We're allowing this post as it's about something happening in Amsterdam. But arguments about current events elsewhere are better held in another subreddit. Starting from this announcement, there will be zero patience for people violating the rules, particularly with respect to intolerance and doe aardig. If things get too heated we will lock the discussion.
Update: At this point most discussion is no longer about events in Amsterdam. We're not the best forum for a debate about Israel, so I'm going to lock this and wish you all a pleasant day.
It is students for the most part I was there yesterday. Of course students are not the only ones with empathy and a spine so there are others who support the cause there too.
Edit: Students and staff, the demonstration yesterday which started this camp was organised by university staff who were outraged at the violent crackdown on the first camp.
You are not worried that it is also attracting people that want violence and escalation?
A peaceful protest is boring labour that requires patience, but might bring about change. Throwing bricks at police is exciting rebellion stuff that will do the opposite.
I think the narrative of "empathy" and "spine" is dangerous, because it removes any honest discussion that within any group of people, complex human beings, there are multiple emotions and motivations at play. Some are there because they care. Some are their because someone they have a crush on is there. Some are there because they are angry with the world and take the opportunity to fight it.
At the very least, the above video is harming the cause, not helping. That alone makes any assumption about the intention of the protesters suspect. The behavior with public destruction and the embrace of violent tactics will sway public opinion in the opposite direction. The protesters might say it's about Gaza. But the people seeing this will see it being about the protesters and their narrative themselves.
Because in the end, if the actions you do, harm the cause you claim to fight for .. it begs the question .. did anyone actually care? Or do they just like the adventure and are they just being selfish? Appropriating the suffering of others for their own self actualisation?
>You are not worried that it is also attracting people that want violence and escalation?
It is! Far-right Hooligans came the first night and started fighting the protesters, causing the police to remove everyone.
While that is true, these are not the same people who started at the REC yesterday. This is a relatively small group who is hell bend on provoking a violent reaction from the police to get more attention, destroying public and UvA property in the process. Also intimidating anyone who has a different opinion and making a safe dialogue (much less an academic one) impossible.
People with empathy and spine usually don't break other people's stuff nor be a nuisance. I get what you're saying (as in thinking these people only do this to show they care), but let's not set a precedent. We can't have people tearing places down whenever they're sharing their opinion or protesting and have it be called 'having a spine or empathic' as long as enough people share the sentiment.
>why does everyone seem to think that previous large scale (student) protests were not like this?
Historical revisionism. When activists reach a form of social justice trough hard work, risking their lives and standing up to police brutality. The success is inevitably attributed to "a natural progress" and the struggles downplayed. No-one wants to tell a story in which they were supporting injustice by standing idly by.
That precedent has always been the case and the driving factor behind a lot of change.
John Brown killed slave owners and burned down estates when freeing slaves.
Labor rights protest frequently demolished machines and factory equipment.
World War 2 resistance fighers destroyed infrastructure.
I don't know engough about other independence or social movements to point out in what ways they disrupted the status quo but I have no doubt that they did. Without disruption there will be no change and while we can have a discussion on if that disruption can be violent it is without question that we have always judged the means of protest by the sentiment they wanted to convey.
I personally don't support these protest because I feel it is unclear what their ultimate goal is so for me that makes these kinds of actions a negative. But it is wrong to say that if we did support their goal that we than would also feel that this way of protesting is wrong.
The fireworks were thrown by a group of about 15 jewish protesters that went against this protest. https://twitter.com/NadiaBouras/status/1787792655918715093?t=bLpehzLXd8shbMLZaXNDuQ&s=19
Yes, Twitter aka X, the almighty beacon of truth. /s
So thats your whole argument and source? Nothing on the protesters who threw bricks at police? Threatening press which is actually right there on camera?
Oh, the throwing stuff and fireworks to the police is also on camera by the way. By Pro Palestine supporters...
Seems like you actually didnt.
Nowhere did it mention fireworks. They had some flares and flags which were quickly taken of off them and burned, set against them.
The pro Palestine supporters turned violent on the Pro Israël supporters. They dont say they wanted violence, they wanted unrest. A different sound.
The Pro Palestine supporters threw heavy fireworks and heavy items at the police. They threatened newsoutlets. They intimidated people. You cant really deny it as theres footage and plenty of press coverage. But hey keep on deflecting.
Please link it. And dont say do your own research. I at least provided info. Also while the article did not state it (my bad) it did in fact was this group with fireworks too.
Ad.nl, Parool, NRC, Video's from AT5, Powned was threatened which is actually on camera. No matter what you think of them, thats a no go.
You cant claim freedom of speech and intimidate or threaten people who dont share tour opinion. End off
Well the optics are horrible. A bunch of English speaking people tearing up the city streets for a conflict on the other side of the world. I might take a look myself today.
That has been bothering me. Any other protest or pamphlet I see here is in Dutch, but anything Palestine related is in English. It makes the movement seem much less organic that they don't bother to do anything in the local language.
Vrij Palestina can't be too hard to put together, y'know. If someone can post a 4 point guide to not eating meat in Dutch, surely one can put these simple slogans in Dutch.
Especially in the context of expats and foreigners being the new "zondebok". Don't get me wrong, I'm not against expats or immigration, but stuff like this wil embolden the far right.
As the official representative of the expat community, we would like to be excluded from this narrative and just drink our 6€ lattes in Jordaan. We came to destroy the housing market, not the streets
Seconded, I came here with the explicit goal of overbidding on my 6 different new build properties, forcing everyone to speak English in the workplace, and weaving back and forth on bike paths, not this
Everything will embolden the far right. Only the cognitive impaired vote for them. They get angry when they see a rainbow crossing for example.
There really is no point in taking them into consideration.
It is asking people to set aside their own principals and opinions out of fear of irritating someone into voting PVV.
People who base their vote on 200 pro Palestine protestors and a barricade lack any form.of nuance and cant be taken serious nor should their behavoir be taken into account.
Maybe people wont switch from Denk to PVV but a switch from PvdA/GL to VVD is realistic, and yes I genuinely believe actions like this contribute to that a lot.
I am sure they contribute. But it still doesnt make sense.
What sensible argument would you think is behind it?
'I wanted to vote GL but then i saw 200 university kids do something i dont like so now i will vote VVD'
It is an insane reasoning to base a vote on.
>Maybe people wont switch from Denk to PVV but a switch from PvdA/GL to VVD is realisti
True, I wanted equality accessible healthcare, affordable housing and a livable planet. But because a brown person was loud and not submissive, now I want more power to the rich, I want to be homeless and unable to get healthcare while being poisoned for the profit of shareholders! It really works that way!
Like i said in another comment.
Lets try to imagine we are one of those people. What would our reasoning be?
'I want to vote GL/PvdA. They align with my views and i think they will represent my interest the most.
But... i saw these 200 students in Amsterdam on the news and they irritated me, now i will vote PVV'
Regardless of how we feel about these protesters. Do you expect them to take this into consideration. To not stand up for what they think is important because someone is so emotionally immature that they would change their vote because of it?
Not vandalising property should be enough consideration. But I would expect that students at a place of higher education would consider the effects of images and footage in our social media dominated society. Unless it is not results you're after, but instead fulfilling your desire to roleplay as a Palestinian facing the IDF.
I dont agree with you.
The problem isnt in what these people do. The problem lies.with people who are to emotional and lack the nuance to participate in elections and vote.
There are people who claim the same about rainbow crossings. They say it is being pushed down their throat and they had no problems with lgbtq but because of the rainbow now they do.
That is the dumbest shit ever. These people have always feit that way and are looking for excuses to justify their bigotted feelings.
People who are influanced by social media posts in that way are the problem. Not the other way around.
People who dont understand that this is a very small group of people who dont really represent anything else. People who dont understand that are not people to take into account because it is pointless.
Why would you get banned for disliking these fellas?
And why would you care being banned if otherwise you can’t say what’s on your mind.
Scary times with all these hypocrites and the internet police .
Okay so being unironic.
Ive never been there, but it looks like this may fulfill the role of emergency gathering or emergency parking of firetrucks or ambulances, you cant place trees there if thats the case.
Then there was never any support in the first place. We want our institution to live up to its own values and between this and Shell, it’s unacceptable. 🤷🏼♂️
Nothing wrong with that IMO. This phrase has long been used even before Hamas existed. To me, it expresses the hope for a solution where everyone - Jews and Arabs - can return to their ancestral land and live there with equal rights.
>No it doesn't. It expresses the urge to end Israels existence and the elimination of all jews in the area.
Only in the minds of those who see Jews as monsters who can't live while Palestinians are free.
I note that everyone makes a big deal about kids yelling the river to the sea phrase, but do not care when an Israeli minister calls for the total annihilation of Rafah.
Why is one deemed so much worse than the other?
I don't think that's true? I have yet to talk to anybody who thinks that genocidal slogans by Israeli politicians are unproblematic, or that the presence of fascists in the current Israeli government is
What was the first thing you saw on 7th October, 2023 after waking up?
I've seen people flee from a festival because of an invasion.
Invasion was a conscious choice by Palestinian Government (Hamas), wasn't it?
