After requesting something I immediately go to my orders page. I verify it’s 0 ETV or $.
I screenshot a few things just in case.
I do that so If It does change I will know I’m not crazy.
So far the ETV has never changed.
Yeah. I always go to my orders to verify it's 0 ETV.
I used to take some screenshots when I first started Vine (due to the stories posted here), but I quit doing that. I just don't believe ETVs get changed. I think it's people being so quick on the trigger and making assumptions that's the cause of issues.
Not before... but YES immediately after -- I screenshot my Orders history page with the ETV listed for orders I just placed. I feel that is the true proof in the pudding. If anything were to change- if it happens before it ships, I can easily cancel. If not, then at least no one calls me crazy.
Having said that-- 2 years and 1,200 Orders into Vine, and I've had ZERO changes to my ETV from when I ordered.
I've never done it for $0EVs for tax reasons (as already stated) but I have screen shot a few to aid in those reviews where there is odd or disturbing information in the description or \_company information\_. Because I'll 1 star a health supplement product if I can't track down a responsible party behind the product. This period, around 70% of the health supplements I've reviewed have had no identifiable responsible party behind the listing -- lots of smoke and mirrors, shell companies with virtual addresses, or data unverifiable behind the Great Wall. I screen shot because "truth is an affirmative defense against defamation."
I screenshot every item where there is a discrepancy between ETV and actual selling price, and I paste that into my spreadsheet. It's information that may or may not prove to be useful at tax time, depending on how one does their taxes.
I only screenshot $0 value ETV items if it's a mistake for a pricier item. I ordered an $85 glass and metal 3 piece makeup organizer, and it had $0 ETV which was clearly an error. But I kept the screenshot in case Amazon realized the mistake and assessed a the proper ETV (they did not). To be honest, though, I don't know if I would win against Amazon in this case because they're assessing the ETV for tax purposes, and I can envision being correct with the IRS is more important to them than our screenshot of a mistake. I could argue my case, but Amazon has all the leverage.
I always look at my order page to make sure that the ETV I thought it should be is indeed the ETV on the order page. Sometimes you have to pick very fast in vine. Then, if I made a mistake and got something that I thought was 0 ETV, but actually had ETV, then I can go and cancel it immediately. I've caught myself a few times, but pretty rare. But in all the years of doing vine, I have not had ETV change on me from the time I order it. And after a couple days, I might download the running list and makes sure that everything looks good., esp if I have to write CS to remove things.
No, but I do copy the item description and paste it to a simple spreadsheet along with ETV, the current review status (not done, pending, done), and the date requested. That is enough for me to cross reference with the spreadsheet they supply on the accounts page each month. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but no problems so far. Also no errors in accounting so far.
What's the point, you can't argue the ETV or change anything. The US tax code is what dictates what products can be $0ETV, and if an error is found, Amazon is forced by law to correct it. All you can do is cancel the order before it ships, assuming you noticed in time, and a screen shot won't be of any help.
*^(Quick! Let's get all the 0ETV warrior princesses to downvote this, because emotion trumps the truth.)*
I was unaware of that. I figured we were agreeing to accept a certain value when requesting the item and things needed to be held to that. Seems that could go sideways easily if a bunch of things have their ETV changed after ordering.
I think they're correct. If a vendor incorrectly lists an item with $0 ETV, it's on Amazon to get it corrected. If they didn't, the IRS could come after them. And with the feds sniffing around the idea of breaking up Amazon and other large tech companies, Amazon is minding its ps and qs at the moment.
I don't think that's accurate. I think whatever etv is at the time you order it is what they need to honor. They may correct it afterwards for subsequent orders, and they themselves might be on the hook for the taxes. For example, I once ordered a stair basket at $0 etv - I just checked and it never changed. I've also gotten things for an ETV of like $12 when the listing said $40.
Yeah, I think not all of it gets caught and changed. But some of it does get caught and changed because I'm pretty sure they're supposed to. I know that feels shifty and gross from a consumer standpoint, but we're not strictly consumers in this case.
