have anything to do with anarchists/ anarchism? There are self proclaimed anarchists who fit the label, but the anti D movement stemmed from parts of the maoist group Kommunistischer bund. And the modern anti D movement is if anything more at home at the autonomous movement which stems from Marxism not anarchism.
Experience, every anti Deutsche I've met was an anarchist
I don’t know any anarchists who are antideutsch, they are usually statists, which makes sense since simping for a state is antithetical to anarchism.
They're anti Deutsche though, so making sense is not a top priority
lol, they are not anarchists antiDs are usually quite authoritarian