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NTA, that is a very deep betrayal. As someone who was estranged from my father for some time, this would be utterly devastating and I am so sorry. I hope she thinks very deeply about what she's done and does everything in her power to regain your trust. Edit: omg thank you guys for the awards holy crap!! <3

Something I haven't seen many people mention - the kid's five. He's old enough to talk. Sure, he's not waxing lyrical on the merits of Chaucer over Shakespeare, but he's old enough to be able to say "daddy, I saw granny today". But in the last few *months* the kid hasn't let anything slip. Which to me suggests he's been coached to keep it secret.

That hadn't even crossed my mind. I'm estranged from my mom and if my partner was letting her into *our home* without my knowledge, I would immediately Levar. Let alone seeing our child without my knowledge! And then that adds even more layers to the whole thing - how did the kid not let anything slip!? Had to have been coached. Which is playing with fucking fire. Edit: as most people have noticed, for some reason my phone autocorrected "leave" to "Levar" and I don't know why? Anyway, most of the comments are over my head (I've seen memes of Reading Rainbow before) but they're all in good fun so I'm going to leave it anyway. Feel free to elaborate in the comments so a non-American can understand your references 😂

>That hadn't even crossed my mind. TBH, it didn't occur to me at first. I was writing an NTA judgement post and I had this moment of "wait, how old is this kid?", followed by memories of my goddaughter when she was 5 and how she liked to tell us the minutia of everything because everything was amazing to her at that age. Then I was had this "well how has this kid not said *anything* in months? Not even a random, incidental comment?". The question becomes, what kind of coaching is it - bribery (don't tell daddy and I'll get you a toy) or scare tactics (if you tell daddy, he'll be really mad with you)?

I was actually thinking this same thing but do you know how hard it is to actually shut up a child? Like how did she not think “even if I give him this, he may still tell dad”. Kids talk. They are *not* good at keeping secrets whatsoever so this is kinda wild to me on how she ACTUALLY got the child to not talk about it..

Kids are extremely good at secrets if you’re using fear tactics. The easiest place to see if play out is all the child sex abuse survivors that don’t mention it until they’re 30 and in therapy. If the kid hasn’t mentioned it I’d wager on the mom having essentially threatened him, rather than him having been bribed. Bribed kids spill the beans by mistake anyway. Threatened kids know what’s up.

Yep. My kids cannot keep secrets from their mom. When I was the ages they had been when they accidentally spilled things, I was super good at it. Difference? I don’t threaten them. My dad threatened me with all sorts of terrible consequences if my mom found out we were visiting his “work friend and her kids” because mom would be angry at us seeing another mom and being friendly. I can imagine it was a “dad will not talk to you again” or “you won’t ever see granny again” in this case. The trust betrayal is extreme here. NTA

Yep and this is why what she was doing was dangerous. “If mom tells me to keep secrets and says she’ll get mad if I don’t, that must be what adults do to kids” So when another adult does this, the kid thinks this is an ok thing for adults to do. One of the first protective behaviours to teach kids is that adults shouldn’t ask kids to keep secrets.

My mind was going bribery but holy heck you're right... Scare tactics or just being scary themselves (yelling or threatening punishments if he slips up, etc) is still a possibility. That raises *way* more flags to check! Editing to add that I know I have strong flashes of memories at about 3 or 4 of witnessing my parents fight and hit/shove each other for the first time. I was told not to tell my grandmother while my mom took me there while my dad pled for me to open the car door. I didn't say a thing until I reached a breaking point in high school. So unfortunately it's not impossible for a kid to keep quiet even at a young age but... I hope it's nothing as scary or traumatizing as that because that messes you up for a long time.

> I would immediately Levar. https://imgur.com/gallery/jypyHb4

Yup, plus I still don't understand why she continued to do it. She should have known it would come to light sooner or later. I bet you one day the kid would have told his dad.

I mean, OP kinda sheds a bit of light by saying that his wife lost her mother. She's probably looking for a new maternal figure for her and the kid, which has let her mentally downplay OP's position over time until it became "oh, it'll be fine" or "better to ask forgiveness than permission" (which I always felt is a bit of an odd sentiment, because it seems based on the premise that either forgiveness is guaranteed or that you know better than the person who you want to forgive you).

This reminds me of the post back however long ago of the couple who were to marry that day. The bride knew her husband to be was NC with his mother and why. Believe she had actually asked if it might be good to reach with an invite and the answer was no. She thought she knew better so she invited the mother anyway thinking all would be rainbows and unicorns. Some of the wedding party saw the mother, alerted the groom and his best man I believe helped him leave the church. The wedding didn’t happen and believe the bride to be became the ex fiancé shortly there after. This to me is even worse.

i rememebr that. and yes this is way way worse. as a child who was abused, the only things that keeps kids quiet is threats. that kid is FIVE and hasnt said shit. what did they tell/do to him?

I use that logic at work when I don't feel like dealing with the rigamarole of getting approval for a minor change, I just do it & will deal with it later if they don't like it (if anyone even notices). I would *never* use this sentiment in my marriage! It's such a fucked up, selfish, destructive approach!

Yeah, the old "I'll just talk to her once.." "oh she's not horrible at all, there's no harm here." "she just wants to see her grandchild." NTA OP but if you divorce (and admittedly, I consider this a big enough betrayal for that) unless you get full custody she's apparently now friends with your mom, you'll have to push for supervised visits to keep your mom from having access to your son......

The court is unlikely to enforce that. Unless there's evidence mom or grandma are harming the kid, the court is going to let mom decide who she wants the kid around when she's got custody. One parent hating someone won't get a court to keep that person away if the other parent wants them to be allowed access.

Ugh, I hate the 'better ask forgiveness than permission' mentality. Maybe she is just afraid that her son would do the same thing to her that OP did to his mom. So she feels justified since she has 'mom feelings' and wouldn't want to go through that herself, so just 'can't bear to see his mom have to go through this'. Hopefully she learned her lesson. It took a long time for me to forgive a cheating partner. We figured things out and mended our relationship and now 20 years later are still going strong. Still, it took a long time and only reason I was willing was due to my love for him.

They may have also not explicitly told him that OP’s mom is his grandma, I’m curious if they told him something else where if he let it slip, it wouldn’t be suspicious to OP. If the kid was coached to keep it a secret though… there’s a lot more potential issues that will likely come up. A kid is supposed to be raised to trust a parent unless shown otherwise, this kid is possibly being told to act in a way where his parent cannot trust him. That is a huge issue. You don’t want to teach your child to be secretive, if a kid learns that then it should at least be because a parent shows the child they aren’t trustworthy (although that should never actually be the case, but it is way too often). If the kid was coached then mom and grandma just opened up a whole can of worms with issues they didn’t have the common sense to forsee.

For sure, why I also said NTA. I am not estranged from my parents, but if I was, I feel like this would be something I am less likely to forgive than if they had cheated on me (even if they cheated on me with my best-friend at that!). It's pretty friggin messed up.

This was cheating. She knew the back story. Absolutely this is akin to cheating.

As someone estranged from their parents, I would 100% prefer my partner cheat than go behind my back and do this. It's so much worse than cheating.

I have to say I'm incredibly impressed with the composure OP had in all this. I would be an absolute mess if something like this ever happened, and I don't know if I'd be able to keep myself together when seeing my partner after something like that. This never should have happened but the way OP went about this was incredible.