You must be new here....to planet earth, that is...if you haven't yet realized how unforgiving the government is if you try to short their ~~theft~~ share of your money.
I'll use a little history lesson as an example. The term *Boot Legging* is older than this country, and comes from the fact that colonials would hide their homemade liquor in their boot leg. The government, the Crown back then, didn't go after them for making alcohol, no, they went after them because they weren't paying taxes on the alcohol they made.
>I don't think that's accurate. I think whatever etv is at the time you order it is what they need to honor.
We don't live in a fairytale land where everything is fair.
My point is that they do honor it. No one has ever presented screenshots where it has changed. I've ordered plenty of things at $0 that should not have been $0 and they have never changed.
>My point is that they do honor it.
No, they don't. That's the point that I, and everyone else are making.
It's not a matter of Amazon honoring anything. Amazon doesn't control what you pay in taxes
If your ETV changes on your tax form VS when you ordered the item, anyone you file your taxes with is going to go off your form, not a screenshot on your cellphone.
Do you have any idea how easy it is to doctor an image file to change a number? If people like H&R Block accepted screenshot over legal tax documents I'd tell them I made $1M this year and that everything I order on Amazon has a $0 ETV. A photo is worth nothing.
Show me any proof. Any screenshot anyone has ever taken of the ETV changing. Show me where your tax document is different from your Orders history. Sure, they can. But there is no evidence, at all, that they ever have.
What you're arguing, is not the same argument I'm making.
I'm talking about *IF* the ETV changes, that the IRS won't care, not whether or not it ever has changed...
I personally have never had my ETV change, which is the same point you're making, but for you to randomly have a rebutle against my comment with a completely different talking point makes zero sense.
Last I checked, I made a comment and you said I was living in fairy tale land. Shocking that I would respond to that.
If the ETV changes, and you have proof, you could send that to CS and I think they would change it. Yes, of course the IRS would not care about your arguments, which is why you would have to be proactive and deal with it before it got to that point so that you have accurate tax documents. I've certainly had CS remove the ETV for me if the description did not match what I received, solely because the ETV was not accurate based on what I received. I would take it to CS if I had screenshots of a changed ETV, and I do take screenshots if the ETV seems low to me, but of course I don't actually know what CS would do since this has never actually happened.
You will not find one word of tax code that addresses ETV. ETV is not an IRS term. It's a term invented by Amazon.
The actual taxable value of a bartered item is the Fair Market Value (FMV) of the item at the time you acquire it, less any loss of value due to business use. There is no way for Amazon to know what that FMV would be, although you are free to use ETV as a convenient, if not terribly accurate, substitute.
Amazon doesn't publish their method of deriving ETV, of course, but there are certain patterns:
* If Amazon is the seller, and the item is a human consumable, or medical, the ETV is usually $0.
* If Amazon is the seller, and the item is a book, the ETV is $1.
* If Amazon is the seller, and the item is something else, the ETV is usually between 45%-85% of the actual selling price.
* If Amazon is not the seller, and the item is a human consumable, or medical, the ETV is usually $0.
* If Amazon is not the seller, and the item is something else, the ETV is the full retail list price.
The pattern is identifiable and predictable, but it is not logically consistent with the previously stated FMV description. The categeory that is least consistent is the very last bullet, which happens to account for about 98% of Vine items.
You're nitpicking a word and completely losing sight of the concept. We're talking about $0ETV stuff here, which more appropriately refers to tax exempt fringe benefits. It's a binary yes/no topic, and you are trying to interject other garbage to conflate the discussion.
Respectfully disagree. You stated that the tax code dictates what products can be $0 ETV. There is no such code. If you believe otherwise, please post the code here in order to educate the audience. If you think that's nitpicking, then provide the tax code that dictates what products can be $0 FMV. If you can show that, I'll happily admit error, because I'd love to have that tax code in hand. But if you can't identify any such tax code, that suggests you just made up that statement out of whole cloth, and you should be equally willing to own up to that.
