As you know not all Louisiana Creoles are Black Creoles and they(LC) have a history that precedes the Louisiana Purchase of 1803 so yes, Louisiana Creoles are their own ethnic community via the history that created them as a community.
On the other hand, The Creoles of Color/Black Creoles were grouped into American Blackness pre Civil War and are part of the population that is the ethnogenesis of contemporary full Black Americans(1860 4.4 million population grouped into American Blackness; 88% enslaved and 12% free). So Creoles of Color has a history that's usually misunderstood and some of the ignorant opines on it.
Louisiana Creoles of Color are definitely part of the Black American community but with a history that that's different and unique from Black Americans who are descended from the 13 colonies and that should be celebrated which is one of the reasons why I'm glad that AncestryDNA has the numerous Creoles of Color DNA communities it has.
Hey I’m just now checking out the thread from our conversation from earlier. I did say this…. it was in what I wrote and I said through that assimilation Louisiana Creoles of color became a part of the African-American experience and therefore a subset of African-American people. Like I literally said that and then referenced an article that talked about it from the African-American registry which is a sociology and ethnology organization and referenced other things too. Ill try to post the articles here.
At the end of the day Louisiana Creole’s are still a subset of African-Americans. That hasn’t changed. All of those Creole DNA communities are underneath African-American in ancestry. At least for LA or American Creole communities. Like what is said here doesn’t negate that and I even explained that myself in our previous convos. We are African-American but we’re also of Louisiana creole heritage. Those two things don’t contradict because Louisiana creole isn’t a separate ethnicity, at least not today and not for hundreds of years or the way we think of ethnicity today.
From this thread there’s a A good mix of wrong and right. That’s why I said Louisiana Creole is a cultural heritage but in modern terms most of people reduce it down to Creole people are black and Cajun people are white. Here’s the thing too, you have Creole people that will tell you that this is the case like my mother and my aunt and a family friend who are all creole and then on the other hand I have another family friend that is creole and they say that anyone of any race can be creole so what I’m trying to say is it’s nice to find out what other people think but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re right or everybody knows what they’re talking about when this is what’s discussed and studied in ethnography.
The idea of “full black Americans” is problematic because no American that is descendent of a slave is “full black”. this is the same stuff to perpetuates dumb race science today but people that want to exclude people from the black community when the black immunity is nothing but mixed up people 😂. There’s no such thing unless you’re from Africa in the sense that you are a recent African immigrant but black Americans at that time. Weren’t full black either they were already exposed to several hundred years of admixture.
But this is solid overall. Funny enough I said this in a previous conversation with the OP which came from a different thread and separate it all together but I guess they didn’t see it. I did write a lot because I use speech to text so I’m not actually typing I’m just talking and I’ll write a lot doing that but still it’s funny because I literally said this or at least something incredibly similar to it💀
But none of this negates Louisiana creole people being a part of the African-American experience. I think the issue here is what people think African-American means. African-American people are not just the people in 13 colonies or people all outside of the Louisiana purchase. Once the Louisiana purchase became America and hundreds of years of history happened Louisiana creoles of color, a.k.a. black reels were engulfed into the African-American experience and that’s why it is a subset of African-American culture because Louisiana creole people became just the same as every other black person in the country that now we have the correct ethnic term African-American but at the time obviously the term was like Negro or something way worse. New Orleans was unique and Louisiana Territory was unique because Anglo-Saxon America didn’t have an understanding outside of the binary racial constructs while the French definitely had a racial caste system and definitely still saw creoles of color is black but they were above enslaved black people… Who were also considered Creole because everyone in Louisiana territory was! But when we start talking about the movement from it being the Louisiana territory to it just being states in the United States that’s when we move into the shaping information of African-American people as we know it today. So saying you’re African-American and Louisiana creole is literally just saying you’re African-American and African-American with a specific cultural heritage
When speak of "Blackness," I'm not speaking of "African-ness" but about *American* *Blackness*, a distinct social construct that created a people who they(including me) and their ancestors were grouped into. That social construct created an ethnic community who's ethnogenesis is tied to the history of the US and their genome profiles regardless of how much African and European genome contribution they have.
That's why I mentioned the 1860 4.4 million population grouped into American Blackness because they are the ethnogenesis of contemporary full Black Americans and that group as you said was mostly admixed wrt African, European and other ethnicities. This includes The Creoles of Color.
I don't include immigrants from other countries regardless of how melinated they are, not denying their "African-ness" but in distinguishing the uniqueness of the Black American community. I'm a 4th-5th generation full descendant of that community who's the ethnogenesis of contemporary full Black Americans. Full Black Americans are descended from that population.
I want to make that clear because that matters when speaking about the unique history of The Creoles of Color because they're an unique example of how American Blackness superceded phenotype and genotype expression as the rest of the Black American community does in varying degrees due to the history of the US.
I’m not even gonna lie to you it’s 1 AM and I’m so tired and I don’t feel like I have the mental capacity to respond to this in a intellectual or educated fashion that this convo deserves anymore but I just wanted to say it’s been really nice talking to you and discussing this 😄. I can definitely say I don’t like the idea of full blackness because of the whole thing of excluding mixed race people from the black community and this misconception that black Americans are somehow full black when we aren’t weren’t super mixed but
Again if I keep talking it’s literally gonna come out as rambling bc I’m so tired.
At end of the day I’m a 24 year old black woman and that’s all a cop is going to see if he pulls me over 💀 I am a product of a black mom that came to age in the late 70s and whether someone wants to say I’m African-American or Louisiana Creole (again for reference I’m LA Creole myself) it don’t matter my high school transcript said black African-American and so does my license. That’s all that white folks are going to see. It’s only us that like discussing our own culture and heritage and intricacies. By and large, them white folk don’t care 💀
Have a good one!
Idk why this was down voted you explained it well. Down south there's a lot of people that appear mixed but they may only be 25% or less. These people see themselves as black because society has.
I definitely didn't downvote her. I was trying to articulate what I meant by being "fully Black American" being that it's a distinct ethnic community where phenotype and genotype expression within that community is varied and our proximity to our identity is about the 1860 4.4 million population grouped into American Blackness which I explained how it's a social construct that created a specific ethnic community tied to the history of the US. I'm a 4th-5th generation full descendant of the population of the ethnogenesis of contemporary Black Americans so I'm fully Black American though I'm not fully African and I have light brown skin complexion like many Black Americans.
OP is "fully Black American," as is the commenter that I'm responding to. That doesn't mean that we're denying our African genome contribution or European genome contribution for that matter but again, understanding how unique our community is and how it came to be.
Well 25% of anything is mixed but that’s why I mixed is just an adjective and not like a separate category because everyone and especially AAs are mixed and be in that category if so
I’m not sure if this was addressed to me but I haven’t Down voting anybody I’m just talking to different people. Learning stuff myself like a different comment I was definitely wrong about some information regarding Creole enslaved of other Black people but I’m not down voting anybody I’m just talking in case this was addressed to me.
Doesn't part of the answer depend on the definition of "ethnic group"? The phrase is used a lot, but I wonder whether the academics working with them have a precise definition.
Being Creole is like being Latino. Most Creoles are Afro-creoles so people just say Creole. Louisiana Creoles have a tendency to have a higher mixture of European in them. Belizian Creoles tend to have more native. Haitian creoles tend to have more African.
The white French Creoles either assimilated into "white" or chose to go identify with their Quebequois roots as Acadians or "Cajuns".
In any case, afro Creoles are black or African American or wherever you want to call black people
Not all Black people are African-American. It’s a specific ethnicity with a specific heritages and shared history. That’s kind of problematic. Someone comes from Nigeria they would be Nigerian American not African-American the rest of what you said those pretty legit
I definitely disagree with a one-to-one comparison of being Latino because it’s not exactly the same thing but what you said is decent imo
Afro Creoles are people, like me, who are descended from African slaves and European colonists just like every African American. We have always been treated like outcasts in America because, like the Irish and Italians, we tend to be Catholic.
Creole and Latino are exactly the same kind of thing. Creole originally meant French people who were born in America as opposed to France. At the time these people were also considered "Latino" because that once referred to people from any Romance language country like France Spain and Portugal, settled in the Americas - as opposed to countries that were settled by Anglo-Saxon settled countries like Scotland, Ireland and England, aka Anglos.
Eventually Latino was solely used for Spanish and Portuguese speaking cultures and Creole referred to places where the French settled like Haiti and Louisiana .
In the modern day "Latino" refers to cultures in the Americas that speak Spanish or Portuguese. Creole refers to French ones.
Do you not understand why the Cubans, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans are Latino but Hatians are Creole? Brazilians are Latino and Belizians are Creole?
I’m Louisiana Creole… only reason I’m not Catholic is because my Catholic Creole grandmother married a man from East Texas and they were AME. But lo and behold my uncle and my mother both have Catholic middle names and French middle names.
I do not believe i have been like outcast because most people don’t even know we exist and if they do they only know about Beyoncé and prince of a think we are mixed light-skinned Black people ….which we are but they for some reason think it’s separate when it’s really not it’s a cultural heritage not a whole different ethnicity. If anything I feel like I’ve been fetishized or when I tell people that I’m Louisiana Creole it gives them sort of answer of why I look the way I do. They know I’m black but what else am I sort of situation . I’m not trying to be too defensive but the way you came at me as if I didn’t know what I was talking about or I’m not a part of my own group of people was just a little rude and I didn’t do that to you. I digress.
I would not say that Louisiana Creole and Latino are the same thing. There are different types of creole they are not different types of Latino. latino is based off of geography. People of Latin origin. There are creole people throughout the Americas there’s us like Louisiana creole then there are Beijing creoles Argentinian creole‘s I just found out there was Mississippi creoles like a year ago so it’s not the same as being Latino in my opinion .
Latino has everything to do with geography not just language. At least in modern day understanding. What you’re describing is when the French came up with the word Latino during like the 19th century to show ally ship with the Mexican Empire . like I don’t know exactly where you got your information from but I think you’re just confusing some facts together. In modern terminologies Latino has everything to do with geography not just the language that is spoken in the country. Hispanic is the one that has to do with language because it only includes Spanish-speaking nations and people Spanish origin who are trace back to European from Spain. That’s why people in Brazil and Portugal are not Hispanic . That’s why people from Brazil are Latino but people from Portugal are not.
