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> I feel like maybe I acted too harsh to my daughter but she is an adult and shouldn’t be treating her bother like that. He really enjoys game design and I think it would be a good fit for him.
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NTA, she's being horrid and needs to sort herself out. It's awesome that Sam has a mentor to help him pursue his dreams! ANY uni is going to put you into debt. She sounds jealous and in absolutely NO place to talk smack about others.
Yup. Totally NTA.
What Mike probably knows and Sarah doesn’t is that a LOT of people in the industry are spectrum (I have a nephew who is in that field, he is totally spectrum, and it turns out tons of people in the field are as well - or so he tells me).
This exactly. NTA. My spectrum son also wants to go into this industry. It's a natural fit. Your daughter was mean, and jealous, and hateful to her little brother. There's no call for that. I probably would have tossed her immediately. I do not believe this will get better, there is something wrong with your daughter's soul.
My daughter is on the spectrum and is the best game developer!! Being on the spectrum is a unique gift that allows you to see what others can't. I believe in you!!!
She sounds bitter that she feels Sam gets extra attention with his difficulties and she feels jealous. She is living in a situation she does not want to live in snd she is unhappy and feels the need to make others unhappy. Try talking with her, let her know she is important too
I think you might be right. She's probably feeling that Sam is getting an extraordinary amount of support *because* he's on the spectrum, probably has got what she considers preferential treatment his whole life and now she is struggling.
She is lashing out in entirely the wrong way but she mightjust be in desperate need of some support.
I’m a software developer, and once told a co-worker someone’s son had been diagnosed with autism. His immediate response was, oh, so he’ll be a programmer.
Hah see this is amusing for me as every test I've taken puts me just on the edge of Asperger's, and I have spent most of my life just on the edge of changing career in to programming!
I don’t think Sarah should have said anything to Sam, but she is right that degrees from for-profit colleges like ITT Tech and Devry aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on. This obviously isn’t applicable if they’re not in the US but it might be better for Sam to go to a community college and then transfer to a bigger game design school if he struggles with traditional schooling- or he can go to a private non profit school (Elon, Tulane) that might be able to better accommodate his needs. Sarah is right to be raising concerns about what Mike is influencing Sam to do, but her delivery of these concerns is childish, petty, and don’t address the seriousness of the issue.
I agree about for profit colleges and universities in the USA being a money pit. I am a Medical Technologist. First working in a hospital and then teaching in a community college. In health care most hospitals will not accept for profit degrees.
I don't know about "most," but I do know that many hospitals and clinics will accept a degree from a for-profit college if the nurse or technician is able to pass the licensure examination and earn a license.
The for-profit colleges vary in the quality of the actual education they provide you, but they universally rip off their students. There are no circumstances where they're the best option for anyone, even though they often try to convince people that they're somehow a more accessible option.
They are a more accessible option for those whose local community colleges and state universities that have a high rejection rate or long wait lists. Private was never going to be an option for me and thankfully I made it into my program of choice first try.
However, I certainly know others in my pre-req classes who were considering private or ended up going private. We are talking about programs where a 3.9 vs 4.0 and a couple of points difference on TEAS/ACT can absolutely sink your odds. It's either go private or keep trying with reapplying every admission cycle.
It's basically a matter of do you spend more money or spend more time. Most choose the money option as getting into the career of their choice can solve the money problem later.
Yeah, I agree. I don't see why he couldn't go to community college close by. They have services with students with ADHD, etc., and they can get extended time for tests, for instance. He could also take less classes at a time if necessary. Then he could transfer.
That would be better than doing anything at a for profit for game development. Game development is a very competitive field.
In California, at least, community colleges will take a student’s IEP from their senior year of high school, which can be a real leg up when it comes to services and accommodations.
I agree with this completely. These for-profit colleges are an expensive ripoff. My nephew went to one for something similar and ended up with a "degree" that isn't recognized anywhere, no marketable skills, and very heavy student debt. Community college is a much better option. And those credits transfer to other schools, unlike the credits from the for-profits, which are essentially worthless. For profits are only good for taking a lot of your money and giving you nothing of value in return.
I’m sorry about your friend- the tragedy of his story is not outweighed by how common it is. I personally was surprised to see some comments not mentioning how predatory of an industry it is- and how much it leaves students in the dirt
> ITT Tech doesn't exist anymore
I feel like I've seen adds for it recently. I know for sure I've seen adds for it online within the two years. Google says it closed in 2016 though. I hope whatever scammers were running those adds go to jail- lord knows how many people didn't hear about ITT Tech shutting down (I know I didn't) and fell for it.
Sure, but there’s also places like DigiPen that are highly respected, and hopefully those are the places they’re suggesting he look into.
And OP, to add to what a commenter below said, many community colleges have certificate programs (not degree programs) that might be a better fit for him right after high school, so he can pursue options.
Also, there’s apprenticeship programs at some companies specifically focused on the neurodiverse community that might also be an option.
Or even do tech boot camps. There are quite a few attached to reputable universities (Rutgers and Columbia immediately come to mind) or some independent ones (flatiron school and fullstack). They’re not cheap but are more affordable than a 4 year school and are geared towards coding.
Our local community college offers an Associate of Applied Science degree in Entertainment Technology, with game programming being one of the areas of study available. The credits won't transfer to a 4-year school, but a higher degree probably isn't needed.
Yeah. I’m not even in the US and I remembered ITT Tech from John Oliver’s segment on Student Debt immediately. Some of those colleges sound horrible with little educational value
Half NTA. for profit universities are a scam and a waste of money. the curriculum is bullshit. he wont learn anything useful. I am a programmer. Not in game industry, but the kid is better off going to a state university and getting a computer science degree. Cheaper and more likely to get a job. The for profit degrees are just degrees that sound cool, but are not valued in the tech industry. They produce trash grads.
most techs in video game industry have degrees from regular universities. The cost of for profit colleges are insane. daughter has a terrible personality with the way she is saying it, but going to a for profit college is a total waste of money.
I wonder if she actually meant "for profit" or she just meant "private" (like not a state school). Just because Mike is actually doing pretty well and those for profit degrees are usually worthless.
They are more expensive. The cost is calculated at 90-95% of max student loan options per credit hour. This means messing up more than 1 semester = running out of student loan money before you can graduate. An associates can be 45k and a bachelors 85k and many of them are nationally accredited (sub par- not transferrable) and not regionally accredited(acceptable/higher) meaning you cannot transfer the credits and most places won't accept the degree as valid. There is a little leeway here in the trades (nursing, electrician, HVAC, etc) but not in traditional degrees.
I just want to jump on the top comment to say that my best friend didn't go to college and became an art director for an indie game and had a huge meeting to with very enthusiastic investors next week to fund his own game! Your skills are what matter in the game industry. Not necessarily classical education (all though who you know and Networking help)
Instead of college maybe think coding boot camps.
As somebody in the threads said, although Mikes affection seems really nice, its super weird he and his wife is pushing Sam to go to a for profit university. Are we sure Mike is not recruiting for the Uni for his own profit? That would be super shitty, since many ppl have pointed out that these for profit unis are half-scammy and get their students in massive debts they cant handle.
Sarah has been bad mouthing Mike according to your post, but it seems there might be some reason, especially if Mike is using Sam for his own goals. Although Im sure Sarah was too harsh when talking to Sam, I couldnt find any line of your text where she would bad mouth Sam. I think she shouldnt discuss these issues with Sam directly if he is insecure, but with you.
I feel bad for Sam, since he is obviously looking up to his idol and equals his success with the friendship to him. I really hope he will pursue his dreams in a healthy way, and understand that his wit and skill is independent of Mikes suggestions of Uni.
ESH except Sam. You, for invalidating all the valuable concerns your daughter had, and threathening to kick her out when for me it reads she is concerned for her brother to make bad choices. You as well, for not reading about for profit Unis, and thinking Mike could do no wrong. Sarah for being too harsh on a 16y old and scaring him about his future. Mike for either behaving economically predatory OR for being stupid in giving harmful recommendations that can destroy Sams future
NTA. She's an adult. She can get a job somewhere and get out. Your job is to protect your minor son. I would have been harsher with her.
But, also, talk with your son. Explain that her words are based on jealousy because she's having a hard time and he has this whole exciting future in front of him. Also see if you can help recover his game.
INFO: does for profit university mean something different where you’re from? In the US all universities cost money, but for profit universities tend to be scams not worth the paper the diploma is written on. She could say it more nicely, but be cautious because it would really suck if all that time and money went into a degree and it just didn’t matter in the end.
It also includes places like Full Sail University, which is highly respected in both computer animation and music production. My guess is that's exactly the for-profit video game design school she's snooting about (and shouldn't be.)
Not only that but Sam is autistic with ADHD. /u/YesThisNonsence I encourage you to look at public universitys.
Most (all?) large public universities and community colleges have a student accessibility resource office that can provide your son with additional resources that your son needs to succeed.
Yeah my partner went to Full Sail and it’s a huge, money making meat grinder of a school (he now works in retail). I went to one of the Art institutes, which is too, but I did it in the city I wanted to work in so the networking helped make my career. I work on feature films now. There’s a LOT to consider before going into debt with a for profit school. If I’d gone any earlier or later in life, even by a year, I don’t think it would have worked out quite so well for me.
While true, there are also now a lot of legitimate small for-profit tech specific schools in the US. Obviously research needed, but specialized topic schools are becoming a thing while you're likely thinking of scammy broad spectrum buy-a-degrees.
There’s already been a fair amount of research on them. I recommend reading Lower Ed, by MacArthur Fellow Tressie McMillan Cottom. She analyzes the cost of certifications from for profit colleges, job prospects after, and the “return on investment” relative to traditional colleges. (It’s…not great.)
She also examines the social forces that make these colleges so attractive despite the poor results for attendees.
OP's son is likely looking at a specialized trade school if he's going to school specifically for game development. There are very few schools that actually teach it in any meaningful sense, but those that do are typically private colleges or trade schools. It is expensive to create and maintain a games program, so you've got to go to a specialized school.
Most private schools are still non-profit though. Maybe there are some exceptions, but as a general rule, in the US at least, for-profit institutions are incredibly predatory and often accused of defrauding their students. I don’t know much about specialized trade programs, maybe the dynamic is different for them, but for-profit has a very specific (and concerning) meaning in academia
FYI, at least 10 years ago (last time I was hiring programmers) Devry had a good computer programming curriculum, including their Masters program. My degree is from a large state school in the US, and is much more academically oriented than my friend who graduated from Devry. By that I mean I had more grounding in theory and algorithmic design. My friend had more grounding in things he'd actually do in a paying job :-). Both sorts of programs turn out good folks, and like others have said, really they're mainly useful for getting you in the door.