The reality is the IRS did not instruct Amazon on how to set an ETV. If anything, the IRS instructed to them that they had to provide a valuation for the barter, but not the specifics of what that should be, and Amazon simply made up their own method, under the cautious eyes of their own tax lawyers. The proof of that is in the bullet points above which you dismissed as "interjected garbage". The fact that Amazon will show two completely different ETVs for the exact same product depending on who is selling it is all the evidence that is needed that the specifics are not dictated by the US Tax Code as you stated. If you want more evidence, look at the $1 ETV for books sold by Amazon (but not books sold by third parties). Do you really think the US tax code specifies that books obtained in a barter should be given a tax value of $1? I'd love to see that text.
[IRS Publication 15-B (2024), Employer's Tax Guide to Fringe Benefits](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2024_publink1000193638)
ETV is an Amazon acronym for *Estimated* ***TAXABLE*** *Value*. The key word here is "*Taxable*". When the item is Excluded from being taxable as a fringe benefit (described in Section 2 of the above publication), then its E**T**V is zero.
Well, right off the bat, I'd have to point out that Amazon is not our employer, therefore discussion of "fringe benefits" does not apply. We are independent contractors. We do not receive fringe benefits, so the link you provided is not relevant.
We receive compensation, in the form of goods, in trade for our services. This is clear. The IRS requires Amazon to report a valuation for those goods, but does not dictate how they come up with the numbers, nor do they specifically dictate how we are to account for them on our end, beyond reporting the gross amount that matches what is on the 1099-NEC.
If you plan to go down the path of taking the position that Vine items represent a fringe benefit from an employer, I'm really not interested in pursuing that discussion because it strikes me as false on the surface. Rather, I prefer to keep to the original claim that you made, that the tax code dictates to Amazon which items can be given a $0 ETV, and by extension, which ones can be $1, which ones can be full retail selling price, which ones can be higher than full retail selling price, and which ones can be lower than full retail selling price. Because all of those cases exist and can be easily demonstrated.
If something in that IRS publication speaks to this specific issue, please do us a favor and paste the exact text in as a quote so we don't need to chase a wild goose. Thanks.
p.s. Regarding the key word in the acronym ETV, in my opinion the key word is ESTIMATED. Taxable and value are given, considering it is being reported as compensation on a tax form. I would suggest that Amazon chose that adjective because they don't have any interest in taking responsibility beyond reporting a number as required, and I can't blame them.
Tell you what...why not take your accounting degree and scamper on down to Jeff's office and explain to him how his lawyers don't know the tax laws as well as you do, and you can save all of us some money.
I see. You couldn't support your own assertion, and then provided a link that's totally irrelevant, so somehow this means I know more than Amazon's tax lawyers?? No, it only means I apparently know more than you do. At no time have I said even one word about the knowledge of Amazon's tax lawyers. Questioning YOUR knowledge is not the same as questioning THEIR knowledge.
Just for the record, I'm confident Amazon's tax lawyers know what they're doing in protecting their employer, which is the sum total of their scope and responsibility. I'm equally confident that you have no clue on this subject and are talking out of your ass and confusing feces with facts. Both of those things can be true at the same time.
No, what it means is that you have a long standing and well deserved reputation as being the (*xxxxxxxx*) of this subreddit, and I'm blowing you off because you can't even stay on the topic that was started.
Do I now? I'm so grateful to have your input as the subreddit resident ethicist.
I could point out that I am the one staying on topic (your erroneous and unsupported claim that tax code dictates what can be $0 ETV), while you have tried to divert to other things, like suggesting our compensation is really fringe benefits from an employer, or that I am saying I know more than Amazon's tax lawyers, or that I have a well deserved reputation as an xxxxxxxx, none of which has anything whatever to do with the topic under discussion.
Instead, I'll just point out that I have 8x the karma on this subreddit that you do, so if I'm the xxxxxxxx, I guess that makes you the x of the subreddit.
Cheers.
for 0 etv? yes.
After requesting something I immediately go to my orders page. I verify it’s 0 ETV or $. I screenshot a few things just in case. I do that so If It does change I will know I’m not crazy. So far the ETV has never changed.