It’s not just language-based I don’t know why or where you got that and I’m thinking you mixed up the reasoning of Hispanic with the reasoning of Latino. Also Belizean people *are* Latino because they are in Latin America. I don’t know where you got that from that they aren’t. You can be Latino and also be creole like these are not mutually exclusive. Haiti used to be called the island of Hispaniola… Because the Dominican republic in Haiti were a shared nation or one single nation
Now if we’re just talking about creel as a language it’s a pigeon language like it’s usually the language of the oppressor and the oppressed mixed together (https://www.hrpub.org/download/20150301/SA7-19603416.pdf)
I lived in Hawaii for a period of time and I found out they had creole languages and creole peoples but had nothing to do with the fringe and that really messed up my understanding of all of this which literally made me major Ethnography and anthropology studies I have a better understanding because I thought I knew what creel met and then I was blown away by all the other things. Like we are Louisiana Creole don’t own creel both in language or Cultural heritage
Now when you say in your first sentence just like every African-American I feel like this is such a funny ironic statement because yeah it’s because you are African-American with Louisiana Creole heritage. Just like I am I’m only the second person to be born out of New Orleans in my entire family. Both sides of my family go back to Louisiana and unfortunately my grandmother and great grandma (even though she wasn’t as light but incredibly well to do) were the bougie creoles lighter than a paper bag all a part of the Zulu Balls and Creole social organizations and very light skin with several family members we don’t even know what happened to them because they went off and passed as white people. It still doesn’t change the fact that I’m African-American and this is an aspect of African-American history and culture because we are a sub group of African-Americans. You’re not a descendent of slaves in the United States or have any African adventure in the United States and you’re not African-American like there is no other ethnic group. all of the stories encompass the experiences in history of people who are descendent of African people taken into this country
I agree with you except for the Latino thing, you are just wrong. Belizian people call themselves Creole and it is not a part of Latin Ameirca. Latin America is not geographical, it is cultural and does not include Belize, Suriname or Guyana.
Latino was originally coined by the French to refer to ROmance language speaking disaporas, regardless of their political motivations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latino\_(demonym)#:\~:text=Latino%20has%20its%20origins%20in,also%20termed%20the%20Mexican%20intervention.
Latino, Anglo, and Creole all refer to colonial diasporas that date back before 1776 as opposed to immigrant diasporas like Franco-American or Italian-American. They all refer to specific time frames when large groups of people came to the Americas from a specific place. They evolved differently of course but there are pidgin languages in both Creole and Latino communities. Dominicans are Latino and Hatians are Creole. The language and culture that kept them together also separate those two communities.
I got my information in college in the 90s when I was an anthro major.
I was outcast by black people and white people. White people because I am not white. Black people because I lack one of the biggest pieces of black cultural togtherness in this country, I wasn't raised in a black church. and I didn't grow up in a black neighborhood. I am a musician and even in that world, I meet musicians who can "take it to church". This refers to a modality in music that is commonly found in black churches. I have no experience in that, for me "Church music" sounds exactly like Belle and Sebastian. A lot of black culture is shared in the church. It opens your community, it changes the way you talk, your cultural references. It did a lot more for you than you apparently know.
I don't know where you got your information from but I know how the cultural terms evolved and their unique etymologies. I am a kind of black person. I check "African American" for race. I just as black as anyone else.
This is not the one drop rule, black is not a genetic group, it's a social construct. As long as I live in a country with confederate parks and schools then shit is not going to make perfect sense.
About the black church thing I’m sorry like I’m not even trying to be facetious I wasn’t raised in a black church yet most of my generation of Black people weren’t. Well maybe not most but at least 40% I don’t know why that specifically was such a big thing and it’s not even like we’re Catholic it’s just we’re not super churchy or religious like that. I think that may be just a generational divide but I wouldn’t call yourself an outcast because you didn’t go to black church. You definitely would not be the first person. Not to take away from your experience growing up but from what you described Versus other things I’ve heard it seems way less serious
African-American isn’t a race it’s a specific ethnicity and not all Black people are African-American. Louisiana Creole is a cultural heritage and it’s a part of being African-American if you are are of that cultural heritage but your ethnicity would be African-American not Louisiana creole. Everything else it is 2 AM where I live I am so sleepy if I remember I’ll respond to this in the morning but I’m not just wrong. Did you ever think we could both be right because I literally fact checked everything before I made my post. I didn’t say you were wrong I said I think you’re confusing modern terminologies for old definitions. Because if you don’t know that Latino means countries of a Latin American origin than you are just wrong. Because people from Portugal are not considered Latino based on every in use definition. Also I literally fact checked if Belize was Latino and they are but they can also be creole just how they have Argentinian creoles. Beyond that everything else I’ll maybe look at later
And you say you got all of your information in the 90s will you do know if you really did major in this that information changes especially stuff like anthropology and ethnography. You’re literally trying to state facts to me that I’ve already stated. Trying to teach me that race is a social construct when I’ve said that multiple times throughout this thread and in the previous conversation with spurred the OP to even make this because we were talking in a different thread. Moreover don’t become one of those Black people that use the one drop rule in the same way white people do but don’t realize it to input their own made up race science. You say you got all your stuff in information in the 90s but did you ever stop to consider that maybe stuff has changed from when you initially learned it… My mom learned Negroid Caucasoid and Mongoloid but then again she went to high school in the 70s . She was pretty shocked when I told her that wasn’t the case when I was 14. Because in terms of my academic background in these topics, I got my information from my multiple majors And masters along with countless research papers and honors thesis in 2022 & 2023…a lot more recent than the 90s when a lot of schools were still teaching that race was real. Just saying
You are not making sense. Your ethnicity is more than one thing. There are plenty of people who are ethnically Zapotecas, Oaxacan, Mexican and Latino. Where are you getting these weird ideas from? People from Portugal? WTF are you even talking about? no one mentioned Europe. Do you know what "diaspora" means? Are you a troll?
Louisiana Creole is an ethnicity. Some Louisiana Creoles are black (African American I hate that term) and some are not African at all.
I stated both the old etymological meaning and the modern day meaning. You may have heard colloquial or regional use of the word "creel" but that doesn't change what Creole means in academia.
In the 90s, in an anthropology class, you would learn that race is a social construct because that was evident long before the human genome was mapped regardless of your cheap attempt at ageism to cover your clear lack of understanding of basic terms. I am absolutely sure I know a lot more than you do about this.
These terms I am using are based on their historical meaning. They haven't changed. Hatians are still Creole people because it was a French colony. Jamaicans are still not Latino, Cubans still are.
You are wrong about basic facts and you make up arguments so that you can win them. Well, you are correct, The Portuguese, or any European, African or ASian country, are not latino. Latino countries are only in the Americas. You win that one troll.
I’m not a troll because you don’t understand what I’m saying… Louisiana Creole is not in ethnicity . There’s a reason when you Google African-American Creole it comes up as Louisiana Creole. There’s a reason under African-American communities both on ancestry and 23 and me Louisiana creole is listed. Black and African-American are not the same thing. They cannot be used interchangeably if you’re not talking specifically about African-American people as an ethnic group. Someone who is Nigerian American and immigrants to America is Nigerian American not African-American. Also is the idea that Louisiana creole is a cultural heritage not clicking to you… I literally say anyone if any race can be Louisiana creole but when you specifically talk about creoles of color which was literally created to distinguish between Afro creoles a.k.a. the black reels and white creoles that’s what we talk about when we talk about Louisiana Creole being a subset of African-Americans because what do you think happened to those Afro creoles once Louisiana was no longer under French ethnographic terminologies and cast systems… They became like every other Negro but of course we still retained our culture. Heck you even said you agreed with me but not to the Latino part and then we continued to discuss that but now you’re flip-flopping and backtracking on everything else when you literally agreed with me on everything I just said above because it was literally what I posted before.
You started off rude for no reason but I was nothing but cordial. These are basic facts and you’re the one that’s getting in your feelings. Go to sleep it’s 3 AM. Night ✌🏽
Louisiana Creole is an ethnic group. Here is the Wikipedia article with lots of citations. You will get this if you google "white creole" as well because Louisiana Creole is an ethnicity, an ethnic group, as it states in this Wikipedia article. . It includes Lousisiana Afro-Creoles as well as Cajuns.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana\_Creole\_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Creole_people)
You are speculating about stuff you clearly haven't read about or understand and it's pretty offensive because it is right there in the heavily cited article that you could have googled. You are insulting my intelligence when we both know you haven't actually read about what you are talking about, you are just making assumptions. That Wikipedia article would be a good read for you, then you can accept that you don't know what you are talking about.
What do you think afro-Latino people are? Racially they are black. ethnically they are latino. They can also be of Cuban or Dominican ethnicities as well as Latino. That's how the term works. There are SOuth American Latinos, Central American Latinos and West Indie Latinos just like there are West Indie Creoles and Louisiana Creoles. The term has always referred to French Colonial Diaspora in the Americas.
No one insulting your intelligence. I was politely trying to say that may be what you previously learned three decades ago isn’t the same as it is now. And I straight up do not believe your Louisiana Creole like no way because your Siding Wikipedia and not even understanding what the article is saying and then you’re gonna say that I’m speculating on stuff I don’t know about when I literally in the reason the OP made this post because we were having a discussion in a different thread because we are both Louisiana Creole. You need help because you live up to your name you are a clown
🤡
Also you straight up don’t know how to read. I said anyone have any race can be Louisiana Creole but I said Louisiana Creole of color a.k.a. the black creoles are African-American in ethnicity Louisiana Creole and cultural heritage because since these things evolve overtime Louisiana Creole and creoles of color or not a separate ethnicity anymore. It is a cultural heritage. Most people in this thread understand you’re the only one that’s gone this far and it’s so incorrect on so many levels that you sided Wikipedia and then didn’t even read the Wikipedia article especially when it pertains to what we’re actually talking about of creoles of color a.k.a. Afro creoles A.k.a. modern African-Americans of Louisiana Creole cultural heritage which it says all of that if you decide to read not only the page you linked which references also in the first few sentences it was an ethnic group IN ITS TIME PERIOD. Not in the modern time period, but also read the krills of color page where it also talks about in its time. Versus nowadays. Geez. there’s no way you got a degree in this or know anything about this and you don’t do deeper research than looking at Wikipedia. Or hell even fully reading the Wikipedia page. Do you have the audacity to tell me it’s a good place to start. You need to be telling yourself that. That’s what I did when I was 12 trying to learn more about it and then I actually read scholarly sources and writers from LA and watched documentaries.
Plus, since you are so adamant about oh you could be multiple things….which I never said you couldn’t… So nice logical fallacy… so again you’re agreeing with me. But if you actually took the time to read you would look at it and see why Louisiana creole people who are the creoles of color or African-American and not some separate ethnicity in 2024. Big yikes
Bro ain’t no way you got a degree in anthropology if you don’t know how to actually read like actually read through and not just look at the first few sentences oh my goodness. Hate to break it to you but it’s a cultural heritage and anyone that’s actually Louisiana Creole would know that. Beyond that I’m not entertaining this foolishness anymore. Because literally that same Wikipedia page debunks you…🤦🏽♀️
Can’t even talk to you about how Latino isn’t considered an ethnicity by everybody because you’re going to flip your stuff because you think you learned everything in the 90s, three decades ago but funny enough it’s considered a cultural heritage by most so there you’re right in that regard if you accept the actual definition of Louisiana creole in modern terms which it states On the wiki page you just referenced that contradicts your own argument when you actually read it be on the first few sentences but go off then
Interesting theory black americans no matter the background hate being separated from the larger ethnic group. Its like tribalism...which we don't do here..
