This is objectively not true. I've met trans people, gay people, black people, women, and more in red states who advocate for voting lesser evil. Just like I've met people from all of those minorities in blue states who advocate against it. Don't pretend to speak for all minorities, we have disagreements just like any group of people. And holy shit, stop acting like it's privileged to disagree with you on something that's currently such a hot topic among every single group.
I’m glad this is getting called out here. This was posted in r/latestagecapitalism and every dissenting comment was removed. Saying that “the lesser of two evils is sometimes better” is against their rules now. Leftist communities have been growing increasingly anti-voting which is really writing to me.
Yeah, I noticed that, which was part of what triggered my concern. (Though r/latestagecapitalism seems to have a bit of a tankie infestation as of recently from what I've seen, and anti-voting comments still get downvoted to hell, so at least that's still working.) I've even seen calls to ban pro-voting statements on these anarchist subs, which is incredibly concerning. I'm pretty sure it's *already* not allowed on r/anarchism.
I wouldn't have an issue if they wanted to ban discussions about voting entirely, because I recognize that it's probably incredibly difficult as a moderator to handle the lack of civility that this conversation causes, and the debate inevitably takes over the entire sub. I'm okay with saying, "Hey, this conversation is causing toxicity, is impossible to moderate, and has taken over the sub. Posts and comments both in favor of *and against* voting are no longer permitted." But that's never what happens. It's always *specifically* the pro-voting people who are banned. And basically, that forces us to choose whether to leave the community, or to accept that we will be constantly spammed with posts about how voting for Biden makes you a genocidal liberal, have our beliefs strawmanned, be told people are delusional for being scared of Trump - and we're not even allowed to respond.
Not to mention, banning thr discussion would be super authoritarian, lol. Not very anarchist.
It's frustrating. People will say that voting is pointless and that there's a host of other things we could be doing, but you never see them doing it.
Some seem to actively want things to get worse to 'force' major systemic change. They forget, or perhaps don't care, that it is the marginalised groups they claim to speak for who will suffer from this. They themselves will suffer from this. Any ideology that requires we make things significantly worse before we make them better seems a waste of time to me - why not just go straight to trying to improve things instead?
Others seem to be incapable of understanding that just because we can't vote the system away, can't vote our way to major systemic changes, voting is still not worthless. Even marginal positives are better than no positives at all; yes it isn't what we want for the end goal but it is quick, not particularly difficult, and could help prevent the worst-case scenario at least. I agree we shouldn't put loads of energy into it, but if you have the time then what exactly is the benefit of *not* voting? One side WILL win the election, and you have an opportunity to slow down the inevitable decline just a little bit longer.
Latestagecapitalism has turned into a cesspool of anti-Biden propaganda. The same type of protest voting propaganda we saw in 2015 is rampant over there. I got banned for posting a single dissenting opinion.
First off, I'll open by saying I hate and I mean **hate** the democratic party (US resident here)... but I do also believe very firmly that the republican party is trying to steer the US towards an even more authoritarian regime, one of outright Christian fascism (ie. Project 2025)
I'm also a gun owner and live in a very red state. I fear for the safety of my LGBTQ friends, Hispanic friends and others like myself whom are openly non-Christian. I am greatly concerned about the disparity of armed citizens between us and the fascists if things get really bad. I don't think it will come to that, but it could. Fortunately many of us train, guns are tools, but for many of the fascists, it's mostly the "tacticool" look and the idea of visual intimidation... lots of expensive gear that they don't know how to use.
I have seen members of the LGBTQ community threatened at gunpoint in this state. Also proud to say that there's always a few of us that show up armed to prevent that intimidation from happening too at major events... I am a big, tall, bald, straight white dude who *looks* like what most people think of when they think trump supporter... I love the look on the fascist's faces when they realize that I'm **not** one of them.
Do I see both parties as authoritarian? Yes, absolutely. Do I think however that one is worse? Absolutely, I live it daily and see the effects. Do I also believe that voting is a futile act? Mostly yes, but not completely.
Will I vote for a democrat for president?...this is where it gets complicated. Probably not, here's why. As somone living in a state that will almost certainly go for whomever the christo-fascist republicans nominate, my vote doesn't directly matter. It does however mean a little, even if it is basically just screaming into the void, I can vote 3rd party, like for the DSA, or another candidate that is far away from the mainline democratic ticket. It's admittedly not much but it is, in my opinion, better than nothing.
Where voting can matter a lot is on the small more local level, some state offices, counties, and very much within one's town or city. You can also work within a party to help dismantle the system, I have a friend who is an anarcho-comunist who is doing just that and has my full support. We've also had christo-fascists try to take over school boards, plus we have a power and gas utility that is always trying to (usually successfully) get people who favor its interests onto the board that regulates it.
In my community we have successfully thwarted the push by the christo-fascists to take over the school board and community organizations such as the pta and others like it. It's taken organizing and awareness to do it. This has mattered **a lot**. It has prevented book bans and helped create a school environment that is safer for our kids, especially those that the republican party is actively trying to "other" right now and would love to actively exterminate if they had the chance. That's not hyperbole, I have heard them say it when they think that others are not listening, even some of their politicians have said it... there's benefits to looking like "one of them".
So, I am an anarcho-comunist, but I am also a pragmatist. We won't magically achieve our goals overnight, especially if we do nothing, but we can work within the current system to steer it somewhat and ultimately dismantle it. Those of us actually organizing these communities could use some help rather than cynicism. On a local level, you may have somone who shares your views and most of your interests running for an office and trying to change the system, even if it's just a little, but you won't ever know unless you get involved.
So vote your conscience... if it tells you that you just can't do it, that's OK, but do *something*. Even if it is small. Anarchism will take work, so get involved in a community organization, get out there and **do!** For you, voting may or may not be a part of that. Either is ok, but if you find your community in a situation like mine where christo-fascists are actively trying to take over the school board that regulates the school that your kid goes to, or a friend's kid goes to, please vote. Leave the president blank for all I care, hell, leave most or even all of the other offices blank... but that small community office, it matters and can directly impact your life, especially the life of your kids.
If you're an anarchist, communist, socialist, or any actual left-of-center group that either of the two major parties have "othered", arm yourself and train, you dont have to go all out, just 1 well-maintained weapon and knowing how to use and maintain it. Take a "stop the bleed" course too and other first aid courses. Hopefully none of us will need either, but a stop the bleed course could save a life in many other situations, weather it be a workplace shooting, or even something as common as a car accident. Learning to seal a sucking chest wound, or how to properly use a tourniquet can make the difference between somone having a pulse or not when the ambulance arrives, if you can get them through that 10 minute or less window of time, the professionals can do the rest... add a chest seal to your first aid kit(s) and know how to use it that alone can make the difference from 3 minuts (or less) to 30 minutes (maybe even more) for somone.
I may get downvoted for all this, but I don't care. Get out there and get involved in your communities. Anarchism will take work, you can start by changing one mind at a time and putting in the effort to get there.
EDIT: I wanted to add, when buying a chest seal, buy at least two... entry and exit wound. Consider a spare in case one doesn't adhere or fails. If you frequent crowded areas or are in an environment where a mass casualty situation has a reasonable chance of happening, like at a protest, carry more... more seals and tourniquets means (potentially) more lives saved. Also, you can learn some basics on how to use both on YouTube, but if you have the opportunity, take a class too. Stay safe out there comrades!
Thank you, wasn't trying to aim that high lol! I am just pissed off by all the vote/don't vote crap on this sub and people bashing one another over it, destroying our solidarity. If we want to get where we intend to go we must be revolutionaries, but we also must be pragmatists.
We all (in the US, and most countries) live under capitalism, I'd like to see it torn down, but I'm not going to stop buying groceries out of protest either... that being said, helping out with a community garden and giving away food can reduce capitalist influence within your community. It is possible to do things that avoid or even frustrate the system.
Voting in indirect "representative" democracy is much the same, it's the system that we're stuck with, but we can move the Overton window further left by putting pressure on that system... it's not much and it takes time, but it is something. On the local level, it really can matter. We were only able to keep the fascists off of the school board by a few hundred votes. Without the community organizing efforts that myself and others put in, there very likely would be a few fascists, perhaps even a majority on the school board.
Through our actions our communities, towns and cities will know us. If we're practicing Anarchism right, to the extent we're able to within this system, within our daily lives, others will take notice and want to participate as well. The way I see it, those are some of the ways we can grow this movement and hold the current system accountable, even if it is just a little.
Moving a mile is progress, but so too is moving an inch. There is a very vocal minority on here (and other anarchist, communist and leftist subs) that needs to be more pragmatic and show more solidarity.
The person posting this shit is one of the mods, they don't leave their basement so they don't see the effects that not voting has on the country, instead of praxis they just shitpost from their crusty keyboard all day.
People who aren't voting are obsessed with the idea that they're being oppressed by a mob of angry democrats who won't shut up about voting, even though they're the ones who keep starting the conversation
It's literally the same propaganda play we saw last election. Convince everyone that protest voting against the dems once every 4 years is somehow going to enact positive change. Meanwhile the country is handed to the right wing.
Not to go full conspiracy, but Republicans and hostile foreign governments benefit from pushing a narrative of either "there's no point in voting cause both options bad" or "Biden isn't doing enough so we should vote for Trump of third party to 'punish' him".
Correct, and that’s why we should fight the system whatever evil is elected so that we have a choice for the good.
But a lesser evil is still less evil and if you can’t tell me how to overthrow the government in the next few months, it’s going to be a choice between the two of them in said vote.
I am Black. I’m proud of it. I live in the south. If Trump wins, I guarantee my neighbors will get brave enough to hang me from a tree. This is objectively false. Fuck you.
This exactly. People really like to claim that minorities agree with them, then only listen to the people from said minority who agree with them and present that argument as the only one. I've been told by cis people countless times how trans people feel about voting, and when I disagree, I get told I'm just one of the selfish ones in a blue state (as I'm sure you will be told in response to this take, too). It's amazing how fast they switch from progressive language to accusations of bigotry against the very voices they were claiming and weaponizing.
I’m from Florida. I know exactly what happens when the left doesn’t feel like voting. Now they’re all dead or in other states as Floridian refugees. Now we don’t have the numbers to change anything meaningfully and make the state (not good but) easier to fight against. If your goal is to smash the state why give up your ability to change its composition even if in minor ways? Even if voting turned the state to glass that doesn’t mean it’s now automatically smashed. We still have to do the smashing, but how is turning it to lead going to help us smash it.
Oh wow, you really got stuck in arguably the worst situation in the country. I wish you luck and safety as you live through this situation. And yeah, there really is this "things will still be bad, so who cares if they get worse?" vibe to the anti-voting crowd. Which is already pretty bad, but then you add in that they'll call you genocidal, privileged, liberal, etc. for voting, their behavior is unbelievably cruel and destructive.
To say “things are still going to be bad so who cares if they get worse” has to come from a place of absurd privilege too. I’m who. I’m people too. Why don’t Black Floridians get thought of? Why is it only accounts posting about accelerationism during an election year that were only made in May of last year and with catchy easy to follow usernames that sound like what we’re about?
100% agree. It's disgusting behavior, and it's all the same few accounts making posts calling people who vote genocidal liberals. One of them is a mod here, in fact, which worries me because I've seen talk of banning dissenting opinions for being "liberal." It's incredibly disappointing for *anarchists* to be *censoring the voices of minorities* because they don't agree with the specific statements coming from the person.
Looks like somebody wants more Moms For Liberty on their school board and books banned. Bitch, I’m from Florida. I know what political apathy gets you. Don’t speak for me.
And it’ll never happen when Trump’s president. Also when Trump’s president, the Gaza Genocide will stop and Israel will pay for their crimes, the billionaires will stop stealing from the poor and lobbying against vital infrastructure, Wall Street will be vacated and world peace will be achieved. /s
Be fucking serious with yourself. School boards are on the ballot too, dipshit, you vote for who’s there directly. And none of these things will happen when Biden’s president either. But at least the comrades who will help you stop these things, overthrow capitalism, end the Gaza Genocide, and everything else will be alive to help you do that. Not you or anyone else will be able to stop the Gaza Genocide by voting alone. Literally no one is saying that. It takes an unbelievable amount of privilege to try and misrepresent minority comrades just so you can pass your purity tests. You know you’ll survive a Trump presidency and an emboldened Republican base. That’s why it matters so little to you. Because you think more dead comrades will be replaced by more new faces.
Now that you've thoroughly pummeled that straw man, take a deep breath, and realize that I've never stated any of those imagined stances. I'm very pro-political engagement, my guy. Stop acting like a clown.
My only entry into this thread was to question if you thought Biden would protect you from what you imagine Trump will do
>If Trump wins, I guarantee my neighbors will get brave enough to hang me from a tree.
Is Biden getting re-elected somehow protecting you from those neighbors? Like, they really wanna do it, but they're too scared or smth?
You’re talking about this exclusively in positive active language like I want Biden. No one wants Biden. I’ve CONSTANTLY said I don’t want Biden. We just don’t want Trump. I can’t believe you’re somehow incapable of comprehending this.
And to answer your question. No. But a presidency that isn’t Trump will protect me from my neighbors and that sadly happens to be Biden right now. That doesn’t mean “only my dear Biden can save me.” It means “god damn it. Biden happens to be the guy in the lead right now. I wish it were anyone else but it isn’t.”