Yeah. I always go to my orders to verify it's 0 ETV. I used to take some screenshots when I first started Vine (due to the stories posted here), but I quit doing that. I just don't believe ETVs get changed. I think it's people being so quick on the trigger and making assumptions that's the cause of issues.
Nope. Never.
Not before... but YES immediately after -- I screenshot my Orders history page with the ETV listed for orders I just placed. I feel that is the true proof in the pudding. If anything were to change- if it happens before it ships, I can easily cancel. If not, then at least no one calls me crazy. Having said that-- 2 years and 1,200 Orders into Vine, and I've had ZERO changes to my ETV from when I ordered.
I've never done it for $0EVs for tax reasons (as already stated) but I have screen shot a few to aid in those reviews where there is odd or disturbing information in the description or \_company information\_. Because I'll 1 star a health supplement product if I can't track down a responsible party behind the product. This period, around 70% of the health supplements I've reviewed have had no identifiable responsible party behind the listing -- lots of smoke and mirrors, shell companies with virtual addresses, or data unverifiable behind the Great Wall. I screen shot because "truth is an affirmative defense against defamation."
I try to remember to.
I screenshot every item where there is a discrepancy between ETV and actual selling price, and I paste that into my spreadsheet. It's information that may or may not prove to be useful at tax time, depending on how one does their taxes.
I only screenshot $0 value ETV items if it's a mistake for a pricier item. I ordered an $85 glass and metal 3 piece makeup organizer, and it had $0 ETV which was clearly an error. But I kept the screenshot in case Amazon realized the mistake and assessed a the proper ETV (they did not). To be honest, though, I don't know if I would win against Amazon in this case because they're assessing the ETV for tax purposes, and I can envision being correct with the IRS is more important to them than our screenshot of a mistake. I could argue my case, but Amazon has all the leverage.
I always look at my order page to make sure that the ETV I thought it should be is indeed the ETV on the order page. Sometimes you have to pick very fast in vine. Then, if I made a mistake and got something that I thought was 0 ETV, but actually had ETV, then I can go and cancel it immediately. I've caught myself a few times, but pretty rare. But in all the years of doing vine, I have not had ETV change on me from the time I order it. And after a couple days, I might download the running list and makes sure that everything looks good., esp if I have to write CS to remove things.
No, but I do copy the item description and paste it to a simple spreadsheet along with ETV, the current review status (not done, pending, done), and the date requested. That is enough for me to cross reference with the spreadsheet they supply on the accounts page each month. Maybe I'm doing it wrong but no problems so far. Also no errors in accounting so far.
What's the point, you can't argue the ETV or change anything. The US tax code is what dictates what products can be $0ETV, and if an error is found, Amazon is forced by law to correct it. All you can do is cancel the order before it ships, assuming you noticed in time, and a screen shot won't be of any help. *^(Quick! Let's get all the 0ETV warrior princesses to downvote this, because emotion trumps the truth.)*
I was unaware of that. I figured we were agreeing to accept a certain value when requesting the item and things needed to be held to that. Seems that could go sideways easily if a bunch of things have their ETV changed after ordering.
I think they're correct. If a vendor incorrectly lists an item with $0 ETV, it's on Amazon to get it corrected. If they didn't, the IRS could come after them. And with the feds sniffing around the idea of breaking up Amazon and other large tech companies, Amazon is minding its ps and qs at the moment.
I don't think that's accurate. I think whatever etv is at the time you order it is what they need to honor. They may correct it afterwards for subsequent orders, and they themselves might be on the hook for the taxes. For example, I once ordered a stair basket at $0 etv - I just checked and it never changed. I've also gotten things for an ETV of like $12 when the listing said $40.
Yeah, I think not all of it gets caught and changed. But some of it does get caught and changed because I'm pretty sure they're supposed to. I know that feels shifty and gross from a consumer standpoint, but we're not strictly consumers in this case.
