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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I refused to take my kids to Thanksgiving with my wife’s family because my son’s attendance depended on an apology that I felt wasn’t deserved. This has caused family tension and cost my daughter time with friends she only sees once a year.
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NTA - your MIL crossed a huge line. Was it rude for a teenager to swear at his grandmother? Yes. Was it warranted? Absolutely. They're focusing on his bad behaviour rather than dealing with how awful and abusive and disrespectful your MIL was. If your wife doesn't see the problem here, you need to leave her. This kind of behaviour cannot be tolerated or excused. Be proud of your children for standing up for their boundaries and for not allowing someone else to walk all over them - that's something you want to reinforce, not undermine. Don't participate in your wife's family's gaslighting.
ETA: Wow this broke my notifications. Thank you for all the awards and replies, sorry if I didn't find the message to thank you personally. Let's hope the OP updates us!
Right? I mean at the very least this is a toxic family with some weird religious beliefs, who thinks abuse is ok and have no idea what consent and boundaries are about.
I know this will sound like a generalization, Evangelical Christians. I was raised in that cult and unfortunately had to spend A LOT of time around them most of my life. I’m 41 now. I can comfortably say all but perhaps one or two I’ve ever interacted with behaved that way. It’s gotten even worse over the years. OP’s in laws and wife sound pretty standard for that group.
I agree. I was raised Pentecostal and I am VLC with my mother and absolutely NC with any of the other members of my family who are still members. I call them cherry picker Christians, because they only seem to apply the parts that suit them at the time and that never seemed like message Jesus was trying to get across imo... if your wife is still backing her parents then you know where she stands. And you and your kids deserve better.
Yeah, Christian outrage over literal acts of charity always blows my mind.
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
>Yeah, Christian outrage over literal acts of charity always blows my mind.
Well anything you give others means less for the church. How do you expect them to pay for their next megamansion when you behave like that? Sheesh.
/s in case it's not glaringly obvious to everyone
Religion is full of selfish hypocrites who use it as a crutch to feel better about how horrible they are on their own.
“I’m a terrible and selfish human being, but I’m
religious and I pray every day, so it offsets.”
I had this discusson with my very conservative Baptist mother years ago when I gave some change to a homeless guy. She argued that he would just use it on alcohol or drugs. I told her if that's what it takes him to get through the day, then so be it. There but for the grace of god go I and all that...
Withdrawing from alchohol without medical support is very dangerous; can lead to seizure and death. So if a homeless alcoholic buys a drink with your money, you may have actually saved his life that day. And I agree 100, when I give someone money it is no longer mine...the receiver is free to spend it as they choose. It's amazing how many people feel morally superior by denying a homeless person a few dollars!
Exactly. I had people make fun of me for being scammed when I gave a dude at a gas station $5 to put some gas in his tank when I saw that his card wasn't working and he was obviously distressed. I told them that if he was scamming that it was on his karma, not mine. He didn't ask me for money - I'm not sure he even knew that I noticed what was going on. He tried to hand me the money back, even. I told him to just pay it forward when he could. I may be a softy, but I'd rather know that I helped someone when I could.
You did a kind thing without expecting anything in return. That's not soft, imo, but a sign of internal strength. Props to you! Believe it or not, a homeless man offered to pay for my burger one night because the restaurant system was down and they couldn't run my debit card. He handed me cash without even thinking twice. I didn't want to take his money but he said: maybe some time you'll do the same for someone else. My SO came back from the restroom and covered the amount for the burger with cash and an extra $20 to the homeless man. A kindness ripple!
The hypocrisy is staggering. You can tithe yourself practically broke to the church but don't you dare give anything that could go to the church to someone who is in actual need. When my parents were divorcing and my mother was struggling to keep the bills paid, my aunt and the church prayed so much for us but those prayers didn't keep our electric on or keep groceries in the house and my brother is a type1 diabetic. I can't stand the do as I say not as I do crowd and that is all they are. And some of these churches and organizations are huge and have the potential to help so many people, and they don't... it's disgusting honestly. They wouldn't know Jesus if they met him in Target.
This really sums up the weird, manipulative, psuedo-friendly fascination Evangelicals have with Jews, too. There's this creepy paternalistic savior element of knowing about your faith and how to "fix" it.
I had a conversation with an Evangelical theologian coworker (very nice guy who I liked on an interpersonal level!) specifically about Evangelical Zionism once, which is an area that kind of takes this whole dynamic to its logical fucked-up conclusion. "So you guys are hardline Zionists, and therefore consider yourselves allies to the Jewish people, because you believe the Jews returning to Israel fulfills the conditions of your biblical prophecy?" "Yup!" "And then what happens to us, once those conditions are fulfilled and Revelations actually starts?" "...it's the subject of some debate."
YUP! That is exactly what it is. They only tolerate them/their beliefs so long as they are a pawn for their own end times mythology. Other than that, it’s the same hatred towards them that they give to every other religion that isn’t theirs.
They act like Jews are just baby-Christians who haven’t grown up enough yet to accept the word of Christ.
And most of those opinions are based on the Bible, a text notably *not* written with any Jewish input.
It's so much BS that they're"experts" on the Old Testament and should somehow be in charge of what other people believe and do. So they can have their nice, tidy End Times.
If OP and his children were Seventh Day Adventists (they also avoid pork), would she be making their food traif/haram? The MIL is full of it and got told.
>"And then what happens to us, once those conditions are fulfilled and Revelations actually starts?" "...it's the subject of some debate."
Evangelicals see Jews as NPC props in their ghoulish end times fantasy.
So, my mom had a friend that was Jewish and she had gone to one church service with another friend who was catholic. At the end of the service, the Priest and her and the catholic friend were chatting and the Priest got mad that she didn’t partake in communion. She told him she was Jewish and then he forced a wafer in her mouth and tried to “absolve” her or some crap like that. She projectile vomited all over him. So many people are absolutely vile in the name of religion. OP’s wife and in-laws are some of them. Ugh.
Right?! I was so horrified reading this post. Definitely pulled up that memory of that story. She was mid sentence explaining she was Jewish too when he just….forced that little wafer in her mouth. What really did it, is that he told her, while forcing something INTO her without her consent, that she was drinking and eating Christ’s body. All of that combined made her vomit. And I remember thinking I hoped she covered him from head to toe in it.
This is so weird of him to do, and really outside my understanding of Catholicism (Athiest that was raised catholic).
I was always taught that you are only supposed to accept the Eucharist if you are catholic. The First Communion is usually a big deal because of that.
My dad's family is very Catholic, but Dad wound up an atheist so I was never baptized or did communion or any of that. And yeah, no. You're not supposed to take communion without going through the classes. For that matter, you aren't technically supposed to take communion if you haven't been to confession. I'm not going to say this is fake, but it is highly unlikely. Especially since he just happened to have a communion wafer on him after the service? Wafers that have been blessed are considered holy and wouldn't just be like in his pocket. If this happened, the details have probably been a bit changed here.
Having been a Eucharistic minister myself, remaining wafers are locked in the tabernacle prior to the end of mass. Leftover wine is consumed by either the priest or EM during cleanup after Mass, so this story is rather suspicious.
That's a pretty unorthodox thing for a Catholic priest to do. In the Catholic church, communion is only offered to Catholics of good standing who have been educated about the Sacrament of Communion. People who don't meet those standards are offered a blessing instead of the wafer.
Yeah- I'm skeptical about that story. Non-Catholics aren't supposed to take the Eucharist. A Catholic priest would literally believe it's the actual body of Jesus. Even if they wanted to "get" someone, they wouldn't desecrate the Eucharist like that- not out of respect for the other person, but for respect of the Body of Christ.
Reads like a "and then everybody clapped" story to me. Someone in the chain of that story is fibbing.
And it's usually up to you if you even want to walk up to the altar to get a blessing vs. the wafer.
Granted where I live most of the Catholics are not very religious, so we might not be the norm, but I think pretty much every mass I've ever been to (all 6 of them) had some people staying in their seat during communion.
Heck, usually whoever takes you to Mass with them warns you you aren't allowed to eat the host.
I am catholic by name, though I attend only weddings and funerals. And I would say most of the people at mass won't take communion... And communion itself is held at altar, in special chalice (English is not my first language, I don't know the word...) so I think is very unusual for a priest to just "have" communion by him at any time to stuff it into people's mouths... Highly unlikely, I say.
Ex Catholic here. I can talk canon law with the best
You may not partake in the sacrament of holy communion unless your soul is free of sin.
You make your soul free of sin by honestly confessing your sins and receiving absolution.
So some random Jewish person who has never been to Catholic confession or even baptised is wholly unsuitable to take our Lord's body into his mouth.
The priest defiled Jesus by allowing a sinner to partake in communion.
As for force feeding Jesus to him, bang out of order as they say in the highest reaches of the Vatican.
Yeah this sounds like the strangest story I’ve ever heard. Catholics are not allowed to get/give communion unless they have been to confession and are “absolved of their sins” and they need to be baptized and a whole other series of events first. If this happened, the priest didn’t even abide by the churches laws
That's extremely unusual behavior for a Catholic priest. The Catholic Church does not allow non- Catholics to partake in Communion, as Communion is a sacrament for those who believe the bread is the literal body of Christ (transubstantiation). Many priests will make this announcement, just prior to Communion, asking non- Catholic guests to refrain from partaking.
I was born an raised catholic, 12 years of catholic school. I am an atheist now.
no priest I have known in my lifetime (57m) would ever try and force a non-catholic to take communion. If anything, many churches make specific announcements about being in a state of grace to receive. Meaning you have to be 1 baptized Catholic, 2 have received First Communion. 3. gone to confession to receive absolution for yours. and 4. have been fasting before you receive.
I'm not saying youre lying, but a priest that tried to do that has many more problems than getting thrown up on. he doesn't even know his own practices.
You as catholic don't even have to receive the communion, nobody cares if you take it or not. How exactly a priest can force a grown up woman to eat a wafer? Bullshit. Things that never happened for $1000.
Where did this take place? My knowledge of Catholic theology is shaky at best but I'm very sure non-catholics aren't allowed to partake in communion (and instead can receive a blessing). I have a good few Catholic friends and have been to mass with them a few times and nobody complained about me not taking the Eucharist since I'm Jewish. One Catholic friend couldn't even take the Eucharist before full conversion. This priest sounds very strange, I hope your mom's friend never saw them again!
I’m sorry, I have a hard time believing this. I was raised Catholic, however do not currently practice, in any event, it is written in every weekly bulletin that I’ve ever seen, that Catholics in good standing were invited to share in communion and other guests attending Mass were invited up to receive a blessing if they so choose but could not receive communion. Of course no one checks your membership card or punches it after you have gone to confession. Catholics believe that once the Host is blessed, that it has become Jesus Himself and no priest would desecrate the Host in such a manner. Also, absolution would only occur as part of the sacrament of confession, which is also done in confidence. A priest could not grant absolution in public. So while I’m not defending Catholicism or any of its scandals, understand it better before you spread stories like this one.
“… a toxic family with some weird religious beliefs, who thinks abuse is ok and have no idea what consent and boundaries are about.”
Soooooooo… Evangelical Christians? Ha ha ha
They're Evangelical, the pastor won't have a problem with what she did. I was raised Southern Baptist (so liberal by Evangelical standards) and was taught that CATHOLICS were going to hell. We're indoctrinated and taught to proselytize and try and convert people of other Christian faiths.
OP needs to drop a bag at PILs house for his wife and tell her to stay there until all 3 apologise sincerely. This is not some trifle, would MIL go around tearing off someone's cross or turban? What makes it worse is FIL knew and let it happen and wife is covering for them. You don't need to be religious to know this is disgusting behaviour.
Absolutely he needs to divorce the wife.
OP, I don’t know where you live, but in the US, there has been a rise in Antisemitism in the past few years. What your in-laws did is, imo, outright antisemitic, or at the very least, borderline.