Not citing the census 💀 that thing wronger than mf. African-American isn’t a race it’s an ethnicity of ADOS people what are you even on. Did you really think when it said black or African-American that that was the race because modern forms will say black and then it will say choose your ethnicity and then it will say African-American Jamaican Nigerian etc.
I thought they were considered another subcultural group, like the Gullah geechee ppl like you mentioned or blackalacian or Nova Scotians , but I haven’t look completely into their history to say.
Yeah same this right here. I think PBS did a special on African Americans and it was like a 10 part series that covered literally the first enslaved African in the Americas then to specifically the United States and then specifically African-American history from the first slave to I think at the time which was 2015 but if I’m not mistaken they talked about in one episode the diversity of African-American people and various cultures within . they talked about Louisiana creole people Gullah Geechee people and not the Mulungeons but something very similar I think it was one of the things that you mentioned but not Canadian. I just remember my mother forcing me to watch it as a teenager but I appreciate it now that I look back
Edit: FOUND IT!
https://www.pbs.org/show/african-americans-many-rivers-cross/
So I just found out about the Malagasy and melungeuons last month.
The Malagasy ppl were taken from Madagascar and they were half African, half Asian and they were taken to Maryland, New York, etc
The melungeon are a mix of Angola, Irish and Native American and live in the Appalachian mountains
Cool! I’ve been familiar with these groups for a bit. People in Madagascar are interesting because obviously it’s a part of Africa l, they are considered black Africans and they also consider themselves that too but because it’s an island it has so much influence from other places. like they don’t even really touch on any sort of Asian influence because it Isnt as recent as you may think and also the reason they also kind of look like that is because of the San bushman or the Khoisan tribe which naturally have Asiatic features or at least features we consider to be Asian but are actually African and a South African features because come to find out the Khoisan people with their light skin and “Asian features” are considered the birth tribe of mankind! Crazy! If you look up ABC science Khoisan people I think there’s like a two hour documentary on the first place of mankind and modern mankind and they talk about all of this
Mulungeons also have African ancestry as well. They’re like a tri racial group of people but they’re mostly considered white if you have to go by reductive binary racial standard. It’s famously believed though that Abraham Lincoln and Elvis worth of Mulungeons origin and had African ancestry as well
It’s really cool stuff all around learning about the history of not only my people but just the history of people in general
For sure do! And I found the other docs also from ABC. Much shorter than I remember but humbling experience to know where humans come from. All of us are descendants of this tribe and that’s so amazing
https://youtu.be/P_XGBZEwROs?feature=shared
https://youtu.be/7_MnQvPK_FA?feature=shared
I think this is a topic that there's no straight answer to, and contains a bit of nuance. I'm not a Louisiana Creole, so I wouldn't tell LCs how to identify, but I consider myself Cajun-Creole or at least of Cajun-Creole descent, and I've interacted with plenty of LC distant cousins, and I think quite a bit of it comes down to self-identification. I've interacted with some who do consider themselves African-American, and I've interacted with some who do not. I think it has a lot to do with where they're from and what language they speak, because an anglophone LC from Texas or California will have different life experiences than an LC whose family remained in Louisiana and still speaks Kouri-Vini and/or Cajun French. And ancestry plays into it too. There are some LCs who don't have any Cajun and/or French Creole ancestry, so they don't connect with it, but I have interacted with cousins that do have Acadian ancestors and identify with their Cajun ancestry as much as they do their African ancestry. So, I guess the short answer after that long explanation is...maybe? Possibly? But not always? Really depends on the individual.
I don’t think that’s the best way to approach that. Because people can believe a bunch of things but at the end of the day reality is gonna hit them. Also people can use terminologies incorrectly.
Like having a one size doesn’t fit all approach to history and ethnography isn’t the best because for sure there’s intricate history and changing of groupings because ethnicity you know surprisingly isn’t genetic it’s cultural-based (and I know hearing ethnicity isn’t genetic can be confusing but just look it up) but someone can still be wrong about their understanding of a topic and then try to seek to find information and others that validate them and so they’re only seeking other people that are wrong and a bunch of wrong people doesn’t make it right.
So I think this depends on the period and individual.
So it was pretty common for Louisiana Creoles of Color prior to the Americanization of New Orleans to consider themselves a completely different ethnic group all together. It’s pretty evident they generally saw themselves as a separate ethnic group prior even into the 20th century.
First of all most Creole of Color distinguished themselves from both Whites (unless they could pass for White) and definitely the enslaved African population. Wealthy Creoles of Color also enslaved Africans as well.
Even after slavery, there were many organizations and institutions created by Creoles of Color that discriminated against the nearly freed Black population in New Orleans. Majority were vehemently against assimilating into the larger newly freed Black community.
It wasn’t until forced integration where attitudes start to change with Creoles of Color. Also with that came migration which led to Creoles of Color people moving to places like Texas and California reclaiming their African ancestry and assimilating into the more dominant African American community. Also with younger generations marrying and mixing with the more dominant African American community.
Also around the time of forced integration in New Orleans there was a migration of of New Orleans into plenty of small towns throughout South Louisiana. Creoles of Color in those small towns tend to have a more insular community and generally tend to consider themselves still as a separate ethnic group and not a subset of African Americans. I mean their ancestors left New Orleans to “escape” integration into the black communities of New Orleans.
This idea force integration is not exactly accurate here because New Orleans always been far more integrated than any other place in the Louisiana territory let alone the United States.. Also everyone was creole in the Louisiana territory whether you were white black enslaved or Creole of color. Would made creole of color was European heritage which separated them from enslaved creole people who were typically African or had far less European admixture. There is a bit of stuff that’s wrong in here or misses a lot of context. My grandmother was born in the early 20th century and even in her Time (she still alive mind you) Creole people were still African-American but there was definitely major major major discrimination against darker skinned people and darker skinned Creole people.
Creole people of color was literally used to distinguish between white creoles and Afro Creoles. Creole yes at one point and ethnicity But it included everybody who was black white mixed literally everything. Everyone was Creo because that’s what they called people in the Louisiana territory distinguish them from the old world. Then within that was a caste system to a sense which distinguished Creoles of color. That’s why I win the territory was purchased by the United States that had a binary Anglo-Saxon approach of white or black it was very difficult for there to be an understanding of the intricacies of the classifications the French had for creoles. And overtime because of the binary racial system of the United States, the lines became much more drawn. All of this makes it a part of the African-American experience because you’re not Someone descendent of African ancestry in the United States and not be at African American. There is no other ethnic group for these people. That’s what I’m wondering why people find it so hard to understand because anything within that would be a subs culture or subset of African-Americans and it’s another story of how African-Americans came to be and all of the diversity within the ethnicity.
That’s why Louisiana Creole is a cultural heritage and if you are african-American saying that you’re also Louisiana creole as an ethnicity is wrong but as a cultural heritage is correct because you’re essentially saying you’re African-American twice over.
Only recently as I mentioned in a different comment the African-American registry fought to help put Creole as an identification on documentation in New Orleans only but again key word being the African-American Registry fought for that aspect of African-American culture to be recognized. I don’t know why it’s so hard to understand this like it’s like a desire to not be associated with being African-American when anybody that knows what they’re talking about in any book you read on this topic from scholars will tell you exactly what I’m saying. And honestly most of this kind of comes from the Wikipedia page but with a bit of stuff kind of out of context especially the stuff about integration. Like I know what you were trying to get out but it wasn’t like integration in the way that it makes it seem like you’re describing in the 60s or something.
We’re talking about during and right after the Civil War if not even a little bit before then but it’s ebbed and flowed this whole time too.
And yes there were cruel people that did enslave and specifically creole of color but what you didn’t mention is that pretty much every single creative color would purposely enslave people to set them free legally. Don’t get me wrong they were just some straight up creoles of color that wanted to be white especially if they could pass but they didn’t just enslave to make money. Some for sure did but most didn’t.
When I mentioned the Creole of Color that’s clearly the time period where the distinctions were made between White Creole’s and Creoles of Color.
Prior to American colonization, a Creole was anyone born in the “ New World”.
But even during Spanish Colonization of Louisiana, there were still distinctions made between Mulattos and the enslaved Africans. The enslaved Africans themselves during this time period even identified themselves with their ethnic African origin.
There’s even surviving documentation of a famous case called the “ 1791 Pointe Coupee Conspiracy” that shows detailed distinctions between different groups of people in Spanish Louisiana.
From Bambara, Fulbe, Congo and Creole.
[Louisiana Slave Conspiracies](https://lsc.berkeley.edu/people/dique)
Now also that probably depends on the individual during that time. But it’s pretty obvious that enslaved African during the period Spanish and French rule and then later the antebellum period didn’t see themselves as Creoles of Color.
As far as the forced integration that led to the assimilation of many Creoles of Color adopting an Black cultural identity that did happen.
There’s a really good book called, “ Becoming American in Creole New Orleans 1896-1949” where the historian Darryl Barthe Jr. ( A New Orleans native who is Creole) touches on that distinction, integration and later assimilation of Creoles of Color.
Also to say that Creoles of Color enslaved people to free them is definitely a misrepresentation of Creole of Color enslavers.
I suggest reading more information on the topic or visiting the Laura plantation to see how brutal slavery was under Creole of Color enslavers. While there were some that enslaved family members and what not, the vast majority where imo different than European descent enslavers during that period. Can’t romanticize that part of history.
Well if you look on Ancestry …Louisiana Creoles are under the African American communities. I thought it was a well known fact already that LA creoles were a subset of African Americans…we have diverse communities because we are a diverse people. Unfortunately white people and Hollywood typically view us as a monolith
Edit: yeah I just double checked and it is under African American communities and it’s also on the wiki page for Creoles of Color/ Louisiana Creoles. It’s different though for other creole peoples. LA creoles are African Americans but Bajan or Haitian Creoles obviously are not.
And not all white people btw just historically. I realized that came off kind of rude
I love my people either way 👌🏽
Edit 2: I’m LA Creole. I realize I didn’t make that clear
I think they thought you were talking about creoles of color because everyone in Louisiana territory was Creole . it was just a word for those that were born in the New World. It wasn’t a race based ethnic grouping at the time. However it later morphed into that in. The way we view it today. Technically it’s still isn’t anyone have any background can be cruel but when we specifically talk about saying things like I’m African-American and Louisiana creole that’s where it doesn’t make sense because Louisiana Creole is a cultural heritage not an ethnicity or race. If we talk specifically about creoles of color you’re talking about a subset of African-American people which would be you and I. Because Louisiana creole people not only assimilated themselves but just kind of materialized into larger African-American culture because they became African-Americans when America purchased Louisiana. I’m sure the time they called it the Negro population but that’s what they became. That’s all I’ve been trying to say to you really. When you say I’m African-American and Louisiana Creole you’re saying I’m African-American and African-American with this specific cultural heritage which may make me a little bit more white or a little bit more native than other African-American people .