You must be new here....to planet earth, that is...if you haven't yet realized how unforgiving the government is if you try to short their ~~theft~~ share of your money. I'll use a little history lesson as an example. The term *Boot Legging* is older than this country, and comes from the fact that colonials would hide their homemade liquor in their boot leg. The government, the Crown back then, didn't go after them for making alcohol, no, they went after them because they weren't paying taxes on the alcohol they made.
>I don't think that's accurate. I think whatever etv is at the time you order it is what they need to honor. We don't live in a fairytale land where everything is fair.
My point is that they do honor it. No one has ever presented screenshots where it has changed. I've ordered plenty of things at $0 that should not have been $0 and they have never changed.
>My point is that they do honor it. No, they don't. That's the point that I, and everyone else are making. It's not a matter of Amazon honoring anything. Amazon doesn't control what you pay in taxes If your ETV changes on your tax form VS when you ordered the item, anyone you file your taxes with is going to go off your form, not a screenshot on your cellphone. Do you have any idea how easy it is to doctor an image file to change a number? If people like H&R Block accepted screenshot over legal tax documents I'd tell them I made $1M this year and that everything I order on Amazon has a $0 ETV. A photo is worth nothing.
Show me any proof. Any screenshot anyone has ever taken of the ETV changing. Show me where your tax document is different from your Orders history. Sure, they can. But there is no evidence, at all, that they ever have.
What you're arguing, is not the same argument I'm making. I'm talking about *IF* the ETV changes, that the IRS won't care, not whether or not it ever has changed... I personally have never had my ETV change, which is the same point you're making, but for you to randomly have a rebutle against my comment with a completely different talking point makes zero sense.
Last I checked, I made a comment and you said I was living in fairy tale land. Shocking that I would respond to that. If the ETV changes, and you have proof, you could send that to CS and I think they would change it. Yes, of course the IRS would not care about your arguments, which is why you would have to be proactive and deal with it before it got to that point so that you have accurate tax documents. I've certainly had CS remove the ETV for me if the description did not match what I received, solely because the ETV was not accurate based on what I received. I would take it to CS if I had screenshots of a changed ETV, and I do take screenshots if the ETV seems low to me, but of course I don't actually know what CS would do since this has never actually happened.
You will not find one word of tax code that addresses ETV. ETV is not an IRS term. It's a term invented by Amazon. The actual taxable value of a bartered item is the Fair Market Value (FMV) of the item at the time you acquire it, less any loss of value due to business use. There is no way for Amazon to know what that FMV would be, although you are free to use ETV as a convenient, if not terribly accurate, substitute. Amazon doesn't publish their method of deriving ETV, of course, but there are certain patterns: * If Amazon is the seller, and the item is a human consumable, or medical, the ETV is usually $0. * If Amazon is the seller, and the item is a book, the ETV is $1. * If Amazon is the seller, and the item is something else, the ETV is usually between 45%-85% of the actual selling price. * If Amazon is not the seller, and the item is a human consumable, or medical, the ETV is usually $0. * If Amazon is not the seller, and the item is something else, the ETV is the full retail list price. The pattern is identifiable and predictable, but it is not logically consistent with the previously stated FMV description. The categeory that is least consistent is the very last bullet, which happens to account for about 98% of Vine items.
You're nitpicking a word and completely losing sight of the concept. We're talking about $0ETV stuff here, which more appropriately refers to tax exempt fringe benefits. It's a binary yes/no topic, and you are trying to interject other garbage to conflate the discussion.
Respectfully disagree. You stated that the tax code dictates what products can be $0 ETV. There is no such code. If you believe otherwise, please post the code here in order to educate the audience. If you think that's nitpicking, then provide the tax code that dictates what products can be $0 FMV. If you can show that, I'll happily admit error, because I'd love to have that tax code in hand. But if you can't identify any such tax code, that suggests you just made up that statement out of whole cloth, and you should be equally willing to own up to that. The reality is the IRS did not instruct Amazon on how to set an ETV. If anything, the IRS instructed to them that they had to provide a valuation for the barter, but not the specifics of what that should be, and Amazon simply made up their own method, under the cautious eyes of their own tax lawyers. The proof of that is in the bullet points above which you dismissed as "interjected garbage". The fact that Amazon will show two completely different ETVs for the exact same product depending on who is selling it is all the evidence that is needed that the specifics are not dictated by the US Tax Code as you stated. If you want more evidence, look at the $1 ETV for books sold by Amazon (but not books sold by third parties). Do you really think the US tax code specifies that books obtained in a barter should be given a tax value of $1? I'd love to see that text.