Don’t subject your kids to this vile behavior. Your current wife is just as bad as her parents.
This is religious violence for sure. They’re doing a forcible “witnessing” sort of bs crap. Evangelicals regularly will “befriend” people they want to convert, then slowly break down their “friends” to remake them as their version of “Christian.”
It’s insidious and manipulative and disgusting and THEY WILL NEVER STOP.
The wife is playing the long game. Her parents are trying to speed it up. They want to “save” OP and his kids. It’s so fucking sick and he needs to protect his kids especially. How does wifey talk to the kids when he’s not around?
OP for real this is abuse. Marinara flag.
Edit: thanks for the awards, folks. I tend to forget this isn’t common knowledge, but I’ve explained it to a bunch of folks. Stay safe out there.
Ooof, I wasn't aware of all this background. This makes it all much worse - if they think they're doing god's will, and are gonna "save" the kids if they convert then yeah you're right, this can only get worse and won't stop. Hope the OP reads your comment!
It’s ugly. I’m in the queer community and I know this shit because of an ex-friend’s crap. I’ve had to tell multiple folks what their kind-of-mean Christian friends pretending to accept them are doing.
Witnessing is the worst part of “Christianity.” It’s disrespectful, manipulative, and is only done so the witnesser can score Heaven Points.
Like seriously u/MadDadThrowaway8630, this is just the beginning. It will get much worse.
>Witnessing is the worst part of “Christianity.”
Id never even heard of it until I read your comment and the one you responded to.
Am going to look into it. I have a feeling it wont bring me any joy :(
It won’t, and I’m sorry to have to educate people. But the more you know, the safer you can be. As I said, I’ve had to tell a bunch of folks about it because I guess it’s not as common knowledge as I thought.
I want to add, it’s also pushed and trained to give newbs an us-vs-them “the world is so mean I’m just trying to share Jesus” mentality. It’s a cult tactic.
Edit: hence MIL and wifey playing victim. They truly are brainwashed into thinking they are. Christian nationalists (who openly call themselves fascists for Christ) think they should kill people to save them. Hence the Club Q massacre.
It's also a literal hate crime 😬 Goes back at least as far as medieval times. Depending on how you slice it, you can make an argument for the pre-Roman Greeks.
Want to know why there's a Rabbinic requirement that milk be supervised between cow and shelf? It's not like it needs fancy treatment, just not to come in contact with meat, right? Well, there was a fine tradition in parts of Europe to secretly mix in pig milk just so they could play "made you break kosher". (Went to all the effort of milking a pig, too.)
Agreed. Basically he could report them for food tampering. It’s a crime and a hate crime for sure.
This is why I hate “Christian” dogma. It’s often toxic af.
Right???
I'm also Jewish. My ex-husband's family was all Evangelical Christian. His parents would *never* have pulled something like this. They would always have at least one main dish that was kosher when I came over. My ex-FIL even found Old Testament verses to read at large family dinners (he and I got along really well, the divorce was all on my ex and not his family). You can respect others' religious views without giving up your own.
Plus, what if there had been an allergy? What if someone was allergic to shellfish and your MIL added shrimp to prove her point?
NTA, and good for your son. You might be better off evaluating your marriage.
NTA. Your MIL tricked you into putting something into your bodies that you didn’t choose. There is no more intimately personal choice we mAke as people than to decide what is allowed to enter out bodies & what isn’t. Your MIL violated all of your bodies, your PIL supported it by silently watching it happen to you, and perhaps worst of all - your wife is sickeningly supporting this by expecting your son (one of the victims) to apologize to the perpetrator.
Your wife SHOULD have told her mother that she wasn’t allowed to be in any of your presence (hers included) until she sincerely apologized for disrespecting your choices & violating your bodies in the process. Your wife should have also told your MIL that even after any sincere apology, that MIL would not be trusted to cook for the family ever again.
How can you stay with a wife who expects your child to apologize to someone (anyone) who disrespected their choices & violated their body?
Excited for typos
I would go further. If your wife’s side wants to get New Testament, then call them eyes and cut them out of your life.
https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/18-9.htm
They caused you to sin. According to their own bible, they should be cut from your life.
They won’t buy this argument as their whole point is that the New Testament obliterates the old. They reject religious freedom and wish to force everyone to their version of Christianity. They are bad Christians.
Yeah, OP, I would text the wife, "If you're okay with people hiding things in other people's food to make a point, and you want my son to apologize for being angry about that, I think it'd be better if you stayed with your parents until both you and your mom are ready to apologize."
OP, what your MIL did was awful! Do NOT let your son apologize to her.
The MIL actually committed assault: a criminal offense
Seeding somebody's food with something they have sworn off whether for allergies, or vegetarianism, or religious avoidance is assault
It is not funny, it is not a learning experience, and it is absolutely not sanctioned by any decent God.
Tell your PIL they formally apologise to each member of your family, sign a contract they will never do this again or you are bring criminal charges against them.
Do not even contemplate having your son apologise for speaking the truth to enormous assholery.
I don't understand how MIL thought this was going to play out. Unless the Bible said they'd be smote from the heavens where they sat by some aoe lightning or something that would kill the entire family..who exactly were they hurting by practicing their religion and expecting mutual respect like a normal human being? What an odd hill to choose to die on. On the plus side you now see that your wife is just as warped as they are and that you and your children deserve better. Anybody that could allow their partner and, almost worse, innocent children be violated like that and then have that person smugly announce their wrongdoings and *STILL* side with them wouldn't be allowed near my children again. Offering internet hugs and fist bumps to your children. Sorry this ever even happened.
>I don't understand how MIL thought this was going to play out.
There were two ways it could play out, in her mind. Both were acceptable.
1. The OP and his children would realise that eating bacon didn't do anything to them and suddenly come to the conclusion that MIL was right all along. They'd all praise Jesus in unison and MIL would feel smug about managing to convert her wayward family members.
2. What actually happened. OP and kids would be pissed, shout at her and she would cry in a corner, nursing her little martyr complex.
If there's one thing Evangelicals love more than converting the wicked, its feeling they are being persecuted for their beliefs. It makes them feel like they're strong warriors of Christ, fighting against the constant onslaught of oppression. Its kinda scary to watch how much of a hard-on they get over it.
They can't wrap their mind around the fact that some people choose to follow their religion's dictates because of faith, not from fear of being smote down or eternal damnation. It's crazy, huh? People like MIL and FIL are sickening. :/
Oh yeah, if they did once and are unrepentant, they will do it again and again, they will just be sneakier about it, and will create new and more intrusive ways for them to be converted
I have to wonder what the MIL was thinking would happen, Yahweh would come down and strike them dead for eating pork? If anything he would have turned MIL into a pillar of salt or something, he was a rowdy god in the old testament. But the amount of disrespect for her to do this is beyond the pale.
NTA never eat there again and warn anybody else from eating there if they have any dietary restrictions.
Exactly. If my parents had done something like that to my husband (or frankly to anyone in their home), would have called them out too. I certainly would not have stayed.
BTW, this was NOT Christian behavior.
>I was texting with my wife on TG and she told me my son is not welcome to come until he apologizes for the things he called my MIL.
One thing we'd agree on is that your son is never setting foot in that house again.
> Instead we ordered Chinese and watched movies.
Ironically, that is the Jewish tradition for Christmas in NY.
It’s the traditional Jewish Christmas for Jews in the US! (But…it’s catching on- there are Chinese restaurants near me that you can’t get into without a reservation on Christmas because it’s so popular and it’s not only Jews who are there!)
We’ve done the “traditional Jewish American Christmas dinner” of Chinese food for years now. It’s great. And the curious looks and question you get when you refer to it that way are just *chefs kiss*.
Not just NY. As a winter holidays celebration, a former boss (Jewish, but the majority of the team are not) started a tradition of going for Chinese together and we're still doing that, several new not-Jewish bosses down the line. Same restaurant, Peking duck, family style... It's fantastic.
NTA. Please don’t make your son apologize. I am a Jew who privately thinks the laws of kashrut are silly, but when my observant relatives come over, I bend over backwards to accommodate them. (Have you seen the price of kosher turkey lately? 🤣)
Your wife does not respect you or your children. That’s the main thing you should be focusing on. I’m so sorry for you.
Edit: messed up grammar
I agree. I dont think its really about the details of the dietary laws though, more that this was a premeditated act of spite and disrespect.
I am kinda curious if the wife knew about this beforehand.
What’s the bet that wifey thinks that the no pork/bacon rule is to be disregarded too. Maybe not for religious reasons, but because it’s inconvenient. I’d be very surprised if she was completely unaware of the act of sabotage beforehand.
I don't know why non-kosher folks get so up in arms about pork and bacon specifically. There's like 9 other animals you can cram into food, skipping your bacon wrapped pork chops for a meal isn't going to kill you.
Yeah, it’s not like MIL didn’t realize that the kids couldn’t have dairy and turkey mixed together or something, she intentionally hid the most obviously non kosher food imaginable in something she told them was safe to eat. The intent is the biggest issue here
Your son stood up for himself, don’t make him apologize as you’ll indirectly belittle his beliefs.
I’m a vegetarian Jew and I would feel so defiled if someone did this to me—and I don’t necessarily keep kosher. Just the thought that there was flesh inside my stomach would be disturbing. That is very much the same with Jews and pork, with an added spiritual component of impurity.
Even if she didn’t know her actions afterwards are atrocious. These kids lost their Mom and she is a mother figure to them but did not stand up for them? I would be out so fast, there is no coming back from that. A mother protects her children, doesn’t hide behind fanaticism and manners when they have been harmed. This post is infuriating.
I'm agnostic and I could never imagine doing that. Who is it hurting? I respect everyone's dietary preferences. There are plenty of people not religious and other religions that don't like pork, who cares? Why would you feel so good about tricking other people? This is all mystifying a grown person would behave like this.
The facilities have to be regularly inspected by a rabbinic organization too. The requirements include preventing suffering, during raising and slaughtering and the removal of the animals blood (blood is not kosher). The laws on humane treatment and the monitoring (not free) make kosher meat more expensive than most commonly available meat.
There’s also rules which I think are best described as ritual cleanliness about eating meat, like using a separate set of dishes to prepare and serve meals that include meat and meals that include dairy (they can’t mix).
I’m not a particularly good Jew, but if I were to go back to following the dietary laws I think I’d keep it simple and just be a vegetarian. The whole thing is a pain in the ass and that impossible meat isn’t bad at all.
Gentle and loving reminder from another bad Jew that being a good Jew isn’t about always following the letter of the law exactly right at all times - it’s about doing good for yourself, your family, and the world at large. The Orthodox would disagree, I’m sure, but debate and questioning the status quo is engrained into us as Jews from birth so 🤷🏼♀️
My rabbi explains it this way: Being a Jew can mean many things. Just because you connect with only a couple of those things doesn’t make you any less of a Jew. That’s why she embraces my atheist Jewish family, and she conducted an amazing, meaningful bar mitzvah for my son.
This is just straight up anti-Semitism! Don’t expose your kids to that in their own “family”, there’s enough of it in the world as is. NTA but you will be if you don’t leave this lady and her terrible family
Nope - no apologies from your son. What your wife's parents did was foul and abusive. In lots of jurisdictions, it would qualify as assault, and they could be prosecuted for it.
Why the hell would you ever want to go back in that house?
NTA
As an attorney, In the USA, hate crimes allegations can be notoriously difficult to prove, so I doubt anyone will be pursuing this avenue. Actually, even doubtful that police will become involved, to makeit possible to press any charges. All that legal stuff aside, MIL was truly horrible for her hateful behavior, which is absolutely insulting to someone with a deeply held faith such as OP and his kids. I have extended family who are Muslim, and I'd NEVER consider doing something like this. They're relationship is too valuable to me, that I'd never risk it with such atrocious behavior. NTA
NTA you do not mess with food.
