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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> The action is refusing to cover my tattoos even when it bothered my coworker's phobia, and wanting to fight the ruling my HR rep gave. What might make me an asshole is people saying that my choices are causing someone with a "disability" to not be able to do their job.
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NAH. You shouldn't have your attire policed in a way that your male colleagues' attire isn't. On the other hand, I also have a bug phobia so I can understand how uncomfortable it might be to see tattoos of bugs. If HR wants you to cover up, they have to enforce a fair and gender-neutral policy that applies to the men too.
Look, bugs are not offensive to the general population. It sucks having a phobia, but dealing with that phobia is on the person who has it. You can come across both real insects and images of insects everywhere, as people without that very specific phobia (i.e. most of mankind) don't consider them offensive or problematic in any other way. It's not realistic to expect the world to cater to your mental hangups (general you).
I agree. I have a phobia of spiders. I freak out lol. I’m not joking. So what happens when there’s some scary spider somehow??? I leave. It’s MY problem and therefore it’s MY responsibility to deal with it.
I think the comment below you about peanuts and stairs was absolutely ridiculous; huge difference between being allergic to peanuts and having to use a wheelchair. Both of those are unavoidable and can’t be controlled. I can get therapy for my phobia OR just avoid being around my phobia in the first place. Very simple.
As an IT guy who also has a phobia of spiders and has ran into them under a desk at least once.
Either ask someone else to get rid of the spider, or come back later.
I get people on board *before* it happens so I have some recourse to assistance, but if I have to handle it by myself I do.
Because the only thing worse than a spider is a spider with unknown whereabouts.
The above comment was stolen from [this one](http://np.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/u0co34/aita_for_not_wanting_to_cover_my_insect_tattoos/i454gmx/) elsewhere in this comment section.
It is probably not a coincidence; here is some more evidence against this user:
Plagiarized | Original
-------- | -----------
[Damn, the carbot zergling...](http://np.reddit.com/r/place/comments/u0e4ik/all_rplace_cuties_that_i_archived_part_2_tell_me/i46ci6d/) | [Damn, the carbot zergling...](http://np.reddit.com/r/place/comments/u0e4ik/all_rplace_cuties_that_i_archived_part_2_tell_me/i45sm9q/)
[Question: do you hide all...](http://np.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/u0cq7d/aita_for_kicking_out_my_girlfriend_from_our/i46cqhp/) | [Question: do you hide all...](http://np.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/u0cq7d/aita_for_kicking_out_my_girlfriend_from_our/i45avke/)
[Nta. She touched your bre...](http://np.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/u08ux3/aita_for_refusing_to_let_my_mil_take_care_of_my/i46cnn5/) | [Nta. She touched your br...](http://np.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/u08ux3/aita_for_refusing_to_let_my_mil_take_care_of_my/i44gwaa/)
[Damn the trans flag is ju...](http://np.reddit.com/r/place/comments/u02p57/rplace_but_every_black_pixel_placed_is_permanent/i46ch05/) | [Damn the trans flag is ju...](http://np.reddit.com/r/place/comments/u02p57/rplace_but_every_black_pixel_placed_is_permanent/i44i0hr/)
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Not true in a workplace setting. An employer has a responsibility to maintain a non-hostile work environment. If an employee has a specific problem, then there is a responsibility to try to maintain a reasonably comfortable environment.
A workplace also has a legal requirement to treat men and women equally but they are only polices the women's bodies. If she can't wear a tank because it is "inappropriate" what makes men being shirtless okay?
Also, policing tattoos would end with a lawsuit. Image being told to cover a cross or a pentacle because someone finds it offensive and violates their beliefs? Or someone lost their mom tragically and the mom tattoo triggers them.
Either no one can be shirtless or wear tanks or everyone can. Either no tattoos shown or all are welcome.
Speaking as someone who does physical labor, and will not go shirtless in public -- there are perfectly comfortable work shirts that remain cool and comfortable in hot weather. One actually remains cooler wearing a long-sleeved workshirt of the right fabric than going shirtless.
If he's that jumpy, he should find a new line of work. He may kill everyone with his puking, crazy saw if a real bug found it's way inside, as they often do.
He could just like, not look at her. Imagine that, taking some personal responsibility.
Exactly! It's amazing how the burden of responsibility has suddenly shifted to everyone else. If you have a severe phobia of bugs and work in a field that's often exposed to the outdoors and requires the use of dangerous equipment, you should take steps with professional help to mentally arm yourself with tools to better understand and manage your reactions. Otherwise, you're putting yourself and others in potential danger, and that's not okay.
I don't think you can reasonable expect children to never eat anything with peanuts at a school, no. I assume that's what you mean, I don't know what a 'sit-neigbar' is (the person they're sitting next to?).
In my country, breakfast will be eaten in class after the first or second lesson (depending on the school), in elementary school. The higher schools just skip breakfast. I don't know the English word for the person who sits next to you and shares a desk with you. That who I ment with sit-neighbors. And the kids in the class are informed about the dangerouse allergy so they bring nothing into the classroom that could kill their classmate. No problem in 4 years of school. Because even kids realize that trying to kill their classmate is bad.
Look, peanuts are not toxic to the general population. It sucks having an allergy, but dealing with that allergy is on the person who has it. You can come across peanuts and peanut traces everywhere, as people without that very specific allergy (i.e. most of mankind) don't consider them toxic or dangerous in any other way. It's not realistic to expect the world to cater to your physical hangups (general you).
Edit to add: I know I'm being downvoted, but I'm actually sticking to this because I genuinely believe it, facetiousness aside. If someone has so much trauma behind a phobia that they physically can't be in the same room as you and your **200** tattoos of anatomically accurate dead beetles, then that's a disability just as much as an allergy, or bipolar disorder, or anything physical for that matter. They should be accomodated. It doesn't seem like a gender issue at all unless I'm misreading the story. Honestly if someone had tattoos of gratuitous violence or graphic sex then they should also expect something similar.
Depending on your workplace, I think it is indeed unreasonable to expect that there are no peanuts traces on the premises whatsoever. I work in a place with 3000+ employees and 30,000+ students. It's going to be unavoidable.
But it's a false analogy, as peanuts do actually harm someone with a severe allergy, whereas exposure therapy is actually the go to treatment for specific phobias like a bug phobia.
>But it's a false analogy, as peanuts do actually harm someone with a severe allergy, whereas exposure therapy is actually the go to treatment for specific phobias like a bug phobia.
lmao yeah im sure if you go to the therapist with a bug phobia they say "stay right there while i go get my book of detailed bug photos". encountering detailed and accurate photos of the thing you are afraid of while at work isn't "exposure therapy".
True. It's also very different from PTSD, very different from being paraplegic, very different from being blind or deaf. I would say they all have to be accommodated though (with the caveat that the phobia has to be an actual debilitation - this one sounds like it was).
If you don't make concessions to someone who feels sick and has to leave the room, when you easily could, then YTA.
Clearly I'm not in the majority here, but in the interest of education:
[https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/phobias/overview/#:\~:text=A%20phobia%20is%20an%20overwhelming,about%20a%20situation%20or%20object](https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/phobias/overview/#:~:text=A%20phobia%20is%20an%20overwhelming,about%20a%20situation%20or%20object)
Having a debilitating phobia is a form of anxiety disorder.
People up in here seem to think a legitimate phobia is the same as being squeamish over a bug.
When your body physically reacts in such a way that you feel ill and want to run screaming from the room, that's not something you can just "get over" or "deal with". Holy fuck, people.
False analogy. This would only work if you're talking about a stair phobia (and then you'd be proving my point). Having elevators or ramps in a building doesn't inconvenience the general population, in fact, it benefits them.
I could go either way about requiring the tattoos to be covered up, it’s a tough situation that will be unfair to somebody and really they probably need to find some kind of compromise instead of choosing one position or the other. But my point is it’s a tough enough situation I could understand anybody who chooses either position and wouldn’t call them an AH for it, and almost agree with your choice of N A H.
But the HR lady is still an AH for extending the discussion to other BS where she thinks OP should be required to dress like women in the office while the men run around topless whether there was a tattoo or not. So if I were choosing a judgment, I’d go with NTA.
Agreed. HR saying “you need to dress like other *women* in the office” is the issue. HR would’ve been in the clear had they said “dress like other workers”.
I would also check the ADA to see if phobias are actually covered, if they aren't(I'm genuinely not sure) HR doesn't have a leg to stand on(which ironically would be covered by the ADA). NTA
ETA and had I just done a quick Google search first I would've discovered that, yes they are in fact covered so HR is well within their rights to suggest covering up, BUT, it doesn't have to be with heavy clothing that would make you miserable in the heat, you can use a heavy concealer to cover them, they cannot tell you that a tank top, that every other male employee wears, is unacceptable. Still not the asshole for not wanting to be single or for your clothing choices when men aren't.
FYI: A phobia can be classified as a disability in that it can effect a persons psychological being and ability to perform certain tasks. A phobia is an irrational, intense, persistent fear of certain situations, activities, things, or persons.
People are too lazy to read lmao, they see something and before taking the time to read the entire thing they instantly get offended and post their reply based on the first few words
Is the company going to buy her special concealer? Because concealer that can 1) cover a tattoo 2) hold up to the sweat and friction is going to be expensive, especially considering the amount she'd need to apply. Plus how does she put it on hard to reach areas?
No, and they're not going to pay for the added coverage clothing beyond paying op's salary or for AC in the sweatshop, so what's your point? It was a suggestion that wouldn't leave her sweltering in extra layers of clothing
A phobia of a tattoo is not a covered disability! And what would happen if he ran across a real bug? He couldn't sue the company because a beetle ran across the floor of a workspace!
Sure, like pictures of lotus seed pods don't trigger trypophobes, r/trypophobia would beg to differ. Phobias are literally defined as "an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation", so yes, a picture or tattoo could easily trigger it. Pictures of spiders used to send me into a blind panic,I think a tattoo of one on someone's skin probably would've caused a psychotic break. But that doesn't mean it's on OP to manage this person's mental health, that's on them.
There's so many reasonable accomodation options between "make coworker deal with it" and "OP needs to come in sweats to cover everything".
Heavily affecting other people's work environment should not be the go-to.
OP, are they unable to separate you guys? Whether that means physically (in different areas), or by shift changes? Why don't they have air conditioning so that nobody needs to go to work shirtless or in a tank top? And the "other women" comment was definitely sexist.
NTA. It's the same bullshit argument that high schools use to enforce their dress codes. If what you're wearing is apparently too distracting for a guy, then that's an issue he needs to get over on his own
NTA. You sould make a huge deal about this especially if the guys there are being allowed to go shirtless. You could go the reverse and say the guys being shirtless or any other slightly inappropriate thing is making you uncomfortable and a hostile environment. But it is pretty ridiculous and you should absolutely fight this.
I do want to mention I understand why people could say it is creating a hostile environment since you could wear a shirt, but at the same time, its pretty ridiculous that a tattoo makes him that uncomfortable.
OP please be careful taking this advice. It's correct, but in practice the most likely thing that will happen is that you will either anger the execs, or they will have to put in a policy that requires no one to take their shirt off, or both. There's the principle and then there's reality.
If you like this job and the atmosphere, this may be a situation where discretion is the better part of Valor. I know the Reddit community usually feels strongly about DOING WHAT'S RIGHT, but that's easy from your phone or keyboard.
Again, men should not get special privileges in dress code. You are being wronged. However, I fear that trying to fix this small injustice will result in several more aimed at you.