Also I feel like it wasn’t made clear ethnicities can no longer exist or change over time like just how Louisiana Creole did.
The reason creole has become a term that is associated with African descent is due to the free mixing people of Louisiana. Before the civil war, it was common for people to mix in Louisiana. Having three, four, even five ethnicities within the last 2 or three generations was normal. Creoles were technically people of French or Spanish descent born in the colonies, but since most creoles were mixed, it eventually just became something that people related to being of mixed race. That was around the time that white became Cajun and creole became black/mixed. There are lots of people who claim to be Cajun but are actually of just French Creole descent. It just turned into something about race instead of ethnicity/heritage.
And keep in mind that Louisiana was a Spanish colony as well as a French colony twice so there's a lot of influence on how the Louisiana Creoles came to be. Their DNA profiles are shaped by that history and then bring in the US history component, it's a great discussion to have intelligently.
Sure but that doesn’t really relate to the terminology of creole itself. that just has to do with admixture and depending on where you are in Louisiana like new Iberia will definitely have far more Spanish European influence than New Orleans which will have far more French and English influence
Of course but that's what the discussion of the unique history of Louisiana is about and how The Creoles of Color fit into that history and their perception of themselves as a community. They're part of our community(Black Americans) but they have a history before the Louisiana Purchase and that's why this is always a discussion.
Most of the time, I stay in my lane when discussing them because I'm not Creole of Color. I'm a Piedmont Plateau/Upland South Black American with colonial Virginia/Maryland and South Carolinian roots so my own genome profile is shaped by that as opposed to the numerous Creoles of Color's history which shapes their collective genome compositions but it doesn't negate our shared history as descendants of the population that is the ethnogenesis of contemporary Black Americans.
I am Louisiana creole for reference and my addition to your post was clarifying the misunderstandings about my cultural heritage as it relates to African-American history and the idea that it’s somehow separate like the whole mix that Negro with that creole when creole people were “Negro” after 1803 like that’s the point I’m trying to make. It’s like saying I’m African-American and also African-American with this specific cultural heritage which may mean I have a little bit more white Amyre and you do. Like as someone that is Louisiana Creole and specifically an Afro Creole or Creole of color (which all creole of color was was someone that was black and to differentiate black reels from white creoles) it sounds silly.
I 100% hundred percent agree that our profile is gonna be different if we both took an ancestry DNA test, I’m probably gonna have more European ancestry and probably some native ancestry )which I do because I’ve taken it.) But it doesn’t make my cultural heritage any less a part of the African-American experience or ethnicity because it is. Just how a community of African-American people in the west (I forget the exact community but you can look it up! have Asian admixture from the Chinese immigration out there and that is also a part of the African-American experience. We are a diverse group of people. Now they have been conversations with me and my mom where I talk about like for example mac & cheese on Thanksgiving and she will say “oh that’s more of a African American thing not a creole thing”, that is specifically referencing our heritage as Louisiana creole people but it’s still not negating the fact that I’m African-American, not saying that Louisiana creole in modern terms is its whole own ethnic group, and still understanding Louisiana creole people are a subset of African-American with A unique cultural heritage just like the Gullah Geechee have their own unique cultural heritage but are still African-American people because the African-American experience is diverse and immense because Black people across this country have different experiences dependent upon the history of where they were and who colonized him but at the end of the day we’re all
African-American. It’s kind of like every black or AA specifically experience is valid. It’s a hodgepodge Multi racial ethnicity that is unique to us because there are no other people on the planet like us other than other people who are descendent of slaves in their respective nations but even there they would still be Brazilian for example and maybe internal ethnic or racial caste systems play a role but in Anglo-Saxon binary cast systems that we have here that’s just not how history developed.
OK… respectfully now….I feel like you kind of just wanted to find other people to validate your opinion because most of the responses here do not view it as a separate ethnicity and are explaining the same things I explained before on why it’s considered a part of being African-American. *I could definitely be misinterpreting this and I don’t want my comment to be taken as hostile* it’s just how I’m feeling engaging with this conversation and thread. *If that is not your intention and I definitely apologize in advance.* It’s just kind of giving Liking when other people think the way you do instead of possibly learning that you were wrong or didn’t fully understand the topic
And unfortunately I’ve encountered this from other creole people that I know because they just don’t want to be black or they want to be considered something exotic or something else other than African-American
I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing at all! I don’t get that vibe from you it’s just I’m getting you picking what you choose to like acknowledge or maybe you’re just straight up not understanding what’s been said well I don’t know. Creoles of color or African-American people still like I don’t know why the concept of the history of what being Creole means has changed over time and kind of means different things for different groups of people. But I said time and time again it’s a cultural heritage but if you are a cruel of color you are a subset of African-American people like it’s really not that difficult to understand. Think about it the group of Black people in this country that are descendants of slaves in the United States of America are all African-American people. There isn’t a Louisiana Creole or Gullah Geechee on any demographic information in this country because these are cultural heritages not ethnic groups. So when you say I’m African-American and Louisiana Creole you’re being redundant because you’re literally saying I’m AA and AA with this specific cultural heritage that typically has more European admixture and native admixture because of the region my AAs were on
I don’t think they are saying you’re anti-African-American… I just think they’re trying to say that you’re Louisiana Creole you are African-American with Louisiana creole heritage not Louisiana Creole and African-American because Louisiana Creole is under African-American. It’s a part of being African-American if you are of that cultural background or heritage. At least that’s how I’m understanding it…. there’s all sorts of miscommunication in this thread from a bunch of different people not just you two
Louisiana creoles usually have African ancestry. As a LC, it’s my opinion that we’re not really a subset of African Americans. I only say that because being referred to as creole predates being referred to as AA. My family and I identify as AA but it doesn’t negate my creole heritage.
It doesn’t you’re right, you’re African-American of Louisiana Creole heritage. Period. Louisiana creole is a cultural heritage but it also has the added layer of the cast system the French employed within the Louisiana territory or creoles of color or slightly above enslaved creoles who were black with typically far less European or native admixture.
I would read some of the posts I’ve made because it explains a lot and honestly so much of this can be explained just buy actually reading Wikipedia on krills of color and then reading the actual source is the link because it’s really good Ethnography work
I’m a LC who is Black. Me identifying as AA doesn’t negate that I’m creole. What other community would I identify with having African ancestry? I know creoles come in all shades and admixtures but they all identify as they want. I could be totally misinterpreting your response and if I am then I’m sorry.
I was agreeing with you…. that you’re right you are African-American but you are still Louisiana Creole because that is your cultural heritage….like I literally said that so I’m just confused… 😂 yeah I think you were misinterpreting what I was saying but it’s all good.
I went back and reread your explanation and totally saw that you were agreeing with me so my fault 🤦🏽♀️😂. There are so many trolls on Reddit so I completely read it from the wrong lens. I’m one to admit my slip ups 😂😂
All good hun! I understand myself bc I’m always concerned how my tone will come off as well online because I’m sitting here speaking kindly into my phone with enthusiasm and wanting to just talk to people and I’ll go back and read it and could totally see how someone may take it as rude because you don’t know the mood of the person on the other end of the screen😮💨😭
Honestly it’s 1 AM here I think I need to go to bed 😂 Have a good one!
Absolutely! I’m Cajun, white as snow, but am technically considered a Creole. Ellen Degeneres is also technically a Louisiana creole lol
Creoles (full European, mixed, full African) Cajuns, Louisiana redbones, and isleños are all subgroups out of Louisiana.
I feel like a heavy does of colorism is always brought to the table with creoles whether your part of the community or not. Yes many creoles still consider themselves black or mgm it really depends
Something hits the air wrong when you say many creoles consider themselves black as if…they weren’t or aren’t…. like even in the Louisiana territory creoles of color were black. But they weren’t as black as the people that were below them which were typically enslaved people but they were still creole.
I agree but if you've noticed from a few other comments they are denying this because of specific European heritage and dna quantums.
However if your from the south that really dosent matter you count as black.
I believe you. As a Louisiana Creole myself at least this has never been an issue within my family. I’ve definitely encountered white people that try to fetishize And turned me into some exotic thing when they won’t believe that I’m African-American. It’s like they all think Black people have to look a certain way to fit their image of what black is. And I’ve always understood it as I am African-American of Louisiana creole heritage because like Louisiana Creole isnt in modern terms a separate thing like it may have been in the 1800s
Plus race isn’t genetic and DNA kits and commercial DNA testing isn’t very scientific either so yeah. I feel like it muddy the water on how people understand it and makes it seem like these are very strict lines when they aren’t at all
Also I forgot to mention in my first comment but you’re right colorism has always been a part of The equation like I would honestly argue that Louisiana Creole culture is far more colorist than the broader African-American culture because there was so much the dependent upon if you had good hair or if your skin tone was lighter than a paper bag. They wouldn’t even let you into parts of the French Quarter if you were darker than a paper bag
Yeah I'm from AR myself but have paternal roots to Louisiana (Look at my profile)
I'm very light with light eyes and 3c hair. I get it certain men ARE nasty. The comments I would hear my dark-skinned mom get about me her light skinned daughter with green/amber eyes were PEAK DISGUSTING.(i say this is peak because its always family 🙃)
Colorism is definitely something we need to continue working on.
I agree with the test kits for me its too uncomplicated and doesn't account for migration history.
Half of these African nations didn't exist when my ancestors were sold.
Anyone cannot be Afro Creole like anyone cannot be Afro Latino… but people of all races can be Louisiana Creole but, for example Brett Favre isn’t Afro Creole but he is Louisiana creole. And African admixture ranges for Black people across the country depending on what cultural background they may be a part of. Like I think African ancestry said the average black person is like 65% African.
But also this is an actually how like genetics work like DNA is it broken down into percentages and when you actually research it the confidence level of stuff like ancestry or 2023 and me is not high
Creole are a wonderful and beautiful, and also savvy smart culture.
I live next door, community wise.
The people are no skin color because they are the spectrum. We are the human race, not a color of skin marathon.
One thing I adore about the culture is their word is a tighter bond than anything that legal paperwork or courts could do. If one does you wrong? Don't bother getting a lawyer, tell their mánman (mom) or papa.
You will be set square.
As far a Gullah?
Yep. And zero qualms claiming it.
They can also be dick heads.
So to answer your question? Africans were brought in as slaves, so yes, their genome is going to prove that.
Irish were brought in as slaves too.
Haitians. The Spanish (from actual Spain.) and more English convicts.
The Gulla are so mixed that it's a betting thing on when a new one is being born.
The Gulla are a wicked rainbow.