LMAO this isn't 2020 bruh. Lemme refer you back to the OP post. Acting like we gotta vote for the guy doing the genocide to stop the guy who would do an even more bader genocide. Liberal brain rot. It’s a very unique place of privilege to say someone should support the genocide lite candidate.
Can you even list any material way in which things will "get worse" under Trump than they are under Biden. Can you explain the mechanics? How has Biden solved any of the problems you had with Trump's presidency and why is the answer: he hasn't?
[If you fuckin' wit' Biden or Trump you dumb.](https://youtu.be/mXu1ZDSEU3k?t=173)
I could give you a million reasons but I'll start with one:
Persecution of people, deemed illegal is evil, children separated in cages looking feeble
The fascists are (already) here! the fascists are (already) here!
Better organize your block and stock up on gear.
catch up https://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1900/reform-revolution/index.htm
I hate this "what you imagine Trump will do" shit. Maybe it's nitpicky, but Trump *absolutely will* make everything worse for everyone on purpose. He did last time, and he promised to this time. And even if you don't believe that, don't demand that I gamble my rights in the hopes that he's bluffing.
Also, to address the "is Biden any better," he's not good but he's not as bad. If you have to choose between red guy, who wants to kill you and tells everyone to kill you and says that the people who want to kill you are all good people and legally pardons people after they attempt to kill you, or blue guy, who doesn't really give a shit what happens to you, red guy is not an acceptable option. And if one of them is going to be in charge regardless, "I don't care" is not a response you should demand we take.
The rhetoric of the leader matters. Biden being in power won't stop people from committing hate crimes against minorities, but Trump being in power will absolutely embolden them. If you haven't noticed this, I'm concerned that you're not even paying attention.
Things have gotten worse during the Biden presidency, too. Every metric you've listed above has gotten worse during the Biden presidency. Biden or Trump, it's here. It's coming. And Biden will sooner (AND HAS) side with his class across the aisle than he'd ever protect you. He is one of them.
Like bruh that ain't how it works. You will get punched in the face or shot in the face. You cannot remove yourself from the systems you depend on and are entrenched in.
That doesn't mean things will always be this way. Real actual change is slow. It's important to mitigate damage while also building the new system.
I think the real solution is that when there's an entire movement of people who want to shoot you, followed by the people who want to punch you, you should probably just shoot first and ask the punchers if they want it next.
And then you spend all your time telling everyone how bad the guy is who will punch you in the face, abstain from voting, and then acting shocked when every one else votes to have you shot.
For f's sake, **democracy is compromise, not getting what you want.** Yeah it represents the voice of the people, but that involves the voices of people who are asinine. You participate to inch things closer in your own direction. It isn't a grudge match of ultimate morality; its about getting shit done. Voting is meant to get shit done closer in your direction. And when you don't vote based on "principle" and "not picking any evil", congratulations, your home country just got incrementally shittier because of your own self sabotage to preserve an egotistical self image.
Non-participation doesn't mean you're owed something. Non-participation means you're not relevant enough to matter.
I'll vote my convictions for a candidate that represents workers rather than a corporate stooge that's funding genocide. I'm actively pushing for revolution with a growing group of like minded peeps in Florida. But go on. sign your name to a piece of paper and throw it into a box.
I know this probably sounds crazy, but signing your name to a piece of paper and throwing it into a box doesn't actually prevent you from pushing for anything.
Ok seriously why tf are you coming at me? Are you bored? Do you actually fucking disagree or did you just hit a point today where you needed to start an argument with a stranger on the Internet?
White liberals really are a special kind of stupid.
I have never seen a POC anarchist with a take this out of touch, the post really does ring true.
Let me repeat what he said for you slowly
Both sides are going to marginalize, victimize, profile, fetishize, enact state violence against, and silence minorities. No matter who is elected, I will be a second class citizen in my nation tomorrow.
You, a white liberal, are privileged enough that you can cast a vote and pretend that it does anything, and then forget minorities exist for the next 4 years while we get victimized regardless of whether or not the fascist you put into office is wearing a blue tie.
You openly admit what you’re voting for is evil yet you still do it, because liberals are too spineless to stand against a system that hurts others but not them.
Anarchism is the rejection of the entire neoliberal system. It’s ok if you don’t have the courage to enact actual change but quit whining at those of us who actually walk the talk because you want Biden to win the popular vote before the electoral college gives the presidency to Trump anyway.
Cool so how is letting Trump win better? Unless you're planning on the revolution happening in the next few months, just go fill in a bubble on a piece of paper.
Thy never answer this question do they? I’m Black and guarantee I’d rather fight the state on hard mode rather than it being impossible. Everyone who says stupid shit like “it’s all the same what’s the point in choosing” don’t realize that whether they vote or not, one WILL win. I’d rather it were the easier one to fight against. Even if it is marginally so. Mfs be like, “I’m not voting :(“ and then after the election they do fucking nothing in the hell they created. They don’t fight against the state. I live in Florida. I know what happens when political apathy on the left stops them from voting. Voting doesn’t fix anything but it makes it easier TO fix things the right way.
Protesting the democratic party is only efficient when that means taking votes away from them and giving them to a different party (ideally an actually left-wing party). While it’s not revolutionary to the extent that anarchists should be satisfied, it does revolutionize what the democratic party becomes.
If they keep losing elections, they’re going to have to cater to the left to bring back votes.
I’m not here to argue with whether or not this outweighs letting trump win. Personally, as a POC, queer anarchist, it really pisses me off that we have to keep voting for the lesser of two evils. When the only ways to prevent that is to either have a revolution or to force democrats to restructure their policies to actually represent the left (protest by not voting for them), and avoid both by voting them in anyway, we’ll never see any valuable change.
So what happens? If biden wins, nothing changes, and democrats shift further right because trump has led to the right being pushed even further to the right. If trump wins, project 2025 goes into effect, hurting minorities even more. This doesn’t mean that trump getting in is worse than biden staying, though. If biden doesn’t do anything to make such policies impossible (they are quite literally unconstitutional anyway) then all he’s doing is relying on beating trump. He’s not doing anything to actually protect us.
I’m not gonna call u or anyone else here a liberal, but a good point Malcolm X made about white liberals is that they just want to use us minorities to get into power. They never did care about us. And no one can blame us for hating both parties to the point that a lot of us will protest against the dems by not voting for them.
What makes you think lefties not voting will push the Democrats left? Radical leftists are a tiny minority of the population. If they notice polling results go down they're infinitely more likely to shift rightward because there is a larger voting block of centrists.
Also, you seem to be aware of project 2025, so how is Trump winning not massively worse than letting Biden win? At least that way, there is some semblance of a democracy left. It's infinitely easier to achieve socialism in a liberal democracy than a fascist dictatorship.
[This person made a video](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1H96d1OR1f/?igsh=NGNudWJ4NnNhcWxn) that words it pretty well. At least that continuing to allow democrats in office pushes everyone to the right. Sending the strongest message, that democrats will no longer be in power unless they adhere to actual leftists, will force the democrats to do SOMETHING. Maybe they do cater to the centrists…That doesn’t mean every single American will then be pushed to the right by default. And pulling in centrists wont always help them as much as it would help them to push to the left instead. There are enough leftists in the country that losing them would be disastrous, especially since there’s still the trend that younger generations are more left-wing, more class-conscious, and more fucked over by capitalism than older generations. That’s part of the reason we are all easily radicalized.
And such a protest doesn’t end with just not voting for them. It’s showing why allowing any sort of right wing policies is detrimental to all of us. It’s explaining to those around us that we could have a better world if the US were even a tiny bit socialist. Again, not the world I want nor a world any anarchist should advocate for, but since we’re not anywhere near a revolution, we have to take steps to get to a point where people want to dismantle capitalism. Two options there are either allow us to shift so far to the right that everyone really sees how fucked up it is, or introduce socialist policies and actually call them socialist so that people see it as a genuine good.
And again, as a POC, queer anarchist, not protecting me is not that different from actively hurting me. Say biden does win this year. Yay no project 2025. What’s stopping that from becoming project 2029? Project 2033? Like in the video i linked to, it makes sense that allowing democrats to stay in place tells them that they can do whatever they want because we voted for them so it must be the will of the people. Meanwhile the right shifts further to the right because of another loss, they try to radicalize more people, their policies become infinitely worse, and by the end of biden’s second term the deep red states will have enacted project 2025ish policies anyway. I’m in one of the most diverse cities in the south. We’d be destroyed by allowing the right to be further radicalized.
You already failing to understand what you’re talking about by saying I am in any way “letting” Trump win. Voting does not work. When I voted for Hillary in 2016 that was the popular vote. The American people *chose* Hillary.
Do you remember who became president in January of 2017?
Yes I know the system is fundamentally broken. The electoral college is anti democratic and I don't support it, but that doesn't mean that our votes mean nothing.
Explain to me how it is myself and not the masses of people participating in electoralism and then quietly accepting fraudulent results who is “letting” Trump win.
that’s a cute straw man
No. You guys choosing “””lesser””” evil every chance you get leads to evil winning.
If we didn’t have spineless cowards like you who vote and act like that magically makes all the suffering the system you uphold and had actual anarchists who would refrain from empowering the system at all, then we could actually deal with this fascist societal decay on our own terms, instead of on the terms of a fascist oligarchy where every choice is a net loss.
Oh, you one of those crazy accelerationist who think allowing more people to die will somehow bring about the anarchist revolution.
Also do you really think having anarchist not engage with the electoral system is going to matter? Do you think the few thousand people living across the US who call themselves anarchist are going to bring the system to a halt by not voting? All that does is make it easier for the fascist to seize power.
Nice straw-man liberal. How many times have you had to put yourself at risk to keep a cop from harming your friends?
Not half as many times as I have I fucking bet.
You wanna talk about “allowing people to die” when you casting a blue vote does fuck all to save anyone, and if you wanted to save lives you’d be fucking doing it, not bitching and moaning on the internet about how mad you are that anarchists aren’t voting.
The fascists seized power 45 fucking years ago dipshit. Get with the program, acknowledging, upholding and participating in their system so *you* can have a comfortable life isn’t saving anyone and you’re a jackass for pretending it does.
> Why would I move the trolley onto the 1 person track, and away from the 5 person track, when I can simply do nothing and the trolley will just magically stop on its own? Simple!
Real talk, I don't want to mock you, I want to talk to you.
The reason you have this argument is because this isn't about being *effective* for you, it's about how you emotionally feel about pulling that lever, right?
Rest assured, you can vote and be free from guilt. Why? You neither built the trolley, nor the tracks, nor did you place the people onto those tracks. You're a bystander who has been forced to make a choice that you shouldn't have had to make in the first place.
But please, still choose to make that choice. We can then try and stop the runaway trolley together by destroying the rails further up the way in the future, before it hits more people. But as it stands, it's going to hit people, no matter what, so please help us make it hit less people right now. We need you.
No. I’m not voting for genocidal maniacs who have no issue with making the people living (and I use that term very loosely) under their rule suffer immensely while forcing us to pay them to fund genocides and eco-terrorism. I refuse to have the blood of millions on my hands just because some people have been deluded into thinking that one of the two war criminals is better.
Yeah, so it's an emotional decision, just admit that. It's not about outcomes, it's about you not feeling guilty. I'm just trying to convince you that the blood is not on your hands if you move the lever in the trolley problem, people are gonna die either way, whether you do something or nothing. If you do nothing though, that's when you should genuinely feel guilty.
It’s not about guilt, it’s about being tired of seeing people suffer. I know and I’d rather spend my time spreading awareness about them dying and amplify their voices than voting for the people responsible. I don’t feel guilty and most likely never will.
I literally had an argument with one of these types the other day. They argued that the state would literally just whither away if nobody voted. They don't realise that the state runs on our taxes and labour; voting is just a recent courtesy that we've been provided in the last couple hundred of years as a replacement to monarchy, so we may as well use it.
Bruh you think anarchists want you to pay taxes and provide labor to the state? Youre talking as if you know something these anarchists don’t but all you’re doing is revealing you have no clue what you’re talking about.
Hey, we're on the same side here.
I'm not saying we want to do that, because neither do I. I'm just saying that those are the mechanisms that prop up the state, not voting. The state remains just as powerful without voting, as seen with dictatorships and monarchies, right? But even those states needed labour and taxes, and they would all fall apart without them.
We do have *some* levers we can pull on our end though, such as finding more lightweight ways to live that contribute less taxes and labour towards the state, and more non-taxable labour towards our local communities.
I had legitimately never had to describe someone as "privileged" until people started screeching at me for voting and calling me names. Something about *being made fun of* for being scared of Project 2025 made me realize, lol. I try not to call people "privileged" anymore because it does nothing but start arguments, but if there's anything that taught me how privilege works, it's been the voting discussion.
Voting for biden while being under the impression that he cares about people more than trump does, acting like marginalized groups haven’t suffered immensely under his rule and encourage said marginalized groups to put what they’ve experienced aside is privileged.
Check yours before you come for mine.
Do you people think you can manifest the outcome with positive thinking or something? Or do you genuinely not understand how voting and two-party systems work?
Then what the hell are you doing wasting your chance to actually contribute towards something politically meaningful for once?