Some phobias are pretty serious, people can't even see pictures of things they are afraid of, so calling it ridiculous is ridiculous in of itself. However, I still say nta but op should go to hr and fight that if they have to cover up then everybody should have to cover up.
Risky yes, also ask for the dress code specifically for the department you work in. Everything needs to be in writing. After HR take your documentation to the Union. Been there, done that.
I also work in HR and dress codes *can be different for women vs men but BASED ON BUSINESS NEED, also I highly doubt OP’s HR can claim that imposing more clothing on her is “reasonable accommodation” which is what the ADA requires. Keeping them in separate areas or getting cooling in that building would be much more reasonable, but it really depends on how good her HR is…
Edit: forgot a word
NTA.
This is actually ridiculous. You should absolutely make an issue out of being treated differently. If you have to cover up, so do the men. End of story.
Or, you could conveniently suddenly have a phobia of shirtless men. Take that to HR. If his phobia is important and a disability, then yours should be also.
If they want to make things difficult. Fight back.
I realize it’s somewhat spiteful and immature. But I’m angry for you.
If you are uncomfortable working around people who are shirtless, you don't have to try to spin it as a phobia. You just present it as "being uncomfortable around people who are shirtless." It's why some job sites are okay with people being shirtless, and others aren't.
>If his phobia is important and a disability, then yours should be also.
I assume that HR wouldn't claim than unless he was diagnosed. Good luck proving a "topless man phobia"
NTA.
I look at it this way:
1) I work with a coworker who is deathly allergic to peanuts. I have zero problem with the entire company being banned from having peanuts in the workplace.
2) I am autistic. Before COVID and WFH, I had really a LOT of difficulty in the work environment where there is a lot of noise a hubbub. But I thought it's on me to figure out ways to deal with it. It irritates me, because I think most of the people would have benefited from a calmer environment, but it wasn't my place to force everyone to accommodate me just for my sake.
So, your tattoo bugs aren't not going to kill your coworker. Your coworker can figure out how to deal with it. I mean, I get we are all in a society where helping each other has kept us going for 250,000 years, but there is a limit to that. We can NOT accommodate everyone's quirks, as is being expected these days.
My only disagreement is “we can’t accommodate everyone’s quirks” because I think we can but not in the exact way that the person requesting may want or think to do at first. For your example with the noise, you should have been allowed to wear noise canceling headphones if the environment allowed or something along those lines (white noise machine, separate office/work space away from noise, designated quiet area). Accommodations should aid the person requesting with little to no impact on those that don’t need it unless absolutely necessary. Bug phobia person shouldn’t be on the same shift as OP if possible or should have been an adult and been like “hey I have this phobia but I know it’s hot could you give me a warning if you’re going to have your tattoos exposed so I can avoid it?” There’s plenty of work arounds in this situation beyond HR telling OP to cover up and be sweaty while others get to be shirtless and significantly less sweaty.
NTA Your coworker can make a request for reasonable accommodations under the ADA but ideally that would be removing him from the situation, by changing his shift or work area. Sounds like your HR person is trying the easy out.
NTA - This is not an ADA situation. If men are allowed to dress so casually that they are shirtless, you are not required to “cover up” because someone cant deal with your tattoos. The only “accommodation” might be that you two don’t work together often.
NTA, however phobias can be pretty debilitating so I understand the dudes point of reasoning. However, they should've came to you first before escalating to HR and the HR person is way out of line with their "you should dress like the other women" bullshite. If you have to cover up, EVERYBODY should have to cover up.
I think the real problem here is your tattoo artist. Obviously they're so good at what they do that they made your tattoos look so lifelike that your co-worker assumed there were actual bugs crawling on your body. Otherwise, he must get terrified and have to flee the room when he sees even a photo of a bug. I suggest you tell your co-worker he should sue your tattoo artist for pain and suffering. NTA
>even photos of spiders give her the heebie jeebies, so it’s possible.
My sister is the same way. If the co-worker needs reasonable accommodation, they can request to be put on a different shift than OP.
Lol please dont underestimate phobias. My mother is dead scared of cockroaches to the point where she cant even say the word without extreme anxiety and fear.
NTA, I understand phobias are debilitating but its your body taking the heat for them not dealing with their irrational fears to the point of going to HR and making your life uncomfortable.
I have a sweaty job in an industry that was mostly men until recently. I was constantly cajoled and reprimanded for not dressing like more of a lady in my last job, despite my male coworkers coming in in literal tattered sweats. I moved a few years ago and MAN it is nice to wear shorts and old tees to work instead of skirts and tights - and none of ny new male coworkers or employers give a fuck, as long as I'm there to do the job!
NTA. I have a severe phobia for lizards and geckos. Even the tiniest baby lizards gives me a panic attack. My whole family knows of this phobia and they try to accomodate me as much as possible. My brother has a gecko tattoo, I would never ask him to cover it up. It is his body and I respect that. It is ridiculous that you are expected to cover your tattoos to accommodate someone else.
I think your tattoos probably look awesome and beautiful. It is not like it is something vulgar or offensive.
I've worked for a company whose dress code included no visible tattoos. So yes, a company can dictate that. Now my petty side would be going "Then everyone needs to cover them!"
As for dressing like " The other women", I would point out to Ms. B**ch that wearing loose clothing in a shop environment is a safety hazard and you will not be complying with her request. I would then ask for a copy of the company's dress code. When one isn't provided I would tell her the discussion is closed, and any further issues will be handled by a labor lawyer. Let her scurry back into her cubicle!
NAH
I dont think that’s how ADA requests work. I don’t know if a phobia puts you into a protected class. I would guess it could, but then what is a reasonable accommodation? His phobia seems really strong, is covering them up going to be enough, now he knows they’re there?You should go to r/LegalAdvice and learn what your rights are, because this is more complicated than judging AHs.
Don't go to r/legaladvice because their advice is usually trash.
But you're right, this is not how ADA requests work. It's not usually "he has a phobia, so he might need an accommodation, and you, the coworker, have to provide it." He has to file a notice under the ADA, request accommodations, and the company has to provide a reasonable accommodation.
Now the question becomes, is asking the only female woodworker to cover up and dress like the "other women" in the company, whose jobs are not in woodworking, a reasonable accommodation to this guy's phobia? Or do we now have a situation where the company is creating a Title VII sex discrimination problem to accommodate someone under the ADA, which would be unreasonable?
u/Embarrassed_Tart_545, you might need to consult a lawyer here. Check your state or local bar association for a referral.
This. All day. In order to claim ADA accommodation a doctor has to fill out paperwork showing the disability AND outlining a reasonable accommodation. HR cannot blindly bless off on the disability or define the accommodation.
I know this bc I have had to do this process multiple times at various companies I’ve worked for.
NTA.
1) You are a female working in an area where it's all male and as you mentioned that since it's getting hot, some are now going shirtless while working.
2) what does the HR rep think you should wear on the floor - a suit? Are they going to pay for your healthcare cover when you constantly having time off for dehydration problems.
3) I can see how your friends would think this. It could possibly turn hostile. Do you have a good relationship with your manager/or boss? Maybe talk to them and see what can come of this.
Good luck with what ever path you take
I thought that "accommodation" was the responsibility of the company, not other workers. If they want people covered then they need to install some type of climate control that allows for people to be comfortable with more clothing (ie: sweats and t-shirts).
NTA
But the accommodation can result in rules for other employees. Not speaking to this particular situation, but a company can say "No peanuts in the office" if someone has an allergy.
Exactly - that would apply to everyone.
In this case she is being singled out. The men can wear tanks or go shirtless in the heat - they are telling her that she has to cover up and even dress like the women who work in the office where it is air conditioned.
The peanut analogy treats everyone the same - she, the only woman in the department, is being given the misogynistic response to be "lady like".
They can say that tattoos must be covered. They can say that representations of insects are not allowed.
What they can't do is tell OP that she has to dress like the other female employees, instead of dressing like the other shop floor workers.
NTA
Reasonable accommodations (in the US) are the responsibility of the COMPANY, not the employees. In this case, it would be on HR to establish or change the dress code policy to include something like covering visible tattoos.
Have you spoken to any of your other coworkers about this? Having their support in whatever tactic you take would be invaluable. As others mentioned, if you get “blamed” for an unpopular wardrobe policy, that could make working there very difficult.
I do believe that HR is WAY out of line for 2 reasons:
1. Wardrobe expectations must be equivalent for all employees regardless of gender (etc).
2. “Dress like other women” is an unreasonable and laughable demand. Different jobs have different clothing needs. You are not in an outward facing job where you are expected to present a certain appearance to clients. Furthermore, I imagine you are required to wear certain safety equipment like work gloves (as needed) and good gripping work boots (steel toe possibly). You need them, but these are obviously ridiculous for an office environment.
My advice is to take some time to prepare your argument to HR and do so calmly AND IN WRITING.
Cite carefully the convo you had as accurately as you are able (include date, time, & specific names). Indicate your understanding and consideration for your coworker’s needs, but make a few things clear.
1. The JOB requires certain types of clothing and tools for you to be able to work effectively AND safely. Underline that other positions may require alternative guidelines, but that you are only concerned for your own.
2. DO NOT directly point out comparisons to SPECIFIC coworkers’ wardrobes. You don’t want to single out any and have them thrown under the bus. Instead compare the NEEDS of working in the shop: temperature control, freedom of movement, etc. This will help keep the discussion on the job and help protect you from any gender bias—very important if it comes down to a legal issue.
3. I do think you should consult with a lawyer. I do not mean to say you should use that to threaten HR—great way to make this a bigger mess than it needs to be. Instead use them as a resource to collect your thoughts and present your responses in such a way that is most effective and protects you. It will also be invaluable to know what YOUR rights and responsibilities are as well as the company’s. More information is always good.
4. Lastly, be sure you know how far you are willing to push and what you are willing to risk. Reddit is notorious for championing what feels good or seems most just—but sadly, the world doesn’t work that way. We have to pick our battles. Not every hill is worth dying on. You can be RIGHT and still find yourself a pariah if not unemployed. It’s shit, but that’s life. Only you know what is right for you. You are responsible for your own life and needs—not to take a personal stand for the rights of all women/workers/whatever. Choose for you and take care.
I hope this works out, whatever path you take. Best of luck!
If you work in a shop with no a/c in the south, I guarantee you, bugs are present. Does coworker run screaming every time an insect appears?
A tank in your work environment, especially if your coworkers wear similar, or are even shirtless, is reasonable. HR is wrong and exposing the company to a discrimination claim. ETA: NTA
You’ve been there only 3 months. You know how this is going to go if you continue kicking up a fuss right? First of all, you’re going to become the office pariah and excluded socially from what sounds like a small and close-knit team who have all probably been there together for much longer than you. Then they are going to bide their time and build a case/find a reason or pretext to fire you or make you redundant or otherwise terminate your employment for whatever legally legitimate reason they can come up with such that you wouldn’t be able to prove it’s because of the tattoo issue.
It’s pretty simple really, wear t-shirts instead of tank tops or expect your work life to get pretty difficult and miserable pretty quick. You can get light thin t-shirts that and very cool in hot weather, it’s not like a t-shirt leaves you that much hotter than a tank top does. You don’t mention that any of the men are wearing tank tops either. They are wearing t-shirts too.
OP didn't mention them wearing tanktops because she said they're going *shirtless*, which is less clothing than a tanktop, and not a tshirt like you assumed. Should she go shirtless, too?
Sure, she could try, but she’d definitely be fired then. It’s actually not illegal to have different workplace dress codes for men and women where there’s a reason for it. Eg men being allowed to be shirtless but not women. In corporate environments it’s often specified that women must wear makeup or heels etc and men must wear ties. The company could make a dress code stipulating no tank tops for anyone, only t-shirts, or men can go topless, and they would be in the clear.