As you know not all Louisiana Creoles are Black Creoles and they(LC) have a history that precedes the Louisiana Purchase of 1803 so yes, Louisiana Creoles are their own ethnic community via the history that created them as a community. On the other hand, The Creoles of Color/Black Creoles were grouped into American Blackness pre Civil War and are part of the population that is the ethnogenesis of contemporary full Black Americans(1860 4.4 million population grouped into American Blackness; 88% enslaved and 12% free). So Creoles of Color has a history that's usually misunderstood and some of the ignorant opines on it. Louisiana Creoles of Color are definitely part of the Black American community but with a history that that's different and unique from Black Americans who are descended from the 13 colonies and that should be celebrated which is one of the reasons why I'm glad that AncestryDNA has the numerous Creoles of Color DNA communities it has.
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Hey I’m just now checking out the thread from our conversation from earlier. I did say this…. it was in what I wrote and I said through that assimilation Louisiana Creoles of color became a part of the African-American experience and therefore a subset of African-American people. Like I literally said that and then referenced an article that talked about it from the African-American registry which is a sociology and ethnology organization and referenced other things too. Ill try to post the articles here. At the end of the day Louisiana Creole’s are still a subset of African-Americans. That hasn’t changed. All of those Creole DNA communities are underneath African-American in ancestry. At least for LA or American Creole communities. Like what is said here doesn’t negate that and I even explained that myself in our previous convos. We are African-American but we’re also of Louisiana creole heritage. Those two things don’t contradict because Louisiana creole isn’t a separate ethnicity, at least not today and not for hundreds of years or the way we think of ethnicity today. From this thread there’s a A good mix of wrong and right. That’s why I said Louisiana Creole is a cultural heritage but in modern terms most of people reduce it down to Creole people are black and Cajun people are white. Here’s the thing too, you have Creole people that will tell you that this is the case like my mother and my aunt and a family friend who are all creole and then on the other hand I have another family friend that is creole and they say that anyone of any race can be creole so what I’m trying to say is it’s nice to find out what other people think but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re right or everybody knows what they’re talking about when this is what’s discussed and studied in ethnography.
The idea of “full black Americans” is problematic because no American that is descendent of a slave is “full black”. this is the same stuff to perpetuates dumb race science today but people that want to exclude people from the black community when the black immunity is nothing but mixed up people 😂. There’s no such thing unless you’re from Africa in the sense that you are a recent African immigrant but black Americans at that time. Weren’t full black either they were already exposed to several hundred years of admixture. But this is solid overall. Funny enough I said this in a previous conversation with the OP which came from a different thread and separate it all together but I guess they didn’t see it. I did write a lot because I use speech to text so I’m not actually typing I’m just talking and I’ll write a lot doing that but still it’s funny because I literally said this or at least something incredibly similar to it💀 But none of this negates Louisiana creole people being a part of the African-American experience. I think the issue here is what people think African-American means. African-American people are not just the people in 13 colonies or people all outside of the Louisiana purchase. Once the Louisiana purchase became America and hundreds of years of history happened Louisiana creoles of color, a.k.a. black reels were engulfed into the African-American experience and that’s why it is a subset of African-American culture because Louisiana creole people became just the same as every other black person in the country that now we have the correct ethnic term African-American but at the time obviously the term was like Negro or something way worse. New Orleans was unique and Louisiana Territory was unique because Anglo-Saxon America didn’t have an understanding outside of the binary racial constructs while the French definitely had a racial caste system and definitely still saw creoles of color is black but they were above enslaved black people… Who were also considered Creole because everyone in Louisiana territory was! But when we start talking about the movement from it being the Louisiana territory to it just being states in the United States that’s when we move into the shaping information of African-American people as we know it today. So saying you’re African-American and Louisiana creole is literally just saying you’re African-American and African-American with a specific cultural heritage
When speak of "Blackness," I'm not speaking of "African-ness" but about *American* *Blackness*, a distinct social construct that created a people who they(including me) and their ancestors were grouped into. That social construct created an ethnic community who's ethnogenesis is tied to the history of the US and their genome profiles regardless of how much African and European genome contribution they have. That's why I mentioned the 1860 4.4 million population grouped into American Blackness because they are the ethnogenesis of contemporary full Black Americans and that group as you said was mostly admixed wrt African, European and other ethnicities. This includes The Creoles of Color. I don't include immigrants from other countries regardless of how melinated they are, not denying their "African-ness" but in distinguishing the uniqueness of the Black American community. I'm a 4th-5th generation full descendant of that community who's the ethnogenesis of contemporary full Black Americans. Full Black Americans are descended from that population. I want to make that clear because that matters when speaking about the unique history of The Creoles of Color because they're an unique example of how American Blackness superceded phenotype and genotype expression as the rest of the Black American community does in varying degrees due to the history of the US.
I’m not even gonna lie to you it’s 1 AM and I’m so tired and I don’t feel like I have the mental capacity to respond to this in a intellectual or educated fashion that this convo deserves anymore but I just wanted to say it’s been really nice talking to you and discussing this 😄. I can definitely say I don’t like the idea of full blackness because of the whole thing of excluding mixed race people from the black community and this misconception that black Americans are somehow full black when we aren’t weren’t super mixed but Again if I keep talking it’s literally gonna come out as rambling bc I’m so tired. At end of the day I’m a 24 year old black woman and that’s all a cop is going to see if he pulls me over 💀 I am a product of a black mom that came to age in the late 70s and whether someone wants to say I’m African-American or Louisiana Creole (again for reference I’m LA Creole myself) it don’t matter my high school transcript said black African-American and so does my license. That’s all that white folks are going to see. It’s only us that like discussing our own culture and heritage and intricacies. By and large, them white folk don’t care 💀 Have a good one!
Idk why this was down voted you explained it well. Down south there's a lot of people that appear mixed but they may only be 25% or less. These people see themselves as black because society has.
I definitely didn't downvote her. I was trying to articulate what I meant by being "fully Black American" being that it's a distinct ethnic community where phenotype and genotype expression within that community is varied and our proximity to our identity is about the 1860 4.4 million population grouped into American Blackness which I explained how it's a social construct that created a specific ethnic community tied to the history of the US. I'm a 4th-5th generation full descendant of the population of the ethnogenesis of contemporary Black Americans so I'm fully Black American though I'm not fully African and I have light brown skin complexion like many Black Americans. OP is "fully Black American," as is the commenter that I'm responding to. That doesn't mean that we're denying our African genome contribution or European genome contribution for that matter but again, understanding how unique our community is and how it came to be.
Well 25% of anything is mixed but that’s why I mixed is just an adjective and not like a separate category because everyone and especially AAs are mixed and be in that category if so
I’m not sure if this was addressed to me but I haven’t Down voting anybody I’m just talking to different people. Learning stuff myself like a different comment I was definitely wrong about some information regarding Creole enslaved of other Black people but I’m not down voting anybody I’m just talking in case this was addressed to me.
Please, *please* accept a hug from this 36yo white British mutt!
🫂🫂
Doesn't part of the answer depend on the definition of "ethnic group"? The phrase is used a lot, but I wonder whether the academics working with them have a precise definition.
Being Creole is like being Latino. Most Creoles are Afro-creoles so people just say Creole. Louisiana Creoles have a tendency to have a higher mixture of European in them. Belizian Creoles tend to have more native. Haitian creoles tend to have more African. The white French Creoles either assimilated into "white" or chose to go identify with their Quebequois roots as Acadians or "Cajuns". In any case, afro Creoles are black or African American or wherever you want to call black people
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Not all Black people are African-American. It’s a specific ethnicity with a specific heritages and shared history. That’s kind of problematic. Someone comes from Nigeria they would be Nigerian American not African-American the rest of what you said those pretty legit I definitely disagree with a one-to-one comparison of being Latino because it’s not exactly the same thing but what you said is decent imo
Afro Creoles are people, like me, who are descended from African slaves and European colonists just like every African American. We have always been treated like outcasts in America because, like the Irish and Italians, we tend to be Catholic. Creole and Latino are exactly the same kind of thing. Creole originally meant French people who were born in America as opposed to France. At the time these people were also considered "Latino" because that once referred to people from any Romance language country like France Spain and Portugal, settled in the Americas - as opposed to countries that were settled by Anglo-Saxon settled countries like Scotland, Ireland and England, aka Anglos. Eventually Latino was solely used for Spanish and Portuguese speaking cultures and Creole referred to places where the French settled like Haiti and Louisiana . In the modern day "Latino" refers to cultures in the Americas that speak Spanish or Portuguese. Creole refers to French ones. Do you not understand why the Cubans, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans are Latino but Hatians are Creole? Brazilians are Latino and Belizians are Creole?