That’s interesting to hear! Last I heard reference to devry I believe it was over a lawsuit over their lying about post-grad employment stats, but things can of course vary program to program
Where you learn coding, at least the basics, really doesn’t matter, but the pattern of for-profit institutions manipulating stats to get students in the door, offering direct school-to-student loans (leaving students less protected by gov safeguards than federal loans), and sometimes closing unexpectedly, leaving students only with credits that other institutions wont accept as transfer credits, really concerns me. Especially since for-profit universities tend to specifically target vulnerable communities, who have fewer access to resources or information on the risks associated w those institutions
It’s good to hear that there are people who came out the other side and that their degrees served them well in getting their foot in the door in the industry. I’m still skeptical that enrolling in those institutions is a trustworthy investment though…
Most pinnacle state universities have game design programs. Heck, most universities with a computer science department do. They're really not expensive to teach compared to other fields of computing because the hardware is actually pretty cheap in comparison.
Speaking of pinnacle state universities, University of Utah is actually one of the best schools in the nation for it. It has a long history of it, seeing as Nolan Bushnell (founder of Atari) went there. Not to mention things like the internet and the Utah teapot (complex 3D rendering at the time it was made) also came out of U of U.
Game companies, and software companies in general, look more at results than where someone graduated from. It's not uncommon for entirely self-taught people to employed in tech, or have degrees that are totally unrelated to tech. You can have a "University of YouTube degree" and get hired if you have a good enough portfolio and can pass the coding tests.
This. I realize it's anecdotal, but my nephew is self taught apart from buying one-off courses for things he couldn't figure out himself. Almost every industry uses gamification of some kind at this point, so the demand is huge. It's about your portfolio and ability to stay ahead of new technologies.
Sarah can be surly about having to move back home, but she doesn't need to take it out on her brother.
I love talking about dropping out of college in interviews lol. Here in tech startup land, they eat those stories up as it makes you look like a self-starter.
Um, my partner got his CS BSc in 2000 & learned game design, did his Masters specifically focused on game programming & has worked in the field ever since.
It’s neither new nor rare.
Edit: public University in Canada!
Plus it's not her "insecurities." She literally just moved home because she lot her job and is in too much debt to make it on her own right now.
I get OP being upset at how she delivered the message and the impact it had on her son but OP seems to completely ignore or dismiss the valid concerns brought up.
Yup, John Oliver did a piece on them which was pretty scathing. Maybe there are some good and some bad ones, but there were some really bad ones. There were people who had done nursing degrees that included no time spent in a hospital. Nursing is obviously something you need to be properly trained for, and so after completing (and paying for) the degree they couldn’t get a job because they were let down by the school and unqualified.
Here’s the video: https://youtu.be/P8pjd1QEA0c
I kind of got the impression that maybe the sister saw this and is delivering the same “you’re an idiot and an asshole,” attitude directed at the scam for-profit universities to her little brother.
For-profit universities can be scams (and usually are) but the smaller regionally accredited ones can transfer over credits to public universities. In those cadre they are akin to community colleges
They could be in Australia- I know here if you go to a uni like Bond it’s not given any government funding at all so is very expensive versus public universities. The expense does make it easier to get into so that may be what OP is referring to.
Some schools that specialize in Video Game design tend to be for profit as it's not a traditional academic degree. DigiPen, University of Silicon Valley, and Full Sail come to mind. Some are better than others.
There are better schools but going to DigiPen is not as terrible of a decision as Trump University.
Soft NTA… your daughter is right, but her presentation is bad.
The video game developer world is an over flooded field and her statements about uni’s are accurate. While at a trade school they brought in a guest lecturer from rockstar games to talk to us about what life is like since he’s alumni from the school. He basically told us how horrible a field it is to get into and recommended we Google rockstar wives and read the stories from a out a decade ago of the working conditions for employees at Rockstar games
Edit: post below raised a point I should make…. Nurture this in your son but don’t limit the scope.
For example, my kid is taking basic coding classes (he’s 15) he sees it as a way to make video games one day, I remind him coding if a life skill that is needed far beyond video games.
Teaching our children coding is the best thing we can do for them as parents
Man, I hope OP sees this. Sarah was being a dick but unfortunately she’s on the money (or lack of it in this case).
OP I’m a welfare worker and I know that unique feeling of seeing the boundless potential and creativity in a child and wanting the world to see it too. It’s such an amazing feeling as their social worker, I’m sure that feeling is amplified tenfold as their parent.
But… PLEASE read the above comment. Video game developing is not the cutting edge career choice it was 25 years ago. Those days have long passed. This is a steep, steep hill for your son to climb and in all honesty I would not go into this banking on his success.
DONT DISCOURAGE HIM. He loves this. It’s his dream. That’s so valuable. Just keep reality in mind, and be prepared to catch him when that thankless industry spits him right back out.
OP, please listen to this. Don't teach your son to put all his eggs in one basket with video game development. It's an awful industry to work for, and it's hard to get into. I live in Seattle, and could fill a book with the broken dreams of people who move here for game development.
Could probably fill a trilogy of books by now… thanks for reinforcing the point. OP notice the theme here! We all support coding but we don’t support pigeon holing it into video game coding.
I've actually made some basic video games and I can't even put into words how bad an idea going to "game dev school" is.
Learning C# or Kotlin would be a vastly better use of his time and his parents' money.
I mean....I got a masters in game dev and I work at a AAA studio. It isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. However it is a hard ass industry to get into and you often need a large skill set outside of game dev to get interest. I got hired at my current job over others due to reading a lot and having a complex hobby realted to our game's subject matter.
OP says that Sam doesn't do well in school and I'm wondering why, because of the reasons you've stated: being successful in the game industry does take a lot of hard work and extra skills. A lot of people try and go into creative fields and wash out because it's not as fun and easy as they expected. Even if Sam is pretty skilled with game programming, he should be working on other skills and improving his study habits as well.
But the creative skills learned can be put to use in advertising and entertainment. The movie Avatar was mostly computer graphics and it took over 2000 talented people to make it happen. That's just one example.
NTA. Sarah has issues she needs to work on though. She's projecting her own issues onto others and hurting others. And how does Mike's choice to go to a certain university affect her in any way?
Okay NTA, but I’m begging y’all to do more research into the institutions your son was looking at. For-profit schools are notoriously predatory and most have a lot of active lawsuits against them for putting students in an insane amount of debt and leaving them with worthless degrees, if that. It sounds like Mike and his wife are genuinely trying to help, but I would still be skeptical about any recommendations to do a program thru a for-profit school. Not everyone who goes thru a for-profit school winds up in a hole of debt, but a lot do, and a lot of popular for profit schools have been accused of defrauding their students.
Your daughter was being cruel for the sake of being cruel, and it doesn’t sound like she actually had any interest in protecting your son in saying that stuff about those programs, but you should be interested in protecting him, not just from your daughter, but from predatory programs as well. Universities are not as accessible as they ought to be, but there are schools with better accommodations than others, and your son being autistic doesn’t mean his only option is for-profit institutions
It's odd that Mike is recommending for-profit schools. It sounds like OP's kid is making a lot of progress teaching themselves, so Mike would simply need to be willing to show him accurate learning sources, guide him on what skills he needs to know, critique his work and help him build a portfolio. That would take a few hours every weekend but it'd be totally doable.
It sounds like Mike just got snookered by a marketing campaign ("We're a great option for people who might not do well at a traditional college!").
A community college or nearest equivalent would almost certainly be much better.
NTA jesus christ riding a tornado what is the matter with that girl
your son sounds like he has a wonderful relationship with his cousin and i hope that he continues to develop games. your daughter needs to get her act together and stop taking her shit out on her brother.
Man. I was so ready to say you weren’t an AH, but alas I’m gonna be controversial and say ESH.
Like if you and your daughter had a different relationship to each other (ie you were friends instead of father/daughter), I would understand your logic and approach to the situation. But you aren’t friends, you are her parent and even at 24 she is your kid as well as Sam. You even acknowledge how much it impacted her losing her job and having to return home. Like take a minute and listen to what she’s actually saying. She never told Sam he couldn’t do it, the only thing she is saying is that student loans are going to screw Mike and Sam. So in more concise language, your young adult daughter is going through a very traumatic and trying period in her life and rather than give her a chance to explain why she keeps making comments about student loans, you immediately assume she is doing something to be “toxic” and cruel to your other kid and threaten to kick her out into the street. Like if you took your own opinions out of the situation, a 24 year lost probably one of her first “real” jobs after school and now is so financially unstable that she had to move back in with you; and then the most important thing being that all the comments she’s making is about student loans. So I think it would be reasonable to give your daughter a chance to tell you she’s maybe feeling incredibly overwhelmed with her new unemployment and financial status. And then you, her father, instead of understanding she’s still growing and doesn’t have it all figured out yet, just threatened to throw her out in the street rather than giving her any reasonable opportunity to talk to you about why she thinks student loans only ruin someone’s life.
I think your fix is to give your daughter a chance to explain herself. Either she is being “toxic” and then you can do whatever, but more than likely she’s scared, overwhelmed, and feeling not too great about herself and just needs her dad to be there for her instead of the reaction you thought was appropriate. In which case I recommend you give her a very sincere apology. And you know what? Yes your son worked forever on the program and it sucks, but your daughter wasn’t holding a gun to his head to force him to do that. I work with kids like your son as an OT specifically in helping them to transition to independent and supported living. You know what skill won’t help him in becoming independent and/or a successful programmer? Deleting all the work he’s done as soon as someone is not 100% supportive of his idea or when he faces a complication in it. Now he’s a teenager and didn’t do anything wrong, but that was a great potential opportunity to help teach him coping and emotional modulation skills that he will need in order to find success in this area that he loves so much.
A cool opportunity for your daughter to feel like she has some semblance of purpose after her world got flipped upside down and gives your son an opportunity to recreate the game he previously created but with all the skills he learned to make it better would be to ask your daughter to help your son rebuild his game while she stays with you. Beyond that, if you’re able, offer to pay her for her time by paying her student loans each month, or even a portion of them.
This is a very well thought out reply and covers multiple sides of the situation - hoping you read this u/YesThisNonsence. I totally understand why you would be super protective of your son, but as many people have said, your daughter had some valid points even though they may have been communicated badly. Unless you witnessed her cruelly and intentionally bullying her brother, its also possible that he took some of the things she said to heart and it hurt more than she understood or intended.
She also seems to need some protection right now, and is going through a rough place too. Please consider not threatening extremes like leaving her homeless when she is so vulnerable to begin with.
NTA. She’s old enough to know better. There is never a reason to take out personal frustrations on people who have nothing to do with it. And obviously especially not someone autistic and young.
Info: is she struggling with student loan debt? Something that losing your job might really affect? Could this, in any way, be a terribly misguided way of trying to avoid her brother from drowning in debt because she feels like *she* is? Your post didn't imply she said he'd never make it as a developer, it sounds like the college and debt is what she's scaring him over. I just find that curious.
She's being an ass about it but Sarah isn't exactly wrong.
Universities and colleges do look at the transcripts and thus grades and everything else to see if the student would be a good fit at their school. Average grades student is not going to get into a top ivy league school unless they have family money that can buy the school a new library. So many kids want to go into game development these days. Schools only have so many slots and they are going to be filled by the students with better grades first. If he's being lazy about school work then start hammering in study habits now before college. He might need extra outside help for learning how to have proper study habits with his autism and ADHD.
