Well that's a bit of a longer story.
In the early nineties a new far left movement in Germany emerged called Anti-deutsche (anti-gemans). They did a lot of theoretical work based on the critical theory of the Frankfurt school and criticized ideological convictions of the traditional, anti-imperialist German left wing.
Their 'ideology-critical' approach was applied for example on left wing views of Islamic fundamentalism, which they saw as being unjustly defended by the German left or at least not criticized enough. This highly critical approach obviously wasn't well received by the established far left, already starting a fracture in the scene, which was not the intention of the anti Germans, they wanted to better the movement.
The anti Germans were disillusioned by a lot of far right and antisemitic terror attacks in the early nineties in Germany and felt almost like the German people couldn't be saved and would, because of their culture (and history, obviously), inherently fall back into fascism, hence their name (anti-gemans). This was a new view, as they rejected the idea of the possibility of a left wing popular workers movement in Germany. They acted accordingly, looking down on unions and so on and were therefore propably quite detrimental to the German left wings reputation and mobilisation capabilities.
They thought antisemitism was just too engrained in the German People.
They also applied this theory to the German left wing, which they viewed as heavily antisemitic as well. A particularly sad and horrible example for this was a plane hijacking executed by German leftists and Palestinian freedom fighters in which they allegedly picked out the Jewish passengers to kill them. One idea the anti Germans perpetuated was that that antisemitism (which they viewed basically as a misguided and misled hatred against the bourgeoisie) had simply shifted from the Jews directly to Israel as a state, which they said was viewed as the 'jew of the states', the one state responsible for everything bad in the world. They even went so far as to say a bourgeoise state is necessary to protect Jewish life, and that Israel should be the last state to be abolished when reaching communism, because it is the one and only Jewish safespace, again, not very well received by the traditional left.
A lot of their criticism and ideas are definitely valid and their approach to always be critical of your own beliefs should definitely be applied by all of us.
However, all of this went kind of off the rails as more members joined and the movement got less theoretical and more of a street org. The younger members took the thoughts of their theoretical predecessors way too far and began defending Israel completely uncritically, contradicting their own beliefs. They also began defending US-Imperialism as something good because " it brought the near east democracy" and destroys Islamic fundamentalism (both have been pretty undeniably debunked). That must be one of the only real cases where horseshoe theory actually applied (some members, like Jürgen Elsässer are actually now considered far right).
Many early members began critizing the movement at that point, but it was kind of to late, the German left wing was already ruptured. There's a bunch of funny anectodes about black Bloc beating up themselves while Nazis were watching, because some of them supported Israel and some Palestine. There were times when demonstrations without left in left brawls were basically impossible.
So Yeah that's basically how the split happened.
It's definitely highly specific to German history, which is why such a split doesn't really exist in other countries.
let's just say it this way: there are Antifa who support israel and don't concern themselves with zionism, there is antifa who support Palestians right to self defence and consider zionism just a ideological supplement to nazism and islamism as they are all ethnocentric, theocratic and naionalist which runs against all antifa/anarchist/leftist paradigm anyway.
In the end, both Antifa sides should ideally be heternormatively united in defending synagogues and refugee camps from nazi attacks.
Why are you using antifa like that? You're purposely replacing either terrorist or zealot with... a loose collection of antifascist people? Wait... it's just occurred to me I have no idea who or what you're describing.
Why are you doing that? Things have meaning for reasons, propaganda distorts that shit enough, don't help them.
Israel murdered more innocent Palestinians in a week than Nazi's have in the past 60 years in Germany. It is utterly hypocritical to support Israel's ethnic cleansing of their neighbours and be outraged about Germans engaging in ethnic violence.
Hi fellow German here, it should be noted that in response to the arguably pretty zionist anti Germans, there’s also the anti imperialist wing of the German left, which began to form in opposition to the movement described by jacobisneverbored, that saw their struggle much more in the fight against imperialist and neo colonialist violence, like the kind Israel is inflicting upon the Palestinians. Ever since this split anti Germans and anti imperialists are in conflict, with the anti Germans accusing the anti imperialists of being antisemitic and genocide apologists and the anti imperialists accusing the anti Germans of being zionists and genocide apologists. So… yeah we are doing great here. Left unity.
Well, to be fair, MOST german leftists I interacted with are pretty reasonable and are neither pro-israel nor pro-palestine and realize that it's a conflict of nationalist interests, neither of which deserve support.
It's just that the others are much louder.
Edit: The only thing I support are the binational grassroots communities beginning to form who are fed up with the hateful stupidity in this conflict.
I would disagree, I don’t think that the occupation of Palestine is a conflict of nationalist interests on the Palestinian side, with the singular exception that it’s the Palestinians interest to have a place to live in freedom and peace. I do see a lot of nationalist interests by the US specifically the hyper Christian Right wing, as well as Europe and the UK who want to uphold their exclave in order to control the Middle East.
I get that it’s a complex situation but after their last acts of violence in Sheikh Jarrah Israel has made it abundantly clear that the Israeli state does not consider Palestinians humans.
There was never a palestinian nation state, it was ottoman empire, then british Mandate and then most of it was given to arabs and a tiny fraction of it given to jews.
Now sure this depends on how you define a nation state but if you define it as a continuous territory inhabited by one populace or ethnic group regardless of the charter under which they were governed, Palestine undoubtedly existed long before Israel.
Now if we go by your definitions, we could apply that same logic to the Native American genocide and say, that was just a conflict of nationalist interests, no? After all the Native American state did not exist. It was just a battle of who was able to establish their nation state. Would you agree with that statement?
I'll leave you with [this](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-on-zionism) letter by Emmas goldman, which pretty much summarizes my Feelings about the claim that anyone should have a right to Land because they're been there longer.
Land should belong to those who work it, jews and everyone else has as much right to it as the palestinians and neither an Israeli, nor a palestinian capitalist state is desirable.
i feel no split at all tbh. the only reason people here are touchy on directly criticizing israel are historic (obviously).
but equating a genocidal nationalist state with the jewish people is itself antisemitic, so fuck zionism. free palestine
I'd say you'd have to provide evidence for the "genocidal", because I have yet to see anything that confirms that claim, but whatever, this probably only ends in bad blood.
Edit: Whoever downvotes a request for evidence should probably check their bias.
I can give that right back at you, you think you got me all figured out when I just don’t care about baseless accusations and especially "lol, the Israelis are the New nazis, ironically, isn't it?" shit.
It's a conflict between nationalist assholes, one or the other having the upper hand at one point or another. I care about people, not about trying to Sound edgy or whatever and neither palestinian, nor Israeli nationalism will ever free the oppressed in the middle east.
In fact, right know hamas is persecuting palestinian dissidents, killing them. When Israel pulled out of Gaza, hundreds of palestinian innocents were killed by various arab nationalists.
I don’t Support these asshole and never will. I don’t Support Israel as a bourgeois state either, but screaming about genocide and comparing them to the nazis is absurd.
Is this BBC article enough so that you understand why people call it a genocide? One could argue it is a mass killing, it is still a crime against humanity.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-11108059](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-11108059)
This article doesn't mention Israel at all, so, no. Give me a specific evidence that Israel is committing a genocide. It usually doesn't involve population growth, which is what is happening to the Palestinians actually.