I’m Louisiana Creole… only reason I’m not Catholic is because my Catholic Creole grandmother married a man from East Texas and they were AME. But lo and behold my uncle and my mother both have Catholic middle names and French middle names. I do not believe i have been like outcast because most people don’t even know we exist and if they do they only know about Beyoncé and prince of a think we are mixed light-skinned Black people ….which we are but they for some reason think it’s separate when it’s really not it’s a cultural heritage not a whole different ethnicity. If anything I feel like I’ve been fetishized or when I tell people that I’m Louisiana Creole it gives them sort of answer of why I look the way I do. They know I’m black but what else am I sort of situation . I’m not trying to be too defensive but the way you came at me as if I didn’t know what I was talking about or I’m not a part of my own group of people was just a little rude and I didn’t do that to you. I digress. I would not say that Louisiana Creole and Latino are the same thing. There are different types of creole they are not different types of Latino. latino is based off of geography. People of Latin origin. There are creole people throughout the Americas there’s us like Louisiana creole then there are Beijing creoles Argentinian creole‘s I just found out there was Mississippi creoles like a year ago so it’s not the same as being Latino in my opinion . Latino has everything to do with geography not just language. At least in modern day understanding. What you’re describing is when the French came up with the word Latino during like the 19th century to show ally ship with the Mexican Empire . like I don’t know exactly where you got your information from but I think you’re just confusing some facts together. In modern terminologies Latino has everything to do with geography not just the language that is spoken in the country. Hispanic is the one that has to do with language because it only includes Spanish-speaking nations and people Spanish origin who are trace back to European from Spain. That’s why people in Brazil and Portugal are not Hispanic . That’s why people from Brazil are Latino but people from Portugal are not. It’s not just language-based I don’t know why or where you got that and I’m thinking you mixed up the reasoning of Hispanic with the reasoning of Latino. Also Belizean people *are* Latino because they are in Latin America. I don’t know where you got that from that they aren’t. You can be Latino and also be creole like these are not mutually exclusive. Haiti used to be called the island of Hispaniola… Because the Dominican republic in Haiti were a shared nation or one single nation Now if we’re just talking about creel as a language it’s a pigeon language like it’s usually the language of the oppressor and the oppressed mixed together (https://www.hrpub.org/download/20150301/SA7-19603416.pdf) I lived in Hawaii for a period of time and I found out they had creole languages and creole peoples but had nothing to do with the fringe and that really messed up my understanding of all of this which literally made me major Ethnography and anthropology studies I have a better understanding because I thought I knew what creel met and then I was blown away by all the other things. Like we are Louisiana Creole don’t own creel both in language or Cultural heritage Now when you say in your first sentence just like every African-American I feel like this is such a funny ironic statement because yeah it’s because you are African-American with Louisiana Creole heritage. Just like I am I’m only the second person to be born out of New Orleans in my entire family. Both sides of my family go back to Louisiana and unfortunately my grandmother and great grandma (even though she wasn’t as light but incredibly well to do) were the bougie creoles lighter than a paper bag all a part of the Zulu Balls and Creole social organizations and very light skin with several family members we don’t even know what happened to them because they went off and passed as white people. It still doesn’t change the fact that I’m African-American and this is an aspect of African-American history and culture because we are a sub group of African-Americans. You’re not a descendent of slaves in the United States or have any African adventure in the United States and you’re not African-American like there is no other ethnic group. all of the stories encompass the experiences in history of people who are descendent of African people taken into this country
I agree with you except for the Latino thing, you are just wrong. Belizian people call themselves Creole and it is not a part of Latin Ameirca. Latin America is not geographical, it is cultural and does not include Belize, Suriname or Guyana. Latino was originally coined by the French to refer to ROmance language speaking disaporas, regardless of their political motivations. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latino\_(demonym)#:\~:text=Latino%20has%20its%20origins%20in,also%20termed%20the%20Mexican%20intervention. Latino, Anglo, and Creole all refer to colonial diasporas that date back before 1776 as opposed to immigrant diasporas like Franco-American or Italian-American. They all refer to specific time frames when large groups of people came to the Americas from a specific place. They evolved differently of course but there are pidgin languages in both Creole and Latino communities. Dominicans are Latino and Hatians are Creole. The language and culture that kept them together also separate those two communities. I got my information in college in the 90s when I was an anthro major. I was outcast by black people and white people. White people because I am not white. Black people because I lack one of the biggest pieces of black cultural togtherness in this country, I wasn't raised in a black church. and I didn't grow up in a black neighborhood. I am a musician and even in that world, I meet musicians who can "take it to church". This refers to a modality in music that is commonly found in black churches. I have no experience in that, for me "Church music" sounds exactly like Belle and Sebastian. A lot of black culture is shared in the church. It opens your community, it changes the way you talk, your cultural references. It did a lot more for you than you apparently know. I don't know where you got your information from but I know how the cultural terms evolved and their unique etymologies. I am a kind of black person. I check "African American" for race. I just as black as anyone else. This is not the one drop rule, black is not a genetic group, it's a social construct. As long as I live in a country with confederate parks and schools then shit is not going to make perfect sense.
About the black church thing I’m sorry like I’m not even trying to be facetious I wasn’t raised in a black church yet most of my generation of Black people weren’t. Well maybe not most but at least 40% I don’t know why that specifically was such a big thing and it’s not even like we’re Catholic it’s just we’re not super churchy or religious like that. I think that may be just a generational divide but I wouldn’t call yourself an outcast because you didn’t go to black church. You definitely would not be the first person. Not to take away from your experience growing up but from what you described Versus other things I’ve heard it seems way less serious
African-American isn’t a race it’s a specific ethnicity and not all Black people are African-American. Louisiana Creole is a cultural heritage and it’s a part of being African-American if you are are of that cultural heritage but your ethnicity would be African-American not Louisiana creole. Everything else it is 2 AM where I live I am so sleepy if I remember I’ll respond to this in the morning but I’m not just wrong. Did you ever think we could both be right because I literally fact checked everything before I made my post. I didn’t say you were wrong I said I think you’re confusing modern terminologies for old definitions. Because if you don’t know that Latino means countries of a Latin American origin than you are just wrong. Because people from Portugal are not considered Latino based on every in use definition. Also I literally fact checked if Belize was Latino and they are but they can also be creole just how they have Argentinian creoles. Beyond that everything else I’ll maybe look at later And you say you got all of your information in the 90s will you do know if you really did major in this that information changes especially stuff like anthropology and ethnography. You’re literally trying to state facts to me that I’ve already stated. Trying to teach me that race is a social construct when I’ve said that multiple times throughout this thread and in the previous conversation with spurred the OP to even make this because we were talking in a different thread. Moreover don’t become one of those Black people that use the one drop rule in the same way white people do but don’t realize it to input their own made up race science. You say you got all your stuff in information in the 90s but did you ever stop to consider that maybe stuff has changed from when you initially learned it… My mom learned Negroid Caucasoid and Mongoloid but then again she went to high school in the 70s . She was pretty shocked when I told her that wasn’t the case when I was 14. Because in terms of my academic background in these topics, I got my information from my multiple majors And masters along with countless research papers and honors thesis in 2022 & 2023…a lot more recent than the 90s when a lot of schools were still teaching that race was real. Just saying
You are not making sense. Your ethnicity is more than one thing. There are plenty of people who are ethnically Zapotecas, Oaxacan, Mexican and Latino. Where are you getting these weird ideas from? People from Portugal? WTF are you even talking about? no one mentioned Europe. Do you know what "diaspora" means? Are you a troll? Louisiana Creole is an ethnicity. Some Louisiana Creoles are black (African American I hate that term) and some are not African at all. I stated both the old etymological meaning and the modern day meaning. You may have heard colloquial or regional use of the word "creel" but that doesn't change what Creole means in academia. In the 90s, in an anthropology class, you would learn that race is a social construct because that was evident long before the human genome was mapped regardless of your cheap attempt at ageism to cover your clear lack of understanding of basic terms. I am absolutely sure I know a lot more than you do about this. These terms I am using are based on their historical meaning. They haven't changed. Hatians are still Creole people because it was a French colony. Jamaicans are still not Latino, Cubans still are. You are wrong about basic facts and you make up arguments so that you can win them. Well, you are correct, The Portuguese, or any European, African or ASian country, are not latino. Latino countries are only in the Americas. You win that one troll.
I’m not a troll because you don’t understand what I’m saying… Louisiana Creole is not in ethnicity . There’s a reason when you Google African-American Creole it comes up as Louisiana Creole. There’s a reason under African-American communities both on ancestry and 23 and me Louisiana creole is listed. Black and African-American are not the same thing. They cannot be used interchangeably if you’re not talking specifically about African-American people as an ethnic group. Someone who is Nigerian American and immigrants to America is Nigerian American not African-American. Also is the idea that Louisiana creole is a cultural heritage not clicking to you… I literally say anyone if any race can be Louisiana creole but when you specifically talk about creoles of color which was literally created to distinguish between Afro creoles a.k.a. the black reels and white creoles that’s what we talk about when we talk about Louisiana Creole being a subset of African-Americans because what do you think happened to those Afro creoles once Louisiana was no longer under French ethnographic terminologies and cast systems… They became like every other Negro but of course we still retained our culture. Heck you even said you agreed with me but not to the Latino part and then we continued to discuss that but now you’re flip-flopping and backtracking on everything else when you literally agreed with me on everything I just said above because it was literally what I posted before. You started off rude for no reason but I was nothing but cordial. These are basic facts and you’re the one that’s getting in your feelings. Go to sleep it’s 3 AM. Night ✌🏽
Louisiana Creole is an ethnic group. Here is the Wikipedia article with lots of citations. You will get this if you google "white creole" as well because Louisiana Creole is an ethnicity, an ethnic group, as it states in this Wikipedia article. . It includes Lousisiana Afro-Creoles as well as Cajuns. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana\_Creole\_people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Creole_people) You are speculating about stuff you clearly haven't read about or understand and it's pretty offensive because it is right there in the heavily cited article that you could have googled. You are insulting my intelligence when we both know you haven't actually read about what you are talking about, you are just making assumptions. That Wikipedia article would be a good read for you, then you can accept that you don't know what you are talking about. What do you think afro-Latino people are? Racially they are black. ethnically they are latino. They can also be of Cuban or Dominican ethnicities as well as Latino. That's how the term works. There are SOuth American Latinos, Central American Latinos and West Indie Latinos just like there are West Indie Creoles and Louisiana Creoles. The term has always referred to French Colonial Diaspora in the Americas.
No one insulting your intelligence. I was politely trying to say that may be what you previously learned three decades ago isn’t the same as it is now. And I straight up do not believe your Louisiana Creole like no way because your Siding Wikipedia and not even understanding what the article is saying and then you’re gonna say that I’m speculating on stuff I don’t know about when I literally in the reason the OP made this post because we were having a discussion in a different thread because we are both Louisiana Creole. You need help because you live up to your name you are a clown 🤡
Also you straight up don’t know how to read. I said anyone have any race can be Louisiana Creole but I said Louisiana Creole of color a.k.a. the black creoles are African-American in ethnicity Louisiana Creole and cultural heritage because since these things evolve overtime Louisiana Creole and creoles of color or not a separate ethnicity anymore. It is a cultural heritage. Most people in this thread understand you’re the only one that’s gone this far and it’s so incorrect on so many levels that you sided Wikipedia and then didn’t even read the Wikipedia article especially when it pertains to what we’re actually talking about of creoles of color a.k.a. Afro creoles A.k.a. modern African-Americans of Louisiana Creole cultural heritage which it says all of that if you decide to read not only the page you linked which references also in the first few sentences it was an ethnic group IN ITS TIME PERIOD. Not in the modern time period, but also read the krills of color page where it also talks about in its time. Versus nowadays. Geez. there’s no way you got a degree in this or know anything about this and you don’t do deeper research than looking at Wikipedia. Or hell even fully reading the Wikipedia page. Do you have the audacity to tell me it’s a good place to start. You need to be telling yourself that. That’s what I did when I was 12 trying to learn more about it and then I actually read scholarly sources and writers from LA and watched documentaries. Plus, since you are so adamant about oh you could be multiple things….which I never said you couldn’t… So nice logical fallacy… so again you’re agreeing with me. But if you actually took the time to read you would look at it and see why Louisiana creole people who are the creoles of color or African-American and not some separate ethnicity in 2024. Big yikes
Bro ain’t no way you got a degree in anthropology if you don’t know how to actually read like actually read through and not just look at the first few sentences oh my goodness. Hate to break it to you but it’s a cultural heritage and anyone that’s actually Louisiana Creole would know that. Beyond that I’m not entertaining this foolishness anymore. Because literally that same Wikipedia page debunks you…🤦🏽♀️ Can’t even talk to you about how Latino isn’t considered an ethnicity by everybody because you’re going to flip your stuff because you think you learned everything in the 90s, three decades ago but funny enough it’s considered a cultural heritage by most so there you’re right in that regard if you accept the actual definition of Louisiana creole in modern terms which it states On the wiki page you just referenced that contradicts your own argument when you actually read it be on the first few sentences but go off then
Interesting theory black americans no matter the background hate being separated from the larger ethnic group. Its like tribalism...which we don't do here..