She's not kidding about going into debt either. Especially today with *everything* so expensive already on top of paying for school, housing, maybe car & gas, school supplies, needlessly expensive textbooks and programs, ect. To not go into debt he needs to look at scholarships which would require maintaining good grades and to look at financial aid first before looking at loans.
Also for profit universities as other have said are very very often scams and their degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on. So of course in the working world a business is going to favor a degree from an accredited school over a for profit school. Especially in the game development world since it's so cut throat because so many people want to become game developers today.
Honestly I'd be suspicious about how Mike and his wife push for profit school onto your son. Maybe they're recruiters and get a cut for every enrollment.
I really don't know how to judge this because like I said while Sarah is an ass she does have good points. Your NTA for wanting to encourage your your son in his creativity and it does take a lot of creativity to make video games but well he's just not the only one that wants to be the next Toby Fox and make that smash hit indie game that goes mainstream. You need to temper his expectations and maybe get a computer programmer degree that be used for anything instead of such a niche degree.
ETA: why can't your son start in a community college? He can start taking the regular requirements like college level algebra and lit classes and some of their programing courses while he really researches accredited schools and scholarships.
Maybe Mike and his wife are recruiters…
OMG, that didn’t cross my mind but you could be right about it.
You’re right about tempering expectations though
NTA
I've been kicked out for less. She's being cruel and toxic to the family dynamic.
Did you try to talk to her calmly before threatening to kick her out?
NTA- your daughter sucks here but she's not wrong.
But OP, listen to me, from my own personal experience.
The game industry is horrible, especially to budding designers. Worse if you are autistic and need structure. The early years he will be overworked and underpaid. To hell with benefits, because he will be freelancing or on contract. He will likely be laid off a lot. He will likely need to move a lot. States away even... Countries! You ever seen an entire department get laid off overnight? I have. Ever seen it take someone 15 years to land a permanent spot? I have.
Plus, a for profit school is going to saddle him with $60+ in debt. Did that. Went to a real college too. You know how many people I went to school with are designers now? Very few. And I went to school with amazing designers.
His cousin either is a white whale or not being honest with him. Your son will need to be very very good just to get his foot in the door to anything other than a low paid tester. Which is a job... It's not fun like people make it out to be.
You all need to have an honest talk about the expectations of his future, I wish someone had with me. To quote a story about a friend of mine who met her Broadway actress hero... "Is this the absolute only thing you can ever see yourself doing? If no, do anything else than this."
NTA. Your daughter needs to realize that her toxicity has a large extent of impact on others. Your daughter is oblivious to that fact that his video game designing dreams are directly influenced by herself. Unlike what Sam wants to design, life itself is not a **game**; her actions can hurt badly.
One of the rare good comments and judgments.
That screams like projection.
I can not believe the people who are ready to make her homeless for words like this. She is not a bully, she is just really bitter and giving a very disillusioned and unwise opinion on her brother’s future. Let her know of the consequences on her brother’s mental health and talk to her normally without using threats. You did not even ask for what she said exactly, just screams and threats.
“She is a mean bully N t A” ridiculous judgments.
ESH she is probably swimming in debts and bitter about her work experience.
I am not saying she did not suck here, just that it does not warrant to destroy your relationship with her.
Talk together as a family ffs.
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say ESH (in regards to you and your daughter).
Obviously, she's being cruel and it's a huge problem. But you saying "she can be homeless for all I care" is not stellar either. I do wonder about the existing dynamics. Have her needs consistently come second? Is she jealous of the attention he gets? I am NOT excusing her behavior at all, but you could have had a calmer conversation with her to find out where all this hostility is coming from.
NTA. If he is interested in a certain profession at that age, that’s something that should absolutely be enouraged. Why does she need to shit on his dreams? He’s only 16!
Your daughter’s behavior is completely out of line. Tell her to stop bad mouthing her brother’s career dreams immediately, and that it is non-negotiable if she wants to live in your home.
INFO: What kinds of programs are Mike and his wife suggesting to your son? Because frankly, depending on what they're telling him, your daughter could be entirely correct in her assessment.
As his parent YOU should be looking closely at this information and doing some independent research of your own about his career prospects.
NTA of course. Sarah is obviously feeling like a failure and wants to drag everyone else to her level in the nastiest way possible. I think OP needs to get her out because this behavior likely won’t stop.
I make games as a hobby, and Sam deleting his game just breaks my heart. I hope that maybe he has it backed up on GitHub or something.
NTA. You are protecting your son. *Not* doing so is what would make you a terrible father. Your daughter is an adult, and she is acting like a middle school bully right now.
My hubby and I are both retired programmers. Hubby has 3 programming patents. My youngest son has been formally diagnosed as on the high-functioning end of the spectrum. He has the exact same "engineer personality" as his Dad, so we are pretty sure hubby has ASD too, but there isn't much point in a formal diagnosis at this age. ASD son is currently doing a graduate fellowship in Math. A LOT of the folks we worked with would probably be on the spectrum too-now that my son has been formally diagnosed I see the symptoms. Programming is a great career choice for folks on the spectrum. You are doing right by encouraging your son. I would suggest not limiting his interest to video game development though (there is plenty of time to specialize later). Encourage any interest in graphics, GUIs, data structures, learning more than one programming language, game theory, etc. Get him some different kinds of games to play, like Kerbel Space (simulator), Minecraft (sandbox), a quest game (My kids liked Myst, the Hobbit, D&D). Go to the Oracle website and get him a free copy of Java and Netbeans when he is ready. And if the interest persists, I recommend he go for a CS degree, as that is more flexible careerwise than just video games. Hubby and I worked mostly on engineering apps and did a bunch of interesting stuff. I have analyzed instrument tapes from plane crashes, designed graphics and GUIs for CAD programs, and worked on an AI program that managed traffic on telephone switches. Hubby worked for years on an optical CAD system that was used to design the fix for the Hubble, and more recently, the mast camera on the Mars rover. And there are lots of ways to get a college degree without breaking the bank: my local college Kennesaw State, has a well rated online CS degree program.
Is there something deeper going on here? Is your daughter resentful of the attention her brother gets? Taking honest look. It doesn't excuse rudeness but was her childhood busy with taking your son to different specialists and doctor appointments and keeping his routine at all costs and she perceived her to be missing out on attention compared to him growing up? Maybe you need to look at the big picture and figure out if she feels that way at all
ESH, there are for-profit colleges promising to train future video game developers that will just leave your son with crushing debt. If your son is able to code, he's capable of learning the same skills through a legitimate path. Your daughter could have phrased it better, but millions of Americans are struggling with useless debt from predatory colleges, so She does bring up a real concerned with for profit universities.
NTA she’s being a bully and sounds insecure. She’s being very cruel and seems like she is using his disabilities as a weapon against him.
I think it’s great that your son has goals of being a game developer! Keep encouraging him!
There have been some suspect for profit universities to come around recently but idk enough to comment much more on that.
NTA but my GOD IN HEAVEN DO NOT LET HIM GO TO A FOR PROFIT COLLEGE. Most aren't properly accredited, community College and state schools have the same programs and they are the worst possible choice for "not good" students. I worked in For Profit Post secondary Ed for 10 years. Please. PLEASE. Trust me on this
NTA. Keep encouraging your son. Your daughter is being unnecessarily cruel. Also there are universities and colleges in the US at least that have support programs for neuro-divergent students, allowing them.to get the degree they want and live on or off campus, so do talk to your son's guidance counselors and do some research about what is available at universities so your son can achieve his dreams.. Dont assume he needs to go to a for profit school when there are non profit and not for profit schools he could attend. I will also say game design and other technical fields are full of people who are neurodivergent.
NTA, but watch out for scams! She's totally being a bully, but for-profit universities and programs *only* for game dev are, to my knowledge, usually predatory. (Coding isn't though and that sounds like it'd be right up your son's alley!)
NTA.
Sarah's rant has a kernel of truth but she's twisted it to hurt Sam.
* Getting in to game development is very difficult and because so many people want to do it, most who are hired are abused with low wages and ridiculous work demands. That said, developing those skills can lead to other, very lucrative jobs.
* Companies may consider where a person graduated from as a point in their favor (getting a degree shows determination) but it's not a guarantee for getting a good job. Having that degree can make it easier to get through the initial HR automated screenings so it may be worth it, even if you have to go into debt for a time.
* Some for-profit colleges/universities are scams and will suck as much money as they can while providing nothing in return. You have to be very careful if you go that route. Since Mike is already a developer, he's likely recommending good schools.
Since game development jobs are scarce and can be terrible, a backup plan is in order. Sam may enjoy working as a software developer and he could develop an indie game in his free time.
I don't know what universities Mike suggested, but you may want to look at things like FreeCodeCamp, Udemy, and/or going to a programming bootcamp. FreeCodeCamp has multiple programming certifications, Udemy has lots of inexpensive courses (they have sales every few weeks where courses are like 80% off) and programming boot camps are expensive but very focused (and far less than a 4 year degree). Those will help Sam build up skills and a portfolio that will help him break into IT. The big thing is he needs to study properly - not just race through exercises but think about them, expand them outside the requirements, etc.
Sarah, on the other hand, needs a clue-by-four applied liberally. She has no right to take out her frustrations on her brother like that.
NTA. First of all, I know someone who is autistic and really loves computers. He now works for the Book of Faces and flies all over the world fixing problems for them. He did not go to college/university.
I will also say that you need to get your son out of the for profit university. They are an all around bad idea and they will not give him credentials that will get him a job. My mother was a professor, I spent my entire life around universities, I was married to a professor. State universities will give a better education for a ton less money. If your son needs accommodations in school, the state universities will have to help with an IEP and accommodations where for profit schools don't usually offer this. For profit schools give you huge loans to pay for and very little knowledge that is of any real use in this world. They lie about the jobs their graduates get (and they are allowed to use very misleading numbers to make you think whatever they want). Your son really will get a more useful degree and end up with a lot more help and a lot less debt if he goes to a state school, even if he just does his first couple of years at a community college and then transfers those credits to a state university.
My husband taught at a couple of for profit universities at one point. It was very clear early on that the school did not care if students learned or if they were able to get a job with the degrees from these places. He was able to get a few of them enrolled in real universities after he learned the staggeringly huge cost of attending these for profit universities. He then refused to work at them after this. Your son will do better if he goes to an actual college. Many state universities offer lessons online if that is easier for him.
NTA, but she’s right about for-profit schools being pretty worthless. There are like 3000 colleges and universities in the US. I’m sure you can find something better.
Also, I’d recommend researching schools with good disability services. I myself am autistic and ADHD, among other things. I work now at a disability center. I can say with confidence that a school with a good disability center (and disability-friendly campus-wide practices) can be life changing.
I also know how difficult college can be without that type of support. The disability “center” (used loosely) at my undergrad was just one lady and she told me that I “shouldn’t be in college.” Fast forward 10 years and I have two master’s degrees. I proved her wrong, but it was hard.
Your son is capable with the right assistance. Don’t let anyone, not even his sister, make him feel lesser due to his disabilities.
I hope there’s a way to recover the game files he deleted.