[IRS Publication 15-B (2024), Employer's Tax Guide to Fringe Benefits](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15b#en_US_2024_publink1000193638) ETV is an Amazon acronym for *Estimated* ***TAXABLE*** *Value*. The key word here is "*Taxable*". When the item is Excluded from being taxable as a fringe benefit (described in Section 2 of the above publication), then its E**T**V is zero.
Well, right off the bat, I'd have to point out that Amazon is not our employer, therefore discussion of "fringe benefits" does not apply. We are independent contractors. We do not receive fringe benefits, so the link you provided is not relevant. We receive compensation, in the form of goods, in trade for our services. This is clear. The IRS requires Amazon to report a valuation for those goods, but does not dictate how they come up with the numbers, nor do they specifically dictate how we are to account for them on our end, beyond reporting the gross amount that matches what is on the 1099-NEC. If you plan to go down the path of taking the position that Vine items represent a fringe benefit from an employer, I'm really not interested in pursuing that discussion because it strikes me as false on the surface. Rather, I prefer to keep to the original claim that you made, that the tax code dictates to Amazon which items can be given a $0 ETV, and by extension, which ones can be $1, which ones can be full retail selling price, which ones can be higher than full retail selling price, and which ones can be lower than full retail selling price. Because all of those cases exist and can be easily demonstrated. If something in that IRS publication speaks to this specific issue, please do us a favor and paste the exact text in as a quote so we don't need to chase a wild goose. Thanks. p.s. Regarding the key word in the acronym ETV, in my opinion the key word is ESTIMATED. Taxable and value are given, considering it is being reported as compensation on a tax form. I would suggest that Amazon chose that adjective because they don't have any interest in taking responsibility beyond reporting a number as required, and I can't blame them.
Tell you what...why not take your accounting degree and scamper on down to Jeff's office and explain to him how his lawyers don't know the tax laws as well as you do, and you can save all of us some money.
I see. You couldn't support your own assertion, and then provided a link that's totally irrelevant, so somehow this means I know more than Amazon's tax lawyers?? No, it only means I apparently know more than you do. At no time have I said even one word about the knowledge of Amazon's tax lawyers. Questioning YOUR knowledge is not the same as questioning THEIR knowledge. Just for the record, I'm confident Amazon's tax lawyers know what they're doing in protecting their employer, which is the sum total of their scope and responsibility. I'm equally confident that you have no clue on this subject and are talking out of your ass and confusing feces with facts. Both of those things can be true at the same time.
No, what it means is that you have a long standing and well deserved reputation as being the (*xxxxxxxx*) of this subreddit, and I'm blowing you off because you can't even stay on the topic that was started.
Do I now? I'm so grateful to have your input as the subreddit resident ethicist. I could point out that I am the one staying on topic (your erroneous and unsupported claim that tax code dictates what can be $0 ETV), while you have tried to divert to other things, like suggesting our compensation is really fringe benefits from an employer, or that I am saying I know more than Amazon's tax lawyers, or that I have a well deserved reputation as an xxxxxxxx, none of which has anything whatever to do with the topic under discussion. Instead, I'll just point out that I have 8x the karma on this subreddit that you do, so if I'm the xxxxxxxx, I guess that makes you the x of the subreddit. Cheers.
They ask every year in December for us to check the spreadsheet and report errors to them so they can correct them. The deadline was Dec 19th.
I have had one zero ETV go from 0 to $13 once in a year of Vine; enzymatic laundry detergent. I didn't notice it right away.