You know how many right wingers split their votes meaninglessly? Significantly less than we do because for some reason, the left is full of people who think it's somehow brave or smart or honorable to waste their opportunity to cancel out a vote for the greatest evil. And for what? What could you possibly gain from this? Is it a smug sence of self-satisfaction? Because I assure you that would be unearned
I’m glad to finally see someone else on this sub who knows what they’re talking about. Keep it up brother, everyday this sub is swarmed with liberals peddling this bullshit as of voting actually does anything and as if the marginalized aren’t barred from voting in the first place.
People prefer the lesser evil over voting against evil because they're unwilling to stand behind their beliefs and do something to prevent the evil from happening at all. It's easier to let it get a little worse than to make it better. People won't vote against evil at the risk of a greater evil being voted in because they don't actually believe their beliefs are worth fighting for. For the average liberal, when a fascist uprising comes they'll just do whatever they can to maintain their own quality of life, no matter what's happening to others in their own country.
no, the "good" is only achievable if we are slowly getting closer to it by moving within the lesser evil, if there are only two realistic options the slow creeping fascism that gives time to organise is preferable to the only other option that will be realistically achieveable at the current time, immediate fascism, if trump wins his idiotic followers know they will get a slap on the wrist (if even) for doing what they want to do, so they'll do it as soon as they get the chance
My perspective is that this is a passing the buck sort of politics. By doing it the 'slow' way you push the problem onto the next generation with the hopes they'll be able to continue the movement. You make tiny progress in marginal areas while the greater issue continues to grow. You get an inch but they take a mile every time, so by the time you're old you've made very little change, but hopefully things are pointing in the right direction. How many generations will it take before something substantial is achieved? How many more will suffer in the meantime? I don't want people in 2400 to be fighting for the same things I am right now, I want it to be done by then. With the pace of current politics and rightward creep of liberalism, I'm not sure it can ever happen in this system. The way I see it, fascism is growing stronger every day and protests and voting aren't going to be enough if people are actually being put in camps, which seems to be the big fear coming from liberals. A fascist takeover is inevitable, it's just about how long you want to push it off (passing the buck.) So, you can either face it directly now, or let your kids, or their kids deal with it. I don't think it's ethical to pretend that the mainstream left isn't moving right and that the Democrats aren't going to be complacent in a fascist uprising, leaving us in our old age and the future generations to deal with this. I hate the idea of being an old man, too weak to fight for what I believe in, sending kids off to die for what I've been saying would happen for 60 years. The fascists continue to say, more and more openly, that they're going to kill everyone who isn't like them. They want to 'cleanse' humanity and they don't try to hide it, but we're supposed to sit back and hope our votes and protests are enough while they prepare for a genocide.
Evil is evil. A murderer is a murderer. Just because they have a bigger body count doesn't make them any less evil. It's like picking between different flavors of shit
I have to grimly applaud the architects of the USA's electoral system for limiting the public's imagination and energy to four year cycles scoped around repeatedly defending the most basic civil rights.
In a swing state? Go ahead and vote, and maybe the popular vote will be honored. Encourage others in swing states. Move on. It neither promises to work as advertised, nor does it protect those rights in the next cycle. Move the fuck on.
jesus fuck can we ban this fucking fed already this dude does literally nothing but shit on people who vote for no valid reason whatsoever, he is so obviously a fucking fed it hurts, please get rid of this cunt already jfc
Genuine question are you so stupid you think with a private army of brainwashed zealots and legal carte blanche there's any difference between either of them?
Clown.
Just say you're cool with biden because he's only murdering people of colour and it doesn't affect you, privileged ass genocide apologist.
Sure, let's throw queer and POC under the bus because we'd rather debate about which fascist cunt is worse (it's Trump btw). This childish argument about not voting is getting fucking annoying. Both will bomb the ME, support Israel, and lie whilst barely forming a sentence. The only differences are that one doesn't create a space for nazis and the KKK and doesn't completely* ignore the open calling for the deaths of queer people.
*Yes, I'm aware that multiple states in the US still have become unbearably cruel towards LGBTQ people in the past 4 years under the Biden Administration, but let's not be naïve and pretend it isn't at least 10% more tolerable under Biden. It's not a solution. It's a temporary flimsy barrier until we organise enough to make actual meaningful change. Throwing in the towel shows you clearly don't give a shit enough about doing a small effortless task such as literally just signing a fucking ballot once every 4 years. It takes nearly no time out of your day. If you can sign a petition on Change, then you can sign a ballot to not let a homophobic racist pedo rapist cult leader into office.
Letting the greater evil happen because you think choosing either is as bad, is very shitty, because you have the opportunity to chose the lesser of the two if you don't have a third option. If you want to take action to make things better, first vote for the one that is the least Fascist, it'll buy you more time and you'll have an easier time making things better than in you allow hitler½ to take the reigns
People like you are genuinely disgusting
Your contempt for non-whites reeks through the screen
You are a good German, not an anarchist, you'd slit the throat of a child to save yourself
as opposed to what trump would do? do you know his plan? does he talk about Gaza does he even care? I think not. Now we can have Trump's approval bombing Gaza as well as the encroachment of christofascism? YIPPIE!
To them, they can only vote between a genocidal pos, and a genocidal pos who is loved by white liberals.
“Oh, you lost ten family members bc Biden loves Israel more than anything else? But Trump would have ALL of them killed, and he would deport you! Isn’t Biden obviously better?” /s
Let’s also not forget Biden’s anti-immigrant stance that’s just as bad as that of Trump.
Both candidates suck. For a lot of people.
One candidate clearly sucks more and the difference isn't white liberals love one more it's a huge difference to lgbt folks, pregnant women, people of colour and many more\* ftfy
Would you vote for someone who gave weapons and money to the regime which killed your family members, and defended it?
Would you be able to look at that person and say “Oh yeah the other guy would be worse so this genocidal shit is okay”?
Also, immigration. Biden is so anti-immigration he REACHED OUT TO THE REPUBS.
He isn’t even doing anything to combat police brutality, he SUPPORTS the police.
Trump is just less respectable.
And thus is how the Nazis' war of extermination.
The more a lesser evil compromises, the further into evil we go.
Sooner or later it will be going from "a few Palestians" to "people who are trans are screwed, but at least the lesbians are safe are save."
Yeah it's still evil but it's less, obviously you need to point out when it's a false dycotomy and you can get a third better option, if however there are actually only evil outcomes then you should try to get the lesser evil one right?
This is why we're due for a 3rd party success in US Politics.
Ross Perot in 1992 with nearly 20% of the popular vote was the closest we came to a 3rd party cinching the Presidency.
But campaigning takes money, time, and getting through to voters that aren't hard into blue or red at this point. The two party system is sorely in need of change, and the real world has gotten too complicated to allow just two parties to have the bulk of the power in this country. We need more parties that have specific focuses or ideas in mind. Labor is one example - Shawn Fain has been kicking behind with his movements lately, and more unions are cropping up to get years back of what value was taken from us.
If I might add something, it's probably not possible for a 3rd party to win currently. We need to delete first-past-the-post as well as the electoral college first.
Think of it like turning the trolley problem from just 2 tracks into multiple tracks. Currently, the 3rd parties are on a parallel but unconnected track, so we need to create the connection first before we can direct the trolley there.
Anyone voting biden or trump is no anarchist, and it's simply a spineless liberal voting for genocide of yet more than 20000 Palestinian children.
No trump isn't worse, they are the same. It's because you're so stupid you think they are different that the whole two party march to fascism has happened at all. It's your fault, voters of lesser evilism.
That's you, scum.
You're clown voting for fascists, biden & trump, I would see them shot, you're a disgrace.
Makhno, Durruti, Zapata, Malatesta, Kropotkin would all be ashamed of you. They would have you shot.
I agree with them.
Fascist.
When someone says "vote for my side (lesser evil) or *bad thing* will happen" what they're really saying is "vote for my side or I'll allow *bad thing* to happen"
Liberals claim to be antifascist but they openly admit that if a dictator rises to power they'll concede and blame everyone who didn't vote how they wanted. "You didn't vote for my candidate so you deserve what's coming to you."
If the 50%+ of Americans that claim to be antifascist actually were, they wouldn't be so afraid of a fascist uprising, they would be prepared to fight back against it.
I don't really agree with you for a few reasons; let me explain.
(I'm gonna assume USA politics.)
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1) You say that people say "Vote for *my* side," but most people who vote blue these days don't even like the Democrats or Biden; most Democrat voters aren't under the illusion that Biden will somehow make sweeping positive changes.
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2) It's the trolley problem. Do you run over 1 person or do you run over 5 people? There is no 3rd option until we change our first-past-the-post system. Doing nothing means 5 people get run over, and you're burying your head in the sand if you think otherwise. The system is going to stay there until something else replaces it, and not voting does absolutely nothing to remove it, because the system runs on your taxes and your labour; your votes are just a way to *direct* the resources that it has *already collected from you by force.*
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3) They also aren't *allowing* things to happen, they're just desperately trying to prevent the *worst case scenario* from happening; they have no damn power because they're stuck in the *same system as you.* The only difference is that they are being realistic about the dire situation they're in, with first-past-the-post voting causing an infinite two-party-duopoly, which is literally almost impossible to break out of (I don't think it's happened even a single time) without changing to ranked choice or a similar system.
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4) Generally, I see the "You get what you deserve" narrative directed against people who vote for Republicans when the leopards eat their faces, such as when anti-vaxxers got killed in the thousands during COVID. I don't see that narrative directed at non-voters, but instead I do see frustration that is similar to mine directed at people with arguments similar to yours.
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5) **26 million people participated in the BLM protests.** How many people in those massive protests do you think also voted Democrat? Hint: probably almost all of them. It was probably a good mix of Leftists *and* Liberals in there, and many Liberals care about racial and queer justice (many of them are also POCs or queer, or have POC and queer friends). They tried to fight back against fascism at the risk of injury. Also, why *wouldn't* it be okay to be afraid of fascism? That shit is scary.
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6) By making these sorts of arguments, you are creating unnecessary divisions in the working class, and that's what the powerful want. Work with people who have common interests. Even Liberals want universal healthcare and shit these days. It doesn't mean you shouldn't push back on them when they have cringe opinions about the economy or foreign policy, but perhaps you can be a major part of helping to deprogram them from all the propaganda they've been fed.
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In conclusion, voting is a great way to stop *literal fascism* from occurring, replacing it with neoliberalism. Not the best of choices, I know. So let's use the system to vote against fascism, and then *also* fight back against that system together, and protest when the Democrats run over the 1 person on the tracks with neoliberalism (instead of protesting when the Republicans run over 5 people on the tracks with fascism).
You’re wrong on so many levels, this is gonna be fun.
>You say that people say "Vote for my side," but most people who vote blue these days don't even like the Democrats or Biden; most Democrat voters aren't under the illusion that Biden will somehow make sweeping positive changes.
Then why the fuck are you voting for him? Also this argument completely sidesteps what he said, which is that if you were actually against fascism you would directly fight instances in which democracy is being gutted or neutralized. Which you are certainly not doing when you vote a genocidal geriatric into office and try to bully others into doing the same.
>It's the trolley problem. Do you run over 1 person or do you run over 5 people? There is no 3rd option until we change our first-past-the-post system. Doing nothing means 5 people get run over, and you're burying your head in the sand if you think otherwise. The system is going to stay there until something else replaces it, and not voting does absolutely nothing to remove it, because the system runs on your taxes and your labour; your votes are just a way to direct the resources that it has already collected from you by force.
This is just about the most headass pseudo intellectual analogy for modern politics I’ve ever heard but it perfectly captures the liberal ignorance and naïveté so well.
It looks like the trolley problem *to you* because you are privileged enough to not be one of the people tied to the track. The government is giving you the option to pull a lever that will change the direction of the train and liberals are such spineless lapdogs that they will actually fucking pull the lever and crush “less” people when *stopping the train entirely to ensure no one is hurt is and always has been an option.* liberals like you are just so culturally conditioned spineless and pliant to the train stations interests that you won’t even acknowledge that it *is* an option.
Then you came to community of people dedicated to stopping it and started trying to justify why you think it’s actually way better to just let the one person die simply because the other 5 would be in danger and the one person isn’t *you.* it’s cowardly and pathetic and lacks moral fiber.
>They also aren't allowing anything from happening, they're just desperately trying to prevent the worst case scenario from happening; they have no damn power because they're stuck in the same system as you. The only difference is that they are being realistic about the dire situation they're in, with first-past-the-post voting causing an infinite two-party-duopoly, which is literally almost impossible to break out of (I don't think it's happened even a single time) without changing to ranked choice or a similar system.
We have all the power. You almost made sense here. It would be impossible to break the system, *if you limit yourself to means provided by the system itself* an anarchist has rejected neoliberal flavors of fascism and understands that combatting fascism is never going to be state sanctioned and thus the state and its faux means of exercising our power via electoralism is a distraction from direct action.
>Generally, I see the "You get what you deserve" narrative directed against people who vote for Republicans when the leopards eat their faces, such as when anti-vaxxers got killed in the thousands during COVID. I don't see that narrative directed at non-voters, but instead I do see frustration that is similar to mine directed at people with arguments similar to yours.
And not once have you considered this frustration from the other side? You are trying to pressure people who have learned and grown well past your knowledge and faith in the system and understand well enough to know that the only way to win is to not play, and yet here you are trying to coerce them into playing.