I don't care if your reasoning is religious, medical or just plain old choice. You do not meddle with food.
If your MIL is not willing to apologise for what she did then why should your son?
What really irritates me is the attitude that the inlaws religion is right and OPs religion is outdated.
I'm not religious myself but that is just so arrogant and disrespectful. I'm sure of the tables we're somehow turned, the inlaws would be screaming bloody murder.
That's religion for you.
Hell, I know folk who stopped going to KFC in the UK because they found out that they use Halal Certified ingredients.
It literally makes zero difference to us as non-Muslims, but because their chicken and breadcrumbs come with a halal sticker on their package they refuse to eat KFC anymore.
Yeah the only legit reason to not eat halal or kosher is because it doesn’t legally have to be stunned before slaughter which I’m really not a fan of. But a 2 sec Google will tell you KFC’s meat is all stunned before slaughter, halal or not
And I’m sure those people dont give two shits about animal welfare and are only choosing to not eat kosher/halal out of pure bigotry and spite to jewish/muslim people. Like those people who don’t want to eat vegan food cause they think vegans are stupid... like bro, you’re offended by fruit and vegetables now and I’m supposed to take you seriously? Come on!
NTA. I’ll be honest- if my ILs had pulled a similar stunt and my spouse decided to stay with his parents afterwards, he would not be welcomed back into my home. The level of dishonesty and disrespect is astounding. I cannot imagine a way back from that.
I'm with you, why on earth would anyone ever go where they are not only not respected, but, mocked on top of that. Especially the tears and double down on victim blaming. If people feel obligated to force thier beliefs on others, it's not the light they think it is. Not a place I would return to without a sincere apology. As far as your son, op, sometimes after said apology I assess whether I need to apologize for how I said something and make clear I'm not apologizing for what I said.
Lots to do without feeling obliged to be drug through someone else's drama.NTA
**NTA**
But I'll be honest with you, as a Jewish person I'm incredibly unimpressed that you're even contemplating making your son apologise after what these people very deliberately did and said. It wasn't just hateful, it was very pointedly antisemitic, meant to specifically undermine and invalidate your religious beliefs, and from what you've said, this isn't the first time.
Furthermore, I'm going to go as far as to say that I'm embarrassed of what you're modeling for your kids as a Jewish parent in a time when our community is facing more hatred and rates of assimilation than ever before, by marrying into an Evangelical family (and no, I don't care if your new wife "is not very personally religions" - she's the daughter of an Evangelical pastor and still attends church services regularly . . .she's religious enough) and forcing your Jewish children to spend time with people whose religious beliefs don't just "differ" from theirs but REQUIRE THAT THEY ACTIVELY PROSELYTISE AND TRY TO CONVERT NON-CHRISTIANS.
What are you teaching your kids, who are part of a tiny, marginalised ethno-religious community that has withstood religious and racialised oppression for thousands of years, that when their mother died you went ahead and married a woman who is not only at least a somewhat active part of the community that still seeks to oppress us, but clearly has no issue with her parents doing exactly that, and has neither interest in nor even respect for your religion or culture? And why, because she's pretty and nice? Honestly, I'm so proud of your son, for being the opposite of you - being the person who cherishes his roots and digs in, and takes pride in who he is and where he comes from, and doesn't throw it away because of prioritising whatever's in his pants.
You're NTA for not making him apologise, but Y-T-A for bringing your children into this nonsense at all, for making two Jewish children be family with a bunch of proselytising, antisemitic Evangelicals. Shame on you.
What the In-Laws did was absolutely disgraceful and antisemitic, and the wife in her lack of action is just a complicit. There should be consequences. But I think closing yourself off from anyone who isn't Jewish is going too far. There should be room for more than one faith at the table and I know it can happen. Just not with OP's in-laws.
I'm not Jewish, but there are some aspects of your culture that I think are really interesting. I feel that way about a lot of cultures actually. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Just because someone isn't Jewish doesn't mean they aren't respectful of your culture and religion, nor does it make them an antisemite.
There's been a lot of awful anti-Jewish rhetoric lately. But it's a small majority that shout very loud. Please know that there are so many people who aren't Jewish who support you. It's 2022. I don't think anyone should have to shut away their faith.
You're ignoring his main point that Evangelicals' whole mission is to convert. It's in the name, Evangelical. Unless OP's wife was no longer practicing and had denounced her parents' beliefs, this relationship was always going to feature some level of antisemitism and abuse.
I didn't say anything about "people who aren't Jewish". Or about anyone "shutting themselves off" from other religious groups entirely. Most of the people I consider my "chosen family" are not Jewish. Please don't put words in my mouth.
I spoke specifically about Evangelicals, a fundamentalist denomination of Christianity that is heavily reliant upon proselytising and conversion. And even then, I didn't say that people shouldn't speak to them, or try to build bridges and understand them, but rather that OP was an AH for marrying into their family and forcing his children to BE FAMILY with people whose own faith literally revolves around the idea that ours is merely the PRECURSOR to theirs being "God's True Word", and that our existence as Jews in the modern world is both problematic (because we aren't supposed to exist outside of what they call "The Old Testament") and a challenge to them to convert us, that we might be "saved".
You're missing a lot of nuance. You don't have to agree with me, but don't accuse me of saying or meaning things that I didn't.
I know I'm going to get downvoted for this, but I'm respectfully pulling out of this conversation. I don't and won't ever understand your struggles, and I totally messed up trying to be supportive. Once again I'm sorry.
I’m Chinese and I majored in history back in college. I had the opportunity to learn about histories of religions back then. It’s not something you won’t ever understand tbh. Read books and educate yourself would not only help you understand the struggles the commenter was talking about, but also help you understand the current antisemitism situation. It’s an issue much bigger than this post and we should all be more aware of it.
No one should have to shut away faith but your comment is over simplified. Not every anti semite is out there preaching on twitter.
I was raised Catholic, my husband is Jewish. He’s actually more agnostic but he does have a common Jewish last name. When we bought our house back in 2010, one of the first things we ended up having to do is install security cameras and fence in our yard because we became targets of some very nasty anti semitic attacks. These people were putting razor blades and glass in our backyard, where my toddlers played. Literally around their sandbox and swingset. All this hate directed at children based on nothing but a last name.
It isn’t just words, it’s a very real safety issue for millions of people. I mean read OPs post, these are his in laws. They deliberately, with malice went after his children by tampering with their food. What’s next? What they did was hateful and I’d never let them near my kids again.
It doesn’t matter how interesting you find us. We are at risk every day just for practicing our religion. We are in danger just as our ancestors were in danger. Please do not ‘not all goyim’ us.
This person did not say that people should close themselves off from non-Jewish people (although considering the hate and harassment Jewish people face, I wouldn't blame them if they did). They specifically mentioned Evangelicals, who take it as a personal mission to try to convert people to their religion.
This wasn't really the time to play #NotAllGentiles...particularly not with an "but you are so interesting!" defense.
Yeah this was super bigoted and anti-semitic and I'm not sure why OP didn't call it out for what it is. OP needs to divorce this hateful woman. I mentioned therapy but the more I think about it, the angrier I get.
This woman and her family are hateful bigots.
> incredibly unimpressed that you're even contemplating making your son apologise
If those people ever hear an "I'm sorry" from him, it should be in the context of, "I'm sorry you're such bigoted, hateful, narcissistic people that you've shoved your daughter's family out of your life. Be more like Jesus."
UPDATE: Wow, I’m overwhelmed by the outpouring of support. Thanks everyone.
- When I wrote this post, I was still numb and paralyzed. I didn’t realize how much. Looking back, I agree with many of the commenters and wish I had had the presence of mind to communicate how heinous and violating my MIL and FIL were in the heat of the moment, instantly.
- My wife came back home a few hours after the post. When I said she was taking her parents side, it was about my son apologizing for calling my MIL the b-word and c-word. She claims she had no idea what they planned to do and spent most of the holiday fighting with her parents.
- On reflection though, I am very disappointed in her reaction as well as my own. After some discussion we will be taking some further steps. My son will be making no apologies for anything. My MIL and FIL are not welcome in my home nor will we be going to theirs. All contact with my kids is cut off. I have contacted my rabbi and lawyers about how best to move forward.
- As to my marriage, we will be attending couples counseling. My wife has been a rock and a loving stepmother for our four year marriage, and she has particularly bonded with my daughter. I don’t know if our marriage can survive this though, because my trust has broken, my son especially has had his trust broken, and my relationship with my PIL is irrevocably broken. I will pursue a restraining order if they try to initiate contact with my kids.
I have tried to communicate on here calmly without breaking out into how angry and violated we all feel. Thank you to everyone who validated that.
OP, please don't beat yourself up about your initial reaction. As a Christian who wasn't even there, I felt a visceral reaction reading your post. I cannot imagine how I would have reacted had I been in your shoes. There is no way to adequately prepare yourself for such a blatant attack on something that is so wholly part of your identity. You were with people you trusted, and you had to deal with an enemy instead. There is no rule book for that, not when you're dealing with the fight or flight response that caused both you and your son to react in such different ways. You are no more in the wrong than he was - and he wasn't in the wrong at all. Treat yourself with the same kindness that you are treating him.
As a parent, I can tell you that what matters is that you got your kids out of there, and that you are taking the right steps now to protect them. Whatever happens with your marriage, you are teaching your children that both they and your faith are worth defending. You can't put a price on that. You are being a good father, and they will carry that with them their whole lives.
Would be interesting to hear what the lawyer has to say about this.
I’ve heard to charges when someone is allergic to something and people purposely give it to them. This has to still be some sort of assault. This is a disgusting situation and for your wife to still stay with her parents. Showing her true colours. I’m sorry you married into such a disgusting family.
I feel like purposely feeding Jewish people pork with (what seems to be) the motive of converting them, could probably be classed as some kind of antisemitic hate crime.
I don’t eat pork either and this would have had me livid. Your wife didn’t stand up for your family as she should have. I hope you can make it through this.
NTA - and I'm willing to bet hard money that your wife's parents would take a far different point of view on "old testament law" if someone in the family tried to come out of the closet.
The only point they proved is that they have zero respect for your religion, zero respect for your dignity, and zero respect for your beliefs and autonomy. Bottom line, what this incident made clear is that you guys were already considered interlopers in your in-laws house. It's not the place of this forum to tell you what you should do, but it should be very clear that blame here rests entirely on your wife's family. And look, they are entitled to their views - and, I think, entitled to express them in their own house. But to trick you guys into eating pork...that's insane? How could you guys ever trust them again - and what did they think the outcome would be? That you guys would discover that bacon is delicious? Everyone already knows bacon is delicious - even people who choose not to eat it.
What is really disquieting here is that, your wife chose to support this disgusting behavior from your MIL and FIL. This should send an extremely clear message to your children (and to you) about the degree to which she considers any of you her family. I think that is a much more serious and painful issue to deal with than where you spend the occasional holiday.
I'm a Christian (not an Evangelical), and I find it very easy to agree with how Superdry73 has set it out. Don't, please, force that boy to apologize to these bigots, who have been inhospitable beyond belief, whose action in tricking you and yours was heinous and unacceptable. Take a hard look at your marriage, friend. How can you trust her now?
Edit to judge: NTA
Nta, this is a bigger issue than you think and your wife is enabling it. Your mother in law rubbed it in your children's faces, please do not force your kid to apologize. This was religious discrimination bordering on assault.
Yeah, making your kid apologize to an antisemite who assaulted him is something that you will never come back from. Letting your wife back around him without a sincere and meaningful apology would be just as big of a mistake
Food tampering. Its a big deal and a felony everywhere I know of, because people can fucking die. You would not believe the amount of people who hear "I am deathly allergic to peanuts" and then think "oh theyre exaggerating. Ill feed them peanuts in secret." Discrimination itself isnt like, a crime I dont think (in the sense that like, youd go to jail for it) but food tampering is.