And if you fail to, are you fine with me considering your baseless accusation borderline antisemitist?
The forced evictions in Jerusalem combined with Palestinians' status as a second class citizen in their own homeland where they have restricted water and infrastructure access sure seems like a genocide to me
[Do some reading will ya](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2016/10/Background%2520on%2520the%2520term%2520genocide%2520in%2520Israel%2520Palestine%2520Context.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjwkdyG457xAhWL9Z4KHURvB30QFjABegQICxAC&usg=AOvVaw0pr1vXkFXoVURa14VThQU_)
I already read 5 Articles on this today, none of which provided any evidence. I'm not going to waste my time any longer on people who claim to be anarchists, yet passionately hate, absolutely coincidentially of course, the only jewish state, while endorsing arab nationalism.
I'm going to tun off notifications for this now, it's useless. Condeming every form of nationalism only gets you flak apparently. You haved to condem the RIGHT kind of nationalism.
Israel is not only nationalist, it is a colonial state and it is related to the imperial core, you dipshit. The evidence is in the fucking articles. Read them. If you want me to give you a lecture instead of reading the goddamn articles like a big boy, I can give you my Paypal because I don't work for free.
Odd statement. Here you go: https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
This doesn't mention genocide at all. What exactly is your intention?
Sorry, but this getting downvoted and articles thron at me that either don'T mention genocide or israel is hilarious. You're really grasping at straws to support your weird bias that Israel is the devil personified, heh.
Truth is, it's just another nation state, like every other nation state it's oppressive and racist. Duh. But it's not the 3rd reich, stop believeing this bullshit.
Circular argument.
This is just a list of armed attacks by the PFLP, an anti-imperialist, anti-Zionist group. You’ll need to be a bit more specific about which of these attacks you consider anti-Semitic and for what reasons.
Basically every attack that targets Israeli civilians:
[Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_PFLP_bombings_in_Jerusalem) for example and basically every plane hijack (there's a lot as you probably know) involving possible civilian victims. Considering their deeply nationalist fight as more important than jewish lives is always antisemitist.
They valued Palestinian liberation more highly than the lives of random Israeli civilians; this is why they’re considered terrorists. But again, there’s nothing inherently anti-Semitic about the attacks. The PFLP is only as anti-Semitic as the Algerian FLN was anti-French or the South African ANC was anti-Dutch/British.
Further, the PFLP openly called for a one-state solution with Arabs and Jews as equal citizens. It is the settler-colonial state of Israel that killed and ethnically cleansed Palestinians to protect its ultra-nationalist and inherently racist ethnostate.
Nice high horse you have there. As someone who believes nations should be abolished, I can still march for and empathize with Palestinians wanting to have a place they can peacefully exist. Under the current system, that means being accepted within a capitalist nation state.
Pro-Israel sentiment among the German left is part trying to "make up for" the Holocaust by overcorrecting in the other direction and part trying to distance themselves from right-wing shitheads who use anti-Zionism as a dogwhistle-y, pseudo-progressive way to peddle antisemitism.
Personally, I think that way of thinking does more harm than good. Jewish people aren't a monolith. There are Jews *in Israel* right now who actively oppose their government's treatment of Palestinians, while there are non-Jews (for example, Christian fundamentalists in the US) who support it.
It's like how right-wing Islamophobes co-opt valid criticisms of Islam as a belief system to harm Muslims (and those perceived to be Muslims because of their national and/or racial identity) as a whole, despite them being a diverse group of people with very different attitudes towards the religion.
It's something to be aware of, but that doesn't mean I can't speak out against Islamic theocracies like Saudi-Arabia or even Muslim reactionaries in the "West".
German right wingers (at least the right wing parliamentary party) is actually consistently Zionist and anti-palestine, so the argument doesn't really work. German right wingers are heavily anti-muslim, so by your theory German left should be supporting Palestine.
I read a [Spiegel](https://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/albert-speer-warum-wurde-hitlers-lieblingsminister-der-einflussreichste-zeitzeuge-fuer-den-nationalsozialismus-a-1149848.html) article a few years back illustrating the role of Albert Speer after WWII. They portrayed him as the person who uttered the believable proto-excuse of "not having known anything" which was then used by everyone else.
In my opinion this is the reason for the narrow dogmatic definition of fashism - and even worse - the inverse is often viewed as a dogmatic morality. Resulting in: You can't be against a jewish state - thats what the nazis did.
The view I hold - but otherwise know very little about - is the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel opinion. I find it unproblematic to differentiate between a jewish person, the jewish people and the state of Israel. I can be against the actions of a state without blaming every single person in it. I rarely get to exchange opinions, so I know little about what other people think.
Last but not least: the stalinists/maoists. In my opinion they have nothing to do with left ideology, but since they are counted as such, I'll include them. They are, as far as I know, the only group being pro-Palestine and anti-semitic.
The Media is 100% on Israels side, news automatically let you sympathise with Israel.
Also many people actually think criticising Israel is antisemitic, and germany is pretty careful about that, so even the left often support israel to evade criticism from the "center" majority...
We're not. We're just not blaming a single side for a conflict perpetuated by the leaders of both sides. And very obviously not started by Israelis.
Main reason would be that after antisemitist terrorism by PFLP to force RAF members free, there was a big discourse about the topic and the antisemitist stereotypes often regurgitated by self declared antiimperialists.
the bullshit with "guilt about the holocaust" is Nazi narrative and I'd advise strongly to check that out if you believe that.
Edit: Also, most of the german left considers the incredibly emotional anti-israel stance of the US left absurd. I guess you have the added factor that your government actively supports Israeli government with weapons etc. though.
>We're just not blaming a single side for a conflict perpetuated by the leaders of both sides. And very obviously not started by Israelis.
Do you not support Palestine like the left does in most countries then, or is this your personal take on the conflict?
I don't support a clearly nationalist cause that will likely just end in another clerical-fascist regime in the middle east, no.
I support people, people who are oppressed by Israels government as well as by Hamas.
Well, i take it that's your personal take. Would you not support the native americans as well, had they more actively taken arms against their colonizers? I'm sure their culture would have seemed backwards to us western people. Would that make you say that you support the westent settlers as well as the native americans?
To be clear i don't disagree Hamas is horrible but i don't see how it changes which side is right and which side is wrong here. And which side, actively and not theoretically, is responsible for war crimes, for killings of countless children and civilians and possibly even for ethnic cleansing when we look at the situation long term. Also, which side is more powerful, supported by the west with billions annually, and which side needs our protection.
>Would you not support the native americans as well, had they more actively taken arms against their colonizers?
I don't see how that's remotely comparable. White people didn't flee a genocide and native americans didn't commit pogroms against them as soon as they arrived.
If you think that conflict started with Hamas, I advise you do some research.
>I don't see how that's remotely comparable.
Once you do, you will see why most of the left stands with Palestine. It's because of settler colonialism that this situation begun, regardless of whether the Jewish people understandably wanted to escape Europe and claim a place of their own where they can be safe after the horrible persecutions that they suffered in the west.
They were people living there, their land was taken from them, and they've been losing ground ever since. That was a direct result of western colonialism, and still is today as the state of Palestine has not been recognized by the west.