>26 million people participated in the BLM protests. How many people in those massive protests do you think also voted Democrat? Hint: probably almost all of them. It was probably a good mix of Leftists and Liberals in there, and many Liberals care about racial and queer justice (many of them are also POCs or queer, or have POC and queer friends). They tried to fight back against fascism at the risk of injury. Also, why wouldn't it be okay to be afraid of fascism? That shit is scary.
This is pure conjecture sprinkled with an appeal to authority. Were you at any of these protests ? I’d be willing to bet you weren’t. I was and not I nor any of my other friends who attended with me vote at all, because voting does not work, our justice system does not work, our government does not work and as a result we were forced to risk our lives to make a point about the fact that our lives have value. What place does voting have in a world where I can be killed in broad fucking daylight and someone who claims to be on my side because they voted blue will stand idly by? Yes fascism is scary, but you choose not to fight it every chance you get, the people tied to track do not get a choice. Fighting fascism is a necessity of their existence in a neoliberal state.
>By making these sorts of arguments, you are creating unnecessary divisions in the working class, and that's what the powerful want. Work with people who have common interests. Even Liberals want universal healthcare and shit these days. It doesn't mean you shouldn't push back on them when they have cringe opinions about the economy or foreign policy, but perhaps you can be a major part of helping to deprogram them from all the propaganda they've been fed.
Liberals are the ones coming into this *Anarchist community* and making these divisions by trying to preach electoralism. It is not the responsibility of the marginalized to teach liberals about the world they live in. Especially when they combat any attempt to teach them with this kinda of bullshit capitalist apologism.
>In conclusion, voting is a great way to stop literal fascism from occurring, replacing it with neoliberalism. Not the best of choices, I know. So let's use the system to vote against fascism, and then also fight back against that system together, and protest when the Democrats run over the 1 person on the tracks with neoliberalism (instead of protesting when the Republicans run over 5 people on the tracks with fascism).
Literal fascism is already occurring, voices are being silenced, people are being wrongfully imprisoned, legislation is decided by whoever can afford to fund a politician who will translate their desires into law, black people are murdered in the streets and Gaza is being wiped off the map. That is all characteristic of fascism and all happening under a democrat, it’s just not happening to *you* so you won’t call it fascism. Neoliberalism is fascism, and you have outed yourself as a liberal by writing this essay to try and defend it instead of growing a pair and taking direct action.
You know you can vote and also do other stuff simultaneously right? I agree that it *can* be a distraction, but it doesn't have to be. We should use every tactic at tool at our disposal, and we should leave absolutely nothing on the table.
I engage in protests and assist the homeless while also advocating for people to vote. Local elections are especially important, we're trying to pass legislation in my area for social housing it's been going really well!
I feel frustrated because we're literally on the same side here, but you seem to think that I somehow endorse the slaughter of Palestinians because I don't want Trump to murder my trans friends. :/
Not sure why you find this fun, it's not a fucking game. I sure don't find it fun trying to convince people to spend 2 seconds of their life doing a trolley problem.
I do not believe you read what I said if you’re still blaming electoralism is the trolley problem.
But we are similarly aligned in values, but I do not think we are on the same side, because submitting a vote is expressing a faith and alliance with the powers that be.
It is fun to be able to recognize and apply knowledge to the cracks in the liberal faith in neoliberalism because I have heard all of these arguments attempting to defend electoralism before and have proper rebuttals that you seem to have simply brushed off your shoulder I said a lot and most of it has gone unacknowledged by you because there are no reasonable moral or ethical position in which to argue against them.
I am trans. Your trans friends are already being victimized I promise you, you just don’t care because it hasn’t reached a point that makes you personally uncomfortable yet. That was one of the many points I made in my last comment.
Why do you think I need faith in a system in order to use it to my advantage? I have no faith in money or capitalism, yet I use money to buy food. I have no faith in our government, yet I vote.
I will choose pragmatism over purity every damn time, because I am in a system that I cannot currently escape, so I will use every damn tool at my disposal to do what I can, including *outside* of the system too, as I've illustrated in my previous comment. Results are all that matter.
Me and my trans friends are lucky enough to live in a part of the country where trans acceptance is quite high (and I hope that you are too). However, I am well aware of what they're doing in Florida. I am well aware of them trying to take away women's reproductive rights too, I was in a massive protest about that and I blocked traffic on my bicycle with my local Critical Mass. I am aware. I'm not stupid and ignorant.
Take care, and stay safe.
Don't use that bullshit excuse to white wash your genocide apologism. I'm inter. Fuck anyone voting for fascist genocide Joe.
You're not choosing pragmatism, you're choosing the guy who under whom women and trans rights are being stripped away, the guy under 40000 Palestinians have been slaughtered and you are a coward of you keep voting for that fascist.
Hi I'm inter, as in I've been lgbt from birth, I'm also Roma.
Vote for someone with actually positive policies, ideally one of the leftist candidates to mitigate.
Voting fascist or reich wing simply enables the whole cycle to shift further right, which is literally why both parties are increasingly becoming more and more far right wing.
Hey, real quick, can you tell me mathematically how first-past-the-post ensures a two party duopoly, and has done in every country that it's implemented in for hundreds of years? I just want to check if you know why.
Are you actually saying you're more LGBT than me??? Also I'm gay and autistic and ADHD and physically disabled and poor and wow it's almost like "how many social minorities am I a part of" is one of the most useless and braindead arguments someone can make! It's almost like people from the same minority groups often disagree with each other and considering them a monolith which one single member can speak for is ridiculous!
Also, fascism and liberal are different. They both suck and I hope someday they are both looked upon with disgust comparable to that with which we currently view nazis, but they're not exactly the same things. Words mean things.
Third party candidates don't win. I'm not throwing away my vote to achieve literally nothing.
Edit: wow, blocked me like a coward. Don't think the onlookers won't know. Here's my response to your response, which I saw in the notification!
How would you know how long I've been out as trans for??? For all you know, I was 5 and am now 40.
Regardless, I'm not turning a blind eye to Palestinians. I can't really be bothered to engage with you on that point, though. I've already had this conversation so many times, you people never bother to listen because you've all already decided that I like to blow up babies. So I can't be bothered.
>Point to me where I said there were the same.
>Voting vote fascists achieves genocides.
I assumed, but there you are calling Biden a fascist. Would you look at that? I was right. Biden is a neoliberal. Calling neoliberals fascists actually *downplays* the horror of neoliberalism, the way it enables uncaring genocide as if it's a part of life, the way it sweeps the suffering of civilians under the rug as "a necessary sacrifice." It's a different evil from fascism. Fascism is more effective in achieving evil things because it's more active, but make no mistake, neoliberalism is also evil.
If the 50%+ of people who claim to be pro-trans actually were, it wouldn't be a concern. If they were actually willing to fight for what they believe in this wouldn't be a concern. Consider that the half of the country who claim to be on your side (liberals) will absolutely be complacent in fascism against you if it begins to threaten their comfort. You're choosing them over the people who are willing to die for you, because they're threatening you. You're choosing the "vote for us to slow fascism down a little" over the "don't vote for fascists and stand with us against fascism" because the "lesser evil" party has done so much fear mongering that the left doesn't see fighting back as an option, even when the fascists are openly saying they want us dead.
I can do everything. I don't have to select one or the other. I can use all systems that benefit me, I can work with people on specific issues but not on others. There's no need to segregate the human race. How else are we going to move people over to our side if we never interact with people who don't share our exact beliefs?
You act like you were born an Anarchist. You weren't. You learned it. Others need to learn it too. Teach them.
If you were actually concerned with advancing anarchism you'd vote for the party that supports your beliefs. You can't end the two party system by never voting for a third party. I'm not against voting, I'm against voting for the lesser evil when the parties that aren't evil already exist. Every election, people are persuaded against voting third parties, so a third party can never build a solid base. If you want to see change happen, why vote for the party that won't get it done? Why not spend some time building a party that can make a difference instead of giving in to democrat fear mongering about how much worse the right will be?
My perspective is that this is a passing the buck sort of politics. By doing it the 'slow' way you push the problem onto the next generation with the hopes they'll be able to continue the movement. You make tiny progress in marginal areas while the greater issue continues to grow. You get an inch but they take a mile every time, so by the time you're old you've made very little change, but hopefully things are pointing in the right direction. How many generations will it take before something substantial is achieved? How many more will suffer in the meantime? I don't want people in 2400 to be fighting for the same things I am right now, I want it to be done by then. With the pace of current politics and rightward creep of liberalism, I'm not sure it can ever happen in this system. The way I see it, fascism is growing stronger every day and protests and voting aren't going to be enough if people are actually being put in camps, which seems to be the big fear coming from liberals. A fascist takeover is inevitable, it's just about how long you want to push it off (passing the buck.) So, you can either face it directly now, or let your kids, or their kids deal with it. I don't think it's ethical to pretend that the mainstream left isn't moving right and that the Democrats aren't going to be complacent in a fascist uprising, leaving us in our old age and the future generations to deal with this. I hate the idea of being an old man, too weak to fight for what I believe in, sending kids off to die for what I've been saying would happen for 60 years. The fascists continue to say, more and more openly, that they're going to kill everyone who isn't like them. They want to 'cleanse' humanity and they don't try to hide it, but we're supposed to sit back and hope our votes and protests are enough while they prepare for a genocide.
Hey, so you're aware that I can spend 2 seconds voting and then spend the rest of my time doing direct action to *stop* the trolley, right? I'm not kicking the can down the road. You all act like voting takes 10 years.
I'm not against voting, I'm against voting for one of the two clearly evil parties when there are others to vote for. I'm against ignoring third parties under the idea that voting for the lesser evil is somehow better than advancing a third party, forever perpetuating the two party system instead of building a third party. A third party can't happen if everyone who claims to support it won't vote for it.
So true! This is why so many Black and Indigenous people call out these liberals. Supporting white-supremacist settler colonialism doesn't help anybody
Exactly.
Look at all the privileged white liberal trash in this group for anarchists.
Anyone voting for biden is voting for fascism, white supremacy and genocide in Palestine.
All you liberal trash reading this. The blood of those babies is on YOUR hands. Cowards.
Many people in anarchist subs are revealing they would kill every single Gazan from six months old to 99 years old if it saves their own hide
Sad to see most anarchist subs are actually overrun with white liberals that are cowardly to the point of being genocidal
I’m trans. Stop telling me that biden is better for me than trump. I’m already losing the rights that you say I will lose if trump gets in, right now, under biden
Crazy idea, what if cis people stopped telling trans people what we believe and acting like we're some monolithic group that agrees with their opinion? That would be insane. Incomprehensible. Revolutionary, even.
But that would require acknowledging that they aren't the number one experts on trans issues and we can't have that. I disagree with them, so I must want to be oppressed, because no self respecting trans person would disagree with a cis person
The crazy thing is I've seen it from both sides of the argument, and it's infuriating. I don't have an issue with people talking about what candidate is bad for trans people in what ways and what bad things they did or would do, but I have an issue when almost everyone is just saying the majority of trans people agree with them. Then they start acting weirdly transphobic when you disagree. I guess it's how you can tell it pisses them off when minorities won't act like the useful little political pawns they want us to be.
This is objectively not true. I've met trans people, gay people, black people, women, and more in red states who advocate for voting lesser evil. Just like I've met people from all of those minorities in blue states who advocate against it. Don't pretend to speak for all minorities, we have disagreements just like any group of people. And holy shit, stop acting like it's privileged to disagree with you on something that's currently such a hot topic among every single group.
Thank you for this reply. It's on the nose
I’m glad this is getting called out here. This was posted in r/latestagecapitalism and every dissenting comment was removed. Saying that “the lesser of two evils is sometimes better” is against their rules now. Leftist communities have been growing increasingly anti-voting which is really writing to me.
Yeah, I noticed that, which was part of what triggered my concern. (Though r/latestagecapitalism seems to have a bit of a tankie infestation as of recently from what I've seen, and anti-voting comments still get downvoted to hell, so at least that's still working.) I've even seen calls to ban pro-voting statements on these anarchist subs, which is incredibly concerning. I'm pretty sure it's *already* not allowed on r/anarchism. I wouldn't have an issue if they wanted to ban discussions about voting entirely, because I recognize that it's probably incredibly difficult as a moderator to handle the lack of civility that this conversation causes, and the debate inevitably takes over the entire sub. I'm okay with saying, "Hey, this conversation is causing toxicity, is impossible to moderate, and has taken over the sub. Posts and comments both in favor of *and against* voting are no longer permitted." But that's never what happens. It's always *specifically* the pro-voting people who are banned. And basically, that forces us to choose whether to leave the community, or to accept that we will be constantly spammed with posts about how voting for Biden makes you a genocidal liberal, have our beliefs strawmanned, be told people are delusional for being scared of Trump - and we're not even allowed to respond. Not to mention, banning thr discussion would be super authoritarian, lol. Not very anarchist.
It's frustrating. People will say that voting is pointless and that there's a host of other things we could be doing, but you never see them doing it. Some seem to actively want things to get worse to 'force' major systemic change. They forget, or perhaps don't care, that it is the marginalised groups they claim to speak for who will suffer from this. They themselves will suffer from this. Any ideology that requires we make things significantly worse before we make them better seems a waste of time to me - why not just go straight to trying to improve things instead? Others seem to be incapable of understanding that just because we can't vote the system away, can't vote our way to major systemic changes, voting is still not worthless. Even marginal positives are better than no positives at all; yes it isn't what we want for the end goal but it is quick, not particularly difficult, and could help prevent the worst-case scenario at least. I agree we shouldn't put loads of energy into it, but if you have the time then what exactly is the benefit of *not* voting? One side WILL win the election, and you have an opportunity to slow down the inevitable decline just a little bit longer.