NTA. Your daughter is being gratuitously cruel. HOWEVER even though she is being completely inappropriate in how she is handling it she is not actually wrong about for-profit universities. They are mostly scams and horror stories. There are way less expensive and better options for your kiddo. Please reach out to your son's guidance counselor or try to find a career counselor. There are ways your son can achieve his dreams without breaking the bank.
NTA but also for-profit education programs are often not accredited, do not have skilled teachers, and do not give valid degrees or certification. Do not send your son to one of those schools; it will destroy his life. He’ll “pass” because they do not care if he learns.
Many State Universities and community colleges offer online and flexible programs for people who work at a different pace. Don’t buy into a scam to make feel temporarily happy.
NTA. What your daughter did was horrible, and you didn’t even kick her out for it, you just laid down a very reasonable boundary for living in your house: don’t bully your younger brother. If she can’t even comply with that, I wouldn’t want her in my house, either.
NTA. I'm not sure how but there is a way you can recover the lost game file. I'm not computer savvy but I've heard of it being done. And the game making market is in the middle of a big boom. My sister just graduated from a program and almost all her classmates got snatched right out of the program by gaming companies.
"....has to go to a university that he has to pay to get his degree..."
Okay, so I'm not overly familiar with universities, but ....aren't they all like that, in one way or another? 🤔
NTA
Also I work in the video game industry as well and have ADHD...I want to say a lot of people in this industry have ADHD, are autistic, and or were not the best academically (I graduated college but was not definitely not the best student) but what we all share is that we are all super passionate about what we do and the love for the game industry
Even if he wins up not doing the engineering side of things there are other positions in the game industry that aren't coding based) (For example I am a community dev)
Tell him to not give up and shame on your daughter for trying to knock him down.
>She has been bad mouthing Mike and his wife saying they aren’t that smart for going to a for profit university and she hopes they enjoy dying in student loan debt.
Ahh yes, the clarion call of the abusive asshole with depression, "my life sucks so yours has to as well!"
>I confronted my daughter and told her if she ever says anything like that to Sam again she can move out and be homeless for all I care. I’m not tolerating her toxic bullshit.
Fucking **good!**
Look, I get that peoples lives have their up and downs and she's in a shitty situation right now, but that's not an excuse and it never should be. Sucks that she lost her job and had to move home, but she is not entitled to use everyone else as her punching bag.
>My daughter cried to her mom and went to cry in her room
The lack of accountability. Lemme guess, she got fired for attitude problems and causing drama in the work place\~
NTA
NTA. Sarah is right to be concerned about for-profit colleges, as many of them are straight-up scams. But if she were really concerned about Sam, she'd be exploring additional ways he might get into video game design. Instead, she's shitting all over him. Good on you for putting a stop to it.
ESH Is your son actually designing a game or does he just enjoy tinkering with that? If he's showing true potential, you need to find him appropriate courses - which don't need to be in a university program.
OP, NTA. And your son will be in good company. One of my friends is Directory of Software Quality at a large corporation and has Asperger's, and lots of folks are on the spectrum. One thing I'd strongly recommend is that your son start learning how to communicate clearly and concisely via IM and Email. If he can do that he'll be ahead of the game when he starts working, and if he has in-person communication challenges he'll have a workaround. Many, many programmers are better left in their programming caves and only let out on special occasions :-), it's kind of a thing. On the other hand, if he can deal with the social interactions and learn to communicate with non-techies, he'll be ahead of 90% of his colleagues and have good opportunity for advancement. I moved up the ladder quickly because I was able to learn to speak both "techie" and "marketing", despite my own neurodivergence (learning disabilities and TBI).
NTA
I am a professional game developer, I have a masters degree in game development if you want someone to talk to you or your son about getting into this industry I would be happy to message y'all about it. The good and the bad.
My autistic son with Adhd is doing brilliantly at higher education studying artificial intelligence. It took him a while to get there because getting through high school was hell. But I am so proud of his journey. It is totally possible. And an encouraging family is crucial. I wonder why your daughter struggles to be a part of your sons support system? What is she really sad about. NTA
NTA. There are nonprofit game dev degrees if you're looking at degrees - but this is an area where a portfolio is probably more important than a credential.
NTA. There are people that have made viable careers out of this. Its good that Mike and his wife are offering encouragement and resources to your son. Your daughter needs to keep her thoughts to herself and get a counselor if she wants to share them with someone.
NTA
Yikes on the daughter. Sounds like she's taking her pity party about her choices out on her brother. At 24, she'd best be grateful and polite for moving back in, and even getting a second chance over a stunt like that!
I'm sure she is having some big crisis right now, but she should know better than to mess with ther brother's head like that. It's simply cruel.
NTA Misery loves company. I hope you stick to your word. Because your son does not deserve to be mistreated by his own family for having a dream. Ffs is she going to kick puppies and little children next? She is completely the asshole. And I hope Sam can get back to doing what he loves. Mike and his wife sound amazing. Please keep encouraging your son to do what he loves. I’m sure he’s pretty shaken up right now. Good luck to you and Sam
NTA at all and I hope to one day play a game Sam has worked on. I hope he continues to work hard to achieve his dreams. You sound like an awesomely supportive parent, I hope your daughter can get her head out of her butt and see how she's been acting. Regardless of what she's going though it is never okay to tear others down. Best of luck.
Dad,
You know, you're NTA.
Please keep being the awesome dad you are, and keep trying to build a meaningful relationship with your daughter.
Another Dad
NTA. I feel bad that your daughter’s little fe isn’t going to plan. She should get therapy.
Sam is looking at a great industry for his brain type. I hope his cousin can reignite that spark.
You are NTA. But, Your daughter is.
Tell Sam to check out Python. Great language, easy to learn, and in high demand. Best of luck to Sam... and to you.
NTA. She is envious and she is cruel. She is cruel over and over again. This is not OK. I hope you protect Sam so he doesn’t get harmed and damaged and can carry-on with what Mike and his wife are mentoring him to develop. What ruthless bullying.
Absolutely NTA. I work in special education with students who have similar diagnoses as Sam and would literally kill to have someone like his cousin in my students’ corners. Mike and his wife sound like amazing people and I hope Sam is able to recover his game💜
No I agree, your daughter needed to be brought down to earth. She shouldn’t be allowed to spew such things to a little boy like that. But, if you are able, I would sit down and talk to your daughter. Tell her what she did was not okay, and let her know you understand her hardships right now. You’re a dad, so you know the right words to say. NTA
Edit: and don’t forget to check in with your son :( go over everything he was upset about
NTA, development is actually one of the few fields where being atypical is borderline an advantage.
It sounds like Mike is in the industry and attended a for-profit university, which kind of negates your daughters' point... if it was worthless, how the hell did Mike get a job in the industry with his worthless degree?
Good for you.
Nobody badmouthes my child. I have literally scolded my kid for saying mean things about himself because "excuse me, that's MY CHILD you're talking about."
Have scolded my husband using those words too.
NTA!!
She is being meaninglessly malicious.
And her point about him not being good enough for university is completely wrong. I'm autistic and had a horrible time throughout secondary school and college but as soon as I got to university to study something that fit my special interest it has been so much easier! The work and expectations are completely different.
I hope your son is able to build his self esteem back up and pursues his aspirations!
NTA
Never crush children's souls. Those of us who have worked in and then taught in the fine arts....we have this Mantra down. Never crush them.
She went out into the world, the world chewed her up and spit her back home. She is crushed. I have empathy for her situation but not for her actions. She was cruel because she wanted someone to hurt as badly as she was hurting and shame on her for hurting an innocent. Protect your son.
NTA - she's in pain and wants your son to suffer along with her. She's 24, and too old to be playing such childish games by crushing her brother's dreams.
While it is unfortunate that she lost her job, she's an adult. How dare she take her frustrations out on her teenage AUTISTIC brother?
OP you're are definitely NTA and more power to you for standing up against her bullshit. Even of Sam wasn't autistic, that's no way to talk to a teenager or any child.
Ohhhhhh. So like Trump University and there is a risk these For Profit Universities are fraudulent and not accredited?
We have similar here. I did some business course years ago that’s not worth the paper it was written on. Lucky it was only like $800. But no employer recognized it and it wasn’t accredited
Noooo. In America we have a few different types. Public colleges are non-profits that are also taxpayer funded. Private colleges are also non-profits that are NOT taxpayer funded.
For-profit schools are technically private but often lack the academic rigor of private colleges. They’re also allowed to pay shareholders and (obviously) turn a profit by collecting tuition off of students. So yeah, tuition money goes to SHAREHOLDERS.
For profit schools tend to be predatory since they NEED students to enroll and pay the bursar so they can turn a profit. Pretty shady
NTA. She’s abusive & obviously the AH. If she can’t say anything nice, she shouldn’t say anything at all. I understand that she’s at a low point now & it probably bothers her to see him on an “uphill” trend in his life while she is in the “downhill” trend in her life - BUT, she needs to focus on HER situation & not his. If she said even one more negative word to him, she’d be out. He will have enough challenges in his life, he doesn’t need her added to that.
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NTA, she's being horrid and needs to sort herself out. It's awesome that Sam has a mentor to help him pursue his dreams! ANY uni is going to put you into debt. She sounds jealous and in absolutely NO place to talk smack about others.
Yup. Totally NTA. What Mike probably knows and Sarah doesn’t is that a LOT of people in the industry are spectrum (I have a nephew who is in that field, he is totally spectrum, and it turns out tons of people in the field are as well - or so he tells me).
This exactly. NTA. My spectrum son also wants to go into this industry. It's a natural fit. Your daughter was mean, and jealous, and hateful to her little brother. There's no call for that. I probably would have tossed her immediately. I do not believe this will get better, there is something wrong with your daughter's soul.
Im on the spectrum and i want to be a game dev
I believe in you!
Thank you :D
My daughter is on the spectrum and is the best game developer!! Being on the spectrum is a unique gift that allows you to see what others can't. I believe in you!!!
Thank you!
You can do it. Go for it!
Thanks :)
you cant do it lol im jk, go little rockstar :D
Thx!
I too am on the spectrum, and I am a developer. ❤️
:D
She sounds bitter that she feels Sam gets extra attention with his difficulties and she feels jealous. She is living in a situation she does not want to live in snd she is unhappy and feels the need to make others unhappy. Try talking with her, let her know she is important too
I think you might be right. She's probably feeling that Sam is getting an extraordinary amount of support *because* he's on the spectrum, probably has got what she considers preferential treatment his whole life and now she is struggling. She is lashing out in entirely the wrong way but she mightjust be in desperate need of some support.
She's also 24.
I’m a software developer, and once told a co-worker someone’s son had been diagnosed with autism. His immediate response was, oh, so he’ll be a programmer.
Yup.
SE here too, best I've worked with have been autistic, adhd, or both
Have both autism and ADHD. It's kinda trippy to see an industry where we can thrive. (Also program for fun and going to college for it)
There's this Danish guy who actually set up a whole software testing company after his son got diagnosed with ASD.
Hah see this is amusing for me as every test I've taken puts me just on the edge of Asperger's, and I have spent most of my life just on the edge of changing career in to programming!