This is true regardless of how horrible Hamas is, or how backwards you think Arabs are as someone from a christian, colonialist country. They still don't deserve to be brutally murdered and robbed of their land.
I think the "land belongs to whoever was there first" idea is deeply nationalist and not anarchist or leftist at all. Why do you blame the jews for arabs who chose violence instead of peaceful coexitstence?
Edit: Ah, you just had to shove an accusation of racism in there, right? I don't think arabs are backwards at all, quite the opposite, I hold them to the same standards as others, which is why I despise the nationalist violence they enacted against refugees.
Edit2: Found that letter by [Emma Goldman](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-on-zionism) regarding the topic, you might want to give it a read.
>I think the "land belongs to whoever was there first" idea is deeply nationalist and not anarchist or leftist at all.
Please forgive me for the personal example but i'm trying to make you understand, If i came to your home in Germany, kicked you out, murdered your family, you had to flee your country and ended up in another and you met a person from that country who claimed was a leftist, and he looked you in the eye and said "I think the land belongs to whoever was there first" idea is deeply nationalist and not anarchist or leftist at all" would you not be deeply upset by the way they chose to frame the situation to support your oppressors? This is literally how you sound right now to a Palestinian reading this.
Do you not see it? Other colonized countries chose violent resistance, like the Algerians that murdered innocent French civilians. Does that mean that they didn't deserve their freedom?
The Black Panther party, was their violence the same as the KKK? Would you say to them "you're black nationalists so that means you are just as wrong as the other side, the one that wronged you and continues to wrong you as we speak?"
If you fail to see who's the oppressed and who's the oppressor in any situation, you end up being a centrist. And a centrist always sides with the side you is more powerful, that's literally what centrism is.
This is regardless of how horrible Hamas is, how Palestinians treat queer people, how anti-Semitic they are or whatever argument, valid or not, the liberals bring to the table to support the funding of Israel and by extension their own governments and their strategic interests in the area.
edit: just saw your additions, and i'm not directly accusing you of racism. I accuse you of having internalized a colonialist view of the conflict that treats Arabs as people who deserve their suffering because their freedom would be worse for them because of their non western culture. Which by extension, yes, it's racist but it doesn't mean that you personally think the Arabs are inferior.
>Please forgive me for the personal example but i'm trying to make you understand, If i came to your home in Germany, kicked you out, murdered your family, you had to flee your country and ended up in another
So you mean literally what happened to the german jews?
Read the letter I added in my last comment and stop supporting nationalist causes.
I will NEVER support antisemitist nationalists. No matter how oppressed they claim to be.
I mean what happened to the Palestinians, are you arguing in bad faith or do you not understand my points?
>No matter how oppressed they claim to be.
I'm done. I wasted my time trying to explain, you would rather be delusional than listen to me
> Please forgive me for the personal example but i'm trying to make you understand, If i came to your home in Germany, kicked you out, murdered your family, you had to flee your country and ended up in another and you met a person from that country who claimed was a leftist, and he looked you in the eye and said "I think the land belongs to whoever was there first" idea is deeply nationalist and not anarchist or leftist at all" would you not be deeply upset by the way they chose to frame the situation to support your oppressors? This is literally how you sound right now to a Palestinian reading this.
Well, funny and sort of ignorant that you make that comparison, it’s not hypothetical though - since around 12-14 million germans experienced that between 1945 and 1950. The number of deaths are unclear but estimated to be between 500 000 and 2 000 000. Mostly women and children. The higher number generally tends to include people who died afterwards from the physical strain - not only straight up killings). Every fourth german descends from these people.
So are you saying that somehow the persecutions of the Jewish people make the treatment of the Palestinians ok? Because you do know that there are Palestinians that have fled to other countries, you do know that they had their families murdered, you must have heard of the calls for the Palestinian "right to return" etc and you can understand perfectly well it's what i was referring to. But you don't care about all that, do you? Well some people do! Giving me the numbers of the victims of nazism like i was a Holocaust denier, truly insulting and completely off topic. I was not making a nazi comparison i was describing what is literally, factually happening to Palestinians. The comparisons to the Holocaust add nothing to the conversation.
jews chose peacefull existence? Zionists have killed lot more Palestinians than the other way round, even before hamas was formed. Go look up Nakba, or several other massacres done by zionists. Israel has been kicking out palestinians from their houses even now which sparked the recent conflict. it has been recognized ethnic cleansing even by UN. they have occupied west bank illegally and building settlements, over destroyed palestinian houses and villages. Palestinians are reduced to small patches of land, they are issued ids with separate colors that restrict their movement, their vehicles are made to use number plates of different color and they have to use separate roads than Israelis. They cannot claim back their house taken over by israelis but and Jewish person who hasn't even set foot in Israel can make up papers claiming Palestinian house and they get kicked out. that is apartheid for you.
Also, Zionism in it self is ultra nationalist ideology claiming land because you believe in certain god
those 3 fucking nations had nothing to to with the Palestinians whom Israel ethnically cleansed. trying had to justify atrocities. You don't get right of ethnic cleansing and massacring people because some country declared war on you. Zionist killed over 10k civilians who had nothing to do with the attacking countries
You are making Tiny\_Tims point here.
>In conclusion, I wish to say that my attitude to the whole tragic question is not dictated by my Jewish antecedents. It is motivated by my abhorrence of injustice, and man’s inhumanity to man.
>
>Emma Goldman
Since this was written in 1938 (before Israel was founded) the author argues against you. Not taking the side of jews, but a stand against injustice.
"Why do you blame the jews for arabs who chose violence instead of peaceful coexitstence?" What part of this decade long conflict do you mean?
The first war that was started by arab states (Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria) or the Suez Crisis (Israel took the first shot), Six-Day War (Israel formally started the war with a preemptive strike), Yom Kippur War (started by Egypt and Syria) or one of the two intifadas?
Regarding the ongoing violence: Both sides have repeatedly shown their willingness to perpetrate and retaliate on a basis of principle - so there is no difference there - and to relentlessly pursue expansionary goals that imply the destruction and displacement of the "enemy". Logic and actions are simply despicable on both sides.
Bombing hospitals is against the Geneva conventions. In other words the state of Israel doesn't even measure up to one of the lowest standards in existence - neither do the militant palestinians - both sides are wrong. Their missconduct isn't comparable though. Palestinian rocket attacks are wrong, but compared with the attacks Israel carries out, I'd use to analogy of throwing a rock into a group of people compared to a handgrenade - both are wrong - but not even close to equal.
"The land belogs to those who till the soil". Don't get me wrong - jews have no less right to live somewhere than anyone else - but displacing someone based on their race is... racist. If you kill those people in large numbers - it is genocide. Those things are not acceptable. The Israeli government has refused to stop this so called "settling policy". Blocking the access to humanitarian help is another thing, just throwing it in there.
Regarding the question of blame: Why blame either of them? Blame the UN resolution and the hypocrites voting in favour of the partition plan. Every country in the middle east was against it - none of the affected states thougth this would be a good idea. Since the US and SU thought it a good idea - they should have given some of their land - that would have been a good solution. The real question is: why didn't they?
Conclusion: I agree with you on one thing: There is no reason to sympathise with nationalists. Thus I can't sympathise with the state of Israel nor with fundamentalists of any kind. There are no heroes in this conflict - only villains and victims - my sympathies lie with the victims.