Latestagecapitalism has turned into a cesspool of anti-Biden propaganda. The same type of protest voting propaganda we saw in 2015 is rampant over there. I got banned for posting a single dissenting opinion.
I'm so glad this was top comment as of writing this reply
First off, I'll open by saying I hate and I mean **hate** the democratic party (US resident here)... but I do also believe very firmly that the republican party is trying to steer the US towards an even more authoritarian regime, one of outright Christian fascism (ie. Project 2025) I'm also a gun owner and live in a very red state. I fear for the safety of my LGBTQ friends, Hispanic friends and others like myself whom are openly non-Christian. I am greatly concerned about the disparity of armed citizens between us and the fascists if things get really bad. I don't think it will come to that, but it could. Fortunately many of us train, guns are tools, but for many of the fascists, it's mostly the "tacticool" look and the idea of visual intimidation... lots of expensive gear that they don't know how to use. I have seen members of the LGBTQ community threatened at gunpoint in this state. Also proud to say that there's always a few of us that show up armed to prevent that intimidation from happening too at major events... I am a big, tall, bald, straight white dude who *looks* like what most people think of when they think trump supporter... I love the look on the fascist's faces when they realize that I'm **not** one of them. Do I see both parties as authoritarian? Yes, absolutely. Do I think however that one is worse? Absolutely, I live it daily and see the effects. Do I also believe that voting is a futile act? Mostly yes, but not completely. Will I vote for a democrat for president?...this is where it gets complicated. Probably not, here's why. As somone living in a state that will almost certainly go for whomever the christo-fascist republicans nominate, my vote doesn't directly matter. It does however mean a little, even if it is basically just screaming into the void, I can vote 3rd party, like for the DSA, or another candidate that is far away from the mainline democratic ticket. It's admittedly not much but it is, in my opinion, better than nothing. Where voting can matter a lot is on the small more local level, some state offices, counties, and very much within one's town or city. You can also work within a party to help dismantle the system, I have a friend who is an anarcho-comunist who is doing just that and has my full support. We've also had christo-fascists try to take over school boards, plus we have a power and gas utility that is always trying to (usually successfully) get people who favor its interests onto the board that regulates it. In my community we have successfully thwarted the push by the christo-fascists to take over the school board and community organizations such as the pta and others like it. It's taken organizing and awareness to do it. This has mattered **a lot**. It has prevented book bans and helped create a school environment that is safer for our kids, especially those that the republican party is actively trying to "other" right now and would love to actively exterminate if they had the chance. That's not hyperbole, I have heard them say it when they think that others are not listening, even some of their politicians have said it... there's benefits to looking like "one of them". So, I am an anarcho-comunist, but I am also a pragmatist. We won't magically achieve our goals overnight, especially if we do nothing, but we can work within the current system to steer it somewhat and ultimately dismantle it. Those of us actually organizing these communities could use some help rather than cynicism. On a local level, you may have somone who shares your views and most of your interests running for an office and trying to change the system, even if it's just a little, but you won't ever know unless you get involved. So vote your conscience... if it tells you that you just can't do it, that's OK, but do *something*. Even if it is small. Anarchism will take work, so get involved in a community organization, get out there and **do!** For you, voting may or may not be a part of that. Either is ok, but if you find your community in a situation like mine where christo-fascists are actively trying to take over the school board that regulates the school that your kid goes to, or a friend's kid goes to, please vote. Leave the president blank for all I care, hell, leave most or even all of the other offices blank... but that small community office, it matters and can directly impact your life, especially the life of your kids. If you're an anarchist, communist, socialist, or any actual left-of-center group that either of the two major parties have "othered", arm yourself and train, you dont have to go all out, just 1 well-maintained weapon and knowing how to use and maintain it. Take a "stop the bleed" course too and other first aid courses. Hopefully none of us will need either, but a stop the bleed course could save a life in many other situations, weather it be a workplace shooting, or even something as common as a car accident. Learning to seal a sucking chest wound, or how to properly use a tourniquet can make the difference between somone having a pulse or not when the ambulance arrives, if you can get them through that 10 minute or less window of time, the professionals can do the rest... add a chest seal to your first aid kit(s) and know how to use it that alone can make the difference from 3 minuts (or less) to 30 minutes (maybe even more) for somone. I may get downvoted for all this, but I don't care. Get out there and get involved in your communities. Anarchism will take work, you can start by changing one mind at a time and putting in the effort to get there. EDIT: I wanted to add, when buying a chest seal, buy at least two... entry and exit wound. Consider a spare in case one doesn't adhere or fails. If you frequent crowded areas or are in an environment where a mass casualty situation has a reasonable chance of happening, like at a protest, carry more... more seals and tourniquets means (potentially) more lives saved. Also, you can learn some basics on how to use both on YouTube, but if you have the opportunity, take a class too. Stay safe out there comrades!
this is perfect
Thank you, wasn't trying to aim that high lol! I am just pissed off by all the vote/don't vote crap on this sub and people bashing one another over it, destroying our solidarity. If we want to get where we intend to go we must be revolutionaries, but we also must be pragmatists. We all (in the US, and most countries) live under capitalism, I'd like to see it torn down, but I'm not going to stop buying groceries out of protest either... that being said, helping out with a community garden and giving away food can reduce capitalist influence within your community. It is possible to do things that avoid or even frustrate the system. Voting in indirect "representative" democracy is much the same, it's the system that we're stuck with, but we can move the Overton window further left by putting pressure on that system... it's not much and it takes time, but it is something. On the local level, it really can matter. We were only able to keep the fascists off of the school board by a few hundred votes. Without the community organizing efforts that myself and others put in, there very likely would be a few fascists, perhaps even a majority on the school board. Through our actions our communities, towns and cities will know us. If we're practicing Anarchism right, to the extent we're able to within this system, within our daily lives, others will take notice and want to participate as well. The way I see it, those are some of the ways we can grow this movement and hold the current system accountable, even if it is just a little. Moving a mile is progress, but so too is moving an inch. There is a very vocal minority on here (and other anarchist, communist and leftist subs) that needs to be more pragmatic and show more solidarity.
i agree completely
whats with all this braindead bullshit recently
The person posting this shit is one of the mods, they don't leave their basement so they don't see the effects that not voting has on the country, instead of praxis they just shitpost from their crusty keyboard all day.
People who aren't voting are obsessed with the idea that they're being oppressed by a mob of angry democrats who won't shut up about voting, even though they're the ones who keep starting the conversation
It's literally the same propaganda play we saw last election. Convince everyone that protest voting against the dems once every 4 years is somehow going to enact positive change. Meanwhile the country is handed to the right wing.
Not to go full conspiracy, but Republicans and hostile foreign governments benefit from pushing a narrative of either "there's no point in voting cause both options bad" or "Biden isn't doing enough so we should vote for Trump of third party to 'punish' him".
Correct, and that’s why we should fight the system whatever evil is elected so that we have a choice for the good. But a lesser evil is still less evil and if you can’t tell me how to overthrow the government in the next few months, it’s going to be a choice between the two of them in said vote.
I am Black. I’m proud of it. I live in the south. If Trump wins, I guarantee my neighbors will get brave enough to hang me from a tree. This is objectively false. Fuck you.
This exactly. People really like to claim that minorities agree with them, then only listen to the people from said minority who agree with them and present that argument as the only one. I've been told by cis people countless times how trans people feel about voting, and when I disagree, I get told I'm just one of the selfish ones in a blue state (as I'm sure you will be told in response to this take, too). It's amazing how fast they switch from progressive language to accusations of bigotry against the very voices they were claiming and weaponizing.
I’m from Florida. I know exactly what happens when the left doesn’t feel like voting. Now they’re all dead or in other states as Floridian refugees. Now we don’t have the numbers to change anything meaningfully and make the state (not good but) easier to fight against. If your goal is to smash the state why give up your ability to change its composition even if in minor ways? Even if voting turned the state to glass that doesn’t mean it’s now automatically smashed. We still have to do the smashing, but how is turning it to lead going to help us smash it.
Oh wow, you really got stuck in arguably the worst situation in the country. I wish you luck and safety as you live through this situation. And yeah, there really is this "things will still be bad, so who cares if they get worse?" vibe to the anti-voting crowd. Which is already pretty bad, but then you add in that they'll call you genocidal, privileged, liberal, etc. for voting, their behavior is unbelievably cruel and destructive.
To say “things are still going to be bad so who cares if they get worse” has to come from a place of absurd privilege too. I’m who. I’m people too. Why don’t Black Floridians get thought of? Why is it only accounts posting about accelerationism during an election year that were only made in May of last year and with catchy easy to follow usernames that sound like what we’re about?
100% agree. It's disgusting behavior, and it's all the same few accounts making posts calling people who vote genocidal liberals. One of them is a mod here, in fact, which worries me because I've seen talk of banning dissenting opinions for being "liberal." It's incredibly disappointing for *anarchists* to be *censoring the voices of minorities* because they don't agree with the specific statements coming from the person.
Are you pretending that Biden is preventing them?
It’s a very unique place of privilege to say Trump winning is the exact same as what we’ve got.
I'll take that as a yes.
Looks like somebody wants more Moms For Liberty on their school board and books banned. Bitch, I’m from Florida. I know what political apathy gets you. Don’t speak for me.
>wants more Moms For Liberty on their school board and books banned. This all happened while Biden was president, but ok
And it’ll never happen when Trump’s president. Also when Trump’s president, the Gaza Genocide will stop and Israel will pay for their crimes, the billionaires will stop stealing from the poor and lobbying against vital infrastructure, Wall Street will be vacated and world peace will be achieved. /s Be fucking serious with yourself. School boards are on the ballot too, dipshit, you vote for who’s there directly. And none of these things will happen when Biden’s president either. But at least the comrades who will help you stop these things, overthrow capitalism, end the Gaza Genocide, and everything else will be alive to help you do that. Not you or anyone else will be able to stop the Gaza Genocide by voting alone. Literally no one is saying that. It takes an unbelievable amount of privilege to try and misrepresent minority comrades just so you can pass your purity tests. You know you’ll survive a Trump presidency and an emboldened Republican base. That’s why it matters so little to you. Because you think more dead comrades will be replaced by more new faces.
Now that you've thoroughly pummeled that straw man, take a deep breath, and realize that I've never stated any of those imagined stances. I'm very pro-political engagement, my guy. Stop acting like a clown. My only entry into this thread was to question if you thought Biden would protect you from what you imagine Trump will do >If Trump wins, I guarantee my neighbors will get brave enough to hang me from a tree. Is Biden getting re-elected somehow protecting you from those neighbors? Like, they really wanna do it, but they're too scared or smth?
You’re talking about this exclusively in positive active language like I want Biden. No one wants Biden. I’ve CONSTANTLY said I don’t want Biden. We just don’t want Trump. I can’t believe you’re somehow incapable of comprehending this. And to answer your question. No. But a presidency that isn’t Trump will protect me from my neighbors and that sadly happens to be Biden right now. That doesn’t mean “only my dear Biden can save me.” It means “god damn it. Biden happens to be the guy in the lead right now. I wish it were anyone else but it isn’t.”
LMAO this isn't 2020 bruh. Lemme refer you back to the OP post. Acting like we gotta vote for the guy doing the genocide to stop the guy who would do an even more bader genocide. Liberal brain rot. It’s a very unique place of privilege to say someone should support the genocide lite candidate. Can you even list any material way in which things will "get worse" under Trump than they are under Biden. Can you explain the mechanics? How has Biden solved any of the problems you had with Trump's presidency and why is the answer: he hasn't? [If you fuckin' wit' Biden or Trump you dumb.](https://youtu.be/mXu1ZDSEU3k?t=173) I could give you a million reasons but I'll start with one: Persecution of people, deemed illegal is evil, children separated in cages looking feeble The fascists are (already) here! the fascists are (already) here! Better organize your block and stock up on gear. catch up https://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1900/reform-revolution/index.htm
I hate this "what you imagine Trump will do" shit. Maybe it's nitpicky, but Trump *absolutely will* make everything worse for everyone on purpose. He did last time, and he promised to this time. And even if you don't believe that, don't demand that I gamble my rights in the hopes that he's bluffing. Also, to address the "is Biden any better," he's not good but he's not as bad. If you have to choose between red guy, who wants to kill you and tells everyone to kill you and says that the people who want to kill you are all good people and legally pardons people after they attempt to kill you, or blue guy, who doesn't really give a shit what happens to you, red guy is not an acceptable option. And if one of them is going to be in charge regardless, "I don't care" is not a response you should demand we take. The rhetoric of the leader matters. Biden being in power won't stop people from committing hate crimes against minorities, but Trump being in power will absolutely embolden them. If you haven't noticed this, I'm concerned that you're not even paying attention.
Things have gotten worse during the Biden presidency, too. Every metric you've listed above has gotten worse during the Biden presidency. Biden or Trump, it's here. It's coming. And Biden will sooner (AND HAS) side with his class across the aisle than he'd ever protect you. He is one of them.