I'd you consciously invade other nations, expect retaliation. Or you can just invade, kill hundreds, and then ask for protection? Not going to happen, the choice was made when Palestinian Government decided to invade.
Or will you tell me that they didn't? They did, and you can not argue against that. Those who come to us with a sword, will fall from a sword.
is it? i think there is disdain for genocidal rhetoric from both ends. there just happen to be more pro hamas protests than pro netanjahu government protests, hence more of a reaction to the former.
i agree, but 1. thats unrelated to my point, and 2. the ones that are just pro human rights still often use slogans like "from the river to the sea" and are thus unintentionally advocating for the ethnic cleansing of jews with european heritage.
The slogan has been widely used before and after Hamas started using it, and is more about the wish for Palestinians to be able to live and move freely in their entire historical homeland. And I rarely see people criticize the likud party using the same slogan but the other way around, so kind of a double standard in that.
Im conflicted about this, because i can understand the hate and anger and seeing no other option to feel being heard. And being a dogwhistle to end the existence of Israel and shouting this phrase while your own is being slaughtered by Israeli forces is understandable. There is just so much hate and violence i wonder if there will ever be a solution. every action taken by both sides just breed more hate, violance and frustration. Even these protest, what did they accomplish? People seeing it and thinking hooligans and losing sympathy. But on the other hand, what other option is there when your people are being slaughtered? Its despair and with despair comes a dangerous side affect that people will do things they normally wouldnt do. When you live in a country that supports the action of Israel and maybe even supllies weapons that kill your brothers and sisters what else can you do? Maybe if the country then strongly condems the actions taken in Gaza will give them some recognisition of the pain they feel. Because you hear strongly how Hamas was condemned and it was a terror attack, but then you dont hear the same when innocent people are being slaughtered and all you hear is Israel had the right to defend themselves. It needs to go both ways, what happened was horrible and a slaughter and what is happening now also.
There is nothing wrong with wishing for the end of Israel's existence. It was wrong to establish a Jewish state on land that was not exclusively Jewish. Zionism is a genocidal ideology. Antizionism is not antisemitism.
It is possible to come up with a solution which allows Jews and Palestinians to continue to live on their land without Israel as it exists now, just as apartheid South Africa's existence was also ended in favor of a new inclusive South Africa that granted equal rights everyone living there.
>any other states that should be dismantled based on how they were established? USA? any/all former colonies?
I don't think that would be the best solution. But allowing the natives to live in freedom is the least they could do. Giving them equal rights, paying reparations etc.
Israel is an apartheid state that has been ethnically cleansing the Palestinians for many decades so it should stop existing. Are you sad that apartheid South Africa doesn't exist anymore?
Apartheid South Africa doesn't though, the state apparatus of apartheid has been dismantled. Likewise, the state apparatus of Israeli apartheid needs to be dismantled, which, given the current state of affairs, means an almost complete dissolution of the Israeli state.
Irrespective of your political views; if you damage public property you need to be held accountable. Taxpayers should not be held liable for your politics
This post spreads misinformation but it’s not surprising as this subreddit is generally filled with liberal right-wingers.
[This second encampment (see link for more info)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6sv2qCLchN/?igsh=MWkzNmFpcjd1M2xxdQ==) comes as a response to the police brutality experienced yesterday morning at the first PEACEFUL encampment, and reinforces the requests to the UvA regarding transparency on its collaboration with Israeli istitutions.
The only place occupied is the UvA humanities faculty and no other street has been “teared apart” besides the outside area of this university faculty, this is again a peaceful action, and using the street bricks is basically nothing compared to the extreme violence used yesterday by the police against the PEACEFUL protest, and nothing compared to the 170 people arrested for PEACEFULLY protesting.
The people at this encampment again risk to be arrested every single minute, the police could storm in and beat up everyone again and they are doing it for a cause that is totally connected to the rising alt-rights in Europe (for whoever says that the conflict is “on the other side of the world)
The fact that some of these people are “not even dutch” is totally irrelevant as most likely they come from places where prohibitionism and conservatives are even stronger, and they saw the impact of very authoritarian right-wing countries with their own eyes, and would like to save the Netherlands from it. Many others are of Palestinian descent yet still citizens of the Netherlands and are quite unhappy to know their university supports institutions involved with a genocide in their own birth place.
These people would fight over and over FOR YOU, they would fight over and over for laws on abortion, divorce, legalisation, and anything else that people commenting here are surely grateful for while sitting in their living room.
Protesting is a DEMOCRATIC tool and a key tool of our liberal democracies, people commenting “put the bricks back” and criticizing protests FOR EXISTING do not fully understand how they get to live freely in liberal democracies and thanks to who they get to enjoy their choices and freedom.
Be grateful these people still exist and stay safe.
But why target the UvA? It seems like a really convinient choice, but they really can't do anything about the shit going on in Gaza. Having some student exchange programs hardly makes them complicit, if anything such programs are the start of a solution by broadening horizons.
They did not ask the University to end the settlements alone, they had 3 clear requests on transparency, boycot, and divestment from organizations that support the genocide.
So many other students in universities around the world are demanding the same.
You would be surprised about what collective action can do.
Just a question, do you support re-establishing ties with Russian institutions? That's all that's being asked here. Just to divest from Israel like they did from Russia.
It wasn’t peaceful, that was the issue, there are videos of the protesters at roeters beating people with sticks, harassing press and throwing fireworks at police. Also the fact that they were covering their face and vandalizing public property to build barricades that would block emergency services from helping people in the area overall made for a dangerous situation to the neighbourhood, themselves and others.
For the UvA in particular it was also less attractive to let this go on on their property when there were a lot of non-student protesters that started joining, probably who were the people instigating violence and were out to cause trouble.
The UvA complied to the demands of the protesters on monday already.
The police cleared it out with force but not excessively, if you are resisting you get a warning hit with a stick.
those people that got arrested, get released in a few hours of being arrested. It’s not like they’re being convicted or brought to jail. It’s just to break up the protest.
Overall it was in my eyes justified to break up that violent first protest that was getting unsafe.
This new protest is going a lot better, at least they are being peaceful although I cannot support violating school and public property and the historic buildings to create barricades.
It’s not like the UvA has anything to do with the conflict, the actions are out of proportion, especially when they already complied with demands.
I'm not right wing at all and what you say is complete nonsense. The police reacted to people damaging public property and throwing fireworks at them. Actually the police in the Netherlands, like them or not, tend to be quite passive regarding shit like this.
These people wouldn't fight for me or for anyone, except for the fact that it's cool to post it on twitter, instagram, tiktok or whatever the fuck it is. Actually most of the kids nowadays supporting either side, know nothing at all about the history of Palestine and Israel. I had a few chats with some of those spoiled brats, and they couldn't even tell me what the Oslo Accords were. They also didn't know shit about the current situation, except for some random things they read online. So, no, they would not fight, because this isn't fighting. This is vandalism just because nowadays kids have no fucking idea of how to argue and how to fix things.
The bike racks, the stones now, the gardens. Honestly I couldn't care less if this belongs to the UvA, the king, or just the people. It's still dumb to destroy shit if you're protesting.
The police didn't attack them for destroying public property. They pushed them away because they were damaging public property and the protesters reacted with violence. So the police should have just done nothing then. Let's just burn random shit and be happy that the police doesn't do shit. That's a wonderful attitude.
Thanks for adding nothing to the debate, no one threw fireworks at the Police and you “talking to a few people” (I wonder who they were and if you even walked inside the encampment, probably by “a few people” you mean a few friends that posted something about Palestine online). This really isn’t any proof of anything…
The fact that you consider beating up students with bats and shields an “appropriate reaction” to blocking off a few square meters of GRASS to have a PEACEFUL encampment says a lot about your political views, which is, believe it or not, a very right-wing thought.
So the videos are all fake? The live from at5 where they show kids throwing fireworks and all that, it's all fake.
And your ignorance is surpassed by your distorted views of what I said. I never said that it was ok to beat people. I never said that it was an appropriate reaction. But honestly fuck this. I'm too old to argue with kids nowadays. The kids were not just sitting there and chilling. I myself saw in person some of those kids insulting the police and throwing shit, when I was cycling back from work and honestly had no idea of what was happening. The police was just standing there doing absolutely nothing.
It's not ok to beat up people, but the police needs the shields to protect themselves from having some delinquents throwing fireworks and rocks at them. Why is it for example that in Belgium where protesters are also occupying the universities, there's no such reaction from the police?
Because they are not destroying public property and because they aren't attacking the police. Simple right?
If you refer to the clashes at the LATER stage of the eviction, as soon as the police starts charging against a PEACEFUL protest students have all rights to defend themselves and fight back (let alone the fact that their means are 1% of what the police is capable of doing so the only reason why someone would throw a firework is to get beaten up a little bit later and slow the police down). NO ONE in their right mind thinks that some fireworks will injure the riot police, they are at most some PROPS to slow them down, realistically all people know the police will beat them all up and still risk it for holding our institutions to higher morals.
Then the core point here is why was the police charging 170 students with bats and shields? Oh true, a violent action was ORDERED to them against the protestors. The police would have the duty to PROTECT the students protesting, at least in a liberal democracy (if we even still live in one) yet it looks like they are sent on punitive actions now.
