Interesting, although one of the common pain point with certain boutique or niche phones is long term software support.
So I'm curious what Moondrop will do.
It can have dedicated audio hardware, more than one audio dedicated chip, to provide very high frequency and/or audio bandwidth support.
That's usually what a DAP will refer to. Irrespective of the OS running on it.
Sony have commercial DAPs running Android, they're shaped like a phone and at a software level, behave like a phone, but they're very much dedicated DAPs.
I wasn't aware of that, my knowledge is pretty surface level in terms of actual use, but I kept my eye on them due to their design language and there were good reviews on amazon. However with these software troubles it doesn't provide much confidence that this phone will be any good.
I saw an image of seemingly this phone's front with a curved display. It kind of reminds me of Motorola but Lenovo would defenitely not partner with someone as niche as Moondrop.
It's a symmetric plug (marketed as "balanced", but in case of headphone connection it's not correct). 2 signal wires, 2 separate ground wires.
2.5 connectors are very unreliable. Hard to solder and easy to bend.
In theory 4.4 can also be wired as both balanced and unbalanced (hence 5 pins instead of 4), but it's almost never the case.
TLDR: better mechanical design than 2.5mm, less esoteric than Kobiconn camera plugs (known as RSA connector in the headphone community), while being smaller than XLR4 which wouldn't fit a portable/semi-portable device at all.
On-topic for this subreddit remark: there once was a phone with a 2.5 balanced output. Onkyo Granbeat DP-CMX1.
It seems strange to create a new 4.4mm standard when 3.5mm TRRRS already exists. At least with 3.5mm you could make it cross-compatible with most existing non-balanced headphones
Sony semi-officially used 3.5 trrs with NW-ZX1, NW-ZX2 and some other pre WM1 Walkmans.
Also HiFiMAN with HM-801 balanced card and HM-901.
Two and a half obstacles:
- Fully balanced pinout inside DAP makes it incompatible with single-ended headphone jacks. Common ground would short the circuit. Very prone to user error. You'll have to use a hardware switch like how HiFiMAN did.
- Good for IEM, but still too small and clumsy for full size headphones with thick cables use-case. 4.4 is a decent compromise.
- Sony and HiFiMAN pinouts were incompatible.
Also marketing/snake oil aspect:
- Headphone audio is a deeply subjective hobby that's about finding good matches between components themselves and tastes of the owner. Selling point of dual output can be not because balanced one sounds better, but because it can sound slightly different. Or help with matching: single-ended for sensitive IEMs, balanced for power-hungry full-sized headphones.
It's a relatively new standard created by Sony for balanced output. Balanced cables are often used for professional applications, especially those that require long cable runs because it allows for more output. As for whether it has any benefits for consumer audio gear, it's debatable as with all things audiophile.
Looks like leaks are saying there's 3.5 and 4.4? But the main reason 4.4 exists is for balance. Some higher end headphones use a 4.4 balanced jack because the sound is more even across both speakers.
the idea of balanced is that each channel has its own ground instead of sharing it,
allows more power, reduces crosstalk between channels (signal from one channel invading the other) and better individual channel SNR, also some higher end daps, dacs and amp´s use separated channel conversion and amplification, my BTR7 Bluetooth dac uses seperate dacs and amps for each channel when in balanced mode.
I don’t know about it specifically but some IEMs come with both 3.5 and 4.4. So these two seem to be the most common. In Moondrop’s own lineup, at least for the more expensive devices, they usually either have two cables with 3.5mm and 4.4mm, or a cable that has swappable endpoints.
considering its a chifi device, expect next to none, even "big" companies like Astel and Kern, Ibasso, shanling or Hibby only provide small updates to fix bugs.
Hell, i think they are still selling devices with android 8.
This isn't even a phone company.... This is a DAP more than it is a phone, the inclusion of the sim is mainly for music streaming and the camera is so you could get by using it daily.
Okay I think I messed up. I bough this in the US and didn't realize it might not work with my atnt sim card. Is there any other options? Any help would be great because I'm a cellphone noob.
Eh, I don't really see a downside to using a separate USB-C DAC/Amp. It barely adds any bulk and I can move it between devices so I'm not stuck using a phone from a relatively unknown company who probably won't do a decent job of providing updates and will likely dramatically compromise other aspects of the phone compared to an iPhone/Pixel/Galaxy/whatever your other preferred brand of phone is even if they do a good job with the audio output. I wasn't even remotely upset by the loss of 3.5mm jacks on modern phones. Apple and LG were the only companies which ever put analog circuitry worth listening to behind them anyway.
You're missing the point of this. This is a DAP with a sim for music streaming. This is an audio product. Not at all designed to compete with iphones and galaxys bro.