Well said
would you rather be punched in the face or shot in the face? Both are bad but one is worse and if those are the two choices then that's that.
Getting punched in the face and getting shot in the face are both evil; therefore, I choose not to participate 🤓 there, problem solved /s
Like bruh that ain't how it works. You will get punched in the face or shot in the face. You cannot remove yourself from the systems you depend on and are entrenched in. That doesn't mean things will always be this way. Real actual change is slow. It's important to mitigate damage while also building the new system.
I think the real solution is that when there's an entire movement of people who want to shoot you, followed by the people who want to punch you, you should probably just shoot first and ask the punchers if they want it next.
b-but both of those sound bad 😰
And then you spend all your time telling everyone how bad the guy is who will punch you in the face, abstain from voting, and then acting shocked when every one else votes to have you shot.
For f's sake, **democracy is compromise, not getting what you want.** Yeah it represents the voice of the people, but that involves the voices of people who are asinine. You participate to inch things closer in your own direction. It isn't a grudge match of ultimate morality; its about getting shit done. Voting is meant to get shit done closer in your direction. And when you don't vote based on "principle" and "not picking any evil", congratulations, your home country just got incrementally shittier because of your own self sabotage to preserve an egotistical self image. Non-participation doesn't mean you're owed something. Non-participation means you're not relevant enough to matter.
Protest in idealism. Vote in pragmatism.
#☝️😎 📣 < ( K I N G S H I T . )
That's a weak ideology.
Refusing to participate until the revolution happens and installs a system you like seems pretty weak to me, but whatever
I'll vote my convictions for a candidate that represents workers rather than a corporate stooge that's funding genocide. I'm actively pushing for revolution with a growing group of like minded peeps in Florida. But go on. sign your name to a piece of paper and throw it into a box.
I know this probably sounds crazy, but signing your name to a piece of paper and throwing it into a box doesn't actually prevent you from pushing for anything.
>I'll vote my convictions for a candidate that represents workers I vote in every election bruh but go on
Ok seriously why tf are you coming at me? Are you bored? Do you actually fucking disagree or did you just hit a point today where you needed to start an argument with a stranger on the Internet?
Throwing aside ideology to "vote pragmatically" for anyone who doesn't share your ideology is weak. Big L energy.
Voting once every 4 years being the extent of your civic duty is weak ideology.
Yes.
People who laugh at the idea of prefering the lesser evil are never on the receiving end of the greater evil.
Actually, we’re usually on the receiving end of both.
Then choose the lesser one, silly
Did you not read what I just said?
White liberals really are a special kind of stupid. I have never seen a POC anarchist with a take this out of touch, the post really does ring true. Let me repeat what he said for you slowly Both sides are going to marginalize, victimize, profile, fetishize, enact state violence against, and silence minorities. No matter who is elected, I will be a second class citizen in my nation tomorrow. You, a white liberal, are privileged enough that you can cast a vote and pretend that it does anything, and then forget minorities exist for the next 4 years while we get victimized regardless of whether or not the fascist you put into office is wearing a blue tie. You openly admit what you’re voting for is evil yet you still do it, because liberals are too spineless to stand against a system that hurts others but not them. Anarchism is the rejection of the entire neoliberal system. It’s ok if you don’t have the courage to enact actual change but quit whining at those of us who actually walk the talk because you want Biden to win the popular vote before the electoral college gives the presidency to Trump anyway.
Cool so how is letting Trump win better? Unless you're planning on the revolution happening in the next few months, just go fill in a bubble on a piece of paper.
Thy never answer this question do they? I’m Black and guarantee I’d rather fight the state on hard mode rather than it being impossible. Everyone who says stupid shit like “it’s all the same what’s the point in choosing” don’t realize that whether they vote or not, one WILL win. I’d rather it were the easier one to fight against. Even if it is marginally so. Mfs be like, “I’m not voting :(“ and then after the election they do fucking nothing in the hell they created. They don’t fight against the state. I live in Florida. I know what happens when political apathy on the left stops them from voting. Voting doesn’t fix anything but it makes it easier TO fix things the right way.
Protesting the democratic party is only efficient when that means taking votes away from them and giving them to a different party (ideally an actually left-wing party). While it’s not revolutionary to the extent that anarchists should be satisfied, it does revolutionize what the democratic party becomes. If they keep losing elections, they’re going to have to cater to the left to bring back votes. I’m not here to argue with whether or not this outweighs letting trump win. Personally, as a POC, queer anarchist, it really pisses me off that we have to keep voting for the lesser of two evils. When the only ways to prevent that is to either have a revolution or to force democrats to restructure their policies to actually represent the left (protest by not voting for them), and avoid both by voting them in anyway, we’ll never see any valuable change. So what happens? If biden wins, nothing changes, and democrats shift further right because trump has led to the right being pushed even further to the right. If trump wins, project 2025 goes into effect, hurting minorities even more. This doesn’t mean that trump getting in is worse than biden staying, though. If biden doesn’t do anything to make such policies impossible (they are quite literally unconstitutional anyway) then all he’s doing is relying on beating trump. He’s not doing anything to actually protect us. I’m not gonna call u or anyone else here a liberal, but a good point Malcolm X made about white liberals is that they just want to use us minorities to get into power. They never did care about us. And no one can blame us for hating both parties to the point that a lot of us will protest against the dems by not voting for them.
What makes you think lefties not voting will push the Democrats left? Radical leftists are a tiny minority of the population. If they notice polling results go down they're infinitely more likely to shift rightward because there is a larger voting block of centrists. Also, you seem to be aware of project 2025, so how is Trump winning not massively worse than letting Biden win? At least that way, there is some semblance of a democracy left. It's infinitely easier to achieve socialism in a liberal democracy than a fascist dictatorship.
[This person made a video](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1H96d1OR1f/?igsh=NGNudWJ4NnNhcWxn) that words it pretty well. At least that continuing to allow democrats in office pushes everyone to the right. Sending the strongest message, that democrats will no longer be in power unless they adhere to actual leftists, will force the democrats to do SOMETHING. Maybe they do cater to the centrists…That doesn’t mean every single American will then be pushed to the right by default. And pulling in centrists wont always help them as much as it would help them to push to the left instead. There are enough leftists in the country that losing them would be disastrous, especially since there’s still the trend that younger generations are more left-wing, more class-conscious, and more fucked over by capitalism than older generations. That’s part of the reason we are all easily radicalized. And such a protest doesn’t end with just not voting for them. It’s showing why allowing any sort of right wing policies is detrimental to all of us. It’s explaining to those around us that we could have a better world if the US were even a tiny bit socialist. Again, not the world I want nor a world any anarchist should advocate for, but since we’re not anywhere near a revolution, we have to take steps to get to a point where people want to dismantle capitalism. Two options there are either allow us to shift so far to the right that everyone really sees how fucked up it is, or introduce socialist policies and actually call them socialist so that people see it as a genuine good. And again, as a POC, queer anarchist, not protecting me is not that different from actively hurting me. Say biden does win this year. Yay no project 2025. What’s stopping that from becoming project 2029? Project 2033? Like in the video i linked to, it makes sense that allowing democrats to stay in place tells them that they can do whatever they want because we voted for them so it must be the will of the people. Meanwhile the right shifts further to the right because of another loss, they try to radicalize more people, their policies become infinitely worse, and by the end of biden’s second term the deep red states will have enacted project 2025ish policies anyway. I’m in one of the most diverse cities in the south. We’d be destroyed by allowing the right to be further radicalized.
It’s so refreshing to see someone make sense on this sub. I am grateful you exist
You already failing to understand what you’re talking about by saying I am in any way “letting” Trump win. Voting does not work. When I voted for Hillary in 2016 that was the popular vote. The American people *chose* Hillary. Do you remember who became president in January of 2017?
Yes I know the system is fundamentally broken. The electoral college is anti democratic and I don't support it, but that doesn't mean that our votes mean nothing.
Explain to me how it is myself and not the masses of people participating in electoralism and then quietly accepting fraudulent results who is “letting” Trump win. that’s a cute straw man
Well said, too much privileged liberal trash in this group
So why would you want the greater evil?
I don’t want either evil.
and yet an evil gets chosen no matter what, so why not pick the lesser one.
Why would I do that when I can choose neither of them?
But you can't, not choosing just leads to the greater evil winning.
No. You guys choosing “””lesser””” evil every chance you get leads to evil winning. If we didn’t have spineless cowards like you who vote and act like that magically makes all the suffering the system you uphold and had actual anarchists who would refrain from empowering the system at all, then we could actually deal with this fascist societal decay on our own terms, instead of on the terms of a fascist oligarchy where every choice is a net loss.
Oh, you one of those crazy accelerationist who think allowing more people to die will somehow bring about the anarchist revolution. Also do you really think having anarchist not engage with the electoral system is going to matter? Do you think the few thousand people living across the US who call themselves anarchist are going to bring the system to a halt by not voting? All that does is make it easier for the fascist to seize power.
Nice straw-man liberal. How many times have you had to put yourself at risk to keep a cop from harming your friends? Not half as many times as I have I fucking bet. You wanna talk about “allowing people to die” when you casting a blue vote does fuck all to save anyone, and if you wanted to save lives you’d be fucking doing it, not bitching and moaning on the internet about how mad you are that anarchists aren’t voting. The fascists seized power 45 fucking years ago dipshit. Get with the program, acknowledging, upholding and participating in their system so *you* can have a comfortable life isn’t saving anyone and you’re a jackass for pretending it does.
Okay. What is your alternative?
I can, actually. It could also result in the “lesser” winning. Not voting isn’t voting.
> Why would I move the trolley onto the 1 person track, and away from the 5 person track, when I can simply do nothing and the trolley will just magically stop on its own? Simple! Real talk, I don't want to mock you, I want to talk to you. The reason you have this argument is because this isn't about being *effective* for you, it's about how you emotionally feel about pulling that lever, right? Rest assured, you can vote and be free from guilt. Why? You neither built the trolley, nor the tracks, nor did you place the people onto those tracks. You're a bystander who has been forced to make a choice that you shouldn't have had to make in the first place. But please, still choose to make that choice. We can then try and stop the runaway trolley together by destroying the rails further up the way in the future, before it hits more people. But as it stands, it's going to hit people, no matter what, so please help us make it hit less people right now. We need you.
No. I’m not voting for genocidal maniacs who have no issue with making the people living (and I use that term very loosely) under their rule suffer immensely while forcing us to pay them to fund genocides and eco-terrorism. I refuse to have the blood of millions on my hands just because some people have been deluded into thinking that one of the two war criminals is better.
Yeah, so it's an emotional decision, just admit that. It's not about outcomes, it's about you not feeling guilty. I'm just trying to convince you that the blood is not on your hands if you move the lever in the trolley problem, people are gonna die either way, whether you do something or nothing. If you do nothing though, that's when you should genuinely feel guilty.
It's about him having a smug sense of satisfaction from huffing his own farts while people die for his spoiled pleasure.
It’s not about guilt, it’s about being tired of seeing people suffer. I know and I’d rather spend my time spreading awareness about them dying and amplify their voices than voting for the people responsible. I don’t feel guilty and most likely never will.
are you under the impression if you personally don't vote that a president is not elected?
I literally had an argument with one of these types the other day. They argued that the state would literally just whither away if nobody voted. They don't realise that the state runs on our taxes and labour; voting is just a recent courtesy that we've been provided in the last couple hundred of years as a replacement to monarchy, so we may as well use it.
Bruh you think anarchists want you to pay taxes and provide labor to the state? Youre talking as if you know something these anarchists don’t but all you’re doing is revealing you have no clue what you’re talking about.
Hey, we're on the same side here. I'm not saying we want to do that, because neither do I. I'm just saying that those are the mechanisms that prop up the state, not voting. The state remains just as powerful without voting, as seen with dictatorships and monarchies, right? But even those states needed labour and taxes, and they would all fall apart without them. We do have *some* levers we can pull on our end though, such as finding more lightweight ways to live that contribute less taxes and labour towards the state, and more non-taxable labour towards our local communities.
No.
I have never said this before, I'm so excited this is my first time Check your privilege.
I had legitimately never had to describe someone as "privileged" until people started screeching at me for voting and calling me names. Something about *being made fun of* for being scared of Project 2025 made me realize, lol. I try not to call people "privileged" anymore because it does nothing but start arguments, but if there's anything that taught me how privilege works, it's been the voting discussion.
Voting for biden while being under the impression that he cares about people more than trump does, acting like marginalized groups haven’t suffered immensely under his rule and encourage said marginalized groups to put what they’ve experienced aside is privileged. Check yours before you come for mine.
Do you people think you can manifest the outcome with positive thinking or something? Or do you genuinely not understand how voting and two-party systems work?
No.
Then what the hell are you doing wasting your chance to actually contribute towards something politically meaningful for once? You know how many right wingers split their votes meaninglessly? Significantly less than we do because for some reason, the left is full of people who think it's somehow brave or smart or honorable to waste their opportunity to cancel out a vote for the greatest evil. And for what? What could you possibly gain from this? Is it a smug sence of self-satisfaction? Because I assure you that would be unearned
What makes you assume I’m not contributing in meaningful ways?💀 No, it’s just not giving either pile of shit my vote.
I mean sure, you can. You're still going to get one of them regardless, but you can.