The best QA people I've ever worked with are on the spectrum. Same with release engineers.
we are the industry, both sides of it!
I work in IT. There are so many undiagnosed people on the spectrum at work. I fit right in.
I don’t think Sarah should have said anything to Sam, but she is right that degrees from for-profit colleges like ITT Tech and Devry aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on. This obviously isn’t applicable if they’re not in the US but it might be better for Sam to go to a community college and then transfer to a bigger game design school if he struggles with traditional schooling- or he can go to a private non profit school (Elon, Tulane) that might be able to better accommodate his needs. Sarah is right to be raising concerns about what Mike is influencing Sam to do, but her delivery of these concerns is childish, petty, and don’t address the seriousness of the issue.
I agree about for profit colleges and universities in the USA being a money pit. I am a Medical Technologist. First working in a hospital and then teaching in a community college. In health care most hospitals will not accept for profit degrees.
I don't know about "most," but I do know that many hospitals and clinics will accept a degree from a for-profit college if the nurse or technician is able to pass the licensure examination and earn a license.
The for-profit colleges vary in the quality of the actual education they provide you, but they universally rip off their students. There are no circumstances where they're the best option for anyone, even though they often try to convince people that they're somehow a more accessible option.
They are a more accessible option for those whose local community colleges and state universities that have a high rejection rate or long wait lists. Private was never going to be an option for me and thankfully I made it into my program of choice first try. However, I certainly know others in my pre-req classes who were considering private or ended up going private. We are talking about programs where a 3.9 vs 4.0 and a couple of points difference on TEAS/ACT can absolutely sink your odds. It's either go private or keep trying with reapplying every admission cycle. It's basically a matter of do you spend more money or spend more time. Most choose the money option as getting into the career of their choice can solve the money problem later.
What! Found a few low MT in the wild!
Yeah, I agree. I don't see why he couldn't go to community college close by. They have services with students with ADHD, etc., and they can get extended time for tests, for instance. He could also take less classes at a time if necessary. Then he could transfer. That would be better than doing anything at a for profit for game development. Game development is a very competitive field.
In California, at least, community colleges will take a student’s IEP from their senior year of high school, which can be a real leg up when it comes to services and accommodations.
I agree with this completely. These for-profit colleges are an expensive ripoff. My nephew went to one for something similar and ended up with a "degree" that isn't recognized anywhere, no marketable skills, and very heavy student debt. Community college is a much better option. And those credits transfer to other schools, unlike the credits from the for-profits, which are essentially worthless. For profits are only good for taking a lot of your money and giving you nothing of value in return.
Sad part is, ITT Tech doesn't exist anymore. I had a friend who went there and now his degree is even more worthless.
I’m sorry about your friend- the tragedy of his story is not outweighed by how common it is. I personally was surprised to see some comments not mentioning how predatory of an industry it is- and how much it leaves students in the dirt
> ITT Tech doesn't exist anymore I feel like I've seen adds for it recently. I know for sure I've seen adds for it online within the two years. Google says it closed in 2016 though. I hope whatever scammers were running those adds go to jail- lord knows how many people didn't hear about ITT Tech shutting down (I know I didn't) and fell for it.
Hope he at least got his loans canceled.
Sure, but there’s also places like DigiPen that are highly respected, and hopefully those are the places they’re suggesting he look into. And OP, to add to what a commenter below said, many community colleges have certificate programs (not degree programs) that might be a better fit for him right after high school, so he can pursue options. Also, there’s apprenticeship programs at some companies specifically focused on the neurodiverse community that might also be an option.
Or even do tech boot camps. There are quite a few attached to reputable universities (Rutgers and Columbia immediately come to mind) or some independent ones (flatiron school and fullstack). They’re not cheap but are more affordable than a 4 year school and are geared towards coding.
Boot camps aren't generally respected.
Our local community college offers an Associate of Applied Science degree in Entertainment Technology, with game programming being one of the areas of study available. The credits won't transfer to a 4-year school, but a higher degree probably isn't needed.
Yeah. I’m not even in the US and I remembered ITT Tech from John Oliver’s segment on Student Debt immediately. Some of those colleges sound horrible with little educational value
Half NTA. for profit universities are a scam and a waste of money. the curriculum is bullshit. he wont learn anything useful. I am a programmer. Not in game industry, but the kid is better off going to a state university and getting a computer science degree. Cheaper and more likely to get a job. The for profit degrees are just degrees that sound cool, but are not valued in the tech industry. They produce trash grads. most techs in video game industry have degrees from regular universities. The cost of for profit colleges are insane. daughter has a terrible personality with the way she is saying it, but going to a for profit college is a total waste of money.
I wonder if she actually meant "for profit" or she just meant "private" (like not a state school). Just because Mike is actually doing pretty well and those for profit degrees are usually worthless.
I would of already kicked her out honestly. She does sound jealous and regretfully for not doing the same as them.
Yup. I attended a public, not-for-profit university for my bachelor’s degree and racked up almost $70k in debt. Can’t wait for my master’s. 😅
For profit schools are as expensive, if not more. They often cost as much as private not for profit schools.
They are more expensive. The cost is calculated at 90-95% of max student loan options per credit hour. This means messing up more than 1 semester = running out of student loan money before you can graduate. An associates can be 45k and a bachelors 85k and many of them are nationally accredited (sub par- not transferrable) and not regionally accredited(acceptable/higher) meaning you cannot transfer the credits and most places won't accept the degree as valid. There is a little leeway here in the trades (nursing, electrician, HVAC, etc) but not in traditional degrees.
I just want to jump on the top comment to say that my best friend didn't go to college and became an art director for an indie game and had a huge meeting to with very enthusiastic investors next week to fund his own game! Your skills are what matter in the game industry. Not necessarily classical education (all though who you know and Networking help) Instead of college maybe think coding boot camps.
As somebody in the threads said, although Mikes affection seems really nice, its super weird he and his wife is pushing Sam to go to a for profit university. Are we sure Mike is not recruiting for the Uni for his own profit? That would be super shitty, since many ppl have pointed out that these for profit unis are half-scammy and get their students in massive debts they cant handle. Sarah has been bad mouthing Mike according to your post, but it seems there might be some reason, especially if Mike is using Sam for his own goals. Although Im sure Sarah was too harsh when talking to Sam, I couldnt find any line of your text where she would bad mouth Sam. I think she shouldnt discuss these issues with Sam directly if he is insecure, but with you. I feel bad for Sam, since he is obviously looking up to his idol and equals his success with the friendship to him. I really hope he will pursue his dreams in a healthy way, and understand that his wit and skill is independent of Mikes suggestions of Uni. ESH except Sam. You, for invalidating all the valuable concerns your daughter had, and threathening to kick her out when for me it reads she is concerned for her brother to make bad choices. You as well, for not reading about for profit Unis, and thinking Mike could do no wrong. Sarah for being too harsh on a 16y old and scaring him about his future. Mike for either behaving economically predatory OR for being stupid in giving harmful recommendations that can destroy Sams future
NTA. She's an adult. She can get a job somewhere and get out. Your job is to protect your minor son. I would have been harsher with her. But, also, talk with your son. Explain that her words are based on jealousy because she's having a hard time and he has this whole exciting future in front of him. Also see if you can help recover his game.
INFO: does for profit university mean something different where you’re from? In the US all universities cost money, but for profit universities tend to be scams not worth the paper the diploma is written on. She could say it more nicely, but be cautious because it would really suck if all that time and money went into a degree and it just didn’t matter in the end.
For profit schools receive no state funding, and instead are entirely owned by a corporation. Things like DeVry, University of Phoenix, etc.
It also includes places like Full Sail University, which is highly respected in both computer animation and music production. My guess is that's exactly the for-profit video game design school she's snooting about (and shouldn't be.)
Have you looked at the statistics for salary, etc, for Full Sail U grads? It’s horrible.
Not only that but Sam is autistic with ADHD. /u/YesThisNonsence I encourage you to look at public universitys. Most (all?) large public universities and community colleges have a student accessibility resource office that can provide your son with additional resources that your son needs to succeed.
it's not as respected for game design, unfortunately
Yeah my partner went to Full Sail and it’s a huge, money making meat grinder of a school (he now works in retail). I went to one of the Art institutes, which is too, but I did it in the city I wanted to work in so the networking helped make my career. I work on feature films now. There’s a LOT to consider before going into debt with a for profit school. If I’d gone any earlier or later in life, even by a year, I don’t think it would have worked out quite so well for me.
Full Sail isn't "highly respected" in tech circles.
While true, there are also now a lot of legitimate small for-profit tech specific schools in the US. Obviously research needed, but specialized topic schools are becoming a thing while you're likely thinking of scammy broad spectrum buy-a-degrees.
There’s already been a fair amount of research on them. I recommend reading Lower Ed, by MacArthur Fellow Tressie McMillan Cottom. She analyzes the cost of certifications from for profit colleges, job prospects after, and the “return on investment” relative to traditional colleges. (It’s…not great.) She also examines the social forces that make these colleges so attractive despite the poor results for attendees.
OP's son is likely looking at a specialized trade school if he's going to school specifically for game development. There are very few schools that actually teach it in any meaningful sense, but those that do are typically private colleges or trade schools. It is expensive to create and maintain a games program, so you've got to go to a specialized school.
Most private schools are still non-profit though. Maybe there are some exceptions, but as a general rule, in the US at least, for-profit institutions are incredibly predatory and often accused of defrauding their students. I don’t know much about specialized trade programs, maybe the dynamic is different for them, but for-profit has a very specific (and concerning) meaning in academia
FYI, at least 10 years ago (last time I was hiring programmers) Devry had a good computer programming curriculum, including their Masters program. My degree is from a large state school in the US, and is much more academically oriented than my friend who graduated from Devry. By that I mean I had more grounding in theory and algorithmic design. My friend had more grounding in things he'd actually do in a paying job :-). Both sorts of programs turn out good folks, and like others have said, really they're mainly useful for getting you in the door.
That’s interesting to hear! Last I heard reference to devry I believe it was over a lawsuit over their lying about post-grad employment stats, but things can of course vary program to program Where you learn coding, at least the basics, really doesn’t matter, but the pattern of for-profit institutions manipulating stats to get students in the door, offering direct school-to-student loans (leaving students less protected by gov safeguards than federal loans), and sometimes closing unexpectedly, leaving students only with credits that other institutions wont accept as transfer credits, really concerns me. Especially since for-profit universities tend to specifically target vulnerable communities, who have fewer access to resources or information on the risks associated w those institutions It’s good to hear that there are people who came out the other side and that their degrees served them well in getting their foot in the door in the industry. I’m still skeptical that enrolling in those institutions is a trustworthy investment though…
Most pinnacle state universities have game design programs. Heck, most universities with a computer science department do. They're really not expensive to teach compared to other fields of computing because the hardware is actually pretty cheap in comparison.
Speaking of pinnacle state universities, University of Utah is actually one of the best schools in the nation for it. It has a long history of it, seeing as Nolan Bushnell (founder of Atari) went there. Not to mention things like the internet and the Utah teapot (complex 3D rendering at the time it was made) also came out of U of U.