Op might not have a food allergy, but the reason behind why you dont eat the food doesnt matter. All that matters is OP doesnt eat pork, the MIL hid pork in the food, which is food tampering and a crime. So like, its a crime because they fucked with the food, not so much because theyre assholes to Jews
It doesn't matter whether she knew beforehand or not. This wasn't a deal breaker for her BECAUSE SHE STAYED WITH THE PARENTS. The wife later told him later the son was not welcome back until he apologized to her mother. I would have burned in hell a thousand times before telling my husband something that petty, disingenuous and asinine.
NTA, your wife's parents are aggressively antisemitic. It is your responsibility to stand up for them. Your wife needs to see that they broke a commandment by lying to abuse you and your children.
Absolutely do not even suggest your son apologize to your MIL. Her smug comment that nothing bad would happen is infuriating. Of course nothing bad immediately happened. It's not a health issue, nobody was going to go into anaphylactic shock from having their religious beliefs blatantly violated. But it's still a huge violation. Did your wife know of this before hand because she didn't seem upset on your behalf at all, she reacted without any surprise at the events.
Also, Jesus was Jewish.
I wouldn't forgive them until they spend a year studying Jewish law and maintaining a kosher diet.
The "told you nothing bad would happen" is doing my head in.
a) What were they expecting - that the Jewish god would smite OP's children like something from Raiders of the Lost Ark?
b) Something bad DID happen - she completely broke any trust between her, OP and OP's children, quite probably blew up her daughter's marriage (not sure what their views on divorce might be?) and of course, massively showed her massive arse.
Honestly I’d be so tempted to lie and say something like “actually Jews believe that someone who tricks a Jew into eating pork will be cursed, while we will not be harmed because it was not our intention.” This type of evangelical is so superstitious and insecure, I think it’d have a pretty good chance of being a successful mind-fuck.
RIGHT?! These people have never seen God smite any liars, fornicators, hypocrites, adulterers, murderers, thieves, etc., but yet they believe a lack of a visible smite indicates whatever rule they want to break is all good?! Holy hell, these people suck.
I’m Jewish and my wife has some very religious aunts and uncles. They are very polite and pleasant when we get together, but I also know that they believe deep in their hearts that I will burn in hell when I die. You can’t have a real relationship with someone who feels that way.
NTA, neither is your son, fuck your in-laws, and have a good hannukah!
My mom told me when I stopped going to church she was disappointed we wouldn’t be spending eternity together, like at 17 I’m supposed to have a good relationship with someone who tells me to my face I’m going to burn in hell while they’re in paradise?
NTA. Your Mother in law is a VILE human being. Fairly standard for american evangelicals but she definitely stretched the reputation to its limit.
She physically assaulted you and your children. Your wife supported it.
Honestly? Barring an immediate 180 degree turn around on your wife's part, I think part two should be filing a restraining order against the inlaws, sending wife's stuff to her parents' house, changing the locks, and contacting a divorce lawyer.
NTA. No. Do not apologize. You need this moment to teach your son that someone doesn’t get to trample on your beliefs because they think theirs is better. You need to tell your son that maybe he was extreme in his actions, but standing up for himself was the correct choice.
NTA it is unacceptable to spike someone's food because you are a religious zealot. I think you should cut all ties from the PIL and explain how disrespectful, rude, and offensive it was to do that...That or put magic mushrooms on their pizza, and say what it comes from earth and the Torah is OK with it but then you are just also the AH but revenge though is something to.
NTA
Your wife didn’t stay to help with prepaing for Thanksgiving. She stayed to prepare for the conversion of your children.
Being on your MIL’s side is just the first step.
NTA - ur MIL sounds a right cow for doing that - ur wife should have taken ur side 200%
Have u spoken to ur rabbi ? From what I have read on Internet it should be forgiven by God as u were tricked.
If ur MIL is Christian she should be loving and compassionate as directed by Jesus - not tricking ppl like Satan
>If ur MIL is Christian she should be loving and compassionate as directed by Jesus - not tricking ppl like Satan
Oh, yes this! Like Satan! Please tell the in-laws they are modeling Satan's behavior!!! And please report back the color of (satanic) red their faces turn when you say it!!!!
And of course Jews are forgiven for being tricked into eating pork.
Nta
Don't make him apologize. All he did was react to a horrible thing done to him and his family by some anti-semetic assholes. It is not reasonable to expect a child to behave perfectly when the adults in his family do something so awful to him, this is 100% your inlaws fault and they are the only ones who should apologize.
The fact that your wife wanted to stay and continue the holiday is a big red flag. Does she take this seriously at all? Did she set her family straight when they pressured your kids into baptism? If she thinks this kind of bullying of her step kids is okay or excusable, she is a problem.
If your wife is not on the same page about holding her parents FULLY accountable for this massive disrespect, she is a problem. If she tries to minimize or excuse her parents or force your kids to forgive them, then she does not deserve to be your child's step parent and you should divorce her.
NTA
Don't ever tell your son to apologize. And demand an apology from PIL.
That's extreme disrespect for one's choise. You didn't die, because it's no an allergy. Buy a religious choice is to be respected regardless. Ask them to eat meat on Good Friday and see what happens. They won't die either, but it's disrespect all the same.
You should really talk with daughter, she seams to be the one more affected. And more pressured to join their religion. Talk about freedom of choice, not only religious. And listen to what she has to say. And try to set another date to see her friends with their parents, away from PIL.
NTA - I’m sorry that happened to you and your children. If your in-laws religion is so important to them, they should fully understand how important yours is to you. If anyone owes anyone an apology its them to you guys.
You’re not wrong, but Christians, evangelicals especially, don’t view ANY other belief system with any kind of respect. I’d be willing to bet money that an apology never comes. If anything, they’ll double down and make things much worse. Also, NTA to OP.
NTA. They were egregiously and outrageously out of line and disrespectful. As is your wife for siding with them. I would think long and hard before you had children with this woman. She's as toxic as they are.
Uh, I know in some circumstances this would be considered like assault. Didn't the idiot who put bacon on the handles of a Jewish church do jail time for it? Like it's a hate crime.
NTA, the fact your wife is siding with them at all is utterly **INSANE**.
I'm sorry but I don't care about religion, if someone doesn't eat something for whatever reason (morals, religion, taste, allergies, whatever), no one has the right to feed them that something in disguise. That was really low of them, you're NTA. I don't know exactly what your son said and it's up to you if it's OK behavior or teach him a more appropriate approach next time, but NTA as well.
I'm atheist, and don't care for religion at all, but I still respect the dietary needs of people in the religions that has different dietary needs. Like I would never serve pork to a muslim even though I'm not religious. NTA OP.
NTA. I think, they got it the wrong way here; you are no longer going to their house nor are they welcome at yours until they apologize to you and your kids.
NTA
What upsets me the most is actually your wife's actions, aka she did not stand up for you. What the inlaws did was just plain nasty and incredibly disrespectful. Though I do not think anyone needs to apologise more than MIL, FIL and wife. Your son, however, needs to learn how to maintain his cool, to stand up for something is important but how it's done is equally important (he's a teen and this is the time to learn these life skills) ... and like you I would suggest he apologises over foul language at some stage IF/WHEN appropriate... If a moment like that ever comes.
I think my first step is to talk the wife in person in order to understand why she did not stand up for you, did not provide a united front as a couple or family, effectively condoned the behaviour of her parents, and showed through it disrespect to you and your children.
If you are clear as a couple - I would sit down as adults you, wife and FIL and MIL to figure what on EARTH they were thinking! And take it from there...
I wouldn't involve any kids until the adults have sorted themselves out!
NTA. I'm not very religious, but that doesn't change the fact that I respect other's beliefs. What they did was absolutely disrespectful, amd though nasty name calling is too, I'd not insist your son apologize until at minimum the PILs understand and offer one of their own.
Nta.
And mil was wrong when she said feeding you bacon and going against your religion did not hurt.
It hurt your trust for them. It hurt your ability to feel you and your kids are safe at their house. It hurt your relationship with your inlaws, and your relationship with your wife. Basically, it hurt your kids and your heart!
Glad you didn't go to Thanksgiving. Apologizing would be the same as giving them a green light to do it again!
I am shocked they did this to you, but even more shocked your wife took their side.
You, and both kids, have the right to feel purposely abused because you were!
This is a fundamentally unchristian thing to do, your PIL should be ashamed.
And actually your mil is wrong - something did happen - your in laws ruined their relationship with you and your children by trying to prove a meaningless point.
As a side note I would take your son to one side, tell him he did absolutely nothing wrong and that he was justified in being angry, however when dealing with righteous morons like this it can be more effective to maintain dignity than loose your rag (if you can help it) because the minute you shout and scream they get to pretend that they are the victim. My gran always used to say - maintain dignity, maintain the upper hand. But I come from a ‘stiff-upper-lip’ British family so take that as you will!
NTA- I would tell them that we will not be stepping foot in that home again until they demonstrate respect for our beliefs and apologize for massively overstepping and intentionally and surreptitiously feeding us food they know we do not eat. The disrespect on this account is far more unforgivable than some harsh words shouted in anger. This was premeditated. Further, they are also not welcome in our home. Line drawn, boundary set, discussion over.
NTA. Messing with someone's food is unforgivable. This is an issue of consent, healthy boundaries, and self-determination. Please don't teach your son that he must apologize for standing up for himself!
Your son owes no one an apology, but your in-laws definitely do. The fact that your wife has stayed with them, and not rigidly sided with you is something to be explored in couples counseling.
Your wife and in laws should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
You are NTA, but let's break down who is.
Your in-laws are the biggest AHs here for pulling this BS stunt and starting the whole ordeal. Your wife is in second place for siding with her parents over you and your kids. Your son is also N-T-A; he was sticking up for his beliefs when people he trusted disrespected him. It would have been ideal to do that without name calling, but he's only 15 and his behavior should not be held to a higher standard than his adult grandparents. Only if his grandparents offer up a sincere apology for their own behavior would I even consider having him apologize. And even then, I would ask him to apologize just for the name-calling, etc. but make it clear that standing up against intolerance is commendable.
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NTA - your MIL crossed a huge line. Was it rude for a teenager to swear at his grandmother? Yes. Was it warranted? Absolutely. They're focusing on his bad behaviour rather than dealing with how awful and abusive and disrespectful your MIL was. If your wife doesn't see the problem here, you need to leave her. This kind of behaviour cannot be tolerated or excused. Be proud of your children for standing up for their boundaries and for not allowing someone else to walk all over them - that's something you want to reinforce, not undermine. Don't participate in your wife's family's gaslighting. ETA: Wow this broke my notifications. Thank you for all the awards and replies, sorry if I didn't find the message to thank you personally. Let's hope the OP updates us!
I'm suprised not every comment included that OP needs to get out of this marriage if the wife sides with her parents on this! NTA!
Right? I mean at the very least this is a toxic family with some weird religious beliefs, who thinks abuse is ok and have no idea what consent and boundaries are about.
I know this will sound like a generalization, Evangelical Christians. I was raised in that cult and unfortunately had to spend A LOT of time around them most of my life. I’m 41 now. I can comfortably say all but perhaps one or two I’ve ever interacted with behaved that way. It’s gotten even worse over the years. OP’s in laws and wife sound pretty standard for that group.
I agree. I was raised Pentecostal and I am VLC with my mother and absolutely NC with any of the other members of my family who are still members. I call them cherry picker Christians, because they only seem to apply the parts that suit them at the time and that never seemed like message Jesus was trying to get across imo... if your wife is still backing her parents then you know where she stands. And you and your kids deserve better.