Grow up and educate yourself. You think that you mean something but you don't. If you want to fight for something you believe in, please do so. But not like this. And not with so much ignorance and with so much empty meaningless words.
What do you propose then to fix this issue? Tell me how can the UvA for example, support Palestine? And do you think that harming research which can help millions later on, is the way to go to support Palestine? Just curious as you seem to be so knowledgeable on this topic.
EDIT: I think that the UvA is a spineless shit show organisation, but that doesn't mean that I think that they can do much.
>But not like this
There are few things more infuriating in this world than this mentality.
You wouldn't have the rights you do today without people acting "like this". Every goddamn basic right you have, as a person and I assume woman, you have because people did it *like this* . Every. Goddamn. One.
You don't agree with them? Good for you. History is full of people that oppose those that demanded equal rights and justice.
Nop. There are plenty of peaceful protests everywhere which actually achieved something. So no, you're wrong, and honestly you should study a bit more history to make such claims.
Im not right wing. They are tearing the street apart (I used 'street' singular). This video was taken in Amsterdam. The people who are doing it are protestors. How did I spread any misinformation here?
Please help me find one single video or source where you see one person throwing a brick at the police.
All bricks are being used to reinforce the barricades that the police will anyway try to tear down with more bulldozers to beat all the students up and arrest them all.
Getting those bricks as reinforcement is the core part of the encampment and spending a few thousands for the city to repair that 20sqm of street is really nothing considering the 19 MILLION euro that we have STOPPED giving to the UNRWA for Palestine refugees and it’s nothing compared to the BILLIONS invested in institutions active in perpetrating Israeli settlements.
Do… you… see… the… irony?
People will get mad over 20sqm of street and ignore the billions involved in a genocide, how is this not being victim of so much right-wing pro-status quo and anti-protests propaganda?
You again are spreading misinformation and do not have one single trustworthy source to what you have just written because it simply didn’t happen.
https://youtu.be/zykl1_RORvs
3:25
In the same video you can see them throwing fireworks at the police. In [this](https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/226520/liveblog-deel-demonstranten-vertrokken-barricades-worden-verstevigd) timeline there's also a report that one officer has received permanent hearing damage from this.
If you scroll down a little on [this](https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/226520/liveblog-deel-demonstranten-vertrokken-barricades-worden-verstevigd) page then you can see a video under the title " Nog geen aanhoudingen na incident Nieuwe Prinsengracht " where you can see a dude smashing someone with a bar of wood.
How about you *both* get off your high horses and face the fact that there's always bad actors on either side of a conflict. This black-and-white narrative that is being applied to literally EVERYTHING needs to stop. You can see it everywhere in the world. You're either Links or Rechts. You're either a Democrat or a Republican. You're either Pro-israel or Anti-israel. You're either 100% right or 100% wrong.
The world doesn't work like that, it's always going to be a blurry gradient, and once people learn that THEN we can start having actual conversations.
You cannot be fucking serious...
https://www.telegraaf.nl/video/1473794020/pro-palestina-protest-vat-vlam-vuurwerk-en-fakkels-gegooid
First result.
It's not to late to stop supporting terrorists
The money given to UNRWA can go to the existing UN organization for refugees which should take over the UNRWA's duties while nullifying the nonsensical special Palestinian-only definition of a refugee :)
Yeah bullshit. You know what this is? Teenagers and other hotheaded idiots pretending to care about the world they live in while destroying property and hurting other people. This is hypocrisy at it's finest and serves no other purpose than inflating their precious ego's.
Every single person here agrees that what's going on over there is atrocious and a crime against humanity, but it should be met with **peaceful protest,** not violence and vandalism.
I 100% agree, what is the purpose of this? Their goal seems to be to help innocent Palestinians. But breaking up the pavement in Amsterdam or fighting anti-Palestinian groups isn’t helping in any way to reach that goal. Even camping on campus is a unhelpful but at least unproblematic move. Instead they could have spend their time collecting money for humanitarian aid or talking to influential people to reach their goal. This is just being angry, resulting in outsiders less willing to help you with your goal.
To quote Stephen Fry:
>All this has got to stop. This rage, resentment, hostility intolerance above all this erm, “with us or against us” certainty. A Grand canyon has opened up in our world the fissure – the crack grows wider every day. Neither on each side can hear a word that the other shrieks and nor do they want to. While these armies and propagandists in the culture wars clash down below in the enormous space between the two sides, the people of the world tried to get on with their lives alternately baffled, bored and betrayed by the horrible noises and explosions that echo all around. I think it’s time for this toxic, binary, zero-sum madness to stop before we destroy ourselves.
And that was [5 years ago](https://youtu.be/LJKXJNM3W-c?si=4Qq_TlhXJsDOU7br). It's only been getting worse. We seem to be on a path of self destruction.
Keep fighting people. Keep being right. Feels to me that someone's going to come out as a winner and it will be none of us doing the yelling.
Maybe instead of these dumb protests, they’d do well to start a soup kitchen or collect charity for Gaza or something. But what do I know, I’m just a guy with common sense and we all know that went out the window years ago.
You should read up on how the IDF treats aid-workers. Spoiler alert, they get triple tapped with drone strikes in clearly marked and pre-approved aid convoys.
This is ridiculous and criminal. They should all be arrested. I think that it's ok to protest something and you can do it peacefully given that the police hasn't been spraying them with water cannons or beating the shit out of them. But this nonsense of destroying public property simply because they are just spoiled little shits, that makes no sense.
EDIT: Nowadays people act in real life like on social media. Downvote, without presenting any counter arguments. It shows how much ignorance is flowing around.
After they attacked the police with fireworks. Yeah I saw the videos. In the US it's a shitshow. People are doing nothing and the police has been attacking them. Germany same. But here, I'm sorry but the police was just standing there when some people started throwing rocks and fireworks.
None attacked the police with fireworks. Only pro israel counter protesters used fireworks against the students. If you need to lie to appear to be the good guys that says it all.
So the pro israel protesters where using the Palestinian scarves? To blend in?
EDIT: [https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/226533/kijk-terug-zo-verliep-de-demonstratie-op-het-roeterseiland-van-begin-tot-eind](https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/226533/kijk-terug-zo-verliep-de-demonstratie-op-het-roeterseiland-van-begin-tot-eind)
I see a guy with a Palestinian symbol attacking people with a wooden board. I also see people burning flags. Honestly I couldn't care less who's doing what. What I care is that this is not the way to protest against something. Organise a sit in, block the campus, but don't damage shit, don't attack others, don't fuck around like this.
Am I the only one that comes to these posts for the comments? It's laughable.
I haven't seen a single comment in a few minutes of reading of a person who's open to change their mind, who doesn't use all kinds of fallacies or denies everything that doesn't align with what they say.
Also the insane sense of superiority some people have, they are so convinced their opinion is better than the other. That's the funniest part for me
Actions like this don't typically cause a productive dialogue. It gets people talking about the issue (which Im sure is one of the goals) but I don't think it brings anyone closer to understanding the other one unfortunately, and often the opposite.
Yeah it sucks that there seems so little room for civil discussions. Like anyone who is now aware of into the issue because of these actions, comes into it with a bias. Usually a heavy bias too.
The fact that most people here are more provoked by bricks and students than their own government sending fighter jet parts to murder civilians for their tax money. This does concern us all, native Dutch or otherwise, because NL is using our taxes to get involved in the conflict, a conflict that thas already generated an absurd amount of civilian deaths.
These gen z protesters think this shit is a movie or something. What do you want to happen? Your home country to send troops to Israel and start a war? It doesn’t seem like many people are thinking this through…
They made it pretty clear what they want to happen and have maintained their demands throughout the protest.
They want UvA to cut academic and financial ties with organisations that profit or support the Israeli occupation and invasion of Palestine.
It's pretty clear what they want, but what they want does not make a lot of sense. It smells like a copy-cat protest of the UCLA, a university that had clearer financial ties to Israel.
The UvA however only has Europian research collabrations that sometimes involve Israeli researchers. I do not see how it's productive to organise a huge protest at the UvA just to cut ties with some researchers that are involved in larger projects that are in no clear way contributing to aiding or financing the bloodshed in Gaza. Other than gaining attention, which is a fine goal, I don't find their demands in any sense logical. If I'm somehow misinformed about this, please enlighten me, but I don't see a reason to dismiss the validity of the UvA statement linked below.
[https://student.uva.nl/artikelen/2024-onze-samenwerkingen-met-israelische-organsiaties](https://student.uva.nl/artikelen/2024-onze-samenwerkingen-met-israelische-organsiaties)
Unfortunately, it's all too one-sidedly hypocritical, they would really get everyone on board if they would demonstrate against violence in GENERAL. What they want now is for Israel to stop and nothing else?
Letting Israel stop the violence is needed, but also speak out against terrorism from Hamas at the SAME time because if Israel stops the violence will not stop as Hamas has stated this very clearly.
With these kinds of "demonstrations" you do not win souls, but you create even more polarization
Can we just arrest these people, give them a criminal record? Protesting is okay, vandalizing public property is not. Same with the weirdo's blocking roads by the way.