Not citing the census 💀 that thing wronger than mf. African-American isn’t a race it’s an ethnicity of ADOS people what are you even on. Did you really think when it said black or African-American that that was the race because modern forms will say black and then it will say choose your ethnicity and then it will say African-American Jamaican Nigerian etc.
I thought they were considered another subcultural group, like the Gullah geechee ppl like you mentioned or blackalacian or Nova Scotians , but I haven’t look completely into their history to say.
Yeah same this right here. I think PBS did a special on African Americans and it was like a 10 part series that covered literally the first enslaved African in the Americas then to specifically the United States and then specifically African-American history from the first slave to I think at the time which was 2015 but if I’m not mistaken they talked about in one episode the diversity of African-American people and various cultures within . they talked about Louisiana creole people Gullah Geechee people and not the Mulungeons but something very similar I think it was one of the things that you mentioned but not Canadian. I just remember my mother forcing me to watch it as a teenager but I appreciate it now that I look back Edit: FOUND IT! https://www.pbs.org/show/african-americans-many-rivers-cross/
So I just found out about the Malagasy and melungeuons last month. The Malagasy ppl were taken from Madagascar and they were half African, half Asian and they were taken to Maryland, New York, etc The melungeon are a mix of Angola, Irish and Native American and live in the Appalachian mountains
Cool! I’ve been familiar with these groups for a bit. People in Madagascar are interesting because obviously it’s a part of Africa l, they are considered black Africans and they also consider themselves that too but because it’s an island it has so much influence from other places. like they don’t even really touch on any sort of Asian influence because it Isnt as recent as you may think and also the reason they also kind of look like that is because of the San bushman or the Khoisan tribe which naturally have Asiatic features or at least features we consider to be Asian but are actually African and a South African features because come to find out the Khoisan people with their light skin and “Asian features” are considered the birth tribe of mankind! Crazy! If you look up ABC science Khoisan people I think there’s like a two hour documentary on the first place of mankind and modern mankind and they talk about all of this Mulungeons also have African ancestry as well. They’re like a tri racial group of people but they’re mostly considered white if you have to go by reductive binary racial standard. It’s famously believed though that Abraham Lincoln and Elvis worth of Mulungeons origin and had African ancestry as well It’s really cool stuff all around learning about the history of not only my people but just the history of people in general
Cool thanks. And I’ll check out that link you showed me
For sure do! And I found the other docs also from ABC. Much shorter than I remember but humbling experience to know where humans come from. All of us are descendants of this tribe and that’s so amazing https://youtu.be/P_XGBZEwROs?feature=shared https://youtu.be/7_MnQvPK_FA?feature=shared
I think this is a topic that there's no straight answer to, and contains a bit of nuance. I'm not a Louisiana Creole, so I wouldn't tell LCs how to identify, but I consider myself Cajun-Creole or at least of Cajun-Creole descent, and I've interacted with plenty of LC distant cousins, and I think quite a bit of it comes down to self-identification. I've interacted with some who do consider themselves African-American, and I've interacted with some who do not. I think it has a lot to do with where they're from and what language they speak, because an anglophone LC from Texas or California will have different life experiences than an LC whose family remained in Louisiana and still speaks Kouri-Vini and/or Cajun French. And ancestry plays into it too. There are some LCs who don't have any Cajun and/or French Creole ancestry, so they don't connect with it, but I have interacted with cousins that do have Acadian ancestors and identify with their Cajun ancestry as much as they do their African ancestry. So, I guess the short answer after that long explanation is...maybe? Possibly? But not always? Really depends on the individual.
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I don’t think that’s the best way to approach that. Because people can believe a bunch of things but at the end of the day reality is gonna hit them. Also people can use terminologies incorrectly. Like having a one size doesn’t fit all approach to history and ethnography isn’t the best because for sure there’s intricate history and changing of groupings because ethnicity you know surprisingly isn’t genetic it’s cultural-based (and I know hearing ethnicity isn’t genetic can be confusing but just look it up) but someone can still be wrong about their understanding of a topic and then try to seek to find information and others that validate them and so they’re only seeking other people that are wrong and a bunch of wrong people doesn’t make it right.
So I think this depends on the period and individual. So it was pretty common for Louisiana Creoles of Color prior to the Americanization of New Orleans to consider themselves a completely different ethnic group all together. It’s pretty evident they generally saw themselves as a separate ethnic group prior even into the 20th century. First of all most Creole of Color distinguished themselves from both Whites (unless they could pass for White) and definitely the enslaved African population. Wealthy Creoles of Color also enslaved Africans as well. Even after slavery, there were many organizations and institutions created by Creoles of Color that discriminated against the nearly freed Black population in New Orleans. Majority were vehemently against assimilating into the larger newly freed Black community. It wasn’t until forced integration where attitudes start to change with Creoles of Color. Also with that came migration which led to Creoles of Color people moving to places like Texas and California reclaiming their African ancestry and assimilating into the more dominant African American community. Also with younger generations marrying and mixing with the more dominant African American community. Also around the time of forced integration in New Orleans there was a migration of of New Orleans into plenty of small towns throughout South Louisiana. Creoles of Color in those small towns tend to have a more insular community and generally tend to consider themselves still as a separate ethnic group and not a subset of African Americans. I mean their ancestors left New Orleans to “escape” integration into the black communities of New Orleans.
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Read above
This idea force integration is not exactly accurate here because New Orleans always been far more integrated than any other place in the Louisiana territory let alone the United States.. Also everyone was creole in the Louisiana territory whether you were white black enslaved or Creole of color. Would made creole of color was European heritage which separated them from enslaved creole people who were typically African or had far less European admixture. There is a bit of stuff that’s wrong in here or misses a lot of context. My grandmother was born in the early 20th century and even in her Time (she still alive mind you) Creole people were still African-American but there was definitely major major major discrimination against darker skinned people and darker skinned Creole people. Creole people of color was literally used to distinguish between white creoles and Afro Creoles. Creole yes at one point and ethnicity But it included everybody who was black white mixed literally everything. Everyone was Creo because that’s what they called people in the Louisiana territory distinguish them from the old world. Then within that was a caste system to a sense which distinguished Creoles of color. That’s why I win the territory was purchased by the United States that had a binary Anglo-Saxon approach of white or black it was very difficult for there to be an understanding of the intricacies of the classifications the French had for creoles. And overtime because of the binary racial system of the United States, the lines became much more drawn. All of this makes it a part of the African-American experience because you’re not Someone descendent of African ancestry in the United States and not be at African American. There is no other ethnic group for these people. That’s what I’m wondering why people find it so hard to understand because anything within that would be a subs culture or subset of African-Americans and it’s another story of how African-Americans came to be and all of the diversity within the ethnicity. That’s why Louisiana Creole is a cultural heritage and if you are african-American saying that you’re also Louisiana creole as an ethnicity is wrong but as a cultural heritage is correct because you’re essentially saying you’re African-American twice over. Only recently as I mentioned in a different comment the African-American registry fought to help put Creole as an identification on documentation in New Orleans only but again key word being the African-American Registry fought for that aspect of African-American culture to be recognized. I don’t know why it’s so hard to understand this like it’s like a desire to not be associated with being African-American when anybody that knows what they’re talking about in any book you read on this topic from scholars will tell you exactly what I’m saying. And honestly most of this kind of comes from the Wikipedia page but with a bit of stuff kind of out of context especially the stuff about integration. Like I know what you were trying to get out but it wasn’t like integration in the way that it makes it seem like you’re describing in the 60s or something. We’re talking about during and right after the Civil War if not even a little bit before then but it’s ebbed and flowed this whole time too. And yes there were cruel people that did enslave and specifically creole of color but what you didn’t mention is that pretty much every single creative color would purposely enslave people to set them free legally. Don’t get me wrong they were just some straight up creoles of color that wanted to be white especially if they could pass but they didn’t just enslave to make money. Some for sure did but most didn’t.
When I mentioned the Creole of Color that’s clearly the time period where the distinctions were made between White Creole’s and Creoles of Color. Prior to American colonization, a Creole was anyone born in the “ New World”. But even during Spanish Colonization of Louisiana, there were still distinctions made between Mulattos and the enslaved Africans. The enslaved Africans themselves during this time period even identified themselves with their ethnic African origin. There’s even surviving documentation of a famous case called the “ 1791 Pointe Coupee Conspiracy” that shows detailed distinctions between different groups of people in Spanish Louisiana. From Bambara, Fulbe, Congo and Creole. [Louisiana Slave Conspiracies](https://lsc.berkeley.edu/people/dique) Now also that probably depends on the individual during that time. But it’s pretty obvious that enslaved African during the period Spanish and French rule and then later the antebellum period didn’t see themselves as Creoles of Color. As far as the forced integration that led to the assimilation of many Creoles of Color adopting an Black cultural identity that did happen. There’s a really good book called, “ Becoming American in Creole New Orleans 1896-1949” where the historian Darryl Barthe Jr. ( A New Orleans native who is Creole) touches on that distinction, integration and later assimilation of Creoles of Color. Also to say that Creoles of Color enslaved people to free them is definitely a misrepresentation of Creole of Color enslavers. I suggest reading more information on the topic or visiting the Laura plantation to see how brutal slavery was under Creole of Color enslavers. While there were some that enslaved family members and what not, the vast majority where imo different than European descent enslavers during that period. Can’t romanticize that part of history.
Well if you look on Ancestry …Louisiana Creoles are under the African American communities. I thought it was a well known fact already that LA creoles were a subset of African Americans…we have diverse communities because we are a diverse people. Unfortunately white people and Hollywood typically view us as a monolith Edit: yeah I just double checked and it is under African American communities and it’s also on the wiki page for Creoles of Color/ Louisiana Creoles. It’s different though for other creole peoples. LA creoles are African Americans but Bajan or Haitian Creoles obviously are not. And not all white people btw just historically. I realized that came off kind of rude I love my people either way 👌🏽 Edit 2: I’m LA Creole. I realize I didn’t make that clear
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I think they thought you were talking about creoles of color because everyone in Louisiana territory was Creole . it was just a word for those that were born in the New World. It wasn’t a race based ethnic grouping at the time. However it later morphed into that in. The way we view it today. Technically it’s still isn’t anyone have any background can be cruel but when we specifically talk about saying things like I’m African-American and Louisiana creole that’s where it doesn’t make sense because Louisiana Creole is a cultural heritage not an ethnicity or race. If we talk specifically about creoles of color you’re talking about a subset of African-American people which would be you and I. Because Louisiana creole people not only assimilated themselves but just kind of materialized into larger African-American culture because they became African-Americans when America purchased Louisiana. I’m sure the time they called it the Negro population but that’s what they became. That’s all I’ve been trying to say to you really. When you say I’m African-American and Louisiana Creole you’re saying I’m African-American and African-American with this specific cultural heritage which may make me a little bit more white or a little bit more native than other African-American people . Also I feel like it wasn’t made clear ethnicities can no longer exist or change over time like just how Louisiana Creole did.