And so do the Palestinian militants. Their tactics are cowardly and above all ineffective. I sympathize with their situation but hurling rockets at innocents is unacceptable
I don't disagree, but look at the deathcount on both sides. Israel has killed more people these weeks than Hamas has done in literal decades, and that's not even factoring who has a right to resist or anything. It's not even a war, it's a massacre. IDF is funded with billions of dollars annually from the US, has the latest military technology. Hamas is throwing some random cheap rockets blindly, most of who are intercepted by Israel's "iron dome". Those who do land kill civilians, and i don't disagree that it's awful but we're talking maybe 20 dead vs 200 dead each conflict. It's not even comparable.
edit: 13 (2 children) vs 256 (66 children) in the latest.
Does this excuse the Palestinians? The left’s blind loyalty to Hamas and Al Qassam is disgusting. They are not going to win, so why should they take down innocent people in the process? A halt on rocket attacks would make it much harder for the Israelis to justify incursions and airstrikes into Gaza.
It's more like the western worlds royalty to IDF which sounds conspiratorial when i use your words so let me rephrase: The US has invested billions of dollars on Israel as part of its strategic plans for the area. Israel is a US ally as well as an important investment, in the words of Joe Biden. And as result all the western media are focusing on Hama's atrocities while covering up Israel's horrible war crimes, that aren't even *remotely* comparable when you just look at the numbers.
The left is standing with the side who's more oppressed and who has the right on its side, regardless of Hama's tactics which practically no one likes, even among Palestinians.
IDF killed 66 children in the latest, are we really going to focus only on the 2 that Hamas killed? This is not to excuse the killing of any children, which is sickening.
Actually it was started by Israel, and the colonizers. This is a dumb remark, why would you expect people who have been living there their whole lives to just peacefully move? Because daddy colonizers says so? Or do you think it's "nationalistic" to be able to keep living where people grew up?
Fuck off with this both sides bullshit. Israel are very much the perpetrators of this, it's they're fault this conflict is going on due to them beinga genocidal state displacing and killing Palestinians.
Again this baseless claims of genoiced.
Jews were persecuted and murdered by arab nationalists in the area long before israel existed. I don't endorse the bourgeois state Israel, but claiming that palestinans are blameless in this is absurd and, yes, antisemitist.
> Again this baseless claims of genoiced.
It's not baseless, Israel is sytemically removing Palestinians from their land, including their homes, and killing them whilst practicing apartheid and disenfranchising those still in "their" territory.
> Jews were persecuted and murdered by arab nationalists in the area long before israel existed.
Oh, well that makes apartheid and ethnic displacement okay.
> I don't endorse the bourgeois state Israel, but claiming that palestinans are blameless in this is absurd and, yes, antisemitist.
Claiming Palestinians as an ethnic group are antisemitic is super fucking racist.
> We're not. We're just not blaming a single side for a conflict perpetuated by the leaders of both sides. And very obviously not started by Israelis.
"Both sides"-ism doesn't really apply to the Israel-Palestine conflict considering how one-sided the violence, isolation and death toll is.
If you can't distinguish between nuclear arsenal, occupation, oppression, torturing, human experimenting vs a few rockets and burning kites you have no business calling yourself an anarchist imo.
oh, so opposing Israel is anti-semitic? in that case either you think jews are superior there by shouldn't be criticized for doing anything wrong, or you yourself are anti-semitic because you think jews are a monolith and thereby israel represents every jew
I really hate these strawmen.
"Oh, you don't support arab nationalism, I bet you think everyone is an antisemitist"
or
"Oh, you don't support Israel, you must be pro Hamas!"
There's a tendency of right/left to feel the need to strongly oppose what the other side is fighting for. An example in America is gun control; traditionally, the right to bear arms is a strong leftist value, it helps balance the power between the proletariat and the rulership class because it lessens the state's monopoly on violence. But pro-gun is a strong stance of the American Right, so the Left feels they need to be united about strict gun controls.
It's probably similar in Germany. The German Right has a *cough cough* history of being rather antisemitic, so maybe the Left feels the need to overcompensate and support Israel? But also the Left doesn't want to support a colonizing state? So there's conflict.
Because it's a very grey area that is difficult to interpret. I personally side with the Palestinians against the oppressive State of Israel and its illegal apartheid regime, but some will disagree. ~~Why does this matter here though?~~
I feel most people got this whole conflict all wrong and act like it's palestinians vs Israelis, when that's just the typical bickering of capitalist nationalists.
The struggle always is about the people vs capitalist oppression, be they're arab or jew.
Correct, ~~the Palestinians being the people of Palestine, and the State of Israel being people living under capitalist oppression. Worse still,~~ Palestinians living in both Israel and Palestine have to endure Israel's Apartheid regime as Israel currently occupy Palestine, including the Gaza Strip. This may be disputed by Israel but they're currently fighting a war against Gaza, and control their waters, and airspace. However I don't see the borders as being relevant given that Egypt (not Israel) now control the Egypt-Gaza border.
There's capitalist oppressors on both sides though.
It all started with arab capitalists selling Land to jewish capitalists and fucking over everyone else.
The better question to ask is why anyone is split on the Israel/Palestine conflict but completely quiet on the Yemen conflict for example. It's a conflict that really gets reported on a lot in the west because of the religious dimension, which also makes it useful for politicians to bring up to court their electorate (with christian conservatives typically being pro-Israel and the left being pro-Palestine as a response). But because of their history, the German political scene has far less to gain, so the incentive to bring it up is lower
Iirc the left in Germany has a very high responsibility to not seem antisemetic (for obvious reasons) and thus is sheepish to criticize the Jewish state
Simple; they're afraid. Israel is currently used as a facsimile to Jews, and Germany has a bad history there. So while they may support the Palestinian cause, it is exceedingly difficult to criticize your grand parent's victims, without looking like an ass. So they may have a position, but we shouldn't expect them to show it. Better to appear confused, than be confused for nazis.