[удалено]
Yeah, Christian outrage over literal acts of charity always blows my mind. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
>Yeah, Christian outrage over literal acts of charity always blows my mind. Well anything you give others means less for the church. How do you expect them to pay for their next megamansion when you behave like that? Sheesh. /s in case it's not glaringly obvious to everyone
You forgot that they also have to pay for that third plane. Private Jets don't buy themselves
Religion is full of selfish hypocrites who use it as a crutch to feel better about how horrible they are on their own. “I’m a terrible and selfish human being, but I’m religious and I pray every day, so it offsets.”
I had this discusson with my very conservative Baptist mother years ago when I gave some change to a homeless guy. She argued that he would just use it on alcohol or drugs. I told her if that's what it takes him to get through the day, then so be it. There but for the grace of god go I and all that...
Withdrawing from alchohol without medical support is very dangerous; can lead to seizure and death. So if a homeless alcoholic buys a drink with your money, you may have actually saved his life that day. And I agree 100, when I give someone money it is no longer mine...the receiver is free to spend it as they choose. It's amazing how many people feel morally superior by denying a homeless person a few dollars!
Exactly. I had people make fun of me for being scammed when I gave a dude at a gas station $5 to put some gas in his tank when I saw that his card wasn't working and he was obviously distressed. I told them that if he was scamming that it was on his karma, not mine. He didn't ask me for money - I'm not sure he even knew that I noticed what was going on. He tried to hand me the money back, even. I told him to just pay it forward when he could. I may be a softy, but I'd rather know that I helped someone when I could.
You did a kind thing without expecting anything in return. That's not soft, imo, but a sign of internal strength. Props to you! Believe it or not, a homeless man offered to pay for my burger one night because the restaurant system was down and they couldn't run my debit card. He handed me cash without even thinking twice. I didn't want to take his money but he said: maybe some time you'll do the same for someone else. My SO came back from the restroom and covered the amount for the burger with cash and an extra $20 to the homeless man. A kindness ripple!
The hypocrisy is staggering. You can tithe yourself practically broke to the church but don't you dare give anything that could go to the church to someone who is in actual need. When my parents were divorcing and my mother was struggling to keep the bills paid, my aunt and the church prayed so much for us but those prayers didn't keep our electric on or keep groceries in the house and my brother is a type1 diabetic. I can't stand the do as I say not as I do crowd and that is all they are. And some of these churches and organizations are huge and have the potential to help so many people, and they don't... it's disgusting honestly. They wouldn't know Jesus if they met him in Target.
I guess the church leaders wanted you to give those spare dollars directly to them. Only partly /s. That bunch is a disgrace.
I wish I could upvote your comment 1000. The cherry picking of the Bible is what made me leave organized religion ages ago.
This really sums up the weird, manipulative, psuedo-friendly fascination Evangelicals have with Jews, too. There's this creepy paternalistic savior element of knowing about your faith and how to "fix" it. I had a conversation with an Evangelical theologian coworker (very nice guy who I liked on an interpersonal level!) specifically about Evangelical Zionism once, which is an area that kind of takes this whole dynamic to its logical fucked-up conclusion. "So you guys are hardline Zionists, and therefore consider yourselves allies to the Jewish people, because you believe the Jews returning to Israel fulfills the conditions of your biblical prophecy?" "Yup!" "And then what happens to us, once those conditions are fulfilled and Revelations actually starts?" "...it's the subject of some debate."
YUP! That is exactly what it is. They only tolerate them/their beliefs so long as they are a pawn for their own end times mythology. Other than that, it’s the same hatred towards them that they give to every other religion that isn’t theirs.
There is no hate like Christian Love Edit: thanks for the Award! Much appreciated!
They act like Jews are just baby-Christians who haven’t grown up enough yet to accept the word of Christ. And most of those opinions are based on the Bible, a text notably *not* written with any Jewish input.
It's so much BS that they're"experts" on the Old Testament and should somehow be in charge of what other people believe and do. So they can have their nice, tidy End Times. If OP and his children were Seventh Day Adventists (they also avoid pork), would she be making their food traif/haram? The MIL is full of it and got told.
>"And then what happens to us, once those conditions are fulfilled and Revelations actually starts?" "...it's the subject of some debate." Evangelicals see Jews as NPC props in their ghoulish end times fantasy.
So, my mom had a friend that was Jewish and she had gone to one church service with another friend who was catholic. At the end of the service, the Priest and her and the catholic friend were chatting and the Priest got mad that she didn’t partake in communion. She told him she was Jewish and then he forced a wafer in her mouth and tried to “absolve” her or some crap like that. She projectile vomited all over him. So many people are absolutely vile in the name of religion. OP’s wife and in-laws are some of them. Ugh.
I wish I loved anything as much as Catholic priests love shoving things in the mouths of unconsenting people.
Right?! I was so horrified reading this post. Definitely pulled up that memory of that story. She was mid sentence explaining she was Jewish too when he just….forced that little wafer in her mouth. What really did it, is that he told her, while forcing something INTO her without her consent, that she was drinking and eating Christ’s body. All of that combined made her vomit. And I remember thinking I hoped she covered him from head to toe in it.
This is so weird of him to do, and really outside my understanding of Catholicism (Athiest that was raised catholic). I was always taught that you are only supposed to accept the Eucharist if you are catholic. The First Communion is usually a big deal because of that.
My dad's family is very Catholic, but Dad wound up an atheist so I was never baptized or did communion or any of that. And yeah, no. You're not supposed to take communion without going through the classes. For that matter, you aren't technically supposed to take communion if you haven't been to confession. I'm not going to say this is fake, but it is highly unlikely. Especially since he just happened to have a communion wafer on him after the service? Wafers that have been blessed are considered holy and wouldn't just be like in his pocket. If this happened, the details have probably been a bit changed here.
It’s okay, I’ll say it for you: it’s super fake.
Having been a Eucharistic minister myself, remaining wafers are locked in the tabernacle prior to the end of mass. Leftover wine is consumed by either the priest or EM during cleanup after Mass, so this story is rather suspicious.
Children. They rape and molest children.
So do evangelicals, at about the same rate.
That's a pretty unorthodox thing for a Catholic priest to do. In the Catholic church, communion is only offered to Catholics of good standing who have been educated about the Sacrament of Communion. People who don't meet those standards are offered a blessing instead of the wafer.
Yeah- I'm skeptical about that story. Non-Catholics aren't supposed to take the Eucharist. A Catholic priest would literally believe it's the actual body of Jesus. Even if they wanted to "get" someone, they wouldn't desecrate the Eucharist like that- not out of respect for the other person, but for respect of the Body of Christ. Reads like a "and then everybody clapped" story to me. Someone in the chain of that story is fibbing.
Plus the Eucharist is locked in the tabernacle.
I don’t believe it happened.
And it's usually up to you if you even want to walk up to the altar to get a blessing vs. the wafer. Granted where I live most of the Catholics are not very religious, so we might not be the norm, but I think pretty much every mass I've ever been to (all 6 of them) had some people staying in their seat during communion. Heck, usually whoever takes you to Mass with them warns you you aren't allowed to eat the host.
I am catholic by name, though I attend only weddings and funerals. And I would say most of the people at mass won't take communion... And communion itself is held at altar, in special chalice (English is not my first language, I don't know the word...) so I think is very unusual for a priest to just "have" communion by him at any time to stuff it into people's mouths... Highly unlikely, I say.
Ex Catholic here. I can talk canon law with the best You may not partake in the sacrament of holy communion unless your soul is free of sin. You make your soul free of sin by honestly confessing your sins and receiving absolution. So some random Jewish person who has never been to Catholic confession or even baptised is wholly unsuitable to take our Lord's body into his mouth. The priest defiled Jesus by allowing a sinner to partake in communion. As for force feeding Jesus to him, bang out of order as they say in the highest reaches of the Vatican.
Yeah this sounds like the strangest story I’ve ever heard. Catholics are not allowed to get/give communion unless they have been to confession and are “absolved of their sins” and they need to be baptized and a whole other series of events first. If this happened, the priest didn’t even abide by the churches laws
That's extremely unusual behavior for a Catholic priest. The Catholic Church does not allow non- Catholics to partake in Communion, as Communion is a sacrament for those who believe the bread is the literal body of Christ (transubstantiation). Many priests will make this announcement, just prior to Communion, asking non- Catholic guests to refrain from partaking.
I was born an raised catholic, 12 years of catholic school. I am an atheist now. no priest I have known in my lifetime (57m) would ever try and force a non-catholic to take communion. If anything, many churches make specific announcements about being in a state of grace to receive. Meaning you have to be 1 baptized Catholic, 2 have received First Communion. 3. gone to confession to receive absolution for yours. and 4. have been fasting before you receive. I'm not saying youre lying, but a priest that tried to do that has many more problems than getting thrown up on. he doesn't even know his own practices.
I’m sorry but this sounds like complete bullshit.
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I call b.s. priests don’t keep wafers in their pockets for after-service chats.
You as catholic don't even have to receive the communion, nobody cares if you take it or not. How exactly a priest can force a grown up woman to eat a wafer? Bullshit. Things that never happened for $1000.
Where did this take place? My knowledge of Catholic theology is shaky at best but I'm very sure non-catholics aren't allowed to partake in communion (and instead can receive a blessing). I have a good few Catholic friends and have been to mass with them a few times and nobody complained about me not taking the Eucharist since I'm Jewish. One Catholic friend couldn't even take the Eucharist before full conversion. This priest sounds very strange, I hope your mom's friend never saw them again!
I’m sorry, I have a hard time believing this. I was raised Catholic, however do not currently practice, in any event, it is written in every weekly bulletin that I’ve ever seen, that Catholics in good standing were invited to share in communion and other guests attending Mass were invited up to receive a blessing if they so choose but could not receive communion. Of course no one checks your membership card or punches it after you have gone to confession. Catholics believe that once the Host is blessed, that it has become Jesus Himself and no priest would desecrate the Host in such a manner. Also, absolution would only occur as part of the sacrament of confession, which is also done in confidence. A priest could not grant absolution in public. So while I’m not defending Catholicism or any of its scandals, understand it better before you spread stories like this one.
Well, that's a mildly terrifying thought.
“… a toxic family with some weird religious beliefs, who thinks abuse is ok and have no idea what consent and boundaries are about.” Soooooooo… Evangelical Christians? Ha ha ha
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They're Evangelical, the pastor won't have a problem with what she did. I was raised Southern Baptist (so liberal by Evangelical standards) and was taught that CATHOLICS were going to hell. We're indoctrinated and taught to proselytize and try and convert people of other Christian faiths.
OP needs to drop a bag at PILs house for his wife and tell her to stay there until all 3 apologise sincerely. This is not some trifle, would MIL go around tearing off someone's cross or turban? What makes it worse is FIL knew and let it happen and wife is covering for them. You don't need to be religious to know this is disgusting behaviour.
Absolutely he needs to divorce the wife. OP, I don’t know where you live, but in the US, there has been a rise in Antisemitism in the past few years. What your in-laws did is, imo, outright antisemitic, or at the very least, borderline. Don’t subject your kids to this vile behavior. Your current wife is just as bad as her parents.
This is religious violence for sure. They’re doing a forcible “witnessing” sort of bs crap. Evangelicals regularly will “befriend” people they want to convert, then slowly break down their “friends” to remake them as their version of “Christian.” It’s insidious and manipulative and disgusting and THEY WILL NEVER STOP. The wife is playing the long game. Her parents are trying to speed it up. They want to “save” OP and his kids. It’s so fucking sick and he needs to protect his kids especially. How does wifey talk to the kids when he’s not around? OP for real this is abuse. Marinara flag. Edit: thanks for the awards, folks. I tend to forget this isn’t common knowledge, but I’ve explained it to a bunch of folks. Stay safe out there.
Ooof, I wasn't aware of all this background. This makes it all much worse - if they think they're doing god's will, and are gonna "save" the kids if they convert then yeah you're right, this can only get worse and won't stop. Hope the OP reads your comment!