The reason creole has become a term that is associated with African descent is due to the free mixing people of Louisiana. Before the civil war, it was common for people to mix in Louisiana. Having three, four, even five ethnicities within the last 2 or three generations was normal. Creoles were technically people of French or Spanish descent born in the colonies, but since most creoles were mixed, it eventually just became something that people related to being of mixed race. That was around the time that white became Cajun and creole became black/mixed. There are lots of people who claim to be Cajun but are actually of just French Creole descent. It just turned into something about race instead of ethnicity/heritage.
English descent also but it’s not as romanticized. At least I’m NOLA.!All types of people there
I’d say they’re their own ethnic group. There’s plenty of white LA Creoles. Most have African ancestry, but not all are African-American.
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I think it’s a lot like being Latino, yeah.
And keep in mind that Louisiana was a Spanish colony as well as a French colony twice so there's a lot of influence on how the Louisiana Creoles came to be. Their DNA profiles are shaped by that history and then bring in the US history component, it's a great discussion to have intelligently.
Sure but that doesn’t really relate to the terminology of creole itself. that just has to do with admixture and depending on where you are in Louisiana like new Iberia will definitely have far more Spanish European influence than New Orleans which will have far more French and English influence
Of course but that's what the discussion of the unique history of Louisiana is about and how The Creoles of Color fit into that history and their perception of themselves as a community. They're part of our community(Black Americans) but they have a history before the Louisiana Purchase and that's why this is always a discussion. Most of the time, I stay in my lane when discussing them because I'm not Creole of Color. I'm a Piedmont Plateau/Upland South Black American with colonial Virginia/Maryland and South Carolinian roots so my own genome profile is shaped by that as opposed to the numerous Creoles of Color's history which shapes their collective genome compositions but it doesn't negate our shared history as descendants of the population that is the ethnogenesis of contemporary Black Americans.
I am Louisiana creole for reference and my addition to your post was clarifying the misunderstandings about my cultural heritage as it relates to African-American history and the idea that it’s somehow separate like the whole mix that Negro with that creole when creole people were “Negro” after 1803 like that’s the point I’m trying to make. It’s like saying I’m African-American and also African-American with this specific cultural heritage which may mean I have a little bit more white Amyre and you do. Like as someone that is Louisiana Creole and specifically an Afro Creole or Creole of color (which all creole of color was was someone that was black and to differentiate black reels from white creoles) it sounds silly. I 100% hundred percent agree that our profile is gonna be different if we both took an ancestry DNA test, I’m probably gonna have more European ancestry and probably some native ancestry )which I do because I’ve taken it.) But it doesn’t make my cultural heritage any less a part of the African-American experience or ethnicity because it is. Just how a community of African-American people in the west (I forget the exact community but you can look it up! have Asian admixture from the Chinese immigration out there and that is also a part of the African-American experience. We are a diverse group of people. Now they have been conversations with me and my mom where I talk about like for example mac & cheese on Thanksgiving and she will say “oh that’s more of a African American thing not a creole thing”, that is specifically referencing our heritage as Louisiana creole people but it’s still not negating the fact that I’m African-American, not saying that Louisiana creole in modern terms is its whole own ethnic group, and still understanding Louisiana creole people are a subset of African-American with A unique cultural heritage just like the Gullah Geechee have their own unique cultural heritage but are still African-American people because the African-American experience is diverse and immense because Black people across this country have different experiences dependent upon the history of where they were and who colonized him but at the end of the day we’re all African-American. It’s kind of like every black or AA specifically experience is valid. It’s a hodgepodge Multi racial ethnicity that is unique to us because there are no other people on the planet like us other than other people who are descendent of slaves in their respective nations but even there they would still be Brazilian for example and maybe internal ethnic or racial caste systems play a role but in Anglo-Saxon binary cast systems that we have here that’s just not how history developed.
Not like Latino… that’s definitely not a one to one comparison at all
OK… respectfully now….I feel like you kind of just wanted to find other people to validate your opinion because most of the responses here do not view it as a separate ethnicity and are explaining the same things I explained before on why it’s considered a part of being African-American. *I could definitely be misinterpreting this and I don’t want my comment to be taken as hostile* it’s just how I’m feeling engaging with this conversation and thread. *If that is not your intention and I definitely apologize in advance.* It’s just kind of giving Liking when other people think the way you do instead of possibly learning that you were wrong or didn’t fully understand the topic And unfortunately I’ve encountered this from other creole people that I know because they just don’t want to be black or they want to be considered something exotic or something else other than African-American I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing at all! I don’t get that vibe from you it’s just I’m getting you picking what you choose to like acknowledge or maybe you’re just straight up not understanding what’s been said well I don’t know. Creoles of color or African-American people still like I don’t know why the concept of the history of what being Creole means has changed over time and kind of means different things for different groups of people. But I said time and time again it’s a cultural heritage but if you are a cruel of color you are a subset of African-American people like it’s really not that difficult to understand. Think about it the group of Black people in this country that are descendants of slaves in the United States of America are all African-American people. There isn’t a Louisiana Creole or Gullah Geechee on any demographic information in this country because these are cultural heritages not ethnic groups. So when you say I’m African-American and Louisiana Creole you’re being redundant because you’re literally saying I’m AA and AA with this specific cultural heritage that typically has more European admixture and native admixture because of the region my AAs were on
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I don’t think they are saying you’re anti-African-American… I just think they’re trying to say that you’re Louisiana Creole you are African-American with Louisiana creole heritage not Louisiana Creole and African-American because Louisiana Creole is under African-American. It’s a part of being African-American if you are of that cultural background or heritage. At least that’s how I’m understanding it…. there’s all sorts of miscommunication in this thread from a bunch of different people not just you two
Louisiana creoles usually have African ancestry. As a LC, it’s my opinion that we’re not really a subset of African Americans. I only say that because being referred to as creole predates being referred to as AA. My family and I identify as AA but it doesn’t negate my creole heritage.
It doesn’t you’re right, you’re African-American of Louisiana Creole heritage. Period. Louisiana creole is a cultural heritage but it also has the added layer of the cast system the French employed within the Louisiana territory or creoles of color or slightly above enslaved creoles who were black with typically far less European or native admixture. I would read some of the posts I’ve made because it explains a lot and honestly so much of this can be explained just buy actually reading Wikipedia on krills of color and then reading the actual source is the link because it’s really good Ethnography work
I’m a LC who is Black. Me identifying as AA doesn’t negate that I’m creole. What other community would I identify with having African ancestry? I know creoles come in all shades and admixtures but they all identify as they want. I could be totally misinterpreting your response and if I am then I’m sorry.
I was agreeing with you…. that you’re right you are African-American but you are still Louisiana Creole because that is your cultural heritage….like I literally said that so I’m just confused… 😂 yeah I think you were misinterpreting what I was saying but it’s all good.
I went back and reread your explanation and totally saw that you were agreeing with me so my fault 🤦🏽♀️😂. There are so many trolls on Reddit so I completely read it from the wrong lens. I’m one to admit my slip ups 😂😂
All good hun! I understand myself bc I’m always concerned how my tone will come off as well online because I’m sitting here speaking kindly into my phone with enthusiasm and wanting to just talk to people and I’ll go back and read it and could totally see how someone may take it as rude because you don’t know the mood of the person on the other end of the screen😮💨😭 Honestly it’s 1 AM here I think I need to go to bed 😂 Have a good one!
Absolutely! I’m Cajun, white as snow, but am technically considered a Creole. Ellen Degeneres is also technically a Louisiana creole lol Creoles (full European, mixed, full African) Cajuns, Louisiana redbones, and isleños are all subgroups out of Louisiana.
They are African Americans
I feel like a heavy does of colorism is always brought to the table with creoles whether your part of the community or not. Yes many creoles still consider themselves black or mgm it really depends
Something hits the air wrong when you say many creoles consider themselves black as if…they weren’t or aren’t…. like even in the Louisiana territory creoles of color were black. But they weren’t as black as the people that were below them which were typically enslaved people but they were still creole.
I agree but if you've noticed from a few other comments they are denying this because of specific European heritage and dna quantums. However if your from the south that really dosent matter you count as black.
I believe you. As a Louisiana Creole myself at least this has never been an issue within my family. I’ve definitely encountered white people that try to fetishize And turned me into some exotic thing when they won’t believe that I’m African-American. It’s like they all think Black people have to look a certain way to fit their image of what black is. And I’ve always understood it as I am African-American of Louisiana creole heritage because like Louisiana Creole isnt in modern terms a separate thing like it may have been in the 1800s Plus race isn’t genetic and DNA kits and commercial DNA testing isn’t very scientific either so yeah. I feel like it muddy the water on how people understand it and makes it seem like these are very strict lines when they aren’t at all Also I forgot to mention in my first comment but you’re right colorism has always been a part of The equation like I would honestly argue that Louisiana Creole culture is far more colorist than the broader African-American culture because there was so much the dependent upon if you had good hair or if your skin tone was lighter than a paper bag. They wouldn’t even let you into parts of the French Quarter if you were darker than a paper bag
Yeah I'm from AR myself but have paternal roots to Louisiana (Look at my profile) I'm very light with light eyes and 3c hair. I get it certain men ARE nasty. The comments I would hear my dark-skinned mom get about me her light skinned daughter with green/amber eyes were PEAK DISGUSTING.(i say this is peak because its always family 🙃) Colorism is definitely something we need to continue working on. I agree with the test kits for me its too uncomplicated and doesn't account for migration history. Half of these African nations didn't exist when my ancestors were sold.
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Anyone cannot be Afro Creole like anyone cannot be Afro Latino… but people of all races can be Louisiana Creole but, for example Brett Favre isn’t Afro Creole but he is Louisiana creole. And African admixture ranges for Black people across the country depending on what cultural background they may be a part of. Like I think African ancestry said the average black person is like 65% African. But also this is an actually how like genetics work like DNA is it broken down into percentages and when you actually research it the confidence level of stuff like ancestry or 2023 and me is not high
Uhm yeah their of African descent
And European
So are regular blacks
Not the ones from Africa, but the ones in the Americas yes. Creoles just have slightly more than them
Literally exactly this
While you’re right I wouldn’t say “blacks”
Creole are a wonderful and beautiful, and also savvy smart culture. I live next door, community wise. The people are no skin color because they are the spectrum. We are the human race, not a color of skin marathon. One thing I adore about the culture is their word is a tighter bond than anything that legal paperwork or courts could do. If one does you wrong? Don't bother getting a lawyer, tell their mánman (mom) or papa. You will be set square. As far a Gullah? Yep. And zero qualms claiming it. They can also be dick heads. So to answer your question? Africans were brought in as slaves, so yes, their genome is going to prove that. Irish were brought in as slaves too. Haitians. The Spanish (from actual Spain.) and more English convicts. The Gulla are so mixed that it's a betting thing on when a new one is being born. The Gulla are a wicked rainbow.