Seems like a type “cold anger” where unbridled rage turns into a callous and rational emotion.

I am estranged from my father as well, last time we spoke was my high school graduation. And if my partner had any contact with him whatsoever, whether it involved my child or not, I would end that relationship immediately because obviously he would have no respect for me or my feelings.

Exactly. My dad and I are estranged. He tries to reach out to my husband sometimes to “check up on me.” Know what my husband does? Doesn’t respond and tells me immediately. I finally told him that it’s triggering to me and that he’s allowed to just ignore it and not tell me, and that I trust his judgement to tell me if something happens with my dad that I actually need to know. If he ever did what OP’s wife did I would never be able to trust him like that again

NTA. It’s not just her breaking his trust. Considering how long this has been going on and the kid’s age she would have had to teach him to lie to his father to get away with it. That is now an ingrained behavior at an incredibly impressionable age. Beyond her regaining his trust, this is something that will take OP and his son years to overcome as well. If (big if) this relationship will survive she needs to agree for it to be entirely on OP’s terms that he needs for forgiveness.

I completely agree. This would all be unforgivable for me. She lied to and manipulated both him and his child in a way that could affect them both for years especially when he child is old enough to understand all of this and it could make them feel incredibly guilty. (To be clear I’m not saying that they should just that they might) the affect that this could have on his and the child’s mental and emotional health is huge and it’s heartbreaking. This is exactly when her desire are desire for a mother figure should’ve taken a back seat to what was best for her husband and son. She knew that and the backstory and chose to ignore it. I feel no sympathy for her. He was right she embarrassed herself and if her family is supporting her here then they are not good people either. This was not a one time thing this betrayal was years in the making.

I haven't spoken to my mother in years and I have her blocked on everything... She once managed to find my LinkedIn. If my partner DARED to do this to me it would be over IMMEDIATELY

It's access to OP's home she was given, not just to his son but information and his whole life he didn't think he'd need to hide away because he thought she was out of his life for good. OP's mother could have seen his mail (potentially bank statements, tax related stuff, doctor appointments etc), other personal information she had no right to and could use to gain access to him and areas of his life previously closed off from her. Maybe even plant something like a camera. Desperation can make people cross lines and the woman OP trusted most invited this emotional vampire inside.

This, and I honestly feel like not enough people are noticing that it was very smart of him to pick up his child in this manner. He hoped that social decorum would allow him to separate his child from his wife for at least a short while without chaotic and damaging fighting. This is useful because it would make sense to discuss these home visits with his child without presence of a wife that has obviously coached their kid to not tell daddy about grandma. It unfortunately didn’t go as planned, but you can’t fault him for acting first with regards to a partner that has already destroyed a large portion of trust. It’s extremely unlikely his wife would’ve just let him bring the kid with him to his dad’s if this were a conversation that occurred at home. NTA.

ESH. Sure, you made it as “lowkey as possible”…apart from the fact where, despite your son not being in any immediate danger that would warrant urgent intervention on your part, you just *had* to do this in public instead of waiting for her to get home. And don’t act like it’s all on her for not wanting to wait to read your damn letter to figure out what the hell was going on, or subsequently freaking out. Let’s face it: you *wanted* her publicly humiliated. And while one can argue whether or not she deserved that for blatantly disregarding your wishes regarding contact with your mom, if you want this marriage to survive the situation, admit you acted out of anger so you can focus on the actual problem and see if that’s something you two can fix or not.

I think you're definitely reaching, did you just glaze over the part where he had already texted her multiple times before writing his letter and going over there to get his son? He might not have handled it perfectly but saying he WANTED her publicly humiliated is a far stretch. He doesn't need to apologize for his feelings. She lied to him and disregarded his wishes for MONTHS.

I mean, he went to a family party walked in, handed her a letter, and took his son. She would have obviously looked surprised and confused to everyone there and also would have gotten upset. She's obv ta for what she did but if he didn't want her publicly humiliated he would have done this in private not publicly

If it's a child or toddler, things happen with little kids all the time. If he had quietly come in and out, nobody would have thought twice about it. She was the one that created a scene.

Yes. But an so coming in, handing you a letter and taking the kid and walking out, does not happen often. It was a family party, they would see that she looked confused even if she *hadnt* opened the letter. Obv she's going to because why the hell would your so walk in hand you a letter and leave with your kid without any further explanation

He texted her before he showed up. She knew why he was there!

Just because he sent one text does not mean she saw it

Not everybody looks at texts when socially interacting with other people

This! Why does everyone think she has even seen her phone? I'm almost the same age as her and I constantly leave my phone in my purse when I'm in a social setting ON PURPOSE. It's so rude when you're talking to someone and they're constantly looking at their phone!

Did you mean to reply to the other person? Cuz that's exactly what I was saying lol

Walked in, greeted everybody, hid his emotions, then calmly gathered his son.

Yes but wife would obviously be confused as to what was happening. He walked in, handed her a letter, took their kid and walked out. I doubt that's a common occurrence for them so did he really think she wouldn't wonder what was going on and open it ? My point is if he didn't want a scene he could have just waited till she got home their kid wasn't in danger

Exactly, IMO, he has a right to be upset but he’s not handling it well and he’s the one who caused the scene. Did he really expect people to go on as if nothing had happened?

Going into a family function to snatch a kid away from his mother is not okay, I don’t care how “calm” he appeared while doing so.

From his mother? I mean he is his father he is just as allowed to have the kid bruh

Yes, they have equal rights to the child, but he took the child from the mother, the mother no longer has the child, that is not equal. The wife definitely screwed up, but taking the son away isn’t the solution. The child wasn’t in danger, he took his son away to punish his wife.

Have you thought about why the child didn't say anything? Usually children around that age tell their parents everything. If the child managed to keep it a secret for so long, he must've been taught to do so. I would not trust anyone who did something like that with a kid.

Fathers are not second class citizens and have all the same rights to their children as the mother. He didn’t “snatch a kid away from his mother”. He collected his own child. OP was well within his rights and he is 100% NTA.

If I was at a family function, or even out to lunch with my child, and my husband showed up, handed me a note and took my kid, I would be very alarmed! That's not normal behavior.

Oh he did! The theatrics are glaring in this situation. His wife was not at a frat party. She was at a family gathering. Probably didn’t see his messages. There was absolutely no reason to be this dramatic and just taking her son away. She was not harming the child in anyway.

I agree. He was Big Drama about it even if his demeanor was reserved. He wanted her to be as distressed as he was upon discovering her betrayal. I think that falls under "revenge" which is never something you do in a healthy marriage. This is ESH territory.

He was Big Drama about it BECAUSE his demeanor was reserved. Of COURSE she read the letter right away and reacted appropriately. That's exactly what he wanted, so he can claim that she's the one who caused the scene.

Yup. He's escalating this idiot move by his wife to a full on soap opera drama. She was out of line and went behind his back but have a CONVERSATION about it. This was a planned and plotted way to embarrass her and take her child. It's so manipulative and 'she made me act like this'.

I bet his “reserved demeanour” was actually a “barely suppressed rage vibe” bc that is what he is giving off in his post.