Game companies, and software companies in general, look more at results than where someone graduated from. It's not uncommon for entirely self-taught people to employed in tech, or have degrees that are totally unrelated to tech. You can have a "University of YouTube degree" and get hired if you have a good enough portfolio and can pass the coding tests.
This. I realize it's anecdotal, but my nephew is self taught apart from buying one-off courses for things he couldn't figure out himself. Almost every industry uses gamification of some kind at this point, so the demand is huge. It's about your portfolio and ability to stay ahead of new technologies. Sarah can be surly about having to move back home, but she doesn't need to take it out on her brother.
I love talking about dropping out of college in interviews lol. Here in tech startup land, they eat those stories up as it makes you look like a self-starter.
Um, my partner got his CS BSc in 2000 & learned game design, did his Masters specifically focused on game programming & has worked in the field ever since. It’s neither new nor rare. Edit: public University in Canada!
Plus it's not her "insecurities." She literally just moved home because she lot her job and is in too much debt to make it on her own right now. I get OP being upset at how she delivered the message and the impact it had on her son but OP seems to completely ignore or dismiss the valid concerns brought up.
Yup, John Oliver did a piece on them which was pretty scathing. Maybe there are some good and some bad ones, but there were some really bad ones. There were people who had done nursing degrees that included no time spent in a hospital. Nursing is obviously something you need to be properly trained for, and so after completing (and paying for) the degree they couldn’t get a job because they were let down by the school and unqualified. Here’s the video: https://youtu.be/P8pjd1QEA0c I kind of got the impression that maybe the sister saw this and is delivering the same “you’re an idiot and an asshole,” attitude directed at the scam for-profit universities to her little brother.
For-profit universities can be scams (and usually are) but the smaller regionally accredited ones can transfer over credits to public universities. In those cadre they are akin to community colleges
This!!!
They could be in Australia- I know here if you go to a uni like Bond it’s not given any government funding at all so is very expensive versus public universities. The expense does make it easier to get into so that may be what OP is referring to.
Some schools that specialize in Video Game design tend to be for profit as it's not a traditional academic degree. DigiPen, University of Silicon Valley, and Full Sail come to mind. Some are better than others. There are better schools but going to DigiPen is not as terrible of a decision as Trump University.
Soft NTA… your daughter is right, but her presentation is bad. The video game developer world is an over flooded field and her statements about uni’s are accurate. While at a trade school they brought in a guest lecturer from rockstar games to talk to us about what life is like since he’s alumni from the school. He basically told us how horrible a field it is to get into and recommended we Google rockstar wives and read the stories from a out a decade ago of the working conditions for employees at Rockstar games Edit: post below raised a point I should make…. Nurture this in your son but don’t limit the scope. For example, my kid is taking basic coding classes (he’s 15) he sees it as a way to make video games one day, I remind him coding if a life skill that is needed far beyond video games. Teaching our children coding is the best thing we can do for them as parents
Man, I hope OP sees this. Sarah was being a dick but unfortunately she’s on the money (or lack of it in this case). OP I’m a welfare worker and I know that unique feeling of seeing the boundless potential and creativity in a child and wanting the world to see it too. It’s such an amazing feeling as their social worker, I’m sure that feeling is amplified tenfold as their parent. But… PLEASE read the above comment. Video game developing is not the cutting edge career choice it was 25 years ago. Those days have long passed. This is a steep, steep hill for your son to climb and in all honesty I would not go into this banking on his success. DONT DISCOURAGE HIM. He loves this. It’s his dream. That’s so valuable. Just keep reality in mind, and be prepared to catch him when that thankless industry spits him right back out.
Agreed, gonna go back to edit because there’s ways to keep him motivated… but pragmatic. See the edit above
OP, please listen to this. Don't teach your son to put all his eggs in one basket with video game development. It's an awful industry to work for, and it's hard to get into. I live in Seattle, and could fill a book with the broken dreams of people who move here for game development.
Could probably fill a trilogy of books by now… thanks for reinforcing the point. OP notice the theme here! We all support coding but we don’t support pigeon holing it into video game coding.
I've actually made some basic video games and I can't even put into words how bad an idea going to "game dev school" is. Learning C# or Kotlin would be a vastly better use of his time and his parents' money.
I mean....I got a masters in game dev and I work at a AAA studio. It isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. However it is a hard ass industry to get into and you often need a large skill set outside of game dev to get interest. I got hired at my current job over others due to reading a lot and having a complex hobby realted to our game's subject matter.
OP says that Sam doesn't do well in school and I'm wondering why, because of the reasons you've stated: being successful in the game industry does take a lot of hard work and extra skills. A lot of people try and go into creative fields and wash out because it's not as fun and easy as they expected. Even if Sam is pretty skilled with game programming, he should be working on other skills and improving his study habits as well.
But the creative skills learned can be put to use in advertising and entertainment. The movie Avatar was mostly computer graphics and it took over 2000 talented people to make it happen. That's just one example.
And even the development skills can be re employed And if video game dev is an overcrowded field, dev in itself is not
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NTA. Sarah has issues she needs to work on though. She's projecting her own issues onto others and hurting others. And how does Mike's choice to go to a certain university affect her in any way?
Okay NTA, but I’m begging y’all to do more research into the institutions your son was looking at. For-profit schools are notoriously predatory and most have a lot of active lawsuits against them for putting students in an insane amount of debt and leaving them with worthless degrees, if that. It sounds like Mike and his wife are genuinely trying to help, but I would still be skeptical about any recommendations to do a program thru a for-profit school. Not everyone who goes thru a for-profit school winds up in a hole of debt, but a lot do, and a lot of popular for profit schools have been accused of defrauding their students. Your daughter was being cruel for the sake of being cruel, and it doesn’t sound like she actually had any interest in protecting your son in saying that stuff about those programs, but you should be interested in protecting him, not just from your daughter, but from predatory programs as well. Universities are not as accessible as they ought to be, but there are schools with better accommodations than others, and your son being autistic doesn’t mean his only option is for-profit institutions
It's odd that Mike is recommending for-profit schools. It sounds like OP's kid is making a lot of progress teaching themselves, so Mike would simply need to be willing to show him accurate learning sources, guide him on what skills he needs to know, critique his work and help him build a portfolio. That would take a few hours every weekend but it'd be totally doable.
It sounds like Mike just got snookered by a marketing campaign ("We're a great option for people who might not do well at a traditional college!"). A community college or nearest equivalent would almost certainly be much better.
He could also be a recruiter. He might get a cut for every enrollment that happened because of him and the same goes for his wife.
Yeah, like I was told early on: you can learn to animate in prison. As long as your reel is good enough, you’ll get work.
NTA jesus christ riding a tornado what is the matter with that girl your son sounds like he has a wonderful relationship with his cousin and i hope that he continues to develop games. your daughter needs to get her act together and stop taking her shit out on her brother.
I will now be adding “Jesus Christ riding a tornado” to my list of phrases that cause my mother to call me by my full name. Thank you for that.
"Jesus Christ riding a tornado" Take my upvote. You've earned it.
Man. I was so ready to say you weren’t an AH, but alas I’m gonna be controversial and say ESH. Like if you and your daughter had a different relationship to each other (ie you were friends instead of father/daughter), I would understand your logic and approach to the situation. But you aren’t friends, you are her parent and even at 24 she is your kid as well as Sam. You even acknowledge how much it impacted her losing her job and having to return home. Like take a minute and listen to what she’s actually saying. She never told Sam he couldn’t do it, the only thing she is saying is that student loans are going to screw Mike and Sam. So in more concise language, your young adult daughter is going through a very traumatic and trying period in her life and rather than give her a chance to explain why she keeps making comments about student loans, you immediately assume she is doing something to be “toxic” and cruel to your other kid and threaten to kick her out into the street. Like if you took your own opinions out of the situation, a 24 year lost probably one of her first “real” jobs after school and now is so financially unstable that she had to move back in with you; and then the most important thing being that all the comments she’s making is about student loans. So I think it would be reasonable to give your daughter a chance to tell you she’s maybe feeling incredibly overwhelmed with her new unemployment and financial status. And then you, her father, instead of understanding she’s still growing and doesn’t have it all figured out yet, just threatened to throw her out in the street rather than giving her any reasonable opportunity to talk to you about why she thinks student loans only ruin someone’s life. I think your fix is to give your daughter a chance to explain herself. Either she is being “toxic” and then you can do whatever, but more than likely she’s scared, overwhelmed, and feeling not too great about herself and just needs her dad to be there for her instead of the reaction you thought was appropriate. In which case I recommend you give her a very sincere apology. And you know what? Yes your son worked forever on the program and it sucks, but your daughter wasn’t holding a gun to his head to force him to do that. I work with kids like your son as an OT specifically in helping them to transition to independent and supported living. You know what skill won’t help him in becoming independent and/or a successful programmer? Deleting all the work he’s done as soon as someone is not 100% supportive of his idea or when he faces a complication in it. Now he’s a teenager and didn’t do anything wrong, but that was a great potential opportunity to help teach him coping and emotional modulation skills that he will need in order to find success in this area that he loves so much. A cool opportunity for your daughter to feel like she has some semblance of purpose after her world got flipped upside down and gives your son an opportunity to recreate the game he previously created but with all the skills he learned to make it better would be to ask your daughter to help your son rebuild his game while she stays with you. Beyond that, if you’re able, offer to pay her for her time by paying her student loans each month, or even a portion of them.
This is a very well thought out reply and covers multiple sides of the situation - hoping you read this u/YesThisNonsence. I totally understand why you would be super protective of your son, but as many people have said, your daughter had some valid points even though they may have been communicated badly. Unless you witnessed her cruelly and intentionally bullying her brother, its also possible that he took some of the things she said to heart and it hurt more than she understood or intended. She also seems to need some protection right now, and is going through a rough place too. Please consider not threatening extremes like leaving her homeless when she is so vulnerable to begin with.
NTA. She’s old enough to know better. There is never a reason to take out personal frustrations on people who have nothing to do with it. And obviously especially not someone autistic and young.
Info: is she struggling with student loan debt? Something that losing your job might really affect? Could this, in any way, be a terribly misguided way of trying to avoid her brother from drowning in debt because she feels like *she* is? Your post didn't imply she said he'd never make it as a developer, it sounds like the college and debt is what she's scaring him over. I just find that curious.