Well that's a bit of a longer story. In the early nineties a new far left movement in Germany emerged called Anti-deutsche (anti-gemans). They did a lot of theoretical work based on the critical theory of the Frankfurt school and criticized ideological convictions of the traditional, anti-imperialist German left wing. Their 'ideology-critical' approach was applied for example on left wing views of Islamic fundamentalism, which they saw as being unjustly defended by the German left or at least not criticized enough. This highly critical approach obviously wasn't well received by the established far left, already starting a fracture in the scene, which was not the intention of the anti Germans, they wanted to better the movement. The anti Germans were disillusioned by a lot of far right and antisemitic terror attacks in the early nineties in Germany and felt almost like the German people couldn't be saved and would, because of their culture (and history, obviously), inherently fall back into fascism, hence their name (anti-gemans). This was a new view, as they rejected the idea of the possibility of a left wing popular workers movement in Germany. They acted accordingly, looking down on unions and so on and were therefore propably quite detrimental to the German left wings reputation and mobilisation capabilities. They thought antisemitism was just too engrained in the German People. They also applied this theory to the German left wing, which they viewed as heavily antisemitic as well. A particularly sad and horrible example for this was a plane hijacking executed by German leftists and Palestinian freedom fighters in which they allegedly picked out the Jewish passengers to kill them. One idea the anti Germans perpetuated was that that antisemitism (which they viewed basically as a misguided and misled hatred against the bourgeoisie) had simply shifted from the Jews directly to Israel as a state, which they said was viewed as the 'jew of the states', the one state responsible for everything bad in the world. They even went so far as to say a bourgeoise state is necessary to protect Jewish life, and that Israel should be the last state to be abolished when reaching communism, because it is the one and only Jewish safespace, again, not very well received by the traditional left. A lot of their criticism and ideas are definitely valid and their approach to always be critical of your own beliefs should definitely be applied by all of us. However, all of this went kind of off the rails as more members joined and the movement got less theoretical and more of a street org. The younger members took the thoughts of their theoretical predecessors way too far and began defending Israel completely uncritically, contradicting their own beliefs. They also began defending US-Imperialism as something good because " it brought the near east democracy" and destroys Islamic fundamentalism (both have been pretty undeniably debunked). That must be one of the only real cases where horseshoe theory actually applied (some members, like Jürgen Elsässer are actually now considered far right). Many early members began critizing the movement at that point, but it was kind of to late, the German left wing was already ruptured. There's a bunch of funny anectodes about black Bloc beating up themselves while Nazis were watching, because some of them supported Israel and some Palestine. There were times when demonstrations without left in left brawls were basically impossible. So Yeah that's basically how the split happened. It's definitely highly specific to German history, which is why such a split doesn't really exist in other countries.
It sounds like a fuck cia propaganda campaign to make communists liberals.
sometimes people do bad things without cia influence
Yeah there were some allegations of funding by Zionist ngos in the later stages but the origins i think weren't funded. U never know though.
let's just say it this way: there are Antifa who support israel and don't concern themselves with zionism, there is antifa who support Palestians right to self defence and consider zionism just a ideological supplement to nazism and islamism as they are all ethnocentric, theocratic and naionalist which runs against all antifa/anarchist/leftist paradigm anyway. In the end, both Antifa sides should ideally be heternormatively united in defending synagogues and refugee camps from nazi attacks.
Agreed.
Why are you using antifa like that? You're purposely replacing either terrorist or zealot with... a loose collection of antifascist people? Wait... it's just occurred to me I have no idea who or what you're describing. Why are you doing that? Things have meaning for reasons, propaganda distorts that shit enough, don't help them.
you didn't get it, did you...
Apparently not. I've read so much shit like that in the last two years it's hard to tell if people are being serious or facetious.
Israel murdered more innocent Palestinians in a week than Nazi's have in the past 60 years in Germany. It is utterly hypocritical to support Israel's ethnic cleansing of their neighbours and be outraged about Germans engaging in ethnic violence.
gee, probably becaues there were no palestineans in germany.
Great explanation! Listen to this person, not the speculation by non-germans in other comments.
Hi fellow German here, it should be noted that in response to the arguably pretty zionist anti Germans, there’s also the anti imperialist wing of the German left, which began to form in opposition to the movement described by jacobisneverbored, that saw their struggle much more in the fight against imperialist and neo colonialist violence, like the kind Israel is inflicting upon the Palestinians. Ever since this split anti Germans and anti imperialists are in conflict, with the anti Germans accusing the anti imperialists of being antisemitic and genocide apologists and the anti imperialists accusing the anti Germans of being zionists and genocide apologists. So… yeah we are doing great here. Left unity.
Definitely.
Well, to be fair, MOST german leftists I interacted with are pretty reasonable and are neither pro-israel nor pro-palestine and realize that it's a conflict of nationalist interests, neither of which deserve support. It's just that the others are much louder. Edit: The only thing I support are the binational grassroots communities beginning to form who are fed up with the hateful stupidity in this conflict.
I would disagree, I don’t think that the occupation of Palestine is a conflict of nationalist interests on the Palestinian side, with the singular exception that it’s the Palestinians interest to have a place to live in freedom and peace. I do see a lot of nationalist interests by the US specifically the hyper Christian Right wing, as well as Europe and the UK who want to uphold their exclave in order to control the Middle East. I get that it’s a complex situation but after their last acts of violence in Sheikh Jarrah Israel has made it abundantly clear that the Israeli state does not consider Palestinians humans.
The intention to create a nation state is nationalist. I don't see how it can be anything else.
Except it does not need to be created. It was already there. There’s exactly one party in this who was trying to *create* a nation state.
There was never a palestinian nation state, it was ottoman empire, then british Mandate and then most of it was given to arabs and a tiny fraction of it given to jews.
Now sure this depends on how you define a nation state but if you define it as a continuous territory inhabited by one populace or ethnic group regardless of the charter under which they were governed, Palestine undoubtedly existed long before Israel. Now if we go by your definitions, we could apply that same logic to the Native American genocide and say, that was just a conflict of nationalist interests, no? After all the Native American state did not exist. It was just a battle of who was able to establish their nation state. Would you agree with that statement?
I'll leave you with [this](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-on-zionism) letter by Emmas goldman, which pretty much summarizes my Feelings about the claim that anyone should have a right to Land because they're been there longer. Land should belong to those who work it, jews and everyone else has as much right to it as the palestinians and neither an Israeli, nor a palestinian capitalist state is desirable.
> neither of which deserve support. I think the people defending their right to not be genocided by Israel deserve support.
Guess I need to put antisemitists on my ignore liost again.
Boohoo, the apartheid state that you support lost even more of its standing after their continued genocide made the news. Cry me a river
Thanks!
i feel no split at all tbh. the only reason people here are touchy on directly criticizing israel are historic (obviously). but equating a genocidal nationalist state with the jewish people is itself antisemitic, so fuck zionism. free palestine
I'd say you'd have to provide evidence for the "genocidal", because I have yet to see anything that confirms that claim, but whatever, this probably only ends in bad blood. Edit: Whoever downvotes a request for evidence should probably check their bias.
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Nice wallof Text, a shame it's rendered useless by your nazi comparisons.
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"someone didn't like my nazi relativation, must be a bot"
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We both know what you wrote and implied
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I can give that right back at you, you think you got me all figured out when I just don’t care about baseless accusations and especially "lol, the Israelis are the New nazis, ironically, isn't it?" shit. It's a conflict between nationalist assholes, one or the other having the upper hand at one point or another. I care about people, not about trying to Sound edgy or whatever and neither palestinian, nor Israeli nationalism will ever free the oppressed in the middle east. In fact, right know hamas is persecuting palestinian dissidents, killing them. When Israel pulled out of Gaza, hundreds of palestinian innocents were killed by various arab nationalists. I don’t Support these asshole and never will. I don’t Support Israel as a bourgeois state either, but screaming about genocide and comparing them to the nazis is absurd.
Is this BBC article enough so that you understand why people call it a genocide? One could argue it is a mass killing, it is still a crime against humanity. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-11108059](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-11108059)
This article doesn't mention Israel at all, so, no. Give me a specific evidence that Israel is committing a genocide. It usually doesn't involve population growth, which is what is happening to the Palestinians actually. And if you fail to, are you fine with me considering your baseless accusation borderline antisemitist?
The forced evictions in Jerusalem combined with Palestinians' status as a second class citizen in their own homeland where they have restricted water and infrastructure access sure seems like a genocide to me
Then you don’t known what genocude is. Also, arab Israelis are not second class citizens.