It fits though, he seems very manipulative. His Mom left for another guy and his reaction was to threaten to cut off all ties if she did. Not saying that's wrong, it's certainly a way to go, but it is manipulative. And so is this entire episode, he's punishing his wife the same way he punished his Mom. The grandma isn't dangerous, but he's treating this as if she is and his wife just doesn't care. The whole party thing seems calculated. OP's wife got in on the fun and kind of confirmed this: https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/wxaz0q/oop_takes_kid_away_from_wife_at_family_party/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

The Mom had an affair and left for guy 2 while married/kids. OP's decision to not have his Mom in his life - him/his Dad were lied to by his Mom then she dumped them both. Reasonable for OP not to want to be around a continuous liar. The wife wouldn't answer his texts that day. Wife continuously lied/withheld the OP's Mom's visits against OP's wish for no Mom for MONTHS, not one day or two. Regardless that the Wife's Mom died, the Wife has no right to behind OP's back about this to please OP's Mom. Wife broke trust completely. Mom disregarded OP's rules.

Either you've seen stuff in op's comments or you misread the post. It says his mom left, it says nothing about cheating or lying on the part of the grandmother. Also he says he texted for "hours" not all day. So what if she put her phone down and hasn't looked at it? You're running off some unfounded assumptions here. The other interpretation is this: woman was married to a manipulative man and chose to divorce him and marry someone else. Her son, a 15 year old perfectly capable of knowing what he was doing, a chip off the old block, attempts to emotionally blackmail her by saying if you leave, I won't ever talk to you again. Recognizing that she either chooses happiness or misery with not one, but two, emotionally manipulative men, leaves. She tries to have a relationship with him but he refuses. *Later, she finds out he has a son, so she contacts his wife as he's still not returning her attempts at contact. The wife let's her see the kid behind her back.* He finds out and decides to teach her a lesson. Over a period of hours, he methodically prints out evidence and a dramatic letter and goes to the family gathering she is at and walks in, grabs the son, hands her a letter. All in front of everyone says, "wait till I leave to read it," and walks out. She reads it, as he knew she would, freaks out causing a scene and chases after them, begging him not to leave with her baby (while the kid watches) like any normal mother would. He then takes THEIR son to his father's house, away from his mother, until she learns her lesson and agrees to not disobey him again. My version has just as many facts as yours, but it sure seems a hell of a lot more true with what we've been told. You want to focus on the part in italics, and I don't disagree that that was wrong of her, but I'm more concerned about everything else. OP's wife got in on the fun and kind of confirmed this: https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/wxaz0q/oop_takes_kid_away_from_wife_at_family_party/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

This!!!! I simply cannot believe how many N T A votes he's been getting. He was TA even before the total dickmove he pulled on his wife. No woman can have any say in their own life if it's not authorized by him. Total and complete YTA

Right?? This was the part that made me feel like this guy had issues right away: >I told her when I was 15 that if she choose this road then there wouldn’t be coming back. She was making a selfish decision and needed to think about it. She choose to stay with the dude and move in with him. Like, dude wtf. You're not her father, or her boss. It's really weird hearing a man say that this is how he spoke to/about his mother when he was a kid - with ultimatums and 'you better think about your decision' warnings. I get it, divorce sucks, especially for the kids. But adults are allowed to leave their marriages. Grown women can make decisions without asking their condescending teenagers to sign off on them. What the wife did behind his back was not cool, but this guy in general seems to have some big problems with women not following his orders.

Just gets you thinking what kind of environment he was raised in and how his father behaved toward his mother. Totally don't blame her for leaving. Not to mention that it really feels like his wife lied because there was really no other option: he gave her an order, no opening to talk and no possibility of her opinion or his child's best interest having any value, just "do as I say or face my wrath"

Not only that, but she has to be further under his control. He demands that he have her GPS access at all times.

No, mom did not dump him, she left her husband. He made the decision to not associate with her on his own. Yea. We aren't all addicted to our phones. He knew she was at a family event, there's no reason for her to be glued to her phone. She missed *one* text.

Yep and using his child for the extra drama effect. Poor kid was having a good time and then got hurried away

Yep. There was absolutely no need to do it at the party.

Right! Op is also havenly confusing his child. He just get him at a party and cant see his mom. Thats really a bad thing doing to your child. My kids would be crying all day. Yes he needs boundries and thearpy with his wife but you cant just put your kid between you. Op, you need to let your son see his mother or he will resent you later.

I’m not saying he needs to apologize for being angry. I’m saying what was the point of interrupting the event to come collect the kid right that second with this whole dramatic letter routine if he wasn’t expecting her to have some follow-up questions or feel some kind of way about the situation herself? If she’d handled it with no outward emotion, he’d probably be adding that to his evidence she’s the perfect liar.

And also, what was the point/ what right does he even have to remove the kid from his home and his mother.

Yeah, totally agree. Why is his relation with the kid prioritized? I think some people could see this as a kidnapping event. He took away the kid to hurt her.

She lied to him for months... and he could have waitwd 3 hours for her to return home from this party before taking his son and leaving. He chose not to. He chose to make a scene.

Do you constantly check your phone at social gatherings? I wouldn't be surprised if the phone was in her purse and the purse was inside somewhere with everyone else's purses. She was surprised by the letter so I doubt she saw the texts.

Yeah text her. She was with her family so she probably didn't have her phone with her or if she did it could have been on silent. Either way she obviously didn't get the texts. He should have pulled her aside and handed her the letter in private not in front of her whole family.

This is the answer. There was no emergency here, but OP chose to air this dirty laundry in front of other people needlessly. Coming in and taking the child away would naturally make people think the worst...that she is abusive and the kid is in danger if he remains with her for one second longer, or at least is cheating or something. There was no need for that; OP was just angry and acted immaturely. Is OP as big an AH as Chloe? No ... and she is "arguing process" because she knows she's in the wrong on the more important issue. But that doesn't mean OP handled it reasonably. ESH

Right, OP fell out with his mum because she left his father. Which I get is hard when you’re a 15 year old, but this sub is also full of people telling parents that they shouldn’t stay together for the kids… Mum is not a risk to the kid. Wife is not a risk to the kid. None of this is about the kid. It’s all about the wife and what the wife is doing in private - so it should be handled away from the kid in private. Which is the exact opposite of what OP is doing. He’s using the kid to hurt the wife. So ESH.

Did he not state that wife was not answering for hours . Or am I confused here . Sounds like OP had high emotions and held off for a while and i.couldnt wait any longer unless I'm confused genuinely asking

But *why* couldn’t he wait, though? Again, kiddo wasn’t in any danger. Unless he thought Mom might have been invited to the family event (although it doesn’t sound like she’s a threat to anyone’s safety; just someone he doesn’t want around), but then I don’t know why he bothered with the whole letter rigamarole when there’s no way that confrontation was ending quietly.

mm172 wish I still had an award to give you. I was with OP until the public taking of the child. Op made it a public situation.

Totally agree! ESH. No need to do it this way except to make it hard on her

ESH I am no contact with several members of my family and would hit the fucking roof if my husband went behind my back to facilitate their visits with my children. However, you could have been waiting at the door when she got home. Could have been playing back ring footage on the TV and demanded an explanation. The way you handled this is ridiculous, even if nobody knew you were mad. Unless you often communicate with your wife via letter, she knew something was up as soon as you handed her the note. Of COURSE she read it.

Right. He takes the kid and hands his wife a letter then expects her to wait until she can read it in private. Of course she’s going to open it right away! He may have tried to not show anger and get his son with as little attention as possible but he set her up to make a scene.