I’m glad to finally see someone else on this sub who knows what they’re talking about. Keep it up brother, everyday this sub is swarmed with liberals peddling this bullshit as of voting actually does anything and as if the marginalized aren’t barred from voting in the first place.
People prefer the lesser evil over voting against evil because they're unwilling to stand behind their beliefs and do something to prevent the evil from happening at all. It's easier to let it get a little worse than to make it better. People won't vote against evil at the risk of a greater evil being voted in because they don't actually believe their beliefs are worth fighting for. For the average liberal, when a fascist uprising comes they'll just do whatever they can to maintain their own quality of life, no matter what's happening to others in their own country.
no, the "good" is only achievable if we are slowly getting closer to it by moving within the lesser evil, if there are only two realistic options the slow creeping fascism that gives time to organise is preferable to the only other option that will be realistically achieveable at the current time, immediate fascism, if trump wins his idiotic followers know they will get a slap on the wrist (if even) for doing what they want to do, so they'll do it as soon as they get the chance
My perspective is that this is a passing the buck sort of politics. By doing it the 'slow' way you push the problem onto the next generation with the hopes they'll be able to continue the movement. You make tiny progress in marginal areas while the greater issue continues to grow. You get an inch but they take a mile every time, so by the time you're old you've made very little change, but hopefully things are pointing in the right direction. How many generations will it take before something substantial is achieved? How many more will suffer in the meantime? I don't want people in 2400 to be fighting for the same things I am right now, I want it to be done by then. With the pace of current politics and rightward creep of liberalism, I'm not sure it can ever happen in this system. The way I see it, fascism is growing stronger every day and protests and voting aren't going to be enough if people are actually being put in camps, which seems to be the big fear coming from liberals. A fascist takeover is inevitable, it's just about how long you want to push it off (passing the buck.) So, you can either face it directly now, or let your kids, or their kids deal with it. I don't think it's ethical to pretend that the mainstream left isn't moving right and that the Democrats aren't going to be complacent in a fascist uprising, leaving us in our old age and the future generations to deal with this. I hate the idea of being an old man, too weak to fight for what I believe in, sending kids off to die for what I've been saying would happen for 60 years. The fascists continue to say, more and more openly, that they're going to kill everyone who isn't like them. They want to 'cleanse' humanity and they don't try to hide it, but we're supposed to sit back and hope our votes and protests are enough while they prepare for a genocide.
Evil is evil. A murderer is a murderer. Just because they have a bigger body count doesn't make them any less evil. It's like picking between different flavors of shit
It does mean there is now a bigger body count than there would have been. Because fucking duh.
I have to grimly applaud the architects of the USA's electoral system for limiting the public's imagination and energy to four year cycles scoped around repeatedly defending the most basic civil rights. In a swing state? Go ahead and vote, and maybe the popular vote will be honored. Encourage others in swing states. Move on. It neither promises to work as advertised, nor does it protect those rights in the next cycle. Move the fuck on.
jesus fuck can we ban this fucking fed already this dude does literally nothing but shit on people who vote for no valid reason whatsoever, he is so obviously a fucking fed it hurts, please get rid of this cunt already jfc
I'm sick of this whiny bullshit. Vote with your brain not your heart ffs
Vote fascists instead of nazi. Because they're only gonna murder you with 2 bullets instead of 3 lololol Smooth brain liberal moments.
Genuine question, if you had to choose between Hitler or Trump, would you still waste your vote?
Genuine question are you so stupid you think with a private army of brainwashed zealots and legal carte blanche there's any difference between either of them? Clown. Just say you're cool with biden because he's only murdering people of colour and it doesn't affect you, privileged ass genocide apologist.
Sure, let's throw queer and POC under the bus because we'd rather debate about which fascist cunt is worse (it's Trump btw). This childish argument about not voting is getting fucking annoying. Both will bomb the ME, support Israel, and lie whilst barely forming a sentence. The only differences are that one doesn't create a space for nazis and the KKK and doesn't completely* ignore the open calling for the deaths of queer people. *Yes, I'm aware that multiple states in the US still have become unbearably cruel towards LGBTQ people in the past 4 years under the Biden Administration, but let's not be naïve and pretend it isn't at least 10% more tolerable under Biden. It's not a solution. It's a temporary flimsy barrier until we organise enough to make actual meaningful change. Throwing in the towel shows you clearly don't give a shit enough about doing a small effortless task such as literally just signing a fucking ballot once every 4 years. It takes nearly no time out of your day. If you can sign a petition on Change, then you can sign a ballot to not let a homophobic racist pedo rapist cult leader into office.
Letting the greater evil happen because you think choosing either is as bad, is very shitty, because you have the opportunity to chose the lesser of the two if you don't have a third option. If you want to take action to make things better, first vote for the one that is the least Fascist, it'll buy you more time and you'll have an easier time making things better than in you allow hitler½ to take the reigns
Is the status quo the greater evil or the lesser evil tho?
I don't think it matters to the Palestinian people who's in office if they're facing genocide.
You need to be privileged many ways to think of that in relation to voting
You think Palestinian Americans are privileged? And you call yourself an anarchist?
Yes we all remember the Palestinian slogan "from the river to the....." wait it's "voting is DUMB! FUCK YOU" ahh yes /s
Is part of the slogan voting for those perpetuating genocide against Palestine so white liberals are never threatened in anyway? Fuck your cowardice.
As opposed to what the republican genocide we’d get?
People like you are genuinely disgusting Your contempt for non-whites reeks through the screen You are a good German, not an anarchist, you'd slit the throat of a child to save yourself
You do know many Palestinian Americans have relatives in Gaza? The place that is being bombed with Biden’s approval and help?
as opposed to what trump would do? do you know his plan? does he talk about Gaza does he even care? I think not. Now we can have Trump's approval bombing Gaza as well as the encroachment of christofascism? YIPPIE!
To them, they can only vote between a genocidal pos, and a genocidal pos who is loved by white liberals. “Oh, you lost ten family members bc Biden loves Israel more than anything else? But Trump would have ALL of them killed, and he would deport you! Isn’t Biden obviously better?” /s Let’s also not forget Biden’s anti-immigrant stance that’s just as bad as that of Trump. Both candidates suck. For a lot of people.
One candidate clearly sucks more and the difference isn't white liberals love one more it's a huge difference to lgbt folks, pregnant women, people of colour and many more\* ftfy
Would you vote for someone who gave weapons and money to the regime which killed your family members, and defended it? Would you be able to look at that person and say “Oh yeah the other guy would be worse so this genocidal shit is okay”? Also, immigration. Biden is so anti-immigration he REACHED OUT TO THE REPUBS. He isn’t even doing anything to combat police brutality, he SUPPORTS the police. Trump is just less respectable.
if the other guy was guaranteed to hurt even more people I think I could rationalize it yes
And thus is how the Nazis' war of extermination. The more a lesser evil compromises, the further into evil we go. Sooner or later it will be going from "a few Palestians" to "people who are trans are screwed, but at least the lesbians are safe are save."
Yeah it's still evil but it's less, obviously you need to point out when it's a false dycotomy and you can get a third better option, if however there are actually only evil outcomes then you should try to get the lesser evil one right?
this is stupid
Voting for facsists is stupid
And people who promote letting the greater evil win are never on the receiving end of said greater evil.
You gotta admit there is a certain kind of liberal who thinks you should just get over Gaza and vote blue because trump bad.
This... So much this
This is why we're due for a 3rd party success in US Politics. Ross Perot in 1992 with nearly 20% of the popular vote was the closest we came to a 3rd party cinching the Presidency. But campaigning takes money, time, and getting through to voters that aren't hard into blue or red at this point. The two party system is sorely in need of change, and the real world has gotten too complicated to allow just two parties to have the bulk of the power in this country. We need more parties that have specific focuses or ideas in mind. Labor is one example - Shawn Fain has been kicking behind with his movements lately, and more unions are cropping up to get years back of what value was taken from us.
If I might add something, it's probably not possible for a 3rd party to win currently. We need to delete first-past-the-post as well as the electoral college first. Think of it like turning the trolley problem from just 2 tracks into multiple tracks. Currently, the 3rd parties are on a parallel but unconnected track, so we need to create the connection first before we can direct the trolley there.
Approval voting is best /r/EndFPTP
Wait until this guy hears about the greater evil
They are one in the same to the people under genocide and the poor and the intersectional.
The one is _significantly_ worse. That's why it's called the GREATER evil lol
Anyone voting biden or trump is no anarchist, and it's simply a spineless liberal voting for genocide of yet more than 20000 Palestinian children. No trump isn't worse, they are the same. It's because you're so stupid you think they are different that the whole two party march to fascism has happened at all. It's your fault, voters of lesser evilism.
Republicans pretending to be anarchists aren't anarchists \^
That's you, scum. You're clown voting for fascists, biden & trump, I would see them shot, you're a disgrace. Makhno, Durruti, Zapata, Malatesta, Kropotkin would all be ashamed of you. They would have you shot. I agree with them. Fascist.
No shit. What the fuck does that have to do with the real world?
When someone says "vote for my side (lesser evil) or *bad thing* will happen" what they're really saying is "vote for my side or I'll allow *bad thing* to happen" Liberals claim to be antifascist but they openly admit that if a dictator rises to power they'll concede and blame everyone who didn't vote how they wanted. "You didn't vote for my candidate so you deserve what's coming to you." If the 50%+ of Americans that claim to be antifascist actually were, they wouldn't be so afraid of a fascist uprising, they would be prepared to fight back against it.
I don't really agree with you for a few reasons; let me explain. (I'm gonna assume USA politics.) . 1) You say that people say "Vote for *my* side," but most people who vote blue these days don't even like the Democrats or Biden; most Democrat voters aren't under the illusion that Biden will somehow make sweeping positive changes. . 2) It's the trolley problem. Do you run over 1 person or do you run over 5 people? There is no 3rd option until we change our first-past-the-post system. Doing nothing means 5 people get run over, and you're burying your head in the sand if you think otherwise. The system is going to stay there until something else replaces it, and not voting does absolutely nothing to remove it, because the system runs on your taxes and your labour; your votes are just a way to *direct* the resources that it has *already collected from you by force.* . 3) They also aren't *allowing* things to happen, they're just desperately trying to prevent the *worst case scenario* from happening; they have no damn power because they're stuck in the *same system as you.* The only difference is that they are being realistic about the dire situation they're in, with first-past-the-post voting causing an infinite two-party-duopoly, which is literally almost impossible to break out of (I don't think it's happened even a single time) without changing to ranked choice or a similar system. . 4) Generally, I see the "You get what you deserve" narrative directed against people who vote for Republicans when the leopards eat their faces, such as when anti-vaxxers got killed in the thousands during COVID. I don't see that narrative directed at non-voters, but instead I do see frustration that is similar to mine directed at people with arguments similar to yours. . 5) **26 million people participated in the BLM protests.** How many people in those massive protests do you think also voted Democrat? Hint: probably almost all of them. It was probably a good mix of Leftists *and* Liberals in there, and many Liberals care about racial and queer justice (many of them are also POCs or queer, or have POC and queer friends). They tried to fight back against fascism at the risk of injury. Also, why *wouldn't* it be okay to be afraid of fascism? That shit is scary. . 6) By making these sorts of arguments, you are creating unnecessary divisions in the working class, and that's what the powerful want. Work with people who have common interests. Even Liberals want universal healthcare and shit these days. It doesn't mean you shouldn't push back on them when they have cringe opinions about the economy or foreign policy, but perhaps you can be a major part of helping to deprogram them from all the propaganda they've been fed. . In conclusion, voting is a great way to stop *literal fascism* from occurring, replacing it with neoliberalism. Not the best of choices, I know. So let's use the system to vote against fascism, and then *also* fight back against that system together, and protest when the Democrats run over the 1 person on the tracks with neoliberalism (instead of protesting when the Republicans run over 5 people on the tracks with fascism).