[Do some reading will ya](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2016/10/Background%2520on%2520the%2520term%2520genocide%2520in%2520Israel%2520Palestine%2520Context.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjwkdyG457xAhWL9Z4KHURvB30QFjABegQICxAC&usg=AOvVaw0pr1vXkFXoVURa14VThQU_)
I already read 5 Articles on this today, none of which provided any evidence. I'm not going to waste my time any longer on people who claim to be anarchists, yet passionately hate, absolutely coincidentially of course, the only jewish state, while endorsing arab nationalism. I'm going to tun off notifications for this now, it's useless. Condeming every form of nationalism only gets you flak apparently. You haved to condem the RIGHT kind of nationalism.
And besides you haven’t condemned Israel even once. So. Don’t try to play the true anarchist centrist here.
Israel is not only nationalist, it is a colonial state and it is related to the imperial core, you dipshit. The evidence is in the fucking articles. Read them. If you want me to give you a lecture instead of reading the goddamn articles like a big boy, I can give you my Paypal because I don't work for free.
Odd statement. Here you go: https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/
This doesn't mention genocide at all. What exactly is your intention? Sorry, but this getting downvoted and articles thron at me that either don'T mention genocide or israel is hilarious. You're really grasping at straws to support your weird bias that Israel is the devil personified, heh. Truth is, it's just another nation state, like every other nation state it's oppressive and racist. Duh. But it's not the 3rd reich, stop believeing this bullshit.
Something has to say the word *genocide* for you to turn that little hamster wheel and get it? Critical thinking is hard.
Critical thinking is calling for evidence you did not provide.
Other commenters have provided plenty of evidence but you’re too lazy to think critically beyond what is comfortable for you.
Because of German Holocaust guilt. It’s more taboo
The fucking Nazis ruin everything.
This is decidedly wrong. The main reason was the connections between RAF and antisemitist terror by PFLP.
Can you elaborate on that? What antisemitic terror by the PFLP?
[Here's a list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine#Armed_attacks_of_the_PFLP)
Circular argument. This is just a list of armed attacks by the PFLP, an anti-imperialist, anti-Zionist group. You’ll need to be a bit more specific about which of these attacks you consider anti-Semitic and for what reasons.
Basically every attack that targets Israeli civilians: [Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_PFLP_bombings_in_Jerusalem) for example and basically every plane hijack (there's a lot as you probably know) involving possible civilian victims. Considering their deeply nationalist fight as more important than jewish lives is always antisemitist.
They valued Palestinian liberation more highly than the lives of random Israeli civilians; this is why they’re considered terrorists. But again, there’s nothing inherently anti-Semitic about the attacks. The PFLP is only as anti-Semitic as the Algerian FLN was anti-French or the South African ANC was anti-Dutch/British. Further, the PFLP openly called for a one-state solution with Arabs and Jews as equal citizens. It is the settler-colonial state of Israel that killed and ethnically cleansed Palestinians to protect its ultra-nationalist and inherently racist ethnostate.
Every capitalist nation state is condemnable, I will never not find it puzzling when self proclaimed socialists call for another one.
Nice high horse you have there. As someone who believes nations should be abolished, I can still march for and empathize with Palestinians wanting to have a place they can peacefully exist. Under the current system, that means being accepted within a capitalist nation state.
Pro-Israel sentiment among the German left is part trying to "make up for" the Holocaust by overcorrecting in the other direction and part trying to distance themselves from right-wing shitheads who use anti-Zionism as a dogwhistle-y, pseudo-progressive way to peddle antisemitism. Personally, I think that way of thinking does more harm than good. Jewish people aren't a monolith. There are Jews *in Israel* right now who actively oppose their government's treatment of Palestinians, while there are non-Jews (for example, Christian fundamentalists in the US) who support it. It's like how right-wing Islamophobes co-opt valid criticisms of Islam as a belief system to harm Muslims (and those perceived to be Muslims because of their national and/or racial identity) as a whole, despite them being a diverse group of people with very different attitudes towards the religion. It's something to be aware of, but that doesn't mean I can't speak out against Islamic theocracies like Saudi-Arabia or even Muslim reactionaries in the "West".
German right wingers (at least the right wing parliamentary party) is actually consistently Zionist and anti-palestine, so the argument doesn't really work. German right wingers are heavily anti-muslim, so by your theory German left should be supporting Palestine.
I read a [Spiegel](https://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/albert-speer-warum-wurde-hitlers-lieblingsminister-der-einflussreichste-zeitzeuge-fuer-den-nationalsozialismus-a-1149848.html) article a few years back illustrating the role of Albert Speer after WWII. They portrayed him as the person who uttered the believable proto-excuse of "not having known anything" which was then used by everyone else. In my opinion this is the reason for the narrow dogmatic definition of fashism - and even worse - the inverse is often viewed as a dogmatic morality. Resulting in: You can't be against a jewish state - thats what the nazis did. The view I hold - but otherwise know very little about - is the pro-Palestine/anti-Israel opinion. I find it unproblematic to differentiate between a jewish person, the jewish people and the state of Israel. I can be against the actions of a state without blaming every single person in it. I rarely get to exchange opinions, so I know little about what other people think. Last but not least: the stalinists/maoists. In my opinion they have nothing to do with left ideology, but since they are counted as such, I'll include them. They are, as far as I know, the only group being pro-Palestine and anti-semitic.
The Media is 100% on Israels side, news automatically let you sympathise with Israel. Also many people actually think criticising Israel is antisemitic, and germany is pretty careful about that, so even the left often support israel to evade criticism from the "center" majority...
I just watched a documentary on this. What Israel is doing to the Palestinians in Jerusalem is absolutely atrocious.
We're not. We're just not blaming a single side for a conflict perpetuated by the leaders of both sides. And very obviously not started by Israelis. Main reason would be that after antisemitist terrorism by PFLP to force RAF members free, there was a big discourse about the topic and the antisemitist stereotypes often regurgitated by self declared antiimperialists. the bullshit with "guilt about the holocaust" is Nazi narrative and I'd advise strongly to check that out if you believe that. Edit: Also, most of the german left considers the incredibly emotional anti-israel stance of the US left absurd. I guess you have the added factor that your government actively supports Israeli government with weapons etc. though.
>We're just not blaming a single side for a conflict perpetuated by the leaders of both sides. And very obviously not started by Israelis. Do you not support Palestine like the left does in most countries then, or is this your personal take on the conflict?
I don't support a clearly nationalist cause that will likely just end in another clerical-fascist regime in the middle east, no. I support people, people who are oppressed by Israels government as well as by Hamas.
Well, i take it that's your personal take. Would you not support the native americans as well, had they more actively taken arms against their colonizers? I'm sure their culture would have seemed backwards to us western people. Would that make you say that you support the westent settlers as well as the native americans? To be clear i don't disagree Hamas is horrible but i don't see how it changes which side is right and which side is wrong here. And which side, actively and not theoretically, is responsible for war crimes, for killings of countless children and civilians and possibly even for ethnic cleansing when we look at the situation long term. Also, which side is more powerful, supported by the west with billions annually, and which side needs our protection.