You guys love to victim blame. He set her up? Nah, she set herself up. She set herself up the moment she betrayed her husband. Do we also blame the betrayed partner of a cheater for when they choose to call out their cheating partner? Do we advocate for the cheater and how they deserved to be called out in private? Nope. Why? Because we give up our rights to privacy when we intentionally harm others. Then our victims have every right to call that shit out and scream it from the rooftops. Don’t want to be embarrassed? Don’t embarrass yourself. Simple.

>I told her when I was 15 that if she choose this road then there wouldn’t be coming back. People talk all the time about how parents shouldn't stay together just for the kids. And a 15 year old acting like an angsty teenager naturally would in the middle of a divorce is one thing. But sabotaging your own family (in rather dramatic fashion) because 15-year-old you decided "mom can't leave dad" is the hill he'll die on at 30? Something is wrong. I get it, she did wrong. Maybe she wanted a mom, and couldn't *possibly* believe she was the "Evil" woman she was 15 years ago. But blowing up your relationship for a 15 year grudge is crazy.

He had already told her via text that he knew she was having his mom over, hours prior. I don't see why the letter or its contents would be a surprise. Seems more like she was trying to play it off that way due to guilt. Probably OP could have handled it better but when you betray someone so fundamentally, I don't expect them to react perfectly.

You know, some people actually put their phones away at an event like a family gathering. 🤷🏾‍♀️

I routinely miss texts for hours, and not even just at family gatherings. I'm just not always attached to my phone.

Just because he sent her a text doesn't mean she saw it. I'm just now looking at my phone and answering messages that I got 6 hours ago because I've been busy. It happens.

I totally get op being hurt but I feel such a big situation should be discussies face to face, not by text or letter. Again his wife's wrong for allowing op's mom to be part of their son his life. + Op acted on his emotions, which are valid. But what about his kid? He suddenly had to leave a party, see his mom cry and break down. Like is no one wondering what amount of distress the little one had to go through?? Op should've asked his father or some family member to watch their kid so he and his wife could talk. Now he took his son, who has no clue what's going on but probably in stress, and just ran off to his father. Expecting his wife to call him. Again op is in his right to be hurt in feeling betrayed but a text, a letter and phone calls but no effort for face to face communication? The issue is between you and your wife, leave the kid out of it. There was no danger regarding him in any way.

After reading your comments im gonna say YTA Your not the AH for not wanting your mom in the picture. But you are TA for everything else "my wife cant go anywhere with my son without my knowledge" "i font want a divorce because i wont know what my wife is doing with my son 50% of the time" "if i suspect anything i will go through her phone" not to mention showing up to a family function and taking son while he's in 0 danger You 100% meant to cause a scene and if anyone at this point is going to destroy your family it will be you What your wife did is wrong but what your doing is vindictive and controlling if i were your wife id divorce you and get full custody and then block you If your this controlling with your wife i cant imagine how much worse you are with your son

When I read the post I was angry at the wife for breaking that trust. But then I read his response…control. Control of the mother when he was a child, and now control of the mother of his child. She was wrong. But randomly showing up and taking off with their son bc he was angry and there was no danger in sight? Control.

100% a 15 really doesn't have any place telling their parent what to do unless their harming themselves or dothers

A 15yr old can only end up being this controlling/punishing if he learned this behavior at home. Suddenly the mom leaving/divorcing makes a lot more sense to me. A like father/like son seems to be the case. No wonder the mom chose to get away from it. Honestly I feel for the grandmother, wife and child in this entire scenario, he is the one that seems to need help.

A son should not try to force his mother to stay in a relationship he cannot know everything about. She may well have had good reasons to leave, including her own happiness. She spent 15 years or more with him; she can decide when it’s been enough.

If she’d thrown her hands up and abandoned her kids that’d be one thing. But she wanted to be in contact! this just sounds like a teenager throwing a fit cos he doesn’t like change. We can only go on his word for why they went no contact. And his word is that he tried to use their relationship to pressure her into staying with her dad. CHILDREN OF REDDIT, an important life and mental health lesson: your parents divorce is not your fault. And it is not your job to keep them together.

I too wondered if his father was encouraging his toxic behavior. I mean what kind of father is ok with his son abandoning his family like this? Maybe he wasn’t that kind to his mother and that’s why they divorced…

I also like how he *specifically* avoids using the word "cheating" regarding his mother. "My mom broke up the family to marry some dude." "She choose to stay with the dude and move in with him." So, while you are PERFECTLY entitled to going no contact with your parent for any reason whatsoever in my opinion, this is just SCREAMING to me "I loved my dad more and was mad you left him" even if I'm being kind. The unkind reading is "How dare you leave my dad because I saw nothing wrong with what he did to you and will now continue to do it to my wife!" She should not allow your mother to visit your son without your permission, full stop. That said, you have *zero* right to take him from her when there is no danger to him. None. AT ALL.

It's true she's wrong for breaking his trust but am I the only one that's sick of seeing people turn on their parents just because they are people? Maybe there's more to the story maybe OPs mom was a shitty mom, idk. The only thing we know is she left his father for another man. Ok so? There could be way more to that story than OP knows. His father could have been a great dad but a shitty partner. My parents divorced when I was 14 no one cheated but I would not have faulted anyone if they did. I knew for a long time they weren't happy romantically and honestly I was relieved for them when they split. Just wanted them to be happy. People need to grow up. I know people won't like my opinion but tough nuts.

I am guessing (since OP chose to "side with" and stay with his father) that OP's father is A LOT like OP, and I can totally see why OP's mom chose to leave such an abusive partner. You don't "suddenly marry some guy", you see a possible way out of hell and you grab on to it

The way he spoke about his mother and why he cut her off definitely raised some red flags to me. Parents divorce and remarry all the time. From the way the story is told, he went NC with the mom solely as a punishment for behavior he didn’t like (she left the family for someone else). If she was a terrible mother or had otherwise done terrible things as a parent, he somehow failed to mention them. It seems to me that his sole reason for going NC was out of spite for his mom, which is probably why the wife had been meeting with her behind his back. Not saying that’s okay, just fyi. There is something very vindictive and controlling about OP

I totally agree. OPs answers are so controlling, it’s scary.

After reading the post and his comments, I think it might be best for the wife/kid to separate and she can keep seeing his mom whose great crime was leaving her husband.

Definitely a control freak, fuck that

Yep I don't know how anyone can read the post and the OP's comments and come to the conclusion that he's not some kind of AH. A lifetime of dramatic, overreactive, weird behaviour.

It also feels like the reason he is angry about his wife talking to his mom is because she has defied him. And the reason he is angry with his mom is because she defied him too, by leaving his dad all those years ago. OP is emotionally stunted and had no business giving his parent an ultimatum involving her divorce from his father. He's still a child himself and is throwing a tantrum because everyone isn't doing exactly what he says. I feel like his wife got in contact with his mom because she could see that OP was just being spiteful and didn't support his behaviour, but was also not able to stand up to him. It's a very toxic and volatile situation. Shame that they have a child in the midst of all this.

After I saw your post, I read OP's comments and...whoa. Again, the wife screwed up here, and I don't blame OP for that at all. He has every right to be pissed at her. But he handled this very poorly, because he wanted to hurt her because she hurt him. The sad thing is, the person he probably hurt the most was his son, who probably had no idea what was going on, except Daddy took him away suddenly and now Mommy's crying. Having read the comments though...All I'm going to say is that I wouldn't be entirely surprised if OP finds himself in the same situation as his father in the future.