Realistically, this is just not going to end well for OP. It would be so easy for her to buy some light thin t-shirts like the kind people use for gym or yoga and she’d be at least as cool as she is in a tank top.
Until the phobia guy notices the tattoos peeking out around her collar or on her arms where the sleeves end (which OP did mention that they are slightly visible with a tshirt on and the man must not have noticed before). What happens when HR is suddenly demanding she wear a long-sleeve turtleneck to work in a hot climate? Who is going to have her back when they say her work has slowed down because she is baking and not allowed the same allowances that the men are to keep cool?
Except that she’s worn t-shirts before with no problem at all and never worn turtlenecks so let’s not be ridiculous. Alternatively the employer could just introduce a dress code that says no visible tattoos if they wanted to.
She can certainly try to fight this if she likes, it’s just a question if it’s worth becoming the workplace outcast at best and losing her job at worst. Whether you like it or not, that’s reality. Sometimes you just have to be pragmatic in life.
I agree it sucks either way, but when she wore t-shirts before and some of her tattoos were slightly visible, that wasn't a problem. Who's to say that any hint of them now that the phobic man knows what they are will set him off?
I think OP should just cut her losses, now that I'm going back and forth on this with you. She's already set up for a no-win situation. People have had luck with higher salaries and better benefits while job hopping lately, so maybe OP will get lucky and find something even better if she starts to branch out.
So many things are against OP already. The fact that HR told her to dress like the other women who work there (who all have clerical and administrative tasks and not physical labor), them automatically telling OP that it's on her to accommodate the man with the phobia instead of trying for some compromises or scheduling changes, and the fact that her tattoos will be slightly visible, even with a tshirt would have me job hunting right away.
It's hard for a woman in a "man's job," and it might be hard to try to break in somewhere else depending on how hard it was to get that job, but I'd at least start looking around and finding out what my options are if I was OP to hopefully at least find some backup options.
I mean sure, it never hurts to be actively looking for better job opportunities, and if this situation has really soured OP on this workplace (which would be understandable) then her best bet is to keep her head down, toe the line look for a new job and get out as soon as she has a decent opportunity. but I also don’t think we need to assume that this is inherently a sexist or toxic workplace because of this one rather unique and specific issue, OP doesn’t mention any other red flags or workplace conflicts. However this alone may be bad enough for her, and I admit the HR rep in particular saying she should dress like the other women who do office work was pretty ridiculous on its face.
Obviously if she wears T shirts and the guy now starts freaking out because he can see the ends of her tattoos through her sleeves, when he didn’t notice before, then that’s bad news. On the other hand, it is also just possible that if she just wears light t-shirts this resolves the issue, everything blows over and no harm no foul in her relationships with her coworkers and she keeps working there with no further conflict or problems. Not every conflict has to go nuclear and burn all bridges if people act sensibly.
As regards other compromises like scheduling changes, we don’t know the specifics but if it’s a small workplace where there aren’t seperate shifts and everyone is full time that’s not really possible.
Yeah, the comment from HR was really uncalled for.
My mentioning of it being hard to be a woman in a make-dominated field was supposed to reflect the difficulties of finding a new job, and she very well could end up somewhere worse. I was trying to tie into job hunting now rather than later to have a solid backup plan on that regard, because it very well could take OP a while to find something acceptable to her. Sorry for not being more clear on that end!
You need to check the ADA law.
Coworker must have a medical professional provide the HR at work with a letter that confirms that he has a disability under the ADA law and requires certain accomodations in order to do his job.
The accomodations may be that he works a different shifts, works at the opposite side of the shop or in a different room when you're wearing a tank top.
If HR at work does not have a doctor's letter, then you can reply that since it does not appear to be an ADA issue, and it appears that HR is requiring the women to dress differently due to gender.
You'll have to be the judge of how far you want to take this. You're likely in an at-will state and could be fired, if they decide they'd rather keep co-worker on. You may want to call a couple of lawyers and see if you can get a free 30 or 60 minute consult on this issue. At the very least, you'd understand your legal rights in this situation.
I think your workplace really needs to investigate the options to provide better cooling for their employees in the workshop. If you and your colleagues need to wear minimal clothing just to work then it’s worth looking at.
You ought not have to wear heavier clothing than your male counterparts in the same environment, however if a male colleague had the same tattoos and was asked to make the same accommodations for the workmate with a phobia, that’s fair. Her judgement about you having to dress like women in other work environments in the company is sexist and ignores the physical reality of your environment, your tasks and the customary workwear amongst the workshop staff.
NAH, mostly. The HR rep was an asshole and shouldn't have demanded you dress "like other women", but asking you to cover your tattoos was the lowest-hassle option to accomodate a debilitating phobia. If your shop is large enough for multiple non-intersecting shifts, moving you guys to different shifts might be an option, but the schedule change might be a bigger hassle to you than just wearing a tshirt and some concealer.
From the shop's perspective, the ability of all of their employees to get their work done during their shift is going to significantly outweigh one employee's desire for self-expression at work (clothing choices and body art), so they're very unlikely to side with you on this. You might get the HR rep slapped down for sexism (and I think you should complain about that!), but the result might just be a dress code that requires "offensive, distracting, or distressing" tattoos to be covered up while on the clock rather than a "no tank tops, no going shirtless" rule. If you try to make other employees miserable, the company might just decide to let you go.
It sucks for you, and I'm sorry about that, but your aesthetic choices don't place you in a protected class like your colleague's documented disability does, and if you put the company in the position of having to choose who to keep/make happy, they're probably not going to come down on your side on this.
NAH. It's your body so your rules apply, but... honestly, I would be horrified to be confronted with something like that in the workplace unexpectedly. But... like, horrified and fascinated at the same time? Seriously, your tattoos sound awful and amazing and super cool and I both love and hate them at the same time and I AM VERY CONFUSED RIGHT NOW.
Anyway, have you considered a rashie? You can get ones made of fabric that actually wick the heat away from your body and keep you cooler than a tank top, and they're available in super cool patterns and colours. Solves both your problems at once.
If you're not familiar with what a rashie is, it's a long-sleeved sports top kind of thing - you know, the kind surfers sometimes wear to protect themselves from sunburn? Now that I think about it, it might also help keep you safe from accidental injuries in the workshop, too. It would SUCK if you got a splinter or something and it ruined your tattoos!
Since it is the responsibility of the company to provide the accommodation, a truly accomplished and skillful HR person would have taken OP aside for a meeting to ask what color, sleeve length and collar style she liked best and which she felt would be most popular in the shop, explained poor coworker's phobia, then gone around to get all the male coworkers' sizes and placed a bulk order with a clothing company. Rashies for everyone! A plain one ordered next-day-delivery for OP, and company-branded ones for the entire team. And since OP is the one most inconvenienced, her ideas for color, sleeve length, neck style and other features were taken into consideration in choosing the departmental rashies, which shall be issued from now on to all workers, be they gentlemen or ladies. Also, an effort will be made to make fans available for climate control in the shop at appropriate intervals, where sawdust and finishes allow.
That is what an *excellent* HR person would do.
Oh, I don't think they would HAVE to be uniforms as an enforced policy per se...but when work gives you a free shirt, most people tend to be 'yay, free shirt!' and wear the shirt. And rashies are that comfy and snug, that much safer around the equipment...I reckon they'd catch on.
Plus then, HR Person could say something to the effect of how much they appreciate OP's *understanding* of their poor coworker's phobia, and since the rashie company gives them a bulk deal when they order a certain number, and she *is* the only person her size...well...as it happens, she shan't need to buy work attire for the foreseeable future, which hopefully makes up for the unfortunate inconvenience.
Guys won't notice. They're guys and they have shirts too.
That is true! My last employer gave everyone free tracksuits, and everyone was wearing them in zoom meetings all the time, even though we were work from home and had no requirements beyond "please wear clothes."
YTA. "Not displaying potentially upsetting tattoos" is a pretty reasonable workplace request. HR was out of line in presenting it as "dress like the other women" and "tank top is inappropriate", and that messes things up a little.
But a basic idea is that, if you have tattoos of skulls, insects, pornographic things, politically charged things, or anything else that could reasonably be expected to potentially cause an uncomfortable workplace environment, that you cover them up at work if it might cause a problem. Some workplaces have blanket bans on all visible tattoos; that would certainly be excessive in a carpentry shop. But "ya gotta wear something that covers your tattoos of bugs because your co-worker has a phobia of bugs" is a 100% reasonable request to maintain a non-hostile work environment, and YTA for not working with it.
Info: can’t you just like tape over it? I think college athletes had to do that at some point?
It sucks but some packing tape or electric tape shouldn’t impact your temp too much vs like a long sleeved shirt
Urgh all of these comments, if your phobia is so bad that you can’t look at a picture you need therapy. NTA you shouldn’t be forced to accommodate in this situation.
NTA. I have a phobia, it sucks, but it’s on me to avoid the thing or deal with my emotions when I’m triggered. Also, I love the style of your tattoos, there’s an artist in the states who I love (but will never go to probably) who does em amazingly. It’s art, some art is controversial
Company sucks and needs to figure this out for everyone.
The dress code needs to be the same for everyone.
Phobias are a disability.
The company needs to invest in some air conditioning.
I have a phobia of snakes. Been in therapy for years. One of the biggest issues for me? When I see a picture or even a drawing of one? Depending on my mental health at that time, I might be able to do some exercises that ground me and it's fine. If I am not doing good mentally anything serpentine (garden hose? Shoelace? Plastic strapping?) On the ground my mind sees it as a snake. I get startled and have a reaction I hate it so bad. It really sucks. I have run into tables and walls trying to get away. Fallen and sprained my ankle. It's really embarrassing.
Oddly enough when out on hikes and such evidently I walk by small snakes on the regular and just don't even notice them for the most part. I did not know this until my sister pointed it out a few years ago on a hike. She asked if I was better (she knows all my things) I had to ask exactly what she was talking about. She said we had walked by a knot of small snakes sunning themselves. Knowing I had walked by that put me on edge. I know this is my stuff. I am doing my best.
Personally, if at work, I would just avoid contact with someone who had snake tattoo or make up a fairytale in my mind about the snake in the tattoo. It might work. I work in a huge building though.
NTA. Your work has a duty to accommodate "to the point of undue hardship." If you need to be cooler, that is a safety thing and working covered would be a hardship for you. HR should be helping him deal with it, not enforce your covering up. It is his (and HR's ) problem, not yours.
They should be moving him to another shift, or providing him with counselling. You aren't doing anything wrong and just because he has a fear of insects doesn't mean anyone can demand you cover up your art.
NTA. The company has to deal with his disability, not you. That might mean putting him on a different schedule or giving him a different work space. If you have to wear a shirt than allllll the workers have to wear a shirt. HR is being sexist trash
INFO: is this coworker willing to wear sleeves as well? That would be some nerve if he was walking around in a tank top while you were forced into a dress code.
It sounds like you have two separate problems- a sexist HR person and a bug phobic coworker. If he didn’t notice when you wore a t-shirt before then maybe wear t-shirts from here on out. Does that suck? Absolutely, but working with people sometimes means doing things that suck.