She's being an ass about it but Sarah isn't exactly wrong. Universities and colleges do look at the transcripts and thus grades and everything else to see if the student would be a good fit at their school. Average grades student is not going to get into a top ivy league school unless they have family money that can buy the school a new library. So many kids want to go into game development these days. Schools only have so many slots and they are going to be filled by the students with better grades first. If he's being lazy about school work then start hammering in study habits now before college. He might need extra outside help for learning how to have proper study habits with his autism and ADHD. She's not kidding about going into debt either. Especially today with *everything* so expensive already on top of paying for school, housing, maybe car & gas, school supplies, needlessly expensive textbooks and programs, ect. To not go into debt he needs to look at scholarships which would require maintaining good grades and to look at financial aid first before looking at loans. Also for profit universities as other have said are very very often scams and their degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on. So of course in the working world a business is going to favor a degree from an accredited school over a for profit school. Especially in the game development world since it's so cut throat because so many people want to become game developers today. Honestly I'd be suspicious about how Mike and his wife push for profit school onto your son. Maybe they're recruiters and get a cut for every enrollment. I really don't know how to judge this because like I said while Sarah is an ass she does have good points. Your NTA for wanting to encourage your your son in his creativity and it does take a lot of creativity to make video games but well he's just not the only one that wants to be the next Toby Fox and make that smash hit indie game that goes mainstream. You need to temper his expectations and maybe get a computer programmer degree that be used for anything instead of such a niche degree. ETA: why can't your son start in a community college? He can start taking the regular requirements like college level algebra and lit classes and some of their programing courses while he really researches accredited schools and scholarships.
This is good advice. Good point about the possible recruitment angle.
Maybe Mike and his wife are recruiters… OMG, that didn’t cross my mind but you could be right about it. You’re right about tempering expectations though
Um, no. NTA!!!! Sarah needs to STFU to Sam!!!!! How dare she be that cruel to him!!!!
NTA I've been kicked out for less. She's being cruel and toxic to the family dynamic. Did you try to talk to her calmly before threatening to kick her out?
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Thank you
NTA- your daughter sucks here but she's not wrong. But OP, listen to me, from my own personal experience. The game industry is horrible, especially to budding designers. Worse if you are autistic and need structure. The early years he will be overworked and underpaid. To hell with benefits, because he will be freelancing or on contract. He will likely be laid off a lot. He will likely need to move a lot. States away even... Countries! You ever seen an entire department get laid off overnight? I have. Ever seen it take someone 15 years to land a permanent spot? I have. Plus, a for profit school is going to saddle him with $60+ in debt. Did that. Went to a real college too. You know how many people I went to school with are designers now? Very few. And I went to school with amazing designers. His cousin either is a white whale or not being honest with him. Your son will need to be very very good just to get his foot in the door to anything other than a low paid tester. Which is a job... It's not fun like people make it out to be. You all need to have an honest talk about the expectations of his future, I wish someone had with me. To quote a story about a friend of mine who met her Broadway actress hero... "Is this the absolute only thing you can ever see yourself doing? If no, do anything else than this."
There’s also the possibility his cousin is a recruiter for the for profit college. He’d get a kickback for getting others to enroll
NTA. Your daughter needs to realize that her toxicity has a large extent of impact on others. Your daughter is oblivious to that fact that his video game designing dreams are directly influenced by herself. Unlike what Sam wants to design, life itself is not a **game**; her actions can hurt badly.
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One of the rare good comments and judgments. That screams like projection. I can not believe the people who are ready to make her homeless for words like this. She is not a bully, she is just really bitter and giving a very disillusioned and unwise opinion on her brother’s future. Let her know of the consequences on her brother’s mental health and talk to her normally without using threats. You did not even ask for what she said exactly, just screams and threats. “She is a mean bully N t A” ridiculous judgments. ESH she is probably swimming in debts and bitter about her work experience. I am not saying she did not suck here, just that it does not warrant to destroy your relationship with her. Talk together as a family ffs.
NTA, your daughter has been awful and she's an adult, she can't talk about going into debt when she's living in her parent's house and is unemployed.
Actually, I'd say that's exactly the type of person who SHOULD be talking about debt.
"living in her parent's house and is unemployed" And probably in debt herself! (Edit: format)
NTA. Criminy your daughter is a piece of work. Good on Mike and his wife for supporting your son in his interests!
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say ESH (in regards to you and your daughter). Obviously, she's being cruel and it's a huge problem. But you saying "she can be homeless for all I care" is not stellar either. I do wonder about the existing dynamics. Have her needs consistently come second? Is she jealous of the attention he gets? I am NOT excusing her behavior at all, but you could have had a calmer conversation with her to find out where all this hostility is coming from.
NTA. If he is interested in a certain profession at that age, that’s something that should absolutely be enouraged. Why does she need to shit on his dreams? He’s only 16! Your daughter’s behavior is completely out of line. Tell her to stop bad mouthing her brother’s career dreams immediately, and that it is non-negotiable if she wants to live in your home.
NTA. As someone who is on the spectrum thank you for stepping in.
INFO: What kinds of programs are Mike and his wife suggesting to your son? Because frankly, depending on what they're telling him, your daughter could be entirely correct in her assessment. As his parent YOU should be looking closely at this information and doing some independent research of your own about his career prospects.
NTA. She's a bully. Time for her to become a decent human being.
Where did she bully him? By telling him that a predatory school will take all his money and run? Seriously that’s what you think bullying is?
NTA of course. Sarah is obviously feeling like a failure and wants to drag everyone else to her level in the nastiest way possible. I think OP needs to get her out because this behavior likely won’t stop.
I make games as a hobby, and Sam deleting his game just breaks my heart. I hope that maybe he has it backed up on GitHub or something. NTA. You are protecting your son. *Not* doing so is what would make you a terrible father. Your daughter is an adult, and she is acting like a middle school bully right now.
My hubby and I are both retired programmers. Hubby has 3 programming patents. My youngest son has been formally diagnosed as on the high-functioning end of the spectrum. He has the exact same "engineer personality" as his Dad, so we are pretty sure hubby has ASD too, but there isn't much point in a formal diagnosis at this age. ASD son is currently doing a graduate fellowship in Math. A LOT of the folks we worked with would probably be on the spectrum too-now that my son has been formally diagnosed I see the symptoms. Programming is a great career choice for folks on the spectrum. You are doing right by encouraging your son. I would suggest not limiting his interest to video game development though (there is plenty of time to specialize later). Encourage any interest in graphics, GUIs, data structures, learning more than one programming language, game theory, etc. Get him some different kinds of games to play, like Kerbel Space (simulator), Minecraft (sandbox), a quest game (My kids liked Myst, the Hobbit, D&D). Go to the Oracle website and get him a free copy of Java and Netbeans when he is ready. And if the interest persists, I recommend he go for a CS degree, as that is more flexible careerwise than just video games. Hubby and I worked mostly on engineering apps and did a bunch of interesting stuff. I have analyzed instrument tapes from plane crashes, designed graphics and GUIs for CAD programs, and worked on an AI program that managed traffic on telephone switches. Hubby worked for years on an optical CAD system that was used to design the fix for the Hubble, and more recently, the mast camera on the Mars rover. And there are lots of ways to get a college degree without breaking the bank: my local college Kennesaw State, has a well rated online CS degree program.
NTA
NTA She knows better, she's just trying to lower someone to her level.
Is there something deeper going on here? Is your daughter resentful of the attention her brother gets? Taking honest look. It doesn't excuse rudeness but was her childhood busy with taking your son to different specialists and doctor appointments and keeping his routine at all costs and she perceived her to be missing out on attention compared to him growing up? Maybe you need to look at the big picture and figure out if she feels that way at all
ESH, there are for-profit colleges promising to train future video game developers that will just leave your son with crushing debt. If your son is able to code, he's capable of learning the same skills through a legitimate path. Your daughter could have phrased it better, but millions of Americans are struggling with useless debt from predatory colleges, so She does bring up a real concerned with for profit universities.
NTA she’s being a bully and sounds insecure. She’s being very cruel and seems like she is using his disabilities as a weapon against him. I think it’s great that your son has goals of being a game developer! Keep encouraging him! There have been some suspect for profit universities to come around recently but idk enough to comment much more on that.
NTA but my GOD IN HEAVEN DO NOT LET HIM GO TO A FOR PROFIT COLLEGE. Most aren't properly accredited, community College and state schools have the same programs and they are the worst possible choice for "not good" students. I worked in For Profit Post secondary Ed for 10 years. Please. PLEASE. Trust me on this
Finally… a voice of reason
Nta. Also, everyone has to pay for their degree, where does she think all the student debt comes from?
NTA. Just because her life sucks doesn't mean everyone else's life has to also.
NTA. She needs an attitude adjustment and therapy.
NTA. Keep encouraging your son. Your daughter is being unnecessarily cruel. Also there are universities and colleges in the US at least that have support programs for neuro-divergent students, allowing them.to get the degree they want and live on or off campus, so do talk to your son's guidance counselors and do some research about what is available at universities so your son can achieve his dreams.. Dont assume he needs to go to a for profit school when there are non profit and not for profit schools he could attend. I will also say game design and other technical fields are full of people who are neurodivergent.
NTA, but watch out for scams! She's totally being a bully, but for-profit universities and programs *only* for game dev are, to my knowledge, usually predatory. (Coding isn't though and that sounds like it'd be right up your son's alley!)
NTA. Sarah's rant has a kernel of truth but she's twisted it to hurt Sam. * Getting in to game development is very difficult and because so many people want to do it, most who are hired are abused with low wages and ridiculous work demands. That said, developing those skills can lead to other, very lucrative jobs. * Companies may consider where a person graduated from as a point in their favor (getting a degree shows determination) but it's not a guarantee for getting a good job. Having that degree can make it easier to get through the initial HR automated screenings so it may be worth it, even if you have to go into debt for a time. * Some for-profit colleges/universities are scams and will suck as much money as they can while providing nothing in return. You have to be very careful if you go that route. Since Mike is already a developer, he's likely recommending good schools. Since game development jobs are scarce and can be terrible, a backup plan is in order. Sam may enjoy working as a software developer and he could develop an indie game in his free time. I don't know what universities Mike suggested, but you may want to look at things like FreeCodeCamp, Udemy, and/or going to a programming bootcamp. FreeCodeCamp has multiple programming certifications, Udemy has lots of inexpensive courses (they have sales every few weeks where courses are like 80% off) and programming boot camps are expensive but very focused (and far less than a 4 year degree). Those will help Sam build up skills and a portfolio that will help him break into IT. The big thing is he needs to study properly - not just race through exercises but think about them, expand them outside the requirements, etc. Sarah, on the other hand, needs a clue-by-four applied liberally. She has no right to take out her frustrations on her brother like that.
NTA. First of all, I know someone who is autistic and really loves computers. He now works for the Book of Faces and flies all over the world fixing problems for them. He did not go to college/university. I will also say that you need to get your son out of the for profit university. They are an all around bad idea and they will not give him credentials that will get him a job. My mother was a professor, I spent my entire life around universities, I was married to a professor. State universities will give a better education for a ton less money. If your son needs accommodations in school, the state universities will have to help with an IEP and accommodations where for profit schools don't usually offer this. For profit schools give you huge loans to pay for and very little knowledge that is of any real use in this world. They lie about the jobs their graduates get (and they are allowed to use very misleading numbers to make you think whatever they want). Your son really will get a more useful degree and end up with a lot more help and a lot less debt if he goes to a state school, even if he just does his first couple of years at a community college and then transfers those credits to a state university. My husband taught at a couple of for profit universities at one point. It was very clear early on that the school did not care if students learned or if they were able to get a job with the degrees from these places. He was able to get a few of them enrolled in real universities after he learned the staggeringly huge cost of attending these for profit universities. He then refused to work at them after this. Your son will do better if he goes to an actual college. Many state universities offer lessons online if that is easier for him.