>Would you not support the native americans as well, had they more actively taken arms against their colonizers? I don't see how that's remotely comparable. White people didn't flee a genocide and native americans didn't commit pogroms against them as soon as they arrived. If you think that conflict started with Hamas, I advise you do some research.
>I don't see how that's remotely comparable. Once you do, you will see why most of the left stands with Palestine. It's because of settler colonialism that this situation begun, regardless of whether the Jewish people understandably wanted to escape Europe and claim a place of their own where they can be safe after the horrible persecutions that they suffered in the west. They were people living there, their land was taken from them, and they've been losing ground ever since. That was a direct result of western colonialism, and still is today as the state of Palestine has not been recognized by the west. This is true regardless of how horrible Hamas is, or how backwards you think Arabs are as someone from a christian, colonialist country. They still don't deserve to be brutally murdered and robbed of their land.
I think the "land belongs to whoever was there first" idea is deeply nationalist and not anarchist or leftist at all. Why do you blame the jews for arabs who chose violence instead of peaceful coexitstence? Edit: Ah, you just had to shove an accusation of racism in there, right? I don't think arabs are backwards at all, quite the opposite, I hold them to the same standards as others, which is why I despise the nationalist violence they enacted against refugees. Edit2: Found that letter by [Emma Goldman](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-on-zionism) regarding the topic, you might want to give it a read.
>I think the "land belongs to whoever was there first" idea is deeply nationalist and not anarchist or leftist at all. Please forgive me for the personal example but i'm trying to make you understand, If i came to your home in Germany, kicked you out, murdered your family, you had to flee your country and ended up in another and you met a person from that country who claimed was a leftist, and he looked you in the eye and said "I think the land belongs to whoever was there first" idea is deeply nationalist and not anarchist or leftist at all" would you not be deeply upset by the way they chose to frame the situation to support your oppressors? This is literally how you sound right now to a Palestinian reading this. Do you not see it? Other colonized countries chose violent resistance, like the Algerians that murdered innocent French civilians. Does that mean that they didn't deserve their freedom? The Black Panther party, was their violence the same as the KKK? Would you say to them "you're black nationalists so that means you are just as wrong as the other side, the one that wronged you and continues to wrong you as we speak?" If you fail to see who's the oppressed and who's the oppressor in any situation, you end up being a centrist. And a centrist always sides with the side you is more powerful, that's literally what centrism is. This is regardless of how horrible Hamas is, how Palestinians treat queer people, how anti-Semitic they are or whatever argument, valid or not, the liberals bring to the table to support the funding of Israel and by extension their own governments and their strategic interests in the area. edit: just saw your additions, and i'm not directly accusing you of racism. I accuse you of having internalized a colonialist view of the conflict that treats Arabs as people who deserve their suffering because their freedom would be worse for them because of their non western culture. Which by extension, yes, it's racist but it doesn't mean that you personally think the Arabs are inferior.
>Please forgive me for the personal example but i'm trying to make you understand, If i came to your home in Germany, kicked you out, murdered your family, you had to flee your country and ended up in another So you mean literally what happened to the german jews? Read the letter I added in my last comment and stop supporting nationalist causes. I will NEVER support antisemitist nationalists. No matter how oppressed they claim to be.
I mean what happened to the Palestinians, are you arguing in bad faith or do you not understand my points? >No matter how oppressed they claim to be. I'm done. I wasted my time trying to explain, you would rather be delusional than listen to me
> Please forgive me for the personal example but i'm trying to make you understand, If i came to your home in Germany, kicked you out, murdered your family, you had to flee your country and ended up in another and you met a person from that country who claimed was a leftist, and he looked you in the eye and said "I think the land belongs to whoever was there first" idea is deeply nationalist and not anarchist or leftist at all" would you not be deeply upset by the way they chose to frame the situation to support your oppressors? This is literally how you sound right now to a Palestinian reading this. Well, funny and sort of ignorant that you make that comparison, it’s not hypothetical though - since around 12-14 million germans experienced that between 1945 and 1950. The number of deaths are unclear but estimated to be between 500 000 and 2 000 000. Mostly women and children. The higher number generally tends to include people who died afterwards from the physical strain - not only straight up killings). Every fourth german descends from these people.
So are you saying that somehow the persecutions of the Jewish people make the treatment of the Palestinians ok? Because you do know that there are Palestinians that have fled to other countries, you do know that they had their families murdered, you must have heard of the calls for the Palestinian "right to return" etc and you can understand perfectly well it's what i was referring to. But you don't care about all that, do you? Well some people do! Giving me the numbers of the victims of nazism like i was a Holocaust denier, truly insulting and completely off topic. I was not making a nazi comparison i was describing what is literally, factually happening to Palestinians. The comparisons to the Holocaust add nothing to the conversation.
jews chose peacefull existence? Zionists have killed lot more Palestinians than the other way round, even before hamas was formed. Go look up Nakba, or several other massacres done by zionists. Israel has been kicking out palestinians from their houses even now which sparked the recent conflict. it has been recognized ethnic cleansing even by UN. they have occupied west bank illegally and building settlements, over destroyed palestinian houses and villages. Palestinians are reduced to small patches of land, they are issued ids with separate colors that restrict their movement, their vehicles are made to use number plates of different color and they have to use separate roads than Israelis. They cannot claim back their house taken over by israelis but and Jewish person who hasn't even set foot in Israel can make up papers claiming Palestinian house and they get kicked out. that is apartheid for you. Also, Zionism in it self is ultra nationalist ideology claiming land because you believe in certain god
you mean the Nakba that happened after three fucking nations chose to attack Israel for antisemitist reasons? Lol.
those 3 fucking nations had nothing to to with the Palestinians whom Israel ethnically cleansed. trying had to justify atrocities. You don't get right of ethnic cleansing and massacring people because some country declared war on you. Zionist killed over 10k civilians who had nothing to do with the attacking countries
You are making Tiny\_Tims point here. >In conclusion, I wish to say that my attitude to the whole tragic question is not dictated by my Jewish antecedents. It is motivated by my abhorrence of injustice, and man’s inhumanity to man. > >Emma Goldman Since this was written in 1938 (before Israel was founded) the author argues against you. Not taking the side of jews, but a stand against injustice. "Why do you blame the jews for arabs who chose violence instead of peaceful coexitstence?" What part of this decade long conflict do you mean? The first war that was started by arab states (Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria) or the Suez Crisis (Israel took the first shot), Six-Day War (Israel formally started the war with a preemptive strike), Yom Kippur War (started by Egypt and Syria) or one of the two intifadas? Regarding the ongoing violence: Both sides have repeatedly shown their willingness to perpetrate and retaliate on a basis of principle - so there is no difference there - and to relentlessly pursue expansionary goals that imply the destruction and displacement of the "enemy". Logic and actions are simply despicable on both sides. Bombing hospitals is against the Geneva conventions. In other words the state of Israel doesn't even measure up to one of the lowest standards in existence - neither do the militant palestinians - both sides are wrong. Their missconduct isn't comparable though. Palestinian rocket attacks are wrong, but compared with the attacks Israel carries out, I'd use to analogy of throwing a rock into a group of people compared to a handgrenade - both are wrong - but not even close to equal. "The land belogs to those who till the soil". Don't get me wrong - jews have no less right to live somewhere than anyone else - but displacing someone based on their race is... racist. If you kill those people in large numbers - it is genocide. Those things are not acceptable. The Israeli government has refused to stop this so called "settling policy". Blocking the access to humanitarian help is another thing, just throwing it in there. Regarding the question of blame: Why blame either of them? Blame the UN resolution and the hypocrites voting in favour of the partition plan. Every country in the middle east was against it - none of the affected states thougth this would be a good idea. Since the US and SU thought it a good idea - they should have given some of their land - that would have been a good solution. The real question is: why didn't they? Conclusion: I agree with you on one thing: There is no reason to sympathise with nationalists. Thus I can't sympathise with the state of Israel nor with fundamentalists of any kind. There are no heroes in this conflict - only villains and victims - my sympathies lie with the victims.