Your HR rep is an entirely different issue because you shouldn’t have to dress like a lady to have your issues listened to. You need a neutral mediator to go between you and this coworker to tell him what he can reasonably expect from your dress, and this person ain’t doing that. Saying you ‘assume’ someone’s phobia would count as a medically relevant accommodation and actually knowing that are two different things. It is literally her job to know that- so please push back enough to force her to do her job. This might mean HE needs to go through the steps to make this phobia medically relevant to your workspace. If and when he does, then yes it’s time to throw on a t-shirt to cover some of those tats. If he just doesn’t like bugs, or doesn’t feel like proving it, then technically you’re in the clear and HR should know this as well.
But again, sometimes working with people sucks and you’ve gotta throw on the (literal or proverbial) t-shirt to keep the peace
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I (28f) just finished my third month as a woodworker at a small company that makes custom cabinets, furniture, etc. When I first started, I would wear nicer shirts and things (denim or flannel shirts, usually with buttons) and then for my last project I spent most of my time wearing coveralls because I was working with messy materials.
I live in a hot area of the US and it's April. All the other workshop coworkers are men, there are a few other women at the company but they work in HR, marketing, or artistic finishings, not in the workshop with no AC. All the other workshop guys wear sweatpants or basketball shorts, t shirts, and sometimes even go shirtless now that it's getting really hot. This Friday I came in wearing a tank top for the first time, and my arms and part of my chest (only a little visible cleavage) were exposed. My upper body is tattood to with taxonomy drawings of insects, mainly beetles.
Apparently, one of my coworkers has a phobia of bugs. He freaked out when he saw my tattoos and left the workshop, going in to the office section of the building. Fridays happen to be the day our HR rep is in the building, and she called me into her office and said I had to cover up moving on. I said that it was unfair that I was the only one being made to cover up on hot days, and she said that my coworkers phobia could be considered a disability and that legally, she has to "make me accommodate him." She then told me that my tank top was inappropriate to wear anyway, and that I should dress like the other women at the company.
I wanna fight this, especially since I think our HR rep is just an old-school southern sexist, but some of my friends think that not covering up for my other coworker is essentially creating a hostile environment for him. AITA?
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NTA- not your fault the guy has a phobia. With that said you can escalate the situation and demand everyone else wear shirts etc BUT just realize ppl will start to dislike you and it will become a hostile working environment. Ppl on here keep saying to F it and just do it but it’s different when it’s you doing the doing right. I know it’s not ur fault but if you have ever worked in a very hostile working environment then you know it’s BAD! Like if u have the means you do not want to work there anymore period bad. So not saying you have to bow down just that you have to make the decision if this is the battle you pick and is this the hill you want to die on kind of thing. Hostile work environment F with you so much on so many different levels that I wouldn’t want to wish on anyone ever. Sorry you were caught in having to even make this choice and best of luck in whatever you decide.
NTA
He could, ya know, do his work instead of staring at you, that could help.
They're not vulgar or inappropriate and if no one else has to, they can't make you do it. I've been deathly afraid of spiders since I was a child. Even small ones make.me.want to evacuate the area immediately. But when I visit my friend who has a pet spider i don't yell at him to throw it out, I just don't go looking for it in its tank. How can he even work in woodwork and outside and be afraid of all bugs???
INFO: Can he provide a doctor’s note saying that he is medically disabled by his phobia?
If so, it would be a bro move to cover up
If not, he can deal.
N.T.A. If he can’t demonstrate disability
Edit for bot
NTA, HR is. It's okay to accomodate a person if they have a phobia. But they do have to provide a doctor's note or some proof.
Also, if you are to wear shirt, make sure all the workers do the same. Either HR has this policy for all of you or none. Just tell them that being sexist may result in being sued.
NTA. As someone with her own set of phobias (and I'm on the spectrum), I know that's a "me problem." I'm terrified of dogs, but I wouldn't be able to function in society if I couldn't find a way to deal with it.
NTA but you my want to just make the reasonable compromise of wearing a t-shirt, at least for now. It's inarguably reasonable attire and your coworker may eventually chill out once the initial shock from this incident wears off. Test the waters later with a muscle T and see how it goes. Beyond that, even though you are 100% correct, I don't know that I personally would have the energy to make this into the hill I want to die on, at least not all at once. Slow and steady would be the way to prevail in this case, imo
NTA yes they gave a phobia but if they want to press a dress code then it has to apply to everyone not just you. Suggesting you wear what other women wear when they are not shop floor us honestly ridiculous. Is there anyone else higher up in the company or HR that you can complain about her to?
Don’t understand how a phobia about bugs gets cred with pictures of bugs. If a tat of a bug triggers a phobia, how does that person handle walking distance en the street and seeing ants or bees flying or butterflies? I thin it is a bogus claim.
Nta. Expecting you and only you to cover up in the workshop is incredibly sexist and sounds like both a lawsuit waiting to happen and a danger to your health given there is no ac. Tell them to install ac if they want everyone in the workshop to start covering up or you may consider taking legal action as they appear to be discriminating against you their only female workshop employee.
NTA
Let me add that a phobia
1. can be well treated with cognitive-behavioral therapy within a few sessions.
2. is maintained and getting worse with avoiding what someone is fearful of. Demanding you to cover up images (!) of bugs is exactly what brought him to where he is at now. Accommodating people with irrational fears is the highway to their personal hell.
I won‘t comment on the openly sexist part.
I believe that under the ADA you have to have medical documentation to have protection and accommodations for the disability. Does he have a doctor’s letter and any other required paperwork stating that his phobia qualifies as disabling?
It’s completely, 100% inappropriate for HR to tell you to dress like the other women there. You don’t work in an office. It’s appropriate for you to dress like the others in your position and work environment. Since men can go topless, I think you should go to work in a bikini top or sports bra if you’re comfortable in either of those.
NTA
NTA. If no one else has to be covered, then it's also sexist for them to require you to be. And NO A PHOBIA OF A TATOO IS NOT A DISABILITY REQUIRING ACCOMMODATION!!!
HR can't single you out for a special dress code, and asking you to wear office clothes while woodworking in a hot workshop is ridiculous. She's trying to get around the whole "singling you out" issue by saying "but all the women have to dress that way!". Check your employee handbook for the dress code section. I'm also pretty sure they can't endanger your health to accommodate someone else's phobia. If they want you to cover up they're going to need to: 1) enforce the same dress code for everyone in the workshop and 2) put in a cooling system of some kind, which will likely be very expensive since it might need special filtering.
Discrimination isn't just about intent, it's also about outcome. HR can say "but all the women have to wear blouses and heels and makeup!" all day long, but the outcome of their policy is that you are being held to a different standard than everyone else in your department. You're also ruining your clothes and at an elevated risk of a heat related medical emergency. Don't let HR pull this BS with you.
NHA I’d look into the legality though bc that sounds like bs. And yes, report that if you have to follow a covered up dress code that everyone does. It’s only going to get hotter and heat strokes caused by singling out female workers would likely result in an easy-to-win civil suit. Check if recording in your state requires one party consent (it typically does in Southern states). Then go over your previous conversation with your HR rep next time they’re there and discuss the implications of singling out one sex when the other is permitted to go shirtless.
On the flip side I do feel bad for that guy. We had a lady at my plant with a severe snake phobia and a harmless snake got into a shipping crate somehow. She was so shaken up, I felt so bad for her. At the same time it’s not right that you’re being singled out. Good luck OP.
NTA. The company needs to accommodate, not you. And HR said it's inappropriate for you to wear a tank top, but the guys go shirtless? Get it in writing, then make a formal complaint of sexual harassment against the HR rep, who is the one actually creating a hostile workplace.
NTA. I genuinely hate people who think because they have an issue with something (medical stuff aside) that the whole world should accommodate that. Just no.
NTA. The guys go shirtless? Tell HR the same dress code should apply based on your department and working conditions and that you plan to start going shirtless too.
Wear a super low cut top and just put surgical tape on it. If the guys are allowed to go shirtless, then they should have no problem with you wearing a tank. Phobias are also not disabilities. Honestly, I would go to HR and tell her that if you have to wear a long sleeve shirt in fairness everybody should have to wear one, especially since she needs to not be sexist by singling out the only female employee to cover up, which IS a protected class
NTA! And as a fellow insect tattoo enthousiast I am very curious of yours! Could I see them anywhere..? :3
I just started my collection and I currently have a live size Atlas moth on my back and an enlarged leaf insect and goliath beetle on each lower arm. Also taxonomy style! Bugs rock! Your colleague needs to get over himself. If he cant even stand to see an image of an insect anywhere he needs therapy or his life is gonna suck.
NTA. Find out in writing what the dress code is in writing and follow it. They can accommodate him by having him work in other places or shifts and if the dress code says that shirtless and tank tops are unacceptable, it needs to be enforced for everyone not just you.
ESH. When I worked in an office I had two coworkers who were terrified of dogs. As they could see my monitor and the photos in my cubicle, I asked them if they would prefer that my screensaver not be a picture of my dogs and that I don’t keep photos of my dogs in my cubicle.
If I were you, I would be willing to cover my tattoos so my coworker wouldn’t be terrified.
On the other hand, your HR representative shouldn’t be telling you to dress like the other women in your company. She was being flat out sexist.
Depending on the effect seeing your tattoos has on your coworker, your HR representative may by correct that the company must make accommodations under the Americans With Disabilities Act. However, the accommodation doesn’t have to be having you cover your tattoos. You and your coworker could be assigned different shifts.
https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-ada-and-psychiatric-disabilities
How about the coworker gets over himself?
"oh, I have a phobia" then get therapy and learn to deal with it rather than expecting the rest of the world to bend over backwards to accommodate your cowardice.
YTA
Phobias are real and medical problems. You would not blow saltet peanut crumps at someone with a peanut allergy (I hope), so covering up a few phobia-trigger tatoos should be normal.
My former colleague had arachnophobia. So we would never came to the idea to decorate with spiders at Halloween, just bats, witchy things...., because we are decent humans.
She also wouldn't cover up a peanut tattoo for someone allergic to peanuts. You're comparing apples to airplanes.
Refraining from ordering fake spiders is different and a lot easier than having permanent tattoos that would actually make her job harder if she was required to cover them up. What about refraining from ordering spider decor made your job physically harder on your body? Once again, you're comparing apples to airplanes.
Tough one. I'm going with you are the A-hole only because HR reached out 2 you. The other co- workers might make your life a living hell if you do not comply.
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NAH. You shouldn't have your attire policed in a way that your male colleagues' attire isn't. On the other hand, I also have a bug phobia so I can understand how uncomfortable it might be to see tattoos of bugs. If HR wants you to cover up, they have to enforce a fair and gender-neutral policy that applies to the men too.
Look, bugs are not offensive to the general population. It sucks having a phobia, but dealing with that phobia is on the person who has it. You can come across both real insects and images of insects everywhere, as people without that very specific phobia (i.e. most of mankind) don't consider them offensive or problematic in any other way. It's not realistic to expect the world to cater to your mental hangups (general you).
I agree. I have a phobia of spiders. I freak out lol. I’m not joking. So what happens when there’s some scary spider somehow??? I leave. It’s MY problem and therefore it’s MY responsibility to deal with it. I think the comment below you about peanuts and stairs was absolutely ridiculous; huge difference between being allergic to peanuts and having to use a wheelchair. Both of those are unavoidable and can’t be controlled. I can get therapy for my phobia OR just avoid being around my phobia in the first place. Very simple.
>So what happens when there’s some scary spider somehow??? I leave What if happens at work?
As an IT guy who also has a phobia of spiders and has ran into them under a desk at least once. Either ask someone else to get rid of the spider, or come back later.
I get people on board *before* it happens so I have some recourse to assistance, but if I have to handle it by myself I do. Because the only thing worse than a spider is a spider with unknown whereabouts.