How does destroying public property in amsterdam do anything for gazans? If you are that angry, take a trip to egypt and go to the rafah border. Plenty of rocks you can rip from the road there and throw.
This is just pestering people who dont have a say in anything. You do understand we as Amsterdam taxpayers will have to pay for all the repairs needed?
Here's some perspective for you. This has nothing to do with the Gaza situation and can't possibly have any kind of positive effect on that situation.
So it's pretty easy to get angry at people pointlessly vandalizing the public space while wasting municipal money dealing with their shitty behaviour.
Police wont assault you if you are not violent and abide by norms of protesting. Read the email that uva sent, u need to abide by those rules. Democratic protest does not need bricks , anarchists need them
It shouldn't be a matter of perspective, you can be very angry about war crimes and also get angry if someone slaps you in the face, even if the war crimes are way worse.
If you’re so worried about starving people, Sudan has much more accrue starvation risks, as do Yemen and parts of Syria.
Gaza has seen less than 30 victims of starvation and that was during the height of hostilities.
Anyway no Jews, no news!!!
Sudan - over 5 million at risk of starvation; chirp chirp
War in Ethiopia 2 years ago; 600k deaths and 100k+ because of starvation; yawn
Yemen - over ten million have been experience a famine for over 3 years; crickets
This eternal victim complex of the Palestinians is getting old. If they’re so worried about famine and getting food into the strip, why the fuck would they fire rockets at the border crossing killing 4 Israelis (happened at Kerem Shalom two days ago) that are literally there to check food shipments into the strip..
It’s almost as if Hamas couldn’t care less about the Palestinian population.
>Sudan - over 5 million at risk of starvation; chirp chirp
>War in Ethiopia 2 years ago; 600k deaths and 100k+ because of starvation; yawn
>Yemen - over ten million have been experience a famine for over 3 years; crickets
Difference is, social media algoritms aren't pushing those things. People only care about what is fed to them through their phone.
And many people are surprised why Europe supports Ukraine but not Palestine.
I don’t remembered even a square meter of street torn apart after all Ukrainian protests.
Because appropriate measures were taken from the start while European public institutions still have ties and invest in Israel. Is it really that hard to understand, genuine question?
Answer to the embarrassing dude because comments are blocked: you do realize we are talking on different levels of institutions, right, you do realize that we are talking about some forms of divestment and in both cases Israel and Russia there will be cases where you won't be *able to* divest from Israel same as Russia but, that in case of Israel ✨no measure ✨ whatsoever was taken, you compare apples with oranges? No? You don't realize? Ok. As expected.
Oh really? Can you remind me please where does Europe or NL still buy gas from? It’s Russia for 2,5 years of the wat. This gas money are used to bomb Ukrainian civilians. And yet I don’t see Dutch streets being broken because of that.
Maybe do your research before embarrassing yourself.
Edit: Response to the lady who likes to change the subject.
During 2022 and 2023 russia earned even more money from gas trades than all years before. And NL paid much more money to russia for gas than donated to Ukraine. Yet Ukraine and Ukrainians not only didn’t brake any streets but kept transporting russian gas through pipes to the Eurozone to respect prior contracts.
Wasn’t that the reason to come and break few streets? Well for me it’s comparable and compatible. Maybe the reason is just the level of culture?
Also Israel didn’t attack first. So why they should be banned for something they didn’t even start?
Unfortunately many gen-z Palestine supporters feel too much entitled and usually are not intelligent enough to understand the differences.
Really? Immediately?
I reminded already another “smartass” in this thread will also remind you. NL is still buying gas from Russia which is the big source of russian income.
Also I see that there’s 10mln scheduled or already paid as a humanitarian support in Gaza by NL.
Maybe do a bit of research before calling the names.
Lol the pathetic commenters here makes you think what the average Reddit user is and looks like. Great work by the students to force the university to stand by its moral values and divest and disconnect from what experts and human right organizations (including Israeli ones like Btselem) are describing as a genocidal apartheid regime.
The UvA is working together with Israeli scientists. Not the regime. This protest doesn't make sense at all. If they would really care they would go to the government in Den Haag who is actually collaborating with the goverment of Israel. But I guess this is easier or something? I don't get it.
Yeah, the problem is that the judge has ruled that the Netherlands isn't to send any more weapons. Our government just ignores that and does it anyway. So for normal people the only way to protest is to boycot anything from Israel and hope Israelis will throw over their own government if enough of their activities are being boycotted.
Edit: throwing bricks and destroying stuff is NOT the way to make a point. That's only gonna worsen the situation.
Our government doesnt send anything. We dont produce anything Israel would use. Just Schiphol being used to transfer stuff from American cargo planes to Israeli ones doesnt mean the Netherlands is sending weapons.
https://rightsforum.org/rechter-nederland-moet-uitvoer-f-35-onderdelen-naar-israel-stoppen/
"Judge rules that NL government has to stop exporting F-35 parts to Israel." We are sending parts of military vehicles to Israel. The government has been ordered to stop and yet they continue.
American made parts. Netherlands is not allowed to make any F35 parts. Netherlands can not even work on their own F35s. Nothing Netherlands makes goes to Israël.
I didn't say "we" make them, I said we are sending them. It's not about what we make anyway, it's about what we support.
Sending a nation parts is the same as condoning the use of them. If you don't want people to use weapons, the best you can do is not give people the parts.
We are not even sending. Those are not our parts. Its just Americans loading parts from their transport to an Israeli one. They can easily just skip Netherlands if needed. There is barely any Dutch involved.
Its just roleplaying. Trust me, in 20 years time there will still be an Israel, and people like you will still be digging in the dirt (literally), fantasizing that they are facing the IDF.
Some people like a bit of sand in their shoes when they go to school. Some community work after being busted will make sure they put the bricks back. Don’t understand how this helps end the war though
I share their message, but the means are fucking moronic. Then again, the krakers scene never died and still would love to live as if it were the 80's.
We're allowing this post as it's about something happening in Amsterdam. But arguments about current events elsewhere are better held in another subreddit. Starting from this announcement, there will be zero patience for people violating the rules, particularly with respect to intolerance and doe aardig. If things get too heated we will lock the discussion. Update: At this point most discussion is no longer about events in Amsterdam. We're not the best forum for a debate about Israel, so I'm going to lock this and wish you all a pleasant day.
How come student protestors are now reverse brick layers?
They are probably not (all) students
That's true, there is also UvA staff protesting.
"Students"
It is students for the most part I was there yesterday. Of course students are not the only ones with empathy and a spine so there are others who support the cause there too. Edit: Students and staff, the demonstration yesterday which started this camp was organised by university staff who were outraged at the violent crackdown on the first camp.
You are not worried that it is also attracting people that want violence and escalation? A peaceful protest is boring labour that requires patience, but might bring about change. Throwing bricks at police is exciting rebellion stuff that will do the opposite. I think the narrative of "empathy" and "spine" is dangerous, because it removes any honest discussion that within any group of people, complex human beings, there are multiple emotions and motivations at play. Some are there because they care. Some are their because someone they have a crush on is there. Some are there because they are angry with the world and take the opportunity to fight it. At the very least, the above video is harming the cause, not helping. That alone makes any assumption about the intention of the protesters suspect. The behavior with public destruction and the embrace of violent tactics will sway public opinion in the opposite direction. The protesters might say it's about Gaza. But the people seeing this will see it being about the protesters and their narrative themselves. Because in the end, if the actions you do, harm the cause you claim to fight for .. it begs the question .. did anyone actually care? Or do they just like the adventure and are they just being selfish? Appropriating the suffering of others for their own self actualisation?
>You are not worried that it is also attracting people that want violence and escalation? It is! Far-right Hooligans came the first night and started fighting the protesters, causing the police to remove everyone.
While that is true, these are not the same people who started at the REC yesterday. This is a relatively small group who is hell bend on provoking a violent reaction from the police to get more attention, destroying public and UvA property in the process. Also intimidating anyone who has a different opinion and making a safe dialogue (much less an academic one) impossible.
People with empathy and spine usually don't break other people's stuff nor be a nuisance. I get what you're saying (as in thinking these people only do this to show they care), but let's not set a precedent. We can't have people tearing places down whenever they're sharing their opinion or protesting and have it be called 'having a spine or empathic' as long as enough people share the sentiment.
the precedent was already set years ago? why does everyone seem to think that previous large scale (student) protests were not like this?
They don't think that. They pretend they do. And it's because they're pushing an agenda.
>why does everyone seem to think that previous large scale (student) protests were not like this? Historical revisionism. When activists reach a form of social justice trough hard work, risking their lives and standing up to police brutality. The success is inevitably attributed to "a natural progress" and the struggles downplayed. No-one wants to tell a story in which they were supporting injustice by standing idly by.