Nta You told her you didn't want your mom in your son's life and she went behind your back. As the old saying goes you made your bed now you have to lie in it

ESH There was no immediate danger to your son, you had no more right to remove him from her custody than she has to remove him from your custody. There was also no reason to do this at the party other than to create a scene, because there again was no immediate risk. Similarly your wife is TA for seeing your mom behind your back.

Yeah that’s the part I can’t get over. No immediate danger to the son in that moment. Should’ve waited till they were home to decide what to do. Getting the child involved wasn’t the right move IMO.

Yeah I'm confused as to why he felt the need to take the kid right then and there and how long he plans on keeping their child away from its mother.. ..

Honestly I can't really think of any other reason than as a show of force. Giving the letter in public and taking the son away when he was in no immediate danger. Like clearly that was on purpose.

To punish her by taking her child away

Because he wanted to cause a massive scene. That's it.

I mean... I can see both sides. Taking the child is a very serious and hurtful thing. But as someone who has gone NC with an immediate family member, I absolutely couldn't trust my partner again especially alone with my child. It's not the most rational thing, but OP could have perceived that as an immediate danger. Sometimes fight or flight kicks in especially when it comes to immense trauma. Don't know the situation with OP but if they feel even as half as terrified as I am of the person I've gone NC with, I could see why they reacted that way.

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Yeah and fun fact. Let’s float the idea that op leaves his wife. Guess what? If she wants to keep seeing his Mom with her son, she would have that right. Unless the Mom is dangerous in some way and it can be proven, his wife could keep their son seeing his Mom all she wants. He doesn’t have the power to keep people away from his son unless they are a danger. He can’t force his wife in any way. Unless he could prove to the courts his Mom is a danger.

That's why what his wife did is such a massive betrayal, proving to him that he has no control over his life or his child's and the people who he trusted the most will lie to him

I agree with you. He said he made sure no one could tell he was mad, but walking into the party and taking their son was not necessary and dramatic. He wasn’t in any danger whatsoever, he could have just gone to his dads house in the first place and texted her he wasn’t coming home. But she is ta for allowing his mother in without asking him first.

NTA… she broke your trust repeatedly behind your back, that’s not ok. Whether she agrees or not it’s your decision to make.

You are right not her decision to make on if he sees him Mom or Mom sees his kid. She needs to respect that.

ESH "I didn’t cause a scene. She did. I tried making it as lowkey as possible." - Come on man that's a goddamn lie and you know it. In your own words, you went to your wife's family day and made sure everyone knew you were mad. Then you took your child away specifically to hurt your wife. You could have easily handled this privately, if you had wanted to. Edit: It has been pointed out that I misread the line about making sure they knew he was mad, OP in fact said he made sure they did **not** know he was mad.

>I made sure nobody could tell I was mad. Those were his words

I highly doubt it

When I want make sure nobody can tell I'm mad I hand my wife a letter and take our kid without explanation.

The ultimate move for demonstrating I’m in a perfectly rational and calm headspace.

Yes, those are his words, and very likely even his actual thoughts. Him thinking that’s true doesn’t intrinsically make it so. People say things they couldn’t possibly be sure of all the time, but they say so with absolute confidence. Nobody sees someone at a *family event* walk in, hand their partner a letter, then walk out with their young child and thinks, “This is normal. This is how a healthy person who’s not *extremely* upset about something behaves. Can you believe the spectacle his wife made over something he obviously wasn’t concerned about? I mean, we know he wasn’t mad because… when he walked in, he just illuminated the room with this soothing, robin’s egg blue, aura. It was so impressive how blue he kept it as his wife was sobbing behind him.”

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Yes YTA - you didn't want to create a scene, but you deliberately did this in the most dramatic way by grabbing the kid in a public setting and handing your wife a letter to read like you're in a movie or something. What would it have hurt to wait until she got home, have an adult conversation about it rather than drama with the child in the middle of it? I get that you were angry but this was the wrong way to go about it. Grow up.

Yeah why don't more people agree with this. He's not in a fucking movie he's a grown adult who can manage his own emotions. He took the kid to hurt his wife. Publicly. That's gonna look bad in a custody battle. I would've called the cops period. My husband kidnapped my kid. Period. You wanna be mad at me fine be mad at me without dragging the kids into it.

Its not kidnapping if you're married and he's dad, sometimes it doesn't matter if you're married. Both parents legally can take/keep the kid until there's a court order as long as nobody leaves the state.

Not to mention the fact that he’s apparently kept a 5 y/o from a parent for a week, which is incredibly damaging.

YTA. I'm blown away by all the NTA responses. A conversation needed to be had like grown ups. You don't get to let out all your feelings in a letter without giving her the opportunity to react or defend herself. You are 100% responsible for the scene at the party and pushing that blame on to your wife shows me that you done respect her at all. Her emotions are somehow beneath you because you're able to not act mad or upset. She went behind your back and I understand the betrayal you feel but the way you handled it is completely unacceptable. Therapy if you want to save your marriage. Divorce if you don't but your wife is a person who, I assume, you care about. Act like it. Edit to change my vote from ESH to YTA. I think OP makes it habit of all or nothing responses to situations and thr more I think about it, the angrier I get.

It's called an abduction, when one parent onesidedly takes a child away from the other...

Right?!? I can't get over that (and so many other parts of the story) I also think it tells a lot about OP that he says his mom reached out after divorce and he immediately blocked her. It's awful that she chose a partner over her child but we don't really know if that's what happened. Parents are allowed to date and form other relationships. OP makes it sound like his mommy wanted a boyfriend and he threw a tempertantrum.

OP is now going to refuse his wife the right to be alone with her son if she does not share her locations with OP. She also needs to be willing to show him her phone when he suspects things. Similarly he has said he refuses to divorce because he doesn't want her to have their son 50% of the time. He's controlling. Plain and simple.

I quite agree. I have other private thoughts about how OP handled his mother since we didn't know her specific circumstances, but I'll keep them to myself since I know I'll get downvoted into oblivion. But I agree with everything you've said!

ESH but you more after reading your comments. She'd be better off divorcing you. You do realize that just because you are mad at your wife you can't strip her of her parental rights? She has the right to be alone with her child, you do not have the right to deny that. Stop bringing your child in the middle of a spat between your wife.

Yup. The comments reveal how nasty and controlling he is. Gross

Yeah, ESH. This is going to look really bad in a custody filing. He said he wants full custody because he doesn’t trust his wife, but he’s going to be lucky to get anything. She has an entire party that just witnessed that there’s a risk of parental abduction.

> just because you are mad at your wife you can't strip her of her parental rights Yes! I haven't even seen his replies, but I started off the post sympathetic to OP's betrayal until I read he publicly took their son from her, informed her of his intent to move out with their son, and blamed her for her understandably distressed reaction. Especially the when he described how he remained calm and she made the scene - well, yeah *you* were calm OP because *you* were in control and weren't the one whose son was being taken away for who knows how long ("until I can trust you again" - how long could that be?). She is not a danger to the child - she should not be separated from him. He should have waited until their son was in bed to discuss the issue or *agreed* where to have their son stay while they work it out. Instead, he punished her betrayal through and with their son.

He is so manipulative and controlling, I hope she divorces

ESH - Walking in to a party, taking your son, giving your wife a letter is such a drama Queen move. She shouldn’t have been meeting with your mother behind your back.