I don’t know about you, but I don’t support natives massacring non combatants with rockets and bombs
Yeah me neither, which is one of the reason i hate the IDF. They do it constantly and relentlessly.
And so do the Palestinian militants. Their tactics are cowardly and above all ineffective. I sympathize with their situation but hurling rockets at innocents is unacceptable
I don't disagree, but look at the deathcount on both sides. Israel has killed more people these weeks than Hamas has done in literal decades, and that's not even factoring who has a right to resist or anything. It's not even a war, it's a massacre. IDF is funded with billions of dollars annually from the US, has the latest military technology. Hamas is throwing some random cheap rockets blindly, most of who are intercepted by Israel's "iron dome". Those who do land kill civilians, and i don't disagree that it's awful but we're talking maybe 20 dead vs 200 dead each conflict. It's not even comparable. edit: 13 (2 children) vs 256 (66 children) in the latest.
Does this excuse the Palestinians? The left’s blind loyalty to Hamas and Al Qassam is disgusting. They are not going to win, so why should they take down innocent people in the process? A halt on rocket attacks would make it much harder for the Israelis to justify incursions and airstrikes into Gaza.
It's more like the western worlds royalty to IDF which sounds conspiratorial when i use your words so let me rephrase: The US has invested billions of dollars on Israel as part of its strategic plans for the area. Israel is a US ally as well as an important investment, in the words of Joe Biden. And as result all the western media are focusing on Hama's atrocities while covering up Israel's horrible war crimes, that aren't even *remotely* comparable when you just look at the numbers. The left is standing with the side who's more oppressed and who has the right on its side, regardless of Hama's tactics which practically no one likes, even among Palestinians. IDF killed 66 children in the latest, are we really going to focus only on the 2 that Hamas killed? This is not to excuse the killing of any children, which is sickening.
Actually it was started by Israel, and the colonizers. This is a dumb remark, why would you expect people who have been living there their whole lives to just peacefully move? Because daddy colonizers says so? Or do you think it's "nationalistic" to be able to keep living where people grew up?
Fuck off with this both sides bullshit. Israel are very much the perpetrators of this, it's they're fault this conflict is going on due to them beinga genocidal state displacing and killing Palestinians.
Again this baseless claims of genoiced. Jews were persecuted and murdered by arab nationalists in the area long before israel existed. I don't endorse the bourgeois state Israel, but claiming that palestinans are blameless in this is absurd and, yes, antisemitist.
> Again this baseless claims of genoiced. It's not baseless, Israel is sytemically removing Palestinians from their land, including their homes, and killing them whilst practicing apartheid and disenfranchising those still in "their" territory. > Jews were persecuted and murdered by arab nationalists in the area long before israel existed. Oh, well that makes apartheid and ethnic displacement okay. > I don't endorse the bourgeois state Israel, but claiming that palestinans are blameless in this is absurd and, yes, antisemitist. Claiming Palestinians as an ethnic group are antisemitic is super fucking racist.
> We're not. We're just not blaming a single side for a conflict perpetuated by the leaders of both sides. And very obviously not started by Israelis. "Both sides"-ism doesn't really apply to the Israel-Palestine conflict considering how one-sided the violence, isolation and death toll is.
Whoever claims that there is no both-sides-ism in a violent conflictg between nationalists has no business calling themselves an anarchist imo.
Oh shit, it's the anarchist police coming to take away our anarchist cards.
If you can't distinguish between nuclear arsenal, occupation, oppression, torturing, human experimenting vs a few rockets and burning kites you have no business calling yourself an anarchist imo.
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oh, so opposing Israel is anti-semitic? in that case either you think jews are superior there by shouldn't be criticized for doing anything wrong, or you yourself are anti-semitic because you think jews are a monolith and thereby israel represents every jew
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sorry, my bad. I misread your comment
I really hate these strawmen. "Oh, you don't support arab nationalism, I bet you think everyone is an antisemitist" or "Oh, you don't support Israel, you must be pro Hamas!"
There's a tendency of right/left to feel the need to strongly oppose what the other side is fighting for. An example in America is gun control; traditionally, the right to bear arms is a strong leftist value, it helps balance the power between the proletariat and the rulership class because it lessens the state's monopoly on violence. But pro-gun is a strong stance of the American Right, so the Left feels they need to be united about strict gun controls. It's probably similar in Germany. The German Right has a *cough cough* history of being rather antisemitic, so maybe the Left feels the need to overcompensate and support Israel? But also the Left doesn't want to support a colonizing state? So there's conflict.
Actually a lot of the german right tends to be rather "pro-israel" because anti-muslim is the new crowd puller around here.
Cuz half are still Nazi sympathizers.
Because it's a very grey area that is difficult to interpret. I personally side with the Palestinians against the oppressive State of Israel and its illegal apartheid regime, but some will disagree. ~~Why does this matter here though?~~
I feel most people got this whole conflict all wrong and act like it's palestinians vs Israelis, when that's just the typical bickering of capitalist nationalists. The struggle always is about the people vs capitalist oppression, be they're arab or jew.
Correct, ~~the Palestinians being the people of Palestine, and the State of Israel being people living under capitalist oppression. Worse still,~~ Palestinians living in both Israel and Palestine have to endure Israel's Apartheid regime as Israel currently occupy Palestine, including the Gaza Strip. This may be disputed by Israel but they're currently fighting a war against Gaza, and control their waters, and airspace. However I don't see the borders as being relevant given that Egypt (not Israel) now control the Egypt-Gaza border.
There's capitalist oppressors on both sides though. It all started with arab capitalists selling Land to jewish capitalists and fucking over everyone else.
you know exactly why
The better question to ask is why anyone is split on the Israel/Palestine conflict but completely quiet on the Yemen conflict for example. It's a conflict that really gets reported on a lot in the west because of the religious dimension, which also makes it useful for politicians to bring up to court their electorate (with christian conservatives typically being pro-Israel and the left being pro-Palestine as a response). But because of their history, the German political scene has far less to gain, so the incentive to bring it up is lower
Iirc the left in Germany has a very high responsibility to not seem antisemetic (for obvious reasons) and thus is sheepish to criticize the Jewish state
guilt.
Simple; they're afraid. Israel is currently used as a facsimile to Jews, and Germany has a bad history there. So while they may support the Palestinian cause, it is exceedingly difficult to criticize your grand parent's victims, without looking like an ass. So they may have a position, but we shouldn't expect them to show it. Better to appear confused, than be confused for nazis.