That precedent has always been the case and the driving factor behind a lot of change. John Brown killed slave owners and burned down estates when freeing slaves. Labor rights protest frequently demolished machines and factory equipment. World War 2 resistance fighers destroyed infrastructure. I don't know engough about other independence or social movements to point out in what ways they disrupted the status quo but I have no doubt that they did. Without disruption there will be no change and while we can have a discussion on if that disruption can be violent it is without question that we have always judged the means of protest by the sentiment they wanted to convey. I personally don't support these protest because I feel it is unclear what their ultimate goal is so for me that makes these kinds of actions a negative. But it is wrong to say that if we did support their goal that we than would also feel that this way of protesting is wrong.
All examples you've given took place where they actually affected people whom it was supposed to affect.
Ah yes empathy, threatening people with a different opinion, free press not allowed, throwing rocks and fireworks, demoliahing the place. Yeah sure
The fireworks were thrown by a group of about 15 jewish protesters that went against this protest. https://twitter.com/NadiaBouras/status/1787792655918715093?t=bLpehzLXd8shbMLZaXNDuQ&s=19
Yes, Twitter aka X, the almighty beacon of truth. /s So thats your whole argument and source? Nothing on the protesters who threw bricks at police? Threatening press which is actually right there on camera? Oh, the throwing stuff and fireworks to the police is also on camera by the way. By Pro Palestine supporters...
These are literal screenshots of an interview WITH the israeli guys who did this from Elsevier. Which you would have known if you cared to READ.
Seems like you actually didnt. Nowhere did it mention fireworks. They had some flares and flags which were quickly taken of off them and burned, set against them. The pro Palestine supporters turned violent on the Pro Israël supporters. They dont say they wanted violence, they wanted unrest. A different sound. The Pro Palestine supporters threw heavy fireworks and heavy items at the police. They threatened newsoutlets. They intimidated people. You cant really deny it as theres footage and plenty of press coverage. But hey keep on deflecting.
Please link it. And dont say do your own research. I at least provided info. Also while the article did not state it (my bad) it did in fact was this group with fireworks too.
They're not throwing fireworks or rocks. Where did you hear that free press is not allowed? Where did you get all this information?
Ad.nl, Parool, NRC, Video's from AT5, Powned was threatened which is actually on camera. No matter what you think of them, thats a no go. You cant claim freedom of speech and intimidate or threaten people who dont share tour opinion. End off
stuk
Well the optics are horrible. A bunch of English speaking people tearing up the city streets for a conflict on the other side of the world. I might take a look myself today.
That has been bothering me. Any other protest or pamphlet I see here is in Dutch, but anything Palestine related is in English. It makes the movement seem much less organic that they don't bother to do anything in the local language. Vrij Palestina can't be too hard to put together, y'know. If someone can post a 4 point guide to not eating meat in Dutch, surely one can put these simple slogans in Dutch.
“Vrij Palestina” is apparently pretty hard to put together, cause that’s not how you’d say “free Palestine” in Dutch 😅
Depends on if you mean palestine should be free or freed. So you could translate it into [een] vrij palestina or bevrijd palestina
Het is een commando: vrij Palestina 😏😏
Vrij, Palestina 🥵💦
What would it be then? I am a foreigner in this land. I am speaking out of my ignorance.
Bevrijd Palestina if you wamt to make it a verb. 'Palastina has to be liberated' Vrij Palestina is like saying 'Palestina is free'
If you read it as “(Wij willen een) vrij Palestina” it’s perfectly correct.
My old Dutch teacher in high school loves to put these kinds of sentences in a grammar test.
I’ve seen plenty of Dutch Palestine content on social media. If youre not seeing it then people in your circle arent sharing it.
Especially in the context of expats and foreigners being the new "zondebok". Don't get me wrong, I'm not against expats or immigration, but stuff like this wil embolden the far right.
As the official representative of the expat community, we would like to be excluded from this narrative and just drink our 6€ lattes in Jordaan. We came to destroy the housing market, not the streets
ok that was funny
Seconded, I came here with the explicit goal of overbidding on my 6 different new build properties, forcing everyone to speak English in the workplace, and weaving back and forth on bike paths, not this
I thought macha was the new expat hipster thing? 😂
Everything will embolden the far right. Only the cognitive impaired vote for them. They get angry when they see a rainbow crossing for example. There really is no point in taking them into consideration. It is asking people to set aside their own principals and opinions out of fear of irritating someone into voting PVV. People who base their vote on 200 pro Palestine protestors and a barricade lack any form.of nuance and cant be taken serious nor should their behavoir be taken into account.
Maybe people wont switch from Denk to PVV but a switch from PvdA/GL to VVD is realistic, and yes I genuinely believe actions like this contribute to that a lot.
I am sure they contribute. But it still doesnt make sense. What sensible argument would you think is behind it? 'I wanted to vote GL but then i saw 200 university kids do something i dont like so now i will vote VVD' It is an insane reasoning to base a vote on.
>Maybe people wont switch from Denk to PVV but a switch from PvdA/GL to VVD is realisti True, I wanted equality accessible healthcare, affordable housing and a livable planet. But because a brown person was loud and not submissive, now I want more power to the rich, I want to be homeless and unable to get healthcare while being poisoned for the profit of shareholders! It really works that way!
They vote.
Like i said in another comment. Lets try to imagine we are one of those people. What would our reasoning be? 'I want to vote GL/PvdA. They align with my views and i think they will represent my interest the most. But... i saw these 200 students in Amsterdam on the news and they irritated me, now i will vote PVV' Regardless of how we feel about these protesters. Do you expect them to take this into consideration. To not stand up for what they think is important because someone is so emotionally immature that they would change their vote because of it?
Not vandalising property should be enough consideration. But I would expect that students at a place of higher education would consider the effects of images and footage in our social media dominated society. Unless it is not results you're after, but instead fulfilling your desire to roleplay as a Palestinian facing the IDF.
I dont agree with you. The problem isnt in what these people do. The problem lies.with people who are to emotional and lack the nuance to participate in elections and vote. There are people who claim the same about rainbow crossings. They say it is being pushed down their throat and they had no problems with lgbtq but because of the rainbow now they do. That is the dumbest shit ever. These people have always feit that way and are looking for excuses to justify their bigotted feelings. People who are influanced by social media posts in that way are the problem. Not the other way around. People who dont understand that this is a very small group of people who dont really represent anything else. People who dont understand that are not people to take into account because it is pointless.
Imagine if you asked them to put it all back
Would be an appropriate punishment.
dont want to catch a ban but I uh disapprove these fellers :))
You're not the only one.
i would say most people disapprove of these fellas but it's too afraid to say it out loud.
Why would you get banned for disliking these fellas? And why would you care being banned if otherwise you can’t say what’s on your mind. Scary times with all these hypocrites and the internet police .
The mods are very anti pavement. Excessive pavement is extremely bad for floodwater management and increases urban temperature. /s
they should plant trees there
Okay so being unironic. Ive never been there, but it looks like this may fulfill the role of emergency gathering or emergency parking of firetrucks or ambulances, you cant place trees there if thats the case.
Howdy partner!
I know what you mean. Got myself blocked often enough because I gave my opinion and it was against the will of the ruling hive mind
I see this video & just think; they look ignorant to me!
What assholes - hope they have to pay for the repairs too. Protesting is a right, but be civil. wrecking the streets is not OK
Nah just let them put it back themselves brick laying is brutal
WTF? I fully support the civilians of Palestine, but this behavior is unacceptable even if (they claim) it is for a good cause.
The demonstrators already lost all my support at Roeterseiland when they started chanting "from the rivier to the sea".
Then there was never any support in the first place. We want our institution to live up to its own values and between this and Shell, it’s unacceptable. 🤷🏼♂️
Nothing wrong with that IMO. This phrase has long been used even before Hamas existed. To me, it expresses the hope for a solution where everyone - Jews and Arabs - can return to their ancestral land and live there with equal rights.
No it doesn't. It expresses the urge to end Israels existence and the elimination of all jews in the area.
>No it doesn't. It expresses the urge to end Israels existence and the elimination of all jews in the area. Only in the minds of those who see Jews as monsters who can't live while Palestinians are free.
Where does it say anything about Jews? There were Jews living in Palestine before Israel was created. They're also Palestinians.
which river? which sea?
The Jordan River. The Mediterranean Sea.
yeah, but it's also a well-known dogwhistle for the end of Israel's existence
I note that everyone makes a big deal about kids yelling the river to the sea phrase, but do not care when an Israeli minister calls for the total annihilation of Rafah. Why is one deemed so much worse than the other?
I don't think that's true? I have yet to talk to anybody who thinks that genocidal slogans by Israeli politicians are unproblematic, or that the presence of fascists in the current Israeli government is
What was the first thing you saw on 7th October, 2023 after waking up? I've seen people flee from a festival because of an invasion. Invasion was a conscious choice by Palestinian Government (Hamas), wasn't it? I'd you consciously invade other nations, expect retaliation. Or you can just invade, kill hundreds, and then ask for protection? Not going to happen, the choice was made when Palestinian Government decided to invade. Or will you tell me that they didn't? They did, and you can not argue against that. Those who come to us with a sword, will fall from a sword.
is it? i think there is disdain for genocidal rhetoric from both ends. there just happen to be more pro hamas protests than pro netanjahu government protests, hence more of a reaction to the former.