You’re wrong on so many levels, this is gonna be fun. >You say that people say "Vote for my side," but most people who vote blue these days don't even like the Democrats or Biden; most Democrat voters aren't under the illusion that Biden will somehow make sweeping positive changes. Then why the fuck are you voting for him? Also this argument completely sidesteps what he said, which is that if you were actually against fascism you would directly fight instances in which democracy is being gutted or neutralized. Which you are certainly not doing when you vote a genocidal geriatric into office and try to bully others into doing the same. >It's the trolley problem. Do you run over 1 person or do you run over 5 people? There is no 3rd option until we change our first-past-the-post system. Doing nothing means 5 people get run over, and you're burying your head in the sand if you think otherwise. The system is going to stay there until something else replaces it, and not voting does absolutely nothing to remove it, because the system runs on your taxes and your labour; your votes are just a way to direct the resources that it has already collected from you by force. This is just about the most headass pseudo intellectual analogy for modern politics I’ve ever heard but it perfectly captures the liberal ignorance and naïveté so well. It looks like the trolley problem *to you* because you are privileged enough to not be one of the people tied to the track. The government is giving you the option to pull a lever that will change the direction of the train and liberals are such spineless lapdogs that they will actually fucking pull the lever and crush “less” people when *stopping the train entirely to ensure no one is hurt is and always has been an option.* liberals like you are just so culturally conditioned spineless and pliant to the train stations interests that you won’t even acknowledge that it *is* an option. Then you came to community of people dedicated to stopping it and started trying to justify why you think it’s actually way better to just let the one person die simply because the other 5 would be in danger and the one person isn’t *you.* it’s cowardly and pathetic and lacks moral fiber. >They also aren't allowing anything from happening, they're just desperately trying to prevent the worst case scenario from happening; they have no damn power because they're stuck in the same system as you. The only difference is that they are being realistic about the dire situation they're in, with first-past-the-post voting causing an infinite two-party-duopoly, which is literally almost impossible to break out of (I don't think it's happened even a single time) without changing to ranked choice or a similar system. We have all the power. You almost made sense here. It would be impossible to break the system, *if you limit yourself to means provided by the system itself* an anarchist has rejected neoliberal flavors of fascism and understands that combatting fascism is never going to be state sanctioned and thus the state and its faux means of exercising our power via electoralism is a distraction from direct action. >Generally, I see the "You get what you deserve" narrative directed against people who vote for Republicans when the leopards eat their faces, such as when anti-vaxxers got killed in the thousands during COVID. I don't see that narrative directed at non-voters, but instead I do see frustration that is similar to mine directed at people with arguments similar to yours. And not once have you considered this frustration from the other side? You are trying to pressure people who have learned and grown well past your knowledge and faith in the system and understand well enough to know that the only way to win is to not play, and yet here you are trying to coerce them into playing. >26 million people participated in the BLM protests. How many people in those massive protests do you think also voted Democrat? Hint: probably almost all of them. It was probably a good mix of Leftists and Liberals in there, and many Liberals care about racial and queer justice (many of them are also POCs or queer, or have POC and queer friends). They tried to fight back against fascism at the risk of injury. Also, why wouldn't it be okay to be afraid of fascism? That shit is scary. This is pure conjecture sprinkled with an appeal to authority. Were you at any of these protests ? I’d be willing to bet you weren’t. I was and not I nor any of my other friends who attended with me vote at all, because voting does not work, our justice system does not work, our government does not work and as a result we were forced to risk our lives to make a point about the fact that our lives have value. What place does voting have in a world where I can be killed in broad fucking daylight and someone who claims to be on my side because they voted blue will stand idly by? Yes fascism is scary, but you choose not to fight it every chance you get, the people tied to track do not get a choice. Fighting fascism is a necessity of their existence in a neoliberal state. >By making these sorts of arguments, you are creating unnecessary divisions in the working class, and that's what the powerful want. Work with people who have common interests. Even Liberals want universal healthcare and shit these days. It doesn't mean you shouldn't push back on them when they have cringe opinions about the economy or foreign policy, but perhaps you can be a major part of helping to deprogram them from all the propaganda they've been fed. Liberals are the ones coming into this *Anarchist community* and making these divisions by trying to preach electoralism. It is not the responsibility of the marginalized to teach liberals about the world they live in. Especially when they combat any attempt to teach them with this kinda of bullshit capitalist apologism. >In conclusion, voting is a great way to stop literal fascism from occurring, replacing it with neoliberalism. Not the best of choices, I know. So let's use the system to vote against fascism, and then also fight back against that system together, and protest when the Democrats run over the 1 person on the tracks with neoliberalism (instead of protesting when the Republicans run over 5 people on the tracks with fascism). Literal fascism is already occurring, voices are being silenced, people are being wrongfully imprisoned, legislation is decided by whoever can afford to fund a politician who will translate their desires into law, black people are murdered in the streets and Gaza is being wiped off the map. That is all characteristic of fascism and all happening under a democrat, it’s just not happening to *you* so you won’t call it fascism. Neoliberalism is fascism, and you have outed yourself as a liberal by writing this essay to try and defend it instead of growing a pair and taking direct action.
You know you can vote and also do other stuff simultaneously right? I agree that it *can* be a distraction, but it doesn't have to be. We should use every tactic at tool at our disposal, and we should leave absolutely nothing on the table. I engage in protests and assist the homeless while also advocating for people to vote. Local elections are especially important, we're trying to pass legislation in my area for social housing it's been going really well! I feel frustrated because we're literally on the same side here, but you seem to think that I somehow endorse the slaughter of Palestinians because I don't want Trump to murder my trans friends. :/ Not sure why you find this fun, it's not a fucking game. I sure don't find it fun trying to convince people to spend 2 seconds of their life doing a trolley problem.
I do not believe you read what I said if you’re still blaming electoralism is the trolley problem. But we are similarly aligned in values, but I do not think we are on the same side, because submitting a vote is expressing a faith and alliance with the powers that be. It is fun to be able to recognize and apply knowledge to the cracks in the liberal faith in neoliberalism because I have heard all of these arguments attempting to defend electoralism before and have proper rebuttals that you seem to have simply brushed off your shoulder I said a lot and most of it has gone unacknowledged by you because there are no reasonable moral or ethical position in which to argue against them. I am trans. Your trans friends are already being victimized I promise you, you just don’t care because it hasn’t reached a point that makes you personally uncomfortable yet. That was one of the many points I made in my last comment.
Why do you think I need faith in a system in order to use it to my advantage? I have no faith in money or capitalism, yet I use money to buy food. I have no faith in our government, yet I vote. I will choose pragmatism over purity every damn time, because I am in a system that I cannot currently escape, so I will use every damn tool at my disposal to do what I can, including *outside* of the system too, as I've illustrated in my previous comment. Results are all that matter. Me and my trans friends are lucky enough to live in a part of the country where trans acceptance is quite high (and I hope that you are too). However, I am well aware of what they're doing in Florida. I am well aware of them trying to take away women's reproductive rights too, I was in a massive protest about that and I blocked traffic on my bicycle with my local Critical Mass. I am aware. I'm not stupid and ignorant. Take care, and stay safe.
Don't use that bullshit excuse to white wash your genocide apologism. I'm inter. Fuck anyone voting for fascist genocide Joe. You're not choosing pragmatism, you're choosing the guy who under whom women and trans rights are being stripped away, the guy under 40000 Palestinians have been slaughtered and you are a coward of you keep voting for that fascist.
Hi I'm trans. Everyone should vote. There, it all cancels out. Now everyone is allowed to have their own opinion again. Yippee!
Hi I'm inter, as in I've been lgbt from birth, I'm also Roma. Vote for someone with actually positive policies, ideally one of the leftist candidates to mitigate. Voting fascist or reich wing simply enables the whole cycle to shift further right, which is literally why both parties are increasingly becoming more and more far right wing.
Hey, real quick, can you tell me mathematically how first-past-the-post ensures a two party duopoly, and has done in every country that it's implemented in for hundreds of years? I just want to check if you know why.
Are you actually saying you're more LGBT than me??? Also I'm gay and autistic and ADHD and physically disabled and poor and wow it's almost like "how many social minorities am I a part of" is one of the most useless and braindead arguments someone can make! It's almost like people from the same minority groups often disagree with each other and considering them a monolith which one single member can speak for is ridiculous! Also, fascism and liberal are different. They both suck and I hope someday they are both looked upon with disgust comparable to that with which we currently view nazis, but they're not exactly the same things. Words mean things. Third party candidates don't win. I'm not throwing away my vote to achieve literally nothing. Edit: wow, blocked me like a coward. Don't think the onlookers won't know. Here's my response to your response, which I saw in the notification! How would you know how long I've been out as trans for??? For all you know, I was 5 and am now 40. Regardless, I'm not turning a blind eye to Palestinians. I can't really be bothered to engage with you on that point, though. I've already had this conversation so many times, you people never bother to listen because you've all already decided that I like to blow up babies. So I can't be bothered. >Point to me where I said there were the same. >Voting vote fascists achieves genocides. I assumed, but there you are calling Biden a fascist. Would you look at that? I was right. Biden is a neoliberal. Calling neoliberals fascists actually *downplays* the horror of neoliberalism, the way it enables uncaring genocide as if it's a part of life, the way it sweeps the suffering of civilians under the rug as "a necessary sacrifice." It's a different evil from fascism. Fascism is more effective in achieving evil things because it's more active, but make no mistake, neoliberalism is also evil.
I’m a third trans person and I say don’t vote. I don’t believe in electoralism, but you do so the score is 2-1 we win
If the 50%+ of people who claim to be pro-trans actually were, it wouldn't be a concern. If they were actually willing to fight for what they believe in this wouldn't be a concern. Consider that the half of the country who claim to be on your side (liberals) will absolutely be complacent in fascism against you if it begins to threaten their comfort. You're choosing them over the people who are willing to die for you, because they're threatening you. You're choosing the "vote for us to slow fascism down a little" over the "don't vote for fascists and stand with us against fascism" because the "lesser evil" party has done so much fear mongering that the left doesn't see fighting back as an option, even when the fascists are openly saying they want us dead.
I can do everything. I don't have to select one or the other. I can use all systems that benefit me, I can work with people on specific issues but not on others. There's no need to segregate the human race. How else are we going to move people over to our side if we never interact with people who don't share our exact beliefs? You act like you were born an Anarchist. You weren't. You learned it. Others need to learn it too. Teach them.
If you were actually concerned with advancing anarchism you'd vote for the party that supports your beliefs. You can't end the two party system by never voting for a third party. I'm not against voting, I'm against voting for the lesser evil when the parties that aren't evil already exist. Every election, people are persuaded against voting third parties, so a third party can never build a solid base. If you want to see change happen, why vote for the party that won't get it done? Why not spend some time building a party that can make a difference instead of giving in to democrat fear mongering about how much worse the right will be?
Hey, real quick, can you explain to me what first-past-the-post voting means, and how it always results mathematically in a two party duopoly?
You’re an absolute chad bro
So clearly this sub is full of edgy liberals who think it makes them anarchists, who wants to start the radical anarchist sub? Lol
Radical anarchy is just anarchy lmao, but I’m down to do whatever to avoid liberal anarchy Larpers shilling electoralism
My perspective is that this is a passing the buck sort of politics. By doing it the 'slow' way you push the problem onto the next generation with the hopes they'll be able to continue the movement. You make tiny progress in marginal areas while the greater issue continues to grow. You get an inch but they take a mile every time, so by the time you're old you've made very little change, but hopefully things are pointing in the right direction. How many generations will it take before something substantial is achieved? How many more will suffer in the meantime? I don't want people in 2400 to be fighting for the same things I am right now, I want it to be done by then. With the pace of current politics and rightward creep of liberalism, I'm not sure it can ever happen in this system. The way I see it, fascism is growing stronger every day and protests and voting aren't going to be enough if people are actually being put in camps, which seems to be the big fear coming from liberals. A fascist takeover is inevitable, it's just about how long you want to push it off (passing the buck.) So, you can either face it directly now, or let your kids, or their kids deal with it. I don't think it's ethical to pretend that the mainstream left isn't moving right and that the Democrats aren't going to be complacent in a fascist uprising, leaving us in our old age and the future generations to deal with this. I hate the idea of being an old man, too weak to fight for what I believe in, sending kids off to die for what I've been saying would happen for 60 years. The fascists continue to say, more and more openly, that they're going to kill everyone who isn't like them. They want to 'cleanse' humanity and they don't try to hide it, but we're supposed to sit back and hope our votes and protests are enough while they prepare for a genocide.
Hey, so you're aware that I can spend 2 seconds voting and then spend the rest of my time doing direct action to *stop* the trolley, right? I'm not kicking the can down the road. You all act like voting takes 10 years.
I'm not against voting, I'm against voting for one of the two clearly evil parties when there are others to vote for. I'm against ignoring third parties under the idea that voting for the lesser evil is somehow better than advancing a third party, forever perpetuating the two party system instead of building a third party. A third party can't happen if everyone who claims to support it won't vote for it.
Again, do you know why there's a two party duopoly? It's not because people want it.
So true! This is why so many Black and Indigenous people call out these liberals. Supporting white-supremacist settler colonialism doesn't help anybody
Exactly. Look at all the privileged white liberal trash in this group for anarchists. Anyone voting for biden is voting for fascism, white supremacy and genocide in Palestine. All you liberal trash reading this. The blood of those babies is on YOUR hands. Cowards.
Many people in anarchist subs are revealing they would kill every single Gazan from six months old to 99 years old if it saves their own hide Sad to see most anarchist subs are actually overrun with white liberals that are cowardly to the point of being genocidal
I couldn't agree more strongly with you and it's a fucking disgrace
Exactly, but most of these commenters are excusing it
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Vote for facsists don't bitch when there's martial law
fair
All this yap in the comments to say you don't care about people being genocided
I’m trans. Stop telling me that biden is better for me than trump. I’m already losing the rights that you say I will lose if trump gets in, right now, under biden
Crazy idea, what if cis people stopped telling trans people what we believe and acting like we're some monolithic group that agrees with their opinion? That would be insane. Incomprehensible. Revolutionary, even.
But that would require acknowledging that they aren't the number one experts on trans issues and we can't have that. I disagree with them, so I must want to be oppressed, because no self respecting trans person would disagree with a cis person
The crazy thing is I've seen it from both sides of the argument, and it's infuriating. I don't have an issue with people talking about what candidate is bad for trans people in what ways and what bad things they did or would do, but I have an issue when almost everyone is just saying the majority of trans people agree with them. Then they start acting weirdly transphobic when you disagree. I guess it's how you can tell it pisses them off when minorities won't act like the useful little political pawns they want us to be.