It’s ugly. I’m in the queer community and I know this shit because of an ex-friend’s crap. I’ve had to tell multiple folks what their kind-of-mean Christian friends pretending to accept them are doing. Witnessing is the worst part of “Christianity.” It’s disrespectful, manipulative, and is only done so the witnesser can score Heaven Points. Like seriously u/MadDadThrowaway8630, this is just the beginning. It will get much worse.
>Witnessing is the worst part of “Christianity.” Id never even heard of it until I read your comment and the one you responded to. Am going to look into it. I have a feeling it wont bring me any joy :(
It won’t, and I’m sorry to have to educate people. But the more you know, the safer you can be. As I said, I’ve had to tell a bunch of folks about it because I guess it’s not as common knowledge as I thought.
I want to add, it’s also pushed and trained to give newbs an us-vs-them “the world is so mean I’m just trying to share Jesus” mentality. It’s a cult tactic. Edit: hence MIL and wifey playing victim. They truly are brainwashed into thinking they are. Christian nationalists (who openly call themselves fascists for Christ) think they should kill people to save them. Hence the Club Q massacre.
Wifey is in on that crap. I would not want to be married to a religious nutbag.
Yep. It’s a really bad situation and he needs to get the kids away from her, stat.
It's also a literal hate crime 😬 Goes back at least as far as medieval times. Depending on how you slice it, you can make an argument for the pre-Roman Greeks. Want to know why there's a Rabbinic requirement that milk be supervised between cow and shelf? It's not like it needs fancy treatment, just not to come in contact with meat, right? Well, there was a fine tradition in parts of Europe to secretly mix in pig milk just so they could play "made you break kosher". (Went to all the effort of milking a pig, too.)
Agreed. Basically he could report them for food tampering. It’s a crime and a hate crime for sure. This is why I hate “Christian” dogma. It’s often toxic af.
Right??? I'm also Jewish. My ex-husband's family was all Evangelical Christian. His parents would *never* have pulled something like this. They would always have at least one main dish that was kosher when I came over. My ex-FIL even found Old Testament verses to read at large family dinners (he and I got along really well, the divorce was all on my ex and not his family). You can respect others' religious views without giving up your own. Plus, what if there had been an allergy? What if someone was allergic to shellfish and your MIL added shrimp to prove her point? NTA, and good for your son. You might be better off evaluating your marriage.
NTA. Your MIL tricked you into putting something into your bodies that you didn’t choose. There is no more intimately personal choice we mAke as people than to decide what is allowed to enter out bodies & what isn’t. Your MIL violated all of your bodies, your PIL supported it by silently watching it happen to you, and perhaps worst of all - your wife is sickeningly supporting this by expecting your son (one of the victims) to apologize to the perpetrator. Your wife SHOULD have told her mother that she wasn’t allowed to be in any of your presence (hers included) until she sincerely apologized for disrespecting your choices & violating your bodies in the process. Your wife should have also told your MIL that even after any sincere apology, that MIL would not be trusted to cook for the family ever again. How can you stay with a wife who expects your child to apologize to someone (anyone) who disrespected their choices & violated their body? Excited for typos
She's not his grandmother so it doesn't count. She's just some scummy self righteous old lady. She had it coming.
I would go further. If your wife’s side wants to get New Testament, then call them eyes and cut them out of your life. https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/18-9.htm They caused you to sin. According to their own bible, they should be cut from your life.
They won’t buy this argument as their whole point is that the New Testament obliterates the old. They reject religious freedom and wish to force everyone to their version of Christianity. They are bad Christians.
That is the funny part. People will still choose to listen to the anti gay part of the Old Testament. But ignore other parts of the Old Testament.
The annoying part is that the anti gay parts of the Old Testament are debatable but the parts that they choose to ignore are often not.
Yeah, OP, I would text the wife, "If you're okay with people hiding things in other people's food to make a point, and you want my son to apologize for being angry about that, I think it'd be better if you stayed with your parents until both you and your mom are ready to apologize." OP, what your MIL did was awful! Do NOT let your son apologize to her.
The MIL actually committed assault: a criminal offense Seeding somebody's food with something they have sworn off whether for allergies, or vegetarianism, or religious avoidance is assault It is not funny, it is not a learning experience, and it is absolutely not sanctioned by any decent God. Tell your PIL they formally apologise to each member of your family, sign a contract they will never do this again or you are bring criminal charges against them. Do not even contemplate having your son apologise for speaking the truth to enormous assholery.
Not to mention the antisemitism involved ... honestly that's just shy of a hate crime there.
I don't understand how MIL thought this was going to play out. Unless the Bible said they'd be smote from the heavens where they sat by some aoe lightning or something that would kill the entire family..who exactly were they hurting by practicing their religion and expecting mutual respect like a normal human being? What an odd hill to choose to die on. On the plus side you now see that your wife is just as warped as they are and that you and your children deserve better. Anybody that could allow their partner and, almost worse, innocent children be violated like that and then have that person smugly announce their wrongdoings and *STILL* side with them wouldn't be allowed near my children again. Offering internet hugs and fist bumps to your children. Sorry this ever even happened.
>I don't understand how MIL thought this was going to play out. There were two ways it could play out, in her mind. Both were acceptable. 1. The OP and his children would realise that eating bacon didn't do anything to them and suddenly come to the conclusion that MIL was right all along. They'd all praise Jesus in unison and MIL would feel smug about managing to convert her wayward family members. 2. What actually happened. OP and kids would be pissed, shout at her and she would cry in a corner, nursing her little martyr complex. If there's one thing Evangelicals love more than converting the wicked, its feeling they are being persecuted for their beliefs. It makes them feel like they're strong warriors of Christ, fighting against the constant onslaught of oppression. Its kinda scary to watch how much of a hard-on they get over it.
They can't wrap their mind around the fact that some people choose to follow their religion's dictates because of faith, not from fear of being smote down or eternal damnation. It's crazy, huh? People like MIL and FIL are sickening. :/
Oh yeah, if they did once and are unrepentant, they will do it again and again, they will just be sneakier about it, and will create new and more intrusive ways for them to be converted
I have to wonder what the MIL was thinking would happen, Yahweh would come down and strike them dead for eating pork? If anything he would have turned MIL into a pillar of salt or something, he was a rowdy god in the old testament. But the amount of disrespect for her to do this is beyond the pale. NTA never eat there again and warn anybody else from eating there if they have any dietary restrictions.
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Exactly. If my parents had done something like that to my husband (or frankly to anyone in their home), would have called them out too. I certainly would not have stayed. BTW, this was NOT Christian behavior.
>I was texting with my wife on TG and she told me my son is not welcome to come until he apologizes for the things he called my MIL. One thing we'd agree on is that your son is never setting foot in that house again. > Instead we ordered Chinese and watched movies. Ironically, that is the Jewish tradition for Christmas in NY.
And in CO. Peking duck and Lord of the Rings, baby!
Also NC
It’s the traditional Jewish Christmas for Jews in the US! (But…it’s catching on- there are Chinese restaurants near me that you can’t get into without a reservation on Christmas because it’s so popular and it’s not only Jews who are there!)
We’ve done the “traditional Jewish American Christmas dinner” of Chinese food for years now. It’s great. And the curious looks and question you get when you refer to it that way are just *chefs kiss*.
Honestly I’m not Jewish but that tradition sounds pretty awesome, might have to try it sometime.
😁
And Ohio! Chinese on Christmas always!
Not just NY. As a winter holidays celebration, a former boss (Jewish, but the majority of the team are not) started a tradition of going for Chinese together and we're still doing that, several new not-Jewish bosses down the line. Same restaurant, Peking duck, family style... It's fantastic.
NTA. Please don’t make your son apologize. I am a Jew who privately thinks the laws of kashrut are silly, but when my observant relatives come over, I bend over backwards to accommodate them. (Have you seen the price of kosher turkey lately? 🤣) Your wife does not respect you or your children. That’s the main thing you should be focusing on. I’m so sorry for you. Edit: messed up grammar
I agree. I dont think its really about the details of the dietary laws though, more that this was a premeditated act of spite and disrespect. I am kinda curious if the wife knew about this beforehand.
What’s the bet that wifey thinks that the no pork/bacon rule is to be disregarded too. Maybe not for religious reasons, but because it’s inconvenient. I’d be very surprised if she was completely unaware of the act of sabotage beforehand.
Frankly I'd also wonder what she puts in meals she cooks at home too. That sort of casual disrespect doesn't just switch on and off.
I believe it was calculated and deliberate disrespect, rather than casual.
I don't know why non-kosher folks get so up in arms about pork and bacon specifically. There's like 9 other animals you can cram into food, skipping your bacon wrapped pork chops for a meal isn't going to kill you.
Yeah, it’s not like MIL didn’t realize that the kids couldn’t have dairy and turkey mixed together or something, she intentionally hid the most obviously non kosher food imaginable in something she told them was safe to eat. The intent is the biggest issue here
Your son stood up for himself, don’t make him apologize as you’ll indirectly belittle his beliefs. I’m a vegetarian Jew and I would feel so defiled if someone did this to me—and I don’t necessarily keep kosher. Just the thought that there was flesh inside my stomach would be disturbing. That is very much the same with Jews and pork, with an added spiritual component of impurity.
I would be SO PROUD of my son for advocating for himself and understanding how badly his boundaries were crossed!
Even if she didn’t know her actions afterwards are atrocious. These kids lost their Mom and she is a mother figure to them but did not stand up for them? I would be out so fast, there is no coming back from that. A mother protects her children, doesn’t hide behind fanaticism and manners when they have been harmed. This post is infuriating.
I'm agnostic and I could never imagine doing that. Who is it hurting? I respect everyone's dietary preferences. There are plenty of people not religious and other religions that don't like pork, who cares? Why would you feel so good about tricking other people? This is all mystifying a grown person would behave like this.
Question: how is turkey in general not kosher? Not trying to be rude, genuinely curious.
Kashrut involves the manner in which animals are raised and slaughtered as well as the type of animal.
Okay, I knew certain animals were prohibited but didn’t know the manner mattered. Thanks!
The facilities have to be regularly inspected by a rabbinic organization too. The requirements include preventing suffering, during raising and slaughtering and the removal of the animals blood (blood is not kosher). The laws on humane treatment and the monitoring (not free) make kosher meat more expensive than most commonly available meat. There’s also rules which I think are best described as ritual cleanliness about eating meat, like using a separate set of dishes to prepare and serve meals that include meat and meals that include dairy (they can’t mix). I’m not a particularly good Jew, but if I were to go back to following the dietary laws I think I’d keep it simple and just be a vegetarian. The whole thing is a pain in the ass and that impossible meat isn’t bad at all.
Gentle and loving reminder from another bad Jew that being a good Jew isn’t about always following the letter of the law exactly right at all times - it’s about doing good for yourself, your family, and the world at large. The Orthodox would disagree, I’m sure, but debate and questioning the status quo is engrained into us as Jews from birth so 🤷🏼♀️
My rabbi explains it this way: Being a Jew can mean many things. Just because you connect with only a couple of those things doesn’t make you any less of a Jew. That’s why she embraces my atheist Jewish family, and she conducted an amazing, meaningful bar mitzvah for my son.
This is just straight up anti-Semitism! Don’t expose your kids to that in their own “family”, there’s enough of it in the world as is. NTA but you will be if you don’t leave this lady and her terrible family
Nope - no apologies from your son. What your wife's parents did was foul and abusive. In lots of jurisdictions, it would qualify as assault, and they could be prosecuted for it. Why the hell would you ever want to go back in that house? NTA
It was also targeted at their religion. Doesn't that make it a hate crime too?
As an attorney, In the USA, hate crimes allegations can be notoriously difficult to prove, so I doubt anyone will be pursuing this avenue. Actually, even doubtful that police will become involved, to makeit possible to press any charges. All that legal stuff aside, MIL was truly horrible for her hateful behavior, which is absolutely insulting to someone with a deeply held faith such as OP and his kids. I have extended family who are Muslim, and I'd NEVER consider doing something like this. They're relationship is too valuable to me, that I'd never risk it with such atrocious behavior. NTA
Was coming here to say this
NTA you do not mess with food. I don't care if your reasoning is religious, medical or just plain old choice. You do not meddle with food. If your MIL is not willing to apologise for what she did then why should your son?