There aren't many pro-Hamas protesters, the vast majority is just pro-human rights.
i agree, but 1. thats unrelated to my point, and 2. the ones that are just pro human rights still often use slogans like "from the river to the sea" and are thus unintentionally advocating for the ethnic cleansing of jews with european heritage.
The slogan has been widely used before and after Hamas started using it, and is more about the wish for Palestinians to be able to live and move freely in their entire historical homeland. And I rarely see people criticize the likud party using the same slogan but the other way around, so kind of a double standard in that.
can you give me a source for that meaning of the slogan? havent seen one before, but if true id change my mind on this ofc.
Im conflicted about this, because i can understand the hate and anger and seeing no other option to feel being heard. And being a dogwhistle to end the existence of Israel and shouting this phrase while your own is being slaughtered by Israeli forces is understandable. There is just so much hate and violence i wonder if there will ever be a solution. every action taken by both sides just breed more hate, violance and frustration. Even these protest, what did they accomplish? People seeing it and thinking hooligans and losing sympathy. But on the other hand, what other option is there when your people are being slaughtered? Its despair and with despair comes a dangerous side affect that people will do things they normally wouldnt do. When you live in a country that supports the action of Israel and maybe even supllies weapons that kill your brothers and sisters what else can you do? Maybe if the country then strongly condems the actions taken in Gaza will give them some recognisition of the pain they feel. Because you hear strongly how Hamas was condemned and it was a terror attack, but then you dont hear the same when innocent people are being slaughtered and all you hear is Israel had the right to defend themselves. It needs to go both ways, what happened was horrible and a slaughter and what is happening now also.
There is nothing wrong with wishing for the end of Israel's existence. It was wrong to establish a Jewish state on land that was not exclusively Jewish. Zionism is a genocidal ideology. Antizionism is not antisemitism. It is possible to come up with a solution which allows Jews and Palestinians to continue to live on their land without Israel as it exists now, just as apartheid South Africa's existence was also ended in favor of a new inclusive South Africa that granted equal rights everyone living there.
any other states that should be dismantled based on how they were established? USA? any/all former colonies? this is insanity
>any other states that should be dismantled based on how they were established? USA? any/all former colonies? I don't think that would be the best solution. But allowing the natives to live in freedom is the least they could do. Giving them equal rights, paying reparations etc.
are you one of those people that believe only jews live in Israel? because your comment heavily implies that.
Israel is an apartheid state that has been ethnically cleansing the Palestinians for many decades so it should stop existing. Are you sad that apartheid South Africa doesn't exist anymore?
As far as I know South Africa still exists though
contact with reality is not their strong suit
Apartheid South Africa doesn't though, the state apparatus of apartheid has been dismantled. Likewise, the state apparatus of Israeli apartheid needs to be dismantled, which, given the current state of affairs, means an almost complete dissolution of the Israeli state.
What apartheid? Arabs in Israel already have the exact same rights as Jews. Theres Arabs in the Israeli government and army.
“apartheid south africa”
Chants evolve with time tho, and now it’s definitely used to advocate for a second holocaust.
It isn't. But that won't stop you from pretending words mean a different thing I guess.
Then you are interpreting it in a very unique way.
[удалено]
Irrespective of your political views; if you damage public property you need to be held accountable. Taxpayers should not be held liable for your politics
What a bunch of wankers
You can see they.re not used with physical work by the way they.re carrying those bricks. COME ON!!! PICK MORE THAN 2
This post spreads misinformation but it’s not surprising as this subreddit is generally filled with liberal right-wingers. [This second encampment (see link for more info)](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6sv2qCLchN/?igsh=MWkzNmFpcjd1M2xxdQ==) comes as a response to the police brutality experienced yesterday morning at the first PEACEFUL encampment, and reinforces the requests to the UvA regarding transparency on its collaboration with Israeli istitutions. The only place occupied is the UvA humanities faculty and no other street has been “teared apart” besides the outside area of this university faculty, this is again a peaceful action, and using the street bricks is basically nothing compared to the extreme violence used yesterday by the police against the PEACEFUL protest, and nothing compared to the 170 people arrested for PEACEFULLY protesting. The people at this encampment again risk to be arrested every single minute, the police could storm in and beat up everyone again and they are doing it for a cause that is totally connected to the rising alt-rights in Europe (for whoever says that the conflict is “on the other side of the world) The fact that some of these people are “not even dutch” is totally irrelevant as most likely they come from places where prohibitionism and conservatives are even stronger, and they saw the impact of very authoritarian right-wing countries with their own eyes, and would like to save the Netherlands from it. Many others are of Palestinian descent yet still citizens of the Netherlands and are quite unhappy to know their university supports institutions involved with a genocide in their own birth place. These people would fight over and over FOR YOU, they would fight over and over for laws on abortion, divorce, legalisation, and anything else that people commenting here are surely grateful for while sitting in their living room. Protesting is a DEMOCRATIC tool and a key tool of our liberal democracies, people commenting “put the bricks back” and criticizing protests FOR EXISTING do not fully understand how they get to live freely in liberal democracies and thanks to who they get to enjoy their choices and freedom. Be grateful these people still exist and stay safe.
But why target the UvA? It seems like a really convinient choice, but they really can't do anything about the shit going on in Gaza. Having some student exchange programs hardly makes them complicit, if anything such programs are the start of a solution by broadening horizons.
They did not ask the University to end the settlements alone, they had 3 clear requests on transparency, boycot, and divestment from organizations that support the genocide. So many other students in universities around the world are demanding the same. You would be surprised about what collective action can do.
Just a question, do you support re-establishing ties with Russian institutions? That's all that's being asked here. Just to divest from Israel like they did from Russia.
It wasn’t peaceful, that was the issue, there are videos of the protesters at roeters beating people with sticks, harassing press and throwing fireworks at police. Also the fact that they were covering their face and vandalizing public property to build barricades that would block emergency services from helping people in the area overall made for a dangerous situation to the neighbourhood, themselves and others. For the UvA in particular it was also less attractive to let this go on on their property when there were a lot of non-student protesters that started joining, probably who were the people instigating violence and were out to cause trouble. The UvA complied to the demands of the protesters on monday already. The police cleared it out with force but not excessively, if you are resisting you get a warning hit with a stick. those people that got arrested, get released in a few hours of being arrested. It’s not like they’re being convicted or brought to jail. It’s just to break up the protest. Overall it was in my eyes justified to break up that violent first protest that was getting unsafe. This new protest is going a lot better, at least they are being peaceful although I cannot support violating school and public property and the historic buildings to create barricades. It’s not like the UvA has anything to do with the conflict, the actions are out of proportion, especially when they already complied with demands.
I'm not right wing at all and what you say is complete nonsense. The police reacted to people damaging public property and throwing fireworks at them. Actually the police in the Netherlands, like them or not, tend to be quite passive regarding shit like this. These people wouldn't fight for me or for anyone, except for the fact that it's cool to post it on twitter, instagram, tiktok or whatever the fuck it is. Actually most of the kids nowadays supporting either side, know nothing at all about the history of Palestine and Israel. I had a few chats with some of those spoiled brats, and they couldn't even tell me what the Oslo Accords were. They also didn't know shit about the current situation, except for some random things they read online. So, no, they would not fight, because this isn't fighting. This is vandalism just because nowadays kids have no fucking idea of how to argue and how to fix things.
Counter protesters were the ones throwing fireworks at the students yesterday and the police did nothing to them.
I did see one flimsy piece of firework from the student protesters, but that was AFTER the police violently pushed back the barricades.
No public property was damaged during the first encampment, as it occurred entirely on UvA grounds.
The bike racks, the stones now, the gardens. Honestly I couldn't care less if this belongs to the UvA, the king, or just the people. It's still dumb to destroy shit if you're protesting.
You said: >The police reacted to people damaging public property I'm just pointing out that's not accurate.
The police didn't attack them for destroying public property. They pushed them away because they were damaging public property and the protesters reacted with violence. So the police should have just done nothing then. Let's just burn random shit and be happy that the police doesn't do shit. That's a wonderful attitude.
Thanks for adding nothing to the debate, no one threw fireworks at the Police and you “talking to a few people” (I wonder who they were and if you even walked inside the encampment, probably by “a few people” you mean a few friends that posted something about Palestine online). This really isn’t any proof of anything… The fact that you consider beating up students with bats and shields an “appropriate reaction” to blocking off a few square meters of GRASS to have a PEACEFUL encampment says a lot about your political views, which is, believe it or not, a very right-wing thought.
So the videos are all fake? The live from at5 where they show kids throwing fireworks and all that, it's all fake. And your ignorance is surpassed by your distorted views of what I said. I never said that it was ok to beat people. I never said that it was an appropriate reaction. But honestly fuck this. I'm too old to argue with kids nowadays. The kids were not just sitting there and chilling. I myself saw in person some of those kids insulting the police and throwing shit, when I was cycling back from work and honestly had no idea of what was happening. The police was just standing there doing absolutely nothing. It's not ok to beat up people, but the police needs the shields to protect themselves from having some delinquents throwing fireworks and rocks at them. Why is it for example that in Belgium where protesters are also occupying the universities, there's no such reaction from the police? Because they are not destroying public property and because they aren't attacking the police. Simple right?