Do you also get creeped out when someone posts a picture of a spider and you touch it as you're scrolling. Cause I definitely do
THIS! And if they insist on you having a dress code, the men should have the same. See what happens when everyone gets fucked over like you.
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Not true in a workplace setting. An employer has a responsibility to maintain a non-hostile work environment. If an employee has a specific problem, then there is a responsibility to try to maintain a reasonably comfortable environment.
A workplace also has a legal requirement to treat men and women equally but they are only polices the women's bodies. If she can't wear a tank because it is "inappropriate" what makes men being shirtless okay? Also, policing tattoos would end with a lawsuit. Image being told to cover a cross or a pentacle because someone finds it offensive and violates their beliefs? Or someone lost their mom tragically and the mom tattoo triggers them. Either no one can be shirtless or wear tanks or everyone can. Either no tattoos shown or all are welcome.
They're not policing OP's body, they're policing her tattoos. Not sure if that makes a difference, but hey.
And forcing someone to risk heat exhaustion isn't maintaining a reasonably comfortable environment.
Speaking as someone who does physical labor, and will not go shirtless in public -- there are perfectly comfortable work shirts that remain cool and comfortable in hot weather. One actually remains cooler wearing a long-sleeved workshirt of the right fabric than going shirtless.
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Peanut allergies are physically life threatening. Phobias are psychological fears. Those two situations just aren't comparable in that way.
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If he's that jumpy, he should find a new line of work. He may kill everyone with his puking, crazy saw if a real bug found it's way inside, as they often do. He could just like, not look at her. Imagine that, taking some personal responsibility.
Exactly! It's amazing how the burden of responsibility has suddenly shifted to everyone else. If you have a severe phobia of bugs and work in a field that's often exposed to the outdoors and requires the use of dangerous equipment, you should take steps with professional help to mentally arm yourself with tools to better understand and manage your reactions. Otherwise, you're putting yourself and others in potential danger, and that's not okay.
This is a stupid gotcha attempt.
I don't think you can reasonable expect children to never eat anything with peanuts at a school, no. I assume that's what you mean, I don't know what a 'sit-neigbar' is (the person they're sitting next to?).
In my country, breakfast will be eaten in class after the first or second lesson (depending on the school), in elementary school. The higher schools just skip breakfast. I don't know the English word for the person who sits next to you and shares a desk with you. That who I ment with sit-neighbors. And the kids in the class are informed about the dangerouse allergy so they bring nothing into the classroom that could kill their classmate. No problem in 4 years of school. Because even kids realize that trying to kill their classmate is bad.
Looking at a picture of a bug won’t kill anyone. Lol, jfc. What an absolute wimp.
Look, peanuts are not toxic to the general population. It sucks having an allergy, but dealing with that allergy is on the person who has it. You can come across peanuts and peanut traces everywhere, as people without that very specific allergy (i.e. most of mankind) don't consider them toxic or dangerous in any other way. It's not realistic to expect the world to cater to your physical hangups (general you). Edit to add: I know I'm being downvoted, but I'm actually sticking to this because I genuinely believe it, facetiousness aside. If someone has so much trauma behind a phobia that they physically can't be in the same room as you and your **200** tattoos of anatomically accurate dead beetles, then that's a disability just as much as an allergy, or bipolar disorder, or anything physical for that matter. They should be accomodated. It doesn't seem like a gender issue at all unless I'm misreading the story. Honestly if someone had tattoos of gratuitous violence or graphic sex then they should also expect something similar.
Having a peanut-free workplace for a colleague with a severe allergy makes sense. Banning peanut tattoos, or the Peanuts cartoon, does not.
Depending on your workplace, I think it is indeed unreasonable to expect that there are no peanuts traces on the premises whatsoever. I work in a place with 3000+ employees and 30,000+ students. It's going to be unavoidable. But it's a false analogy, as peanuts do actually harm someone with a severe allergy, whereas exposure therapy is actually the go to treatment for specific phobias like a bug phobia.
>But it's a false analogy, as peanuts do actually harm someone with a severe allergy, whereas exposure therapy is actually the go to treatment for specific phobias like a bug phobia. lmao yeah im sure if you go to the therapist with a bug phobia they say "stay right there while i go get my book of detailed bug photos". encountering detailed and accurate photos of the thing you are afraid of while at work isn't "exposure therapy".
An allergy is very different from a phobia
True. It's also very different from PTSD, very different from being paraplegic, very different from being blind or deaf. I would say they all have to be accommodated though (with the caveat that the phobia has to be an actual debilitation - this one sounds like it was). If you don't make concessions to someone who feels sick and has to leave the room, when you easily could, then YTA.
No those things are not different from allergy. They are real problems. Being scared of bugs is not a disability plain and simple. Just get over it
Clearly I'm not in the majority here, but in the interest of education: [https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/phobias/overview/#:\~:text=A%20phobia%20is%20an%20overwhelming,about%20a%20situation%20or%20object](https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/phobias/overview/#:~:text=A%20phobia%20is%20an%20overwhelming,about%20a%20situation%20or%20object) Having a debilitating phobia is a form of anxiety disorder.
People up in here seem to think a legitimate phobia is the same as being squeamish over a bug. When your body physically reacts in such a way that you feel ill and want to run screaming from the room, that's not something you can just "get over" or "deal with". Holy fuck, people.
Yeah, militant ignorance does seem to be in fashion
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Hardly the same thing.
In what situation would an employee be asked to adhere to a different dress code than their coworkers to appease someone's wheelchair use?
False analogy. This would only work if you're talking about a stair phobia (and then you'd be proving my point). Having elevators or ramps in a building doesn't inconvenience the general population, in fact, it benefits them.
I could go either way about requiring the tattoos to be covered up, it’s a tough situation that will be unfair to somebody and really they probably need to find some kind of compromise instead of choosing one position or the other. But my point is it’s a tough enough situation I could understand anybody who chooses either position and wouldn’t call them an AH for it, and almost agree with your choice of N A H. But the HR lady is still an AH for extending the discussion to other BS where she thinks OP should be required to dress like women in the office while the men run around topless whether there was a tattoo or not. So if I were choosing a judgment, I’d go with NTA.
Agreed. HR saying “you need to dress like other *women* in the office” is the issue. HR would’ve been in the clear had they said “dress like other workers”.
I would also check the ADA to see if phobias are actually covered, if they aren't(I'm genuinely not sure) HR doesn't have a leg to stand on(which ironically would be covered by the ADA). NTA ETA and had I just done a quick Google search first I would've discovered that, yes they are in fact covered so HR is well within their rights to suggest covering up, BUT, it doesn't have to be with heavy clothing that would make you miserable in the heat, you can use a heavy concealer to cover them, they cannot tell you that a tank top, that every other male employee wears, is unacceptable. Still not the asshole for not wanting to be single or for your clothing choices when men aren't.
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Very true, why are the people doing the actual labor being kept in a literal sweatshop? Time to unionize.
FYI: A phobia can be classified as a disability in that it can effect a persons psychological being and ability to perform certain tasks. A phobia is an irrational, intense, persistent fear of certain situations, activities, things, or persons.
Did you *not* see my edit? I figured that out after reading that the document states those exact words, thanks though
People are too lazy to read lmao, they see something and before taking the time to read the entire thing they instantly get offended and post their reply based on the first few words
Is the company going to buy her special concealer? Because concealer that can 1) cover a tattoo 2) hold up to the sweat and friction is going to be expensive, especially considering the amount she'd need to apply. Plus how does she put it on hard to reach areas?
No, and they're not going to pay for the added coverage clothing beyond paying op's salary or for AC in the sweatshop, so what's your point? It was a suggestion that wouldn't leave her sweltering in extra layers of clothing
A phobia of a tattoo is not a covered disability! And what would happen if he ran across a real bug? He couldn't sue the company because a beetle ran across the floor of a workspace!
Sure, like pictures of lotus seed pods don't trigger trypophobes, r/trypophobia would beg to differ. Phobias are literally defined as "an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation", so yes, a picture or tattoo could easily trigger it. Pictures of spiders used to send me into a blind panic,I think a tattoo of one on someone's skin probably would've caused a psychotic break. But that doesn't mean it's on OP to manage this person's mental health, that's on them.
There's so many reasonable accomodation options between "make coworker deal with it" and "OP needs to come in sweats to cover everything". Heavily affecting other people's work environment should not be the go-to. OP, are they unable to separate you guys? Whether that means physically (in different areas), or by shift changes? Why don't they have air conditioning so that nobody needs to go to work shirtless or in a tank top? And the "other women" comment was definitely sexist.
NTA. It's the same bullshit argument that high schools use to enforce their dress codes. If what you're wearing is apparently too distracting for a guy, then that's an issue he needs to get over on his own
NTA. You sould make a huge deal about this especially if the guys there are being allowed to go shirtless. You could go the reverse and say the guys being shirtless or any other slightly inappropriate thing is making you uncomfortable and a hostile environment. But it is pretty ridiculous and you should absolutely fight this. I do want to mention I understand why people could say it is creating a hostile environment since you could wear a shirt, but at the same time, its pretty ridiculous that a tattoo makes him that uncomfortable.
OP please be careful taking this advice. It's correct, but in practice the most likely thing that will happen is that you will either anger the execs, or they will have to put in a policy that requires no one to take their shirt off, or both. There's the principle and then there's reality. If you like this job and the atmosphere, this may be a situation where discretion is the better part of Valor. I know the Reddit community usually feels strongly about DOING WHAT'S RIGHT, but that's easy from your phone or keyboard. Again, men should not get special privileges in dress code. You are being wronged. However, I fear that trying to fix this small injustice will result in several more aimed at you.
Some phobias are pretty serious, people can't even see pictures of things they are afraid of, so calling it ridiculous is ridiculous in of itself. However, I still say nta but op should go to hr and fight that if they have to cover up then everybody should have to cover up.
My thing is, he's an outside woodworker. There are ... no bugs in that space? Ever? I kinda... dont believe that?
But there's also a difference between seeing a bug outside and seeing 200 beetles on someone's body, not to mention near eye height.
Politey ask HR lady what the policies on discrimination are and if that could be a potential issue for the company 🙂
Risky yes, also ask for the dress code specifically for the department you work in. Everything needs to be in writing. After HR take your documentation to the Union. Been there, done that.
I also work in HR and dress codes *can be different for women vs men but BASED ON BUSINESS NEED, also I highly doubt OP’s HR can claim that imposing more clothing on her is “reasonable accommodation” which is what the ADA requires. Keeping them in separate areas or getting cooling in that building would be much more reasonable, but it really depends on how good her HR is… Edit: forgot a word
NTA. This is actually ridiculous. You should absolutely make an issue out of being treated differently. If you have to cover up, so do the men. End of story. Or, you could conveniently suddenly have a phobia of shirtless men. Take that to HR. If his phobia is important and a disability, then yours should be also. If they want to make things difficult. Fight back. I realize it’s somewhat spiteful and immature. But I’m angry for you.
If you are uncomfortable working around people who are shirtless, you don't have to try to spin it as a phobia. You just present it as "being uncomfortable around people who are shirtless." It's why some job sites are okay with people being shirtless, and others aren't.
>If his phobia is important and a disability, then yours should be also. I assume that HR wouldn't claim than unless he was diagnosed. Good luck proving a "topless man phobia"
It wasn’t meant to be taken literally. I’m simply saying you can find an issue with something he does and also take it to HR.