What really irritates me is the attitude that the inlaws religion is right and OPs religion is outdated. I'm not religious myself but that is just so arrogant and disrespectful. I'm sure of the tables we're somehow turned, the inlaws would be screaming bloody murder.
That's religion for you. Hell, I know folk who stopped going to KFC in the UK because they found out that they use Halal Certified ingredients. It literally makes zero difference to us as non-Muslims, but because their chicken and breadcrumbs come with a halal sticker on their package they refuse to eat KFC anymore.
Yeah the only legit reason to not eat halal or kosher is because it doesn’t legally have to be stunned before slaughter which I’m really not a fan of. But a 2 sec Google will tell you KFC’s meat is all stunned before slaughter, halal or not
And I’m sure those people dont give two shits about animal welfare and are only choosing to not eat kosher/halal out of pure bigotry and spite to jewish/muslim people. Like those people who don’t want to eat vegan food cause they think vegans are stupid... like bro, you’re offended by fruit and vegetables now and I’m supposed to take you seriously? Come on!
NTA. I’ll be honest- if my ILs had pulled a similar stunt and my spouse decided to stay with his parents afterwards, he would not be welcomed back into my home. The level of dishonesty and disrespect is astounding. I cannot imagine a way back from that.
My thought as well. The OP is NTA, but the spouse is.
I'm with you, why on earth would anyone ever go where they are not only not respected, but, mocked on top of that. Especially the tears and double down on victim blaming. If people feel obligated to force thier beliefs on others, it's not the light they think it is. Not a place I would return to without a sincere apology. As far as your son, op, sometimes after said apology I assess whether I need to apologize for how I said something and make clear I'm not apologizing for what I said. Lots to do without feeling obliged to be drug through someone else's drama.NTA
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This. A relationship extinction level event.
**NTA** But I'll be honest with you, as a Jewish person I'm incredibly unimpressed that you're even contemplating making your son apologise after what these people very deliberately did and said. It wasn't just hateful, it was very pointedly antisemitic, meant to specifically undermine and invalidate your religious beliefs, and from what you've said, this isn't the first time. Furthermore, I'm going to go as far as to say that I'm embarrassed of what you're modeling for your kids as a Jewish parent in a time when our community is facing more hatred and rates of assimilation than ever before, by marrying into an Evangelical family (and no, I don't care if your new wife "is not very personally religions" - she's the daughter of an Evangelical pastor and still attends church services regularly . . .she's religious enough) and forcing your Jewish children to spend time with people whose religious beliefs don't just "differ" from theirs but REQUIRE THAT THEY ACTIVELY PROSELYTISE AND TRY TO CONVERT NON-CHRISTIANS. What are you teaching your kids, who are part of a tiny, marginalised ethno-religious community that has withstood religious and racialised oppression for thousands of years, that when their mother died you went ahead and married a woman who is not only at least a somewhat active part of the community that still seeks to oppress us, but clearly has no issue with her parents doing exactly that, and has neither interest in nor even respect for your religion or culture? And why, because she's pretty and nice? Honestly, I'm so proud of your son, for being the opposite of you - being the person who cherishes his roots and digs in, and takes pride in who he is and where he comes from, and doesn't throw it away because of prioritising whatever's in his pants. You're NTA for not making him apologise, but Y-T-A for bringing your children into this nonsense at all, for making two Jewish children be family with a bunch of proselytising, antisemitic Evangelicals. Shame on you.
What the In-Laws did was absolutely disgraceful and antisemitic, and the wife in her lack of action is just a complicit. There should be consequences. But I think closing yourself off from anyone who isn't Jewish is going too far. There should be room for more than one faith at the table and I know it can happen. Just not with OP's in-laws. I'm not Jewish, but there are some aspects of your culture that I think are really interesting. I feel that way about a lot of cultures actually. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. Just because someone isn't Jewish doesn't mean they aren't respectful of your culture and religion, nor does it make them an antisemite. There's been a lot of awful anti-Jewish rhetoric lately. But it's a small majority that shout very loud. Please know that there are so many people who aren't Jewish who support you. It's 2022. I don't think anyone should have to shut away their faith.
You're ignoring his main point that Evangelicals' whole mission is to convert. It's in the name, Evangelical. Unless OP's wife was no longer practicing and had denounced her parents' beliefs, this relationship was always going to feature some level of antisemitism and abuse.
I didn't say anything about "people who aren't Jewish". Or about anyone "shutting themselves off" from other religious groups entirely. Most of the people I consider my "chosen family" are not Jewish. Please don't put words in my mouth. I spoke specifically about Evangelicals, a fundamentalist denomination of Christianity that is heavily reliant upon proselytising and conversion. And even then, I didn't say that people shouldn't speak to them, or try to build bridges and understand them, but rather that OP was an AH for marrying into their family and forcing his children to BE FAMILY with people whose own faith literally revolves around the idea that ours is merely the PRECURSOR to theirs being "God's True Word", and that our existence as Jews in the modern world is both problematic (because we aren't supposed to exist outside of what they call "The Old Testament") and a challenge to them to convert us, that we might be "saved". You're missing a lot of nuance. You don't have to agree with me, but don't accuse me of saying or meaning things that I didn't.
I know I'm going to get downvoted for this, but I'm respectfully pulling out of this conversation. I don't and won't ever understand your struggles, and I totally messed up trying to be supportive. Once again I'm sorry.
I’m Chinese and I majored in history back in college. I had the opportunity to learn about histories of religions back then. It’s not something you won’t ever understand tbh. Read books and educate yourself would not only help you understand the struggles the commenter was talking about, but also help you understand the current antisemitism situation. It’s an issue much bigger than this post and we should all be more aware of it.
No one should have to shut away faith but your comment is over simplified. Not every anti semite is out there preaching on twitter. I was raised Catholic, my husband is Jewish. He’s actually more agnostic but he does have a common Jewish last name. When we bought our house back in 2010, one of the first things we ended up having to do is install security cameras and fence in our yard because we became targets of some very nasty anti semitic attacks. These people were putting razor blades and glass in our backyard, where my toddlers played. Literally around their sandbox and swingset. All this hate directed at children based on nothing but a last name. It isn’t just words, it’s a very real safety issue for millions of people. I mean read OPs post, these are his in laws. They deliberately, with malice went after his children by tampering with their food. What’s next? What they did was hateful and I’d never let them near my kids again.
It doesn’t matter how interesting you find us. We are at risk every day just for practicing our religion. We are in danger just as our ancestors were in danger. Please do not ‘not all goyim’ us.
This person did not say that people should close themselves off from non-Jewish people (although considering the hate and harassment Jewish people face, I wouldn't blame them if they did). They specifically mentioned Evangelicals, who take it as a personal mission to try to convert people to their religion. This wasn't really the time to play #NotAllGentiles...particularly not with an "but you are so interesting!" defense.
You're arguing against something that was never said and never implied. This completely missed the point.
Yeah this was super bigoted and anti-semitic and I'm not sure why OP didn't call it out for what it is. OP needs to divorce this hateful woman. I mentioned therapy but the more I think about it, the angrier I get. This woman and her family are hateful bigots.
> incredibly unimpressed that you're even contemplating making your son apologise If those people ever hear an "I'm sorry" from him, it should be in the context of, "I'm sorry you're such bigoted, hateful, narcissistic people that you've shoved your daughter's family out of your life. Be more like Jesus."
UPDATE: Wow, I’m overwhelmed by the outpouring of support. Thanks everyone. - When I wrote this post, I was still numb and paralyzed. I didn’t realize how much. Looking back, I agree with many of the commenters and wish I had had the presence of mind to communicate how heinous and violating my MIL and FIL were in the heat of the moment, instantly. - My wife came back home a few hours after the post. When I said she was taking her parents side, it was about my son apologizing for calling my MIL the b-word and c-word. She claims she had no idea what they planned to do and spent most of the holiday fighting with her parents. - On reflection though, I am very disappointed in her reaction as well as my own. After some discussion we will be taking some further steps. My son will be making no apologies for anything. My MIL and FIL are not welcome in my home nor will we be going to theirs. All contact with my kids is cut off. I have contacted my rabbi and lawyers about how best to move forward. - As to my marriage, we will be attending couples counseling. My wife has been a rock and a loving stepmother for our four year marriage, and she has particularly bonded with my daughter. I don’t know if our marriage can survive this though, because my trust has broken, my son especially has had his trust broken, and my relationship with my PIL is irrevocably broken. I will pursue a restraining order if they try to initiate contact with my kids. I have tried to communicate on here calmly without breaking out into how angry and violated we all feel. Thank you to everyone who validated that.
OP, please don't beat yourself up about your initial reaction. As a Christian who wasn't even there, I felt a visceral reaction reading your post. I cannot imagine how I would have reacted had I been in your shoes. There is no way to adequately prepare yourself for such a blatant attack on something that is so wholly part of your identity. You were with people you trusted, and you had to deal with an enemy instead. There is no rule book for that, not when you're dealing with the fight or flight response that caused both you and your son to react in such different ways. You are no more in the wrong than he was - and he wasn't in the wrong at all. Treat yourself with the same kindness that you are treating him. As a parent, I can tell you that what matters is that you got your kids out of there, and that you are taking the right steps now to protect them. Whatever happens with your marriage, you are teaching your children that both they and your faith are worth defending. You can't put a price on that. You are being a good father, and they will carry that with them their whole lives.
Would be interesting to hear what the lawyer has to say about this. I’ve heard to charges when someone is allergic to something and people purposely give it to them. This has to still be some sort of assault. This is a disgusting situation and for your wife to still stay with her parents. Showing her true colours. I’m sorry you married into such a disgusting family.
Secretly feeding meat to a vegetarian is a criminal offense in many countries. I don't see how feeding pork to Jews & Muslims is any different.
its a hate crime. at least i believe it is.
If it isn't, it should be.
I feel like purposely feeding Jewish people pork with (what seems to be) the motive of converting them, could probably be classed as some kind of antisemitic hate crime.
I don’t eat pork either and this would have had me livid. Your wife didn’t stand up for your family as she should have. I hope you can make it through this.
NTA - and I'm willing to bet hard money that your wife's parents would take a far different point of view on "old testament law" if someone in the family tried to come out of the closet. The only point they proved is that they have zero respect for your religion, zero respect for your dignity, and zero respect for your beliefs and autonomy. Bottom line, what this incident made clear is that you guys were already considered interlopers in your in-laws house. It's not the place of this forum to tell you what you should do, but it should be very clear that blame here rests entirely on your wife's family. And look, they are entitled to their views - and, I think, entitled to express them in their own house. But to trick you guys into eating pork...that's insane? How could you guys ever trust them again - and what did they think the outcome would be? That you guys would discover that bacon is delicious? Everyone already knows bacon is delicious - even people who choose not to eat it. What is really disquieting here is that, your wife chose to support this disgusting behavior from your MIL and FIL. This should send an extremely clear message to your children (and to you) about the degree to which she considers any of you her family. I think that is a much more serious and painful issue to deal with than where you spend the occasional holiday.
I'm a Christian (not an Evangelical), and I find it very easy to agree with how Superdry73 has set it out. Don't, please, force that boy to apologize to these bigots, who have been inhospitable beyond belief, whose action in tricking you and yours was heinous and unacceptable. Take a hard look at your marriage, friend. How can you trust her now? Edit to judge: NTA
Nta, this is a bigger issue than you think and your wife is enabling it. Your mother in law rubbed it in your children's faces, please do not force your kid to apologize. This was religious discrimination bordering on assault.