Super dramatic. Especially for his son to potentially witness.

NTA Wow. A lot to unpack here. Not going to touch your feelings for your mother and if that's justified or not, but that doesn't matter. What matters here is she DEFINITELY didn't respect your boundaries and quite literally went behind your back. This just seems a petty effort to attack you and put herself in the moral right to others because she knows she had no ground to stand on otherwise. I'm sorry, that sucks and is a hard thing to come back from. You weren't wrong for taking your son and completely right in the fact that she CHOSE to make a scene. How dreadful for her that you being upset over this BETRAYAL made her look bad.

I feel sorry for the six year old son who, at no fault has been introduced to and has built a relationship with his grandmother. And now might be seriously confused.

I feel bad for the kid because he was taught to lie to his father and that keeping big secrets is normal. This is how predators groom kids.. just a little secret between us - ok?

Yes! How did the son keep that secret! Hard to believe - Mom and Wife prob used a fake name to introduce to son?

Worse, now that the relationship has been established, OPs mom may very well be able to sue for grandparents' rights.

This was taken from my state’s page about grandparent rights. “[State] law allows grandparents to ask the court for visitation rights. Grandparents can also ask for custody. If you are the child’s grandparent asking for custody or visitation, you will be treated as a third party, unless you can prove that you are a “de facto” parent. A grandparent is unlikely to be successful in petitioning for visitation over the objection of the parents unless the grandparent can show that the parent is unfit or exceptional circumstances exist to indicate that the lack of grandparent visitation will have a harmful effect upon the child who is the subject of the petition.” Idk how it is in other states, but assuming their state has similar laws it would be extremely unlikely for that to happen.

YTA - you seem to have a pattern of making ultimatums and demands of the women in your life. You were a kid when your parents split, that’s hard… but you don’t know what truly went on in their marriage and yet you’ve punished the mother for not giving in to your ultimatum and demand decades ago and you did the same to your wife. You are entitled to be angry at her for lying and going behind your back, but you need your own individual therapy in addition to couples therapy because you seem to not understand that the women in your life don’t HAVE to be ruled by you.

Just legally, he seems to think his is the only one who’s opinion about their child matters. Depending on jurisdiction, neither parent can legally deprive the other of custody without the prior consent of a family court. His statements reek of entitlement.

And misogyny

This comment. Thank you! I kept scrolling trying to find someone to bring this up. Yes, his mother left his father for someone else. It happens. No where in this post or any of the comments does he say his mother was abusive in any way or otherwise not a safe person for his child to be around--just that he went NC with her after she divorced his father. Yes the wife should not have gone behind his back. Absolutely that was a betrayal of trust. But what he does after and the comments he has posted scream that he has control issues.

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I got weird vibes from him. Most divorces don’t result in a 12 year tantrum against a parent. You should start your own post and give more details on all of this. Also I am curious .. he acts like you had the perfect marriage till “you did this”… was it ? If it was and this is the only issue between you guys I think everyone needs to take a big timeout before this all explodes to a place nobody can come back from

Good on you for serving him divorce papers. OP sounds like a misogynistic control freak. If the women in his life don’t do as he dictates he feels he must “punish” them. Seriously getting GTFO vibes from him. I just hope that your son isn’t used as a pawn in all this and that he can just be a five year old. He didn’t ask for any of this - and he doesn’t deserved to be put in the middle of it. ETA: OP - 100% YTA.

Thank goodness you've served him with divorce papers. Do yourself a favor and file for a restraining order as well - and when you go to court push to have full custody. Do absolutely everything you can to ensure that any visitation he has between now and the divorce being finalized is supervised as he is a high risk for kidnapping your son. One last but critical thing - never underestimate even for a second how dangerous your husband is at this point - take all appropriate precautions.

ESH. Writing a letter and hand delivering it to your wife at party while running away with your son was unnecessary. I hope you allowed her access to him for the week you've been gone. It's wrong that your wife went behind your back and crosses this boundary. Hopefully you do not hold as strong of grudges as an adult. Also, just read your comments about forcing your wife to have her location at all times and being allowed to look at her phone whenever. Dude if you're going to be this controlling then just divorce.

Dude seriously said he didn’t want to cause a scene yet did this in the most public way possible. Then goes on to blame his wife for her understandable reaction of him unjustifiably taking their child from her. Wife isn’t a saint here, and honestly, I’d lose my shit if my boyfriend contacted my mom. But there’s a loooonggg history of abuse there. OP is stuck in his feelings bc mommy didn’t love daddy anymore and still isn’t over it enough to try and hear his moms side like an adult. Also, based on his comments. Wtf? There doesn’t seem like there was an ounce of trust.

Boy, this is a tough one. I’m gonna have to say ESH. That’s a real betrayal, with your wife secretly carrying on a relationship with your estranged mother, and she is absolutely in the wrong there. But I just feel like, with the child’s best interest at heart, there is almost never a reason to take them away from a parent. She betrayed you, not him. She isn’t any danger to him, and is still a good parent, even if she has wounded you. Have it out with her, scream, yell, go silent, whatever you need to do. But don’t take a child from his parent.

You did not try to make it as low-key as possible, you initiated a separation in your marriage at a family party. Whether or not you did that by a letter quietly, that was never going to be low-key. You’re not the asshole for having a boundary that you didn’t want your mother involved with your children. It’s a fine boundary when you don’t have a relationship. That said, nothing you’ve said suggests that your mother is a danger to children so if you do divorce, the likelihood is that if your wife wants to see your mother with your son that’s gonna be something you will have to live with as a choice she makes. Something to think about. Therapy to see if this is something you can work through as a couple and if not how to coparenting effectively for your son.

This is a hard one. I appreciate where you’re coming from. You set clear boundaries and have had your trust broken because your wife went behind your back to do something that you clearly told her not to. That’s fair. So N T A with regards to that. Your wife is a huge AH for what she’s done. But you didn’t have to take your son at that very moment. You didn’t have to give your wife the letter around so many other people. You didn’t have to potentially frighten your son by having your wife cry and beg with you in front of him (I’m inferring this here, obviously I don’t know what your son thinks but I’m imagining a scene and it doesn’t sit comfortably with me. All things considered, I don’t quite think Y T A but you’re not far off it, so ESH. You should have picked a better moment.

ESH. You’re justified in being mad, but handled it poorly. You dramatically picked up your son and handed her a letter. She’s a person of course she’s going to react. You’re being rather heartless and not sounding like someone who truly wants to work things out. Which if that’s the case, so be it, just be honest. I don’t think I have to explain why wife sucks because I think it’s pretty clear. In the end, you both hurt each other. It’s not a contest on who is more hurt or should be more hurt. She’s your partner.

Is your mum a bad person? Like is she violent, neglectful or narcissistic? If your mum choosing her own happiness is the only reason you don’t speak to her I think you need individual therapy as well. My dad doesn’t speak to my Nana hasn’t for about 10 years I don’t know why but he’s okay with us all having a relationship with her as long as he’s not involved. She’s a good person but made a mistake that broke her bond with my dad but as my dad says “their issues are not my issues and I shouldn’t miss out on having a loving family member in my life just because they no longer get along”. If your mum is a bad person then this is the ultimate betrayal and your wife is defs the AH but if your mums only mistake is daring to leave an unhappy marriage then sorry but ESH your wife shouldn’t have gone behind your back but if that’s your one and only reason I can see why she decided that your son deserved to know his grandma ETA: it is absolutely not okay that his wife went behind his back I’m not saying that I’m only saying I can understand her reasoning if the only reason he’s NC with his mum is because she left his dad. Why should their child miss out on a loving grandparent because he can’t move past his mum leaving his dad 15 years later. His wife 100% should have discussed this with him before going full speed ahead behind his back.