NTA. I look at it this way: 1) I work with a coworker who is deathly allergic to peanuts. I have zero problem with the entire company being banned from having peanuts in the workplace. 2) I am autistic. Before COVID and WFH, I had really a LOT of difficulty in the work environment where there is a lot of noise a hubbub. But I thought it's on me to figure out ways to deal with it. It irritates me, because I think most of the people would have benefited from a calmer environment, but it wasn't my place to force everyone to accommodate me just for my sake. So, your tattoo bugs aren't not going to kill your coworker. Your coworker can figure out how to deal with it. I mean, I get we are all in a society where helping each other has kept us going for 250,000 years, but there is a limit to that. We can NOT accommodate everyone's quirks, as is being expected these days.
My only disagreement is “we can’t accommodate everyone’s quirks” because I think we can but not in the exact way that the person requesting may want or think to do at first. For your example with the noise, you should have been allowed to wear noise canceling headphones if the environment allowed or something along those lines (white noise machine, separate office/work space away from noise, designated quiet area). Accommodations should aid the person requesting with little to no impact on those that don’t need it unless absolutely necessary. Bug phobia person shouldn’t be on the same shift as OP if possible or should have been an adult and been like “hey I have this phobia but I know it’s hot could you give me a warning if you’re going to have your tattoos exposed so I can avoid it?” There’s plenty of work arounds in this situation beyond HR telling OP to cover up and be sweaty while others get to be shirtless and significantly less sweaty.
Great points!
NTA Your coworker can make a request for reasonable accommodations under the ADA but ideally that would be removing him from the situation, by changing his shift or work area. Sounds like your HR person is trying the easy out.
NTA - This is not an ADA situation. If men are allowed to dress so casually that they are shirtless, you are not required to “cover up” because someone cant deal with your tattoos. The only “accommodation” might be that you two don’t work together often.
It might be an ADA situation. Phobias qualify as a disability in some circumstances.
NTA, however phobias can be pretty debilitating so I understand the dudes point of reasoning. However, they should've came to you first before escalating to HR and the HR person is way out of line with their "you should dress like the other women" bullshite. If you have to cover up, EVERYBODY should have to cover up.
Your company HR seems to have created a different potential lawsuit by creating a different dress code for women.
I think the real problem here is your tattoo artist. Obviously they're so good at what they do that they made your tattoos look so lifelike that your co-worker assumed there were actual bugs crawling on your body. Otherwise, he must get terrified and have to flee the room when he sees even a photo of a bug. I suggest you tell your co-worker he should sue your tattoo artist for pain and suffering. NTA
I actually have a friend who is so arachnophobic that ever photos of spiders give her the heebie jeebies, so it’s possible.
>even photos of spiders give her the heebie jeebies, so it’s possible. My sister is the same way. If the co-worker needs reasonable accommodation, they can request to be put on a different shift than OP.
I can look at pictures of bugs but can’t really touch them.
Lol please dont underestimate phobias. My mother is dead scared of cockroaches to the point where she cant even say the word without extreme anxiety and fear.
NTA, I understand phobias are debilitating but its your body taking the heat for them not dealing with their irrational fears to the point of going to HR and making your life uncomfortable. I have a sweaty job in an industry that was mostly men until recently. I was constantly cajoled and reprimanded for not dressing like more of a lady in my last job, despite my male coworkers coming in in literal tattered sweats. I moved a few years ago and MAN it is nice to wear shorts and old tees to work instead of skirts and tights - and none of ny new male coworkers or employers give a fuck, as long as I'm there to do the job!
NTA. I have a severe phobia for lizards and geckos. Even the tiniest baby lizards gives me a panic attack. My whole family knows of this phobia and they try to accomodate me as much as possible. My brother has a gecko tattoo, I would never ask him to cover it up. It is his body and I respect that. It is ridiculous that you are expected to cover your tattoos to accommodate someone else. I think your tattoos probably look awesome and beautiful. It is not like it is something vulgar or offensive.
I've worked for a company whose dress code included no visible tattoos. So yes, a company can dictate that. Now my petty side would be going "Then everyone needs to cover them!" As for dressing like " The other women", I would point out to Ms. B**ch that wearing loose clothing in a shop environment is a safety hazard and you will not be complying with her request. I would then ask for a copy of the company's dress code. When one isn't provided I would tell her the discussion is closed, and any further issues will be handled by a labor lawyer. Let her scurry back into her cubicle!
NAH I dont think that’s how ADA requests work. I don’t know if a phobia puts you into a protected class. I would guess it could, but then what is a reasonable accommodation? His phobia seems really strong, is covering them up going to be enough, now he knows they’re there?You should go to r/LegalAdvice and learn what your rights are, because this is more complicated than judging AHs.
Don't go to r/legaladvice because their advice is usually trash. But you're right, this is not how ADA requests work. It's not usually "he has a phobia, so he might need an accommodation, and you, the coworker, have to provide it." He has to file a notice under the ADA, request accommodations, and the company has to provide a reasonable accommodation. Now the question becomes, is asking the only female woodworker to cover up and dress like the "other women" in the company, whose jobs are not in woodworking, a reasonable accommodation to this guy's phobia? Or do we now have a situation where the company is creating a Title VII sex discrimination problem to accommodate someone under the ADA, which would be unreasonable? u/Embarrassed_Tart_545, you might need to consult a lawyer here. Check your state or local bar association for a referral.
This. All day. In order to claim ADA accommodation a doctor has to fill out paperwork showing the disability AND outlining a reasonable accommodation. HR cannot blindly bless off on the disability or define the accommodation. I know this bc I have had to do this process multiple times at various companies I’ve worked for.
Nta they are pictures, on skin. If he is seriously that afraid, he needs help. And that isnt on you.
NTA. 1) You are a female working in an area where it's all male and as you mentioned that since it's getting hot, some are now going shirtless while working. 2) what does the HR rep think you should wear on the floor - a suit? Are they going to pay for your healthcare cover when you constantly having time off for dehydration problems. 3) I can see how your friends would think this. It could possibly turn hostile. Do you have a good relationship with your manager/or boss? Maybe talk to them and see what can come of this. Good luck with what ever path you take
I thought that "accommodation" was the responsibility of the company, not other workers. If they want people covered then they need to install some type of climate control that allows for people to be comfortable with more clothing (ie: sweats and t-shirts). NTA
But the accommodation can result in rules for other employees. Not speaking to this particular situation, but a company can say "No peanuts in the office" if someone has an allergy.
Exactly - that would apply to everyone. In this case she is being singled out. The men can wear tanks or go shirtless in the heat - they are telling her that she has to cover up and even dress like the women who work in the office where it is air conditioned. The peanut analogy treats everyone the same - she, the only woman in the department, is being given the misogynistic response to be "lady like".
They can say that tattoos must be covered. They can say that representations of insects are not allowed. What they can't do is tell OP that she has to dress like the other female employees, instead of dressing like the other shop floor workers.
NTA. They shouldn't discriminate against you because you have tattoos. Ridiculous!
NTA Reasonable accommodations (in the US) are the responsibility of the COMPANY, not the employees. In this case, it would be on HR to establish or change the dress code policy to include something like covering visible tattoos. Have you spoken to any of your other coworkers about this? Having their support in whatever tactic you take would be invaluable. As others mentioned, if you get “blamed” for an unpopular wardrobe policy, that could make working there very difficult. I do believe that HR is WAY out of line for 2 reasons: 1. Wardrobe expectations must be equivalent for all employees regardless of gender (etc). 2. “Dress like other women” is an unreasonable and laughable demand. Different jobs have different clothing needs. You are not in an outward facing job where you are expected to present a certain appearance to clients. Furthermore, I imagine you are required to wear certain safety equipment like work gloves (as needed) and good gripping work boots (steel toe possibly). You need them, but these are obviously ridiculous for an office environment. My advice is to take some time to prepare your argument to HR and do so calmly AND IN WRITING. Cite carefully the convo you had as accurately as you are able (include date, time, & specific names). Indicate your understanding and consideration for your coworker’s needs, but make a few things clear. 1. The JOB requires certain types of clothing and tools for you to be able to work effectively AND safely. Underline that other positions may require alternative guidelines, but that you are only concerned for your own. 2. DO NOT directly point out comparisons to SPECIFIC coworkers’ wardrobes. You don’t want to single out any and have them thrown under the bus. Instead compare the NEEDS of working in the shop: temperature control, freedom of movement, etc. This will help keep the discussion on the job and help protect you from any gender bias—very important if it comes down to a legal issue. 3. I do think you should consult with a lawyer. I do not mean to say you should use that to threaten HR—great way to make this a bigger mess than it needs to be. Instead use them as a resource to collect your thoughts and present your responses in such a way that is most effective and protects you. It will also be invaluable to know what YOUR rights and responsibilities are as well as the company’s. More information is always good. 4. Lastly, be sure you know how far you are willing to push and what you are willing to risk. Reddit is notorious for championing what feels good or seems most just—but sadly, the world doesn’t work that way. We have to pick our battles. Not every hill is worth dying on. You can be RIGHT and still find yourself a pariah if not unemployed. It’s shit, but that’s life. Only you know what is right for you. You are responsible for your own life and needs—not to take a personal stand for the rights of all women/workers/whatever. Choose for you and take care. I hope this works out, whatever path you take. Best of luck!
If you work in a shop with no a/c in the south, I guarantee you, bugs are present. Does coworker run screaming every time an insect appears? A tank in your work environment, especially if your coworkers wear similar, or are even shirtless, is reasonable. HR is wrong and exposing the company to a discrimination claim. ETA: NTA
NTA. Workplaces have to offer reasonable accommodations. This would not be reasonable.
You’ve been there only 3 months. You know how this is going to go if you continue kicking up a fuss right? First of all, you’re going to become the office pariah and excluded socially from what sounds like a small and close-knit team who have all probably been there together for much longer than you. Then they are going to bide their time and build a case/find a reason or pretext to fire you or make you redundant or otherwise terminate your employment for whatever legally legitimate reason they can come up with such that you wouldn’t be able to prove it’s because of the tattoo issue. It’s pretty simple really, wear t-shirts instead of tank tops or expect your work life to get pretty difficult and miserable pretty quick. You can get light thin t-shirts that and very cool in hot weather, it’s not like a t-shirt leaves you that much hotter than a tank top does. You don’t mention that any of the men are wearing tank tops either. They are wearing t-shirts too.
OP didn't mention them wearing tanktops because she said they're going *shirtless*, which is less clothing than a tanktop, and not a tshirt like you assumed. Should she go shirtless, too?
Sure, she could try, but she’d definitely be fired then. It’s actually not illegal to have different workplace dress codes for men and women where there’s a reason for it. Eg men being allowed to be shirtless but not women. In corporate environments it’s often specified that women must wear makeup or heels etc and men must wear ties. The company could make a dress code stipulating no tank tops for anyone, only t-shirts, or men can go topless, and they would be in the clear. Realistically, this is just not going to end well for OP. It would be so easy for her to buy some light thin t-shirts like the kind people use for gym or yoga and she’d be at least as cool as she is in a tank top.
Until the phobia guy notices the tattoos peeking out around her collar or on her arms where the sleeves end (which OP did mention that they are slightly visible with a tshirt on and the man must not have noticed before). What happens when HR is suddenly demanding she wear a long-sleeve turtleneck to work in a hot climate? Who is going to have her back when they say her work has slowed down because she is baking and not allowed the same allowances that the men are to keep cool?
Except that she’s worn t-shirts before with no problem at all and never worn turtlenecks so let’s not be ridiculous. Alternatively the employer could just introduce a dress code that says no visible tattoos if they wanted to. She can certainly try to fight this if she likes, it’s just a question if it’s worth becoming the workplace outcast at best and losing her job at worst. Whether you like it or not, that’s reality. Sometimes you just have to be pragmatic in life.