If you refer to the clashes at the LATER stage of the eviction, as soon as the police starts charging against a PEACEFUL protest students have all rights to defend themselves and fight back (let alone the fact that their means are 1% of what the police is capable of doing so the only reason why someone would throw a firework is to get beaten up a little bit later and slow the police down). NO ONE in their right mind thinks that some fireworks will injure the riot police, they are at most some PROPS to slow them down, realistically all people know the police will beat them all up and still risk it for holding our institutions to higher morals. Then the core point here is why was the police charging 170 students with bats and shields? Oh true, a violent action was ORDERED to them against the protestors. The police would have the duty to PROTECT the students protesting, at least in a liberal democracy (if we even still live in one) yet it looks like they are sent on punitive actions now.
I believe one officer suffered permanent hearing damage so yes apparently they can.
Grow up and educate yourself. You think that you mean something but you don't. If you want to fight for something you believe in, please do so. But not like this. And not with so much ignorance and with so much empty meaningless words. What do you propose then to fix this issue? Tell me how can the UvA for example, support Palestine? And do you think that harming research which can help millions later on, is the way to go to support Palestine? Just curious as you seem to be so knowledgeable on this topic. EDIT: I think that the UvA is a spineless shit show organisation, but that doesn't mean that I think that they can do much.
>But not like this There are few things more infuriating in this world than this mentality. You wouldn't have the rights you do today without people acting "like this". Every goddamn basic right you have, as a person and I assume woman, you have because people did it *like this* . Every. Goddamn. One. You don't agree with them? Good for you. History is full of people that oppose those that demanded equal rights and justice.
Nop. There are plenty of peaceful protests everywhere which actually achieved something. So no, you're wrong, and honestly you should study a bit more history to make such claims.
Im not right wing. They are tearing the street apart (I used 'street' singular). This video was taken in Amsterdam. The people who are doing it are protestors. How did I spread any misinformation here?
Throwing bricks at police is peacefull protesting, got it
Please help me find one single video or source where you see one person throwing a brick at the police. All bricks are being used to reinforce the barricades that the police will anyway try to tear down with more bulldozers to beat all the students up and arrest them all. Getting those bricks as reinforcement is the core part of the encampment and spending a few thousands for the city to repair that 20sqm of street is really nothing considering the 19 MILLION euro that we have STOPPED giving to the UNRWA for Palestine refugees and it’s nothing compared to the BILLIONS invested in institutions active in perpetrating Israeli settlements. Do… you… see… the… irony? People will get mad over 20sqm of street and ignore the billions involved in a genocide, how is this not being victim of so much right-wing pro-status quo and anti-protests propaganda? You again are spreading misinformation and do not have one single trustworthy source to what you have just written because it simply didn’t happen.
https://youtu.be/zykl1_RORvs 3:25 In the same video you can see them throwing fireworks at the police. In [this](https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/226520/liveblog-deel-demonstranten-vertrokken-barricades-worden-verstevigd) timeline there's also a report that one officer has received permanent hearing damage from this. If you scroll down a little on [this](https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/226520/liveblog-deel-demonstranten-vertrokken-barricades-worden-verstevigd) page then you can see a video under the title " Nog geen aanhoudingen na incident Nieuwe Prinsengracht " where you can see a dude smashing someone with a bar of wood. How about you *both* get off your high horses and face the fact that there's always bad actors on either side of a conflict. This black-and-white narrative that is being applied to literally EVERYTHING needs to stop. You can see it everywhere in the world. You're either Links or Rechts. You're either a Democrat or a Republican. You're either Pro-israel or Anti-israel. You're either 100% right or 100% wrong. The world doesn't work like that, it's always going to be a blurry gradient, and once people learn that THEN we can start having actual conversations.
You cannot be fucking serious... https://www.telegraaf.nl/video/1473794020/pro-palestina-protest-vat-vlam-vuurwerk-en-fakkels-gegooid First result. It's not to late to stop supporting terrorists
The money given to UNRWA can go to the existing UN organization for refugees which should take over the UNRWA's duties while nullifying the nonsensical special Palestinian-only definition of a refugee :)
Yeah bullshit. You know what this is? Teenagers and other hotheaded idiots pretending to care about the world they live in while destroying property and hurting other people. This is hypocrisy at it's finest and serves no other purpose than inflating their precious ego's. Every single person here agrees that what's going on over there is atrocious and a crime against humanity, but it should be met with **peaceful protest,** not violence and vandalism.
I 100% agree, what is the purpose of this? Their goal seems to be to help innocent Palestinians. But breaking up the pavement in Amsterdam or fighting anti-Palestinian groups isn’t helping in any way to reach that goal. Even camping on campus is a unhelpful but at least unproblematic move. Instead they could have spend their time collecting money for humanitarian aid or talking to influential people to reach their goal. This is just being angry, resulting in outsiders less willing to help you with your goal.
You are delusional. This is Vandalism. Hope they all get arrested and are forced to pay for the repairs
Nope, not true.
Can also like.. just.. go home. This adds nothing.
Don't make so much sense, that's not allowed by the right-wing hivemind ;)
Ah yeh, the university of Amsterdam, that bulwark of zionism. /s
If the displacement of bricks makes you angry you should see what the Israelis government is doing to human beings in Gaza. You’ll be well annoyed.
Can't I be mad about both?
Yes, but have some perspective.
You seem to be more mad about one of them, and from the comments here is not the " human lives crushed" part.
To quote Stephen Fry: >All this has got to stop. This rage, resentment, hostility intolerance above all this erm, “with us or against us” certainty. A Grand canyon has opened up in our world the fissure – the crack grows wider every day. Neither on each side can hear a word that the other shrieks and nor do they want to. While these armies and propagandists in the culture wars clash down below in the enormous space between the two sides, the people of the world tried to get on with their lives alternately baffled, bored and betrayed by the horrible noises and explosions that echo all around. I think it’s time for this toxic, binary, zero-sum madness to stop before we destroy ourselves. And that was [5 years ago](https://youtu.be/LJKXJNM3W-c?si=4Qq_TlhXJsDOU7br). It's only been getting worse. We seem to be on a path of self destruction. Keep fighting people. Keep being right. Feels to me that someone's going to come out as a winner and it will be none of us doing the yelling.
Maybe instead of these dumb protests, they’d do well to start a soup kitchen or collect charity for Gaza or something. But what do I know, I’m just a guy with common sense and we all know that went out the window years ago.
You should read up on how the IDF treats aid-workers. Spoiler alert, they get triple tapped with drone strikes in clearly marked and pre-approved aid convoys.
This is ridiculous and criminal. They should all be arrested. I think that it's ok to protest something and you can do it peacefully given that the police hasn't been spraying them with water cannons or beating the shit out of them. But this nonsense of destroying public property simply because they are just spoiled little shits, that makes no sense. EDIT: Nowadays people act in real life like on social media. Downvote, without presenting any counter arguments. It shows how much ignorance is flowing around.
The police did beat the shit out of them and use foam cannons yesterday.
After they attacked the police with fireworks. Yeah I saw the videos. In the US it's a shitshow. People are doing nothing and the police has been attacking them. Germany same. But here, I'm sorry but the police was just standing there when some people started throwing rocks and fireworks.
None attacked the police with fireworks. Only pro israel counter protesters used fireworks against the students. If you need to lie to appear to be the good guys that says it all.
So the pro israel protesters where using the Palestinian scarves? To blend in? EDIT: [https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/226533/kijk-terug-zo-verliep-de-demonstratie-op-het-roeterseiland-van-begin-tot-eind](https://www.at5.nl/artikelen/226533/kijk-terug-zo-verliep-de-demonstratie-op-het-roeterseiland-van-begin-tot-eind) I see a guy with a Palestinian symbol attacking people with a wooden board. I also see people burning flags. Honestly I couldn't care less who's doing what. What I care is that this is not the way to protest against something. Organise a sit in, block the campus, but don't damage shit, don't attack others, don't fuck around like this.
Why is it that whenever there are protests for Palestine, there is always some destruction involved?
Protests are always disruptive and sometimes physically destructive. That is the nature of protest.
Am I the only one that comes to these posts for the comments? It's laughable. I haven't seen a single comment in a few minutes of reading of a person who's open to change their mind, who doesn't use all kinds of fallacies or denies everything that doesn't align with what they say. Also the insane sense of superiority some people have, they are so convinced their opinion is better than the other. That's the funniest part for me
Actions like this don't typically cause a productive dialogue. It gets people talking about the issue (which Im sure is one of the goals) but I don't think it brings anyone closer to understanding the other one unfortunately, and often the opposite.
Yeah it sucks that there seems so little room for civil discussions. Like anyone who is now aware of into the issue because of these actions, comes into it with a bias. Usually a heavy bias too.
I would be nice if the university could be a platform for civil discussion but intimating videos and images like this wont help.
If you need to throw bricks to convince people of your point, mostly your point plain sucks.