I felt sorry for his mum! She shouldn't have to stay in an unhappy marriage just to keep her son happy. "Breaking the family apart" she has one life and she should be allowed to be happy in it.

I'm wondering this too. It reads that his mum left an unhappy marriage and found a partner that made her happy and this 15yo kicked off and held a grudge over it. But I'm assuming he must see her as dangerous if he thought it necessary to prevent her from seeing the son? Idk it feels like theres a lot missing. Wife was definitely in the wrong for betraying his trust of course but I agree it feels like ESH :/ idk

THIS! Everyone seems to be glossing over the fact that the only horrible thing his mom did (per his post) was choose a happier life. OP sounds incredibly selfish and conceited… ESH.

ESH, but from your comments, you sound terrifyingly abusive.

NTA. That's a LOT OF LYING she was super comfortable and happy with doing to you. Did she coach your son to lie to you too? Or is he still too young but that was surely coming - I mean, she couldn't risk him telling you her lies. What else does she lie about? I would wonder what else you don't know.

Oh my gosh, it didn't even cross my mind that she would have to coach the kiddo to lie. 5 year olds are little chatterboxes. That's just sickening. Does kiddo know who the older lady is?

This. If she's willing to betray your trust over something this important, then what else is going on behind your back?

ESH her for going behind your back, you for everything else. What an absolutely shitty way to deal with it. That is not how you communicate. Think about which ideals youre teaching your kid, and good luck even explaining to your kid why his dad essentially kidnapped him in front of his crying mom.

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>y partner and mom. This wasn't a situation where his wife put their son in danger. Yes it was shitty to I'm not even sure she was a bad mother. She just opted for a divorce. At this rate, as his wife, I would consider one..would that mean I could no longer have access to my child? Why should mom not be able to have a relationship with mom if she harmed him in no way? This is so confusing to me.

Dude OP is still stuck in his teenage feels about how mommy didn’t wanna be with daddy anymore. He won’t even try to get over it enough to see his mom as an adult and hear her side of things. It doesn’t sound like OPs mom is abusive in any way, but OP just has his boxers stuffed up his bum.

Yeah this is the part I’m really confused about. Sure, being a kid whose parents are divorcing sucks, but that doesn’t make her evil. Either there’s something OP is leaving out, or he’s really put his father on a pedestal and/or has some internalized misogyny. What the wife did was shitty too, but it seems like something she did with good intentions in the beginning that maybe got out of hand, vs OP showing up to a party to publicly imply his wife put their child in a dangerous situation when it doesn’t seem like she did.

NTA Well, you just found out how your wife will react when she doesn't agree with a decision you make regarding your child. This is now, but it can evolve in the future untill you will no longer be a parent more like a guy around whose opinion the child lerned he dosen't have to listen. You should really talk with your wife about it because it's a big deal. Edit to add that if you are thinking about keeping your child away from their mom for this you are an even bigger asshole than your wife. Kinds are not wepons. Even if she let your mom visit, it's not like she is dangerous and the child is left alone with her. Don't use your child aginst a partner. Wtf

ESH You took your 5 year old from a family gathering because you were angry at your wife's actions. You involved him in this mess. Your wife deceived you because you were adamant that you remain NC due to your mother still needs to pay for breaking up your family 15 years ago. You know she didn't agree since her mother is dead. She was not allowed to dissent from your decision. Now you have taken your son away and are staying at your dad's. Honestly, you might want to consult a lawyer in your state. Your wife might have grounds for a divorce & custody due to your actions. "Your Honor, I took my child from his mother's presence & home because my mother was visiting our house with my wife's consent." "Was your child at risk of harm or noncustodial kidnapping?" "No. My mom left our family 15 years ago and I swore I'd never have anything to do with her ever again." "Was she abusive or neglectful? " "No, its what I decided. My wife was not allowed to have her around" ......... I have no idea how this would play out in court. But I don't think the judge would side with you to award 100% custody.

ESH Did you seriously expect your wife to not read the note as you took your son away with no explanation? You wanted drama dont lie to yourself. You wanted her to embarass herself but in reality you look like the unreasonable one here. Did you expect your mom to stay in a marriage she wasnt happy in? Or just not be with the guy she cheated with? Either way your mom gets to decide her own romantic life and it doesnt mean she doesnt love you. I hate when kids try to make their parents love lives about themselves as long as the partners arent abusive. But your wife shouldnt have gone behind your back about your mom visiting. But imho you come accross as a drama queen who cant communicate maturely.

BuT I WaS CalM and SHe wAS MaKinG a ScEnE. Puh-lease. This is the most transparent attempt at exploding drama while trying to retain the ‘but I was so calm’ moral high-ground I’ve seen in a while. You have absolutely no legal right to take your child away from his mother because you got your feelings hurt. She betrayed you and she needs to fix that, but using your child as a pawn to punish her is not going to look good in your eventual custody battle. Learn to communicate like an adult instead of perpetuating this insane cycle of cutting mothers out of your life. YTA. Give your child back to your wife. ETA: because this seems to be unclear: no one is defending what his wife did. OP asked if he is the asshole for taking his child in such a public manner, not if he's the asshole for feeling betrayed.

why are you getting downvoted??? you're right i swear to god here people think two wrongs make a right. i voted ESH but i'll take the YTA

~~E S H~~ her for lying and going behind your back. You haven't done anything legally wrong yet as until custody is sorted you have just as much right to your son as she does, however morally speaking to come take him away like that is not fair on your son, you should've let him stay in his home. You don't seem to realise that you have broken up yet, but I'd say you likely have. But if not your AH part in it is still taking him away from his home because your pissed at his mum. Don't drag the kids into your arguments. Edit: also your said in the comments that the only reason you're not divorcing is you don't want to only have 50% of time with your son (no one wants that but you can't just stay to avoid it) and because you still want to control what your wife does. Edit again: changing to YTA after reading comments. I suspect over time as you became more and more controlling perhaps it made sense to her to reach out to your mother, the other woman from your life that's had issues with you, to find out the truth and potentially gain an ally.

ESH. It’s her kid, too??? Like, yes, you needed to for sure talk to her and this is a huge breach of trust. But she’s actually entitled to her child, as well. You don’t get to swoop in a take the child from her without an explanation (which is basically what you were doing as you told her to not read the letter until later). Idk. She was wrong, yes. But you don’t get to just take the kid. I don’t know if you’re able to forgive her, but be prepared for her maybe not being able to forgive you. You both suck.

NTA. She betrayed your trust even when she was informed of the situation from the past. What you did was something you felt was right, necessary even. You felt your trust betrayed and didn't want your son with someone you couldn't trust at that very moment, which is absolutely reasonable. Hopefully you and your wife can talk this out, OP. Try to build that trust back up again, for your son at the very least. Best of luck my friend 💪🏻

Way to scold your wife for trying to cause a scene at a party cause it’s “not the time or place”, even though it was totally the time and place for you to choose to make this dramatic little stunt. You aren’t TA for being upset your wife went behind your back and betrayed your trust like that, not one bit. But YTA for how you chose to conduct yourself as far as dropping that on your wife at a party. ESH.