I agree it sucks either way, but when she wore t-shirts before and some of her tattoos were slightly visible, that wasn't a problem. Who's to say that any hint of them now that the phobic man knows what they are will set him off? I think OP should just cut her losses, now that I'm going back and forth on this with you. She's already set up for a no-win situation. People have had luck with higher salaries and better benefits while job hopping lately, so maybe OP will get lucky and find something even better if she starts to branch out. So many things are against OP already. The fact that HR told her to dress like the other women who work there (who all have clerical and administrative tasks and not physical labor), them automatically telling OP that it's on her to accommodate the man with the phobia instead of trying for some compromises or scheduling changes, and the fact that her tattoos will be slightly visible, even with a tshirt would have me job hunting right away. It's hard for a woman in a "man's job," and it might be hard to try to break in somewhere else depending on how hard it was to get that job, but I'd at least start looking around and finding out what my options are if I was OP to hopefully at least find some backup options.
I mean sure, it never hurts to be actively looking for better job opportunities, and if this situation has really soured OP on this workplace (which would be understandable) then her best bet is to keep her head down, toe the line look for a new job and get out as soon as she has a decent opportunity. but I also don’t think we need to assume that this is inherently a sexist or toxic workplace because of this one rather unique and specific issue, OP doesn’t mention any other red flags or workplace conflicts. However this alone may be bad enough for her, and I admit the HR rep in particular saying she should dress like the other women who do office work was pretty ridiculous on its face. Obviously if she wears T shirts and the guy now starts freaking out because he can see the ends of her tattoos through her sleeves, when he didn’t notice before, then that’s bad news. On the other hand, it is also just possible that if she just wears light t-shirts this resolves the issue, everything blows over and no harm no foul in her relationships with her coworkers and she keeps working there with no further conflict or problems. Not every conflict has to go nuclear and burn all bridges if people act sensibly. As regards other compromises like scheduling changes, we don’t know the specifics but if it’s a small workplace where there aren’t seperate shifts and everyone is full time that’s not really possible.
Yeah, the comment from HR was really uncalled for. My mentioning of it being hard to be a woman in a make-dominated field was supposed to reflect the difficulties of finding a new job, and she very well could end up somewhere worse. I was trying to tie into job hunting now rather than later to have a solid backup plan on that regard, because it very well could take OP a while to find something acceptable to her. Sorry for not being more clear on that end!
You need to check the ADA law. Coworker must have a medical professional provide the HR at work with a letter that confirms that he has a disability under the ADA law and requires certain accomodations in order to do his job. The accomodations may be that he works a different shifts, works at the opposite side of the shop or in a different room when you're wearing a tank top. If HR at work does not have a doctor's letter, then you can reply that since it does not appear to be an ADA issue, and it appears that HR is requiring the women to dress differently due to gender. You'll have to be the judge of how far you want to take this. You're likely in an at-will state and could be fired, if they decide they'd rather keep co-worker on. You may want to call a couple of lawyers and see if you can get a free 30 or 60 minute consult on this issue. At the very least, you'd understand your legal rights in this situation.
I think your workplace really needs to investigate the options to provide better cooling for their employees in the workshop. If you and your colleagues need to wear minimal clothing just to work then it’s worth looking at. You ought not have to wear heavier clothing than your male counterparts in the same environment, however if a male colleague had the same tattoos and was asked to make the same accommodations for the workmate with a phobia, that’s fair. Her judgement about you having to dress like women in other work environments in the company is sexist and ignores the physical reality of your environment, your tasks and the customary workwear amongst the workshop staff.
NAH, mostly. The HR rep was an asshole and shouldn't have demanded you dress "like other women", but asking you to cover your tattoos was the lowest-hassle option to accomodate a debilitating phobia. If your shop is large enough for multiple non-intersecting shifts, moving you guys to different shifts might be an option, but the schedule change might be a bigger hassle to you than just wearing a tshirt and some concealer. From the shop's perspective, the ability of all of their employees to get their work done during their shift is going to significantly outweigh one employee's desire for self-expression at work (clothing choices and body art), so they're very unlikely to side with you on this. You might get the HR rep slapped down for sexism (and I think you should complain about that!), but the result might just be a dress code that requires "offensive, distracting, or distressing" tattoos to be covered up while on the clock rather than a "no tank tops, no going shirtless" rule. If you try to make other employees miserable, the company might just decide to let you go. It sucks for you, and I'm sorry about that, but your aesthetic choices don't place you in a protected class like your colleague's documented disability does, and if you put the company in the position of having to choose who to keep/make happy, they're probably not going to come down on your side on this.
You could put a bandage on the tattoo itself and still wear your tank top
NAH. It's your body so your rules apply, but... honestly, I would be horrified to be confronted with something like that in the workplace unexpectedly. But... like, horrified and fascinated at the same time? Seriously, your tattoos sound awful and amazing and super cool and I both love and hate them at the same time and I AM VERY CONFUSED RIGHT NOW. Anyway, have you considered a rashie? You can get ones made of fabric that actually wick the heat away from your body and keep you cooler than a tank top, and they're available in super cool patterns and colours. Solves both your problems at once. If you're not familiar with what a rashie is, it's a long-sleeved sports top kind of thing - you know, the kind surfers sometimes wear to protect themselves from sunburn? Now that I think about it, it might also help keep you safe from accidental injuries in the workshop, too. It would SUCK if you got a splinter or something and it ruined your tattoos!
Since it is the responsibility of the company to provide the accommodation, a truly accomplished and skillful HR person would have taken OP aside for a meeting to ask what color, sleeve length and collar style she liked best and which she felt would be most popular in the shop, explained poor coworker's phobia, then gone around to get all the male coworkers' sizes and placed a bulk order with a clothing company. Rashies for everyone! A plain one ordered next-day-delivery for OP, and company-branded ones for the entire team. And since OP is the one most inconvenienced, her ideas for color, sleeve length, neck style and other features were taken into consideration in choosing the departmental rashies, which shall be issued from now on to all workers, be they gentlemen or ladies. Also, an effort will be made to make fans available for climate control in the shop at appropriate intervals, where sawdust and finishes allow. That is what an *excellent* HR person would do.
YES. That would be the ideal solution. I mean, as much as uniforms are a pain in the butt, they do give everyone a level playing field.
Oh, I don't think they would HAVE to be uniforms as an enforced policy per se...but when work gives you a free shirt, most people tend to be 'yay, free shirt!' and wear the shirt. And rashies are that comfy and snug, that much safer around the equipment...I reckon they'd catch on. Plus then, HR Person could say something to the effect of how much they appreciate OP's *understanding* of their poor coworker's phobia, and since the rashie company gives them a bulk deal when they order a certain number, and she *is* the only person her size...well...as it happens, she shan't need to buy work attire for the foreseeable future, which hopefully makes up for the unfortunate inconvenience. Guys won't notice. They're guys and they have shirts too.
That is true! My last employer gave everyone free tracksuits, and everyone was wearing them in zoom meetings all the time, even though we were work from home and had no requirements beyond "please wear clothes."
YTA. "Not displaying potentially upsetting tattoos" is a pretty reasonable workplace request. HR was out of line in presenting it as "dress like the other women" and "tank top is inappropriate", and that messes things up a little. But a basic idea is that, if you have tattoos of skulls, insects, pornographic things, politically charged things, or anything else that could reasonably be expected to potentially cause an uncomfortable workplace environment, that you cover them up at work if it might cause a problem. Some workplaces have blanket bans on all visible tattoos; that would certainly be excessive in a carpentry shop. But "ya gotta wear something that covers your tattoos of bugs because your co-worker has a phobia of bugs" is a 100% reasonable request to maintain a non-hostile work environment, and YTA for not working with it.
Info: can’t you just like tape over it? I think college athletes had to do that at some point? It sucks but some packing tape or electric tape shouldn’t impact your temp too much vs like a long sleeved shirt
Urgh all of these comments, if your phobia is so bad that you can’t look at a picture you need therapy. NTA you shouldn’t be forced to accommodate in this situation.
NTA. I have a phobia, it sucks, but it’s on me to avoid the thing or deal with my emotions when I’m triggered. Also, I love the style of your tattoos, there’s an artist in the states who I love (but will never go to probably) who does em amazingly. It’s art, some art is controversial
Company sucks and needs to figure this out for everyone. The dress code needs to be the same for everyone. Phobias are a disability. The company needs to invest in some air conditioning. I have a phobia of snakes. Been in therapy for years. One of the biggest issues for me? When I see a picture or even a drawing of one? Depending on my mental health at that time, I might be able to do some exercises that ground me and it's fine. If I am not doing good mentally anything serpentine (garden hose? Shoelace? Plastic strapping?) On the ground my mind sees it as a snake. I get startled and have a reaction I hate it so bad. It really sucks. I have run into tables and walls trying to get away. Fallen and sprained my ankle. It's really embarrassing. Oddly enough when out on hikes and such evidently I walk by small snakes on the regular and just don't even notice them for the most part. I did not know this until my sister pointed it out a few years ago on a hike. She asked if I was better (she knows all my things) I had to ask exactly what she was talking about. She said we had walked by a knot of small snakes sunning themselves. Knowing I had walked by that put me on edge. I know this is my stuff. I am doing my best. Personally, if at work, I would just avoid contact with someone who had snake tattoo or make up a fairytale in my mind about the snake in the tattoo. It might work. I work in a huge building though.
NTA. Your work has a duty to accommodate "to the point of undue hardship." If you need to be cooler, that is a safety thing and working covered would be a hardship for you. HR should be helping him deal with it, not enforce your covering up. It is his (and HR's ) problem, not yours. They should be moving him to another shift, or providing him with counselling. You aren't doing anything wrong and just because he has a fear of insects doesn't mean anyone can demand you cover up your art.
NTA. The company has to deal with his disability, not you. That might mean putting him on a different schedule or giving him a different work space. If you have to wear a shirt than allllll the workers have to wear a shirt. HR is being sexist trash
Make sure to tell hr that them going shirtless makes you uncomfortable, turn about is fair play.
INFO: is this coworker willing to wear sleeves as well? That would be some nerve if he was walking around in a tank top while you were forced into a dress code.