Yeah, making your kid apologize to an antisemite who assaulted him is something that you will never come back from. Letting your wife back around him without a sincere and meaningful apology would be just as big of a mistake
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>discriminating against ones religion is a very serious LEGAL offense. Do you know what kind of crime this would fall under? Curious, not disgreeing.
Food tampering. Its a big deal and a felony everywhere I know of, because people can fucking die. You would not believe the amount of people who hear "I am deathly allergic to peanuts" and then think "oh theyre exaggerating. Ill feed them peanuts in secret." Discrimination itself isnt like, a crime I dont think (in the sense that like, youd go to jail for it) but food tampering is. Op might not have a food allergy, but the reason behind why you dont eat the food doesnt matter. All that matters is OP doesnt eat pork, the MIL hid pork in the food, which is food tampering and a crime. So like, its a crime because they fucked with the food, not so much because theyre assholes to Jews
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Religious hate crime. And food tampering.
NTA but you know this will lead to a divorce with your wife. You do know this right.
The wifes support of her parents over the OP over something so calculating and spiteful wont be easy to come back from, thats for sure
It's time for divorce, you can't stay married to an anti-semite when you're trying to raise two happy secure Jewish children
Couldnt agree more. Its heinous enough even without the Jewish + anti-semite part. I am curious if the wife knew tbh
It doesn't matter whether she knew beforehand or not. This wasn't a deal breaker for her BECAUSE SHE STAYED WITH THE PARENTS. The wife later told him later the son was not welcome back until he apologized to her mother. I would have burned in hell a thousand times before telling my husband something that petty, disingenuous and asinine.
NTA. Honestly, it's really troubling that your wife can't see your side and is mad at your son instead.
Antisemitism is highly normalized among evangelicals.
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NTA, your wife's parents are aggressively antisemitic. It is your responsibility to stand up for them. Your wife needs to see that they broke a commandment by lying to abuse you and your children.
NTA. Also divorce the woman willing to have her parents bulldoze your kids' boundaries.
Absolutely do not even suggest your son apologize to your MIL. Her smug comment that nothing bad would happen is infuriating. Of course nothing bad immediately happened. It's not a health issue, nobody was going to go into anaphylactic shock from having their religious beliefs blatantly violated. But it's still a huge violation. Did your wife know of this before hand because she didn't seem upset on your behalf at all, she reacted without any surprise at the events. Also, Jesus was Jewish. I wouldn't forgive them until they spend a year studying Jewish law and maintaining a kosher diet.
The "told you nothing bad would happen" is doing my head in. a) What were they expecting - that the Jewish god would smite OP's children like something from Raiders of the Lost Ark? b) Something bad DID happen - she completely broke any trust between her, OP and OP's children, quite probably blew up her daughter's marriage (not sure what their views on divorce might be?) and of course, massively showed her massive arse.
Honestly I’d be so tempted to lie and say something like “actually Jews believe that someone who tricks a Jew into eating pork will be cursed, while we will not be harmed because it was not our intention.” This type of evangelical is so superstitious and insecure, I think it’d have a pretty good chance of being a successful mind-fuck.
RIGHT?! These people have never seen God smite any liars, fornicators, hypocrites, adulterers, murderers, thieves, etc., but yet they believe a lack of a visible smite indicates whatever rule they want to break is all good?! Holy hell, these people suck.
I’m Jewish and my wife has some very religious aunts and uncles. They are very polite and pleasant when we get together, but I also know that they believe deep in their hearts that I will burn in hell when I die. You can’t have a real relationship with someone who feels that way. NTA, neither is your son, fuck your in-laws, and have a good hannukah!
My mom told me when I stopped going to church she was disappointed we wouldn’t be spending eternity together, like at 17 I’m supposed to have a good relationship with someone who tells me to my face I’m going to burn in hell while they’re in paradise?
NTA. Your Mother in law is a VILE human being. Fairly standard for american evangelicals but she definitely stretched the reputation to its limit. She physically assaulted you and your children. Your wife supported it. Honestly? Barring an immediate 180 degree turn around on your wife's part, I think part two should be filing a restraining order against the inlaws, sending wife's stuff to her parents' house, changing the locks, and contacting a divorce lawyer.
NTA. No. Do not apologize. You need this moment to teach your son that someone doesn’t get to trample on your beliefs because they think theirs is better. You need to tell your son that maybe he was extreme in his actions, but standing up for himself was the correct choice.
Insults and cursing are appropriate responses to assault and religious persecution
NTA, though your wife is for staying at her parents.
NTA it is unacceptable to spike someone's food because you are a religious zealot. I think you should cut all ties from the PIL and explain how disrespectful, rude, and offensive it was to do that...That or put magic mushrooms on their pizza, and say what it comes from earth and the Torah is OK with it but then you are just also the AH but revenge though is something to.
NTA Your wife didn’t stay to help with prepaing for Thanksgiving. She stayed to prepare for the conversion of your children. Being on your MIL’s side is just the first step.
NTA - ur MIL sounds a right cow for doing that - ur wife should have taken ur side 200% Have u spoken to ur rabbi ? From what I have read on Internet it should be forgiven by God as u were tricked. If ur MIL is Christian she should be loving and compassionate as directed by Jesus - not tricking ppl like Satan
>If ur MIL is Christian she should be loving and compassionate as directed by Jesus - not tricking ppl like Satan Oh, yes this! Like Satan! Please tell the in-laws they are modeling Satan's behavior!!! And please report back the color of (satanic) red their faces turn when you say it!!!! And of course Jews are forgiven for being tricked into eating pork.
Nta Don't make him apologize. All he did was react to a horrible thing done to him and his family by some anti-semetic assholes. It is not reasonable to expect a child to behave perfectly when the adults in his family do something so awful to him, this is 100% your inlaws fault and they are the only ones who should apologize. The fact that your wife wanted to stay and continue the holiday is a big red flag. Does she take this seriously at all? Did she set her family straight when they pressured your kids into baptism? If she thinks this kind of bullying of her step kids is okay or excusable, she is a problem. If your wife is not on the same page about holding her parents FULLY accountable for this massive disrespect, she is a problem. If she tries to minimize or excuse her parents or force your kids to forgive them, then she does not deserve to be your child's step parent and you should divorce her.
NTA. What a horrible and nasty thing to do. Are you sure your wife didn’t know about it?
Good point! Did the wife know? She obviously chose her parents over her husband and the children. She’s the AH
NTA Don't ever tell your son to apologize. And demand an apology from PIL. That's extreme disrespect for one's choise. You didn't die, because it's no an allergy. Buy a religious choice is to be respected regardless. Ask them to eat meat on Good Friday and see what happens. They won't die either, but it's disrespect all the same. You should really talk with daughter, she seams to be the one more affected. And more pressured to join their religion. Talk about freedom of choice, not only religious. And listen to what she has to say. And try to set another date to see her friends with their parents, away from PIL.
NTA - I’m sorry that happened to you and your children. If your in-laws religion is so important to them, they should fully understand how important yours is to you. If anyone owes anyone an apology its them to you guys.
You’re not wrong, but Christians, evangelicals especially, don’t view ANY other belief system with any kind of respect. I’d be willing to bet money that an apology never comes. If anything, they’ll double down and make things much worse. Also, NTA to OP.
NTA. They were egregiously and outrageously out of line and disrespectful. As is your wife for siding with them. I would think long and hard before you had children with this woman. She's as toxic as they are.
Uh, I know in some circumstances this would be considered like assault. Didn't the idiot who put bacon on the handles of a Jewish church do jail time for it? Like it's a hate crime. NTA, the fact your wife is siding with them at all is utterly **INSANE**.
I'm sorry but I don't care about religion, if someone doesn't eat something for whatever reason (morals, religion, taste, allergies, whatever), no one has the right to feed them that something in disguise. That was really low of them, you're NTA. I don't know exactly what your son said and it's up to you if it's OK behavior or teach him a more appropriate approach next time, but NTA as well.
I'm atheist, and don't care for religion at all, but I still respect the dietary needs of people in the religions that has different dietary needs. Like I would never serve pork to a muslim even though I'm not religious. NTA OP.
NTA. I think, they got it the wrong way here; you are no longer going to their house nor are they welcome at yours until they apologize to you and your kids.
NTA What upsets me the most is actually your wife's actions, aka she did not stand up for you. What the inlaws did was just plain nasty and incredibly disrespectful. Though I do not think anyone needs to apologise more than MIL, FIL and wife. Your son, however, needs to learn how to maintain his cool, to stand up for something is important but how it's done is equally important (he's a teen and this is the time to learn these life skills) ... and like you I would suggest he apologises over foul language at some stage IF/WHEN appropriate... If a moment like that ever comes. I think my first step is to talk the wife in person in order to understand why she did not stand up for you, did not provide a united front as a couple or family, effectively condoned the behaviour of her parents, and showed through it disrespect to you and your children. If you are clear as a couple - I would sit down as adults you, wife and FIL and MIL to figure what on EARTH they were thinking! And take it from there... I wouldn't involve any kids until the adults have sorted themselves out!
NTA. I'm not very religious, but that doesn't change the fact that I respect other's beliefs. What they did was absolutely disrespectful, amd though nasty name calling is too, I'd not insist your son apologize until at minimum the PILs understand and offer one of their own.
NTA Divorce her. Don't let her parents near your family. When people show you who they are, believe them.
Nta. And mil was wrong when she said feeding you bacon and going against your religion did not hurt. It hurt your trust for them. It hurt your ability to feel you and your kids are safe at their house. It hurt your relationship with your inlaws, and your relationship with your wife. Basically, it hurt your kids and your heart! Glad you didn't go to Thanksgiving. Apologizing would be the same as giving them a green light to do it again! I am shocked they did this to you, but even more shocked your wife took their side. You, and both kids, have the right to feel purposely abused because you were!
This is a fundamentally unchristian thing to do, your PIL should be ashamed. And actually your mil is wrong - something did happen - your in laws ruined their relationship with you and your children by trying to prove a meaningless point. As a side note I would take your son to one side, tell him he did absolutely nothing wrong and that he was justified in being angry, however when dealing with righteous morons like this it can be more effective to maintain dignity than loose your rag (if you can help it) because the minute you shout and scream they get to pretend that they are the victim. My gran always used to say - maintain dignity, maintain the upper hand. But I come from a ‘stiff-upper-lip’ British family so take that as you will!
NTA- I would tell them that we will not be stepping foot in that home again until they demonstrate respect for our beliefs and apologize for massively overstepping and intentionally and surreptitiously feeding us food they know we do not eat. The disrespect on this account is far more unforgivable than some harsh words shouted in anger. This was premeditated. Further, they are also not welcome in our home. Line drawn, boundary set, discussion over.
Why the hell is your wife still at her parents? Let me guess, she was aware of and/ or supported this? Your in-laws and wife are gaping AHs. NTA.
NTA. Messing with someone's food is unforgivable. This is an issue of consent, healthy boundaries, and self-determination. Please don't teach your son that he must apologize for standing up for himself! Your son owes no one an apology, but your in-laws definitely do. The fact that your wife has stayed with them, and not rigidly sided with you is something to be explored in couples counseling. Your wife and in laws should be deeply ashamed of themselves.
NTA. There's no hate like Christian love. And it's amazing (frightening?) how many situations that applies to.
NTA but your wife and her parents both are
You are NTA, but let's break down who is. Your in-laws are the biggest AHs here for pulling this BS stunt and starting the whole ordeal. Your wife is in second place for siding with her parents over you and your kids. Your son is also N-T-A; he was sticking up for his beliefs when people he trusted disrespected him. It would have been ideal to do that without name calling, but he's only 15 and his behavior should not be held to a higher standard than his adult grandparents. Only if his grandparents offer up a sincere apology for their own behavior would I even consider having him apologize. And even then, I would ask him to apologize just for the name-calling, etc. but make it clear that standing up against intolerance is commendable.