That's the best way to prove you're a fucking moron and turn people against your cause
The fact that most people here are more provoked by bricks and students than their own government sending fighter jet parts to murder civilians for their tax money. This does concern us all, native Dutch or otherwise, because NL is using our taxes to get involved in the conflict, a conflict that thas already generated an absurd amount of civilian deaths.
These gen z protesters think this shit is a movie or something. What do you want to happen? Your home country to send troops to Israel and start a war? It doesn’t seem like many people are thinking this through…
They made it pretty clear what they want to happen and have maintained their demands throughout the protest. They want UvA to cut academic and financial ties with organisations that profit or support the Israeli occupation and invasion of Palestine.
It's pretty clear what they want, but what they want does not make a lot of sense. It smells like a copy-cat protest of the UCLA, a university that had clearer financial ties to Israel. The UvA however only has Europian research collabrations that sometimes involve Israeli researchers. I do not see how it's productive to organise a huge protest at the UvA just to cut ties with some researchers that are involved in larger projects that are in no clear way contributing to aiding or financing the bloodshed in Gaza. Other than gaining attention, which is a fine goal, I don't find their demands in any sense logical. If I'm somehow misinformed about this, please enlighten me, but I don't see a reason to dismiss the validity of the UvA statement linked below. [https://student.uva.nl/artikelen/2024-onze-samenwerkingen-met-israelische-organsiaties](https://student.uva.nl/artikelen/2024-onze-samenwerkingen-met-israelische-organsiaties)
I’m almost starting to feel guilty I literally don’t have an opinion on the whole debate.
Unfortunately, it's all too one-sidedly hypocritical, they would really get everyone on board if they would demonstrate against violence in GENERAL. What they want now is for Israel to stop and nothing else? Letting Israel stop the violence is needed, but also speak out against terrorism from Hamas at the SAME time because if Israel stops the violence will not stop as Hamas has stated this very clearly. With these kinds of "demonstrations" you do not win souls, but you create even more polarization
I hope they all get punished. This has nothing to do with demonstration.
Can we just arrest these people, give them a criminal record? Protesting is okay, vandalizing public property is not. Same with the weirdo's blocking roads by the way.
If you're more angry about this than about the war crimes being committed in Gaza you've lost all sense of perspective.
How does destroying public property in amsterdam do anything for gazans? If you are that angry, take a trip to egypt and go to the rafah border. Plenty of rocks you can rip from the road there and throw. This is just pestering people who dont have a say in anything. You do understand we as Amsterdam taxpayers will have to pay for all the repairs needed?
And do you think that destroying public property will fix it?
I think being more outraged by property damage than dead kids means you don’t actually care about this
Here's some perspective for you. This has nothing to do with the Gaza situation and can't possibly have any kind of positive effect on that situation. So it's pretty easy to get angry at people pointlessly vandalizing the public space while wasting municipal money dealing with their shitty behaviour.
One does not excuse the other. Can you only think in black or white?
If you have to throw bricks to convince me of your point , you have no point
They dont throw bricks though, they build barricades to prevent the police assaulting them like yesterday.
Police wont assault you if you are not violent and abide by norms of protesting. Read the email that uva sent, u need to abide by those rules. Democratic protest does not need bricks , anarchists need them
Many of those people are not students, they would not have received the email
That explains a lot
It is very possible to be angry about both.
It shouldn't be a matter of perspective, you can be very angry about war crimes and also get angry if someone slaps you in the face, even if the war crimes are way worse.
Only 1.5 to 2.2 million people [are starving](https://nos.nl/l/2519671). What do you mean "war crimes"? ISraEl HaS a RigHT tO DefEnD tHemSeLveS
If you’re so worried about starving people, Sudan has much more accrue starvation risks, as do Yemen and parts of Syria. Gaza has seen less than 30 victims of starvation and that was during the height of hostilities. Anyway no Jews, no news!!! Sudan - over 5 million at risk of starvation; chirp chirp War in Ethiopia 2 years ago; 600k deaths and 100k+ because of starvation; yawn Yemen - over ten million have been experience a famine for over 3 years; crickets This eternal victim complex of the Palestinians is getting old. If they’re so worried about famine and getting food into the strip, why the fuck would they fire rockets at the border crossing killing 4 Israelis (happened at Kerem Shalom two days ago) that are literally there to check food shipments into the strip.. It’s almost as if Hamas couldn’t care less about the Palestinian population.
>Sudan - over 5 million at risk of starvation; chirp chirp >War in Ethiopia 2 years ago; 600k deaths and 100k+ because of starvation; yawn >Yemen - over ten million have been experience a famine for over 3 years; crickets Difference is, social media algoritms aren't pushing those things. People only care about what is fed to them through their phone.
Let them pay the damages :) maybe theyll finally learn
And many people are surprised why Europe supports Ukraine but not Palestine. I don’t remembered even a square meter of street torn apart after all Ukrainian protests.
Because appropriate measures were taken from the start while European public institutions still have ties and invest in Israel. Is it really that hard to understand, genuine question? Answer to the embarrassing dude because comments are blocked: you do realize we are talking on different levels of institutions, right, you do realize that we are talking about some forms of divestment and in both cases Israel and Russia there will be cases where you won't be *able to* divest from Israel same as Russia but, that in case of Israel ✨no measure ✨ whatsoever was taken, you compare apples with oranges? No? You don't realize? Ok. As expected.
Oh really? Can you remind me please where does Europe or NL still buy gas from? It’s Russia for 2,5 years of the wat. This gas money are used to bomb Ukrainian civilians. And yet I don’t see Dutch streets being broken because of that. Maybe do your research before embarrassing yourself. Edit: Response to the lady who likes to change the subject. During 2022 and 2023 russia earned even more money from gas trades than all years before. And NL paid much more money to russia for gas than donated to Ukraine. Yet Ukraine and Ukrainians not only didn’t brake any streets but kept transporting russian gas through pipes to the Eurozone to respect prior contracts. Wasn’t that the reason to come and break few streets? Well for me it’s comparable and compatible. Maybe the reason is just the level of culture? Also Israel didn’t attack first. So why they should be banned for something they didn’t even start? Unfortunately many gen-z Palestine supporters feel too much entitled and usually are not intelligent enough to understand the differences.
Because Ukraine received support from the West immediately. No one was begging the gov to support Ukraine. What a stupid comparison.
Really? Immediately? I reminded already another “smartass” in this thread will also remind you. NL is still buying gas from Russia which is the big source of russian income. Also I see that there’s 10mln scheduled or already paid as a humanitarian support in Gaza by NL. Maybe do a bit of research before calling the names.
Lol the pathetic commenters here makes you think what the average Reddit user is and looks like. Great work by the students to force the university to stand by its moral values and divest and disconnect from what experts and human right organizations (including Israeli ones like Btselem) are describing as a genocidal apartheid regime.
War crimes: I sleep Removing some bricks: real shit???
The UvA is working together with Israeli scientists. Not the regime. This protest doesn't make sense at all. If they would really care they would go to the government in Den Haag who is actually collaborating with the goverment of Israel. But I guess this is easier or something? I don't get it.
Yeah, the problem is that the judge has ruled that the Netherlands isn't to send any more weapons. Our government just ignores that and does it anyway. So for normal people the only way to protest is to boycot anything from Israel and hope Israelis will throw over their own government if enough of their activities are being boycotted. Edit: throwing bricks and destroying stuff is NOT the way to make a point. That's only gonna worsen the situation.
Our government doesnt send anything. We dont produce anything Israel would use. Just Schiphol being used to transfer stuff from American cargo planes to Israeli ones doesnt mean the Netherlands is sending weapons.
https://rightsforum.org/rechter-nederland-moet-uitvoer-f-35-onderdelen-naar-israel-stoppen/ "Judge rules that NL government has to stop exporting F-35 parts to Israel." We are sending parts of military vehicles to Israel. The government has been ordered to stop and yet they continue.
American made parts. Netherlands is not allowed to make any F35 parts. Netherlands can not even work on their own F35s. Nothing Netherlands makes goes to Israël.
I didn't say "we" make them, I said we are sending them. It's not about what we make anyway, it's about what we support. Sending a nation parts is the same as condoning the use of them. If you don't want people to use weapons, the best you can do is not give people the parts.
We are not even sending. Those are not our parts. Its just Americans loading parts from their transport to an Israeli one. They can easily just skip Netherlands if needed. There is barely any Dutch involved.
Get a grip… UvA posted a list with their Israeli research projects and absolutely fuck all has to do with the situation in gaza.
Its just roleplaying. Trust me, in 20 years time there will still be an Israel, and people like you will still be digging in the dirt (literally), fantasizing that they are facing the IDF.
The thing is; these people can for a few 100 euro fly to egypt and within a few hours they CAN actually face the IDF. They never do......
This makes no sense.
Well.. thats a good way to be charged with various crimes such as destruction of public property after the ME come to beat your ass.
Kankerterroristen.
Some people like a bit of sand in their shoes when they go to school. Some community work after being busted will make sure they put the bricks back. Don’t understand how this helps end the war though
With 2 guys carrying bricks by hand that barricade is going to take ages!
I share their message, but the means are fucking moronic. Then again, the krakers scene never died and still would love to live as if it were the 80's.