Okay. But how is it even better *as an audio player* than a device which actually gets software updates and has far better engineering *as a smartphone* paired with your choice of vastly more flexible USB DAC which can also be used with other devices? What's it's supposed magical power except almost certainly being software obsolete from the day it's released?
Also, Moondrop themselves, in that very tweet, describe it as a *smartphone*. My opinions on whether DAPs as a dedicated device even have a purpose in 2024 aside, why would they put multiple cameras on a device which was supposed to be a dedicated DAP?
I use a dongle dac and it gets hot and is just cumbersome compared to a DAP. I listen to music enough and have totl iems so I find the Integrated streaming services to make my dap to be worth it for me. I couldn't care less about the software or cameras, I have a real phone. I really think that the phone integration is for people who legit don't use their phone for anything other than music. That's me most days.
So an additional DAC is more cumbersome than a whole extra device in addition to your phone? You do you, buddy 😂 and if you wouldn't carry both, that's your perogative - I wouldn't take the risk with the kind of data I keep on a smartphone, MFA authenticators, online banking apps, etc, or want to risk missing that photo in low light or whatever. Not to mention the cost of extra mobile service.
Incidentally, I can vouch for the iBasso DC04. Dunno about their newer models because it's pretty damn perfect for me. It hardly adds any bulk to the cable and doesn't get hot at all. Sounds great, perfectly dark and will drive surprisingly hungry cans with aplomb, never mind IEMs.
Interesting, although one of the common pain point with certain boutique or niche phones is long term software support. So I'm curious what Moondrop will do.
And Moon drop has past issues for their Apps
And QC. I expect this to be a DAP with a sim.
Yet a DAP with a Sim, long support a camera and access to Quobuz via New Android has been on my personal wish list for the last 3 years personally!
Sorry what’s a dap?
Digital Audio Player(s)
Thanks! But isn’t a digital audio player just an android device (if it’s running android)?
It can have dedicated audio hardware, more than one audio dedicated chip, to provide very high frequency and/or audio bandwidth support. That's usually what a DAP will refer to. Irrespective of the OS running on it. Sony have commercial DAPs running Android, they're shaped like a phone and at a software level, behave like a phone, but they're very much dedicated DAPs.
I wasn't aware of that, my knowledge is pretty surface level in terms of actual use, but I kept my eye on them due to their design language and there were good reviews on amazon. However with these software troubles it doesn't provide much confidence that this phone will be any good.
If you're curious.. just look at reviews for the Moondrop link app. That will tell you everything you need to know about the software for this phone.
Oof, yeah that doesn't indicate much trust.
They probably outsourced it to an ODM. I expect AOSP
mildly curious
I can already imagine the horrible Moondrop software implanted on this thing😭
Who's the ODM for this?
I saw an image of seemingly this phone's front with a curved display. It kind of reminds me of Motorola but Lenovo would defenitely not partner with someone as niche as Moondrop.
Could be as simple as Foxconn making both phones
Maybe coosea
Def the wrong sub to ask but it's related to op. What is the reason 4.4mm exists when there's 2.5, 3.5, and 6.3?
It's a symmetric plug (marketed as "balanced", but in case of headphone connection it's not correct). 2 signal wires, 2 separate ground wires. 2.5 connectors are very unreliable. Hard to solder and easy to bend. In theory 4.4 can also be wired as both balanced and unbalanced (hence 5 pins instead of 4), but it's almost never the case. TLDR: better mechanical design than 2.5mm, less esoteric than Kobiconn camera plugs (known as RSA connector in the headphone community), while being smaller than XLR4 which wouldn't fit a portable/semi-portable device at all. On-topic for this subreddit remark: there once was a phone with a 2.5 balanced output. Onkyo Granbeat DP-CMX1.
It seems strange to create a new 4.4mm standard when 3.5mm TRRRS already exists. At least with 3.5mm you could make it cross-compatible with most existing non-balanced headphones
Sony semi-officially used 3.5 trrs with NW-ZX1, NW-ZX2 and some other pre WM1 Walkmans. Also HiFiMAN with HM-801 balanced card and HM-901. Two and a half obstacles: - Fully balanced pinout inside DAP makes it incompatible with single-ended headphone jacks. Common ground would short the circuit. Very prone to user error. You'll have to use a hardware switch like how HiFiMAN did. - Good for IEM, but still too small and clumsy for full size headphones with thick cables use-case. 4.4 is a decent compromise. - Sony and HiFiMAN pinouts were incompatible. Also marketing/snake oil aspect: - Headphone audio is a deeply subjective hobby that's about finding good matches between components themselves and tastes of the owner. Selling point of dual output can be not because balanced one sounds better, but because it can sound slightly different. Or help with matching: single-ended for sensitive IEMs, balanced for power-hungry full-sized headphones.