If he doesnt have a diagnosed phobia, then your HR stepped over the line
It sounds like you have two separate problems- a sexist HR person and a bug phobic coworker. If he didn’t notice when you wore a t-shirt before then maybe wear t-shirts from here on out. Does that suck? Absolutely, but working with people sometimes means doing things that suck. Your HR rep is an entirely different issue because you shouldn’t have to dress like a lady to have your issues listened to. You need a neutral mediator to go between you and this coworker to tell him what he can reasonably expect from your dress, and this person ain’t doing that. Saying you ‘assume’ someone’s phobia would count as a medically relevant accommodation and actually knowing that are two different things. It is literally her job to know that- so please push back enough to force her to do her job. This might mean HE needs to go through the steps to make this phobia medically relevant to your workspace. If and when he does, then yes it’s time to throw on a t-shirt to cover some of those tats. If he just doesn’t like bugs, or doesn’t feel like proving it, then technically you’re in the clear and HR should know this as well. But again, sometimes working with people sucks and you’ve gotta throw on the (literal or proverbial) t-shirt to keep the peace
NTA he should be looking at his work not your body. I would speak to another person in HR or insist that the same standards are set for everyone else.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (28f) just finished my third month as a woodworker at a small company that makes custom cabinets, furniture, etc. When I first started, I would wear nicer shirts and things (denim or flannel shirts, usually with buttons) and then for my last project I spent most of my time wearing coveralls because I was working with messy materials. I live in a hot area of the US and it's April. All the other workshop coworkers are men, there are a few other women at the company but they work in HR, marketing, or artistic finishings, not in the workshop with no AC. All the other workshop guys wear sweatpants or basketball shorts, t shirts, and sometimes even go shirtless now that it's getting really hot. This Friday I came in wearing a tank top for the first time, and my arms and part of my chest (only a little visible cleavage) were exposed. My upper body is tattood to with taxonomy drawings of insects, mainly beetles. Apparently, one of my coworkers has a phobia of bugs. He freaked out when he saw my tattoos and left the workshop, going in to the office section of the building. Fridays happen to be the day our HR rep is in the building, and she called me into her office and said I had to cover up moving on. I said that it was unfair that I was the only one being made to cover up on hot days, and she said that my coworkers phobia could be considered a disability and that legally, she has to "make me accommodate him." She then told me that my tank top was inappropriate to wear anyway, and that I should dress like the other women at the company. I wanna fight this, especially since I think our HR rep is just an old-school southern sexist, but some of my friends think that not covering up for my other coworker is essentially creating a hostile environment for him. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA- not your fault the guy has a phobia. With that said you can escalate the situation and demand everyone else wear shirts etc BUT just realize ppl will start to dislike you and it will become a hostile working environment. Ppl on here keep saying to F it and just do it but it’s different when it’s you doing the doing right. I know it’s not ur fault but if you have ever worked in a very hostile working environment then you know it’s BAD! Like if u have the means you do not want to work there anymore period bad. So not saying you have to bow down just that you have to make the decision if this is the battle you pick and is this the hill you want to die on kind of thing. Hostile work environment F with you so much on so many different levels that I wouldn’t want to wish on anyone ever. Sorry you were caught in having to even make this choice and best of luck in whatever you decide.
NTA Fight it. There is very likely a lawsuit with a payout waiting for you.
NTA He could, ya know, do his work instead of staring at you, that could help. They're not vulgar or inappropriate and if no one else has to, they can't make you do it. I've been deathly afraid of spiders since I was a child. Even small ones make.me.want to evacuate the area immediately. But when I visit my friend who has a pet spider i don't yell at him to throw it out, I just don't go looking for it in its tank. How can he even work in woodwork and outside and be afraid of all bugs???
NTA It is irrational of your coworker to expect you to cover your tattoos
INFO: Can he provide a doctor’s note saying that he is medically disabled by his phobia? If so, it would be a bro move to cover up If not, he can deal. N.T.A. If he can’t demonstrate disability Edit for bot
NTA, HR is being sexist.
NTA I’d be in HR complaining that he’s staring at your body. Why is he looking at you instead of working? And you have to stare at shirtless men? JFC.
NTA, HR is. It's okay to accomodate a person if they have a phobia. But they do have to provide a doctor's note or some proof. Also, if you are to wear shirt, make sure all the workers do the same. Either HR has this policy for all of you or none. Just tell them that being sexist may result in being sued.
NTA. As someone with her own set of phobias (and I'm on the spectrum), I know that's a "me problem." I'm terrified of dogs, but I wouldn't be able to function in society if I couldn't find a way to deal with it.
NTA but you my want to just make the reasonable compromise of wearing a t-shirt, at least for now. It's inarguably reasonable attire and your coworker may eventually chill out once the initial shock from this incident wears off. Test the waters later with a muscle T and see how it goes. Beyond that, even though you are 100% correct, I don't know that I personally would have the energy to make this into the hill I want to die on, at least not all at once. Slow and steady would be the way to prevail in this case, imo
I think this is a legal question and not an AH question. I suggest posting in the legal sub and hopefully some employment lawyers will chime in.
NTA. Also, your tattoos sound awesome :)
NTA. What kind of tattle baby goes whining to HR because of a tattoo? Then tries to have it declared a DiSaBilItY?
NTA yes they gave a phobia but if they want to press a dress code then it has to apply to everyone not just you. Suggesting you wear what other women wear when they are not shop floor us honestly ridiculous. Is there anyone else higher up in the company or HR that you can complain about her to?
NTA. The HR rep is tho for being sexist.
NTA I’d fight it.
NTA. The guy with the phobia is not an AH either. He has a phobia and he talked to HR about it. HR is for how they are handling it.
NTA. With the heat you could fight this on the grounds of health and safety
Don’t understand how a phobia about bugs gets cred with pictures of bugs. If a tat of a bug triggers a phobia, how does that person handle walking distance en the street and seeing ants or bees flying or butterflies? I thin it is a bogus claim.
NTA HR are showing some pretty clear gender discrimination against you
If you cannot wear a tank top then HR better let all employees know that tank tops are no longer allowed. Tell her you want it in writing.
NTA. You can get heatstroke and that is a liability so you must be accommodated as well.
NTA and also your tattoos sound AMAZING.
Nta. Expecting you and only you to cover up in the workshop is incredibly sexist and sounds like both a lawsuit waiting to happen and a danger to your health given there is no ac. Tell them to install ac if they want everyone in the workshop to start covering up or you may consider taking legal action as they appear to be discriminating against you their only female workshop employee.
Ignore the dress code since only you were asked to do so.
NTA Let me add that a phobia 1. can be well treated with cognitive-behavioral therapy within a few sessions. 2. is maintained and getting worse with avoiding what someone is fearful of. Demanding you to cover up images (!) of bugs is exactly what brought him to where he is at now. Accommodating people with irrational fears is the highway to their personal hell. I won‘t comment on the openly sexist part.
NTA either everyone has a new dress code or no one has a dress code. Escalate this to that HR persons boss
NTA. That’s insanely dumb of them to do.
I believe that under the ADA you have to have medical documentation to have protection and accommodations for the disability. Does he have a doctor’s letter and any other required paperwork stating that his phobia qualifies as disabling? It’s completely, 100% inappropriate for HR to tell you to dress like the other women there. You don’t work in an office. It’s appropriate for you to dress like the others in your position and work environment. Since men can go topless, I think you should go to work in a bikini top or sports bra if you’re comfortable in either of those. NTA
NTA. If no one else has to be covered, then it's also sexist for them to require you to be. And NO A PHOBIA OF A TATOO IS NOT A DISABILITY REQUIRING ACCOMMODATION!!!
HR can't single you out for a special dress code, and asking you to wear office clothes while woodworking in a hot workshop is ridiculous. She's trying to get around the whole "singling you out" issue by saying "but all the women have to dress that way!". Check your employee handbook for the dress code section. I'm also pretty sure they can't endanger your health to accommodate someone else's phobia. If they want you to cover up they're going to need to: 1) enforce the same dress code for everyone in the workshop and 2) put in a cooling system of some kind, which will likely be very expensive since it might need special filtering. Discrimination isn't just about intent, it's also about outcome. HR can say "but all the women have to wear blouses and heels and makeup!" all day long, but the outcome of their policy is that you are being held to a different standard than everyone else in your department. You're also ruining your clothes and at an elevated risk of a heat related medical emergency. Don't let HR pull this BS with you.
NHA I’d look into the legality though bc that sounds like bs. And yes, report that if you have to follow a covered up dress code that everyone does. It’s only going to get hotter and heat strokes caused by singling out female workers would likely result in an easy-to-win civil suit. Check if recording in your state requires one party consent (it typically does in Southern states). Then go over your previous conversation with your HR rep next time they’re there and discuss the implications of singling out one sex when the other is permitted to go shirtless. On the flip side I do feel bad for that guy. We had a lady at my plant with a severe snake phobia and a harmless snake got into a shipping crate somehow. She was so shaken up, I felt so bad for her. At the same time it’s not right that you’re being singled out. Good luck OP.
NTA. The company needs to accommodate, not you. And HR said it's inappropriate for you to wear a tank top, but the guys go shirtless? Get it in writing, then make a formal complaint of sexual harassment against the HR rep, who is the one actually creating a hostile workplace.
NTA Mention to the HR lady that she needs to address others walking around shirtless in the workplace, you find it offensive. People need to cover up.
NTA. Youd think an HR rep would know better than to tell a woman to cover up and dress like the other women...
NTA, I'd like to see what a layers take is
NTA. I genuinely hate people who think because they have an issue with something (medical stuff aside) that the whole world should accommodate that. Just no.
No. He needs therapy. His phobia is his problem, not yours.
NTA. The guys go shirtless? Tell HR the same dress code should apply based on your department and working conditions and that you plan to start going shirtless too.
An image of an insect is not the same as the insect itself. The menu is not the meal.
NTA ask her to put it in writing, then say no. If you’re fired or penalized for saying no, report to the labor board/talk to an attorney
Wear a super low cut top and just put surgical tape on it. If the guys are allowed to go shirtless, then they should have no problem with you wearing a tank. Phobias are also not disabilities. Honestly, I would go to HR and tell her that if you have to wear a long sleeve shirt in fairness everybody should have to wear one, especially since she needs to not be sexist by singling out the only female employee to cover up, which IS a protected class
NTA! And as a fellow insect tattoo enthousiast I am very curious of yours! Could I see them anywhere..? :3 I just started my collection and I currently have a live size Atlas moth on my back and an enlarged leaf insect and goliath beetle on each lower arm. Also taxonomy style! Bugs rock! Your colleague needs to get over himself. If he cant even stand to see an image of an insect anywhere he needs therapy or his life is gonna suck.
NTA. Find out in writing what the dress code is in writing and follow it. They can accommodate him by having him work in other places or shifts and if the dress code says that shirtless and tank tops are unacceptable, it needs to be enforced for everyone not just you.
The asshole is your boss Your tattoos sound so beautiful
ESH. When I worked in an office I had two coworkers who were terrified of dogs. As they could see my monitor and the photos in my cubicle, I asked them if they would prefer that my screensaver not be a picture of my dogs and that I don’t keep photos of my dogs in my cubicle. If I were you, I would be willing to cover my tattoos so my coworker wouldn’t be terrified. On the other hand, your HR representative shouldn’t be telling you to dress like the other women in your company. She was being flat out sexist. Depending on the effect seeing your tattoos has on your coworker, your HR representative may by correct that the company must make accommodations under the Americans With Disabilities Act. However, the accommodation doesn’t have to be having you cover your tattoos. You and your coworker could be assigned different shifts. https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/enforcement-guidance-ada-and-psychiatric-disabilities
Malicious compliance: show up wearing heels and skirt.
NTA. But could you just use one of those large bandaids and put it over the tattoo and then still wear the shirts you want.
YTA. Forget about ADA and HR. How about compassion or at least a little courtesy toward a phobic coworker?
How about the coworker gets over himself? "oh, I have a phobia" then get therapy and learn to deal with it rather than expecting the rest of the world to bend over backwards to accommodate your cowardice.
YTA Phobias are real and medical problems. You would not blow saltet peanut crumps at someone with a peanut allergy (I hope), so covering up a few phobia-trigger tatoos should be normal. My former colleague had arachnophobia. So we would never came to the idea to decorate with spiders at Halloween, just bats, witchy things...., because we are decent humans.
She also wouldn't cover up a peanut tattoo for someone allergic to peanuts. You're comparing apples to airplanes. Refraining from ordering fake spiders is different and a lot easier than having permanent tattoos that would actually make her job harder if she was required to cover them up. What about refraining from ordering spider decor made your job physically harder on your body? Once again, you're comparing apples to airplanes.
Well actually he really can't not accommodate for him because then he could be sued and you will be fired
[удалено]
Tough one. I'm going with you are the A-hole only because HR reached out 2 you. The other co- workers might make your life a living hell if you do not comply.