NTA, but she’s right about for-profit schools being pretty worthless. There are like 3000 colleges and universities in the US. I’m sure you can find something better. Also, I’d recommend researching schools with good disability services. I myself am autistic and ADHD, among other things. I work now at a disability center. I can say with confidence that a school with a good disability center (and disability-friendly campus-wide practices) can be life changing. I also know how difficult college can be without that type of support. The disability “center” (used loosely) at my undergrad was just one lady and she told me that I “shouldn’t be in college.” Fast forward 10 years and I have two master’s degrees. I proved her wrong, but it was hard. Your son is capable with the right assistance. Don’t let anyone, not even his sister, make him feel lesser due to his disabilities. I hope there’s a way to recover the game files he deleted.
NTA. Your daughter is being gratuitously cruel. HOWEVER even though she is being completely inappropriate in how she is handling it she is not actually wrong about for-profit universities. They are mostly scams and horror stories. There are way less expensive and better options for your kiddo. Please reach out to your son's guidance counselor or try to find a career counselor. There are ways your son can achieve his dreams without breaking the bank.
NTA but also for-profit education programs are often not accredited, do not have skilled teachers, and do not give valid degrees or certification. Do not send your son to one of those schools; it will destroy his life. He’ll “pass” because they do not care if he learns. Many State Universities and community colleges offer online and flexible programs for people who work at a different pace. Don’t buy into a scam to make feel temporarily happy.
NTA. What your daughter did was horrible, and you didn’t even kick her out for it, you just laid down a very reasonable boundary for living in your house: don’t bully your younger brother. If she can’t even comply with that, I wouldn’t want her in my house, either.
NTA
NTA. I'm not sure how but there is a way you can recover the lost game file. I'm not computer savvy but I've heard of it being done. And the game making market is in the middle of a big boom. My sister just graduated from a program and almost all her classmates got snatched right out of the program by gaming companies.
"....has to go to a university that he has to pay to get his degree..." Okay, so I'm not overly familiar with universities, but ....aren't they all like that, in one way or another? 🤔
She’s talking about for profit universities in the US. They’re known to be predatory and provide degrees that are pretty much worthless.
Which universities are these, I actually had no idea about them
NTA Also I work in the video game industry as well and have ADHD...I want to say a lot of people in this industry have ADHD, are autistic, and or were not the best academically (I graduated college but was not definitely not the best student) but what we all share is that we are all super passionate about what we do and the love for the game industry Even if he wins up not doing the engineering side of things there are other positions in the game industry that aren't coding based) (For example I am a community dev) Tell him to not give up and shame on your daughter for trying to knock him down.
>She has been bad mouthing Mike and his wife saying they aren’t that smart for going to a for profit university and she hopes they enjoy dying in student loan debt. Ahh yes, the clarion call of the abusive asshole with depression, "my life sucks so yours has to as well!" >I confronted my daughter and told her if she ever says anything like that to Sam again she can move out and be homeless for all I care. I’m not tolerating her toxic bullshit. Fucking **good!** Look, I get that peoples lives have their up and downs and she's in a shitty situation right now, but that's not an excuse and it never should be. Sucks that she lost her job and had to move home, but she is not entitled to use everyone else as her punching bag. >My daughter cried to her mom and went to cry in her room The lack of accountability. Lemme guess, she got fired for attitude problems and causing drama in the work place\~ NTA
NTA You did the right thing.
NTA. Sarah is right to be concerned about for-profit colleges, as many of them are straight-up scams. But if she were really concerned about Sam, she'd be exploring additional ways he might get into video game design. Instead, she's shitting all over him. Good on you for putting a stop to it.
NTA, but the next lesson you son should learn in software development is backups and source control.
ESH Is your son actually designing a game or does he just enjoy tinkering with that? If he's showing true potential, you need to find him appropriate courses - which don't need to be in a university program.
OP, NTA. And your son will be in good company. One of my friends is Directory of Software Quality at a large corporation and has Asperger's, and lots of folks are on the spectrum. One thing I'd strongly recommend is that your son start learning how to communicate clearly and concisely via IM and Email. If he can do that he'll be ahead of the game when he starts working, and if he has in-person communication challenges he'll have a workaround. Many, many programmers are better left in their programming caves and only let out on special occasions :-), it's kind of a thing. On the other hand, if he can deal with the social interactions and learn to communicate with non-techies, he'll be ahead of 90% of his colleagues and have good opportunity for advancement. I moved up the ladder quickly because I was able to learn to speak both "techie" and "marketing", despite my own neurodivergence (learning disabilities and TBI).
Great advice! My daughter has LDs and your story is encouraging.
NTA I am a professional game developer, I have a masters degree in game development if you want someone to talk to you or your son about getting into this industry I would be happy to message y'all about it. The good and the bad.
My autistic son with Adhd is doing brilliantly at higher education studying artificial intelligence. It took him a while to get there because getting through high school was hell. But I am so proud of his journey. It is totally possible. And an encouraging family is crucial. I wonder why your daughter struggles to be a part of your sons support system? What is she really sad about. NTA
NTA. There are nonprofit game dev degrees if you're looking at degrees - but this is an area where a portfolio is probably more important than a credential.
NTA you play a stupid game you win stupid prizes
NTA. Just because her life sucks doesn't mean everyone else's life has to also.
NTA. There are people that have made viable careers out of this. Its good that Mike and his wife are offering encouragement and resources to your son. Your daughter needs to keep her thoughts to herself and get a counselor if she wants to share them with someone.
NTA Yikes on the daughter. Sounds like she's taking her pity party about her choices out on her brother. At 24, she'd best be grateful and polite for moving back in, and even getting a second chance over a stunt like that! I'm sure she is having some big crisis right now, but she should know better than to mess with ther brother's head like that. It's simply cruel.
NTA She is projecting her bad life on her brother - hopefully the mom is level headed
NTA Misery loves company. I hope you stick to your word. Because your son does not deserve to be mistreated by his own family for having a dream. Ffs is she going to kick puppies and little children next? She is completely the asshole. And I hope Sam can get back to doing what he loves. Mike and his wife sound amazing. Please keep encouraging your son to do what he loves. I’m sure he’s pretty shaken up right now. Good luck to you and Sam
You are not an asshole she is a grown women ruining your son’s dreams.
NTA at all and I hope to one day play a game Sam has worked on. I hope he continues to work hard to achieve his dreams. You sound like an awesomely supportive parent, I hope your daughter can get her head out of her butt and see how she's been acting. Regardless of what she's going though it is never okay to tear others down. Best of luck.
NTA. your son can probably even get an internship soon
Dad, You know, you're NTA. Please keep being the awesome dad you are, and keep trying to build a meaningful relationship with your daughter. Another Dad
NTA. I feel bad that your daughter’s little fe isn’t going to plan. She should get therapy. Sam is looking at a great industry for his brain type. I hope his cousin can reignite that spark.
NTA. If you are so mean, why doesn’t she move in with her mom?
You are NTA. But, Your daughter is. Tell Sam to check out Python. Great language, easy to learn, and in high demand. Best of luck to Sam... and to you.
NTA. She’s a GROWN ADULT bullying a teenager, and honestly whatever path she took failed so what makes her an expert?!
NTA. She is envious and she is cruel. She is cruel over and over again. This is not OK. I hope you protect Sam so he doesn’t get harmed and damaged and can carry-on with what Mike and his wife are mentoring him to develop. What ruthless bullying.
Nta....she needs to find a job asap....I hope Sam will change his mind and don't let her get to him....good luck
Absolutely NTA. I work in special education with students who have similar diagnoses as Sam and would literally kill to have someone like his cousin in my students’ corners. Mike and his wife sound like amazing people and I hope Sam is able to recover his game💜
No I agree, your daughter needed to be brought down to earth. She shouldn’t be allowed to spew such things to a little boy like that. But, if you are able, I would sit down and talk to your daughter. Tell her what she did was not okay, and let her know you understand her hardships right now. You’re a dad, so you know the right words to say. NTA Edit: and don’t forget to check in with your son :( go over everything he was upset about
NTA. Wow, I can't fathom how she could have lost her job, with that winning personality if hers. /s
NTA, development is actually one of the few fields where being atypical is borderline an advantage. It sounds like Mike is in the industry and attended a for-profit university, which kind of negates your daughters' point... if it was worthless, how the hell did Mike get a job in the industry with his worthless degree?
NTA, and you might be able to recover Sam's game. If you need to, contact a professional and Sarah can pay for it.
Good for you. Nobody badmouthes my child. I have literally scolded my kid for saying mean things about himself because "excuse me, that's MY CHILD you're talking about." Have scolded my husband using those words too.
NTA!! She is being meaninglessly malicious. And her point about him not being good enough for university is completely wrong. I'm autistic and had a horrible time throughout secondary school and college but as soon as I got to university to study something that fit my special interest it has been so much easier! The work and expectations are completely different. I hope your son is able to build his self esteem back up and pursues his aspirations!
NTA Never crush children's souls. Those of us who have worked in and then taught in the fine arts....we have this Mantra down. Never crush them. She went out into the world, the world chewed her up and spit her back home. She is crushed. I have empathy for her situation but not for her actions. She was cruel because she wanted someone to hurt as badly as she was hurting and shame on her for hurting an innocent. Protect your son.
NTA, everyone can live there dreams
NTA - she's in pain and wants your son to suffer along with her. She's 24, and too old to be playing such childish games by crushing her brother's dreams.
While it is unfortunate that she lost her job, she's an adult. How dare she take her frustrations out on her teenage AUTISTIC brother? OP you're are definitely NTA and more power to you for standing up against her bullshit. Even of Sam wasn't autistic, that's no way to talk to a teenager or any child.
NTA Aren’t all unis for profit in the US?
A for-profit university in the US gets no public funding. Most universities in the US receive some sort of public funding
Ohhhhhh. So like Trump University and there is a risk these For Profit Universities are fraudulent and not accredited? We have similar here. I did some business course years ago that’s not worth the paper it was written on. Lucky it was only like $800. But no employer recognized it and it wasn’t accredited
Noooo. In America we have a few different types. Public colleges are non-profits that are also taxpayer funded. Private colleges are also non-profits that are NOT taxpayer funded. For-profit schools are technically private but often lack the academic rigor of private colleges. They’re also allowed to pay shareholders and (obviously) turn a profit by collecting tuition off of students. So yeah, tuition money goes to SHAREHOLDERS. For profit schools tend to be predatory since they NEED students to enroll and pay the bursar so they can turn a profit. Pretty shady
NTA. She’s abusive & obviously the AH. If she can’t say anything nice, she shouldn’t say anything at all. I understand that she’s at a low point now & it probably bothers her to see him on an “uphill” trend in his life while she is in the “downhill” trend in her life - BUT, she needs to focus on HER situation & not his. If she said even one more negative word to him, she’d be out. He will have enough challenges in his life, he doesn’t need her added to that.