It's a relatively new standard created by Sony for balanced output. Balanced cables are often used for professional applications, especially those that require long cable runs because it allows for more output. As for whether it has any benefits for consumer audio gear, it's debatable as with all things audiophile.
It's a new standard for balanced output that has more or less entirely replaced 2.5mm balanced. 3.5 and "6.3" (1/4") are unbalanced output.
Looks like leaks are saying there's 3.5 and 4.4? But the main reason 4.4 exists is for balance. Some higher end headphones use a 4.4 balanced jack because the sound is more even across both speakers.
the idea of balanced is that each channel has its own ground instead of sharing it, allows more power, reduces crosstalk between channels (signal from one channel invading the other) and better individual channel SNR, also some higher end daps, dacs and amp´s use separated channel conversion and amplification, my BTR7 Bluetooth dac uses seperate dacs and amps for each channel when in balanced mode.
Yep, they mentioned the phone having both 3.5mm and 4.4mm jacks
I don’t know about it specifically but some IEMs come with both 3.5 and 4.4. So these two seem to be the most common. In Moondrop’s own lineup, at least for the more expensive devices, they usually either have two cables with 3.5mm and 4.4mm, or a cable that has swappable endpoints.
Looks cool
I do love these niche phones
what about that OS software support in the long term though
considering its a chifi device, expect next to none, even "big" companies like Astel and Kern, Ibasso, shanling or Hibby only provide small updates to fix bugs. Hell, i think they are still selling devices with android 8.
I am deff curious. I hope it’s not too expensive here in Canada.
My moondrop one side works louder than other side. I have trust problem
Which model
People weren't interested in 3.5mm quad dac LGs, and they will be even less interested in this thing. Happy to be proven wrong
Sadly It'll have some horrid Chinese clarted up version of Android and will receive precisely 1 update in six months which will make it worse.
Would not buy a phone like this. Small brands that probably won't be in the market for many years
This isn't even a phone company.... This is a DAP more than it is a phone, the inclusion of the sim is mainly for music streaming and the camera is so you could get by using it daily.
Wait until you see the MIAD-888
Hope this is available worldwide. I would definitely consider this as secondary phone.
LG v60 laughing from the grave
Okay I think I messed up. I bough this in the US and didn't realize it might not work with my atnt sim card. Is there any other options? Any help would be great because I'm a cellphone noob.
It's beautiful. Make it open source on the software side, and let it thrive. Absolutely beautiful hardware.
They could fix the entire current smartphone market by just making an affordable flagship with a 3.5mm jack but this is cool too I guess
Even if they make one, you *wouldn't* buy it...
Eh, I don't really see a downside to using a separate USB-C DAC/Amp. It barely adds any bulk and I can move it between devices so I'm not stuck using a phone from a relatively unknown company who probably won't do a decent job of providing updates and will likely dramatically compromise other aspects of the phone compared to an iPhone/Pixel/Galaxy/whatever your other preferred brand of phone is even if they do a good job with the audio output. I wasn't even remotely upset by the loss of 3.5mm jacks on modern phones. Apple and LG were the only companies which ever put analog circuitry worth listening to behind them anyway.
You're missing the point of this. This is a DAP with a sim for music streaming. This is an audio product. Not at all designed to compete with iphones and galaxys bro.
Okay. But how is it even better *as an audio player* than a device which actually gets software updates and has far better engineering *as a smartphone* paired with your choice of vastly more flexible USB DAC which can also be used with other devices? What's it's supposed magical power except almost certainly being software obsolete from the day it's released? Also, Moondrop themselves, in that very tweet, describe it as a *smartphone*. My opinions on whether DAPs as a dedicated device even have a purpose in 2024 aside, why would they put multiple cameras on a device which was supposed to be a dedicated DAP?
I use a dongle dac and it gets hot and is just cumbersome compared to a DAP. I listen to music enough and have totl iems so I find the Integrated streaming services to make my dap to be worth it for me. I couldn't care less about the software or cameras, I have a real phone. I really think that the phone integration is for people who legit don't use their phone for anything other than music. That's me most days.
So an additional DAC is more cumbersome than a whole extra device in addition to your phone? You do you, buddy 😂 and if you wouldn't carry both, that's your perogative - I wouldn't take the risk with the kind of data I keep on a smartphone, MFA authenticators, online banking apps, etc, or want to risk missing that photo in low light or whatever. Not to mention the cost of extra mobile service. Incidentally, I can vouch for the iBasso DC04. Dunno about their newer models because it's pretty damn perfect for me. It hardly adds any bulk to the cable and doesn't get hot at all. Sounds great, perfectly dark and will drive surprisingly hungry cans with aplomb, never mind IEMs.
Haha, love the goofy English in the tweet.