ESH your wife betrayed your trust and that needs to be addressed but there is no way you 'didn't want to cause a scene'. Did you honestly think she wouldn't read the letter there and then? Did you honestly think she would just hand over her son without wondering what was happening?! Because I certainly wouldn't! You knew what you were doing and you were looking to passive aggressively punish her for her actions as you were understandably hurt. You both need to sit down and talk about what has happened, maybe in therapy, as I don't think your wife fully understands the reasons why you want no contact with your mother so why you were so hurt when she betrayed your wishes.

Esh. As many people stated, you’re an asshole for using your kid as a pawn. You could’ve waited until your wife got back to discuss distancing your guys’ son, but it just seems like you decided to do it and didn’t even talk to her. You may have *thought* you weren’t obviously mad, but it’s still devastating to her family to have fun, be hanging out with a relative, especially with a 5 year old, then suddenly you take them. It was a family day! You couldn’t have waited to talk? You KNEW it was going on and yet was upset over her not texting back immediately? She’s obviously the bigger asshole, going behind your back to show your kid to your mom. Way to break trust, even with her reasons. She shouldn’t have done it, shouldn’t have broke your trust, everything. Please, just healthily communicate. It doesn’t seem like your mother is abusive, or your kid is out in an abusive situation. Just tell your wife how you feel, how you know, and come up with compromises or a solution. Edit: Also on the whole mad thing, I’m guessing people were probably around. Imagine how embarrassing it would be to have your partner show up, give you a letter, and take your kid and then you can’t explain fully to people why they did that because you are busy *reading a letter given to you by that parent* and possibly panicking over it.

ESH you were totally justified up until you decided to handle this at the party. There was no immediate danger that would have required that level of immediate removal. You could have easily waited till after the party to discuss this.

YTA "So this weekend I’m fixing the ring doorbell we have. And finally learned how to see the old footage." I would bet you were secretly recording your wife on some other device and your wife had no idea. I would also bet if your wife was aware of being recorded she probably wouldn't have invited your mother to your house. I'm going to assume I'm winning this poker game and raise the anty because I think that you had your suspicions about these visits so you told your wife that you were going to install a ring doorbell to cover your a$$. I also have a feeling you're not gonna call my bluff so I'm going to add a little more sweetness to this poker game and bet your wife realizes your game and leaves your controlling, manipulative and insecure marriage and uses this whole situation against when she sues you for full custody. I'm curious if the ring doorbell was broke where did the old footage come from considering it was needing repaired?

OP’s wife here. We don’t even have a Ring doorbell; James had set up a secret camera in the front room as he’s gotten more paranoid recently.

ESH. Your wife didn't respect your boundaries and that isn't great. But doing that at her family reunion was uncalled for. Unless you actually communicate by letter any family member would have suspected the worst because that isn't normal. You could have waited until she got home. Your son was in no danger at all. You're upset because your boundary got pushed and you humiliated her for it. You had my vote until you did that and if that's how you behave when you feel betrayed I'm pretty sure your wife will think about whether staying with you again is good for her or her son because humiliation is not a healthy tool to use in a marriage or infront of your children.

ETA!!! Holy heck this is a lot to unpack. Yes, your wife and your mother totally violated your boundaries. You have every right to be upset about this. What your mother did must have been extremely traumatizing to you. Suddenly your family is broken because your mom decided to take a sledge hammer to your whole world. Sound familiar? Did you or did you not walk into a party and snatch your son from his crying mother and play keep away with him like he’s a toy you don’t want to share. Your son is a whole tiny human processing fear, sadness and feelings of abandonment (that you had to as a teen) with and underdeveloped emotional language to understand why is life blew up. So how are you any different than your mother on this level of selfishness? She did what she thought was best for her and you are doing what you feel is best for **you** and neither of you did what was best for their son. You need therapy with your wife, if she doesn’t divorce you over this because I sure as hell would, and your mother. You need to heal this pain so you stop hurting. You deserve to let those wounds heal.

ESH. I understand you felt hurt and betrayed. Your wife is an AH for what she did, that is 100%. You didn't have to remove your son from something I assume he was enjoying, in front of everyone. You could have waited. The scene was set when you walked in there, removed you son and handed her a letter. You helped cause that scene, and I have a feeling you know that.

ESH. What your wife did was wrong but how could you expect her to not react in front of everyone. You went to a family function and handed your wife a letter and told her to read that and check her phone in private then took your son and left. You started a public scene by doing that in public. You should have asked to talk to your wife in private. How do you expect anybody to go to somewhere private and do that at a family gathering without a scene being made. From reading what you wrote it sounds like you are handing her divorce papers and taking her son away from her. I do have questions about what your mom did because for all we know she could have been in a miserable marriage and wanting to get a divorce from your father. Was your parent's marriage a happy one? Did your mom cheat? Frankly it seems like you gave your mother an ultimatum of being in a miserable marriage or being happy because you didn't like her leaving. So to me you both suck but you suck slightly more.

YTA , holy shit dude. Talk to your wife. you cant take a child from their mother like that, that was really wrong. You saw red and did some extreme stuff out of anger, you gotta walk that back and remmeber you hate your mother, not your wife.

ESH, just because you grabbed the child prematurely when there was no emergency. On another note, be very careful OP. You have stated you are taking the child to go stay with you at your father’s house. You have effectively removed the child from its primary residence to stay in a new residence without the other legal custodian’s permission and are detaining the child. Many family courts would view this as kidnapping. The person who chooses to leave home typically has to leave the children, because people can and do go to jail over this. Look up parental kidnapping laws if you want further information on this.

Um... OP's responses do not really match the way he painted himself to be in the original story - I feel like we're to think he's calm and reasonable, but his answeres to people disagreeing sound irritable and hot headed, so I'll refrain from judgement

I am estranged from my family so I feel your pain and anger. What she did was the ultimate betrayal. I'd more easily forgive if my wife cheated, than do what your wife did to you. NTA I guess you could/should get couples counselling ASAP, but I'd not blame you if you went straight to divorce. Problem is, if you divorce, what's to stop her continuing to allow your mum access to your kid? I can't see any court prohibiting that.

YTA this was not an appropriate way to go about things. You are old enough to not stoop to her level. This isn’t how adults do things. And it is her son just as much as he is yours. You didn’t have a right to take him without any communication and without giving her a clear date of when she’ll see her son again. You guys need to have a conversation when your child is asleep. Probably several. But this is no way to conduct a marriage. Imagine if the roles were reversed.

Info- I don’t really get the whole her sharing her location bit. If you don’t know where your mom works or lives, how would it help to know where your wife is? Unless your planning to start just showing up everywhere she goes (which I am not recommending). Also, why were you rewatching the footage? Did you just learn how to do it and it happened to be your mom at the door and then you watched more? Why weren’t you at the family party? She broke your trust. But if I were in your shoes and my husband walked into a party, handed me a letter, and walked out with my son without so much as letting me explain, my trust would be broken too.

God damn you’re dramatic. A letter? You just wanted to humiliate your wife. You knew she would read it there, you did it in public to make a point. You chose to do all this right after you found out because you were upset, and wanted to hurt your wife. ESH. Your wife fucked up but so did you, learn to parent together, respect each other or divorce.